The Last of Us - S02E06 - The Price

[00:00:17] Welcome to the Lore of Us podcast. We are the Lorehounds. We're a dollar short and a day late, but we're still your guides to the fungal apocalypse. This is our coverage of The Last of Us on HBO Season 2, Episode 6, The Penultimate, The Penultimate Price, The Price.

[00:00:35] We're going to start off with our hot tics today before we get into our daddy issues in a thematic-based discussion of this episode. And you can contact us with your own therapeutic daddy issues at tlouatthelorehounds.com or you can chat with us on our Discord server, which you can find in the link tree in the show notes. Hey, check it out. We do a lot of work. We were just talking about this off air. We produce a lot of content. And if you appreciate what we do and you want to show that appreciation, support the podcast.

[00:01:04] Go to the link tree, sign up for a subscription either on Supercast or Patreon and help keep the engine turning, right? We've got a lot more yet to go this summer and into the latter half of the year. And every subscriber really helps us achieve that. We're going to have some more information at the end of the podcast about all of our affiliates.

[00:01:31] And a couple of things I just want to flag really quick. I'm going to be on the Dune Minute podcast all next week starting May 26th. Those guys are a lot of fun and they're covering the two Dune movies minute by minute. Literally, if the scene ends in the middle of a minute, that's where they cut off. They still talk about it, but that's all they talk about. That's like the core of the conversation. So anyway, I got to join them. That's a lot of fun.

[00:01:56] We have also a little bit more and or coverage. We've finished up with our episode to episode coverage, but we're still got some bonus material that we've got coming out and we've got our little roundup. John, I think you guys are about finished up with Doctor Who? Two more episodes. Okay. That's been going strong. Two more episodes after this. Yeah, going really strong. Big reveal last episode. Nice. Like shook the Doctor Who world.

[00:02:21] Wow. That's very cool. And you just wrote a blog post about lore related things and what happens when you change the world. It was a good article. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this actually, I don't want to spoil the twist in case people are watching Doctor Who, but this actually brought back some classic lore that we haven't seen in decades. So this was, but the question is now, are you doing it in a way that pushes the story forward? Exactly. Exactly. So go read John's blog post. We'll go see. I know.

[00:02:50] You've been telling me for how long that I never write blog posts. So I was like, I had an idea and I was like, damn it, I'm going to break my streak of not doing anything. And I actually went and read it. I didn't just sort of let it slide. I appreciate that. Yes. But yeah, we have a blog and soon it will be a super stack, a sub stack. Sub stack, yeah. It'll be a sub stack. Yeah, we're working on porting that over, but we're here to talk about The Last of Us today. So why don't we get into that? Sounds good.

[00:03:16] You are the show only watcher. I'm the game player. So that's how we do our expertise here. What did you think of the episode as your first up? Because I'm very curious about your take because earlier in the season you said, oh, I hope they don't do a flashback episode. That'll be so cheap if they do it. Do you think that it was cheap or do you think it was worthwhile?

[00:03:36] So I'm in this funny position with this show. I think my needle on the record groove here is bounced out slightly.

[00:03:48] And on paper, this episode was really well crafted. It's situated into the season correctly. A lot of stuff that didn't make sense earlier on in the season now makes sense. It's sort of a turnkey, you know, turn the lock on the door kind of episode.

[00:04:10] And maybe I'm just a little emotionally worn out. It didn't hit for me on paper, on screen. No, you know, no notes. Everything was fine. And just for me, I don't know, maybe I think I might be in and or derangement syndrome or something.

[00:04:31] Like, how could I feel for this show? Seems like it's getting some good reception. People are enjoying it. I don't know that it did it hit like a Franken Bill episode. I don't know. That one was so unexpected.

[00:04:48] But I can really see how they constructed the season and why certain things are happening the way. And I know in the last couple episodes, we're like, well, where's Ellie's white hot rage? Well, now some of that stuff drops into place.

[00:05:02] And then we got a little taste of Ellie's revenge, you know, her maniacal revenge behavior. And now we're contrasting that with sweet 15 year old Ellie. And so now we have this contracts and juxtaposition set up for a cliff hammer thing. And is it, are they going four seasons? Did I see a piece of news today?

[00:05:25] That sounds like they're trying to go four seasons, which I have mixed feelings about. I think they should have just done two 10 episode seasons. Right. It would have been done. They would have been done. I really am very confused as to why we got seven episodes this season, because I'll tell you, we have a lot more plot to go. And it doesn't feel like there's a natural stopping point coming, in my opinion.

[00:05:44] From the, yeah, from what you know, the storyline. So interesting. So yeah, so on paper, visually acting, all great. And emotionally, maybe I'm just, you know, my gas tank was out. And we've, we've gotten more feedback on this episode than we've had in a while.

[00:06:01] And it's surprising because I didn't say any dipshitted stuff. And so I'm curious to see what we've got in the, in the feedback bag, but I am also very curious, especially from a game player, what you're thinking. And I haven't been much on the discord. So I don't know, are people vibing with this episode? What's the, what's the general take?

[00:06:19] I think generally it seems like people are positive on this episode and I am too. I think that this was a good episode to do. I, I disagree fundamentally with one choice they made about placement of a scene. Okay. But I, I, I will, I'm going to do my critique up front. It's, it's a minor critique. One, I think they should have not done the tease last episode because I think it would have been much more impactful to just have Joel show up at the beginning of this episode.

[00:06:48] I think that would have been, I think they should have let us sit with that crazy moment with Ellie last episode. Interesting. Okay. And it opened up on this, just like you said, like Bill and Frank was a surprise. Well, you knew exactly what was coming this week because of the end of last episode. And I, and I think that was a mistake. I do. I think they should have let us sit with that. Like somebody said, uh, all right. And this is spoilers for game of Thrones season, like two. So everyone relax. Um, you know, I guess fast forward if you don't want that, but like, what if they cut off Jamie's hand?

[00:07:17] And then they cut to like him and Cersei hanging out on the beach. Like it doesn't make sense. It's just kind of a, kind of kills the vibe a little bit. Now this episode though, you know, taking that away, I thought they executed it perfectly. Uh, there is one structural complaint of the show that I have, which is that they should have saved that last conversation for a later point. Um, there, there are parts of that last conversation that were saved for towards the end of the game in a very meaningful.

[00:07:47] juxtaposition with another scene. Okay. And I don't know why they, they blew the whole shot so early. You know, they, they had the confetti cannon and they just shot it all out. Hmm. Uh, I do think they, they could have been a little bit more judicious about pacing that out. Uh, I, I don't know if it was the right choice to do a full episode of flashbacks or if they should have done like a cold open each episode for a little bit. Mm-hmm. But, uh, overall I thought the flashbacks themselves, and now I'm going to go positive everybody. Uh, the flashbacks themselves were really well done.

[00:08:18] I love the way that they paste it as this birthday, this birthday, this birthday. Uh, I love the addition. A little bit Andor in its sort of construction leaping in. All right. All right. We're, we're cutting you off on Andor references tonight. Right. I need to go cold turkey. That's it. He's sweating. I can walk the beach and, uh, yeah. Contemplate life. It's audio only, but he's sweating folks. I can tell you, we're going to go send him to, what was the, what was the beach that, that Cassidy got arrested on?

[00:08:44] Yeah. We're going to send him to Nyamos. Um, so. East Miami. So, um. Just don't send me to Aldani so I don't have to drink that goat milk. That's fair. That's fair. So, uh, I, they added that scene at the beginning, the cold open, and I thought that was a great choice. We don't get any background on Joel in the game, other than the fact that he was Tommy's brother. Right. Um, and, uh, I, I do like this idea of generations trying to do better. I think that feels very real and resonant to me. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:13] And I'm sure it does to you as a father and a son. And, uh, yeah. Comments when we get into that section. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think overall really effective. It was nice to see Pedro back. He, he really killed every scene he was in. And I, I, uh, this is the way he tears up in that last scene. Mm-hmm. Really, he's just choked up. And I, I thought he really milked it and sold it. Right. And I gotta say, like, you know, me being a little, a little not happy with Bella Ramsey

[00:09:40] through the last couple episodes, she does nail young Ellie. Like, she is really good at playing young Ellie. And I remembered what I liked a lot about her in season one. Right. Right. And I'm, I'm wondering if we should have, because, you know, we've done that in Game of Thrones. I'm wondering if we should have just done one actor for season one and one actor for season two. Mm-hmm. Interesting. You know? I don't know. Age them up four years. It's, it gets tricky, right?

