Andor - S02E08 - Who Are You?

[00:00:00] Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your 6. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[00:00:27] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our Squadron leaders, Alicia, David and Jon. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our Season Pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone, except Darth Vader.

[00:00:55] Echo Squadron reporting in. May the Force be with you.

[00:01:41] Hello, Gore sympathizers. Welcome to the Rebellion. I'm Alicia, and this is the Lorehounds coverage of Season 2 of Andor. We've got a squadron set up going on so that we can cover each episode individually, despite the triple drop each week. Episode 7 this week was Django Squadron with Jon and Jon. And today, Episode 8 of the second season, Who Are You? Echo Squadron, that's piloted by me, Alicia.

[00:02:10] And my co-pilot for this week is a Wool Shift Dust crossover event. Welcome, Luke. It's very nice to be here. I like to think of this whole coverage of Andor as Lorehounds Assemble. I've already put in the Discord chat that I'm dibs on Hawkeye and your dibs on Scarlet Witch, apparently. Absolutely, absolutely. So we need to know what are the other hosts, which Avengers are the other hosts.

[00:02:37] And Episode 9 this week is covered by Delta Squadron, which is David with Aaron from Radioactive Ramblings. There's also lots of little extras coming for subscribers and Season Pass holders. There's a Rebel Squadron radio timeline briefings, Holocron lorecast this week about Yavin 4, the location of the Rebel base, and also deep dives into key technology and Rebel strategy and things like that.

[00:03:04] So the spoiler policy, Luke, do you want to rattle off the spoiler policy for the sake of the usual Wool Shift Dust format? Yeah, just to keep things regular. So we are allowed to spoil all things Star Wars up to and including Episode 8 of Series 2 of Andor, but we're not going to talk about Episode 9, so we're not going to talk about the third episode in this particular block of episodes.

[00:03:34] I haven't even watched Episode 9 yet because I was kind of paranoid that I'd forget what was in what episode. So I decided it was easier not to watch it at all until after we've recorded this podcast. Yeah, I mean, I guess the good thing about this week is that our episode is so focused that it is clear to me what this is. Yeah, it's so you okay. You are my Wool Shift Dust co-host.

[00:04:03] So people will be most used to hearing us talk about Silo or Beacon 23 or just dipping our toe into Dune. I swear once Andor is over. But yeah, you are also your background. You are a military historian. Did I say it correctly this time? Yes. Yeah, I am a military historian. My focus is on the 19th century to the present day. Okay.

[00:04:29] So this was an interesting episode to watch from that point of view. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, that's why I wanted you to be my co-host in the third week in particular, because I knew based on the lore that this was going to happen this week. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah. What are your thoughts on, since we haven't heard from you yet, what do you think about the show so far? And then we'll talk about this episode. But what do you think about everything leading up to here? I really like Andor as a series.

[00:04:59] I think it goes to show the flexibility of the Star Wars universe and the sort of sandbox that George Lucas created. That you can have something like Andor, which is, I think, more adult focused, more complicated, certainly a darker show in tone. And yet that can live alongside something like Skeleton Crew, which is, I think, much more family oriented. Yeah.

[00:05:29] Much more playful. Yeah. Or if not out now, a kids show. And yet... It's very much for adults, I think. Okay. And yet they are both equally valid as Star Wars shows. And what I love about Andor is, there has not been, and I don't think there will be, a single lightsaber or a single explicitly referenced Force user. Ah, we did last episode.

[00:05:59] Well, yeah, maybe. Mm-hmm. And yet... And there should be. And there should be, because this is explicitly a project designed to lead into one of the most beloved series, which again, Rogue One, it doesn't emphasize Force use. We do have Vader and Leia show up at the end. But Rogue One was also designed to explicitly lead into the original movie.

[00:06:20] And also in Rogue One, it is about, although it's not about like Jedi, it's about the Force users of a different kind, you know, the spectrum of Force use. So this Force healer we got in the last episode really fits into that. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, continue.

[00:06:36] But I think it's really impressive how authentically Star Wars is, even though it's missing, you know, parts of the cap, parts, things that you would canonically associate with Star Wars. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the final thing I'd say is, I love how they are distinguishing all the different worlds. Mm-hmm. And I heard you guys talk about Chandrilla the other week, and I think it's equally true for Gorm. Yeah.

[00:07:04] These feel like properly, fully fleshed out civilizations with their own languages, their own customs, their own environments. Well, I said that Gorman would be the, I would not want to live in Chandrilla, but I would want to live in Gorman is what I said. Well, I don't think you'd be able to after this episode. Well, yeah. Let's jump back a few decades. Where in the galaxy, far, far away, would you most want to live?

[00:07:33] I think Coruscant, to be honest. Okay. Yeah. I think Coruscant. Yes, it's obviously, it's one big city. It's also like the galactic capital, but it seems where, it seems like where all the action is. It seems like it, it seems like it would be a fun, maybe actually thinking about it, maybe more of a fun place to visit than to live. Mm-hmm. But I think that's the first place I'd go in the Star Wars universe. Hmm. Okay. I'm very much with Cyril's mom.

[00:08:02] Coruscant is, is the center of the action. That's true. It is true. What are your hot takes on this episode in particular? Oh, Dedra and Cyril. Hmm. The Romeo and Juliet of the Empire. Mm-hmm. Just, it breaks my heart. It, it, it, and I'm not, I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. It really did hit me right in the gut. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:29] Because when you get to the end of series one and they kind of end up together, I think you and I were on the same page of going, this is a little bit weird. This is a little bit weird. This is a little bit icky. Hmm. Well, I didn't find it as icky as other people, but I also have been more of a Cyril sympathizer from the beginning. And yet, and yet, these two, these two wounded. Crazy kids. Yeah. Birds.

[00:08:54] These two wounded, damaged people seem to bring out the best in each other. And I'll talk about, I'll talk about Denise Goff's performance as Dedra Mio as we go through the episode. Cause I think she is, I mean, everybody is good in this series, but I think she is the MVP. I think Denise Goff is doing something really remarkable with that character. Okay. Okay.

[00:09:22] Um, so you and I are most famously often talking about Silo. I see a lot of similarities between Andor and Silo just in terms of they're both ostensibly science fiction series that are actually quite grounded and are really, they, they're raison d'etre is to talk about, uh, to talk about oppression. And yeah. Yeah. What do you, what comparisons would you draw?

[00:09:51] I think, I think, I think that, yeah, they're, they're, they're, yeah, they're stories that talk about, um, oppression and they're stories that talk about the, the malleable nature of truth and reality as well, which I think in this episode comes across, uh, really strongly.

[00:10:11] And they're also, I think shows written and designed to get the audience to think in terms of, yes, they're there to sort of tell us, tell us story, but they are also, I think this is probably a bit more true for Andor than Silo. So they are explicitly allegories, I think.

[00:10:31] I like to talk about this as we go through the episode, but there's a lot of history being very explicitly brought into and placed front and center of Andor, particularly, I think this episode. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So, uh, on Mool Shifftest, we have the Juliet to Simsnard scale, which is for anyone who's not familiar. It's basically like, uh, from the most moral character. I'm not convinced that Juliet's the most moral character, but the most moral character to the least moral character.

[00:11:00] What is the Andor version of the Juliet to Simsnard scale? See, I'm not sure anybody really qualifies for the Juliet and Simsnard scale, but like. What about Mon Mothma? Pardon? What about Mon Mothma? Even Mon Mothma, like she's still prepared to countenance the murder of her best friend. Mm hmm.

[00:11:21] She's, she's, um, she's basically using her husband as, she's basically using her husband as cover for her rebel activities. Um, she's, um, she's hip deep, um, involved with Luthen, who is probably one of the most, one of the most evil characters I would argue in the show. Evil? Wow. Yeah, no, I would. Okay. Um, and we'll, and I think we'll get, I think we'll get, get to, to why.

[00:11:50] Well, we won't talk about Luthen this episode, so. Yeah, they did. I think we'll get, actually, yeah, no, it was the previous episode, but that, that conversation he was having with, uh, Cassian about where Cassian's basically pointing out that the Gorn aren't in any way ready to launch a rebellion. Mm hmm. And Luthen goes, basically, I don't care. I want the, I want the empire to come in and crush them. That's the point. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:12:19] Um, and yeah, so I, I mean, this is the thing. So is Luthen going on the Simsnard end of the scale? Oh, definitely. Because the, okay. What about Saw or what about like Partagaz? Uh, I think Partagaz is right out there. He is like on, he's like, he's gone off the end of the Simsnard. Um, I don't know, I don't know what to, I don't know what to think about, um, Saul, cause he's just so weird and out there.

[00:12:49] And like huffing, huffing whatever that gas is, basically. Yeah. Um, Rydonium. But yeah, so my, um, opinions of Saw are more informed by other things where he is just, he is, you know, when you talk about freedom fighter versus terrorist, he is firmly on the terrorist end of it. And I am frequently frustrated, um, with him at other points, not as, not in like Andor or Rogue One. I think he's maybe mellowing out.

[00:13:19] This is toward, this is the end of his life, you know? But, uh, he, he's been real annoying in the past with how violent he gets and messes things up because of it. Also, like, have you ever seen the film called The Last King of Scotland where Forrest Whitaker is playing Idi Amin? Yes. Like, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of that performance of Idi Amin and the way Forrest Whitaker plays Saul Guerrero as well. That film haunts me. Yeah. Also James McAvoy's performance. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:48] Okay. So what is your favorite Andor plot line so far this season and overall?

[00:13:53] Um, I think my favorite plot line is all the, uh, all the politicking in the Empire and the ISB and between Krennic and, uh, Pardigast and just, just seeing how the Empire works day to day and just seeing how much of it is a reflection of like Sith ideology without everybody in it necessarily knowing that, that Palpatine is, um,

[00:14:24] as a Sith. It's just, I, I like the way I think Tony Gilroy and the writers have done a really good job of thinking, well, how would the Empire actually function day to day? Yeah. Like how would it actually work? Mm-hmm. And like there's, and like clearly they have gone away and read a lot of history.

