The Rings of Power - S02E03 - The Eagle and the Sceptre

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the Rings of Power podcast. We are the Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: world of Middle Earth. I'm David. I'm John. And I'm Marilyn. This is our coverage for

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Prime Video's original series, The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, Season 2,

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Episode 3. We're going to start off the podcast with our hot takes for the episode and

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: then we're going to get into a scene by scene breakdown. If you'd like to contact us, send

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_05]: emails to lotr at thelorehounds.com or if you want to join our Discord server or support

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_05]: the community by subscribing on SuperCastro Patreon, you can go to the link here in the show

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: notes and find everything there. And if you're not into recurring subscriptions,

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: you can also find a link to our Season Pass, which is a great way to support the

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: community without doing the recurring subscription. You pay $10 flat, a one time fee. You get our

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_03]: online curated guide, which we call the One Guide to Rule them All. You get the ad free

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: episodes. You get our weekly bonus Lore casts. And we have Marilyn's all of ad free Rings and

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: rituals Season 1 in there as well. Don't we, John? We sure do. Yes, we do. Get them all

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: hot. And do we, did we include the Season 1 coverage as well? We included the second age.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: The second age podcast, perfect. Ad free. So that's a lot of value for $10. I'm sorry.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm telling you. Anyway, here we are. We are on our third night of recording.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a plowed through. Third night, fourth podcast. That's right.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, because we did our Lore cast episode the other night. We talked about

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the power levels of the creation of Eru's creations. And we talked about all the different

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: beings and where they sort of rank in a raw power sort of reference. And Amazon was gracious

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_03]: enough to provide us with screeners for these first three episodes. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. And so we are being very mindful. We don't have to be mindful anymore because

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_03]: we're at the third episode. So we can talk about the spoilers, but we were being careful

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: all through those. And Marilyn, you're an academic and you've studied Tolkien and

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_03]: taught Tolkien. John, superfan, me, casual fan. So I think we've got a good spectrum of

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: thoughts and experiences to talk about Tolkien. If you have any more questions about

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: any of our coverage plans, how we're going to do this or any more information

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: about our backgrounds, I'll refer you just back to episode one of season two.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's get right to it. John, do you want to lead us off with your hot takes for episode three?

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Still very much enjoying myself. This is, you know, I see why they did three episodes for the

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_05]: drop. We finally touched on all the people that we need to see. And I think that's the

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_05]: point, right? I think you said it like this yesterday is we've been gone two years.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's remember where everybody is first. And then we can keep going on an episodic weekly thing.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_05]: It is a shame that it's almost half the season in one night, but you know, I'm still really

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_05]: much enjoying myself. I really like where Isildur is going. I think that that's becoming an

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_05]: interesting plot where I really didn't care about it last season. I just didn't see where they

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_05]: were going with Isildur last season. Right. Introducing him this early. I've seen a

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_05]: criticism going around in initial reviews since now they just came out today, the initial reviews

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_05]: that I do kind of agree with, which is I think we may be introducing some people too early for them

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_05]: to be important. And in that case, there's not a lot for them to do right now. But

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_05]: even so, I am enjoying what they're giving us. And I give examples of who they were thinking

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_05]: of. I think Isildur is one of them. Oh, okay. It just doesn't have a lot to do

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_05]: right now. So they're kind of making things up jazz hands, but that's okay. I'm still enjoying

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: what they're doing with him. Isildur. I can't get whenever I hear his name. I have to think of

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that. You're thinking of Elrond there? Yeah, yeah. They brought him in and they're doing this to

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_05]: show his character arc. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. I think the criticism is should they

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: have brought him in like season three and then have a three season character arc, which

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: things we'll be talking about tonight. All right. I think they're doing it well.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Marilyn? I think they're doing it well. No. Exactly. Yeah. Very glad to be back with

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: New Menor again. That was fine. They're continuing to spark my interest in a lot of different

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: directions. I don't mind that sort of here and there and so forth approach because as you were

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: saying, John, they're bringing us all up to speed more or less with these three all at once.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And by splitting it up, they allow us to have a satisfying arc for each character group, right?

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. One episode instead of splitting it up over three, which might feel less

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: satisfying. Exactly. I'm delighted with the way that the relationship between Calibrim

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Boran and Anatar is developing, seeing all kinds of callbacks to the lore. I mean,

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: some of it's kind of deep, but I'm seeing it there. I like how they're approaching this

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: whole question of the different Elves responses to the idea of making rings,

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: what their situation is, how are they going to respond to it and

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: why Calibrim Boran trusted Anatar. He was all set to dismiss Albrand and then

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: we get the really sneaky Sauron approach. But he's not perfect Sauron. He does make some

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: mistakes in this episode or at least one that I can think of. Okay. It's important.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: We can talk about it when we're there because I picked up on that as well.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a little bit of a oopsie. Oopsie. Yeah, so yeah, I'm having a great time.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Cool. I'm still not fully there yet, but I'm there enough that I'm enjoying what we've got

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: going on. But I kind of want to wait and see where we go with for and how things start

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to develop. I think it's a mixture of various things and part of it is the

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: calibration work that they're doing and the setup work that they're doing.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Three episodes is a lot. John, we mentioned that we talked just now and we talked about it the

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: other day about the release schedules and stuff, whatever. This is what we got three

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_03]: episodes. We just have to go with it. Was it a little jet-packy? It felt like how close is

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Casa Doom to Aregion? It's next door. Is it? Okay. It's literally next door.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so it's not jet-packing. No jet-packing going on. Actually, that's one thing I will

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_05]: compliment this season on. I think much better than last season on that. I think so too.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so too. They weren't giving the impression that it was just an afternoon stroll

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the way they did in the first season.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that we've touched on all the major plot points, I'm ready for the story to

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: get moving forward. The forges in place, the dwarven rings are being forged.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that'll be some great setup. Like I said the other day, the

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_03]: dwarven family plot wasn't exciting me that much, but who knows? Maybe they're

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: setting up for a bunch of stuff that's going to come this season. Maybe, of course they are.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: They're creating character. They're getting us warmed back up to the character so that

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: they can start to build the tension when things start to really get going. So I'm just kind of

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: great. Show looks great. Acting's great. Lore seems good. We're all like green lights.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Here we go. And the music is wonderful.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Nice work, Bear. I know you're a loyal listener of the pod.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Quick note, Marilyn and I both, you and I both made notes for the opening sequence

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and we were talking a little bit about it before we started recording. I think John,

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: your suggestion is that we'll do, we'll talk about it. We'll do some analysis on it maybe in

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_05]: episode four. Yeah, I think that's right for two reasons. One, we can see if they change it

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_05]: by next week. Are they adding to it or not? And the other thing is we just have so much

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_05]: content to cover this week that let's just put one thing off to next week. Yeah, and it's a lot

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: for everyone. Works for me. It's not only a lot for us, it's a lot for everyone to watch

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and then listen to these things. If anyone on day one watches three episodes and listens to

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_05]: three podcasts by us, I will be amazed. We ought to give them a worry. Yeah, right. And let us know.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone bless you. The star of marriage and dedication. The true elf friend. All right. There

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_03]: we go. Should we get into our scene by scene, John? You have dutifully documented the episode

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and that is all in the show guide that subscribers will have access to. And if you want to get

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: access to these two as well, you can see them there in episode guides each episode.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. And let's take it away. Sounds good. So Marilyn renamed my first scene here when I

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_05]: loved the new name. Barrick's Big Adventure. Maybe you laugh a lot. Elendil releases Barrick

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Isildur's horse. When the horse refuses to board a ship back to Numenor,

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Barrick rides into Mordor, fighting off orcs and spiders to find his rider in the Black Forest.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_05]: There Isildur is attacked by a giant spider before the two escape.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So timing-wise, is this a little flashback-y? Is this like a little bit flashback and a little

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_03]: bit overlap? Like I didn't... Yeah. That's what gave me the sense of jetpackiness. This

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: episode was there's a lot of moving around and I don't know what lines up with what. It

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: doesn't matter really, but I did feel a little bit temporally displaced.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. The first bit was definitely lifted straight from season one.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. Yeah. I believe that him fighting with the horse was taken from season one.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It was. And then Barrick dashing off across the field. That was the end of the season one

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: parts. So we can just, with our imagination, say a lot of time passed and then...

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Little hand wavy. He runs into some rather unfriendly orcs.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you guys make of the Uruk in this scene that I think, for my standpoint,

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the practical costuming and makeup is fantastic. Oh yeah. They're just knocking it out of the

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_05]: park for sure. Yeah. And I really like that they're making Barrick such a character in himself

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_05]: because the Numenorians were known to be super bonded to their horses. They could...

