Andor - Season 2 - Wrap-Up & Roundtable

[00:00:00] Well, my comment was off topic. I just finished French Connection 2, so... Electric Boogaloo? French Connection 2, Electric Boogaloo? It has a ring to it! I was on Electric Boogaloo earlier on a recording for... Yeah, I heard you were gonna be guesting. Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Very exciting. John, what were you saying about Andor Endor? Well, I was very not very into Star Wars, like deep Star Wars, other than seeing the main movies, when you first brought up covering Andor, and I legitimately thought it was Endor when you first said it to me.

[00:00:48] Welcome to the Andor Podcast. Not the Endor Podcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to a galaxy far, far away. This is our Roundtable discussion of Season 2 of Andor and the franchise overall. With me today are John and Alicia. Hey, it's been a while since I've talked to you guys. You know, I've learned a lot of Star Wars since that comment that I made earlier, so let's not get too judgy here. I want you to add it. I want you...

[00:01:15] It's fine. I've watched all the Clone Wars and Rebels now. Yeah, you have. It's all right. I'll take the adding. I'll say that after Andor, I went through and watched Rogue One, as one does. And then I went through and watched the original trilogy after that. And then I started the Ewok movies. Oh, the actual... Oh, those other things that they made with the Ewoks? From the 80s, yeah. Oh my God. It's so Amblin, I have to say. Right, right.

[00:01:45] It's charming, but silly. Right. Well, this is the first time that the three of us are actually able to talk about Andor, and it is how many weeks after the season is over? I know, it's just been so busy. Yeah. So, general spoiler warning, all things Star Wars are on the table, so that's it. So, Alicia, you watched all of Rogue One right afterwards.

[00:02:13] I did not. I watched the beginning sequence up to the Ring of Khafrin. John, did you jump into Rogue One? I watched similar to you, actually. I did a similar thing, but it made me go into Star Wars books a little more. I started, I've read about half of Error to the Empire, not Error to the Empire, but the sequel book to that, because I had already read Error. Right. But I wanted more like politicking in Star Wars, so I went with Thrawn in Legends.

[00:02:38] Well, you should read the Mask of Fear, Reign of the Empire Mask of Fear. It's a prequel to Andor from the perspective of Mon, Bale, and not from Saw's perspective. Fuck Bale after this series. Oh, all right. All right. Coming with the hot takes. That's an X-Wing hot. That's like X-Wing attack on the Death Star Trench hot. Damn. No, Bale.

[00:03:06] I don't trust him anymore, and he's been mean to my friends. See? They changed. He even looks different. You know, he's a totally new man. Yeah. Yep. Well, we're going to divide our conversation into four parts today. The filmmaking and storytelling on its own merits, leaving the Star Wars part aside. Questions of representation and touching on some of the more difficult topics. We'll give some warnings about that.

[00:03:34] We won't get too deep, but we're going to be in and around that stuff. Then we're going to talk about how this fits into the overall Star Wars legacy. Well, not the Star Wars legacy, but the Star Wars... Canon as it exists. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. Perfect. And then we'll talk about the show itself. Alicia, thank you for putting that all together. It's always helpful to be able to fly into a podcast and just pick up and go.

[00:04:04] I get to just sit and be pretty in this one. Yeah. You're editing. Alicia's outlining. I... This is luxury. Luxure. You sitting there with your Death Star bridge... Star Destroyer bridge background. That's right. Don't get force choked. Do not force choked. That's true. Well, so ignoring the bigger Star Wars issues now, let's talk a little bit about the show

[00:04:31] on its own, the writing, the filmmaking, and just as a piece of television, what did we think? Anybody have a burning desire to start first, Alicia or Jean? Jean? You're not Jean. You're Jean. I could be... I could put on a French accent if you want me to be... You could. That'd be fun. You know? Well, since you're already making jokes about my name, I guess I will start. I think it's an incredible achievement.

[00:04:57] I think they took something that was part of a big franchise and they did a unique and original story within it. And I think part of that is that Tony Gilroy is really interested in pulling stories from history, pulling these... In sort of the Tolkien way of fiction, these stories are a way to highlight the truths of humanity.

[00:05:24] I think Gilroy does that in a similar way in his kind of storytelling. He will tell true things about the current life of a human in this society while using sort of the fandom tools as a palette, as his palette of colors. And I love the way that he does that. I think the acting was incredible. There was not a bad performance among the bunch. The visuals were amazing.

[00:05:54] I'm almost sad because I don't think that we're ever going to get something this expensive and this dark and serious ever again. I think this is such a unique situation that they had the budget that they had with the lower viewership of the current streaming wars. Yeah, I hope that streamers swing back to spending on good entertainment.

[00:06:21] I mean, you know, first Wheel of Time drop of the podcast, as you would say, Alicia. But, you know, Wheel of Time... Savewatch.com. Sorry. You're not sorry. Wheel of Time was canceled because it too was greenlit during the golden age of streaming. And it didn't have the viewership to support its budget, according to the executives, right?

[00:06:49] We can debate that day in, day out. But Andor, I think because it was two seasons only and because it was such a big IP, was able to finish its arc. And that is, I think, a fluke. Like, I don't think we're going to get something like this again in the near future. Anyway, those are my general thoughts. Gotcha. Alicia? Yeah, I mean, I guess picking up on what John was saying, I loved how it was firmly tied

[00:07:18] to our real world history. It does feel... I mean, I know it wasn't planned to coincide with public feelings in general, but it sure did dovetail. And, you know, and Tony Gilroy, he is... I mean, he's not someone, honestly, I'm not usually watching his stuff because it's the... I wrote here spy noir, but I don't think it's... I love noir. I only... I think...

[00:07:46] Yeah, it's a bit like modern spy noir. Sure. And he is very skilled in that. And I love... You know, with Star Wars, we're going to talk about Star Wars later, but I do want to see a bunch of different genres here. And this is... I can't imagine a better spy noir Star Wars than this. I just... The production...

[00:08:11] We are so blessed to have movie-level production on this television show from the sets, the costumes especially, the cast, the acting, directing, just incredible attention to detail throughout, you know, with maybe some quibbles about things that can't be changed in scripts due to season two writer's strike issues. But I just... Yeah, the level of detail is exquisite.

[00:08:41] And they created characters that were going... They created characters and speeches and, you know, quotations and world building that we're going to be referring to forever, whether or not you're an overall Star Wars fan or just an Andor fan. Right. What about you? I know it's... Is it your favorite show? You know... You know... I love this season. I think I might love season one more.

[00:09:10] I think that they had a really difficult needle to thread, so to speak, and they did it and they did it well. And I think they elevated the craft of television making in general. And between the two seasons, you know, adding all this lore and creating all this new space and really expanding the universe out.

[00:09:40] But as a... I was thinking about this the other day. You know, if you go to your local pub or favorite restaurant and you get some comfort food and it's good and you're just... Oh, you're just satisfied and content and you're happy. It's not that you're just satisfied and content, but you're just like, oh, I just really enjoy being in this particular establishment. I really enjoy the menu options and the food is just really good. And, you know, they make really nice drinks, etc., etc.

[00:10:10] And then you go to an elevated fancy restaurant where they have Michelin star food. And it blows your mind and you're like, wow, that was really great. And it really, you know, challenged my palate and it really, you know, taught me some new things about food. Where am I going on any given night to go out to eat? I'm going to my favorite pub restaurant, right?

[00:10:35] I'll always remember my time at a Michelin star restaurant, but it's not the food that I want to eat every day. Am I glad that it exists? Yes. Did I really enjoy myself? Yes. Am I expanded and more worldly as a person? Yes. But just from a narrative structure standpoint and the satisfaction of story arcs and character development,

[00:11:01] I really do think that the episode compression, you know, those three arc things, I understand I have no problem with them. I totally understand why they, you know, they did what they did, but it was overall less satisfying because there was so much that is missed. And I really love the concept of negative space.

[00:11:26] I really love the concept of dropping us into conversations and social situations and political situations right from where we need to pick up and focus on what's really important. All of that is great. And there's just something a little austere and lacking in it for me. Okay. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:53] I mean, I, I too think I liked season one better, but not by much. I think they both operated at a similar level. And I think part of why I liked season one a little better is just the surprise of it. Right. Like you can't be something new. Right. You can't get around that surprise. Like, Oh my God, like Narcena, the Narcena arc. Like that was a shock. Right. I mean, I hadn't been really into star Wars in years. This really was my, my jumpstart back into star Wars lore, especially.

[00:12:23] Right. What about the acolyte? Well, the acolyte came after this though. Right. I don't think I would have ever watched. Oh, right. That's right. That's right. After the first season. Yeah. I don't think I would have ever watched the acolyte if not for Andor. Right. Okay. Did you watch rebels and stuff after you watched the first season of Andor? Yes. I, I had only ever seen movies of star Wars before Andor, and even those only a few times

[00:12:48] each, maybe, maybe, maybe that's more than most anyway, but, but still like I, I hadn't watched the, even watched them in years because I was, I was just like, especially after rise of Skywalker, I was like, yeah, I don't know if this series is for me anymore. Now I will say, you know, circling back around the cinematography was pretty amazing. The CGI was seamless.

[00:13:15] There's that whole scene of Cassian and Mon Mothma escaping from the Senate and, you know, watching the limo, you know, shoot off into the sky from a real practical set into a digital set. You know, that was, that was beautiful and flawless. Interesting. I noticed all of our main characters were all humans. And the only time they ever had alien species were a real auxiliary thing.

[00:13:43] Somebody like another Senator that Mon Mothma was talking to, or somebody on Yavin 4. And that's how we know that Tony Gilroy is an Imperial sympathizer. It's not Dedra and Cyril, the characters. That's right. I do have to say too, it's really interesting with Dedra of all the people. Okay. So Cassian and Andor have a fight, right? They have some fisticuffs, but of the,

[00:14:08] the relationship between, between Cyril and Dedra and Dedra almost to a degree more. Well, no, but because, because Bix, but there's a, there was a physicalness to what they, when I just, just remember Dedra being manhandled a little bit more than a lot of the other characters and the whole thing with, with Krennic sticking his finger on her head and stuff like that.