[00:14:46] I think particularly about the, particularly about the Nazis and particularly about the Soviet Union under Stalin. Mm. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I just, you know, if people have listened to our coverage of Silo, you'll know we like the politics. We like the, the, the, the intrigue and the backbiting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:10] No, I really feel blessed, honestly, like, uh, gifted to be able to talk about this episode of television. I think it's one of the most powerful episodes that we'll, we'll see this year for better or worse, because it is, you know, I was telling you, I watched, I rewatched it before we recorded and had a little cry, nice and cathartic. Um, but it's, it's a really intense 45 minutes of television. Um, yeah, it really is.

[00:15:40] It's really focused on one location and plot and does it justice. So I think that that was definitely the right way to go. Um, I loved, I mean, the tone was set immediately when it opens with that gore language dirge of sorts. Yeah. And, and you, I think you described the, the gore language on blue sky as sounding Germanic. It always sounds more French to me. Well, it's both.

[00:16:07] So there's, uh, in previous episodes, I've talked about, um, how there's a low gore, which is called Dixian. And I think that is more Germanic. Um, and like, for example, the first time we heard it, when the spies were speaking, I think they were speaking that version. And there's also a high gore, which I think we first heard in that first meeting that Cyril attended. And that version is, um, it's that one's more based on French. Yeah. So, yeah.

[00:16:34] And they have, they hired all French actors, but yeah, we talked about, uh, that in prior episodes more. If anyone's curious, um, this, this whole Gorman massacre was a plot that the Gilroy's inherited from the lore. It's one of like the things are like, okay, you're going to do a story leading into rogue one. You have to address this Gorman massacre that's in the lore, but hasn't been fleshed out.

[00:17:00] So basically, uh, there was more, a lot more talk about this in one of the holocron episodes on the supercast and patron feeds. But in the legends version of the lore, there was something that's now being called the Tarkin massacre where Tarkin landed his ship on a bunch of people in the central square of the city. And, um, yeah, killed them obviously.

[00:17:22] And so that used to be called the Gorman massacre, but then rebels, the animated series, they, uh, have, they told this whole story. This story we saw this week from an, in what is it? Oh, I'll tell you. It's episode 18 of season three, where, um, we see events that play out later this week from a different perspective. Basically that's the events that play out in the next episode from a different perspective.

[00:17:50] And Mon Mothma makes reference to the Gorman massacre and talks about it. And so they had to fill this in. And so what they decided to do is that prior legends Gorman massacre, um, that was set in 18 BBY. So one year after revenge of the Sith one year after the, you know, the empire took hold, uh, that's now being called a Tarkin massacre. And that's Tarkin planting a ship on a bunch of people. And then they still had front in the lore, this Gorman massacre to talk about.

[00:18:19] So this is what we're now seeing play out. So it's a big, a big moment for, for the lore hounds. I'll say. Um, let's get into the episode breakdown. So again, and this is, uh, season two, episode eight. Who are you? Uh, that title, by the way, is like the most devastating line of the episode as a Cyril fan. Yeah. I just, and also it was very much a callback, a callback to Rogue One.

[00:18:49] Because Krennic says the same thing to, oh, what's her name? Stardust. Oh, Felicity. Jyn Erso? Yeah, Jyn Erso. He says exactly the same thing to Jyn Erso. When they're out on the little, um, platform and she's beaming the, the plans of the, to the Death Star up. Oh, okay. Yeah. He says, he says that exact same line in the exact same way that Cassian says it. Um, to Jyn Erso. Oh, okay.

[00:19:19] Yeah. Oh, Cassian needs to be briefed better. Yeah. Um, so the director of this whole block of episodes was Janice Metz. And the writer of this whole block was Dan Gilroy, who is Tony Gilroy's, the, you know, show creator runner's, uh, brother. And, uh, Dan Gilroy also wrote the Aldani arc last season, episodes four through six. Um, he also wrote Kong Skull Island, which is my favorite monster verse movie.

[00:19:49] And he wrote and directed Nightcrawler, which is an excellent movie. Did you see either of those? I did see, uh, Kong Skull Island. I thought it was, I thought it was really, really good popcorn, potboiler, uh, summer movie. I, I, I, he's Nightcrawler, the one with, uh, Jake Gyllenhaal. Yes. As a reporter. Yeah. I've seen the trailer for that. I haven't seen that. I haven't actually watched it. It's a very good movie. It's a very good movie. Um, and this episode it's set in two BBY.

[00:20:20] So two years before the events of the original movie. And, uh, we're going to be talking about the why part of that BBY in this week's Holocron, uh, which is, uh, an episode that will go out to all supercast and patron subscribers and season pass holders. And, uh, that will be about Yavin, the rebel base. So by their dating system, uh, you would probably call this year 33 of the great resynchronization. And, uh, we're going to be talking through the episode plot arc by plot arc.

[00:20:49] So somewhat out of order that the events happen in the episode. Um, and I have to say this week, I have not gotten a chance to listen to John and John's coverage of episode seven ahead of mine. So sorry if we repeat anything, but then you're getting these ideas from multiple angles. Uh, let's start with Ronnie Gouje checks in. So last episode posing as Ronnie Gouje, Gouje or Gouje, Gouje. Now I don't even know.

[00:21:18] By the way, you could tell Diego Luna was just having the best time doing that, like playing Cassie and playing another role as well. He was having a lot of fun with that. Yeah, this was, I mean, this was a different character than the last time he was a fashion designer. Now he's a reporter from the mid rim network. And, uh, he's checking, he's checked back into the same central Gorman hotel where he stayed a year before to,

[00:21:44] and his goal now is to assassinate Deidre Mira, the ISB agent who's been a thorn in the rebellion side since the start of the show. And he was checked in again by Thiel, the bellhop turned front desk hotel staffer with whom Cassian bonded a year earlier when they were discussing the Tarkin massacre. And Thiel grants Mr. Gouje his request for a room overlooking a central square.

[00:22:10] Uh, this is no longer a popular request because of all the disturbances on the square from clashes between the Imperials and the local Gorman front. Um, and privately Thiel warns Cassian that his colleague would report his presence and unusual requests. So we know they bonded over that talk and they're still allies. And then we see, yeah. Yeah. Is it a promotion to go from bellhop to desk clerk? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:40] I think it's, uh, um, easier job, better pay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least you're not, at least you're not running about so much. Mm hmm. Um, yeah. So later we see, we won't come back to Thiel's plot arc, but we see him blow himself up to take out some storm troopers and, and takes out the hotel lobby as well. So, and he gives Cassian the line rebellions are built on hope.

[00:23:08] And so we hear that line in rogue one Cassian says it to Jyn and she's like, whatever. And then later when Jyn's trying to get the rebellion on her side, she whips that out and she's like, yeah, you biting, you biting. And some of them are like, yeah, some of us are biting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a good, a good line is a good line. Let's reuse it. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's nice to see how they trace, you know, the, the Genesis and per generation

[00:23:36] of ideas, you know, how that, that passes through a population. Although I do wish that we heard more from Nemec and his manifesto this, this season. I feel like Thiel and Nemec would have been besties. Yes. I think they would have gotten on. If, okay. So we, we decided no and or characters are like the most moral, but who would you most want to hang out with? Um, interesting. Interesting.

[00:24:06] Um, I, I quite like, I mean, it wouldn't probably be the most comfortable evening, but I think it would probably be the most interesting evening. I quite like to hang out with Dedra. Okay. I just, I just, I just, I just want to, I just want to like, I think I'd be able, I think I'd be able to help Delisha. I'd be able to fix her. I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got a weird, weird crush on Dedra. Is this like a reverse Punisher situation? Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

[00:24:36] Yeah. Um. I quite like to hang out with Bix as well. I think Bix would be, would be good company. Okay. I mean, I, I love Cyril as a character. I don't think I'm going to hang out with him. I think that would be awkward AF. Oh, you'd end up having to deal with his mother as well. I mean, honestly, I would kind of want to hang out with Luthan a bit, like not necessarily trust him with my life, but like he's an interesting dude. I'm going to hang out with him in his shop. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just have a look down this collection.

[00:25:06] Yeah. Yeah. Talk about all that stuff. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I often like in this show, I think more about hanging out in particular locations. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Like I want their, their little getaway on Yavin 4. Please give that to me. I want to, I want to go to a Chandrilan wedding. I mean, obviously the whole, the whole sort of set up on the politics behind it, fairly horrifying, but let's face it.

[00:25:36] The Chandrilans know how to throw a party. This is true. This is true. Okay. On that note, let's take a really quick break. And when we get back, we're going to talk more about what Cassian gets up to on Gorman. See you in a sec.

[00:26:14] So Cassian finds a very different Gorman than the one he left a year before with Imperials setting up blockades through the square. As he arrives, he checks in with Wilman Pak friend from Ferrix turned Luthun's current embed in the Gorman front. And it turns out that Will's long absences from the rebel base on Yavin 4 might not just be about his continuing work with Luthun, but also his romance with Gorman front member

[00:26:40] Drina, the woman who wandered from her post as the driver last week, inadvertently leading to Sinta's death. So Gorman front member Dylan is confused by Cassian's reports about the blockades going up because they are under the impression that their efforts were having the opposite effect and that the square was being opened up. Cassian says they're building a fortress.

[00:27:09] So yeah, I mean, if you didn't know what we knew was the plan, what would you think was going on when you saw the blockades going up like that? I mean, this is the thing. If you're looking at this from a Gorman perspective, the whole thing is very weird because you've done nothing wrong and yet you must be able to see like the, you know, what the Imperial media is saying about you.

[00:27:37] But you've no idea why they're saying it. And I think what's been really cool when they've been showing the Gorman resistance is A, they've sort of shown a breadth of opinion. So not everybody is reaching for the blasters right away. But also I think they've done a good job of getting across that, that confusion of we've done nothing.

[00:28:03] We're actually, you know, we're actually relatively, you know, we're actually relatively wealthy where we haven't done anything to offend Imperial authority. We're not, you know, they're not rebellious. They're not close to the center of power, but they're relatively rich. They're satisfied. They've got a good little niche in the galactic economy with the spiders and the silk they weave.