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely. They have these like insane bonds with horses in a way that the men of Middle

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Earth never did. So having Sealdor have this close relationship with Barrick and having

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Barrick be able to sense where he is and fight off orcs, I mean, that's straight out of the lore

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: right there. Yeah. Definitely. Though I didn't realize that Numenorian horses were so intelligent

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that they could actually shake off ropes that were looped around their necks. Yes.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I did clock that as well. You know what? Having ridden horses myself when my first thought when

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw him running off was, oh my God, he's going to break his legs. I feel like an alt

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: angle with that rope. And the next time we see him... It's going.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So all right. He rubbed on a tree and it broke it loose. Right. Right. Right.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't doubt the powers of Barrick. I do not. I do not.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, when I very first watched this episode and this scene, I kind of groaned a

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: little bit. I was like, oh, but then I was like, well, maybe I should check in. And John,

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you just confirmed it that Numenorian horses are, you know, plus class just like Numenorians are.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah. They are.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I needed a little more check on that.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Particularly with once they've made that connection.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, the showrunners, correct me if I'm wrong, they confirmed that this is baby

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: she-lob, right? Yes, they did. And also it was confirmed by Barr when he was talking

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: with another musician, Jordan Rinalds, who's making beautiful soundscapes.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that that's as much she-lob as we get in this entire show.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. It was, you know, okay, I get it. You're trying to show all the favorite things

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that people know and say, oh yes, I remember this and kind of get people

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: settled back and comfortable in Middle Earth again. But let's not overdo it. This is okay.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_05]: David, did the memberberry work for you as someone who is not steeped in the war?

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. I had a memberberry.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I figured it was she-lob and I was... And it didn't bother me. I felt a little bit like I was

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_03]: watching a movie or a scene out of the alien franchise movies. It's very much that.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And we just obviously had the alien Romulus and we just did a whole bunch of special

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: projects around alien. So go check out this podcast. So I was like, oh, this is alien.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But then I was wondering how much Maryland was peeking through her fingers at some of these scenes.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: No, this was dark enough that it didn't matter.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They seem to really love their squelches.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They were very squelchy.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron was so squelchy to begin with and now we have squelchy,

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: eggs, spider eggs and blood on his fingers and all that kind of stuff. But it was also dark and

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_03]: monochrome that... I will agree that maybe this is a character with she-lob being introduced so

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: early. Like what are we doing here? And I guess the more that I think about it,

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: if you ask that question, John, it was fine. It was okay. The CGI was okay. It looked like CGI,

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: but it was good CGI. And then if we don't do any more with it, I think you're right. I think that

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03]: would be a better thing just to leave that there. And we just know they've just planted that and

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe in one of the later seasons something happens. But we don't need anything in the next

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: couple of seasons.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And for those who are saying, wait a minute, she-lob was a lot bigger than that. Let's

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: see. She encounters Frodo and Sam, so that's what they were aiming for basically.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Little confusing that Orcs was saying, oh, he's going into the Black Forest and nobody comes

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: out alive from there. Of course, we know that Sheila eventually took her abode in Kierethungel

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Spider Slayer. So I don't know. Maybe a fun thing.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And what's a lore check on the Black Forest? Is that a place or is it...

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That is not anything I'm familiar with.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've never hook up a fore.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: They make cuckoo clocks in Germany in the Black Forest. That's my association with the Black

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Forest. Sorry, Germany. Sorry, Germany. I'm not dissing on you in any way,

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: shape or form. I love the cuckoo clocks. I had one as a child or a family did.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_05]: To me, this is a sort of reference for both Lord of the Rings movie fans, book fans,

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_05]: but also people who are fans of the summer early. And because there is a forest full

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_05]: of the spawn of Angolians, full of spiders and un-gortha.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And un-gortha. That was in Beleriand, which is no longer with us.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think this is sort of trying to allude to... So this is a journey that Barron had to take

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_05]: to get into Doriath to find Luthien. So I think... And it was supposed to be so terrible

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_05]: that he would never speak of it again. He would never speak of his experience going

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: through the spider forest. He was only a minute through without going mad.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So props.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Right. So I think this is trying to do both here. This is trying to be

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_05]: member barriers for those who are deep in the summer early and member barriers for those who are

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: deep into the Lord of the Rings movies and books.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Two for one.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. Good pull, I think.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And I did... It really enjoyed Isildur just holding the two fangs, the pinzers,

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_05]: and trying to fight them off. That was a really great moment, I thought.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that a little Jacksonian?

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It was. It was absolutely a callback to Sam doing exactly the same thing with

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: very much larger Shiloh. So all right, fine. How else are spiders of that shape and size going to attack?

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Right. Is it rotants of unusual size, anyone?

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Good one. Nice.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Five points, John.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_05]: All right. A funeral for a king is next. Elendil pays his respects to Tar Palantir

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_05]: when Aearean calls him out for not mourning Isildur.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_05]: She has a flashback to a conversation with the late king

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_05]: when he said the island will fall, but there is still time.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Miriel arrives to grieve her father and Elendil aids her in identifying the attendees such as Lord

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Belzagar from the north. A woman attacks Miriel who responds with kindness instead of violence.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Aearean make Numenor a great again kind of thing? Is that a vibe that we're getting here?

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_05]: She's had her YouTube algorithm messed with and now she's been a little red pilled.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She also lost her mother when she was younger than 10, lost her older brother, has lost her younger

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: brother and was not really enthusiastic about going to war on Middle Earth in the first place.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's dating the opposer's daughter. So what can you say?

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, who has not witnessed a teenager adopting the values of the family that they marry into

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_05]: date into rather than their own? She was raised with Mr. Faithful over here,

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Isildur, sorry Elendil who is very much for, hey you are history is with the elves, let's

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_05]: honor that. And also it's so much easier to be angry than to grieve, right?

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yes, absolutely.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And so here she's using her anger to direct her grief at Miriel instead of being, and her father

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_05]: instead of just grieving her brother. She yells at him, you're not even saying Isildur's name

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_05]: because she feels like if she can be angry, if she can do something about the politics,

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_05]: she can do something to make his life more meaningful. But it's just, it's never going

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_05]: to pan out for her.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like somewhat of a steep change for me but that could be because we just haven't

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: spent as much time with new menortes we have with other plot lines. The ritual of placing the

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: seashell on the beer was just beautiful. I will certainly have a lot to say that in the

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: future in another podcast.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have that with an exclamation point here, funeral ritual for MRP in my notes.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I also really like the way that Elendil is filling Miriel in on the political currents.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that would happen but to actually witness it in action is good and I just love

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the scene with grieving mother and Miriel's compassion for her.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say in all of this, there's a lot of

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: lecissitude towards outbursts towards the ruler. She strikes her later on, somebody yells at her.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I would think in other circumstances those people would be taken up in arms at a minimum

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: if not struck down on the spot.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like to assault the regent or whatever the status of the ruler is, coordinated or not.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It seemed a little bit lax to me but maybe that's new menorean culture.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the parent of the people. I don't know if that's a notion that

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we can overlay on the new menorean monarchy. The whole presentation of the monarchy here is

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting. It does strike me as being less formal than in the texts. I think that's maybe part

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of what you're picking up on David and I agree with you.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Although she's not queen yet as we learn later.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, true.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_05]: True.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_05]: But to me, this is Miriel taking up the same pathos that I was just talking about.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Right? Understanding that the anger is coming from grief, not true rage.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Immediately the woman melts when given the opportunity for us when being invited to grieve.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think Miriel just has a really excellent emotional intelligence that you don't always see

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_05]: in rulers.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Indeed she does and I'm afraid that people are not valuing it at its worth.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well and when you're playing against Farazone,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_03]: she's not playing the same game.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Right? She's trying to play honest and straight and he's already several steps ahead.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And Farazone certainly has a fair amount of emotional intelligence too.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just how they use it.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, people can use emotional intelligence for good and evil for sure.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_05]: A tool.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a witness, a certain slimy secret being who is currently lodged in Oregon.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Well let's move on to Farazone's scene.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Quick question.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I was just curious about who this lord from the north is and are they talking about

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the north of Numenor and then that's far enough away that oh those northerners,

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: they're so different than us.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a big island.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a big island.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean this is a full nation not just you know Long Island where I'm from.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I remember correctly that they said that the island of Numenor

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in size approached the land mass of Balarian.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that sounds over large to me.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So that might have been an earlier idea that was later discarded but it is very big.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I believe that the Northland is referring to the northern point.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: If you remember Numenor, it was like a star.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a star.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're talking about the upright point would be the folk from the north.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Because whenever I see depictions on any of the maps that I find online because

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_03]: you know everything that you find online is accurate and true and correct.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Numenor is definitely not as big as Balarian.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no but it there was something that they wanted to indicate

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that it was a lot larger than a lot of people see.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And you know there is a whole thing with the geography as in

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_05]: the Numenorians start off on the west coast with their capital of Raman.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I believe it was called at that time.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And they end up on the east coast.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And that move signifies a break with the Valar and the break with the Elves.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Because west is where the Valar are.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That's where the Undying Lands are.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And when they move east, they're looking more towards Middle Earth and they're looking

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: away from the Valar and away from the Elves of Tola, Resea.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I mean I think there certainly will be nobles of different areas.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think they kind of explicitly tell us here that this

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_05]: character is going to be more aligned with Farah's own than with Miriel.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they certainly.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_05]: They're factions building.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: When they're talking there's that boom, boom, boom kind of music in the background that's

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: very distinctive.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's very, very cute up to be conspiratorial.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And his name really made me think of Beelzebub.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can't say for sure if this is a name taken from the lore.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's certainly not one I've ever remember hearing before.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Feels like a show creation doesn't it?