[00:14:36] Well, you know, that she, that was not blocked. That was something that he did on the spot. And so her look of surprise is real. For real. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's great as well is, is that they were able to have a really structured shooting schedule and they knew what they needed to do, but then they also allowed for that

[00:15:27] freedom. It's good too. Right. It, it, it, it, it, he's like busting out of his uniform in some ways. So good. But yeah. And the costumes were extraordinary. They were just sumptuous. The fabrics that they were using. It's like, they didn't spare the importance. They didn't spare expense on stuff like that, which for non, for just like regular television, you would never throw that kind of money and material and production, but these are four

[00:15:56] movies, right? I mean, that's what it feels like is these are four separate movies. Again, I don't think this is getting made again. No, no, no. Yeah. Movies getting made of this caliber. Sure. Um, and, and I think maybe they shouldn't. And star Wars has been really gun shy about making movies since we're, since rise of Skywalker did poorly. Mm-hmm. Uh, and was received poorly. So I, I think that they need to just get people who want to tell interesting stories in this universe and get them a writer's room and get a story going.

[00:16:26] Yeah. I mean, we have so many movies in development now. I hope, I hope. So you say. I hope half of them at least see the light of day. And I hope that James Mangold's Dawn of the Jedi is one of them. Do you see what I'm doing on camera? I'm crossing my toes and my fingers. Exactly. It's like, it's very frustrating to be a star Wars fan in, at this time period. And, uh, you know, the, the, I talked with Tansy about this a little bit on, on going

[00:16:56] on the going rogue conversation that we had was that I think that, you know, Kathleen Kennedy and, and Tony Gilroy are of a generation. Like they are contemporaries of each other and Kathleen Kennedy being a story editor originally not a studio head like that. What she, she came around to being a studio head. And so I, I don't wonder if there's just been some, and I know I've, I've lobbed a lot of, of, um, vitriol at Kathleen Kennedy. She's the captain of the ship. Right.

[00:17:26] So, you know, the buck stops somewhere, but at the same time, I blame Iger more for things, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, but she's the, she's in charge of all of those failed movies, right? Those that, that never clipped through, you know, that, you know, that they announced and then, you know, uh, that's not Iger that's, that's her. Well, I mean, it is because he's her boss and he's the one who's been putting the kibosh on a lot of things lately. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, anyway, we could, you know, let's blame everybody.

[00:17:56] Infinite are the arguments of the sages, but yeah. So anyway, she's still, you know, I, I, so I, I agree with John and in, in as much as the fact that this is a quote unquote black swan, like this is a unusual event in television history, like not even just like, again, leaving the start, some of the star wars to the side of it, just as a television show in general, just getting to production TV made.

[00:18:21] This is a unique, you know, as, as, uh, as, as sometimes described a black swan event, uh, uh, a rare and unique occurrence. All right. Deafening silence. I think you said it for all of us. So why don't, why don't we get into the listeners thoughts? Sure. Uh, Alicia, do you want to read Lisa's? Sure. Lisa's dear Laura Hounds. What a fantastic season of television and such an amazing coverage by all the squadrons. Thank you. Thanks a lot.

[00:18:50] A few thoughts on the season as a whole and some specific moments. I really liked how in every arc, you could feel that the characters relationships are a bit different, especially the ones within couples slash partners in arc one. I had the feeling, uh, that all the characters were doing, uh, quote unquote, business as usual, very much focusing on themselves and their priorities, but always in relation to other characters. In arc two, we get a deeper look into their relationships and how they try to cope with everything that's happening around them together.

[00:19:19] Arc three for me is about all of these pairs drifting apart. Most of this as consequence of choices of both one or part of the couple's pairs. And arc four finally is each character dealing with the fallout, uh, on their own, maybe with the exception of Luthan and Cleia. But then this is also the main theme for the fourth arc for Cleia. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And then we don't have any, uh, happily ever after married couples coming out of this,

[00:19:49] do we? No. Except maybe Perrin and, and, uh, what's his face? His ex-wife. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Skuldoon. Skuldoon. Yeah. Skuldoon. Yeah. I think, you know, for me too, I think that was, you know, going back on, on why it was, you know, my experience with the show is a little different than, than it is with one is because there weren't those through line connections.

[00:20:19] I was really excited. Like what's going to happen with the tie Avenger or what's, you know, there, the, the, the big skips were never, you know, as a, as a modern TV viewer, there are things that I was expecting TV to do. And I think you, again, just, you've got to go back and you get a look at these, like Lisa's describing here. These are these standalone arcs in a way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I agree. It's, it's, uh, in the romance.

[00:20:46] I mean, it's a tragedy overall, but I guess it's feeding into a rogue one is kind of an ultimate tragedy. It's the darkness before the dawn, as I said, in the rebel squadron radio episodes. Right. Oh, you made me almost made you like, you made me tear up Alicia with that. That final rebel squadron radio. I got really emotional. I think she almost made you tear up. I think you were in the fetal position by the end of it. I mean, I made, I made myself tear up, but that's how I had to do it.

[00:21:15] Well, it came through. It absolutely came through. And I think in some ways, maybe your rebel squadron radio was, was sort of my final cathartic moment for the series. Because the, the way that the show ends is like, yeah, I mean, there's some, there's some stuff, but it didn't, it didn't hit the way that I was, it didn't hit like the Narkina fight at the end of the Narkina fight arc, you know? Right.

[00:21:39] Well, it was, it felt very, the last arc was very much like pointing directly into Rogue One. So I am glad that I watched Rogue One all the way through and just quick shout out to the, to the super cast for the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast. I dropped an episode there for subscribers where I talk through how I think and or changed Rogue One. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think seeing it through to the end, well, first of all, the end is obviously

[00:22:08] very emotional, but also, I don't know, carried the weight of things. And I noticed some extra things like, for example, um, climb, climb at the end of Rogue One hits more K2SO shouting it at Cassian and, and, um, Jin, but we heard Nemec shouting it at Cassian in season one in one of the most emotional moments for me. So all these details like that, that have been fed through both seasons of Andor.

[00:22:37] I got a bad feeling about this. I'm going to do a compilation of all the different movies. I'm sure someone has. Did they do that in the series? Tony Gilroy would never. He would rip that part of the script and burn it. I thought that was like a rule. It's got to be in every single Star Wars piece of media. But he decided to break all the rules. Let's talk about holocrons. John, did the, did the structural aspect of, of this season work for you?

[00:23:05] I mean, it kicked my ass. Um, I, I liked it, but it also came in and went way too fast. Like I liked that it was as movies, but I do think it would have been more fun to talk about it weekly and have everybody there. I don't, I hope that people, this doesn't become a trend. It is becoming a trend. Yeah. It's annoying.

[00:23:31] Like we, we got that with, um, with like Vox Machina and with, um, I don't know. I feel like there's been a few things recently where it's like three episodes at a time. Right. See, I would only tolerate that with like murder bot show length, you know, the, the 22 minute episodes that we're getting with murder bot. I think it works with that. But if you're doing a short show, then it's not gonna, not gonna happen. Right. Yeah. I'll try a long show rather. I don't, I don't want to multiple episodes. I don't have the time in a night.

[00:24:01] Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's true. But yeah, that's the thing. That's why it's most annoying for me. Not even just because we're podcasting about it, but because, um, I have to watch it right away because of spoilers, you know, but it's so much, it's so demanding. Yeah. I mean, spoilers are terrible right now. I was at a wedding on Saturday, so I couldn't watch Dr. Who right away. And I had a massive, massive twist spoiled for me just by checking my phone once. Yeah.

[00:24:31] Well, the BBC was putting it out in the headlines like an hour after the episode dropped. Like, chill out. People give people time to watch. It was ridiculous. I, I do agree. That was, that was not a good thing for them to do, but I think it was just, they wanted a big story and they wanted like people back in quick. Yeah. David, I don't know if you followed what just happened, but, uh. But the chatter that you guys have with Ian on the, on our production server, it seemed

[00:25:00] like something happened. I could tell that much. It was a big fucking deal. Like, like, and might be good, might be bad. There was a serious memberberry twist. And I think you would hate it. To be honest with you. Like, if you want to talk about like reusing sound effects. Oh, let me, let me tell you something. You ain't seen nothing yet. On, on the end of an otherwise pretty decent season. As I gather.

[00:25:30] Quite strong season. Yeah. It was fairly good. Although now the fandom is lighting itself on fire because. Well, yeah, I mean, but this is the same thing that happened. I think season one was good too, but it was again, the first episode was the weakest in season one. And the last one was controversial. And it's the same one with same thing with season two. So now people are going to forget that all season long we've been saying what a good season. Well, this is also the, the general structure of, I think a lot of fandoms, but especially Dr.

[00:25:57] Who is that while an era is happening, everyone's like, oh my God, it's terrible. It's never been this bad. And then the next showrunner comes around and they're like, I miss this showrunner. That was an amazing era. And it happens every time. And we never learned from it. Well, it's funny because the other member Barry that everybody loved was a callback to the last era that everybody hated a second ago. So anyway, sorry, sorry to the non-Doctor Who fans, but we have feelings. In fairness, I did realize Tom Baker was in Star Wars at one point. Oh really?

[00:26:25] He played Bendu, the teacher of Kanan in Rebels. In Rebels. Oh, I didn't know that. Wow. The creature that was teaching Kanan. Yeah. Yeah, that was Tom Baker. Okay. I wish he had just squashed him, but otherwise it's cool to know that. Oh man. Just cut off his ponytail. That's all. I don't care. Just cut off his ponytail. You are alone on Kanan's good mountain. I know. Bring the heat that flew through you. I'll convert you all.

[00:26:55] I think it's germane in a little bit though, even though I know it's a quite a little segue into Doctor Who, because a similar thing happened with Last of Us. What would have been an otherwise pretty reasonable season with a couple of good highs and a couple of, you know, it's okay. I mean, when you look at the bulk of the season, right? I'd say it has three good episodes out of seven. Okay. Okay.

[00:27:21] But, but like the, the, the, the low lows were really low until the, you know, I'm talking about the ending here. Right. So, so, which is where and or in contrast lands on its feet, right? It sticks the landing. Well, especially if you see Rogue One as the finale. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. If you don't have Rogue One, it actually might be a weak finale. Right. Like, you don't have resolution for anything there. Right.

[00:27:47] You have to, you have to take and or one, two and Rogue One as a package. But as we learned in the coconut days, you exist in the context. It's true. You didn't fall out of a coconut tree. So, so it's okay. We have Rogue One. Oh God. If only. Okay. Okay. So, Lise had one more additional thought to throw out there. For me, it makes total sense that in episode 10, Dedra decides to capture Luthan on her

[00:28:15] own without, without telling anyone. After all, that's exactly what Partagas told her to do in one of the first episodes. Next time, catch them first, then make them famous. I think this still resonated in her head when she made that decision. And yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah. Especially. That's a really nice observation, Lise. Yeah. It's really good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. That, that why was she in there alone? Why did she have to do the whole thing with the Starpath?