[00:28:30] So yeah, I think they've done a really good job of showing just the confusion of the situation from a Gorman perspective. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that this show, they could do even more of it if they had more time, but I like that they show that it's not a solid block of opinion on the empirical side too. And we, and also the layers of deception, like what we'll get to Cyril later, but we have

[00:28:58] this secondary character who you don't even notice much in your first watch. You only register him more in the second watch, Sergeant Bloy. And he's the one who's been given that group of, of young guys who are just like disorganized and untrained and don't know what they're doing. And clearly there's some, like, I don't know what they're like. They were chosen because they were chosen to be sacrificial lambs basically.

[00:29:26] And Sergeant Bloy is not told this because he's told to lead the lambs to slaughter. Just these, these background characters that add extra complexity to just how awful it is what the empire is doing on so many different nuanced levels. Yeah. And I think this, this episode is really, this episode is one of those moments of star, of

[00:29:54] star Wars that brings home to you just how evil the empire actually is because like, you know, I was first introduced to star Wars by watching the empire. I got bought the empire strikes back on VHS for my, for my eighth birthday. And when I watched that the first time I was kind of on, I was kind of on the side of

[00:30:22] the empire because from the point of view, an eight year old, they have the better ships. They have, they have the better music. They have the, they have this, they have the spiffier uniforms. You could tell I was going to be a military historian at the age of eight because I always, always liked a good, a good uniform. And they had a guy that could strangle people just by thinking about it. This is true.

[00:30:48] And like, you know, the rebels are going around in a ship that's broken for like 90% of the film. I'm like, that's my energy, yo. Yeah. So, so yeah, without like thinking through the deeper politics of Star Wars as an eight year old, I was an imperial sympathizer. Well, I mean, you and I talked about this in our silo coverage about how the, the question of obviously there has to be a balance between order and, uh, what justice was the other word

[00:31:18] that we used. No, but I think it's, I think it's with the empire. I think it's slightly different to that. What Star Wars has always been really good at with the empire is the allure of the aesthetics of fascism. So the uniforms, the music, the, the, the, the, the pomp and circumstance. Yeah. The pomp and circumstance of it all. They're very, very good. Like George Lucas.

[00:31:44] And I think particularly, uh, Irving Kirshner in, um, the empire strikes back is very, very good at doing that. I'm very good at making it look seductive. I think that's the, that's the like power of the dark side right there. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Um, so what, what do you think of, by the way, what do you think of the Gorman front as a unit and as individuals?

[00:32:10] Well, I mean, I think this is, this is interesting because I don't think this is, I don't, and then we'll, we'll, we might get into this when we talk about, um, Deidre talking to Prendergast a bit, but I don't think this, the Gorman front was not what Deidre was outlining to Krennic in episode one. No. I think she was talking about something that would, that would be under much tighter

[00:32:39] imperial control. It would be much more of a fake organization and they would be like setting off bombs in places where there was nobody around. And it would be, it would be, uh, it would be, uh, I think what Deidre was talking about was a false flag. I, I mean, I thought that she understood, but I always thought from the beginning that she was uncomfortable with it. And I think we see more in this episode, how uncomfortable she is with the situation as she sees it become reality. But okay, we'll get, we'll get into that. But what about the Gormans?

[00:33:09] But yeah, the Gormans are like, you know, they're like every insurgency in history. They're not professionals. They don't really know what they don't really know what they're doing, but they're highly, but they're highly motivated because they're fighting for their home, their planet, their way of life. And I think what this episode did really well is to show the, the way in which, the way in which violence breeds violence. Hmm.

[00:33:38] So it's, it's, it's action and counteraction all the way through. And the whole point, the whole point about what the empire is doing is it's deliberate, it's deliberately trying to trigger a violent response. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think the, the Gormans fall into the classic trap of responding to, of responding to violence with more violence and the situation gets more and more chaotic from there.

[00:34:06] And I think the reason why the Gormans are always bound to fail is the empire is not fighting a counterinsurgency. It's not trying to impose its will, its policy on the Gorman. It simply wants them got. Yeah. So it's, it's willing to use as much firepower as is necessary to make that happen. Well, they'll tell you the enemy is under every hospital bed. Yeah.

[00:34:32] So the empire isn't trying, isn't trying to, isn't trying to achieve a political objective. It's just trying to move as many people. It's, it's basically ethnic cleansing on a planetary, on a planetary scale. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And, um, and Luthen has embedded Wilman now in this, and I hope the Bela is not waiting for Wil on Mina Rao. Back on space, Iowa. Yeah.

[00:35:01] Mina Rao. Yeah. What'd you call it? Space? Space, Iowa. Space, Iowa. Yeah. With all the corn. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember. I can't remember. All of these planets. Mina Rao. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They all have their own name in my head because I'm useless at remembering stuff. No, that makes, it's a new planet. It's a new planet. It was a cool addition to the lore. But honestly, it has been, he's young and it's been two years since he left her. But I do wonder if they're going to check, well, they have to check back in with, with B2 Emo next week. Right?

[00:35:32] We need resolution to B2 Emo story. Anyway, I hope he's okay. Um, but yeah, so, so Will's moved on. He's now with, um, what's her name? Drina. That was a very public bed that they were snuggling up on. It was, it really was. So we'll see if, um, I don't know if there's a last minute love triangle or if just, that

[00:36:01] was just long, young love forgotten. I hope Bela's moved on. Uh, so, okay. Getting into the Imperial machinations, because I know you want to talk about your girl, uh, inside the Imperial command center on Gorman. Dedra starting to get uneasy again about these plans laid out two years prior at the meeting, at the meeting at the Maltheen divide. Mining ships are starting to show up to see the plans to destroy the planet to fruition.

[00:36:28] And part of gas tells Dedra, they absolutely need all the calcite in the crust of the planet, uh, to coat what will become the death star refractor lenses. Nothing else will do simply. So it's lights out spider textile industry. They just have to make sure to use the media to ensure that the story of Gorman aggression and inexplicable resistance to Imperial norms sticks.

[00:36:56] So yeah, one thing I love about this season is that they have laid out an impressive multi-phasic propaganda plan. Yeah. Yeah, they have. And like, I did like the, um, all the, the correspondents standing in the square doing their pieces, doing their pieces to camera. Um, I also, I love the little tick, um, that Dedra's got whenever she's uncomfortable, she

[00:37:24] starts playing with, she starts playing with a jacket. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I loved though in this scene, um, I, I got chills at the way that they're reporting because, you know, so my background is in journalism and, you know, public relations and, and, and marketing things like that. So it's so recognizable, the spin they're putting on it. And it's not, it's just also so recognizable. It's so convincing.

[00:37:55] I understand. It's so convincing. And, and we see it so much in the way news is presented differently. And, oh, it's just so accurate. Yeah. Uh, and Cyril, we see him pause at the camera and the camera like zooms in on him, uh, from this slightly tilted angle as like this horrific realization is written across his face.

[00:38:23] And that's the moment I was like, oh, I was right about him. Of course he was about to die, but, um, for a moment he, he fully started to grok the horror of what he had helped rot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder, do you think that there are Imperial stockpiling gore fabric because they know it's about to become a rare luxury? Yeah. I saw, I saw that in the notes and it hadn't occurred to me beforehand.

[00:38:53] But of course that's what they're doing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if like the ISB has its own like little private stash of Gorman silk. Um, yeah, of course that's what you do. Twill, sorry. Of course that's what the, with spiders. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, but yeah, of course that's what they're doing. Of course the ISB will have their own little stash of Gorman twill. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:21] And, and the whole part of guys, I think he's, well, you already said he's off the Sims Nard scale, but like his whole response of like bad luck for the Gormans. It was like the Loki meme. Um, when he's talking about worlds disappearing or something, he's like, yes, very sad. Anyway. Anyway. Um, by the way, like I hope Anton Lesser can go away and play somebody nice for a change. Cause the only two roles I've seen him in are this one and as Qyburn in, um, Oh yeah.

[00:39:51] Game of Thrones. Hmm. He's being typecast. Yes. At least they're iconic roles. Yeah, they are. And like he's, and the reason he's being typecast is he's very good at doing the, the English upper class mustache twirling villain. And he's clearly, he's clearly keeping up with the, the long and venerable Star Wars tradition of the bad guys are English upper class. Yeah.

[00:40:21] What do you think is going to be the state of the planet? Do you think we'll check in next week? And what do you think, um, we'll learn about the state of the planet then? Well, they were basically saying in that kind of Vance style conference in episode one, that mining for the cow kite was basically going to make the planet more or less uninhabitable. Um, I think my question is how many Gorman are you actually turning into refugees?

[00:40:48] How many people are you actually, and what kind of effort is the empire making to actually get people off the planet? None, obviously. They were, it seems completely disinterested. They're saving the people or their culture. Or I hope at least like somebody takes, somebody collects as much as they can of like a farm of galactopods and finds a, maybe they can team up with Mina Rao. I bet they could live there. It didn't, it seems temperate.

[00:41:15] And also, but also like that presumably a lot of Gorman will escape because they will have big ships. Yeah. I mean, certainly I'm obviously some of our people are going to get off the planet, but, um, I hope that they can bring as much of their culture with them as possible. And it's so sad to say that, but like, think about Cassian's planet, Canary. Um, he has nothing but childhood memories from there. Nothing to show for him.

[00:41:44] It is just, it was just a barren, uh, mine. Yeah. Wow. Part of gas. He does get the most iconic lines. And he says, dead dress like, sir, I think we might be committing a genocide. She didn't literally say that, but I heard it in her voice. And he's like, you seem animated. Also, I like, you are aware that the rebels have guns. Yeah. We're counting on it. Of course they do. We're counting on it.

[00:42:13] Uh, he is evil. He is evil. Yeah. And this is why I say, I don't think that was, I, I think what happened is Deidre came up with an idea and party gas made it so much worse than what she originally had in mind. Because I sort of understood from what Deidre was saying that she wanted to like stage propaganda in a way that like, I don't know that I believe that, but I don't think she's as, as sinister as other people seem to think. Yeah.

[00:42:44] So anyway, I don't think what happened was what she intended to happen, which is not to say she doesn't bear some responsibility for it. Cause it was her, it was kind of her idea, but I don't think it played out in the way she intended that it would. So there's been a lot of chatter in the discourse and on previous episodes about what motivates Deidre.