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is but listeners write in if you know otherwise.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so Farah's own he's he's starting trouble here.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_05]: He's just starting to nudge things in the direction he wants it to go.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_05]: He gives Miriel a choice of color.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Miriel examines her father's possessions before Farah's own arrives to give her a

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_05]: choice of gown color.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_05]: He insists she wear red at her coronation for a new, new minority future but she

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_05]: chooses white in honor of her father which Farah's own calls the past.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I didn't write it in the summary but she calls it humble right humbler.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is interesting.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes and he wants her to wear red which is like, I don't know man you're really you

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: guys are really putting your finger right on the modern political context right now.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And interestingly enough I just realized we saw Miriel first in black

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and now we're talking about red or white and red, white and black are the

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: goddess colors.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Contemporary goddess thoughts so you have white is maiden, red is woman and black is

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: crone so I'm pretty certain that they did not intend that meaning but.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I think also it says red like the sun and to me the sun comes from

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_05]: the east right.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the way that they're turning now and the white is closer to the color of star light.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, no that makes sense.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that works.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just more elvish.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's all what is this behind her back that she's hiding though?

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the key to unlock the door to the tower where the palantheater is supposed

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to be.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: She finds is not.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's it.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that was a little bit of an interesting timey-wimey thing that I wasn't fully sure

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_05]: where they were going with that.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Like how that sequence of events happened.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay anyway.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: When did it take place?

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_05]: When did the palantheater disappear?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, get stolen.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Well let's talk about that scene and we can combine all this discussion because

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I think it'll be easier that way.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Also want to just point out I think it was in this scene but it might not have been,

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: they do establish that they are cousins.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, Miriel and in Farazon.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But doesn't she say cousin or he say cousin?

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I forget.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: One of them says cousin.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was Farazon but they hadn't established that clearly up until this point so it's

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely from the lore.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of hoping they wouldn't go there in case they do the whole marriage thing but

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: from things I've seen I think they're going in a different direction which I'm just glad about.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Well Miriel was in a very different position too with like she wasn't queen regent at the time of

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Of in the writings.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_05]: She just was the heir and she wouldn't, she's not the first queen of Numenor either.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Numenor has a long tradition of kings and queens of both genders.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Starting with Eldarion's daughter because that was the only child he had and he was the one who

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: changed the law.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: He was the mariner.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: If you know the story, the mariner's wife from Unfinished Tales you will know exactly what I'm

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: talking about and he was the one who first made voyages, long voyages back to Middle

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Earth and to work with the elves and Lindon and so on and with Kierdan.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I think we might be due for, I think I talked about it in season one a little bit but

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_05]: some Eldarion and Aurendra's talk at some point on a lower cast.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_05]: That would be fun.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So let me bring in the rest of the gang in Numenor so we can talk about this plot

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_05]: all together.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Kemen complains to a table of soon-to-be conspirators about the lack of fitness

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_05]: of Myriel to rule.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Belzagar encourages Farisone to assert his claim but Valindil arrives to defend the queen regent.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Aurean is convinced to tell them of the Palantir and Myriel tries to find it but it's missing.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So, missing Palantir.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Missing but not really.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Do we, was it, I can't because I didn't do a season one rewatch recently.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Did we have indication from season one of her?

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember her discovering it I guess that's my...

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it was right towards the end of season one where she's sketching the king's face and he

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: becomes conscious.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to Myriel and tells her go up the tower and look in the Palantir.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a recurring quote here of misunderstanding who's talking to you with your death.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah seriously seriously.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Well House of the Dragon that was a major that was the...

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, that was the whole initiating event right?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't actually see Aurean uncovered entirely we see her reach out and lift

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the veil on it and then we cut away.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't know did she look in it did she see something you know what was her experience

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and we still don't really know but I find it interesting she describes it as finding something

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: secret dangerous forbidden.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And boy does that remind me of Pandora's box you know the woman being given the treasure

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and told never to open it and so she opens it anyway and out flies all of the troubles

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that have troubled humans ever since and the only thing that's left in the box after

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: she claps the lid on top of it is hope.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Right yeah keep it secret keep it safe.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead John.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I was just gonna say I mean it's just so sad to see this society devolve into

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_05]: really demonizing elven artifacts when they learned all of their crafts basically from the elves.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_05]: The whole point of their society is that they were a little closer to elves than men I mean

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_05]: their first ruler was half elf.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot that they wouldn't know how to do now.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And they hadn't been for the elves which allowed the girl rather not tactfully tries to point out to them.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's also a big departure from the lore because Palantiri were all over Numenor in the books.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_05]: This was not like one Palantir was in Numenor there were many

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and that's why there are several in Middle Earth during the Lord of the Rings.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah they're really adapting the PJ interpretation of Palantiri so it's I know it's annoying but

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: there it is sorry they're not gonna change it.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: In the room there were several artifacts in the Palantiri room up the top of the the spire there.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I know we talked about them a bit last year or two couple years ago when we were recovering

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: when we're doing some lore work or at least they got talked about

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_03]: but I noticed that there were three things that we could see in this particular shot.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Some sort of book or scroll that looked very heavy and big very Talmudic in some ways.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: There was some sort of decoration that was some sort of a bird or a swan that was in a bit of a

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: heart shape it's too small to be a shield but maybe something that you would I don't know

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what objective it was and then there was a sword.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I couldn't remember if the sword is Narsil or not if that was confirmed from

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: season one but I was trying to remember I don't recall what those other two things were I don't

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03]: know if either of you had points of view on them.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember what the identification of the sword was and I remember somebody did say oh yes this

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is such and such because of so-and-so and I'm not sure if that's been confirmed but I do believe

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that in fact that is a shield because it matches the device that Tuor picked up in Vinyamar

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: when he was instructed by Ulmo to go and put on the armor and take up the weapons that had been

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: left in this deserted elvish stronghold. Okay. And then go to Gondolin that he would send him a

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: guide to take him to the secret city and that when Tuor gone saw him wearing these things

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he would realize that yes this is someone who has come from Ulmo his story is true

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I should listen to it but maybe I won't anyway.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Because reasons basically not wanting to give up his realm loving too much the work of his hands

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: which was almost warning to him not to do. So they describe these very specifically as having a swan's

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: wing and swans are associated with his journey and so forth so that's how I've interpreted

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_03]: it. Right right and I think even in season one there were more artifacts in that room that

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we saw. Yes yes I think we saw somebody or there's acts probably implied to be

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Horen's acts which would have been extraordinary because he was you know overwhelmed by orcs and

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: all the way by Balrogs and set in a chair by Morvath and I don't know who was supposed to

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: have gone to the battlefield and rescued the axe. There was a cleanup from the new

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Nordea. Okay. Jess hands will wave it will wave it. Well it's certainly the showrunners

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03]: having little fun little wink wink and oh definitely definitely see we do know our lore.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering did either of you feel that

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Eorien's adoption into the inner circle was a bit abrupt?

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think so because there was also a period of we didn't see them well the

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Numenoreans were in Middle Earth right. Presumably there was a decent amount of time between that.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03]: For me it doesn't I didn't find it yeah no I didn't find it jarring at all it seemed

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_03]: natural enough. They signaled it early enough in the episode and then so that when she's there

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: with the conspirators I didn't feel like it was jarring. Oh well I knew that her change of heart

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: had happened but to be so close to the inner circle was what I was kind of questioning but it is

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: true that Kemman introduced her to Fatterzone and she was picked to do the the tomb work so I

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: guess they were you know seating these little hints but yeah oh my gosh you know the last time

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: we saw her she was I guess just more on the edge of it and now she's just right deep in and everybody's

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: listening eagerly to everything she has to say. A conspirator. So a little bit of heavy foreshadowing

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: as well here is oh it's plain enough for today right? Yeah yeah yeah I thought that was good

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_05]: dialogue though all of that interaction I thought that was you know the way that

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Valendil is like hey you know the queen lost her sight saving your brother. Yes I mean even though

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_05]: she wasn't successful she sacrificed a big part of herself in that effort. Right. This is a

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: monarch who cares for the people and puts herself on the line to prove. In fact think back to the

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: speech that she made when she announced she was going to go I will not ask any numerorian to

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: go into danger that I will not go into myself. Therefore I will escort Galapagal back to Middle