[00:28:42] Why didn't they just scoop him up when he walked into the, into a shop, right? From being out or whatever. Right. No, that she wanted to make a production out of it. Yep. Yeah. That's really good. Productions are hard, Dedra. Stick to what you know. I do have to say, you know, as for as much as we've sort of, I don't know, we haven't piled on the, on the, on the production schedule, the way that they laid it out.

[00:29:09] I do have to say though, I think we did a pretty good job of coverage. And I think John, your idea for the squadron coverage really saved our asses. Oh, I, I will never have a good idea again. It was such a good idea. It's your high watermark. I peaked. Yes. Right. What is the George Costanza thing? Like leave him, leave him wanting more and just like, that's it. Good night. Goodbye. Goodbye. One of the, one episode I kind of remember, he's like at work and he's at a meeting and

[00:29:37] he tells a joke and everybody's laughs and he just gets up and leaves the meeting because, you know, he hit the peak. So, but please, John, don't go anywhere. We need you around. Okay. But yeah, I think, you know, in looking around at how everybody else covered it as a three episode chunk. Right. And I think they were wrong. Yes. We were right. We were one of the few that podcasts that could actually do that. And I think it was, it was hard to, especially being the anchor leg of the week, every week I had to watch it. I had to force feed myself.

[00:30:07] I kind of like, what's the guy in the rehearsal? Nathan Fielder. Huh? Fielder. Yeah. Yeah. In, is it episode three? Episode four. It's episode four. Or when he's the baby? Oh my God. If you know, you know, I won't spoil it. But that's how I felt. That's how I felt every week. Just being. Thank you for that mental image, David. I'll never forget. That shocked the shit out of me last night.

[00:30:35] I just remember thinking, going into that, I'm like, why is he shaving his entire body? Yeah. So he is the biggest comedic genius. I truly think he is. He is a one of a kind comedic genius. We may need to talk about it. We're doing a one shot. Yeah. Everyone put your one shot hat on. So big shout out to all of our co-pilots who helped us cover this week.

[00:31:05] We really, literally could not have done it without you. And I just really, everybody was great about scheduling and everybody seemed to have a lot of fun. And so that was really great. And also thank you to everyone who is a season pass holder and regular subscriber and the new folks who subscribed. Because all of your financial contributions are also being shared with all of our co-pilots as well. So we make sure that everybody is taken care of. If you still want to get a season pass, you can.

[00:31:32] I'll probably still be putting some content out onto the season pass slowly as I sort of re-uncompress from the thing. I've got a little gap before Alien Earth starts. And then we had some really great blog posts. So if you have not checked out our blog, go to our website and do that. Lorehounds.com. And there's a link for the blog. John, and we've started.

[00:31:56] I think we haven't actually officially said anything about this, but we're looking for another platform for publishing writing. We're considering a few. We haven't settled on one yet. Right. We've experimented. But yeah, we want to use something that's a little bit more easy to read. I was trying to read your article actually on the train the other week and just trying to read. Yeah, it's not good for. Yeah. So we're aware. If anyone has suggestions, let us know. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. We're keeping ethics in mind. We just need to know about things. Right.

[00:32:26] Right. And yeah, then I had that great conversation with Tansy. Tansy. Did I call her Tansy earlier? Tansy Gardam of the Going Rogue podcast. And that was a fun conversation. But yeah, I've been so busy with life in general, and I need to get around to talk to the co-pilots because we wanted to make sure that we hear everybody's voice there. And it's a thing of seven time zones. It's like, oh my God, how do I try to wrangle this octopus? The seven-armed octopus.

[00:32:54] But I think I have some ideas about how I might. I may do some one-on-one conversations or I want to avoid a big scheduling morass. And maybe I'll just grab peoples and ones and twos in a way. So I think we're going to take a quick break. Again, if you're interested in supporting the podcast, check us out on Patreon or Supercast. There's links in the show notes for our link tree.

[00:33:23] And then when we come back, we have some conversations to talk around Bix's storyline because we get some feedback from our... Not just Bix, but in general. Sure. Yeah. There are some questions of representations and how things were done, and we get some really thoughtful feedback. And there was some really exquisite conversation that happened on our Discord across the season. And we want to make sure that we spend a little time talking about those things to make sure that we represent those points of views.

[00:33:53] So, all right, we'll be right back. And we're back.

[00:34:18] So we're going to kick off here and talk a little bit about Cinta, talk a little bit about Bix, some of the more difficult story lines in here. So if there's any sort of thing that you want to... You need to take care of yourself around some of these conversations, please do so. We'll have another break before we wrap up the other two parts of the conversation. So sort of skip ahead and look for those if you want.

[00:34:47] Alicia, do you want to lead us off? Because we have this really great email from Angwa Lupin from one of our Discord, a very thoughtful Discord member, and wrote a really nice email for us. Okay. Sure. So she says, I wanted to weigh in as a queer woman on the issue of Cinta's death. I've heard a lot of people, including a lot of people in the queer community, get angry over this narrative choice because of the toxic bury your gays trope.

[00:35:13] However, the bury your gays trope is very specifically a character dying because they are queer. It is not simply a queer character dying. It is toxic because the entire point of the trope is that queer people cannot have a happy ending because they are inherently bad people for being queer, or that is inherently bad for society to have queer relationships within it regardless of the moral standing of queer individuals. It is toxic because it is a reflection of homophobia.

[00:35:38] The counter to the bury your gays trope is not queer characters should never die. It's queer characters should be given the same treatment in both life and death as straight characters. In my opinion, Cinta's death does not qualify for the trope. Cinta is not dying because she is in a queer relationship. She is dying because this is the everyone dies show. To be clear, I fully expect Val to die as well. This was written before the finale. And Val did not die, actually.

[00:36:07] For the most part, I have found the show to be refreshingly without homophobia. Val and Cinta's relationship has consistently been treated as perfectly normal and unremarkable. Where I do find issue with the Val-Cinta relationship is that they have been given considerably more short shrift than the other romantic relationships in the show, all of which are heterosexual. Cassian, Bix, Dedra, Cyril, Mon, Perrin.

[00:36:32] We know less about Val and Cinta, their history, their chemistry, their reasons for loving each other than we do about the others. For a relationship that is being asked to bear considerable narrative weight, that is unfortunate. And I think that this is reflective of the lack of queer voices in the writing room. I have much more of a problem with that as a whole than I do with the fact that a queer character died.

[00:36:56] It also needs to be taken in the larger context of Star Wars media, in which we have no canon queer characters in the saga storyline. And only a few of the non-saga stories and minor characters at that. I have to say, High Republic books are the best for it. But yeah, indeed, this stuff is buried in the books. And then, sorry, this is Alicia interjecting right here. One example of it is the Ahsoka novel.

[00:37:23] There was an important queer character who was also a woman of color. And in the adaptation that Filoni did in Tales of the Jedi, that character was replaced with a little white boy. Are you telling me that Filoni was not quite good at respecting other authors' work? No, not. I mean, he and Gilroy can hang out on that fact. I don't know. Gilroy, he doesn't erase other people's stuff like that.

[00:37:53] Well, he was mad that somebody played with his toys being K2SO and was like, not doing that. Rebels, not doing that. But he was talked into working around the Rebels thing. So, yeah. All right. All right. So, back to Angola Lopent's email. She says, Vel and Cinta are the first non-minor characters to be canonically, non-subtextually queer. Again, I don't view this as a reason in and of itself to keep them alive in the Everyone Dies show. I love that name for it.

[00:38:22] But it puts the- A whole category of show. But it puts the death and the lack of relationship development in sharper focus. Obviously, I speak only as an individual, not as representative of the queer community as a whole. Trust me, we can't agree on anything. But as a queer woman, I wanted to add my voice to the discussion. And I'll say, I have other things to bring up. But in terms of this specific subject, I agree completely. Do you guys have thoughts or responses? Yeah.

[00:38:51] As a heterosexual white man, I have an opinion. With a microphone, of course I've got an opinion now. I want to be respectful as well. But I think that I really enjoyed reading Zara's email because it was a perspective that I hadn't considered. Because I was so readily to take up the trope of bury your gaze. And then it's like, oh, well, wait, actually, maybe, you know, where's the nuance? And where's the, you know, where's the, not just react to trope, you know, or the appearance of trope.

[00:39:18] But actually think through and be present to what is happening. And if there's, you know, if that trope is present and so be it. And if not, you know, actually work through and think through the issues. And I, go ahead, John. No, finish your thought. Okay. The last thing I was really going to say was.

[00:39:37] I felt overall that the Sinta, even though there is a lack of depth in some degree, some degree, in large degree to their relationship. I did really enjoy their onscreen relationship. I really enjoyed this idea of one character who is for the cause and everything else is, you know, secondary. And the other character who's trying to live a balanced life.

[00:40:06] And then who comes out of this highly traditional and very privileged family. And then wrapping that all, you know, and this is spanning both seasons, but wrapping that all up around the struggle and the revolution. And, you know, actually operating a insurgency. So, on that level, I really enjoyed it.

[00:40:30] And when I remember after they kissed on screen, it wasn't for like five or six minutes later. I was like, oh, wait a minute. We just saw two women on a Disney show kissing. Oh, see, I saw it and I was like, one of them's about to die. But, and I get that as well. And for me, I was just like, oh, that's natural for their characters to have had that, right? I was just in the moment with them.

[00:40:55] And so, I felt like that on that scale, that was, I enjoyed their relationship to the degree that we were given it. So, John? Yeah, I think this was an incredibly fair take. And, you know, it's interesting. Representation, it's not about avoiding doing bad things to the characters when it makes sense. It's about treating those characters the same way you would treat, you know, non-minority characters, right?

[00:41:25] And I, you know, not to bring up Doctor Who again, but there was this whole debate again when, what's his name? RTD, the current showrunner. He was putting together this Children in Need special. And there was a character called Davros, who was a very longstanding Doctor Who character. Showed up with Tom Baker. I'm literally watching that story right now, Genesis of the Daleks. He was in a wheelchair, right? Like, he was disabled. Exterminate. Sorry. Well, he doesn't say that. He makes the people who say that. I know. I know. I know who he is.

[00:41:55] I remember. Okay. All right. All right. Thank you, though. Well, the point is RTD erased his disability in this special. And he made him, you know, able to walk unassisted. And people said, well, why'd you do that? And he goes, well, I didn't want to make a disabled person a villain. It's like, no, that's no. So that's not what representation is. Yeah. That's just erasing a disabled character, right? And, you know, it's not that the bad things can't happen to them.

[00:42:25] It's not that they can't be bad people. It's that their identity shouldn't be part of the reason they're villainized. And their identity shouldn't be the reason that these bad things happen to them. Mm-hmm. You know, they should have equal treatment and they shouldn't be treated differently based on the fact of their minority status. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of cries of bury your gays after the Wheel of Time finale for this season because of a queer character who died.