[00:43:07] And a lot of people seem to think that she is motivated by, um, that she, I don't, what do you think before I say that, what do you think motivates Deidre? I mean, I think, I think she explained it. Um, to, to Cyril's mom, she was raised in an Imperial Kinderblock and given what we know Which is timeline wise doesn't work out, but she was raised in a galactic Kinderblock. Galactic Kinderblock. Yeah. No, no.

[00:43:35] It's, it's a Tony Gilroy does not care about the lore. Okay. So she's raised in an Imperial Kinderblock. And I think that environment would, that environment would have been extremely competitive. It would have been, it would, you would, you know, there would have been very little in the way of, there would have been nothing to very little in the way of affection. She would have been, you know, they would have been indoctrinated with the, the ideology of the empire. So. I mean, but okay.

[00:44:04] This is a lore problem because, um, when she was a child, the empire was not in control. Yeah. Okay. So she did say an Imperial Kinderblock and I do think that Tony Gilroy meant that, but timeline wise, it just doesn't add up. So that is. Okay. But I think that the character was written as such exactly what you said. I've got to say, I am probably, I'm probably less okay with the, I'm less okay with the

[00:44:30] lore of Star Wars than, than I think you and John are so. Well, I mean, to be honest, I'm the only one who really cares about this stuff of the three of us. I think I'm the one who's pedantic about, uh, I'm like, Gilroy, just pay attention to the lore. You're not slumming it. You're not slumming it. This is a rich story. I've got a whole podcast on this stuff. Yeah.

[00:44:56] Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, I, I think, I think, I think Deidre is a seriously, seriously damaged person. And I think she is determined. She's determined that her product will be an environment of her rather than she will be a product for environment.

[00:45:19] She wants to control the world around her and she wants to control how people see her in that environment. And so I think she genuinely does want to advance as far as talent, as far as her talent will take her. And she is a very good intelligence operative. Um, and I think one of the, one of the interesting things about the way the ISB is being portrayed

[00:45:48] is she is clearly smarter than most of the people in it, but the empire is a deeply patriarchal society. Um, and I think Deidre is really frustrated that people she would see as mediocracies are ahead of her. Hmm. And I think she is determined. She's determined to prove her worth.

[00:46:17] She's determined to succeed in the system. And she's been raised in such a way that, that she believes. And I think she genuinely does believe that the empire is for the, the empire is the greater good. But I also think she's been raised in such a hard environment that she's determined not to, she's determined to be comfortable, to not suffer again. Hmm.

[00:46:44] Because when she's talking to Cyril about going back to Coruscant and being together, I think she imagines, you know, it's, it was in her flat on Coruscant as well. Everything's very clean, very neat, very ordered, very clean lines. And so I think she's, she's just this deeply damaged person who is determined to come out on top and to make sure that, like I say, that her environment is a product of her rather

[00:47:14] than her being a product of her environment. The one thing I always says, the one thing that always occurs to me when I'm watching Denise Goff on screen is, have you ever seen the movie Downfall? No, I don't think so. It's the one with the famous, the famous Hitler rant that's been turned into a meme like seven million times. You know, Hitler reacts to.

[00:47:38] Um, and it always grinds my gears that that film has been reduced to that one scene and it's been turned into a meme. Um, because the guy playing Hitler in that movie, an actor called Bruno Gantz, who is sadly no longer with us, does something that ought to be impossible. He makes Adolf Hitler recognizably human without making him in the least bit sympathetic.

[00:48:05] Um, and I think Denise Goff does something very similar with Deidre in that she is not at all sympathetic. Hmm. And yet she's recognizably human. She's a fully fleshed out character. And you can see why, you can see why Cyril is, you can see why Cyril loves her. Mm hmm.

[00:48:30] Um, and that is, that is, that is incredibly difficult to do because the way, usually when you're playing a character, the way you make a character feel human is to have the audience sympathize with them on some level or to have the audience empathize with them on some level. And Denise Goff doesn't want you to do that. Hmm. So I think, I think it's an, I think it's an incredible piece of acting.

[00:48:57] Um, her and Cyril's relationship is, is really interesting because neither of the, you know, both of them are coming from backgrounds that have damaged them deeply in various ways. I mean, Cyril's mom basically tortures him, um, psychologically for most of the series. And they're clearly people that aren't used to dealing with being affectionate towards other human beings.

[00:49:23] They don't know how to express it themselves and they don't know how to receive it from other people. Yeah. Especially her. Yeah. And I think that's a, that's a really difficult thing to portray convincingly. And both of them do it really well. Like that, that scene in the last episode. Oh, the kiss. Oh my God. That kiss was awful. I mean, it was so, so, yeah.

[00:49:51] But that scene in the last episode where he comes to her flat and she's like clearly really pleased to see him. Oh, in the last block of episodes. Yeah. Sorry. The last, no, yeah, no. In this block of episodes where he's been on Gorm and he comes back to. Yeah. That was last week. Yeah. Okay. Was it? Okay. Okay. Sorry. Oh, this three episode release. Yeah. Just doesn't work for me. I can't follow what. That's why I didn't watch episode nine. Cause I'd almost certainly get it wrong. But yeah. Where they're in the flat.

[00:50:21] And she's clearly really pleased to see him, but she doesn't know her. She doesn't know how to express it. Yeah. And it's just, oh, oh, I just, I just really wanted the two of them to run away together and be happy on a little moon somewhere. Oh, I mean, I, so I wonder about with Deidre, whether it is nurture more than, oh, sorry, nature more than nurture because. Oh, okay.

[00:50:51] Laura questions aside. I just think that there is, maybe she has a personality that is attracted to order. And that is something that the empire offers her offers her, you know, a purpose offers her, um, a way to think about what she's doing, compartmentalize, uh, her goals. But she also, she's experienced frustration because, well, there's like frustration and work in,

[00:51:17] in, in terms of she was chasing access and that didn't pan out, but also frustration, as you said about just the way she's treated as a woman. And, and in this, like she's put the last two years into this project that she seemed to have, in my opinion, I think she had misgivings about it from the beginning. She seemed uneasy about it. And, uh, now it's coming to fruition and they're like, okay, Captain Kaido has things handled like, what the fuck? I've, who's Captain Kaido? I've been doing this for two years now.

[00:51:46] Um, yeah. So I, I do feel for her in that way. And I definitely felt for her about what happens later, but, um, okay. So things are starting to escalate spurred on by Cassian's report of the turn things have taken in the square. The Gorman front has activated a protest that floods the square first chanting. The galaxy is watching. The galaxy is watching. Then singing a patriotic song in gore.

[00:52:12] The new recruits from the last episode now dressed in black, right gear are sent out to control the crowd quote unquote, but with the full knowledge, uh, from those who send them that this particular batch of soldiers is ill-equipped for the job and about to make everything worse.

[00:52:30] So, um, yeah, we are, we already talked about chef's kiss to the development of the Gorman culture with that, that moment with the chanting and the singing. Um, but also Rylands, we haven't talked about yet.

[00:52:59] He was the, he was kind of the leader of this group, but he's starting to realize that they've been pushed into a trap and nobody's listening to him. What did you, what were you thinking during that confrontation? First, his conversation with his daughter, when his daughter won't listen to him. Um, what is it just backtracking a little bit? Is it worth talking about where the, the, the line, the galaxy is watching, uh, comes from? Yes, of course. Cause the, I, you were the, the history of that.

[00:53:29] Please tell us. Um, well, the, the line is obviously a little bit different, but the world is watching is, um, yeah, that was, that's a line that's been used in protest lock. So you can, that was chanted in, um, Tahrir Square in, during the Arab Spring. It was chanted in Maidan during, uh, the revolution of dignity, but it actually goes back to the

[00:53:56] American civil rights movement, um, as the first sort of, um, protest movement that was extensively televised. So if you watch images of the, the civil rights marchers trying to march over the bridge in Selma, the world is watching is, is what they're chanting. Okay. Or one of the things they're chanting. So I thought that that was a really clever, that was a really clever use of that because

[00:54:23] like, like I say, it has a long history of being a chance in protest. No, thank you for pointing that out. Yeah. Um, probably like the most famous incident and of it being used. And the one that keeps getting brought up is, um, it was used at the, the riots outside the democratic convention in Chicago in 1968. Um, which again, if you go back and watch the television footage, it's very clear that

[00:54:52] like there are thousands of people, probably tens of thousands of people chanting that in unison. Hmm. Hmm. What, what do you think of, uh, Ryland's? Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, he's, I do think it's kind of, he's kind of coming to this realization a little bit too late. Like there's not much he can do about it at this point. I think we'll get to it in a minute, but his conversation with Cyril is absolutely tragic.

[00:55:22] Hmm. Um, because he assumes Cyril knows much more than he actually does. Um, um, and yeah, like I, I, I can't, it must've been before this, but when the, the Gorman resistance is meeting and it's not Ryland's, it's one of the other leaders is talking about, I don't care whether you're picking up a gun. I don't care whether you're demonstrating, we're all Gorman. We've all got to do something now.

[00:55:49] You know, I'm paraphrasing what he said, but it's like, I think, I don't think Ryland's is opposed to the idea of violence. He just sees that it won't work. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's a principled, I don't think it's like a principled position of nonviolence. I mean, he, he shoots Cyril later, so. Yeah. He's just taking a look around the square and just seeing what is inevitably going to happen and how much Imperial firepower is out there. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:18] I mean, so they did, they, uh, with a show, they're doing this skip a year every time and then letting us fill in the blanks. But clearly something happened with Cyril and the Gorman front where they figured out that he was kind of not, uh, completely on their side. Do you think by the way that Cyril and Enza had an affair? Did you get those vibes? I think Cyril might've wanted to.

[00:56:46] Just the way he's like, I have to see you. And she's like, well, now you see me last episode. Yeah. Yeah. Possibly. I don't, I don't like, I don't like the idea of Cyril doing Deidre dirty. Okay. Okay. That doesn't sit well with me, but yes, you're, you're quite possibly right. Hey, Deidre does him dirty all the time, but not in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Quite, quite possibly. No, I just mean she lies to him. Um, yeah.