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Earth. Meanwhile Farisone sits at home hanging out in the pubs consolidating power right? Yes

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly yeah but I love a good sedition brewing in a pub sorry that was awkward construction but

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I'd rather have the ale except I wouldn't really because I don't think I could see

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Farisone doing like a Tevye thing about tradition in Numenor you know I think I think he pulled off.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I just see him counting logs from forests. All right so let's go on to Adar.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Adar as followers try to convince him not to go to war against Sauron but he insists it's

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_05]: necessary to ensure Sauron's defeat. Adar recruits Damrod hill troll of the Erid Mithrin.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_03]: That was an interesting twist I was not expecting that at all it was a big cool yeah

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: talk about a big boy. We saw a lot of behind the scenes of Bear McCreary bringing in metal artists

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to sing and to bang on drums and so forth for Damrod's music. Yeah the intro music

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: for it was definitely cool. One of his honorifics was Eater of Dragon bones I was like

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_03]: that was cool. Yeah because dragons correct me if I'm wrong aren't they're present but they don't

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_03]: feature regularly in Tolkien's world right I mean we have smells. They're mostly gone at this point.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Right yeah they were a lot more common in earlier days and they kind of tended to stick

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: it in one region generally but did he write a lot about them are there a lot of stories

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: about dragons? Well in the first age in Tzimorrelian their invention by Morgoth was a major

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: major event and we have Laorung who curses all of Hordyn's family and

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: enacts the curse and yeah and then and Collagon the Black who's supposed to be the size of a 747

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah no they're they're significant but more in the first age than in the second. Let me

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_05]: know when you get to that chapter John. It's coming well Marilyn has already claimed it so

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: okay. But you can come on. I just want to talk about Tordyn Tordyn Bar so.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay I was going to have you come on too when I talked to Maester Anthony on my third podcast

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_05]: on Baron and Luthien. Which you David or me? David. You oh me oh yeah. Oh oh. Because

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Baron Luthien's a good story and I know you like talking to Maester Anthony. Big stuff big stuff.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_05]: You can go on to Marilyn if you want. Oh sure if you're willing to have that long in the episode

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: great I'd love to. It's a party. Damrod certainly has some animus for Sauron so what's up with that?

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I wondered myself David this is this is an entirely new character. Sauron yeah

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: was that like a good thing or a bad thing like I want to eat his bones thing or

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: like you called me here but you're not really the boss I think they left it a

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh interesting yeah I took it as he hates him. I think the whole point of all these characters

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_05]: is they're like we're so tired of these bosses who don't care about us. Yeah and we just live

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_05]: in peace and they so they just want to get rid of anybody who might stomp on them. Although let

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: us also recognize that Damrod is delivering the head of the messenger that Adar sent.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah back to the feet of Adar. I'm not sure that I would use the word caring in this context

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and Adar is clearly upset but is smart enough to just not bring it up right.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Erad Mithrin is where? That's a great question I don't know. I'm trying to remember it's a

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: mountain range. Okay the gray mountains yeah gray. Gray mountains okay so the gray mountains would be

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the north part of Mordor I think? The northern range? It connects with the misty mountains yeah.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh okay yeah okay so that's way up at the top then yes it would have to be because they were

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: talking about trolls and the Ettin Moors are north of the gray. And it does say

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Doronsfolk, Dragons and Orcs all lived there. Right so dragons were there. Excellent.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say with the this Uruk who had expressed doubts earlier we see him now he has a

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: child. Yes he has a family an Orc family setting and there will be some interest

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: with some of our rings and rituals listeners because this topic actually came up in a question.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and I think it goes into that whole thing too of can you know is everyone is anyone

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: redeemable? Is everyone redeemable Tolkien struggling with Orcs and like you know how

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_03]: he conceived of them and there's even a big conversation there has been and I think it's

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_03]: it feels like it's more resolved than it was within the D&D community where the sort of

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_03]: idea of bioessentialism. It's like well that's just an evil race and they're always evil and

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: people are like really like do we are we really doing this? And we've come around now and it's

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: pretty much like Orcs are now player character player character playable races can I say that right?

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You could play an Orc as a player character and it's not an essentially evil thing that's just to

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_03]: be a target for the heroes to mow down. And it's been an interesting it's been interesting

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: to see that conversation resolve itself within the community over time.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody told Baldur's Gate though.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: No I find that fascinating and I'd love to know what Tolkien thought of it because he really did

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: struggle with the whole question of what you said David, are Orcs redeemable? And

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: they seem to be setting Adar and his Uruks to contrast with what I am guessing will be the Orcs

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that Sauron develops after he's done with all the ring making and starts to expand his power.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure that a lot of those of Adar's Uruks are going to survive

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: because Adar of course literally means father and so here we see another Orc father

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: which is quite fascinating. And again I think this particular Orc because he looks

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: more elvish than some of his other fellow Orcs was one of the originals

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and might be not one of the 13 were Adar but one of the very early ones to be tortured into

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: conversion. So yeah they are forming a family not just those three but this whole group

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they've got their father and they've got their land and I really understand why a lot of them

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_03]: him confides in him. He's saying until we know that Sauron is dead we have to be

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03]: right. The implication being we have to be a little bit more we have to range beyond our

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: local area here. And even more when he says it is the son's place to trust the father.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that was a good one. I mean whoever imagined Orcs saying that to one another.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and I'm wondering if we're working on vampire rules if Adar gets killed do his Orcs

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_05]: turn back into elves and humans. No I'm just kidding. Yeah I'm just kidding.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_05]: No vampire rules here they're corrupted. I don't think so yeah.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So let's go to the Dwarven Ring segment. So K'lubrim'bor offers rings of powers to

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_05]: rings of power to Doran, For and Disa in exchange from Mythbro. Doran expresses

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_05]: doubts about Sauron believing he is not truly a friend of Elrond. Disa tries to convince Doran to

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_05]: bring the offer to Doran III. After they leave Anatar tells K'lubrim'bor Gil-Galad does not

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_05]: want rings given to other peoples of Middle-Earth and K'lubrim'bor sends a message to the

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_03]: High King to say he's shutting down the forge. I think in this the back half of the scene

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_03]: is this where you thought Sauron made a little oopsie step?

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. Yeah. Really? I thought this was brilliant.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_05]: But he made it think that he made K'lubrim'bor think it's his own idea to lie to his own High

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03]: King. I thought that that was a pivot. I think he led on, that was my interpretation,

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: is he led on a little bit more oopsie and then he's like ah crap what would I say what

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_03]: would I say what would I say. Oh oh here we go here's my play and then he turned on him.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. He was misinterpreting the relationship between Elrond and Doran.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And that sets Doran up right away. Now K'lubrim'bor might not have been as aware of that,

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: although he probably was because he was at that dinner when Prince Doran, you know the famous

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: table scene. So he would have known something about the relationship between Elrond and Prince

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Doran. I did really enjoy when Doran goes Elrond wouldn't say that he'd never be that nice.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. Exactly. And so here's Sauron thinking he knows everything about everyone

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and suddenly he's finding out maybe I don't. And also I love the ways in which this mirrors

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: what Tolkien said about the dwarves being stubborn and therefore less susceptible to

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: corruption. Right. And less controllable. Yeah yeah I thought that too, I thought that too. You

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: can't sugar talk dwarves like you can talk men. Well you can entice them with wealth for sure.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah you could entice them with wealth and power. If you're using the right,

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah and he was using the wrong thing. He was trying to stroke his ego. Right.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Right. Which works beautifully on K'lubrim'bor let us say.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think to the point that he doesn't even, I got the sense that Sauron was a little surprised at the

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_03]: size of K'lubrim'bor's ego here or the the length that K'lubrim'bor would go. And I think that's

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of where I think the misstep came in. He didn't realize wow this guy,

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_03]: K'lubrim'bor really has a high opinion of himself. I mean more than I thought that he did.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_05]: That's the kind of way I was interpreting it. I mean to me we didn't get a smirk or anything but

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_05]: to me I thought internally Sauron was like oh yeah. Now he's even severing his bonds with Gilgallad.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I don't even have to worry about that anymore. Yeah, well he found his way in. I mean I'm not sure

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_02]: if Gilgallad doesn't even know that Anatar is there which Anatar himself says.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02]: How is he supposed to know all about what the king is up to and what the king is feeling

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and thinking? I mean that was a little slippy to me. Well I think the idea was he was he's doing like

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I really shouldn't tell you what they were saying at the council but

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_05]: they were saying this and I didn't really agree with it but things were said right use the passive

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_05]: voice. Things were said. Yeah definitely but what council when? I'm saying because he said that

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_05]: he was in Linden and it worked and didn't he basically imply that he was sent from Linden?