[00:10:08] Cause they're, they're being a little tricky with this script and with this season construction. And I'm glad, I'm glad to see them doing that kind of stuff. But then like, they could get too tricky by half and then it would just, you know, sour the whole thing. So it was a big gamble, I think, putting this episode in at number six and then setting up a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't pay off until now. Yeah.

[00:10:37] That's a gamble on scripting and stuff. So, yeah. It feels like this is episode six in a 10 episode season, right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, it feels like we have a lot more runway on this season. I'm very confused. Like, do we know if this was a budget thing or if this was a creative decision? I feel like this was a creative decision. I would say that given that they're in the house of Max, HBO Max. It's HBO Max again. I know. I'm, uh, anyway.

[00:11:05] We're allowed to say HBO again, everybody. It's not, not, not TV anymore. Make HBO. Nevermind. I'm going to stop myself there. Uh, HBO is generally, I would say generally good at letting creators call those shots. Right. They're going to work. They have a good development team. They work with people. Obviously, there's constraints for seasons and schedules and all kinds of stuff.

[00:11:30] So, um, you know, I would hope that the creators felt good about the decision, whether it was instigated by them or if it was instigated by the head office. But it is kind of a weird thing because we are really going to pull up short here. And then if they're talking about four seasons, that makes me a little nervous because then what are they going to do? They're not, they're not in on three yet. Right. They broke the season. Have they started shooting? I don't know. I don't know where. Yeah. They're supposed to start shooting next year. Okay.

[00:11:58] And I'm, I'm like, uh, wait. I, I, I am not understanding. This is a topic for like second breakfast, but I'm not understanding why we're getting shorter seasons with longer production time. Yeah. Right. I understand that there are special effects, but that's been a thing for a long time and things get faster and cheaper over time. I, I don't. Well, when you got big names and scheduling and, uh, you know, a Pedro Pascal is a big in demand. Right. So.

[00:12:24] I know, but like, man, it is hard to get back into a show after two years and only seven episodes. It's true. And I mean, if it were, if it were like two years on the nose, boom, boom, I think we could handle it. Um, a little bit. But even that, it's two years. Like that is a lifetime. That is a long time. Hey. If I told you that 10 years ago, you'd have been like, no, that's nuts. They're never going to do two years in between seasons. That's never going to be the norm. That's going to be an aberration.

[00:12:47] But as a podcaster, I don't necessarily mind it because it's longevity for, for us in a way. Okay. I've finished the wheel of time until my eighties. Well, we got plenty to podcast about that. All right. So, uh, let's get into the episode breakdown. We've got the cold open. And in 1983, Tommy Miller worries his dad will punish him with a beating.

[00:13:17] His older brother, Joel promises to take the belt for him. When their dad comes home, Joel tries to deflect the blame towards himself, making his dad angrier. Just then Joel's dad decides to share a beer with his son and talk about his abuse at the hands of his own father. He tells Joel, he's trying to do better than that. And maybe Joel can do a little better than him. So what'd you think of this? Uh, I love Tony Dalton. I could watch, uh, Tony Dalton. You don't read phone books anymore. So what do you do?

[00:13:45] What would be, uh, I, I could watch him painting a fence. I don't know. I heard somebody talk about, uh, Karate Kid today. Uh, I love Tony Dalton and I would watch him do anything. So I was very happy to see him. Are you going to watch Karate Kid Legends? Uh, I heard that that's coming up. Is that, I don't think Tony Dalton did it though. I think it's a standalone movie. Okay. I don't think you need to watch Cobra Kai for it. Okay. We'll see. I, I, I, I don't know. We'll see. Uh, uh, I'll have to, I haven't seen any trade. I haven't. It's Ralph Macchio. Like you got the guy. Yeah.

[00:14:14] But you know, that's the thing about us when we get older, we don't necessarily. Oh, he's a vampire. He hasn't aged. Oh really? And he's, he's like 65. So I thought I was bracing for a difficult scene and I really didn't want to watch any intergenerational violence being met out by, you know, anybody.

[00:14:44] So when he cracks the beer, when, when young, um, Joel says, you're not going to like, he, he, he just steps up and he says, this is the way it's going to be. You're not going to do that thing. And his dad is like, okay. And he gets the beer and they sit down. I, I, it, that whole moment turned for me and I was relieved, uh, to not have to, to witness things.

[00:15:10] They, they, they subject us to some pretty crazy shit on this television show. And I was just like, can we just not have any, like, I don't mind the crazy culty stuff, whatever. Okay, fine. But like home light, like I, can we just be peaceful, please? Can we not do that? So I, I liked that. I did like the shot of the watch when he puts his hand on his shoulder and he walks out. I saw you post that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the watch and we haven't seen much of the watch.

[00:15:37] It's funny too, because we've, uh, Aisha and I were talking about this on Andor and I was talking about this today on a, on a bonus episode with Kavanaugh and it's come up in a couple of other places. There's a lot of conversation around parenting issues these days in the lower ground conversation space. So, and I, and I was thinking of you too, in terms of the, that whole conversation that we have of scripts that we follow in terms of, uh, how our gender norms are, are put down and what we pick up. And, and he talks about that. Yeah.

[00:16:08] I mean, it, it was kind of crazy. Look, I'm, I'm just gonna be clear. My dad did not like beat me, beat me. He like hit me a couple of times, but nothing like that you would classify as like abusive. Sure. I was spent regularly. Yeah. Well, I w I was not thankfully, but you and I are, you know, 15 years apart, I think. Yeah. Yep. At least. And, uh, maybe, maybe 60 years apart. I don't know. It could be anything. Um, so I graduated in 87, if that, from high school, if that gives you any sort of, uh, indication. Yeah. Yeah. So 70 years apart.

[00:16:38] Um, anyway. So, um, yeah, I, I, you know, I've never, never once even thought about in my kid. I can never imagine. I could, it could not. It's the furthest thing from my mind. Exactly. It would destroy the trust relationship. Exactly. It would just completely. Yeah. It would be horrible. But I remember, and, and like, again, like my dad was not like a heavy duty hitter. This was once or twice. Yeah.

[00:17:04] Uh, but I remember having a conversation with him when he was being kind of like nasty to me. And I was like, why are you doing this? And he, he like sat me down and had like almost this exact conversation of like, like I was like, oh my God, I've had this conversation where he was like, he taught, he told me a story. He's like, one time I spoke up too much in a store and my mom just cracked me on the lip and I started bleeding. Wow. And I don't do that. And, and you're going to do better than me. Yeah.

[00:17:34] And I was like, wow, that, that was a real conversation I had. And there was sort of on screen-ish. I know. I was like, damn. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's an important part of this episode too. As modern parents, there's a whole industry that serves our fears and our concerns and solves our problem.

[00:18:01] One of the biggest myths for me was that potty training is not, um, it goes on. There are, you, you, there are things that go on after the quote unquote learning how to use the toilet without a, uh, uh, you know, just in terms of basic bladder control. But there's a whole range of other things that go on in terms of hygiene and, uh, other stuff that it doesn't end in a moment. Right. So it's not like, oh, check Mark done. And all these different methods and stuff.

[00:18:31] Yeah. I know we've got a, we each have to sort of adjust to our children and what we know, but there's a whole industry that just feeds that voraciousness of how do I do this? And what method should I choose? And, you know, what do I think about this kind of stuff? And on top of all that underneath are all those scripts, the kinds of things where you realize, oh my God, I sound like my parent in this situation. Yep. Yeah.

[00:19:01] Don't hit your kids. Don't hit your kids, everybody. That's our PSA for this. Right. Uh, but, but yeah, I mean, so aside from real life parallels, I do think that this sets up Joel's character really well. Sure. I think that this sets up who he is. He's a protector and he's trying to do better than his dad. Yeah. Interesting though. I mean, he ends up a way worse person than his dad overall. Right. Like, yeah, his dad might be, you know, he might, might hit his kids.

[00:19:28] Uh, but Joel will kill mass murder people. And, and overall, I think probably, probably Joel's dad had a better positive impact on the world than his son did. Right. I mean, he literally tortures a guy by like prying his kneecap open to find out like a map location thing. Right. Like, yeah. By God. That's, that's terrifying. Joel's not a great guy. Do you think his dad's name is Joel too? You, I noticed his, his name tag said Jay Miller. Oh, that's a good point. Is it Joel Jr.? Would you?