[00:57:15] But so that's, this confrontation with Cyril and, and Rylan's was, was heartbreaking to me because Cyril really didn't know about the mining stuff. He genuinely did not know. And he's just starting to figure out that he thought that he was on the inside and he's never been on the inside. Uh, he was told that his mission was to entrap out, uh, outside agitators. And, and Rylan says to him, how could we have been such fools? And Cyril says, I meant you no harm. And Rylan's is like, how could you say that?

[00:57:43] How can you say you meant us no harm? Were you not being a double agent and screwing us over? And also, and also look around you, look around you, man. Our entire civilization is on the point of collapsing. Yeah. Why the hell do I, why the hell do I care what you meant to do at this point? But it is also like Cyril, Cyril's now just in this conversation, realizing a whole bunch of, a bunch of things that he thought were true are not.

[00:58:12] And he's like, it's just a rumor. And Rylan's is like, are you mad to think I would believe that, that it's worth saying what kind of being are you? And it's like, well, Cyril is the kind of being that actually told himself that none of this was true. And now he's learning the hard way. Yeah. He fucked around. He's finding out. Yeah. Yeah. I love, so the, I love a detail where they have, when they're entering the square, they're

[00:58:40] chanting in basic, which is basically English. And so that means that when they're recorded, the galaxy is watching. Everyone understands what they're saying. The galaxy is watching. But then when, um, Lazine starts up the gore anthem, it's, they're singing in gore because this is a moment for themselves. Yeah. And again, the, the, the chanting in basic chanting in English again, goes back to, to real life.

[00:59:08] Because again, if you watch the, the, the footage of Taria square or, or you're on my dad, they chant it in both Arabic and English. They want, they, they want the outside. People are chanting that one, the outside will to know what they're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Good point. Um, yeah. And the anthem really changes the tone of things. There's been a lot of, uh, Les Miserables comparisons with the anthem. Like, do you hear the people sing?

[00:59:36] But I actually, I find it, it's more comparable to, we just recently at the end of the wheel of time season, we had a battle scene where the people sang, uh, sing of Monetherin before a battle that they seem destined to lose. And it's more of like a lament more. So sing of Monetherin is like, just remember our people. Like, and I feel like this gore anthem is the same. You can kill us, but our spirit, our memory will live on. People will remember this.

[01:00:07] Yeah. And I sort of, and I sort of took it as like the gore, the gorman, like planetary anthem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So now we get to the part where my heart breaks. Cyril cut short. Um, Cyril is collected from his house, told that all employees are to report immediately to the IOC building upon arriving at the office.

[01:00:31] He's put in what feels like a holding cell full of scared people and KX series security droids awaiting deployment into the crowd. He's starting to understand that Deirdre has been keeping the most important parts of the Gorman plan from him. And he begins to feel his whole life is a lie. He sneaks out to confront her. And once he finds her, she won't stop lying. So he strangles Deirdre, forcing her to tell him the whole truth about what is going on on Gorman.

[01:00:59] And then he leaves her striking out into the chaos outside. So, yeah, we have to talk about that, that violent moment. Uh, Tony Gilroy sure loves some violence against women. Um, this is the whole, I mean, this was the whole thing in like series one, which is why getting Cyril and Deirdre getting together was always a bit weird because there was always that kind of slightly stalkerish energy to Cyril. I don't know.

[01:01:27] I don't, there's probably a better way to put that, but I can't think of, I can't think of it right now. Um, and I, I, I thought like Deirdre's line, you didn't mind the, you didn't mind the promotions. Hmm. It's like, but do you think that he did not earn his promotions? Because I feel like Cyril, he's, he has some character flaws and obviously Deirdre does as well.

[01:01:51] Um, but I feel like he is a good worker, you know, he's smart, he's diligent, he's persistent. Yes. But, um, I think in order for Cyril to be, um, I think in order for Cyril to be, um, I think where the ISB needed him to be, I think they probably did fast track him quite substantially. Um, I mean, who knows?

[01:02:21] It's not, it's not really established what the Imperial Bureau of standards actually, I mean, this is the thing. I kind of just wanted them to go back to the, to Coruscant and be happy, you know, counting rivets for, um, but it's never really, it's never really made clear exactly what the, the, the standards Bureau actually does. Like, I'm not clear, I'm not clear on what its mission is. Given mundane work where he's like verifying fuel and stuff, he's like, I'm going to uncover

[01:02:50] the conspiracy theory. So I think he would never be happy in that job. He would never be satisfied in that. And I think that that is something he and Deirdre have in common is that they, they have to find the fraying edge and pick at it to unravel the mystery. Yeah. Um, we do, I do feel like Cyril might've been the happiest on Gorman. I get some, first of all, the, one of the, the first ways we were introduced to him, one

[01:03:18] of the reasons why I like him so much is his first introduction. He's like, he's like, I've modified my uniform. I've raised my color a centimeter and blah, blah, blah. Um, now he's on the fashion planet and he's like, he's like, I'm going to rock the local trench coat. He's like, uh, yeah, the little, uh, pickle type hat thing that like, right. And he's tending to his gorelectopods. Um, I think he's, he's into living on Gorman.

[01:03:46] And so this is another, especially another reason why it, uh, this whole thing devastates him and just stuns him. Um, yeah. Yeah. And I do like, by the way that in this episode, they do start mentioning, like, we only see this one location and obviously for practical reasons, you can only really see one location. They've built this entire library square. Um, but they mentioned other cities that there are also mining ships landing at Jelnovi at Likwa. There's also been attacks in these places and other cities.

[01:04:15] So I like that they remember it is an entire planet. It's not just one city. Yeah. It is an entire planet with loads of people on it. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, okay. So we have to talk about, we have our first glimpse, one of these droids that Cyril is when he's put in that room and there's a droid sitting there. One of them must be K2SO. Yeah. And those KX droids look properly sinister sitting in that room. Yeah.

[01:04:42] I hope there's one that turns and stares at Cyril and that was so creepy and cool. Um, the way that shot was framed. I hope that was K2SO. Uh, but yeah, so military droids are supposed to be outlawed after the clone wars. So after the revenge of the Sith movie time. Um, so this is kind of like a sinister way that they, they're like, do as we say, not as we do situation. I'm like, not really. It's a different classification. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:05:11] I mean, they're not armed. They don't have, uh, they don't have blasters. So if you're being, if you're being pernickety about it, they're just sort of throwing people across the square. Well, so anyone who's played the Jedi games knows that they are a bitch to fight. They are difficult opponents, but when you break them down to a certain amount, you can hack them so that they fight on your side. So we'll get back to that later.

[01:05:39] Uh, but Cassian, he spent most of the episode trying to get a good angle to take a shot on Deidre and take her out. But storm troopers, bad comms, and her tendency to mostly stay inside have been getting in his way. Now though, he finally has a clear shot. That is the moment that Cyril, who has been standing in the crowd reeling as his understanding of the world crumples around him, spots Cassian, the man whose actions killing those two security guards at the start of the last season, Cyril feels ruined his life.

[01:06:09] Cyril attacks Cassian and the two fight brutally. Cyril ultimately takes the high ground and points a gun at Cassian. But when Cassian asks him, who are you? It catches him off guard. As he's lowering his weapon, Rylan steps in and shoots Cyril dead. Will helps Cassian, still confused by the encounter, out of the building. So I'm like, okay, first of all, Rylan, he was lowering his gun. His redemption was nigh. It was nigh, I tell you.

[01:06:40] But also, just like, who are you? You're the guy that ruined my life. You killed my father. Prepare to die. I die. Just like, yeah. I just, I love Cassian's complete incomprehension of why this guy is beating the shit out of me. He's like, this feels personal, dude. Yeah. And also, I have to say that, like, the entire massacre in the square is very well shot.

[01:07:08] Because that could so easily have just descended into, like, random blaster fire and just complete, not a chaos. But actually, like, the director and the director of photography do a really good job of showing you what is happening and actually, you know, keeping the camera still enough that you can tell what's going on and who is doing what to who. Mm-hmm. Um, as that is going on.

[01:07:36] So it didn't just descend into a lot of shaky cam. No. Rapid cuts. Which so many scenes like that do. Yeah. It's one of my absolute pet peeves to keep the camera still. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think that they did a good job. Although, I have to say, it did take me two watches just because there's so many people to track. And so I would, like, forget, wait, what happened to him in all of this? You know, so. And I think it's Freiland's daughter, isn't it, one of the KX robots just picks up and just goes, whoomp! Yeah.

[01:08:05] About, like, sort of 50, 60 feet across this. Yeah. That was, yeah, that was shocking. So that happens before he dies. And, um, I was like, oh, they're still going to run away to, no, they're not. No, they're not. Because her back, her back, her back be broken. Yeah. And then he dies and it's like, they are double knots. This is double knot happening. Yeah. Yeah. Although I think it might have already happened.

[01:08:29] Somebody, so with this whole skipping a year thing, Tony Gilroy is leaving these golden gaps for other writers to come in and, like, fill in all the details about what happened in between the stuff. Because we also need to work out what happened with Cassian's shoulder as well. Because that. Right. I mean, I don't know if that's a big deal, but, um, but yeah, he had a blaster burn, but that could have been any. Yeah. That's something that you can turn into an epic story or it could just be, you know, who knows.

[01:08:59] Um, how would you compare this experience versus Ferex and what the rebellion, the, the revolt that broke out there, uh, for both Cyril and Cassian? Well, for Cyril, obviously one, he was a success. He came out of it with Deidre and the other one, he died. Yeah.

[01:09:22] And I think from Cyril's point of view, what happened on Ferex, he could actually like genuinely pass off as, you know, this is, this is the fault of the rebels. This is, this is, you know, people, this is people breaking the law. You know, the empire was just doing what needed to be done. Obviously here he can't, this is the thing. The Gormans have not done, you know, they're not part of the rebellion. Then they are loyal Imperial citizens and all of this stuff is happening to them regardless.

[01:09:54] Um, and I think, I think that's a lot of what drives Cyril. Cyril, like you say, is very good at lying to himself. Um, and I think. Not as good as Deidre. Yeah. The situation on Gorman doesn't give him the opportunity to do that. Whereas what happened on Ferex is not quite as clear cut as to who is, as to who isn't, as to who is in the wrong. Hmm. I think, or at least not from Cyril's point of view.