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting. Yeah I didn't read that that he was actually said but I guess you're right maybe I'm

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_05]: just forgetting it. He now says oh well they don't actually know I'm here but he did say he

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_05]: definitely say he was in Linden in the first episode. Okay yeah I'm starting to remember that

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: now. What I think in this scene is most notable is that this is really the most strong and open sign

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that Kililbrimbor is a descendant of Feanor. Oh yes it's the pride of the creator

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and that pride of the creator is a definite point of doom as far as Tolkien is concerned.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's the last descendant of Feanor in Middle Earth. Right. Yeah I definitely think we saw a

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_05]: little bit of Feanor. I think last season I think I said this last episode too I feel like I'm in

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Groundhog's Day a little bit but I think last season we saw him a lot more like oh yes we'll

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_05]: do this little thing but now we definitely see what his core is which is I want to do something

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_05]: great I want to be remembered and boy will he be remembered. Yeah well unfortunately for not

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly what he thinks. Right. And I think it is that fact of accomplishment I finally done it.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: My whole life I have worked for this moment and finally I have it and no one is going to take

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_05]: it from me. Right. And he here's the genius of Sauron here is that he both allows Kililbrimbor

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_05]: to stroke his own ego and he gives him a plausible noble cause which is Middle Earth is crumbling

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_05]: and you are the one to save it. Yeah look how well it works for the elves already. He's like

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_05]: well Gilgallad is the hubris. Gilgallad is the proud one it's been a long week guys. Gilgallad

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_05]: is the proud one he's the one trying to keep solutions away from the other people to Middle

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Earth you're the one for the people you're the hero of Middle Earth I mean that's just

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly what he wants to hear. So of course in the first instance the minute that it suggested

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Kililbrimbor that they make rings for humans he's definitely not for that.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah doesn't have a good opinion. No humans are corruptible no we didn't know no human

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_05]: right no rings for humans. But he's working on it he's working on it. Yeah. For sure. Right.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Right. Just make a few extra rings don't worry about what happened.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_03]: By the way I just looked up Erid Mithrin it is at the very top of Merckwood and it's at the top

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: of the Anduin River it's basically the headwaters. Yes the gray mountains at the far eastern end

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of them is the Iron Hills and that's where Dianne's people come from so I remember now thank you.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a long way to go for our big fine friend there to walk down. It's like three steps.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got large strides. They've been very large strides. That's a that's a stroll.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_05]: All right let's go to a quick break actually before we get back to the episode.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're back. Isildur meets a friend. Isildur finds the remains of the

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Numenorean army before he is attacked by a woman in waiting named Estrid. They realize they're on

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_05]: the same side and begin to travel together to Pilar Gear on the way they're caught in a trap

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_05]: made by maybe some wild men who wrote this oh Marilyn possibly some wild men that's what

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Erandir says the followers of Adara that's what I think. Yeah for sure. Yeah yeah because

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_03]: they're the one they steal the horse and they take it back to their camp and they're

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: right right. I think they're escapees from Adara. I don't think that they are loyal to him.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_05]: No I think they're trying to capture people for his enslavement.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Well could be could be I did I just didn't read it that way and Adara says I mean excuse me

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Erandir said later on that the wild men are everywhere and you have to watch out for them

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_03]: but then when they go to steal the horseback

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_03]: that's when you know they have to you know what's his name shows he doesn't have the same scar

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Theo doesn't have the same scarring. Right that's true that's true so anyway just to finish the

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_05]: scene recap the follower steal Barak but Isildur and Estrid escape with the help of Erandir.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So on episode two we talked a little bit about the you know is this too close of a

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Jacksonian call out and I was curious if the drinking from the the waters was a little bit to

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_03]: dead marshes for you guys. Oh interesting hadn't even occurred to me. Yeah I didn't even oh really

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't even cross my mind. Oh okay yeah because in the movies you know the seeing all the bodies

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_03]: just under the surface there this was exactly what what Isildur was looking at which oh now

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_03]: that you think no I think about it that's an interesting call back because obviously Isildur

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_03]: is later involved in a whole lot of battles that make those make those marshes right. Yep

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely wow look at that gosh I figured something out on my well done well done no I just figured

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it was it was a very good way for him to get some boots and a sword fair enough right yeah that

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_03]: that was my reading okay and he does find a saddle in the thing where she's hiding so at first I was

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_03]: like how did he get a saddle and then when I on my second watch I picked it up yeah yeah.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_05]: He they can just fabricate them because they're just that good with horses yeah exactly I would

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: not be wanting to drink any water in sort of a Mordor region oh Lord no that would just

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: be instantly bad but I guess maybe he's Numenorean so his intestinal fortitude she is stronger

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_05]: than the average man you know um one thing I'll say is I really liked the way that they dealt with

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_05]: the medical issue of like wait am I supposed to take it out no wait I'm not sure I'm supposed to

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_05]: take it out it was funny that was great I thought the dialogue was really fun I was kind of charmed

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_05]: by their interaction right away good stuff good stuff I'm liking them I'm liking them from the

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: beginning did did either of you read the sexual undertones in this she's like working on his crotch

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and he's grabbing the the wheel thing in a very like I I read a lot of sexual attention in that

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_03]: that little setup so I didn't but yeah good for you it was there it seemed pretty pretty

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: pleasant to me present to me there so well it very well could be um I think at this point

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: is a little bit more concerned with surviving he was concerned with a different kind of penetration

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_03]: well and and about getting stabbed I was a little bit nervous where they put that because

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the femoral artery area there and they were both lucky they should have moved it over a

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_03]: little bit you know that seemed a little bad uh bad spot so um they're headed to Palalga

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Palargaer thank you gosh it has been a long week it's only middle of the week yes um

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_03]: a little lore check on that what can we say about that because it's an old Numenorean settlement

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_05]: sure is sure is they settled I think this was actually around the time of Aldarian wasn't it

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yes it was it was the southernmost I believe of all the harbors that he established

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_02]: he was more there was a one between Palaguer and Lindon which um got destroyed a number of times in

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the course of his absences yeah and there might have been more but those those are the three that

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm most familiar with yeah and and Aldarian started basically the tradition of so the men

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_05]: of Middle Earth had basically been forsaken by the Valar and a lot of the elves at the

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_05]: end of the first age so Aldarian started going over to Middle Earth and bringing the Numenorean

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_05]: technology being like all right here's how to like do food safety and farm and things like that

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_05]: like um you know I think he did a lot of good work and then the subsequent generations of Numenorian

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_05]: did a lot of really good work in sort of teaching the men of Middle Earth both forgotten and new

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_05]: technologies and leader that kind of stops right the Numenoreans stop going over there so much

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_05]: and they kind of forget what they were doing and that's why this Palar Gear outpost has become

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of abandoned right there's somewhat derelict yeah I think Aldarian was mostly interested

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in establishing harbors and a seafaring culture because he was thinking in terms of okay it's

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: big island but it's limited and our population is only growing right so we need to have new

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: places to go to and oh by the way sure we can we can you know give some aid to the folks the humans

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: here who are clearly having a hard time with it but he was also very much engaged I believe

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_02]: with Gilgallad in the when Gilgallad recognized that Sauron seemed to be stirring again and

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: taking shape and that this would affect both of them because he was of old the enemy of both of

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_02]: their peoples how much of that is going to show up here I don't know but um it was I think it was

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_02]: probably subsequent generations that really got going on the you know bringing agriculture and so

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02]: on and let's not forget the ant wives the ant wives are rumored to have taught culture to

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_02]: humans well it's agro sorry taught agriculture to humans interesting because they were interested

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in planting gardens and so forth and and uh they're often represented as harking back to

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_05]: sheaves of of grain and so forth if you want a quick summary of the Aldarian and Arenda spot

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_05]: line just listen to the song brandy by looking glass don't know it really it's a whole

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_05]: it's a whole song about a man who's in love with a woman but he's like no the sea keeps calling

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_05]: me so I have to you know the song going back well there you go you know the song brandy you're a fine

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_05]: girl what a good wife you would be but my life my love and my lady are the sea interesting I wonder

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: if they are very much aldar and our end yeah that's funny I never made that connection that's funny

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah too bad Aldarian didn't have the wisdom and the emotional intelligence to say that exactly

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah yeah he did a lot of stringing along of Arenda's but Arenda's does have uh you know there's

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_05]: even references to Arenda's in this in the fact that she's the one who started the tradition of wearing

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_05]: the uh the jewel on the forehead right as the ruler of Numenor rather than a crown yes yes

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and we still have that with Muriel uh yeah and she wears a big one uh this uh during her

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_03]: coronation as well right what do we think of Aranda's return

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_05]: heartbreaking rather explosive yeah let's let's let's bring in let's bring in Bronwyn's

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_05]: plot line here just oh you want to discuss that all along yeah altogether uh so the next one is

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_05]: called goodbye Bronwyn Isildur follows Aranda to Pilar Gear where he holds a funeral pyre for

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_05]: we we know this was the actor's choice not to come back

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: yes I don't know that I was following that news can maybe maybe recap it really quick if there's