[00:42:54] But for me, that's even more so an example of it's not. I completely agree with Sarah that it's not that we don't, you know, we don't, it's not that we don't want people to die because we want people to be able to have the same. So that sounds weird when you say that. That came out wrong. You know what I mean. Yes. But I mean, this character in the Wheel of Time had such a, for me, a satisfying arc, even if they didn't die in this, at this point in the books.

[00:43:23] I completely understand why for production reasons and everything it happened in the show. And, and they got a really satisfying, yeah, ending or a powerful ending, I should say, not satisfying because the story needs to continue. SaveWatt.com. Anyway, but there was also, I think what we see with Andor is it's, there's nothing malicious

[00:43:47] at all about any of, of this or the, the stuff about the female characters. We'll talk more about it in a minute. Or also there's been brought up talk of colorism. Like I know Sean was talking about it in, in regards to something that happened when a young Clea saw the, the boy in shackles get killed. And he's like, yeah, why does it have to be someone who like my son basically kind of.

[00:44:16] Um, and, and, uh, you know, I have to say with Andor, I think it's not on purpose, but I did notice when I went back to watch the first season before the second season. And we get to the Aldani arc and Lieutenant Gorn and Tamra Terraman show up. And I'm like, oh, I almost forgot about those characters. Like, oh, the only two significant characters with dark skin on this show. And both of them are going to die in a single scene.

[00:44:46] And it's just like, I don't think they're Tony's like, oh, let's kill the black characters, you know? But I think there's just a clumsiness that comes when you're not thinking about it, because everyone in the writing room looks like you. Um, and, and that definitely extends of course, to, to some of the female arcs. Um, Bix is obviously one that's brought up a lot because we go from like, she's ideal

[00:45:12] girlfriend to, she gets trauma, trauma, trauma, which she miraculously gets over with some revenge. And then she sidelined for motherhood, uh, which, you know, someone was pointing out on the discord is clearly every woman's true and only desire. Right. See Dr. Who finale. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Another big complaint with the finale. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. If I can interject a little bit too, it's layered because the, the Bix ending, and this was

[00:45:41] also said by some people in the discord and, and the way that my initial reaction was, was, oh, there's hope. There's something to hope for from here. Right. She's on a fertile planet. There's a baby. Cassian's going off to die. That would be a really terrible, lonely thing. So it's layered on top of the fact that she's been now relegated to, uh, you know, mother at new. So it's like, it's not a complex black or white thing, right? There's, there's many facets to it.

[00:46:07] And so sometimes it's hard to tease those things apart and, and to, to address and identify those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's also, um, we didn't talk enough about Dedra and the choking, which you kind of brought up earlier, but, um, I think, you know, what bothers me there is also what bothered me with the sexual assault with, with Bix is it's sort of the most simplified

[00:46:32] version of someone who imagines like, oh, this must be awful, but hasn't really been through it. So exit, for example, in this situation, Dedra was lying to Cyril. And of course that does not justify what he did, but women who suffer domestic abuse are accused of lying and are choked or have their living room smashed up or, you know, all these

[00:47:00] things when they're not actually doing anything wrong. Mm. Yeah. And that's, that's sort of, I think if there were not even just like a token woman in the, in the writing room, like let's have at least two, you know, so we can have a wider variety of experiences to pull from, to make this more grounded. And so I ended up just, just like working through this question with Andor, I ended up

[00:47:26] putting together a letterbox list of sexual assault story arcs that were done well. And I just, I noticed two things that they have in common. I noticed, first of all, there's frequently a Rashman style structure to the story, which of course Rashman is itself about sexual assault, a bit dated, but you know, um, it is a good way to analyze it because it is a lot about subjectivity.

[00:47:51] And the other thing that every single title that I, um, I put on this list talking to other women to put it together is that they all, they all focus even more on the aftermath than on the act itself. Just the social and psychological toll that takes. And I think that's what we really missed with characters like Bix. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the wave your hands and have some revenge and now you're fine. Yeah. Kind of thing. Right? Yeah.

[00:48:20] But of course, I mean, I loved his badass woman, you know, Clea, everyone loves Clea. Um, but I would like to see her fleshed out as an identity beyond Luthin in future stories. I think it's kind of good that she's on her own. I would love. Oh, she was in charge the whole time. I'm convinced of that. Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. But I want to know who is she without Luthin? Hmm. I don't know if she knows that yet. Yeah. If else can help her find out. Yeah.

[00:48:47] I think that's one of the, the things too, that when she was on Yavin for now and just wandering around in the rain, she's like, I don't know where I am. I don't know who I am. Everything that I've been working and building on is now just gone. And I'm in this place that I don't want to be. And that's one of the things that I really love about Vel's character is, and this goes

[00:49:15] back to, uh, this is slightly, you know, uh, going off topic a little bit, but just in looking at the development of Vel, like one of Vel's traits that I really liked was, you know, Nemec said, give Cassie in my, my journal. All right. And he had her at gunpoint and she was like, no, you got to take this thing. Like she stood her ground. And, you know, it was that, that conviction of character.

[00:49:41] It was that honoring of, you know, of the, of, of her promise to Nemec. Like, and all, you know, both seasons, Clea and Vel were sparking off of each other, right? A lot of friction there. And at the end, who is it that's there to, you know, grab Clea out of the rain? It was Vel. Yeah. Well, I'm saying. And gives her a warm place safe.

[00:50:11] And I just, I love that, that, that Vel's character got that kind of depth to her. Right. You know, and to see that aspect at play, you're going to say. Well, I was going to say, I saw sparks for sure from the beginning. And I do want to compliment the, the handling of Mon Mothma's character, because honestly, in the past, she's appeared in a number of things, but she's been more furniture than character.

[00:50:38] So this time we really got to see her come to life as, as a full human. And yeah, I do wish the one thing about this truncated structure of the second season is that we didn't get more of her key moments and, and we didn't check in with Lyda at the end. Like, that makes me mad. I want to know where she is. I would really like to see more of Mon's character development. You know, she, she has a lot of places to go in the new Republic. And, you know, I'm curious to see Belle's character development too.

[00:51:08] Nothing's going to happen to him, right? I don't remember. Does anything happen to him? He's just going to go home for a quick trip to Alderaan. And I'm sure it's going to be fine. That's right. Just a layover. Oh, that's way to the pearly gates. And it's interesting too, because the, the, the, the balance of the show it's and, or right. It's a, it's about Cassian and about the, the, his big arc.

[00:51:34] But, but we're all, but there are times also where the camera doesn't follow him and the, the, the episodes, he's not even in some of the episodes and we're with other characters. But that these, these major women characters are present. But then none of them are, are as, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how to, they're all there. There's this great ensemble and, you know, some of them are more than others.

[00:52:02] And I don't know how to, how to parse it all. And I think that's the other thing about season two is that I'm, I feel like, uh, uh, Plutti trying to, you know, work the machine to, to, you know, Jack the rhino. Right. There's too many combinations in my head. There's too many facets. There's too many little things to remember. Cause there's so many layers and nuances of, of things in this show overall. It's kind of overwhelming. Well, I got a deafening silence.

[00:52:32] You said it well. Do we have a more on this topic? Yeah. Rocky Zim also weighed in on this topic. Actually. So Rocky Zim sent in a long email that I divided up between the sections. Okay. Look at you, Nancy. Learning from the best. No. That's right. Right. Yeah. It feels like so long ago since we've talked to Nancy, she's such a cornerstone at the beginning of the year. So. Yeah. We think of you often.

[00:53:04] And we will be speaking to you again. So yeah, never fear. Never fear anybody. Does someone else want to read this one, John? Someone else, John. Look at me getting a signed homework. Rocky Zim says, hi. Rocky Zim ready for debrief. I really enjoyed this show and this final season. This was a very heavy season to watch regarding Bix and her story and seeing Cyril and Dedra being cogs in the wheel of the empire. The empire controls and the empire wills.

[00:53:33] So I hear the people who were not happy with the Bix story arc and empathize with people who were triggered or upset with how it was handled. I have worked with clients who have been through similar situations and it was triggering for me, but I realize it's not the same. I was happy with Bix being able to work through it and have a happy ending. I hear the people who were not happy and wish Gilroy wrote Bix's female character better and not use the same tropes. I agree.

[00:53:59] My thoughts for why Bix left Andor was she knew she was pregnant and wanted to leave Andor because, as the Force healer stated, he has a purpose for the rebellion. I wonder if maybe the Force healer told Bix she was pregnant or something like that. And that led to the separation of Bix and Andor. I do wish Bix could have gone with Vel and continued to fight with the rebellion, but I can see her going to that Star Wars Iowa to be safe and to be able to raise her son's last daughter.

[00:54:28] I think, yeah, I think that's probably right. Because didn't the Force healer whisper something to her? I think we just didn't see the end of the conversation. Right, yeah. Cyril was being played by Dedra. Dedra, I think, did love Cyril after he saved her. However, all along, I feel Dedra, like everyone in the Empire, only looked out for themselves regarding career and advancing in the ranks. So she saw Cyril as a tool. Dedra, however, was being used as a tool, too.

[00:54:58] It is the way of the Empire. Each person is only looking out for themselves. The low-level people may not grasp that yet, but soon learn the hard way. But it is about who you know and how valuable you are to a certain extent. And once you fulfill your use, or your superior feels you might overtake them, you are disappeared. Either transferred or dead. The Emperor does that to Vader. Always keeps him in check.

[00:55:26] This is really evident, too, with the demise of Partagas. The guy who's the number one healthcare provider for the Empire. When he, you know, obviously, you know, under his watch, all bunch of stuff happens. There's no recognition of all of his past good works.

[00:55:51] It is, you know, a junior officer, you know, come to take you down to the basement. And that's, you know, we talk about, you know, not only the banality of evil, but that evil sows the seeds of its own destruction. And that's what we see here is that people aren't valued beyond their utility.

[00:56:15] And I think we might see some of that happening as well in right now, in our modern day life. And in Pride Month, they're breaking up. I mean. So anyway. So sad. Yeah. Come for us, reviewers. So Dedra did not care. Sorry.

[00:56:38] So Dedra did care for Cyril, but she could not let it show she cared for him or she would have been seen as having a weakness and would be sent further down the chain. Her getting to run the Gorman operation was not a promotion. It was an assignment so she could take the blame for the success or failure of the operation. And she would not be honest with Cyril, even though he seemed to be catching onto the plan before the actual genocide. And or had the ultimate troll job of.