[01:10:24] Yeah. And like bear in mind, like people on Ferex, you know, they were basically tearing stormtroopers limb from limb. Um, and they, you know, they, they would have, they would have killed Deidre in some very gruesome way. If Cyril hadn't intervened. Right. Right. I mean, that is a thing. So there was a question some people had. Did Cyril know that Cassian was aiming his gun at Deidre? I think he did. I think. Yeah, I think he did. I think, I thought I clocked him noticing where it was directed.

[01:10:53] I think at least part of what's driving Cyril in that moment is, uh, and yeah, I know I'm, I know I'm fanboying this relationship. But I think part of what's driving Cyril in that moment is, uh, uh, a protective urge towards Deidre. But you're right as well. It's, he recognized, he knows who Cassian is, even if Cassian doesn't know who he is. Um, also this must be the first time in the history of Star Wars that stormtroopers have managed to hit what they're aiming at.

[01:11:22] Oh, yeah. Well, they put the, the inexperienced ones in the black riot gear. Yeah. Um, okay. So Cyril blames Cassian for like ruining his, his life to some effect or something, but it's also, uh, Cassian, his actions by killing those guards, put Cyril on the path where he met Deidre, where he got all these promotions. How do you think Cyril's life might've played out if he had just stayed in his position on Morlana one?

[01:11:52] If he hadn't been fired? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really impossible to tell. I do think Cyril either would have had to, either would have had to, to move away or actually would have killed his mother at some point. Well, but he didn't live on Coruscant then. He lived on a different planet. No, but he was still, he was still living, he was still living with his mother. He wasn't, he moved home after he was fired. Oh, oh, okay. I'm misremembering that then. Um, yeah. I mean, who knows? Who knows?

[01:12:22] Hmm. I mean, I feel like maybe he would have, I think what he really wanted most of all was acceptance and to be patted on the head and told he was a good boy.

[01:12:35] And I have to hope there's some version of reality where he got to be a big fish in a small pond and found someone who thought he was cool and liked his high collars and piping on his uniforms. Um, but then even still what was happening with the empire, he's a small cog in that. So it doesn't change anything with what has been going on in the empire.

[01:13:04] And eventually, I don't know. We haven't seen more Lana one except while we saw Ferrix, obviously Ferrix has felt it. So he would have gotten sucked into it somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a quick pause right here. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the dramatic end to the episode.

[01:13:46] Okay. It's time for a tactical retreat. By this point, Rylance has already lost his daughter Enza, who was thrown to her death by one of the security droids and many of his erstwhile allies. And Lazine, the firebrand revolutionary also involved in Sinta's death, helps Dylan, Enza's romantic partner out of the center of the chaos. But Dylan succumbs to his gunshot wound.

[01:14:09] At the same time, one of the security droids finds Cassian and Will in the alley and attacks them until the droids taken out by Sam, Sinta's killer, who slams a truck into it, severing it in half against a wall. Cassian tries to get Will to flee with him, but Will refuses to leave without Drina. So Cassian gathers up the Imperial droids' pieces and lets Will stay behind to reunite with his love. Okay.

[01:14:37] So Sam, he's the one who got that big lecture last week from Vel about how he's going to carry Sinta's death with him always. Do you think he's redeemed himself? Yes, I think he does. Also, great line, you'll wear this like skin. Yeah. Great line. But yes, I think he does.

[01:14:59] I mean, I know it's kind of, we've got to introduce K2SO somehow, but it's really odd behavior for Cassian, you know, in the middle of a desperate battle, to stop and pick up the remains of an expired Imperial droid and just throw them in the back of the ship, just in case. Yeah. I mean, he could have said a line like, oh, we can search his memory or, you know, try to use this. And yeah. So I have to say, this is a retcon.

[01:15:29] There is a comic called Rogue One, Cassian and K2SO special number one from 2017, which before was the canon explanation of how they met. And so obviously this offers a completely different one. I decided not to reread the comic right before this, just to not like, I don't know, get my feels about it or something. It's not, I'm not super attached to it, but basically the outlines of that version is that Cassian, he, yeah,

[01:15:57] is breaking into somewhere and he runs into some Imperial droids and he decides to hack one, as you do in the Jedi games, as I was just saying, to, yeah, be on his side. But he, K2SO the entire time, he's like not completely converted yet. Like it, it kind of gives K2SO some agency where he's been freed a bit, but he eventually over time aligns more and more with Cassian's goals.

[01:16:23] But he does already start doing the thing that he does in Rogue One where he's quoting all these odds or, you know, percentages all the time. And also like he's, you know, he's, he has no tact. Like the reprogramming, like completely removed his sense of like decor. Right. Yeah. And voice like Alan Tudyk. I haven't heard any of the others sound like Alan Tudyk, but I'm always glad for more Alan Tudyk.

[01:16:48] Um, but apparently the original version, and I do in a way wish that they had gone with this. I think probably they just didn't have the time for it at the end, but Tony Gilroy was going to sort of make his introduction a horror moment where he's like ripping through the hull of a ship or something. And then they, I guess, stop him and reprogram or something. So I don't know. I feel like of those three possibilities, the one we ended up with is kind of the most meh. Yeah.

[01:17:15] The one we ended up with was certainly the, like the dumbest. Cause like I said, who stops in the middle of a battle to just pick up their litter, uh, basically and just put it in the back of the ship for no apparent reason. Well, I mean, I think he could have stated it out loud, but my assumption is that he thinks he's going to get information from the droid or that they can use the droid and like sting operations to pretend to be Imperial or something.

[01:17:43] But they should say he should have just had a line or something. But Tony Gilroy doesn't not want to tell you too many detail details. He's like, you can figure this stuff out for yourself or not. Um, we did get a, a voiceover line where Wilman reminds us about Ferrix.

[01:18:00] He says stone in sky, which again is, um, stone in sky is what they were chanting when at Marva's funeral, because, uh, when you die on Ferrix, then you are turned into a brick to be, you know, part of the pillars of the community, literally. The keystones, whatever. Hmm. Okay. And then we get to what are the heaviest moments of the episode? This is when I was crying. We hear the Gorman front broadcast.

[01:18:30] This is Palma one. This is the voice of Gorman. This is Palma one making an emergency broadcast on all open channels. We are under siege. We are being slaughtered. The Imperial murder of Gorman has begun. There are hundreds of bodies this moment. As I say, these words, hundreds of murdered Gormans lay dead in Palma Plaza. Thousands more in the streets. More every minute. We're being destroyed. This is Gorman reaching for any open channel that can hear me.

[01:18:57] If you can hear me, if you believe in truth, if you have any faith left in truth, please mark this message and pass it forward. This is murder. The Empire built this fire. They made this fire and led us to slaughter. Now they expect us to die without knowing why. The conspiracy we feared is real. It's here today. Imperial ships are already landing across. And then she gets cut off.

[01:19:24] So meanwhile, though, Deidre is searching the square and she realizes she cannot see Cyril. And she probably understands the worst that he's now dead and the planet will be soon. And she's clawing out her collar, seeming to have a sort of panic attack. Back on Coruscant, Cyril's mother, Edie, is watching a very twisted version of these events on the Empire-owned channels, as we talked about last week.

[01:19:54] And there, her son is being listed as one of the heroes who perished in the Gorman attack. And we see her with tears streaming down her face. So, yeah, I thought last season, I thought maybe Cyril would kill Edie. But no, they made me feel sad for her. Oh, you're softer-hearted than I am. No, you didn't feel sad for her? No, I will never feel sad for Edie.

[01:20:22] She, like, psychologically tortured poor Cyril for basically the entire show. So, don't tell me at the end. Don't show me her tears at the end. Like, if she's a bad person, I don't like her. She does love him, though, in her way. We see she has her Cyril spider on display at home, where she can see it from her favorite spot in the breakfast nook, where she sits with Cyril when he visits. Okay.

[01:20:52] So, it's her twisted form of love. That's Cyril and the women in his life. So, what do you think Edie... I mean, I guess she's ultra-radicalized based on what she's seeing on the news. Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen earlier on in the season that she doesn't sort of question the line put out by the Empire. Yeah. Yeah, and they're saying, couldn't be possible without outside terrorist assistance.

[01:21:19] So, they're also implicating, like, it's not just Gorman. There's a wider problem. We have a reason to crack down on more planets now, too. Mm. Or maybe blast Alderaan. Yeah. Yeah. And also, like, I wonder what's going to happen with Dedra going forward.

[01:21:40] Because, like, I think the only person, probably the only person who consistently showed her any affection is now... I think one of the few people she showed affection to, probably, is now dead. Yeah. Um, and she's responsible, she's at least in part responsible for his, for his demise. I don't think, I can't see Dedra, like, turning rebel.

[01:22:08] Um, I think that, I think that would be too, that would be too big of a, that would be too big of a shift in her, uh, motivations. But, I think she's going to care an awful lot less about what, uh, Prendergast thinks. I think she's going to, she's going to, like, really double down on finding Luthen.

[01:22:33] I think this, this is, to, to go back to, like, Mears, I think she could go, like, full bore, uh, Javier, uh, when it comes to trying to find Luthen. Hmm. Um, and to be honest, I would have no problem if the series ended with her finding him, and them both killing each other, to be honest. Because I think, actually, I think that would be quite a good ending, because they are kind of, they're both fanatics. Hmm. That's a true romance. They're both, like, the mirror image of each other. Yeah, you're true.

[01:23:03] Yeah, you're right. There's, there's truth to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, we, we do have some feedback this week, but do you have, uh, any other general thoughts in the episode before we get into it? No, just, just that I'm kind of, I'm both, I'm both sad that there's only four more episodes, because I haven't watched episode. Well, no, I haven't watched episode nine, so I've still got episode nine to watch.

[01:23:24] I'm kind of sad that there's only going to ever be four more episodes of Vandor, because this is really high, leaving aside the Star Wars of it all, this is just really high quality television. Mm-hmm. I think, I think I might suggest Andor as a way into, as a way into Star Wars.