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: a detail or two that you can share she's just announced shortly before the season

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05]: she had chosen not to come back to pursue other things okay interesting mostly what she was pursuing

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_05]: is um activism okay actually she I think she said that that was unrelated

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_05]: oh okay in the end it was it was she just didn't want to come back to the show which

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: that's a shame it's interesting so that that that's a bit of a scramble to re right because that's

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: one of the things that I remember you know season one making uh some waves is because

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the elf human relationship is such a special thing and there's only a handful of them

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was a big deal that they were doing it on television

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah well that could have contributed eventually to the ancestral line of Prince Imar Hill in the

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: third age because his family line was supposedly had uh elvish connection which is why he's weird

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: less well but I gotta say you know from the very beginning of season one I said please don't

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: kill off Bronwyn and make few into a Nazgul you know the the whole Anakin story over again come on folks

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_05]: you know I don't think that was the intention I think this was probably no I don't I think this

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: was the best they could make with the fact that they were losing this major character

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting though that they chose to recast a daughter and they did not yeah that's a really

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_05]: good point they didn't well I think it's probably about like how central that plot line was right

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: well it's also the famous dead mother trope yeah which I can talk more about the woman always dies

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: trope yeah a following scene right well and then that it traumatizes the kid and then that kid goes on

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and becomes a pivotal pivotal uh plot point I find myself hoping that at some point they're

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna have a flashback in which Theo remembers his mother saying to him find the light and the

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: um particularly given the relationship that develops between Theo and his elder

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_05]: you know right of characters that we know will develop we have the Nazgul of course

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_05]: but and and I think Theo is a contender for that but I think he's also a contender

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: for the king of the gray host yes that's that's where I see him most and where I hope he will

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_05]: wind up because that's a redemption arc at least in the end exactly I did stumble upon a

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: a reddit thread about that today I was looking for some I was looking for a symbol of the

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: southland the king of the southlands because I wanted to look at it compared to the

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: opening credits just to see if there was some visual things there but it's it's something else

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: and I figured out what the what it was but anyway um there it was there was like oh yeah and

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_03]: there's the guy with the crown and you know it's him and da da da and I was like okay I gotta go

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't read this stuff yeah I mean if you're if you're a dear listener if you're trying to

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_05]: recall Peter Jackson remember Aragorn goes through the mountains and he's like hey

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I summon you to fulfill your oath and then the gray host comes and and so those people

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_05]: were from this era like this is from this era we it could very well be that some of

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: these people we see right now are in that gray host yep yep although it was a green host but

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know whatever yeah yeah I mean the scrubbing bubble host to cleanse the castle

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_05]: all right shall we talk about the dwarven struggle here are we gonna talk about

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the conversation about dead mothers but that doesn't now or that's uh that's with the

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_05]: sildor and Theo later isn't it yes it is and astrid yeah yeah there's okay by the way

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_05]: it's it's different characters yeah I keep time there was an astrid extra in season one

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and now there is an astrid in season two um okay so let's talk to the dwarven struggle uh

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Narvi brings news to doran three that the people will soon request the opening of

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_05]: the royal grain reserves which will last about three months before they can come in doran four

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: arrives to apologize to his father and bring him the offer from calibre and bore doran four

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_05]: expresses his distrust of the power calibre more offers which I love that they flipped on its head

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_05]: right that doran was all for helping nails and trusting nails first and now he's like

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_05]: okay but this guy not him yes but you also see that like

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I actually like doran three less now because doran three was all ready to be like well

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_05]: that's just the way of the world the elves are just gonna have to leave the world but now that

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_05]: it's his people on the line he's like well we have to do it now right so he's just he's completely

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_05]: self-motivated he's not which you know you have to be a little bit self-motivated when you're

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_05]: king like for your own people but yes I mean he really changes his tune quite quickly

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: when it's his own people on the line and I think it's very brave of prince doran who has

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: just started to rebuild a very tentative bridge with his father to quote his father's own words back

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: at him yeah I mean he does it very well but um wow and and it's extremely brave I think the

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_05]: bravest thing he does here is apologize right is he of course actually gives a genuine apology

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_05]: even though he gets nothing back from his father yeah you noticed that huh yeah okay well we all

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: have our father issues it's fine the father can say it to desa you can't say it to his son yet

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: right and I hope to goodness he gets a chance to before it all goes south yeah I mean it's it's

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_05]: crazy narvi seems to have come out of nowhere I will say that I they didn't really introduce him

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't even think they've named him in the show yet but we know that that is narvi from the promotional

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: materials oh yeah sorry no it's quite clear that he's not me didn't one of the crowd call out his name

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: at some point I thought I don't recall but yeah I think in the earlier episode it's like give

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: your report now narvi or something like that okay okay yeah normally I had subtitles oh that it

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: would help yep yeah alas it does help to reinforce the the presence of names doesn't it yep all right

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_05]: let's talk about ishildur theo theo treats ishildur's wound and laments his inability to save his mother

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_05]: from a poisoned orc arrow arondir expresses his relief at seeing ishildur and insists

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: that elendil did not abandon him arondir gives praise to theos healing skills

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_05]: and compares the loss of the southlands to the destruction of balerian

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_05]: theo tries to sever his relationship with arondir then offers to help ishildur find barric

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: very sad theo is uh not having it you're not my dad so go away yeah and you don't even know who my

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: dad was right right yeah but how does theo know where to find barric that's one of my question

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: my guess is that he's just out in the woods you know doing stuff do you think he's actually

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: hanging out with some of these well they didn't like him when he showed up they didn't recognize him so

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: well he ran into the wrong bunch I don't know yeah so I don't know I just it's it's an interesting

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: plot hole at this point maybe it will be explained subsequently I mean I could see it yes he's

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: warning the woods and happens to oversee or happens to hear the horse or whatever he's gonna

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_03]: track him or something you know or get out gathering uh herbs and things like that so

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: anyway I like the big brother vibe that I'm getting from ishildur yeah towards theo

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's also a nice contributor to the to the character arc yeah well then but they

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: they both have dead mothers and so does estrid yes that's true yeah and that's what I mean about the

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: dead mother trope you know um it's a standard fairy tale convention it's partly so that the child can

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: then be free to go forth into the world and do things which they wouldn't do if they had

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: living in responsible parents hey but uh rather than of Larry David and curb your enthusiasm when

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_05]: he like go tries to go to heaven at the end of one season because he like dies in surgery or something

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_05]: and his mother hits him so hard he goes back into his body and lives that's funny

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's a good device as the sort of a an emotional linkage between ishildur and theo

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like that sure um did estrid's mother really have to be dead too I mean obviously it makes

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: sense in terms of what we are imagining her past to be and interesting that she's trying to burn off the

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the adar symbol right um you know he won't like me if he thinks that I came from an hour

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or is she you know is she a deep spy is she deliberately planted to learn about what's

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: going on in pologier for uh for adar I don't know I do like the ambiguity here because

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_05]: there's there could be many reasons she's burning off that scar some good some bad

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: right right exactly yeah and how she could account for it oh I spilled some water over my back I mean

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah yeah I'm telling you people are getting stabbed they're burning their own flesh with

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_03]: red hot knives these are pretty healthy people drinking water from yeah yeah everything everybody's

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: good here ever heard of tess and terry like I've polluted by dead bodies hello right and in a

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_03]: degree of burn from that hot knife on your back no I don't want to think about this

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_05]: it's not great also she doesn't really wait very long after they walk away

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_05]: they kind of just like get out that was pretty much still in earshot she's like

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_05]: what are you doing buddy I feel like this is very loud

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah they didn't turn back and go is she okay right right exactly what was that all about

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: on the other hand estrid does seem to be showing better sense than the sealed door

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: at time and again she's she's definitely more experienced in in the whole rough and tumble

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and and you know don't help the old man with the food and you know well it's sealed or grew up

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_05]: in a privileged position precisely privileged land right they have a certain water and they have

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_05]: their you know their brita filter aqueducts and and uh I just saw a tech talk where somebody said

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I used a brita filter when I was camping instead of getting like actual purification I got very

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sick don't do that and I was like what no no just don't just know that's all right that's my advice

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_05]: to you people on listening if you go camping get actual water purification tablets or whatever

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_05]: you're else people actually recommend who do this instead of brita filters which are for your sink

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: water it definitely shows a lack of knowledge of what actually happens from the water from the

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: point it comes to the source at the point it comes out of your tap yeah there are more

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: things involved unless it's your own well water but even then yeah all right enough about water

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_05]: safety let's get to uh

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_05]: the next conversation actually that we kind of talked about a little bit already but

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: a seal door meeting estrid um estra estrid and a seal door share a fire and their survivors guilt

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_05]: a seal door admits he secretly swam out too far before his mother drowned saving him

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_05]: theo watches the conversation and tears up before calling a seal door to him

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_05]: estrid burns at ours mark off her neck we kind of talked about it already but yeah I uh