[00:57:07] If I can just, just really, it makes me think of that line when part of gas walks up to Dedra and says, you're walking a careful, you know, a very tight rope here because he can never know. Really? Really? Like not, not really, really, really. Right. Not only Death Star, really, but, you know, we're, we're using him to be, he is the outside agitator that he's looking for. Right.

[00:57:30] That's a, we're using him in a way that, yeah, would, would really spoil your relationship if he ever found out. And so keeping secrets in your relation, in your romantic relationship, that's going to sour. Right. That's eventually going to, that, that, that is a point of where that lie is going to leak out and taint everything about the relationship. Hmm.

[00:57:59] And or had the ultimate troll job by asking Cyril, uh, asking who Cyril was while they were fighting. Sometimes in hockey, if a rookie or unknown player is messing with the superstar, the superstar will look on the back of the player as a gesture of asking or saying, who are you? I've never heard of you. That shuts the other guy up quickly. Also, I think the empire was going to have Cyril killed anyway, when he was sent into the room with the three droids and the other Gorman.

[00:58:26] Gorman's, uh, I think those were other Gorman spies for the empire. And once the droids were going to be sent to sort of the Gormans, the people in that room were going to get killed first. Hmm. Okay. Hmm. The Siths face the same issue and Bane then come up with the rule of two because he saw the Sith tearing each other apart when they should be united to take out the Jedi. So Deidre, I think came full circle, was raised in an imperial orphanage and looks like she will die or at least spend many years in an imperial prison.

[00:58:57] Yeah. It was a good ending for her. I think because it also leaves the door open. So the war is going to go on for another four years. What happens to those prisoners? The second death. Oh, Deidre stepped onto that floor. The minute the lights turned off. Oh, no. Deidre was gone. I don't think so. She's a survivor. No, no. I think she was like, I'm feeling a little shocky today.

[00:59:24] I will say as a piece of cinematography, that scene though is chef's kiss, right? We see the uniform, the color, the room, and then the lights go out and she sort of shudders. She's in silhouette and you can see her breaking down and crying. And that was what, a two second scene? That was just so good. It communicated so much.

[00:59:46] It really reminded me of the power of visual storytelling and how efficient you can be. So it's good. Yeah. It was a visual masterpiece. Yeah. Any other thoughts before we take another break? I'm having a great time. Let's take a break. Okay. I had my say, but that's the end of the tough talk section. Got it. Got it.

[01:00:16] All right. So we're going to come back and then we're going to talk about. So just thank you guys for listening. Yeah, for sure. And thank you for the conversation that we had in the discord, especially in some of those earlier episodes. There were just watching the conversation unroll and people sharing their points of view. And then other people in the community actually acknowledging and listening and saying, oh, I hadn't thought about that before. Or that's an interesting perspective.

[01:00:46] I don't know if I 100% agree, but I actually see what you're saying and I get it. And here's how I'm reacting to what you're saying. Like it was a really exquisite conversation. And I just want to thank everyone for creating that space for each other so that we could have that level of discourse. I learned a whole bunch of stuff myself. And it was really interesting to hear about like the Star Wars, the people who do, you know, dress up in costume and do all this kind of stuff.

[01:01:14] And like the culture that exists inside of that. That's, it was really fascinating to learn some of those details. So thanks everyone. Anyway, when we come back, we are going to talk about the Star Wars-iness and then we'll talk a little bit about the legacy of the show overall.

[01:01:52] And we're back. A real quick plug again. If you're interested in supporting the podcast and supporting the community, check us out either on Patreon or Supercast. There's links for the show notes. We really do depend on subscriber support. Ad dollars are fickle. And we put a lot of time and effort into this. And so do all of our co-hosts. So if you have been thinking about supporting us, maybe now's a good time to go click on that link and give us a subscription.

[01:02:20] There's tons of great stuff in the subscriber. Only exclusive world. And we'll be producing more as we go forward. So let's talk about the Star Wars-iness and how this show fits into the wider Star Wars universe and lore. And I believe Rocky Zim had some more feedback, Alicia. He said, I agree with Alicia that should have been at least mentioned this season because she plays a big part in the rebellion and the Senate.

[01:02:49] I don't think it would take anything away from the show. We had the Death Star in the show and that is from the main movies. K2 was awesome to have and wish we had more with that droid. So happy that B2 is safe and well with Fix. Sad that Brasso is dead and Cinta. But not everyone can survive. Yeah. Who is it? The Everybody Dies show. I mean, yeah.

[01:03:11] I think overall I've said what I had to say in the main episodes about the lore. I think at the end of the day, the retcons are things that can be incorporated, that can always be worked around. People are already putting together headcanon.

[01:03:33] I think my only real problem is just the attitude with which especially Tony and Dan Gilroy speak about Star Wars in general. I think, you know, we were just talking about this also not to bring up Doctor Who again, but we were talking about this with Tom Baker. And it's just a tougher pill for me to swallow if people are having kind of an attitude about it.

[01:03:56] But on the other hand, I do think that we got a lot of gifts to the overall lore. You know, this show has made the palette of Star Wars richer, especially adding depth to cultures like Chandrilla and Gorman. So I really I think I think Tony Gilroy for the gift of these characters that I definitely want to see in a bunch of other stories now.

[01:04:22] And of course, you know, we already talked about adding depth to road rogue one. We get an interesting we get an interesting overall arc now of, you know, where it goes from and or where it's it's the the people closest to the ground, you know, and rebels is the same that the animated series that takes place around the same time.

[01:04:42] And then we see in rogue one, you know, how we're building successes on top of losses, you know, we're using we're standing on top of losses to reach successes. And, you know, we're standing on the backs of those who burn their lives for sunrises they'll never see. And and then it becomes this more hopeful story as we go through the original trilogy.

[01:05:03] So I think this is if I'm going to rewatch the original trilogy, I can't imagine at this point not starting with and or and watching through from there. Yeah, it is a great move. I do want to say a little bit, though. I understand that that it's not fun to hear Tony Gilroy just like kind of bash the lore a little bit, but at the same time, after. What do you mean?

[01:05:29] I mean, he's I mean, he's just basically it's not just bashing the lore, it's bashing the entire idea of Star Wars. And, you know, it's yeah, it's not I'm not as precious about the lore as it seems. I just don't like the I have feelings that he was very brusque about times and dismissive. And it was like, wait, why are you making the show? Then if you're if you're copying attitude. So right. Yeah, I get that.

[01:05:58] And I also will say, like, Filoni has had his chance to tell a lot of stories. And I he is very precious about the lore in the world. I think the same thing kind of applies to RTD and Doctor Who right now, like a little too precious about the world and not enough precious about the story that you're trying to tell. And I do think it.

[01:06:21] I do think Tony Gilroy is doing a good job of maybe being on the other extreme and pulling the ship back a little bit towards the middle because there's got to be a balance between these two things. And I think that Filoni is far too much on the I'm excited for the member. Right. I mean, I'm not I'm not going rah, rah Filoni right now, either. No, I know. I know. I want there to be a variety of voices, including people like Tony Gilroy. I would like to see them be a little more gracious about it. But I don't know.

[01:06:49] I you know, I loved what Leslie Hedlund contributed to someone. She's also. I thought she was a good middle ground, honestly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I and I can't wait to see these films with these other filmmakers that are being developed. And I love the variety. You know, I love just the last three shows. Live action shows. I really love, you know, and or we have Skeleton Crew. We have the Acolytes.

[01:07:18] And these are three different flavors that still do feel part of the same universe. And I yeah, I just I would love for that to continue. Keep doing that. Yeah. And I don't want all Star Wars to be like and or either. Like, I didn't have fun with the show. I want to say that like Star Wars. A lot of the appeal of Star Wars to people is that it was fun. And this this is not a fun series, right? Like you're not here to have fun.

[01:07:41] You're here to sort of like learn something about yourself and learn something about the rebellion and be touched by the drama. But but not not not go on a fun ride with the Millennium Falcon. And so that's why I don't want it to all be. You know, I see people going like give Gilroy control over all Star Wars. No, do not do that. No, he doesn't even like it. I know. But but I would like to see Kathleen Kennedy, whoever replaces her. I know she's retiring soon, right?

[01:08:11] Whoever replaces Kathleen Kennedy, like give more people a chance who are not steeped in this. And don't don't make do not make Dave Filoni the gatekeeper. I know there's rumors about that right now. I don't know if that's true, but don't make Dave Filoni the gatekeeper. If it's not related to Order 66, he's going to hate it. I think the rumors have come from one place. So I'm not inclined to. I know you do. Yeah, because I've heard lots of other things to the contrary. So, yeah.

[01:08:39] And I don't think that they've been gatekeeping. I think we've seen lots of different creators brought in for different things. Oh, I think with the amount of the amount of canceled movies, I think there's over gatekeeping for sure. Sure. With the films. Yeah, we'll see what happens with the films. Now, that was a rough patch. But if we just look, for instance, of those three, those three series that I mentioned, those were three different creators who I think all did great jobs. Yeah. Unfortunately, one got canceled. What was the name of the two? I guess we haven't heard anything about Skeleton Crew.

[01:09:10] What's the name? What's the name of the guy who's the sort of lore master? Pablo Hedego. Yeah. I, you know, not being as steeped in the lore as either of you. I was fascinated to watch, though, how somebody like Gilroy, knowing that Gilroy was not a, you know, was not precious about it. And he had a story that he was going to tell. Because the lore seemed pretty seamless.

[01:09:38] They did, you know, I know there's a few little hitches here and there and some headcanony stuff. That's fine, right? That's kind of a shippy testy stuff, right? Like, this is all made up anyway. So, like, sometimes we have to, you know, bend things to make it work. I'm fine with that, personally.

[01:09:53] But the fact that they were able to, that this guy and his, and the writer's crew were able to tell this story and then zipper it with existing lore to the degree that they did and add new lore. Or, that's pretty successful, like, you know, no matter what. And as you were saying earlier, Alicia, you know, he really, like, the Chandrilan culture, there was just so much beautiful ritual layered in there.

[01:10:22] The whole thing with the Rakatan invaders, right? And they're like, whoa, that's super interesting. So, or Luthan's backstory. Like, I'm super curious. Like, where was that? When was that? Who was he fighting for? Who were they killing? You know, like, what was going on there? So, they really did press out in a lot of different ways very successfully, I think.

[01:10:42] You know, seeing the Senate in, you know, the back halls of the Senate, all of these kinds of things were, it was really satisfying for a lore, novice, lore newbie, whatever level of lore that I'm aware of. I was really appreciative of it. I mean, I don't think anyone here does or should worship the lore. But I do have to say, it was more seamless in season one.

[01:11:08] Like, they did really cool little things in season one where, for example, Cassian, there was some reference book that named Cassian's planet. And Gilroy's like, nah, I want to tell my own story. And so, I guess Pablo Hidalgo worked with him to, there's just like a line there that's like, no, this is why we told people that you were from the other planet and not, you know, we're hiding, you're from Canary.

[01:11:38] And, yeah, I think that that was really seamless. And I think the reason why there was a little bit more clumsiness in the second season in that regard, for example, like the timeline, you know, with Deidre talking about growing up in a kinder block. And there were some, a few references like that and the whole Luthan flashback, like, when did that take place? And I think that what happened there, and the reason I think this is because the lore master for the Wheel of Time said that there was problems with this in season three of the Wheel of Time.

[01:12:06] During the writer's strike, the scripts were frozen. And they could not change anything. So, normally, these little details like this are things that they're still- Smoothed out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But this could not happen, so you just have to be like, well, close enough, squint and we'll- Right. Rek on it later.

[01:12:27] And at least from my point of view as a casual fan, whatever, you know, the level of fan that I have and the level of awareness and knowledge that I have for the lore, I didn't notice anything. You know, it was beautiful to me. It was, like, really well smoothed out. So, what is the theory on Luthan's backstory? Like, what was that about?

[01:12:49] I mean, I'm assuming that that was around or shortly after Order 66, after, you know, the whole Revenge of the Sith story. Right, events. And that he was a soldier for the Empire and just got quickly- Or he was a soldier for the Republic and then he became a soldier for the Empire and then he's like, this sucks. Yeah.

[01:13:10] You know, I just want to say there are, I think, two kinds of changes, two kinds of, if you want to say, errata for lore changes. And one is trivia and the other is substantive changes. And both Luthan's timeline and Deirdre's timeline feel like trivia to me. Like, that does not fundamentally change their character arcs, the arc of the universe. I know maybe it's a little sloppy on the edges, but, like, to me, that's trivia. I don't care if they change it.

[01:13:40] But I think the only reason why people get nitpickier with Andor is because it is so otherwise perfect. But I think- There's nothing to complain about, so they nitpick on the- Well, I mean, but it's- I mean, I think it's just, and it is something that was not as the same problem in season one, but I just, I gave my whole explanation as to why I think it was a problem in season two and not season one. And, you know, we'll all get over it and we'll have-

[01:14:07] He's left so much space for writers, other writers to come in and fill in the gaps and smooth out those little awkward moments. Perfect segue. Look at us, professional podcasters. What-

[01:14:24] I have a question for both of you on that very topic of what were the negative space storylines, the things that didn't get told in this season, the ones that they were hinted at or discussed after the fact that you missed the most or would have wished? And I know it's a hard thing maybe to pick just one, but I don't know, just pick one, John? I want a Veep-style episode of Mon Mothma. In the Senate? In her Senate offices? In the Senate.

[01:14:54] In the Senate offices. No, if I'm going to be serious though, I really want to know what happened with Will on Saw's story. Oh, you took mine! Well, I can't help you in good. That storyline was, that scene was one of my favorite scenes. The way that Saw was winding him up and, oh God, and just the visual of it and everything. It was so good. So good.

[01:15:23] Alicia, do you have one that's on the top of your list? I mean, I think it's obvious how disgruntled I was that this is a key moment in Leia's story arc. So I'm hoping Vivian Blair, who played her in Obi-Wan, is 13 now. I'm like, you know what? That is time for 5 BBY. Leia's 13 and 5 BBY. Start recording the Leia show that Coe is at the same time.

[01:15:49] You know, though, Alicia, I think that Leia would do great in a Veep style show. Great. Very sassy. I think that that would be perfect because honestly, yeah, she and Mon have a relationship at the Senate and her dad too. Oh, dad, you know, and then laugh track. Laugh track, yeah. Awesome. Veep doesn't have a laugh track. Veep is the insult factory of the year. Oh, okay. That's what they do. And I think Leia would be great at that. Creative insults. Sure, sure. Absolutely.

[01:16:19] Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Yeah, I was going to ask a question at the end, but we should ask it now. Like what, if you could have one spinoff from this show, what would it be? And I guess that's mine. Right. I think the episode that I am missing is Melshi, Vel, Cassian, and K2 on some sort of mission together.

[01:16:48] I don't care what the mission is, but the four of them on a ship under, you know, and things go wrong and keep going wrong. And that's the episode that I, that's the story that I want to see. And that's exactly where they put a, that's exactly where they would have put, I've got a bad feeling about this. Like, that's where I would have came out. And then, but then they open the door and the bad batch is there. Oh, I like that. It's good. The aged bad batch. Yeah. Yeah. They're aging fast.

[01:17:18] We never did see Omega and what happens with Omega after bad batch. No, that's true. Oh, okay. So how about, um, yeah. How about a show with Omega? Well, no, she's going to have to show up in the Ventress show. Sorry. She's getting drafted into Ventress. You're hoarding her for Ventress. Okay. Fair enough. What would, what would be your spinoff, John? I feel like I've pitched like three already. Okay. All right.

[01:17:48] Fair, fair, fair. There's one other scene that I would have liked to have seen though. And they talked about this, uh, in the post was, uh, Mon Mothma going to see, um, oh, what's her husband's name? I'm blanking his name. Perrin. Perrin. And saying, Hey, I gotta, I'm going to be busy for a while at a, this jungle planet. Can you take care of the kid and make sure everything's okay? And he says, I don't think she did. I don't think they ever had that conversation. No. Did you hear this? That they wrote it. They wrote that scene.

[01:18:17] Oh, really? Yes. They wrote that scene and did not film it. And he said, she told him about Yavin. He, he said, she said, I'm not going to be right. I don't know what, I mean, I haven't read the script. I mean, they haven't, I don't, they've released that. But, but from what the writer, I forget, which it was one of the other writers, was it Ben or. I don't remember which one. Yeah. One of those guys, uh, wrote this and talked about it and, and said that they wrote the scene and she went and told Perrin that she wasn't going to be around anymore.

[01:18:46] And he says to her, you could have trusted, I know you're going off to do your rebellion stuff. You could have trusted me the whole time. I was, I would have supported you. I would have backed you up. Hmm. And that's, that's something in the, that, uh, mask of fear prequel novel, which is set quite a while before it's set right after like 18 years before. Um, but you get to see him fuller picture of Perrin there where this isn't surprising.

[01:19:16] Right. Cause they should, there was plenty of scenes where we see Perrin catching a glance or watching an interaction or something like that. And, and I just, I would have loved to see that, that twist of this guy that we just thought was, you know, whatever. And then he turns out to have been a good guy all along. Like, uh, that would have been a great dramatic twist from, for in my, so. No. All right. Uh, a legacy.

[01:19:45] Where will or should this part of Star Wars go from here? And I think, is there some more feedback from Rocky's on this? Uh, yes. And Peter O.H. Okay. Great. Uh, do we want to start with the feedback or, or do you guys have thought? Yeah. Let's, let's do feedback. Okay. Can you do it, David? Oh gosh. Okay. Uh, can I start with Peter O.H. Or should I start with Rocky's in? I haven't read. Whichever you like. I'll just go in order. That's on here. So Rocky's in.

[01:20:13] Luthien did what he had to do. It was not pretty. And a lot of bad things had to happen to be able to start the rebellion. He orchestrated a huge plan to begin the fall of the empire. Kind of similar to Palpatine in a way. Both behind the scenes were pulling strings and making moves to influence people and conflicts. I think this comparison to Palpatine is really interesting too. And I think I talked about it in a couple of the episodes that, that Palpatine, everybody

[01:20:43] was playing Palpatine's game except for Luthien. Luthien was the one guy who was playing outside of Palpatine's, you know, uh, uh, chessboard, so to speak. Everybody else in the rebellion, everybody else in the universe was sort of stuck. There was no move that Palpatine didn't have a counter for already, except for Luthien, right? Because he was this outside force.

[01:21:06] So, but I like the, I like the comparison between the two and, uh, Rocky continues. I love Luthien and Clay's backstory. That would be a cool, that would be cool to explore more at some point. So there is that Rocky Zim spinoff show. Yeah, I guess so. It can be, uh, yeah. Father, father, daughter sitcom. There you go. With a laugh track as they blow up bridges on Naboo. With Andor, he really came together well by the end of the show.

[01:21:36] He slowly grew to caring more about the cause than himself. It began with him meeting Luthien and then the battle on Ferex and caring for Bix and wanting to keep her safe. He was still taking jobs from Luthien, but would still make sure Bix was okay. He kept on saying he wanted to stop and live far away from the war and chaos. As season two went on, there were more tragedies happening. I think Andor started to see how things were getting worse and knew he was where he needed to be. He kept saying, make it count or make it worth it.

[01:22:05] He had the ability to save and rescue people who could help make the difference like Maughan and Clayia. I think he too was also following in Marva's footsteps. I think she had a big impact on his choice to be with the rebellion. Fight with the rebellion. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is pretty accurate. Joan, what do you make of this whole thing where, I mean, Cassian basically chose the Yavin over Luthien, didn't he?

[01:22:34] Yeah, he did. He said so. Yeah. He left Luthien on purpose and I think he made the right choice, right? Like Luthien treated people as disposable and Cassian was, I think Cassian worked with him by default. I don't think Cassian wanted to work with him long-term. He worked with Luthien because that was his gateway into rebellion. But also, he does appreciate in the end, like he was a necessary step. Luthien was a necessary step in this rebellion.

[01:23:01] And Cassian defends him at that council, that small council meeting. Right. And he says, yeah, none of us would be here and it's a, it's a shame to see him being run down by you guys. Right. Who hasn't given as much. Fuck Bale. I'll say it again. Are you going to make a Bo-Katan style song for Bale? I forgot about that song until just now. I write too many parodies. I can't, I can't, I can't be expected to keep them all in my head.

[01:23:31] Rocky continues. Sorry for the long message. Loved all the visuals and seeing the X-Wings and the Death Star. I have many more thoughts and did share a lot on the Discord. So we'll end this transmission now. Oh, keep up the good work all. I hope Jean doesn't tell me to kick rocks. I'm happy to be part of this community. Enjoy being able to chat about all the shows and media and not feel nervous about sharing my thoughts. Judge. No rock kicking in this house. This is Rocky Squadron signing off. Remember, rebellions are built on hope.

[01:23:59] Well, Rocky, we are also glad to have you part of the community. You and so many others who just make it a fun Discord channel to hang out with and have everybody to, same exact thing, right? Being able to nerd out and share with each other and explore and wrestle with these questions. Alicia, when you watched Rogue One after watching this, was the Battle of Scarif just even more

[01:24:27] cool as hell than like, is it the best battle in Star Wars? Visually told. I don't know. I love the Battle of Scarif. The air, the space battle and the land battle, the whole thing. It is cool because it's on multiple layers and I feel like it's rare to have a really well-lit battle. I guess that's not true. Definitely in the prequel trilogy, there's some brightly lit battles. But yeah, it is cool how three-dimensional it is.

[01:24:50] But for me, what I love about Rogue One is the emotional final moments of Cassian and Jyn is definitely my favorite part. Yeah. We get some cool Vader stuff. Yeah. And remember, it exists. I'm not going to say it's my favorite part, but I remember she's excuses. Yeah. See that? Yeah. Yeah. The weird CGI fake stuff.

[01:25:15] I think there's somebody out there on the YouTubes has cut up the Battle of Scarif so it's just like one continuous thing and they don't jump away to other parts of the story. Yeah. And I just, it's so good. It's so well thought out. It's such a fun battle. John, can you run through Peter O.H.'s? Yes. Now that my son has stopped banging on my door. Peter O.H. says, greetings, squadron leader. Leaders.

[01:25:45] Great job covering the show. Still working through all the bonus content. Thanks, Peter. I wanted to write about Luthen and Clay's relationship. I thought it was an interesting and refreshing take on the parent-child dynamic. Anyone with kids will tell you that parenting is trying not to mess up your kids the way your parents mess you up. Meanwhile, you are messing them up in totally new ways. One thing that strikes me about the way my generation, Gen X, was raised is the idea that children must be seen and not heard.

[01:26:13] Children must obey their parents and the parent is always right even when they're wrong. Now that I'm raising kids myself, I do my best to not treat them that way. Kids should have some agency. Kids are worthy of an apology. Kids are allowed to feel the way they feel even if it's inconvenient for the parent. And watching Luthen for all his gruffness and sometimes churlishness, I feel like he provides all those things for young Clea. He parents her with respect.

[01:26:40] When he needs to make an executive decision for the both of them, he will do that because he's older and wiser, but he never treats her as anything other than an equal. Clea grows up to be a capable, confident, and well-adjusted. Not to mention a formidable warrior for the cause. Because Luthen gave her love and treated her like a human being. Contrast that with the Karn family. Cyril's life was ruined from the start. Yeah. I could go on all day about this and a million other aspects of the show.

[01:27:10] I so thoroughly enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but it was close enough. Thanks again for your stellar coverage between the pods and the Discord. Being part of this community was so rewarding. I feel like I have friends everywhere. Unfortunately, I think there are some dark days ahead of us in communities such as this one give me hope. The tangible kind of hope. Best regards, Peter O.H. Well, thanks, Peter. That's a lovely sentiment to end on. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:27:40] Yeah, I think, I hope we see more of this. I think, as I said, Star Wars needs all of the above. What's your favorite character at the end of it, each of you? That's a good question. John, do you have a thought? I'm still... Oh, gosh. You know, I will say this, and it might be kind of cheesy because he's so popular, but Luthan is the most interesting character in this entire series. Like, this is a new character trope in Star Wars.

[01:28:10] And I really like that. Like, I, you know, I'm not going to say Cassian. We already had him in one movie. And he's the lead. So I can't say that or I'm lame. But, yeah, I just think that Luthan is the new archetype here. And it's a character type that I really like. This idea of this anti-hero that's struggling with it himself. Like, he's not a hero. He's not a good person. But he works on the side of good anyway. I think that's fascinating. Hmm.

[01:28:40] I love all... I remember... Love all... I'm just reflecting back as you were talking, just thinking about how so many people were like, is he a Force user? Is this Kena thing? Is his ship, you know? Like, they just did not go near that question at all. I love the fact that they just left Luthan as Luthan. I think that it was so well done with his character. So well built. Well, somebody's going to answer why he cares so much about that Kyber crystal.

[01:29:11] Oh, yeah. There's so many little things that never get, you know, resolution on the screen. Is that your biggest remaining question, David? Yeah, exactly. I think my character has to be Vel. And I think it goes back to what I was saying before about this kind of loyalty and steadfastness that she has.

[01:29:43] She loves her niece, but is horrified by Shandrillon culture. She loves her cousin. You know, she comes from this one world, but recognizes that there's things that need to be done in other places. And she has an arc, I think, to some degree that we can see that's visible. There are pieces that are missing, but there is a wholeness to her journey for me anyway.

[01:30:13] Maybe I'm headcanoning a bunch of stuff, but I just feel very complete with her storyline. And I just, yeah, I think without her, the show would have, there'd be a really big missing without Vel in the show. So there's lots of other characters I like, but then I think about who's my favorite. And I, you know, what does favorite mean? Is it a warm cup of tea and a blanket on a night or whatever?

[01:30:40] You know, I want that Vel to like pull me out of the rainstorm. Hmm. Yeah, I'll say, I'm going to split mine into two. I'll say the character, the character I'm most fascinated by is Cyril because he was so unpredictable. And there were, and I just, he was someone I just kept rooting for him to go the right way. And, you know, everyone was asking me, are you okay? After he got shot dead. But I think that was such an interesting ending for him. It was heartbreaking, but this is the Everybody Dies show.

[01:31:10] So that was, as a character arc, that was like a satisfyingly unsatisfying arc where you're like, oh, he's so close to getting it. He's so close to switching to, you know, having a redemption. I know not everyone will agree with me on that, but he was lowering the gun. There was stuff going on too, right? Before he was, he was feeling very gore, right? Right, exactly. He's like, these people like fashion.

[01:31:40] I like fashion. Exactly. But, um. Was he ever happier than jaunting down the square with his little hat and his jacket and tailored clothes? Yeah, exactly. He felt important. And he would have, he could have had a long, happy life being, you know, a supervisor on Gore. Yeah. On Gorman. And. Can I interrupt you just really quick more on Cyril? I just wanted to point out like on a production detail, his office, the computer terminals, the green, the shape of them.

[01:32:10] It was so good. They had such a great visual look for Gore, for Gorman. And, and what was the name of the city there? Can't remember the name of the city. Anyway. I just, I thought. Sorry. Parma. Parma. Right. Parma. Yeah. Yeah. Parma. Palmo. Palmo. Palmo. Now it's not chicken Parmesan. But I just, they gave Cyril such a great environment to be his character in. So anyway, that's all I wanted to say.

[01:32:40] Just the production design was exquisite. And then he has this obsessive arc with Cassian. And then the last thing he hears before he dies is, who are you? And that's a mystery Cassian's just going to have to live with. Yeah. So I find him the most fascinating, but then the character I identify with the most is Mon Mothma.

[01:33:03] Because she, she, you know, she was trying to be the most moral person possible and, and trying to figure out to which degree does that involve the more violent side of rebellion? And to which degree does it involve trying to blend into the Senate and, and change things from within? And, you know, and then she gets to that point where she's like, well, changing things from within is bullshit. I'm out. Pick me up. Ghost.

[01:33:34] So, yeah, that would be my question. Okay. So I'll combine the last two questions. Favorite story arc and biggest remaining questions, John. Well, my favorite story arc, I think is still Narkina five. I hate to say, but if I'm going to go season two, it's gotta be, it's gotta be the third story arc. I mean that, that Gorman stuff was insane. Like I, I, I was liking the season before then, but I loved it after that. Hmm.

[01:34:05] Cool. And my biggest remaining question, it's his sister. We never, we never really got closure on that. I think the point of it was you're never going to get closure because there was never any sister. The empire was, you know, she was just another death to the empire. Didn't matter. There's a poignancy to it. There's like, you know, for, there is sadness, right? There is loss. There is gaps in our lives. Right. We'll never be filled. Yeah.

[01:34:32] And I think that makes Cassian's character more relatable because there is no, so I need a secret twin. Wait, the book will come out in two years. I'm sure it's not out already. It's not already on the internet. Yeah. What about you, David? Favorite story arc, biggest remaining questions of the, of the two seasons. I would say the old Donnie story arc is my favorite because it's the, you know,

[01:34:59] it goes back to my nostalgia of being a kid and watching those world war two matinees and, you know, pulling off, uh, pulling off, pulling a caper off underneath the, underneath the nose of the empire of the big bads. I think the biggest remaining question, I guess, Oh, let me go back to a season two arc. I really liked the, was it the final one?

[01:35:28] I, the whole extraction of, uh, getting Mon Mothma, like rescuing her and, uh, Nivelle, all of that, that final, I think that final, it's all a blur. So I can't remember what episode is what episode in what block, but basically getting Mon Mothma out and then getting Clay out. Those are sort of the two things that really, I enjoyed the most, uh, in terms of little arcs. Biggest question.

[01:35:54] Oh, well, but now I'm thinking of Marva and, uh, and, uh, and, and Rick's road. All right. Well, anyway, uh, I can't sit here and think about it all night. Biggest remaining question. I have, yeah. Where's the Kuiper crystal? I think maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. I can't think of any. I think the other, other question was Clay's sister or Clay's sister, um, uh, Cassian's sister. Hmm. Yeah.

[01:36:22] I'm, I'm going to go with you with the Aldani arc is kind of maybe my favorite. Um, and I think that has a lot to do with Nemec and that has a lot to do with the eye. And of course that's where we first meet Val and Sinta and, and, uh, we had, um, Evan Moss Bacharach who I was the first time I watched it.

[01:36:43] And when Cassian shot him, I was just like, Oh, like I didn't, I was so shocked by the whole resolution of that arc. So yeah, that one really especially stands out for me. Um, in the second season, I mean, of course, you know, I want to go with the Gorman arc. Uh, but I also, I really loved the first arc, particularly the wedding and Chandrila. That was right. Uh, the wedding, the Chandrila wedding was so good.

[01:37:12] I like seeing the behind the scenes of Mon where she's just like, go, she's like, she had to dance like crazy for how many takes probably. Yeah. Um, I, I mean, overall, I think I just love these cultures that the show built on Aldani, on, uh, Chandrila on Gorman. Uh, so those are my favorite things. Um, biggest, I don't know if it's my biggest remaining question, but let's bring it back to my boy Cyril here.

[01:37:40] I need to know what happened between him and, uh, what's her name? Oh, Rylah's daughter. Yeah. And, uh, what's her name? Uh, anyway, when she slapped him, there was something to that slap. I need to, I need the in-between story there. 100%. We'll call it the Cyril affair. Yeah. Yeah. She, Ooh, yeah. She was not happy with him for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, we still have moms out there. We know the most about her, but now we know,

[01:38:08] also that clay is out there. Bix is out there with the baby and be too emo. I did not expect be too emo to survive this show. Yeah. No, I was not expecting any of them because there's that line in road one where he says to Jen, some of us have given, you know, have given, have given everything for this rebellion. And I was like, Oh shit, everybody's going to die. It's it. They're all going to die. And we only really lost Brasso. So, so yeah. And Marvo.

[01:38:38] And Marvo. Well, yeah. And Sinta. Yeah. And Sinta. Oh yeah. Now I feel like we're. And Sero. Yeah. Now I feel like we're, it's Belle and Cassian toasting to all the, the, the lost comrades. Nemec. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. I was thinking about this too, with Clea. She's, you know, her ostensibly the father figure of her life.

[01:39:04] The guy who she was, you know, organized all around, you know, everything was around Luthen and the rebellion. That's all gone. Here she is. She's, you know, pretty scarred and beat up physically and emotionally, psychologically. And they're going to have to leave Yavin real quick in just a minute. They're going to have to go from this jungle to an ice planet. Like she's not going to get a lot of time for a psychological reflection.

[01:39:29] We need to get her over to Bix on space Iowa so they can chill out for a little while. Mm-hmm. All right. Well, I think that's it. I really did miss being able to chat with you guys throughout the course of the season and sort of from an episode to episode, you know, basis, at least just the three of us, you know, or I did miss that conversation. And there were things that I wanted to talk with you guys about this or that or whatever.

[01:39:58] But at the same time, we had such a lovely group of co-hosts. And so we want to give them all a shout out. Marilyn, Jean, Aaron, Ian, Ron, Luke, and Aisha. Thank you all so very much for jumping in and being a part of this community and flying co-piloting with us on all these episodes. I think we had a lot of fun. And everybody really brought it. It was kind of fun.

[01:40:25] It was cool to bring in all these different perspectives and points of views too on such a diverse show. And yes, some sort of separate conversation is going to happen with all of them to get their thoughts and everything. The Andor season pass is still open. 10 bucks. You get the Holocron lore cast episodes. What do we have in there? We've got Bail Organa, Yavin 4. Yavin 4, the Rakatan invaders, and Legends. Yeah, the Gorman massacre from Legends.

[01:40:54] Yeah, that was a good one too. So all of those are there. You have the Rebel Squadron radio that you produced, Alicia. I hope you had fun because those were amazing. Those were very, very cool. It's like radio drama. For those of you who are listening to this, if you've not heard these, Alicia put on basically like a little one-actor radio drama of being an archaeologist who finds these old radio recordings,

[01:41:24] and then we listen to both the archaeologist person, and then the radio recordings of people from the rebellion of that time period. It is so creative and so fun and so interesting. So I just, kudos for putting this together. Yeah, thanks. It was a way to help me process both how this shapes the story, and also just the emotions. Yeah.

[01:41:52] That's, you know, I would mirror the emotions of each arc, so. And it was, it could have been one thing where we were like, oh, here's a bunch of information dump, blah. But that you wrapped it in story, a story within story, was really so clever. It was very creative, so. Thank you. Thank you. You shared the first one in that sampler platter that's earlier in the public feed. That's right. Yeah. That's available for everyone if you want to get a taste of that. So definitely go check out the season pass.

[01:42:22] They'll probably, you know, maybe get around to putting some more stuff out eventually. I'm not done with a rewatch. I'm sort of coming and going. I've got to watch the rehearsal season two right now, and now it's on. We got you. Mandatory. You're studying the fielder method. It's such a wild show. It's so wild. I'm telling you, there's no show like it. Nothing. There's no show like it. But again, you know, all of the, you know, for everyone who got the season pass, and again, for season pass, you know,

[01:42:51] it's a one-time purchase. You get that feed and that content forever. It's yours. And it's not a recurring subscription. And it's a way to support us and all of the stuff that we do for production. And it's a way to support our co-hosts as well because they get to partake in all of that. Again, Supercast and Patreon subscriptions, they get, you know, if you're a regular monthly subscriber or annual subscriber, you get all of that, plus all the extras that we have for Wheel of Time, severance, rings of power, all of our bonus content is there,

[01:43:20] plus a whole bunch of other stuff like Second Breakfast, Elevensees, our movie club, which we're about to do a Gene Hackman movie fest in memoriam, as it were. What did we do last month? It was, oh yeah, the... 2024. And so we did A Complete Pain. Yeah. A Real Pain. A Real Pain, yeah. That was such a good movie. That was such a fun conversation too. Really good. Yeah. And John, I think we're coming up for June. It's going to be your month.

[01:43:50] Do you have something that you're... I have like three lists that I have to pick from. Okay, got it. So you have to pick from the lists for us to pick from. That's right. That's right. We'll see. Yeah, we've got some MCU Universe stuff coming up. The Sony Spider Villain... What is this, Alisa? What is it? Yeah, so basically it's all those Sony Spider Villain movies that people made fun of like Morbius and Madam Web and the Venom movies and Kraven.

[01:44:19] It's come to an end now. So John and I are doing a power ranking in postmortem in the subscriber feed. Oh, nice. That'll be really fun. That sounds great. And we've got some big movies coming up. We've got Fantastic Four coming up and a few other things, right? And 29 years later. 29? 28? 29? 28, sorry. Okay, I was like, wait, what? 29 years later? John, what's going on in the main feed? Murderbot mostly. Yeah.

[01:44:49] Murderbot's going on. We're doing weekly coverage of that. Doctor Who's gone, so we're done with that. The last of us two. But I've got to record a Silberlian story soon with Marilyn pre-recorded ones. Oh, yeah. You did a good job. I did a lot of them in a row so that I would be good for a while and that worked. But now I'm like, oh, shit, I ran out of the cords now. So somebody just reached out, actually. I got to send them an email. They offered to be on and I'm going to invite them on. So if you're hearing this now, mystery emailer, you're invited.

[01:45:19] I just haven't told you yet. That was a cool email too. I scanned it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Chalorina movie just dropped, apparently. I've wanted to get into John Wick for a long time, but I never have. Okay. Maybe I'll do it soon. I watched all the movies leading up to this, but it's not really my cup of tea. Got it. Got it. But I'll talk about Monkey Man again, which is a similar kind of movie. We already covered that one if anyone's looking for that. So 28 years later,

[01:45:48] you, Alicia, are going to have some Gilded Age coverage, I think? Yeah, I think do a one-shot at the end of the season is the plan. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And Ironheart? And Ironheart, we're going to, they're dropping three episodes at once, and they still haven't told us. There's going to be six episodes in total. So we know they're dropping three episodes at once, and then we don't know if they're doing the other three one a week or all the same week. So we'll see. Okay. And then the bear is coming up and then Superman, that's going to be a big deal.

[01:46:17] I'm sure you guys are excited for that. Foundation, we have to talk about how we're going to do that. Our friends over at Captain's Pod are going to be covering Strange New Worlds, Fantastic Four, and then what do we got? Eyes of Wakanda, Wednesday. There's a bunch of stuff coming later in the summer and the Alien Earth, I'm definitely going to be covering that. And then it sounds like Peacemaker, I think you had a plan. You and Aaron were... You're covering the fall? I'm cutting you off. I'm cutting you off, David. You're already in the fall now. Oh yeah, yeah. I'm August. I'm into August, baby.

[01:46:48] We've got lots of stuff coming up. 10 years away in my perspective. Well, Alien Earth is definitely getting coverage, so get hype because the trailer just dropped. Yes. Let's thank some people. We should do that. Oh, and our affiliates. We didn't talk about the affiliates. Oh. Can I talk about properly, Howard? Yeah. They just launched the new season, the Bacon Wrap. They did a draft of 14 movies. I won't go into too much detail, but you have to go

[01:47:17] and listen to the podcast. They draft 14 movies. They start with a Kevin Bacon movie and end with a Kevin Bacon movie. And they link an actor from one movie to the next all the way through. It's a phenomenal season. They're starting with She's Having a Baby, Big Trouble in Little China, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Those are the first three movies. So stay tuned for Properly Howard. We've got a channel on the Discord set up just for them and we're having a lot of fun talking about it. You put together a whole notion for this season? I did.

[01:47:47] I did. I put together a whole show guide of all the little brofiles of all the movies that were covering in order. Brofiles? Profile. Profile. I mean, I feel like it fits with a Kevin Bacon theory. I don't know. Right. Who knows? Anyway, I'm excited to to see this, to listen to this season of Properly Howard. What's going on with Wolf of Dustin Star Wars Canon? Yeah, starting now finally finish this starting Dune

[01:48:16] coverage book stuff on the and actually you are in the first episode. We recorded it a while ago. Through the magic of the recording timeline. And then on the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast High Republic stuff. Yeah, there's going to be I still I need to catch up on the Young Jedi Adventure season two, but then also doing some there's the new books out for the Acolytes and the comic the Kalnaka

[01:48:46] comic and stuff is going to be talking about all that kind of stuff. Cool. Nevermind the music just had a great episode out on Cindy Lauper song and got into personality types and stuff like that was really fun. Rings and Rituals I'm not sure where they'll be back eventually. At some point. Yeah, and Radioactive Rambling they were dropping some more Fallout lore. This and everything else can be yours too. Just subscribe to all those feeds go to the link

[01:49:15] in the show notes we got links to all the affiliates into all the subscription options. If you would like to email us about anything related to Star Wars starwars at thelorehounds.com and you can send your emails and we'll include those into future discussions. We've got a special whole dedicated forum. We have a whole quadrant of our Discord galaxy available for all kinds of Star Wars chats from movies to book stuff to shows

[01:49:44] everything there. So join us there. It's a great time and we've got a really great community great mod team. Yeah, it's a fun place to hang out with other like-minded folks. Who wants to thank our Discord server boosters? Aaron K. Tulu the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove71, Athena A., Tina LaStue, Nancy M., Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard. Alicia? Loremasters? Oh. Oh.

[01:50:15] And our Loremasters, Martian, John's got it. Michael G., Michelle E., Brian P., SC, Peter O.H., Adam S., Nancy M., Doove71, Brian8063, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Matthew M., Sarah M., Andra B., Kwong Yu, Dead Eye Jedi Bob, Nathan T., Alex V., Sub Zero, Aaron K., Dally B., Mothership61, Narnbles, Kathy W., Lestue, Jeffrey B., Elisa U., Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., Steven N., Julia F.,

[01:50:44] Kali S., Ilmariel, forward slash Tim, Paul K., and Adrian. Thank you, everyone, for all your support. It helps us keep the squadrons flying. Keeps us in the rhino. Thanks, Alicia, for doing the outline. John, good to see you. Stay one with the force, y'all. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback to starwarsatthelorehounds.com and get ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at Patreon or Supercast. Connect with us on Blue Sky.

[01:51:14] Links for everything in the episode show notes. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.