[01:23:53] Um, but on the other hand, I do kind of respect the fact that, that they've got a story that they, that they just want to tell over, over two seasons, that they're not dragging this out for the sake of, uh, dragging it out. It was supposed to be five seasons, so he shortened it considerably, because, because both Tony Gilroy and Diego Luna were like, we can't do this for that many years. Yeah, we haven't, just haven't got that kind of time. Yeah.

[01:24:19] Um, although I do, I do think there's a, there's a fairly good chance that Diego Luna probably turns up in more Andor content somewhere, because I think he really enjoys playing Cassian. Hmm. I get the impression that he really, that he really likes the parts. He could turn up on a cameo, you know, like I said, there's, there's ripe room for telling stories in between these gaps and around what's going on here.

[01:24:42] Like, um, yeah, there's characters who should have shown up at this point and, and what are they doing and probably shows or movies are going to be made about that at some point. And he could definitely show up as a cameo. Yeah. But yeah, really enjoying the season. Gotta say, I think overall season two up to this point is slightly better than season one.

[01:25:08] I thought season one, when it got, when it got going, it was, it was really good. But I do think season one took a little while, took a little while to find its feet. Um, and like you were saying, um, about Rafe Judkins, you know, wheel of time that the show should get better as they go on. I think that's definitely the case with Andor. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay.

[01:25:36] Um, so dipping into the feedback, Ken W says, uh, what an unbelievable arc of nine episodes. It's great to see a different side to the rebellion. Uh, he likes the squadron set up, uh, on Shangri-La. It's a big part of the newish comic arc, the battle of Jakku and is a provisional home of the nascent new Republic. Keep up the great work. May the force be with you, Ken W. And yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:26:03] So after, after this, after the battle of Endor in the return of the Jedi, um, Shangri-La does become the capital of the new Republic for a while. And Mon Mothma, the first chancellor. Um, this is something I talk about a bit in these, uh, rebel squadron radio sort of mini lore casts that I put out each week for supercast and Patreon subscribers. But yeah, so that's, that's what we're, we know, we always knew Mon Mothma is not going to die in this because she's in the original movie.

[01:26:32] Uh, but indeed she becomes the first chancellor of the new Republic. Okay. Um, I do think with the squadrons thing on the lore hound, we have missed a trick by not making it red squadron, green squadron, gold squad. So, you know, um, it's just easier to use our first initials. So we remember who was who. Oh, I hadn't noticed that. Yeah, of course. That's what's going. Yeah.

[01:27:00] So I had gone completely over the top of my head. Yeah. Uh, speaking of, of the squadrons, we have Delta squadron, David, he sent in a voicemail. Uh, he had some thoughts on serials, on serial, on Cyril's overall arc. Serial, Cyril is a serial icon if you remember that, but okay. This is what David had to say.

[01:27:26] Hey, super quick feedback about Cyril's arc. I was thinking about this and why we see the reaction that he has. And something occurred to me. Cyril is not a person oriented towards action. Every time that we see that he gets involved in actual like shooting and, and, uh, violent conflict, it sort of takes it out of him.

[01:27:54] And he sort of left, um, uh, stunned and, and a little bit confused. We saw that in Ferrix. We saw that after the Gormans heist the weapons. But he loves order. He loves process. He loves, uh, he really, um, uh, is drawn towards, uh, structure. And the empire, I think, represents that for him. He doesn't see behind the empire what they're really doing.

[01:28:23] So he's just looking at the surface level of, ah, there's order, there's control, there's law, there's consequences for actions. And he's really good at it, right? Yeah. Yeah. He got some promotions because he's connected to Dedra. Uh, but he's also seemingly good at his job. And so, you know, it was easy to promote him even though he had some, uh, nepotistic access, so to speak.

[01:28:49] So, uh, just thinking about his history, what did he do? He found a job that was really far away where he could stand on his own. And, uh, he was upset by the, this disorder that happened when two Primor employees were murdered. And so he wants to figure that out, uh, because that's a disordered system for him. So then he's humiliated by Cassian.

[01:29:16] He's been all along, he's been infantilized by his mother. And so that's why he runs to get that job, you know, to get far away and to be his own man, so to speak. But then he's humiliated by Cassian and fired by the ISB. So that's just like a big wrong for him. Um, and then he falls in love with Dedra who represents this order and structure for him that he is so seeking.

[01:29:42] But then, I don't know, it seems like the relationship with Dedra and him, long before the big incident, uh, Pryor maybe was souring a little bit. And he started to sort of, uh, fall in love with, um, the idea of the Gormans and somebody that's involved in this. So, yeah, you know, he's looking around.

[01:30:05] But what happens is, is that all that fragility that he has and that, um, uh, adherence to order is now shattered. And he realizes that he's been, um, he is the outside agitator. And, you know, he may be working for the Empire to create order and stability in the universe, but he didn't realize that he was, uh, enabling a totalitarian system.

[01:30:33] So he's, uh, he's upset by that. And then when he sees Cassian, that's just a massive trigger for all of those feelings of guilt and confusion, humiliation. Uh, the whole, his whole life has not been his own. He has just been responding to all these patterns and controls that other people have put around him.

[01:30:57] And so when he confronts Cassian and then at that moment when he's lowering the gun, he's not having a crisis of change of heart. He's just realized that Cassian doesn't know who he is. He knows who Cassian is. And Cassian asks him, who are you?

[01:31:19] And he's like floored by the enormity of all of that and that Cassian, you know, doesn't know who he is. So I think that's his pause and hesitation. And I think that's where the rage and the intensity comes from is that all his life he's been shaped, controlled, manipulated, been at other people's forces, and he's never had his own agency over his own life truly.

[01:31:45] And then we see that interestingly contrasted with Cassian in these couple of episodes. Uh, I don't want to say anything about episode nine because this is an episode eight podcast. But there's this theme which runs across multiple episodes where Cassian is not feeling that he has agency over his own life and, you know, says things to that effect a couple of times. So great contrast in characters between Cyril and Cassian.

[01:32:12] And, um, I think there's a embedded somewhere in here is a sort of a free will versus determinism argument. Uh, but maybe we'll save that for a recap. Uh, we'll definitely talk about it in episode nine. All right. Thanks guys. Thoughts? Yeah. I mean, definitely, um, Cyril is somebody with a strong, uh, commitment to order.

[01:32:37] And again, I think that might sort of spring out of the fact that he's had a pretty difficult, um, you know, he's had a pretty difficult background. Again, I think it's kind of wanting to control his environment. Mm-hmm. Um, and I do think like the, the, you do get the sense of like the expression on Cyril's faces. You know? Yeah. You are the guy that's ruined my life. How can you not know? Who I am.

[01:33:07] How can you not know? How can you have this bigger impact on me and not know who I am? Mm-hmm. Um, and I do think it would be, it would have been interesting if it would have been really interesting to see where he, where his character would have gone had he lived. Mm-hmm. Um, but of course we're never, we're never going to find that out. Fan fiction incoming. If I wrote fan fiction, I might do that. Fan fiction.

[01:33:37] Um, so yeah, I, I, I largely agree. Uh, I largely agree with what David was saying. Um, I mean, you guys picked up on him having, um, you know, perhaps having a, a relationship with, uh, with the Gorman, um. Enza? Enza. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, this is the one problem with the show. There are too many people and too many names. And they, they go, come and go quickly. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:04] Um, so yeah, I didn't, I didn't get that, but then again, I am, I am like deep into team Deadruns. So I, I need to go back and rewatch the episode, but if you picked up on it and David picked up on it, then it probably is there. And I just didn't notice it because I'm madly shipping Deadruns. Deadruns and Cyril. Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I think that I pretty much totally agree with David.

[01:34:32] I think that this is, this is one of the great tragedies of the show is, is as you say, it says, what if, what if he had been given an extra minute and does, did he deserve that extra minute? Because he did do, you know, when, when Rylance was accusing him, like, how dare you even say this bullshit to me? Um, Rylance was right. But it is also true that Cyril just, he was naive until the end and then he got the rudest

[01:35:02] awakening possible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, just to, sorry, before we finish, I just, I wanted to mention something that, uh, that, um, escaped me. So when the, the, when they're doing the radio, when they're doing the, the, the, the radio transmission that you read out again, I think there's a, there's a, there's a strong historical parallel there to the Hungarian uprising in 1956. Because again, if you, and again, I think I, I'm not sure they're still up there, but

[01:35:31] they used to be the, somebody did put them up on YouTube, but there's like the final announcement of like Budapest radio when like literally there's, there's Russian tanks outside the, the door of the, outside the door of the studio. Um, and again, the language they're using is very similar to that. So, um, so yeah, the writers know the history of like crushed revolutions basically. Hmm. Hmm.

[01:35:59] So yeah, our last piece of feedback does dig into that military history side of things. It's from Brian 80 63, AKA is David likes to say Uso, which is a Dune reference for anyone who doesn't know. Uh, but Brian, he's the editor of our blog and does, uh, so, so much moderation on the site and everything on, on the discord and everything. So, uh, Brian says, hello everyone. I got this interesting idea from another podcast talking about Andor. It leads to good governance.

[01:36:25] On the one hand, we have the various rebel factions, which are messy. There is not much governance at the moment. There must be a compromise by the factions, a force that goes above their own factions interest in history. Sometimes it is national identity in a rebellion. There is a certain democratic element to it. It is natural to have factions rising to counter the ruling force. Sometimes they fight one another, but if everything clicks, they work together to take down the existing regime.

[01:36:55] However, on the empire side, they govern through the rule of mediocrity, loyalty, and force. On the one hand, you want to succeed in your work and rise in the ranks. You see this with Deidre. However, it's not competence and good governance at play here, but survival and power. You are fine. If you please Vader, the emperor, Pardigas, or Krennic. But if you fail or get on their radar in a bad way, then it's over.

[01:37:23] Large-scale projects were common in the Soviet system and Mao Zedong's regime. Some were successful, but many failed, and failed big because of the size of the project. I am considering the great leap forward in China to change the agrarian regime to an industrial one. Leaders who failed were purged, and Mao then turned to the Cultural Revolution. Those are not the best leaders working together, but mediocre ones who are divided into factions

[01:37:52] of power, but all look at their great leader. Loyalty is the key. I'm reminded of the scene at the conference table in A New Hope where Vader chokes an imperial officer. Fear keeps him going, but this does not result in great governance. Yeah, I mean, I think the parallel to Communist China and the great leap forward is an interesting one.