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I do think it's interesting that nobody knows or at least he thinks nobody knows

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that he was the reason his mother drowned well I think you well that's this that's a

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_03]: print this is the primary motive that's driving him right and that's revealed now

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and we were weren't we theorizing about what happened with her in season one

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: so this is like a closing of that uh loop so that you know we can actually get a seal door

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_05]: moving forward a little bit as a character also I mean it's it's really interesting to me

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_05]: that she says I don't think you can live up to that

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah and you did treat it as a gift that was very talky and to me definitely and also very

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: emotionally intelligent yeah survival's guilt versus accepting the reality of of the situation

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: right and she did it because she loved you right and you know you were 10 or whatever it was and

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you know sure probably at some point somebody had said to you don't swim out too far and

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you're 10 you cast boundaries and yeah golly that was that was a really

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: unfortunate one to test I remember thinking at some point that her she might have drowned as

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: as some sort of a um reference to the faithful and and the sacrifice sacrifice by the faithful

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that was that was what we were by the kingsman waiting on by the kingsmen exactly yeah exactly

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_05]: and where is an audience hello great question wasn't he name-checked once last season

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: he was yes so he does exist the family dinner yeah the family dining out yeah

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: at least at least he was named checked he's not gone no it'd be really nasty if they just decided

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: he was one person too many to deal with because you know he certainly has plot armor as far as

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: soul can is concerned right right up to a certain point going back half a step I forgot

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: to mention this a little bit earlier but uh Marilyn I had a question for you you know when

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Isildur and Theo are talking you know gathering water at the well thing and

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Isildur says you know well it's an aqueduct and of course I immediately went to all right but

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: apart from sanitation medicine education wine public order irrigation roads the fresh water system

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: in public health what have the new minorians ever done for us yeah so yeah there you go that's a

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_03]: money python line john from life of brian if you can catch that reference I do I do like my life of

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_03]: brian but I haven't watched it in a while right that's where they're having the meeting about

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and somebody says well what is the Romans ever given yes yes yes yeah yes nice catch yep that's

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_05]: good all right so Theo is captured next Theo distracts the at our acolytes at our at our lights

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone well it's something you add to your water to get yeah to the aqueduct it helps clean the

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_05]: aqueduct there we go so the at our acolytes well as soon as the seal door releases barric

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_05]: the at our lights are attacked by an unseen force and Theo runs into something huge dropping a sword

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and getting captured as seal door escapes bum bum bum tree peoples there was a tease it's probably

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the end wives right almost certainly yeah almost certainly because there there was like

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: brushy sounding stompy sounds and then obviously he looks up like what else I mean if it were

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: who's our troll buddy's name oh damrod if or damrod I think it would be a different

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_05]: different reaction yeah for sure I think by episode six the ent wife might finish introducing herself

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe the ent wise talk a little faster than the episode five then maybe that was part of their

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_05]: their dilemma would you please slow down let's get to the main event I think of this episode the

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_05]: big plot twist before we you know don't have any more access to screenage for another week

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_03]: or for yeah you know what I mean few days until they till they deign to give them to us exactly

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_05]: the coronation in new manure muriel is about to take the scepter held by the ruler on the

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: island when a arian arrives to accuse her to accuse of using the polleteer

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_05]: faras own feigned support for the queen regent and offers to destroy it

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: when she orders him not to elindio tries to take it for her but is sent back by a burst of energy

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_05]: an eagle arrives and faras own approaches it leading to leading the people to take his side

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: chant his name and everything well and it was the lord from the north that starts the chant

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah feels above yeah he sees the uh he sees the opportunity and and um and seizes it yes

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly and it's a question is is fair as did faras own was faras own just taken with the

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_03]: eagle you know like gosh I want to be close to this thing like or did he was he actually trying

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_03]: to use this uh it was just like he was improvising for sure sure but did he think it was going to

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_03]: try that that's kind of you know but I yeah I don't know if he if he knew that it was going

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: to result in him you know having received the blessing you know perceived to have received

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the blessing of the eagle right because the eagle was like looking over at muriel going

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: hey who's this dude you know I came right I came for you not this guy yes yes and so

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: flying away in that situation maybe not the best of decision right well the only other thing you

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_03]: could have done is like packing his head yeah that gets messy yeah not the sort of thing yeah

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: not the sort of thing you know yeah expect from uh eagles of manue yeah that whole thing was a

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: bit more ambiguous to me than than I thought it might have been yeah I thought it was definitely

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_05]: coding as a misinterpretation by the people that they were for him and they were really from muriel

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah yeah I mean by that time the whole thing had broken down anyway so how are they supposed

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to know who the eagle came for the eagle knew who he was coming for or she was coming for right

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: right um but um it's the whole thing about who gets to interpret the signs and symbols

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: right right and the first person to leap into the breach with an interpretation that favors

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: themselves right usually winds up being the winner one interesting another greek reference that I got

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: here um Eaurian as Eris the goddess of strife and discord casting the apple of discord amongst

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the gods and goddesses of Greece and saying that the apple goes to the most beautiful of the goddess

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_05]: mm-hmm right you too can sign up for our discord via the link tree in the show notes

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: this is what starts the church in war basically okay okay so deep cut there but wow that's exactly

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: what I thought of and again it just it seems so somehow so sudden to me but I don't know I think

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_05]: we saw some unrest with the people last season right this this idea of this anti-elf oh yeah no

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'm in a audience yeah no I'm fine with her changing that fast yeah yeah I guess

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: how old do you think she is uh like I think late teens early 20s okay yeah because some of the

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_05]: things she's doing seem very young to me yeah and but but again like who hasn't had like a

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_05]: like when I was in when I was 17 I was yelling about libertarianism that's you know like we all just

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_05]: we go through these phases where we try to experiment with ideas and unfortunately she's

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_05]: in a position where she experiments with ideas it's dangerous and she has incredible power exactly

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_05]: really mess things up most of us get to experiment with ideas without doing permanent harm to the

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_05]: world she unfortunately is doing it at a time like I do think from the beginning she expressed

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: skepticism of the elves yes I mean she I think of her own person objected to the war yeah and said so

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and tried to get Kevin to convince his father to stop the war and his father schools Kevin and in

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the mech evalian politics of that he is following at what point I wish we could have seen a scene

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in which phatozon looked at his you know less than satisfactory to him son's girlfriend

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and thought okay here's a way in because she had he had to have known that ellendil was of the

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: faithful and would assume that all of his children were likewise so it would have been interesting

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to see phatozon watching a audience and listening to her and realizing oh okay maybe I have a weak

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: spot here and I can nudge it along and she's on the she's on the inside of a group that I need

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: more information about and she can bring this about in a way that will bring perhaps more of

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the former faithful to my side or something I don't know I'm speculating wildly here but

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah yeah I would like to see one other scene in which phatozon considers a audience

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and her qualities and her use to him because clearly that's all that's important to him

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I think they were trying to make him a little bit more opaque last season

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_05]: whereas we know where he's going but perhaps you don't if you're watching the show

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's should be interesting to hear from people who don't know any of the

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the background of this whole thing what they think of characterization of a audience and

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: she seems so much less certain of herself yeah throughout the whole first season and now all

[01:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of a sudden she's talking with the most powerful men and throwing down you know

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: elvish forbidden objects and creating strife knowingly and all the rest of it so well if she's been

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_05]: you know kingsman faithful if she's been kingsman minded her whole life and her dad and her brothers

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_05]: are saying you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong he fine she finally has

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_05]: this new family to hang out in that says you're right

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_05]: in building now right sure sure I think that's reasonable anyway go ahead David

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: what was the deal with the blast of energy like other people question this thing and he touches

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_03]: it she she drops it out of her cloth

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and but he touched it with his bare hands so

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to ask the show winners David they're using the Palantir in a way that are just

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: completely outside the lore so yeah okay we just don't have any reference points now no idea

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_05]: it was very much like sarah's blast at the end at the beginning it's true episode one

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a good point yeah yeah it's an elvish artifact

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_05]: made by perhaps feanor that it's it's speculated in the silver alien you know it's it's basically

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_05]: definitely noldor probably feanor people say well and Gandalf himself says well he and

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Pippen are galloping towards ministeria you know made possibly by the hand of feanor

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I love to look into it and see the mind in hand of feanor at work so

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there was a pretty strong connection there even before someone came out nice

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_05]: all right let's talk about this last bit here sarah's rings i'm going to call it

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_05]: during three during four and desa arrive with mithril for the dwarven rings killarimbor takes

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_05]: the mithril but sarah as anatar opens his hand for it and puts it into the forge

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and i am so glad they did it that way yeah yeah well my first question is or does he

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you mean he doesn't he doesn't add it he stretched out his left palm he receives the

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: mithril in his left palm he turns and puts excuse me his right palm he turns to put his right palm

[01:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in his left palm which is partially closed i took it as he drops the object into the forge