[00:19:59] Yeah, I think, I think it is. Okay. Okay. Cause he's the elder son. It would make sense. Sure. It's possible. Yeah. Sheriff Joel Miller. Uh, he was just, he was police department. He was a sheriff. I'm calling him sheriff anyway. I want to call him the sheriff. My, my in-laws, every time I go over there, they watch some show that it's just like the cops driving around doing their jobs. It's some like 60s show. And, uh, every time I go over there, I'm like, oh look, it's the cops doing their job. And they, they laugh at me. They're like, it's, it's a better show than that.

[00:20:28] And I'm like, no, it's the cops doing their job. Do me a favor and find out what it is. I'm very curious. I'll find out for you. It's okay. I'll let, I'll let you know. I'll figure it out. Next time I'm there, I'll, I'll figure it out. Cause there is a part of, uh, that TV watching era where, well, you know, there's, there's, um, Perry Mason type stuff and iron sides and whatnot. You got the Andy Griffith side of it, you know? Yeah. Andy Griffith, you got the Rockford files.

[00:20:55] Uh, but then there was, oh, what was the one about the LA police department? There's one where it's just showing the cops doing their thing. And it's, it's very much propaganda. I mean, yeah, this was a fictional show. It was like one day they're just like, the cops just like driving by. He's like, I think I'll buy some art from this yard sale. I really need to know what this show is. Like they'll just have it on. And sometimes I'll, I'll tune in and I'm like, this is just, just cops like driving around solving crime. Right. All right.

[00:21:23] Um, I think this sets up the episode a while. That's, that's all I want to say about this. Anything else you have on this one? No, I'm not really. All right. Let's take our first break and we'll come back and get into the birthdays.

[00:21:53] Ellie's 15th birthday is next. So, uh, we, we, we get a bunch of birthdays here. The first one is their first one in Jackson, a couple months after they move in. So the day before Ellie's 15th birthday, Joel's Joel trades Seth some Legos for a vanilla cake. Ellie intentionally burns her arm on a hot pot to cover her bite scar because she wanted to wear short sleeves again. On her birthday, Joel presents her with a guitar that he refurbished and plays future days by Pearl Jam.

[00:22:23] So Bella was hilarious in this. She was, I love the cake part when, uh, when he goes, I hope Seth bakes better than he, that, that he spells her darsh. And when she was, uh, stoned on the painkillers, she's like, Oh, like all of that was hilarious. And I think it did a really good job of setting up the sweet Ellie to contrast with the maniacal Ellie. Yeah.

[00:22:51] And I think that's a big part of this episode is, is okay. We got a taste of, uh, super revenge Ellie on super revenge mushrooms. And now, um, we, we swing back. So they're trying to get us to really get those wide orbits of like, whoa, that whiplash of like, whoa, Ellie has come a long way. I think it's interesting too, that, you know, we, we ended last season on that, like very pivotal promise me or swear it.

[00:23:21] And she, you know, okay. Where, where they're just like confronting what just happened and they're about to go down and it's, it's a pretty serious moment. And then we start off this season with her beefing with Joel and we never really get to see them being Ellie and Joel together. Right. And this is the first time we get to see that. So it's so refreshing to be able to see that again. Right. And I think it just feels like a breath of fresh air after, after these episodes that, that have a lot of darkness in them.

[00:23:46] And considering that this is just after they've gotten there, they're getting settled down and they had, you know, after their journey across the country and, and obviously the big lie, just to see some norm normalcy in their lives to sleep in a bed that's safe and secure, are not worried about Raiders or Clickers or something like that. It was, it was really nice just to see them as Joel and Ellie. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:14] So, uh, our old friend Seth is back. Yeah. We, we love Seth, don't we? He has no, no faults at all. But, uh, he's great at spelling and everything. Happy birthday, Eli. That was funny. I was wondering too, when the, the whole trade, uh, negotiation of, okay, you got something for me and we're like, oh, Joel's back to his old ways. Is he, you know, dealing drugs in Jackson bag of Legos?

[00:24:44] Like that was perfect comedy. However, they came up with that gag. It was great. I didn't even think about the drug thing. I just thought it was funny when, when he goes, uh, how, how, where'd you find that? Oh, I found them in these houses. Well, I searched those houses. Yeah. But I know where to look. I was a smuggler. I was a smuggler. Yeah. I wasn't always a cook. And it's like, he just feels so threatened by Joel. Right. Right. So perfect. And then of course, like, okay, what is he trading for? So that was a nice little setup payoff, uh, situation that they built. So. Yeah.

[00:25:13] I thought it was ice cream for some reason in my head. Okay. Yeah. Vanilla chocolate. Yeah. Yeah. I also didn't know it was her birthday yet when, uh, when, when we got there. So. Right. Once, once we found out it was her birthday the next day, I was like, all right, a cake. That makes sense. That makes sense. It, it, it, I always feel too, like the guitar thing is a little bit more the parent pushing the thing that they like on the kid, as opposed to the kid really like, no, that's my thing. That's my jam. Literally.

[00:25:43] Now he promised her last season to teach her. I know, but she, yeah, she just never seems so enthusiastic about it. I mean, now it's like a thing because Joel's gone and, you know, everybody, you know, anybody who plays a musical instrument, especially a guitar, like it's really good for your, your romance life, you know, being able to serenade your, uh, your intended. So, uh, I just don't, I don't know. Maybe it's, I don't know if it's me or not, but I just never feel like she's that into it.

[00:26:14] Okay. I, I, I think I'm biased because of the game. I think she seems more into it in the game. Sure. Uh, as she was more, I think she was more excited upon receiving it in the game too, but I, I do enjoy that she flips it on him and says play. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, and what's great about the scene is she says play and sing. And you know that Joel would never do this for anybody else, but if she asks, he doesn't even argue. Right. And I like, I like the way that Pedro Pascal performed it, which that sort of talky singing

[00:26:43] way that he did it. Yeah. That was cool. That was, uh, that felt, that felt in character. That felt right for the character. This wasn't him trying to like sing at the opera. This was. Right. This was him trying to do as little singing as he could while giving it his honest effort. And nor did they dub it. Right. Nor did they fake the, nor did they fake the performance by him. Right. You know, the good playing the guitar, one thing, but actually sort of doing the singing thing that, that felt like, okay, cool. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

[00:27:12] ADR is pretty good now. So true. I don't know. I never know. They fooled me before. Do you know, do you know ADR originally started as, uh, something for like pop singers to, uh, to be able to like sync their harmonies up to? Oh, cool. Like Britney Spears. Okay. Yeah. Britney Spears would sing one harmony and then she'd record the others or somebody would record the others. And then they would, they would use ADR to sync them up so that it was all one voice basically. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Weird. Weird.

[00:27:41] Uh, I just assumed that that was multi-track, but not ADR. So I was just learning the other day from an upcoming, uh, and or related conversation I'm going to have with the producer of the Going Road podcast. I was listening to her podcast talking about ADR and how, how common it is. Yeah. And how it's built into movies now and everything that you, you just have a certain amount of ADR budget and time set aside. Yep.

[00:28:10] But that is what it is, right? Yep. Uh, what do you think about future days by Pearl Jam? We've, we talked about it in the first episode cause that was the title of it. Uh, again, they, this song didn't exist in 2003, right? That's what yeah. 2003 when the world ended in this, but they decided that the song was so important to the game that they were going to ignore that and pretend it was. That's fine. They play loose with, uh, geography all the time and the way that cities look and stuff.

[00:28:37] So I don't mind them moving around details as long as it works for the story. Right. Medium message kind of thing. Yeah. They were, they were deliberately were like, Oh, we're not going to care. We're just going to do it. It's fine. It's fine. I mean, they, they have old growth forest in Seattle, in Seattle. They have, you're never going to get let go of this. Sorry. Uh, well, they had a big farm right outside of Boston, uh, in season one that, that was, that's not, uh, at all accurate. It's been 20 years. It's been 20 years of over. No, that was not that.

[00:29:06] Anyway, though, where, where, uh, where her mother, where, where she was born, where, um, where Ellie was born anyway. Oh, I don't know how close that was actually to Boston. They showed Boston in the skyline. Well, I don't know anymore. It's been a long time, David. It's been two years. More than two years. More of the seasons closer together. If you want us to remember. That's right. Okay. Let's move a year ahead to Ellie's 16th birthday. And I did better. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that sass.

[00:29:35] Joel surprises Ellie with a trip to the museum on her 16th birthday. Her mind is still reeling from a T-Rex statue when Joel shows her the space museum feeding into Ellie's astronaut dreams. He tells her to pick a helmet and brings her inside the shuttle. Then he takes it to the next level by giving her a cassette of the Apollo 11 launch and letting her imagine being there. So my big question is, why isn't, okay, once she's had her big birthday surprise, this should

[00:30:05] be a, um, thing that all the kids of Jackson should be able to go to, right? You know, like make it safe, make a safe corridor. Uh, like that's a really cool facility to teach, you know, pre pre pandemic history. Like that's important. I think it's a couple of things. Well, I'm just joking. I mean, I know the story. So I, I think, I think one, Joel wants to keep it special for him and Ellie. That's pretty special. He's not going to tell anybody about it now.

[00:30:33] Uh, but the other thing is, uh, I think it's pretty far away. Like Joel, Joel was like gallivanting around while on patrol. Right. And, and he's just leading her there. What did you think of this? So I want to tell you the, um, the, the visions of space around her. They did the exact same thing in the game. That was like shot for shot. They just, they, they had her just imagine space and they showed the design around her. Did you like the way they did that? Yeah, I thought it was fine.

[00:30:58] I, I, um, it didn't, I don't know. It didn't, it didn't move me in any particular way. I just thought it was cool and I appreciated it. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I don't know. It was a, it was a nice character beat. I actually don't have a lot to say about it. I love that part because this is something that like is completely out of, like when you're a kid today, it's, it's not out of reach to become an astronaut. It's hard. It's, it's very unlikely. Sure.

[00:31:27] But you could do it if you really put your mind to it and you got the skills. And this is something that has become impossible in this world. And Ellie for a moment gets to live like a normal kid in this world. I think that's beautiful. And it's been a through line in their journey and conversation. Right. So that was cool. And I think somewhere earlier in the season, she, when her and Dina are, are going into the supermarket or something like that there, they knew it. There's a line somewhere. Yeah.

[00:31:56] Ellie drops a line about, uh, astronaut stuff. And I was like, wait, wait, that's kind of weird. But again, I think that's the whole construction of the season is everything funnels into this episode. So. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, the whole first season we kept hearing endurance survive, right? Yeah. But that's not enough to live, right? You need to dream too. And in this world, everyone's dreams have been shattered. The biggest dream they have is just a safe community. And even that is basically impossible to maintain.

[00:32:25] We saw that Jackson get decimated this season. And so for a minute, she gets to be a kid in dream. And I think that that's a really beautiful moment for Ellie. Kind of makes me think of another topic that keeps coming up in the, in the conversation space is that the whole idea of, um, I'm dear and Estelle, the different kinds of hope. And, uh, maybe this is slightly tangential, but yeah, I think like, like what you're saying

[00:32:50] is that she gets to let go for a moment and let this world literally in her mind, leave this world behind and go up into space. And that without those kinds of escapes, I don't know. I guess sometimes I think that's what Lorehounds is a little bit. It's a, it's a place where we can kind of come and escape the world and nerd out and have some fun. So. Yeah. Yeah. We are actually saving you all right now. Are you in your car right now?

[00:33:18] You've been, you've been saved from the world by the Lorehounds. We've even had people who, I forget who it was, somebody in Canada and they had some power outage issues and they went and sat in their car to listen to the Lorehounds. Well, that's nice. Yeah. Did you remember that? We got that in that feedback. I remember. That was a while ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was fun. Well, um, I, I love this scene. I think it's one of my favorite birthday scenes for Ellie. Uh, I, I, I adore this scene.

[00:33:46] I'm going to say because you're not being hot enough about it. So I will. I'm not. And, and, and it's, yeah, I, I, um, we got to detox you from Andor. I think so. I think that's the problem. I think you would have liked this better if you didn't just finish Andor. It's been a lot this year, man. Yeah. A lot going on. I know. I know. Uh, well, I, I really enjoyed this. I think, um, it's fun that Joel lets her like throw a rock through the window. Like he hands her the rock. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:12] There's a lot of little moments in this that really detail how well he knows her. Smells like space. Yeah. And, and how much, I mean, the fact that he was able to find a tape of the Apollo 11 launch, I don't know how he found that, but. My headcanon is that he found some stuff in the museum and then like had to do some trades and some other finagling with maybe some other people in town to get the right equipment and do some stuff.

[00:34:40] But I mean, if you think about it, he, he greased the, the, the gears of that thing. Were there any infected in there? You know, he, he did a lot of prep work to make all this happen. So. Yeah, he did. Yeah. And I think that's great too. Cause that really. So then this is one of the other things. Well, let's save it for, for the, for when it comes up, but this whole idea of that, I'm not your kid. You're not my, you know, the who that there's a, yeah, there's some conversation there.

[00:35:09] Cause, cause you are her, like you guys have formed a unit, you know? And I, I, I, I don't like the fact that they rejected each other sort of in a way or she rejected him and then he let it be that way. I'm like, no, you, you guys are family. Well, he rejected her in season one and now she rejects him in season two as a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that's cool, man. That's not cool. Certainly not. Certainly not.

[00:35:37] So I guess let's move on to Ellie's 17th birthday. Joel gets a cake, a chocolate cake, might I add for her with her name spelled correctly only to find Ellie fooling around with cat in her room. He also sees her new tattoo over the bite and a burn injury. I'm sorry. Over the bite and burn injury. In the middle of the night during a storm, Ellie tries to move into the garage. Joel stops her, but he agrees she could use some independence and tells her to

[00:36:06] give him a few days to fix up the garage. Loved seeing cat back there. I'm 19. He just gives her the death stare like GTFO. He's like, not the point. So yeah, a little bit, a little, little old minded attitudes here. You know, Joel. Oh, I think it was, I actually don't even think it was a woman, women thing. I think it was just anybody, anybody. He didn't want any, anything with.

[00:36:35] No, he said experimenting with girls. Oh, you're right. He did. Okay. Yeah. He was a little homophobic there. Yeah. A little, a little bit. And we, we did gloss over before. It was a little bit. Before I think it was on her 16th birthday. He had said, oh, what's up with Jesse? You know, you like him. Yeah. And, and she goes, he goes, I have an eye for these things. That was great. You kind of don't. Yeah. You kind of missed the picture here, dad. Yeah. You don't have an eye for these things, Joe. Joel. That's pretty cute. Whatever your name is.

[00:37:05] It was good. Yeah. I don't know. This is all pretty straightforward and, you know, 17, you know, sort of age appropriate. And then it gets, this is where it gets into the, I'm not your kid thing. Well, if you're not his kid, then just actually move somewhere else in town or something. I don't know. But she makes a good point, right? It's not his house. It was gifted to them. Sure. Sure. And yeah, what is, what is ownership in the collective of Jacksonville? Right.

[00:37:35] So does he own shares in the co-op? All these Texans living in a socialist co-op. Yeah, exactly. Co-op. Exactly. Uh. So, uh, it's, you know, and that's the, that is a snarky teenager kind of thing to say. Oh, absolutely. Right. That's a perfect teenager throw it back in your face kind of moment. So. But, but you see Joel being better than his dad and saying, you know what? You're 17. You're right. Yeah. Get some independence. I'm going to. Yeah. He said, let's do it the right way.

[00:38:05] I'll clear out the garage for you. I'll set up the water, you know, whatever we need to do. He does it for her too. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, I'm going to do it for you. And I, I think that was the exact right move. He didn't fight it. Right. He, he may have had a gut reaction that was wrong. Yeah. But, uh, he, he fixed it. And I think that that's important. And this goes back to those scripts that we've followed when, as parents, we keep getting

[00:38:29] confronted at different stages when our kids are trying out new behaviors or they're hitting new developmental milestones. And then we need to parent and do all kinds of. And recalibrate yourself. Yeah. You have to, and stuff comes out that you don't know is there. Mm-hmm. So it came out of his mouth because that was an attitude that was the norm at one time. And then he's like, oh, uh, did I say that?

[00:38:59] Do I, do I really think that? Do I really believe that? Do I want to think that about my kid? And, and fortunately he, you know, he doesn't double down. He, he pulls back. Yeah. And, uh, I, I, I do like when he takes a breath and he looks at her tattoo and he goes, it's actually pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. And he also does another good thing, which is, he says it in, in the middle of a, an argument

[00:39:25] up sort of, and, and being in that parental figure thing of like, well, we'll, we'll talk when you're more yourself. Right. He, he says it in that way, but it is still the right thing to do, which is the kid's high. You don't need to be having this kind of conversation when they're, when somebody's altered like that. You, you do that later when everybody is on level. Yeah. So it may, it may not be the best time to, to, uh, are you, are you okay with receiving feedback right now? Are you in the right head space? Yeah.

[00:39:54] So, so all in all, there's not, it's not a complete dumpster fire of parenting here, right? He's upset. He's confronted. He can't, you know, he's got some things to deal with for himself, but he's also got to be, he is nominally responsible for her in the community of Jackson. Right. Right. You know, assuming that they choose the, to sort of follow that 18 year old law and what, you know, I don't know what their, their specific rules are, but so in the, in the nominal setup, it's not a complete dumpster fire.

[00:40:24] That's a very normal, that all fell within a good set of norms for, for parenting. Yeah. I think that was all, all a-okay in the end. Joel, again, Joel had the little homophobic gut reaction, but he, he did own up to it, I think a little bit. Well, he, he didn't quite own up to it. He kind of just glossed over it. Well, he, but he moves, he moves on eventually. Right. So. Yeah. And, and he does later, you know, years later now, but when he talks about Dina, he's like, she'd be lucky to have you. Yeah. So he, he grows from there, which is good.

[00:40:54] And again, it's one of those things, we, homophobia was installed in a lot of us and we didn't know that it was wrong until we knew it was wrong. So. Well, um, I'm, I'm, I just want to point out about the cake. Uh, it's chocolate now. No, but I think this is important because in the first scene, Seth goes, say vanilla, it takes less time. So. Right. One, it's chocolate. Two, it's spelled right. Right. Joel's put more time and effort into doing this.

[00:41:24] It shows two things. One, they're more settled. He's able to like talk to Seth and work it out with him a little more. And two, he did a lot more planning for this birthday than he did for, for that first birthday. And I think that's great. I think that's, that's good. Like non-exposition dump world building. Check you out analyzing the script and the visual communications and stuff. I'm trying to do my best here. That's good. No, I good. I'm impressed. That's, that's actually, I didn't think about that. And that is really good analysis.

[00:41:55] That's spot on. Him, him, uh, you know, this was something he did on the first, on the 15th birthday, but, you know, using her own drawing as the design for the, uh, the, um, guitar neck. Yes. The guitar neck. I thought that was great. Um, it also happens on, on the 17th birthday. I believe that, uh, and I didn't write it in here, but Joel goes to see a psychic. He goes to see the therapist, Gail. And he goes, well, what's, what's up with Moz?

[00:42:24] What do people, do people, uh, uh, uh, think, analyze dreams? And she goes, uh, stupid people basically. And, uh, if you believe in that shit, it means death. I love her. I heard her. Yeah. Um, yeah, she's great. I mean, heartbreaking scene for her later, but I love her in this. I, I love her, her thing of like, do I have a sign on my face that says open for business or something? Right. Yeah.

[00:42:53] I tried to look up that novel that she was reading and, uh, I did look it up, but I, I didn't write it down. I forgot what it was. So, um, the, and again, too, it's good setup for this episode later when, uh, when we have the whole Elliot, uh, stuff. Eugene. Eugene. Sorry, Eugene. Did I say Elliot? I apologize. Eugene. Yeah. With, with all Eugene stuff. So that's cool. That's cool. I'm just saving you the feedback, man. I'm just, we're just saving you from the flood of feedback. Send it in people. We need the feedback. Come on.

[00:43:24] Fair enough. All right. Anything else on this birthday? No, no. All right. We'll continue with the very Marianne birthdays when we get back from this break. We're back for Ellie's 19th birthday.

[00:43:53] We skipped two years this time. No 18th birthday. Didn't matter. On Ellie's 19th birthday, Joel brings her on her first patrol. He starts her on the easiest path, but they get called away to give Eugene backup. When they get there, the infected are dead, but Eugene has been bit. Eugene begs Joel to give him a chance to say goodbye to Gail, and Ellie tests him to determine that he has time left. Joel reluctantly agrees, telling Ellie to get the horses.

[00:44:20] When Joel and Eugene are alone, he gives Eugene a pep talk and then kills him. When they arrive in Jackson, Joel lies to Gail, telling her Eugene was so brave and he did it himself. Ellie tells her the truth, devastating Gail.

[00:44:44] Joel, this is kind of a rough one because this is the break, right? And Joel, what do we think of Joel doing this? He's not wrong in terms of following the rules of the community, but the wrongness of lying to Ellie, right? Mm-hmm. I don't know. What do you make of it? It's tough.

[00:45:11] I mean, I think it was pretty clear that Eugene had time to go back and say goodbye. But that would have broken the law. Would it have, though? Yeah, because what do you do the next time? So, oh, well, Joel got to do it last time, so now I'm going to bring this person back. And, you know, now it's chaos. I see what you're saying. Yeah. And so... Now, could they have brought her to him? That's maybe...

[00:45:38] Well, I don't know, because it's more time to go there and back than it is to just bring him back. Halfway? How do you get the message there? Oh, yeah, I guess you have the radios. Duh. Yeah, radios and horse, there's two of you and stuff, so... Yeah. I don't know. I think he probably should have been honest with it the whole time and just been like, we're not going to do this, Eugene. Right. And say to Ellie, like, we can't make an exception for everybody. I think you're right that that is the biggest issue is we're going to test everybody.

[00:46:08] And what if the... You know, we know the cordyceps can move at different speeds through different people. Right. Are we really going to do this for everybody that's putting an enormous risk on the community? What if they bite somebody else? What if they bite their loved one? And that's a whole other thing. Now, I did watch this with my wife and I said to her, you know, I would just say, no, just do it to me now because I don't want to get near and bite. And she goes, no, you are to find me. And I was like, damn. Well, if we're ever in this situation, I will keep that in mind. Right. Yeah, for sure.

[00:46:39] It's a tough one. And I think this was the time when Joel needed to be a capital P parent. Yeah. And talk everybody through this. And because kids want what kids want, right? And it's easy to be 19 and to not think through the consequences of things.

[00:47:09] Mm-hmm. And Eugene, you know, so he tried to do the socially polite thing and say, oh, he loved you. And he wanted his last words were to blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, what if he didn't actually say that? Like, man, you're really going out on the thin ice here. What if you make up something that he said that she knows? Wait, like, he would never say that. That's what I thought was going to happen. But that was the time for him to be a parent.

[00:47:39] But he didn't know how to do that. And so he did what he knew how to do, which was lie. Yeah. Deceive. Yeah. And it's what gives him away to Ellie. It's what gives him away. Ultimately. The way he's able to convincingly give that lie to Gail is what gives him away. And I really like this. I'll tell you, Eugene is a character. I actually hadn't thought about that. That's a really good point. Yeah. That's what she detects it. She's like, oh, that's too smooth. Well, she says later you have the same look on your face.

[00:48:08] Yeah, exactly. I didn't pick up on that. That's a really good point. And I think that's really smart. So Eugene is a character in the game, but he is not as fleshed out as this. You hear about him. You never see him. You never see this backstory. This is all just, you don't even read about this backstory. So this is a completely added plot point. Gail doesn't even exist in the game. Right. And I really like this because in the game, so they did change a lot about how Ellie finds out.

[00:48:38] They actually did like a day trip to Salt Lake City, which doesn't make sense because it was really hard for them to get there in the first game. So I think it actually makes more sense the way they did it in the show because they do like a solo trip to Salt Lake City and it doesn't play well. But with Eugene here, you have this actual thing where Ellie is able to observe him lying to someone else and be like, yeah, he had done this to me.

[00:49:07] And she goes, I'm not going to let you do this to somebody else. I'm going to tell her the truth. Right. And we'd been building up to it. Like they'd been setting us up saying that she had doubts and she was working herself through what kinds of questions would ask him. How would I approach this with him? All kinds of things. So, yeah. So again, on paper, the way that they're orchestrating all of this really well done, like, you know, pretty smart, dropping all the little clues and stuff.

[00:49:39] And same thing with the whole Eugene situation because wasn't it in episode one where he has the therapy conversation with her? I think so. Yeah. And she's like, I got to be honest with you guys. You killed my husband. You did him like a dog. And she said, I know you needed to do it. But the way you did it was so cruel, basically. And so all season long, well, especially right after that episode, everybody was like, whoa, what happened? How did that go down? Why is it like this? Why is it a mystery? Well, there we go.

[00:50:09] It's the setup so that Ellie can figure out the big lie. Yeah. I think that was a really, as much of the changes they've made this season from the game, I think this was one of the smarter ones. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a nice construction. There's this other question of, in both cases, would the person be happier accepting the lie? Because Ellie was really happy accepting the lie for three years. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:38] Until she decides to question her. Five years, actually, because it's not her 19th birthday where she starts to question it more. And it's only on her 19th birthday where she just can't accept it anymore. And Gail, she wasn't that upset. Like, she was really upset. Obviously, she was a devastated loser, her spouse. But she goes off the rails when she hears how it happened, really, from Ellie. And you have to think, like, did Ellie hurt her more by telling her the truth? Yeah.

[00:51:08] Well, and this is the thing that gets into the whole parent-kid thing. Joel doubling down on a lie, that's not good. But at the same time, is that the socially polite thing to do? To say, hey, it kind of went down a little bit differently? You know, that was a parenting. That was a call he made. And it wasn't wrong, but it wasn't right. So, like, I don't know. I don't know how to parse it. Listeners, you tell us.

[00:51:37] If you have to mercy kill someone's zombie husband, how will you handle it? I do say, I will say that taking him to that thing, you know, to the... That was a nice touch. The lake. And then walking him through the process of accepting his death and envisioning his wife as sort of a last moment. That was a lot of humanity inside of that little moment. So, you know. Yeah.

[00:52:05] And he says, I'll pass on your last words. Yeah. I do think... I think you're right. You've convinced me. Joel made the right decisions in terms of what he did. It's how he did it that was cruel. Yeah. Well, and I think the other thing, too, this is important to circle back on. So, Ellie's 19. She's becoming an adult, right? You're separating from your parents. You're trying to create your own identity and take the wheel of your own life, so to speak.

[00:52:33] Like, and then this is something that they agreed to together. You go get the horses and I'll start walking and then we'll do this together. And he broke that trust. If he just said, no, we're not doing it. End of story. I don't care what you think. This is... I am not going to do this. You do whatever you want, but I'm going to do the thing that our community says that we're supposed to do. Right. But he agreed to it. He lied to her. He literally lied to her.

[00:53:03] He just straight up, like, bullshitted her. He knew all along that he was going to take Eugene down to the side of the lake. That was the... He was like, I got to get you out of the way. That was basically it. And that's treating her like a child and not like an adult. Her partner, right? Because she says to him, I'm your patrol partner. I'm not your kid. Right? So, in this moment, I got to have... I have your back. You have my back. We have all that kind of stuff. And yeah, she's 19. She's learning the ways of patrol.

[00:53:29] You have to be the firm one in that moment and say, no, we are not taking him back. Or I'll sit here for an hour or something. And if you want to ride back and try to ride her back, then fine. I'll do that. I'll give you X amount of time. But at the end of this, this is the way it's going down. That's being a parent, right? Making the hard call. Now, what did you think about cordyceps turning you cold? Is that something... Did you make something of that line? No, I just thought I was curious.

[00:53:59] He goes, makes you cold. Didn't expect that. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting. Yeah. I do like our guy. What's the... I forget his name. The actor. He was the guy in Matrix movie. Oh, was he? Yeah. He was the guy who wanted to get put back in. Oh. I can't think of his name right now. I got to look up. That's insane. I didn't even realize that. Oh, really? That blew my mind. Just like the Matrix. We're back. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Wow.

[00:54:28] What is his name? Oh, well. I'll... I can't... It's not showing up really quick. Joe Pantoliano? Yes. Joey Pants. Joey Pants. Joey Pants? Yeah, that's because the people, you know, to short... Just to give his last name more fun. Okay. All right. I'm leaving that one with you. I'm not calling him Joey Pants.

[00:54:53] So, very sad scene and really sets up the last scene while we get back to New Year's Eve where it all started, right? After the confrontation with Seth, Ellie walks past Joel's porch but comes back. We see the scene extended to confront him about Salt Lake City. She forces him to confess what he did or their relationship is over. He tells the truth and says he'd do it again.

[00:55:19] She says, I don't think I can forgive you for this, but I'd like to try. I was not expecting that final line and so I thought that that was very good. I liked that. Mm-hmm. And it sets up even more drama for what Ellie's about to do and become, right? In her revenge quest.

[00:55:47] Because she's seeking this sort of... It puts a new spin on the whole thing with Abby and the hospital and all of that stuff. She was just about to start her relationship over with Joel. Yeah. In an honest way. She was just about to rebuild that. And the next morning, you remember, she woke up and she goes, you know what? I'm with Joel again. We're Ellie and Joel. We're always going to be Ellie and Joel. And if he hadn't gone out with Dina, would things have been differently? Like, what if, right? Oh, I don't think so.

[00:56:17] What if he hadn't left it early? Huh? I don't think it would have been different. I think just same thing. But they may not have been in the right place at the right time where Abby would have been able to see them and protect them from the horde and all of that kind of stuff. Maybe I'm just biased because he goes out with Tommy in the game and he's still ends up in the exact same situation. Sure. Sure. It's a what if situation though. So did this hit you? Did you feel all the feels?

[00:56:48] I did, but this was the part that bothered me because that whole thing of, I don't think I can forgive you for this, but I'd like to try. That is one of the last things that happens in the entire game. Oh, ever, ever. Like, done, done. Yeah. Okay. That they do that, like towards the end of the game. Like in the last few scenes against another scene that I'm not going to tell you what it is because obviously that's, you know. Right. And it plays really poetically and beautifully. And I think it ties together the themes of the game really well.

[00:57:17] And I don't know why they blew it so early. Hmm. Interesting. I think they should have saved it. I do think that was a mistake. Well, we know that these guys are getting a little clever with their scripts. So maybe they've got some more in store there. Maybe a little too clever. I don't know. That's what it's in. Are they a little too clever? I, you know, I guess we'll see it when we get there, but I, the way that the game dispersed the flashbacks, I thought was really smart.

[00:57:47] And I don't, I am not sure I fully agree with the way that they put it all together here. That being said, it was a good episode of television. I did really enjoy having it as one episode of television. And Pedro Pascal really sold all of those scenes. The way he looks up like a sad little puppy when she's like, but I'd like to try. Yeah. He's like, Oh, right. Yeah. No, he, he, he acted the hell out of it. Yeah. I, I, I don't know. It was fine.

[00:58:13] I, I was not, it wasn't, it didn't hit me like a Frank and Bill episode. I mean, call me a monster now. Um, it didn't move me in the same, in the same deep, deep way. And I really, that says about me. I really enjoyed it. And I was cranky about the last couple episodes. So it was nice to, it was nice to get back to an episode that I was really enjoying. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't have a lot to say, a lot more to say about the scene, except, you know,

[00:58:40] are you surprised that Ellie actually do the full truth? I'm glad that they resolve the ambiguity around it all. Uh, and so that we could have some clarity in terms of what happens next and what's going to happen for, for Ellie. Cause if we, if I had been left going like, does she know, doesn't she, does she, doesn't she? So when she says to, uh, is it Nora? Yeah. Uh, she's like, oh, I know. Yeah. I know.

[00:59:10] And, uh, I'm, and that's, that's why I'm here. Right. So, uh, I, I thought that, I think that all lines up nicely. So they, they put things, some things out of order and now it's like, oh, okay. It, it all works. Are you surprised that she's still so hell bent when she knows why? Um, I think, you know, revenge is its own sort of master in that regards, I guess. Hmm. Right.

[00:59:39] You know, so she's, she's being, uh, taken over by this idea and this thought. So, um, you know, I w I was more surprised that she was willing to risk Dina's life in a situation where they're way in over their heads. Yeah. Right. Well, now they have Jesse, so they're fine. Absolutely fine. Well, what is it? What does that say about them? It's actually the end of the drama and the show. It's actually just a rom-com from now.

[01:00:09] Right. Exactly. Or do they need a man though? They can't do it without a man. It's going to be Three's Company because they, uh, they're going to all live together in one little house in the theater. Have you ever seen Three's Company? I have seen Three's Company. Okay. I, I used to watch it as a kid. Oh, it's very problematic today. Ooh, boy. That is a problem like show. And I watched a lot of it. We watched a lot. Come and knock on our door. Oh man. Well, and then there was all the, uh, sort of bosom buzzy buddies and the, and the whole

[01:00:37] thing of, uh, cross-dressing was a, was a big thing. So. There were a lot of words for a lot of things that we don't use anymore. Exactly. So back to the last of us. Back to the last of us. I, I personally, they, they did change something interesting, which is they tell Ellie earlier than in the game who Abby is and, and that her dad was the doctor. And so it, it kind of takes the wind out of the sails of revenge for me a little bit.

[01:01:07] Okay. Because it, it, for most of the game, for most of Ellie's journey, she just thinks she's getting someone who killed Joel for some reason. Right. Right. And to find out that it was for this vile thing that, that Ellie thinks is vile too, right? Like she clearly has an incredible disgust for what Joel did to the fireflies. Right. And she, Ellie would have rather been the cure than be alive. Well, I said something we didn't talk about yet.

[01:01:33] Uh, and I think is, is worthy of a, uh, at least a brief, uh, touch on. She says to Joel, like, dude, that was my purpose. You took that away from me. And I think that's the other thing that, that upsets her with the Eugene situation is he's deciding for her, taking her agency away. Same thing with pushing Seth at the dance. He keeps stepping in and taking her agency away from her at these critical moments.

[01:02:02] And yeah, I think you're right. Granted, she didn't have informed consent to give up her life. And what is that in, in, in post-apocalyptic? Exactly. I don't know. Maybe a 14 year old can decide to die for a vaccine. Exactly. And, and at 14, can you really understand the consequences of that choice? Because you have this heroic sort of thought in your mind, like, oh, I could save the world. But do you really get what that means? Whereas Joel is saying, you don't know what it is to live yet.

[01:02:30] You know, fall in love and go on patrol and do all these things. He has a very... Oh, you got to live to go on patrol. Right. Well, I don't know. I'm just trying to think of things to do. Have cake, right? You know, have, have a cake baked by Seth. Yeah. Just all that life you haven't yet to, to, to live when you're 14 and 15. Yeah. Your, your perspective of what's in front of you is very different than if you're 30, 40, 50 years old. Yeah.

[01:02:55] So, but she said, I was supposed to have a purpose to my life. And so that brings the whole moth motif, right? And death. It's, it's really fascinating. I mean, we talked about alternatives at the end of last year and then I don't want to rehash our whole conversation. We did two separate podcasts about debating Joel's actions. But, you know, could he have woken her up and been like, look, I won't fight you if she wakes up and she consents to this.

[01:03:25] Mm-hmm. But, but I think part of it was, you know, Ellie calls him selfish and he doesn't dispute it. Right. Because it wasn't for Ellie totally. It was because. No, it's for him. Joel needed someone to protect and he can't survive without that. He was barely alive before that. Right. And he would go right back to being dead inside if she died. He can't. And was it Tess that he was with before in Boston?

[01:03:52] Who sort of kept him, you know, kept, helped some containment for, for him and some purpose. He can't take care of Tommy. Tommy's a grown man now. He's got a family and he's a leader in the community. He can't be his older brother. Right. That mustache has its own mind. He can't, he can't control him. So Joel, in a way, in an essence, hasn't grown or progressed. He's just reliving what he didn't, he lost with Sarah, in a way. Yeah.

[01:04:22] Does that make sense? That like he's, she's, she's his replacement for Sarah? Well, Craig Mazin said about The Last of Us, he said Sarah is the most important character in the entire Last of Us series. And she's not, right. She's haunting the narrative. Exactly. I was going to say that her ghostly presence. Yeah. Because she is the motivation for Joel, who is the motivation for Ellie. Right. Who is the motivation for Abby, right? Like. Right. It all goes into play because of Sarah.

[01:04:52] Because of Sarah. And he can't get past it. And he can't be with Ellie as if she's just Ellie. If only he knew Gail sooner. It started therapy sooner. Seriously. Seriously. Or it found that weed shop and actually had something to trade. So. Yeah. Eugene's weed shop. All right. You want to get into the listener feedback? Yeah. I guess we got some. Give us some from Katie. All righty here. Let me increase the font for my old eyes to see.

[01:05:22] Katie G writes in, says, hey again, John and David. Hey, Katie. I was so excited to hear you read out my feedback last week. And I'm so stoked you enjoyed my thoughts writing back in your requests. And my pleasure. Well, there you go, Katie. Thank you for writing in again, again. Keep it coming. Yeah. We like the feedback here. And it's fun when people are into it, right? Like we want this to be a space where people can, you know, share their voices. Katie continues.

[01:05:52] I also found episode five a bit weird. At times I felt like I was watching two different shows. First, a young adult romance drama and then a complete horror show. I'm also trying to make sense of Ellie's behavior as a non-game player. The only rationale I came up with is that Ellie is masking to Dina with a genuine loved up vibe to cover her complete psychotic headspace that arises when she kills Nora.

[01:06:21] Perhaps Ellie doesn't think even Dina could accept her deep darkness, especially as we find out that Ellie did know what Joel did at the hospital to provoke Abby and co. Dina has shared her own dark side, but her experience with her mom and sisters was still more cut and dry righteousness than the true context for the revenge Ellie seeks.

[01:06:47] She doesn't know what Joel did at the hospital and may not actually be okay with it. So perhaps Ellie got a bit of ain't nobody going to match my freak fear driving this unusual happy ending, happy energy. So yeah, so I think the reveal really changed, you know, adds so much more to the whole conversation about Ellie's motivation. Continuing, I noticed a few clever, if intentional, foreshadowing connections I thought were cool.

[01:07:16] One, Eugene's gas mask foreshadowing the spores to come. Oh, very good. Very good. I like that. I like picking up on those little details. Dina's reference to triangulation. I'm triangulating foreshadowing Jesse's arrival. Oh, check you out. Check you out, Katie. Very nice. Reading, reading the spores, reading the, reading the signs. Foreshadowing Jesse's arrival, creating a love triangle between the three.

[01:07:44] Also, instead of his being a negative triangulation, it feels like a comment on direction. A triangle is a symbol of things such as unity and genders. So this could have had deeper, this could have a deeper message of this diverse threesome bringing unity, balance, love, family to a world desperately in need of it. That's, yeah, it's good. Ellie's becoming a stalker.

[01:08:10] I can't help but see a connection between the development of the stalkers and Ellie's own increasingly bold and calculated way of hunting. At the end with Nora, she walks through the clouds of spores like a stalker unaffected and focused on her kill. Paired with the stranger things upside down vibe of that scene. Oh, nice. Again, our protagonist is the one blurring the line between human and monster. Does her immunity?

[01:08:40] If not used to save others, make her a vicious killer in a world where she can move with more safety in the shadows filled with the undead. Anyway, awesome. Having people share my nerdy lorebs of Stotts with, yay, Katie, Lorehound extraordinaire. Thank you. Very cool. I like this. I like this interpretation of Elias the monster. You know, I did see this theory. I saw somebody say, give me your craziest last of us theories.

[01:09:10] And somebody said that one of their theories is Ellie might be immune to being taken over completely by the cordyceps, but maybe it changes her personality. Maybe that's what makes her violent. Yeah. Yeah. I could see it. I don't know if that's what they're going for, but I could see it. So, I think that's interesting because it does affect her choices and her behaviors. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:37] And when she's down there in the basement, like, what kind of transformation is she going through? Not that the spores are affecting her, but the fact that she is changing. She's like, this is my space. Yeah. Like Katie's saying here, I have dominion in here. This is where I, you know, maybe not I belong, but I can be here while you can't be here. And that's going to change your outlook and your attitudes about things. Yeah.

[01:10:07] I see it. Ellie definitely is quite the formidable foe in Spore Town. Spore Town. So, thank you, Katie. Yeah. It's great. I want some more theories. Ken W. wrote in too. What does Ken have to say? What another heartbreaking episode from The Last of Us reminded me of season two, episode three, long, long time. That's the Frankenbill episode. Yep.

[01:10:34] I'm not a game player, but I think you can see why they were holding back on Ellie going full revenge mode. You got to believe in the process. Now we get, we can let revenge Ellie loose on Seattle and anyone who gets in her way, may we have mercy on their souls. Ken W. I think this point here is, it's very similar to what they're doing with Jeffrey Wright's character, and I'm blanking his name on top right now. Yeah, Isaac. Isaac, thank you.

[01:11:02] There's this moment of humanization before the monstrosity. I will say, I'm glad you're enjoying it, Ken. I still think that it works better as a tension breaker in between monstrous moments. Mm-hmm. Listen, we're early in the monster scale. Ellie could go way more monstrous than she has been now. Right. Look at Joel. She could be Joel. Right. She is Joel, right? That's, yeah. She is, she is the inheritor of Joel-ness.

[01:11:30] So I, I don't think we needed to hold back on anything. I think there's plenty of range we have on the monster scale. Right. You want to read Nate M? Well, this one seems very musical, so should we do the honors? Okay, I'll read it. And then you can, you can respond since you're all into Nevermind the Music. Check out Nevermind the Music, one of our affiliates. So you can find the link tree in the show notes. Dude, they dropped an hour-long episode. They're, they're, uh, being influenced by you. They're being affected by the Lorehound spores.

[01:11:59] And if you've not heard it already, um, Nicole does what they all said couldn't be done. She Mandela'd the Mandela effect. Did she? Yes. You have to listen to the episode. Okay. All right. I got to listen to this. She Mandela'd the Mandela effect. All right. I don't know what that means, but I'm going to find out. But before that, we're going to read Nate M's feedback. And Nate says, Joel's loving restoration of Ellie's guitar got me thinking of this Basquiat quote

[01:12:26] and how it ties to some of the core themes of The Last of Us. Art is how we decorate space. Music is how we decorate time. Ooh. I like that. Very profound. Music is all about decorating time. A song represents the passage of time in a beautiful, embellished way. In season one, episode three, you can look at Frank's strawberry garden or restored clothing boutique the same way you look at Joel's restoration of Ellie's guitar.

[01:12:56] Or the beautiful few minutes we spend listening to Joel sing future days. Because paying attention to things or decorating them is how we show up. Oh, nice. This is great. We got some really quality feedback this episode. This is great, guys. This is great. As a musician, I am constantly thinking about time. And one of the most core skills for a musician is known as keeping time or marking time, which probably means playing songs at the correct tempo and maintaining that tempo consistently.

[01:13:24] Marking time is also how people describe a life not worth living, like going through the motion. This story, like all zombie-related stories, is not just about avoiding death, but more importantly, avoiding the wrong kind of zombified infected life. To quote Station Eleven, survival is insufficient. Oh, and Station Eleven makes an appearance. I love it. I was just talking about Station Eleven with Aisha. I heard that. Episode 12, yeah. I've never watched or read it, so one day.

[01:13:52] Man, I wish I had been podcasting to cover that when that came out. Well, it's over now. You're not going back anymore. Do it one shot. To quote Joel's response to the cliche time heals all wounds, it wasn't time that did it. Joel's presence in Ellie's life made it worth living. Joel had already been suicidal. Wait, it's Ellie's presence in Joel's life. Oh, I'm sorry. Ellie's presence in Joel's life made it worth living.

[01:14:18] Joel had already been suicidal after Sarah's death and would be suicidal again if Ellie didn't survive the Fireflies because there is an undecorated, harsh, brutal version of living that isn't worth it. The most obvious representation of this is the infected, but it also applies to Joel's raiding and smuggling without anyone to protect or Bill alone in his bunker not showering or the spore breathers kept alive and possibly conscious in the walls of the hospital basement.

[01:14:48] Time is what we run out of when we die. All the characters in the story who kill are cutting short the time of others. Once the ballot of Joel ends with his death, Ellie must decide how she will spend her time, how she will compose her life song now that Joel won't be present for it. Damn. Between Katie and Nate and Ken here, we're, ah, this is some good stuff. Good stuff. It is. We're having a great night here. You want to read the PS? He's getting all poetic. Yeah.

[01:15:18] You want to read the PS? Sure. PS, I don't know if Joel tuning the guitar wrong. Yeah, I thought of you when he was getting it tuned up. There was a wrong note there. Was intentional or a happy accident, but the meaning of it is quite juicy. Oh, okay. The standard, we're getting some, never mind the music level action here. Yeah.

[01:15:38] The standard of tuning, tuning of a guitar's open strings is neither fully consonant or dissonant, but in a neutral point in between. This allows you the most flexibility for playing different types of chords in different keys on different parts of the neck.

[01:15:56] However, problematic, controlling Joel tunes the open strings of Ellie's guitar to be perfectly consonant C major chord, which would only help her play a few limited chords on a few songs. Oh, damn. Makes it easier, but it limits you. Right. And he keeps taking away her agency. Ellie wants agency to live her life how she wants to with the soundtrack of her choosing.

[01:16:25] But this tuning limits her ability to play songs of her choice. And in particular, screws up her ability to play those heavy, crunchy power chords she loves so much in dark grunge music. Joel's tuning would preclude her from decorating her time with those sonic colors. This probably wasn't the, uh, wasn't intentional because Joel is clearly playing future days and standard tuning shortly after.

[01:16:54] But I thought it was too interesting of a thought not to share. I really love this. Uh, this is great analysis because that's, that is taking away her agency by, by giving her the easy way out. Right. He's not, he's not teaching her how to live life. He's trying to make it easy for her. You know, you talk about different parenting styles. There's people who want to hold their kid's hand through everything. And there's people who say like, let me show you how to move your hand on your own so that you can do it without me.

[01:17:19] We are in the phase of walking to and from school on our own. Ooh. And it was very, very hard. It's very hard for me to do that, to let that happen. But we're letting it happen. My, my daughter is already trying to push for it. And I'm like, absolutely not. You are four years old. You are four years old. You don't get to do that yet. We're at the top end of fourth grade and, uh, we're, we're there.

[01:17:44] We've, there's a whole bunch of other support things in, in place, but she's exploring her agency. I was taking the bus by then. So there was no. Jesus out of me. Yeah. I was taking the bus. There was no, uh, negotiation there. I was just, you know. Right. Yeah. Off you go. Well, yeah. Same with me. Yeah. I was, I remember the. Anyway, well, we won't get into my Gen X, uh, upbringing of getting lost the first time we moved to a new town, running to walk to school. Oh my gosh. In the fourth grade. Delightful. Delightful. I mean, when I was a kid, the school bus was a feral.

[01:18:14] It was. Oh yeah. You didn't, you didn't want to go there. It was, it was unpleasant. It don't. All right. All right. You're judging up my trauma, David. That's why I walked like three or four miles, especially during middle school, because I did not want to be on that bus. I, I, I, it was, it was suburban enough where it was like impossible for me to get to school. Like it would have taken me like two hours to walk to school. Right. Right. Exactly. And you're like on the bus for two hours. Like sometimes depending on where you live on the route. They had a good busing route. Why are we talking about this? All right.

[01:18:44] All right. Come for the, come for the, uh, the, the psychological horror stay for the parenting techniques and, and beat in. Would you like to know about busing in the early two thousands? I'll tell you. Oh my goodness. All right. Let's get out of here. All right. Check out our affiliates. We already talked about nevermind the music, music and psychology together. Radioactive ramblings is doing their fallout lore again in preparation for fallout season two in the winter.

[01:19:14] I think December, right? Mm-hmm. And we've got a properly Howard movie review. I think they're coming out new season soon. I haven't heard from Anthony in a while. He was on, on, uh, the sinners, uh, movie, uh, one shot with Alicia and John. And that was, uh, apparently a very good, uh, uh, conversation. I still have not seen it and I don't know when I'm going to. So hopefully this weekend, open Memorial Day weekend. Yeah. Uh, all right. Yeah.

[01:19:41] I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing that movie too, because it seems right up my alley. You don't watch movies. I don't watch movies, but I do like horror movies. Well, we're talking about, uh, speaking of movies, we're talking about a real pain, uh, for subscribers in a couple of days. Tomorrow. My God, tomorrow. Is it tomorrow? That's right. And check out, by the way, uh, before I finish affiliates, uh, check out, uh, we'll shift dust and the star Wars kind of timeline podcast and, uh, rings rituals.

[01:20:05] They're all on a, on a brief hiatus, but they'll, they'll, uh, we'll, we'll shift dust and, and star Wars kind of timeline podcast. We'll be back soon at least. Uh, and then for us, you already mentioned, uh, we're doing our 11 Z's. Uh, we're, we're, we're late, but we're, we're doing it. And then we're going to catch up on some second breakfast and another 11 Z's. Yep. We've got full coverage of, uh, of, uh, Dr. Who, Murderbot. Yep. And more.

[01:20:34] I'm going to be on a Dune Minute podcast starting, uh, May 26th. So check that out. That's right. That whole week. That's going to be fun. Sinners one shot. I think, I think in four days I scheduled a, a Silmarillion story to come out. I recorded it in advance, so I think it's coming out this week. Right. We'll see. And we've got a couple more and or podcasts coming out. You, me and Alicia are going to talk, uh, recap the season and round table. Some of the issues and feedback that we've gotten. And then, uh, I'm going to be talking to all of the co-pilots at some point.

[01:21:04] And then I have this interview with, uh, Tansy Gardum coming up. Very cool. We got a lot of stuff going on. We have all of the podcasts you could ever want. All of them. And then we've got a busy summer yet. So we'll save news for that later. You're ready to give some thank yous. You want to give them? Uh, I will, uh, do the thank yous to our discord server boosters. People who donate to make this server a better place. Aaron K.

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[01:22:29] And forever lost, but not last, Adrian. He comes around every now and then. I haven't seen him in a while, though. He came around to sass me about my, uh, my pizza takes. Okay. Oh yeah, that was just a little while ago. So, thank you everyone. Uh, thanks to all our subscribers. Thanks to everyone who listens and we will see you on the next podcast. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[01:22:53] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.