[01:38:17] It wasn't, like I said earlier, it wasn't the parallel that sort of immediately leapt to mind. I would say the closer parallel, or not the closer parallel, but the ones that occurred to me were the Nazis, and obviously I think that's been baked into how the Empire has been portrayed, going right the way back to A New Hope. Although the Empire was based on, A New Hope was based on the Vietnam War, although a lot of people seem to be.

[01:38:47] But I think the aesthetic of the Empire. Very fashion, yeah. And yeah, I think Tony Gilroy's taken that a step further because there's like, there was a really interesting throwaway line in episode seven about the ISB having to collaborate with military intelligence, and Prendigast refers to them as our cousins of military intelligence,

[01:39:15] about the, I can't remember the doctor's name, but the doctor that tortured Bix. Gors. Gors. Gors is the worst, yeah. Yeah, and the implication there is that the way the Empire works is divide and rule. You set up different organizations with the same mandate, and they're all competing against each other for resources and access.

[01:39:41] And that's how the Emperor ultimately maintains power and control over the system, because he's the only one that can ultimately make decisions, because there's no, there's no, there's no cabinet, there's no parliament, there's no collective forum for it. Well, there is a parliament in the Senate. I mean, yeah, there's a Senate, yeah. But they've, they've done their, well, yeah. So what I'm saying is there's no collective decision making forum. It's divine.

[01:40:11] You can, you can neuter the Senate. You can neuter the Congress or whatever you call it. Actually, if you wanted a more recent example, I'm not saying that, well, I mean, actually, I think they are comparable, but Putin's Russia is also a very good example of this. This idea of, this idea of government by adhocracy. So you, you have all the bureaucratic structures of the state, but really where power resides

[01:40:39] is in a court, is in all these people immediately in orbit of the empire. Oligarchy, as they say. The president, yeah. So, yeah, like I think the, the, I think all of, all dictatorships are sort of similar in how they structure themselves and how power is divided. And actually I was, I'm in the middle of reading Frank Dicotta's, the, the Dutch historian,

[01:41:04] Frank Dicotta's book on the Great Leap Forward, which is just called the Great Leap Forward. It's a very good book, actually. Okay. So yeah, the guy's name is Frank Dicotta, D-I-K-K-O-T-E-R. Yeah. So I thought that, I thought that was a pretty good analogy. Okay. Frank. Frank. Oh, it has an umlaut on it. That's not Dutch. I mean, I'm not saying, I'm not saying he's not Dutch.

[01:41:34] I'm just saying that the spelling. Okay. I thought it was, you might be German, but I thought he was Dutch. He's Dutch. Yeah. Yeah. It's just not a Dutch last name. It's normal. Happens. Yeah. Okay. I mean, yeah, I think, um, I mean, Brian always has great insight into this, this, um, area in particular.

[01:41:53] Uh, I think, I think that what this show has done well though, is showing that it's not just, just how insidious fascism is and how it's not just this, um, from the top down sort of thing, but also showing about the role that propaganda plays in it. You know, the role that, um, uh, people just wanting stability.

[01:42:23] And as long as they think, I just constantly, I think all the time these days about that, that poem, you know, they came, they came first for the communists, but I was not communist. So I, I did nothing. They came for the Jews, but I was not Jewish. So I, you know, that poem. And then when, uh, they came for me, there was no one left to help.

[01:42:39] And that is exactly how fascism can be and has been effective, uh, is, is dividing and conquering one cell at a time, trusting that others won't care enough to help whoever they're concentrating on now. And then, you know, and then there's nobody to stand up until they get 100% their way. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:43:09] All right. Well, very serious conversation, but that leads into Luke. You have a podcast called, it could be said. So tell, tell us a bit about that. Yeah. So it's myself and two friends from university college, uh, Simon Alvey and we're cooling. And we talk about all things. Basically the, the standard format is we pick it. We, uh, pick three topics, one British politics related, one international politics. It's related.

[01:43:39] And then, um, and anything else, uh, topic. So it could be movies. It could be music. Could be sports. Could be anything. Um, basically. And that's kind of the way we structure the podcast. So if you want to hear three middle-aged blokes talk about British politics, international politics, and anything else that happens to pop in our collective Cabeza. Um, yeah. Um, feel free to give it a listen.

[01:44:07] I think we are picking up again this weekend. Okay. Is, is the idea. Okay. Okay. And, uh, if you want to hear more of Luke and I together, you can find us on wool shift dust where we've extensively covered silo and also the show beacon 23. And also, um, we will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was going to say so many adaptations of a Christmas Carol. So many adaptations. I'm so sorry. I'd kind of, I'd kind of blank that out.

[01:44:37] Oh, Christmas is already coming again. It is. In like nine months. And we didn't, we didn't even, we didn't even get, we didn't even get through all the adaptations. No, not even half. Not even a third. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, you can find more of us when we'll shift dust. Um, and do watch out in this feed for the episode nine breakdown coming out with the Delta Delta squadron next. And subscribers get more and or content this week as usual.

[01:45:04] So there's the Holocron lore cast, which this week will be David and I, we're going to be talking about Yavin for the site of the rebel base. And we're going to talk about like where it is, why the pyramids, where does the story there go from here? And, um, also there is the regular additional, uh, rebel squadron radio mini briefings and other audio and visual extras like David's chats. With the man who literally wrote the book on star Wars military strategy.

[01:45:34] And, uh, David did a tie Ventress video. And, uh, I think we're planning a couple more things, but if you only want those and or extras, plus all the public and or, uh, episodes from the season and last at three, you can unlock your own private and doors extras listening list for a one-time price of $10 monthly supercast and patrons subscribers will automatically get access to all of that. Plus the extras for like wheel of time severance rings of power, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:46:03] Um, not to mention the regular extra extras like the month monthly second breakfast, most recently about pizza and the 11 Z's movie club this month talking about a real pain. And that is the, we are putting out the April one late because basically we've been crushed with, uh, and or and other stuff in real life stuff. So, uh, we will be doing too much content. We'll be doing two in May, but first up a real pain. Um, yeah. And yeah, too much content we're doing.

[01:46:31] Also David and John are doing weekly breakdowns of the last of us. John and I are doing weekly breakdowns of Dr. Who. I think we might have some murder bot coming. And, uh, we just released this week a sinners breakdown with, uh, Jean Anthony and I, and that was, that was one of my favorite conversations that I think I've done. So that was, uh, just a really excellent analysis. Uh, I think those two guys brought so much to the table, just looking at all of the cultural

[01:47:01] intricacies of sinners. Have you seen that one yet? No, I haven't. All right. Highly recommended. It's on the to-do list. Yeah. Um, there's also going to be a one shot for Thunderbolts coming up soon, which is another, like so, so far this year, my top two movies, 2025 movies are sinners. Number one, Thunderbolts number two. Yeah. I've heard very good things about Thunderbolts. Yeah. Someone, um, someone I know said 10 out of 10 documentary about depression.

[01:47:30] About Thunderbolts. Well, I mean, this is, this is the thing because the, the, my local cinema at the moment is closed. It's being refurbished. So going to the cinema is actually quite a, quite a trek, um, at the moment. So I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of debating with myself whether I can be, whether I can, um, whether I can afford the time and expense of going to Thunderbolts or do I wait till it comes out on Disney? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:59] Oh, that's annoying that the cinema is, uh, under refurbishment. Well, it was, it was, it was, it was a, it's a, it's a very nice old cinema, but it definitely, definitely needs the refurbishment. All right. It was starting to show its age. How long is it going to last? Uh, I think till September. Okay. Okay. At least there's an insight. Yeah. All right. Um, do check out, there's a link in the show notes, a link tree where you can find links to the season pass stuff.

[01:48:27] And also, uh, all the affiliate feeds in the network, like nevermind the music where psychology meets music, radioactive ramblings where, uh, they're covering Ghibli, they're covering fallout, they're covering various other things. It's our own will shift dust, the star Wars Canon timeline podcast, which is I'm attempting to do all the star Wars and timeline order. So far I am in the middle of the high Republic. I'm going back and filling in more high Republic stuff, uh, rings and rituals and properly Howard.

[01:48:56] They're going to do a, um, Kevin Bacon season in the not too distant future. So yeah. It'll be like seven, seven degrees of Kevin, seven degrees of Kevin. Yeah. I mean, they, they do a draft thing, you know, where they draft the movies. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They do like a bracket tournament. Well, not a bracket thing, but just like where they, I don't know, they have their rules that they make up every season between the two of them, uh, Steven Anthony and they, you know, anyway. Um, yeah.

[01:49:23] So links to all this in the show notes, you also find there the email address and or at the Laura hounds.com where you can send in your feedback to be included in future episodes. Uh, join also our discussion on the discord. We have a very hopping and or discussion on the discord with separate, uh, separate channels for each episode. So you can talk spoiler free. And then, so that brings to the final round of thank yous and, and by popular request, we'd like to do music with this one.

[01:49:52] This is from the magical folder, old village and old favorite song of mine. It's a little bit sad. So thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doove 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, ghost of partition, radioactive Richard. Thank you so much to everyone who's listening. If you enjoy this coverage, please do share it with other people you think might enjoy it or leave us a nice review wherever you happen to be listening.

[01:50:20] This is, uh, I can't overstate how much help this is. Thank you, especially to our subscribers, of course, and to our lore masters. Most of all, our highest tier of subscribers, Samarsha, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter OH, Adam S, Nancy M, doove 71, Brian 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Matthew M, Sarah M, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Jedi Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Sub Hero, Aaron K,

[01:50:47] Dali V, Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben V, Scott F, Stephen N, Julia F, Carly S, Ilmariel, forward slash Tim, and always last, Adrian. All right. Thank you. And thank you so much, Luke. My pleasure. May the force be with you. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

[01:51:12] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. And connect with us on Twitter at thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:51:44] Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your six. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[01:52:08] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.