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: without revealing to us what it is so you're saying a different substance

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it could be that was my suspicion now maybe i'm just being too suspicious of sarah at this point

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but why not just show the mithril glittering in his palm and him turning over the palm and

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: dropping it in the fact that the palms are closed it's a good point to me secrecy i see what

[01:25:40] [SPEAKER_03]: you're saying there it's a it's a little bit of a sort of three-card monte thing right or the

[01:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: sleight of hand a trickster sleight of hand right right that's that's what i'm wondering we know that

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: sauron loves mithril and coveted and orders the orcs to bring any that they find to him but

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: if they're drawing from that particular piece of lore um i don't know but i'm gonna have to go back

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and uh step through that yeah watch it again see what you think and listeners read in and let us

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: know your thoughts on this yeah it just it felt suspicious i thought he was just doing some

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: magic to it you know and putting his will in his his mouth would have that what's the line pouring

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: all his cruelty in his malice yeah no you could be right yeah i just i just thought he wanted a hand

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in this forging here yes his will to dominate right it's probably the most important ingredient

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_05]: when you're talking making of rings because in the in the books we know he did not have a direct

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_05]: hand in the elven rings but all the other rings he had a direct hand in which is why he's so

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: much more easily dominating those and the showrunners are being a bit cute about exactly how much influence

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: hellbrand had on the forging of the three rings yeah yeah and they seem to be pointing in both

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: directions as we watch their effects on uh the current bears of said rings i i mean i think

[01:27:00] [SPEAKER_05]: to me i would say i think it's perfectly reasonable to say to say the back door is there

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_05]: because he gave them the method but because he didn't have a direct hand that he doesn't have the front

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: door and you have the the full range of elrond's extreme skepticism and throw them in the ocean

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know galadriel's i feel that it is guiding me

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: gilgallad so far seems a bit more in the middle and maybe not quite sure but he's not

[01:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: taking it off his finger yeah no and kyrdan saying yeah this is dangerous and all power is dangerous

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah let's use it for good and make sure that it doesn't fall into the hands of someone who would

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_03]: use it for evil but kyrdan was definitely grooving on having that ring he was like check this out i

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_05]: can make these fish jump and do all this stuff he was really enjoying but he puts the fish back in

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_05]: he says he says look this is what you could do to someone if you had if you were able to

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_05]: exactly in our hands we can put the fish back in the water yes

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah that's actually a really good pull actually that's really important

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: it looks like he he does do the hand trade off but then he sort of no he definitely hasn't in

[01:28:21] [SPEAKER_03]: his hand when he drops it it definitely goes in he has something in his hand he did something

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_03]: goes in his hand but i which drops in yeah okay i mean i didn't read it other than because he kind

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_03]: of pauses and meditates with it in his hand before he drops it adding some of his will to dominate

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly so i don't know that he pulled the switcheroo but he might not have included the

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: mithril because he thought that if you follow the apocryphal story that it contains the light

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of the two trees in it from the silver ale maybe he doesn't want that kind of juice in there

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_05]: i think he does because it's it's the light of valor but it's also very powerful

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_05]: and that's that's what he wants i mean even morgoth yeah he was burned by the silmarils

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: but he still wanted them sure but he saw the original product didn't he yeah i don't know i

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: i could go either way on this but it just i wondered why they chose that particular

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_03]: theatrically influenced method i mean it could have been just blocking you know

[01:29:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the shot set up in the where the four make them a little fancy yeah you know

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_05]: he's like i am the eldest boy just like kindle in succession all right i'm done now i'm done now

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: we've done the episodes guys an hour and a half episode that that's a light episode hey we're

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_05]: getting good and i feel like we've gotten most of our thoughts on these first three episodes

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in yeah yeah previous five hours didn't have like that much stuff in it had lots but not in the

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_05]: same way yeah there was it was a lot of setups yeah mm-hmm yeah i think maryland you're right they

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_05]: could have or who said they could have done two and not three and it would have been that was me

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: i think that was david yeah no i'm all for all three and um one thing i forgot to say earlier

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: was the horror of what happened at mariel's coronation you know in her confusion and yeah

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_05]: mm yeah because she can't even see what's happening she can't see something wrong is happening and

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: elendil was was pushed away from her so he's not there at her elbow to tell her what's happening

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_03]: right right and he was trying to get back to her yep and what's going to happen to her

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah and and what is going to happen to her as the question is she

[01:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: well i think we saw some suggestions in trailers and and what i don't think she goes

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_05]: from number one to number two let's say i think well and given that they're cousins i'm not sure

[01:30:48] [SPEAKER_03]: i'd want her to anyway but that would be pretty bad way for farazone to start off by you know uh having

[01:30:54] [SPEAKER_05]: you know cousin oh he's a master he's not gonna right he would be pretty unpopular right now

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_03]: she's in popular but in direct way to get rid of yeah yeah that's what i'm saying is that he

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_03]: would he would be smarter than to do it to let her be killed by a mob in this situation no more

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_03]: that he can use there's more leverage that he can get out of her being alive than her being killed

[01:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: by a mob at the coronation oh no she accidentally walked off a cliff or into the water yeah not

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: accidentally yeah stay tuned yeah right because we do see that scene that's true so well everyone

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_05]: it's been fun we've done a lot of podcasts this week and we finally come to the end of that run

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_05]: if you're a subscriber on sunday morning we're gonna have the drop of the lower cast we're

[01:31:45] [SPEAKER_05]: going to keep that on a midweek kappa type of schedule midweek in between the two drops

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_05]: and um otherwise keep an eye out on the patreon subscriber feed and the supercast subscriber

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_05]: feed for the 11 z's episode on v for vendetta recording that in a couple of days

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: other things coming out we we we finished recording and tonight early enough that i could

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_05]: actually go watch some of it tonight there you go there you go um well i still got to edit this but

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_05]: all right so on the star wars can a timeline podcast feed this week we have canon miz of

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_05]: the old republic with marilena arpaquilla yes very exciting part one lot of fun and on the wool shift

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_05]: dust book club feed i think that's alicia supercast uh she's got dust part one the dig and part two

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_05]: outside because she's got got a bunch of stuff happening on the wool shift dust book club i

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_05]: guess ahead of silo season two yeah good stuff good stuff david you've also got alien stuff

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_05]: that people should keep an eye out for alien yeah everything everything's out except for the alien

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: romulus uh thing we haven't scheduled that yet but i was just checking it looks like um alien romulus

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: is the one of the second biggest film of the year so far wow yeah behind inside out too

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_03]: that would be yeah 229 million on an 80 million dollar budget so that's pretty good well and

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: then you also got deadpool and wolverine so that's true and dune two we had dune two earlier this

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah but i think that's a smaller audience yeah i don't think that one was this like not that it's

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_05]: not as good i'm just yeah i think it's probably smaller audience uh 200 million sorry actually

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_05]: box office one was 1.6 billion for uh inside out too oh really yeah i think it's top billion yeah

[01:33:36] [SPEAKER_05]: billion wow yeah on a budget of 200 million so they're doing well they're doing well

[01:33:42] [SPEAKER_03]: so that 229 must be i think that might be domestic not international okay because i think inside out

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_03]: too it must be that must be to hit billions it's an international market yeah yeah yeah so

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_05]: you are definitely right oh let's say dune two is 646 million in the united states though

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: okay us in canada all right and two is showing 700 million anyway this is not here nor there

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah why what are we doing here what are we doing here it's been a long week everyone

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_05]: um let's give quick thank yous here for our um oh i still have the jazz from last night sorry

[01:34:14] [SPEAKER_05]: everyone we're doing the same music because i'm not really i'm not loading up anything new

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_05]: works for me discord server boosters gnarls erin k tiller the thriller dork of the ninjas du71

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_05]: captain jingy 56 avina a adrian adreon why am i saying adrian these last two podcasts tina

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_05]: listu and our lore masters samar chan michael g michelle e david w brian p sc peter oh

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_05]: patina w adam s nancy m du71 brian 8063 frederick h sarah l garot c eric f mathew m sarah m dj

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_05]: miwa andre b kuang yu dead i jedi bob nathan t alex v aron t sub zero aron k dally v

[01:34:57] [SPEAKER_05]: mothership 61 gnarls cathe w steward b jeffrey b alisa u and adreon thank you everyone it's always a

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_05]: pleasure to podcast with and for you and we will be back bright and early next week amazon has now

[01:35:17] [SPEAKER_05]: said that the embargoes stop at nine a.m so that's when episodes will drop on thursdays

[01:35:21] [SPEAKER_05]: and uh yeah looking forward to the rest of the season thanks everyone lovely thanks

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_05]: the lorhounds podcast is produced and published by the lorhounds you can send questions and feedback

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and voicemails at thelorhounds.com slash contact get early and ad-free access to all lorhounds

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_05]: podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorhounds any opinions stated are ours personally and

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_05]: do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening