BONUS: S1 Archive—Ep. 02 Never 2 Late 2B Black

[00:00:00] Hey there, you girls, boys, and non-binaries. Welcome to another bonus episode of Dungeons 'n' Durags n Durags from the Archives of Season 1. Enjoy. Be sure to stay after the credits for our patented post-credit sequence or outtakes. Thera Hoot. You are listening to the Ebony Covering Black America Podcast Network. Hi-di-hi-di-ho, you girls, boys, and non-binaries out there.

[00:00:29] My name is Ron Dawson. By day, I own and run a content marketing agency and host a filmmaking podcast. By night, I write personal essays where I call white people on their privilege, evangelicals on their hypocrisy, and hold a mirror up to the black community. Every other week, I'm joined by my black BFFs, JD, an independent filmmaker, and his wife, Yolanda, a media executive and an academy member with 20 plus years of experience in film and TV production. In every

[00:00:56] episode, we explore themes related to race and religion, politics, and pop culture. Shade will be thrown, jokes are made, and provocative conversations will be had. Welcome to Dungeons n Durags, one black nerd's epic podcast of self-discovery and racial identity.

[00:01:42] What you're hearing is a recording of my mother, Sandra, made about 45 years ago. She was a single mom, mother of two nappy-headed little black boys, ages seven and five. She had packed up everything she could fit into a yellow VW bug and drove cross country from Philadelphia, PA to Los Angeles, where she got a new job as a nurse at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, known as Hospital to the Stars.

[00:02:14] This recording was a tape she made for my father, who was living in New Jersey. She would periodically send him these tapes to give him an update on this. He found it in his basement a few years ago, digitized it, and sent it to me. And all I can say is, wow, what a treasure trove. This recording provided me with some very interesting insights. At one point, my mother talks about my daily schedule and she mentions how I get home from school around 2.30, then watch

[00:02:43] television. I remember those days. Lost in Space was my favorite show. Fall forward thrust. We've got to try to build up enough inertial drive to swing over it. Fall forward thrust. It's where I developed one of my earliest childhood crushes. It was on Penny, played by Angela Cartwright. You could argue that this was the start of my lifelong affinity for television and media,

[00:03:11] as well as my crush for white girls on TV. Well, what do you suppose my hair would look like if I put it on top like this? Well now, what brought that on? Well, I mean, we do have to grow up sometime, don't we? I also realized that my penchant to correct people, a really bad habit I have to force myself not to do, can be seen as early as when I was seven.

[00:03:35] When Brandon was singing on that Spanish song, he missed the word, um, um, a number. It really goes like this. Isn't it kind of funny though, and indicative of how so much of our personality as an adult is ingrained at the earliest stages of our lives? Now, half of this 30 minute tape, I think,

[00:04:01] is me talking. And about five or six times I say this is the last thing I'm going to say, but then I just keep on talking and keep on coming back. It's fun watching Lost in Space. And I'll tell you one more. Yet another early indicator of something that would rear its ugly head in the future. My inability to know when just to shut the frack up.

[00:04:34] It's quite possible that this podcast is a prime example of that. As I mentioned on the last episode, I go back and forth on my decision about documenting this journey of my life. You know, am I sharing too much info? Will I just end up embarrassing myself? It definitely strikes fear. But whenever I feel that fear creeping up, I remember a great quote I read from Steven Pressfield, author of The War of Art. It's a book

[00:05:02] that many creatives deem as a must read for anyone who fancies themselves an artist. In it, Pressfield writes, Fear is good. Remember our rule of thumb. The more scared we are of a worker calling, the more sure we can be that we have to do it. So I press on, sharing these stories, interviews, and conversations in blind faith that the end result will be a work of good. Not just for me, but for others out there.

[00:05:34] Reflecting on that tape made by my mother, I can't help but think of her. She passed away way too early back in 2008. And now 13 years later, I still can't talk about her too long without breaking down. So I hope I can get through this. But my mother was a paragon of a strong black woman, raising two kids on her own for so long. By my account, at least seven years before she

[00:05:57] remarried to my stepdad when I was 13. She drove over 3000 miles to give her and her kids a better life. I remember her working late nights at the hospital and taking us with her where my brother and I would sleep under her desk while she made the night shift hospital rounds. She bought her first two homes by herself before remarrying. After her death, I remember reading or hearing some story of how she was arrested during the civil rights era and some kind of protest. If you see old pictures of

[00:06:26] my mom from the 60s, she was a dark skinned beautiful queen with a big smile and a bigger afro. And during the years when she was a single mom, she made sure that my brother and I stayed black. She enrolled us in this private school called Omowale Ujama. It was an African-American school in the foothills of Altadena, California. And it was expressly designed to teach us kids about African

[00:06:53] culture. The word Omowale is from Nigeria and it's Huruba for the lost child has returned home. And Ujamaa is the fourth of the seven principles of Kwanzaa and means cooperative economics. Thinking back on it now, my experience at that school was so black. Like every morning we'd greet the Mualimu, which is Swahili for teacher, with an African dance. Black food, black teachers, black discipline, and don't let Principal Walimu Hudari catch you mouthing off to one of the teachers.

[00:07:23] You got your ass beat like quick. And they didn't use belts at this school. No, no. They used fucking thick-ass rulers. And you get seven swats in your ass. One for each of the seven principles of Kwanzaa is my guess. Even the grade levels were black. Instead of numbers, each grade was named after an African tribe. I was in the Ashanti grade, aka fourth grade. My little brother was a Zulu.

[00:07:47] The highest grade in the class, seventh grade, was called Watusi. It's funny how young minds think, but I just assumed all schools did this. Imagine my surprise when I left Omowale and found out in my next school that the fifth grade was just, well, the fifth grade and not Yoruba. And they taught us so many words in Swahili. For the longest time, I thought the word semester was a Swahili word because

[00:08:14] Omowale was the first place I had ever heard it. I remember learning about Nigerian and Egyptian gods and thinking that they must be lieutenants or something like that to the one main god. I had no concept of monotheism or polytheism at the time. If you were an adult and you taught me about some god, I believed it. And you know that by this time, being the son of a Baptist mother who had strict Southern Baptist parents in North Carolina, that I was a card-carrying Christian,

[00:08:41] despite my young age. Now, if you sense a tinge of cynicism in my voice, it's not by accident. But we'll have plenty of episodes to get into how faith and Christianity play into all of this. I could say that my current conflict with American Christianity and racial identity actually was foreshadowed all the way back during my days at Omowale. Naturally, the school celebrated Kwanzaa instead of Christmas. But at home, my mom, brother,

[00:09:08] and I celebrated Christmas. Now, I don't know if it was expressly forbidden or something at Omowale for parents to celebrate Christmas, but I distinctly remember us having to hide the fact that we did. As an adult, my guess is that there was only so much African culture a Southern Baptist mama was

[00:09:25] going to take. I share this story with you fine people because I find it important to set the stage of my life, to explore the effect that media and social surroundings have on the development of young people of color. How did someone with such a black mother and such a black childhood end up

[00:09:52] with such a white adulthood? As we start the journey of making this podcast, I got JD and Yolanda on the phone to talk about how we all met in our hopes for the show. Our friendship goes all the way back to 1995 when JD and I worked at the same company and he recruited his friends from USC film school to help me shoot a short film. The entire cast and crew were black, but as we're prone to do, we got sidetracked

[00:10:17] by some other topic. This particular distraction was JD sharing his suspicions around the Facebook outage that happened in early October of this year and my disagreement of his theory. What was the point you're making? I apologize for interrupting. The point I'm making is that it seems mighty suspicious that there are these three entities that happen to be run Brella entity or corporation above them.

[00:10:41] And so for them just to go out and not, not Google or other places, it just seems, well, there's something wrong with their infrastructure. To me, it's, it seems just as plausible as someone could have hacked. And I think there'd probably be a lot of reasons for them not to fess up to that if it were the case. I guess nothing. Can we talk about why we got on the phone? Yeah. But let me just say, yeah, why did we get up on this phone? The only thing I would say to that

[00:11:06] is I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but I disagree with the reasons behind it. Like the fact, okay, that's all like, just because it didn't happen to Google and some other place. So JD, you're right. I just want to tell you, JD, you're right. And I agree with you, but you're wrong at the same time. Okay, let's move on. I think I'm having flashbacks to that tape they made back when I was seven. Anyway, back to the conversation. That's not exactly what I was saying.

[00:11:33] I agree with everything you said, but you suck and your premium is wrong. Let's move on. That's not my back, brother. That's not exactly what I was saying. This is the beginning of a wonderful relationship. Not exactly what I was saying, but you know, if you want to take it that way. But close, pretty close, pretty close to Mark. Yeah. Do you remember like our first, not the way we first met, but like how we first interacted? Like the thing, the project we worked on, the very first project we ever worked on together.

[00:12:05] Just Friends? Yeah. My short film, Just Friends. Yeah. And what I found interesting about that experience was, well, for me, it was, excluding like family gatherings, it was the first time that I had ever hung out and done something with a bunch of black folk since like elementary school. So, because the whole cast and crew, except for Mark, the whole cast and crew is black.

[00:12:35] Right. And, um, so I thought that was interesting. But one thing I found interesting, I think I write about this in the book. Yeah, you do. I was, I was going to say, I think I know where this is going because there's a chapter in the book. Yeah. Yeah. How everyone kept bagging and capping on each other. And I remember I wasn't, I was the butt of a number of jokes because of my cross colors attire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although, what year was that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:13:03] I don't think. Here comes the denial, the argumentation. I love it. I love it. I don't. So you're a hundred percent wrong, but you're right at the same time. I don't think cross colors was totally out of fashion in 95. It's kind of like. Which is the year we were shooting. Yeah. You were making it seem like I was. Oh yeah. Because you. Ron came up rocking cross colors hard. He has some cross color shorts, the cross color socks, the cross color t-shirt. Like, it wasn't a t-shirt.

[00:13:32] It was like five years old. It was a cross color spike Lee jersey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was my filmmaking shirt. Yeah. From 87. Got it. Got it. That's cool. No, it was 87. Yeah, it was 87. I'm just saying, I don't think cross colors was completely. It wasn't. You know, because it's like when you drop a stone in the pool. And there's ripples that go out. Such a tangent. So there's ripples for things. Yes. All right. What are we talking about? Here's the point. Here's the point. Because technically, cross colors isn't totally out now if you want to get technical about it wrong.

[00:14:03] All right. I'm sure you still got some cross colors in your closet right now. Now we're going off. Here's the point. Technically. So there was all of this capping and backing going on, playing the dozens or whatever you want to call it. And I think it's fair to say that is a, an aspect of, you know, African-American culture. I wouldn't necessarily say it's unique, but it's something that is indicative

[00:14:31] of when black folk get together. And it's almost like one of the things I write about is how I, ironically, I felt loved by the group because I was the butt of jokes. And I would have been worried if I wasn't teased. And there seems to be this aspect of like black people where we just love cutting up on one another. And that's sort of, I was thinking about it when I was thinking

[00:14:58] about like this whole district, um, topic and how, how prevalent, how prevalent that is in the community. Like it's like, I was doing my research on the episode and like I found this YouTube channel, which I talked about, they had like the top 50 districts and there's probably even more than 50. And so you just have this, it's almost like ingrained. I don't know if it's like, it's

[00:15:23] ingrained within African-American culture, this, you know, playing the dozens, capping on each other, backing on each other in a way where it's all love. Well, it's okay. Obviously in the case of some of these rappers, it's not really love, but yeah, like, I mean, I think it's a, it might be adjacent, it might be in the neighborhood. Yes. But it's not because there's also the crab and barrel phenomenon with black culture as well. And I think that's crabs in a barrel.

[00:15:54] Crabs in a barrel. What's that? Yeah. Are you familiar with you? Oh my God. What's that? Crabs in a barrel. If this turns into an online conversation again, Ron, we about to revoke your black card. This black card has not been Yeah. We haven't even issued it yet. Yeah. We have not issued it yet. We're still, jury's still out on whether we should give you. Please tell me you know that reference. Are you kidding me? Please tell me you're joking. Please tell me this is for a conversation. Say, oh my God, this nigga does not, has never heard of crabs in a barrel.

[00:16:23] Have you not heard of crabs in a barrel? Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. This onion never stops getting peeled back. Are you crazy? Tell me you're bullshitting right now. Good Lord, Jesus. Is it right? We need to start from the beginning. Oh my God. Oh my God. We need to take you back to the world. I need to call, I need to call to the ancestors to give me help and strength. I know. It just, some spiritual guidance right now, because this brother

[00:16:54] Jesus in heaven. Is it like, is it like shooting fish in a barrel? Wait, this is no. Come on. That would be shooting fish in a barrel. First of all, get your metaphors correct, but oh my God. No. Oh my God. Jesus. Oh, this is, oh. Can I back out of this podcast deal? I'm like, legitimately embarrassed to be on this show right now. You have to be kidding. Are you just around for content? No, he's not.

[00:17:24] He's not. He doesn't know crabs in a barrel. Dude. Okay. So Ron, here's the thing. Hold on. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I'm sweating too, nigga. I'm sweating. If you put a bunch of crabs in a barrel. They fight each other. They try and climb out. No. They're trying to get out. Okay. And when it gets up high, the ones from below will reach up and pull them down. Yes. So they never get out of the barrel. It's self-destructive. All right. I understand that metaphor.

[00:17:53] So the colloquialism is crabs in a barrel where people won't, people will pull other people down even though they might be saving themselves. Right. Like it's, it's like they're fighting themselves, but it's called crabs in a barrel. Okay. So what does that have to do with whether or not I have a black card? The fact that you've never heard that expression, use of black culture is similar to what does online mean? Yes.

[00:18:23] So are you saying- I'm looking online and I don't see anything online about online. Are you saying specifically that crabs in a barrel has grown out of the black American diaspora? Ron, it's usually- Yes. Don't ask, brother. Just don't ask. Just trust us. I'm trusting you. I think, I think it can apply to other races and cultures, but it's extremely common to be referred to in the black culture because it happens so often. It's like a brother will get up-

[00:18:52] Even white people use it, Ron. Even white people use it to talk about black people. Yes. Jesus Christ. Yeah. You're behind. Instead of trying to pledge a black fraternity, you need to go back to college and just pledge African American studies class. HBCU. Go to HBCU and pledge an African American studies class. Is that where you first learned about crabs in a barrel? No. No. No. I knew about that shit from elementary school.

[00:19:21] I heard my white mother talking about it. Okay. And my black kinfolk around me. So, I mean- So, back to the topic. Back to the topic at hand, as Snoop would say. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, let me just take this time to interject. One of the topics that frequently rears its ugly head in my head-to-head debate slash discussions with my good friend here is the apparent level of egregiousness that any

[00:19:49] ignorance I have of a particular aspect of quote unquote black culture. And I use my aforementioned lack of knowledge about the term online as a barometer. Now, if you heard the last episode, you'll recall that I didn't know what that term meant. Yeah! When you get on- as soon as you get online, they start- just full out punch you in the chest as hard as they can. You get online- What does that mean? Huh? When you get online, like computer online? Oh my god.

[00:20:22] Oh my god. Oh my god. Woo! Ashley, what's a bachelor's degree? What is- What does that mean? So, what does this word for shizzle mean? What is that?

[00:20:51] Now, I fully and wholly get that being a black man in America and not knowing what the term online means is pretty fucking embarrassing. It's bad. I get it. I can accept that. But sometimes I feel like JD puts all this shit on the same level, you know? Like, I don't think not being familiar with the term crabs in a barrel is really as bad as all that they're making it out to be. Email me and let me know what you think. Email's at the end of the episode.

[00:21:15] So, as I want to do, I wanted to get some kind of proof that I'm either right or not as wrong as I'm made to be. Again, maybe something I need to deal with and process with a therapist. Anyway, so to that end, I invited on the show a fellow black man who has a very similar experience to mine. My friend and fellow podcaster, Frederick Van Johnson. Frederick is a marketing expert in the tech world and a visual artist. He's a photographer. He hosts the popular photography podcast This Week in Photo.

[00:21:45] And for much of his adult life, he's been one of the few or only brothers in the workplace as well. I had JD join my conversation with Frederick and we got into the aforementioned crabs in a barrel controversy. And it starts with me introducing JD and setting the context for the podcast as a way for me to explore these themes of black culture and reconnecting with it. The podcast show is just about exploring a lot of the same type of themes. JD and Yolanda are my co-hosts and collaborators on it.

[00:22:14] Because they've, you know, as I described on the show and in the book, they're sort of like the Dre and the rainbow to my junior or if you're a fan of blackish. No, no, it would be not junior, but what's a rainbow? No, Rainbow's brother. I haven't seen too many episodes with her brother yet. He's my man from Hamilton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's very hippy dippy, you know, he's from the Bay Area.

[00:22:41] He's basically rainbow, but didn't marry a... But junior... But junior's just... But junior's clueless. He's kind of dingy, which I will give you that. I will give you fit that dingy role, but I'm just saying that. But he's awesome. But he's not washed out. He's not washed out. In the early seasons, a lot of the... He's just not hood. He's not hood, but he's not washed out. No, because there was that one... He's around his granddad. He's around his grandma. I understand that. You see him around black functions and whatnot. I understand that. He's not washed out.

[00:23:09] But there's episodes like the episode where he wanted to play... There was that sport, that sport with the stick. Lacrosse? Lacrosse, where he wanted to join the lacrosse team in Drake. Okay, all right. I mean, he's like, hey, win in Rome, you know? He's like... And then there was that episode where they go to the white church, the white hipster church, and then he gets up and he's singing with them on stage. I didn't see that one.

[00:23:36] And they're singing, how sweet it is to be loved by you. I do remember that one. Oh, wow. Okay. So anyway, J.D. and Yolanda are sort of like the Fresh Prince to Mike Carlton. That's another metaphor that I use. Got it. Got it. And so, you know, every now and then we have these conversations where I say something and they're kind of surprised that I either don't understand some aspect of black culture... Right. Like as of yesterday, we had one of those. All right. All right. You want to bring it up? Bring it up.

[00:24:05] That's why I brought it up. Bring it up. I need to do this. Wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Before you say it, I will put $10 on it right now that he won to stand and I've heard this phrase. Okay. Okay. Do I put $100 on it? Should I put $100 on it, Yolanda? No. Here's the thing. I'll put $100 on it. Wow. Uh-oh. That's pressure. No, no, no. It's not. No. Trust me, bro. Trust me. Trust me. It's no pressure at all. But here. Okay. But JD. You're like, what? Here's the thing. $10, Ron. $10 on it right now. No. I want to make it a friendly bet. That's one Bitcoin.

[00:24:35] One Bitcoin, Ron. I don't want to shame you like that. We're going to make it a friendly bet just so we can keep the conversation moving. Just a friendly bet. But here's the thing. Oh, now we got all kinds of explanations going on. Uh-oh. Stipulations happening. Benchmarks and shit. No. Just ask the question, Ron. Don't ask what the hard price. If it did not wear available by law. I will ask the question. But there's one follow-up question that's really important. Okay. And that is. Which is?

[00:25:03] The level of connectivity between the term and question. You're an already lost. And its connection to the black community. Because I just think. All right. Anyway. You already, man. You are really struggling. All right. Frederick. Frederick. Frederick. Frederick. What does the term crabs in a barrel mean to you? Wait, wait, wait. No, no. Frederick. Yes. Have you ever heard that term? Have you ever heard that term? I've used that term in time before. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ron had never heard that term.

[00:25:33] We said crabs in a barrel. We said, what are you talking about? What? I was like, nigga. Wow. Wow. So I'm notifying the term. All right. He said, you don't use the phrase, yo. I should have bet $100. I should have bet $1,000. I want Bitcoin. I want to bet some Bitcoin. All right. See? I told you. One Bitcoin. Yeah. Here's the second. Here's this follow-up question. And I think this is more apropos. This will try. This is Ron trying to fix it and curb the conversation now. No. No. No. Curve it. Curve it back around. No. No.

[00:26:03] No. No. No. No. No. No. Curve it back. Listen. Listen. This is the follow-up question. I like how it breaks down, too. I like how it breaks down. He's like, listen. Listen. This is the follow-up question. This is more apropos to the topic of this podcast. Not whether or not I've heard the term. Okay? Here's the issue.

[00:26:29] The issue is the level of black egregiousness for not knowing the term. JD is putting it on the level. All right. So I didn't know what the term online meant, which is. Do you know what that means? And when it comes to black fraternities, Frederick, do you know what online means? You just gave it away now. No, I didn't. We were talking about black fraternities and you don't know what it was. We had a whole conversation about it. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:26:59] Do you know what it means? We had an hour-long conversation about black fraternities. And then we said online, like, what does that mean? See? Ron, I'm on your side because I don't know. Yes! Uh-oh. You both were catching a side eye. I was at UCSB, man. You both were catching a side eye. Which actually is the... Hold on. Which actually... Wait. Where did you go to school first? UC Santa Barbara. UC Santa Barbara. Oh, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. I totally get it. I totally get it. They might not even have a black frat up there in Santa Barbara. Which actually is when I was there.

[00:27:29] But wait. Time out. Time out. Wait. If you go to a school where there's no black frat, then that's understandable. Ron went to Berkeley. How's fraternity's there? They got back from time. Oh, okay. Now who's backtracking? No, no, no. I'm just saying... Now who's backtracking? If you ask somebody, hey, have you ever seen an airplane and never been to an airport before? That's understandable. But if you stand in an airport and you don't know what an airplane is, you get excited. Eventually, Frederick shared his story and the similarities to mine are uncanny.

[00:27:56] I had a feeling that you and I probably had similar situations. It was identical. Yeah. In terms of being black... Similar though. Being similar. Similar though. What qualifies that, Frederick? Wait, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Let me qualify it. I'll give you the 30,000 foot view of my timeline, right? So born in Flint, Michigan. You're right.

[00:28:23] And then moved to Chicago, west side of Chicago. That's where a lot of my family is on the west side of Chicago. Left the west side of Chicago, an all black school. And went to, in my junior year, and then went to an all white school in the suburbs for reasons. Right? So now I'm out there. And then when I, when, when I, you know, leave home, I go in the military and go to school at the same time at UCSB.

[00:28:54] So during, so during, I'm military. I'm active duty military while I'm going to school. Oh, nice. Okay. So I was Air Force. Yeah. At Vandenberg Air Force Base, driving back and forth to school. Right? Right. So, and then you fast forward out of that into Silicon Valley, where I, you know, basically what brought me to where we are now, Mercury News, Yahoo, then Apple, then Adobe. And throughout all these corporate experiences in Mark, I'm in marketing, by the way, all these

[00:29:23] experiences, you can refer to me as the black guy in marketing. That's who I was. Yeah. Right. One, one grain of pepper and the salt shaker. Right. That was me in the meetings, right? Right. All the way through, all the way through. So, you know, I get it. So I'm kind of, you know, growing up black, right? Throughout, you know, I got two brothers and two sisters. So growing up through all that, and then having to pivot with the military kind of being the

[00:29:50] point of inflection of, oh, you need to understand these other cultures and they don't understand yours and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, being stationed to different places around the world that kind of put it all together. And now I talk to people all the time on the podcast from different backgrounds and you have to kind of be able to connect on a human level with everybody versus, you know, having it bounce off melanin or something. So. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's kind of where I am. So half and half. Right.

[00:30:20] I'm a weird kind of concoction of experiences with different cultures. Well, your experience is actually almost identical to mine because up until junior high, I had a very black experience. It's like I went to an all black school, an elementary school, Omawali Ujama. And then I grew up for the most part in the Altadena and Pasadena area, went to schools that were heavily integrated, played with black kids in the streets.

[00:30:47] And it was when I went to South Pasadena, which is predominantly white and Asian school where the, that's where the rift from, from black people happened for me. And then in college just became more so. Right. It just snowballed. It just. Pardon the pun. Pardon the pun. Right. In case you didn't hear that, JD's comment was that it snowballed. I'll give him that. That was, that was pretty funny. He's quick on his feet.

[00:31:15] But eventually I get to the real issue I wanted to have for Rick on the show. Knowing how much of his life paralleled mine, I just had to ask him this question. Was there a point where, so, so for me, I have this inflection point 2016 where. I felt like I wanted to be more active and really reconnecting. Was there anything similar like that for you?

[00:31:39] Or do you feel like you always were still connected enough where that kind of milestone wasn't necessary? Does that make sense? Yeah. It does make sense. Yeah. And no, I never had a, to date, right? Haven't had a point of inflection where I felt like I was so far right, I needed to swing back left or vice versa. Right. You know, you know, not to use the political kind of seasoning on that. But yeah, I never had that point.

[00:32:06] But I, what I will say is since, since, you know, around the time when I had to start being able to integrate with and speak with people that are white, black, Asian, Indian, whatever. Since that point. Since that point. And, you know, even throughout my corporate life, I've always kind of felt like a little bit in limbo. Right. So you're, you're never fully authentic. Period. Right.

[00:32:30] Because when you're around black people, you're not fully, you don't feel fully authentic because there's gaps in the, in the DNA structure, you know, the timeline DNA structure. And then when you're integrated with other people, you're hanging out at a cocktail party with a bunch of white people or Asian people or a mix, whatever. Right. You're still the, you're still the black guy. Right. So there's, you'd never have a, okay, I'm, you know, I'm at home. There's never, you're always kind of a stranger or a tolerated, a tolerated visitor. Right.

[00:33:01] I mean, me growing up mixed. I totally get that because it was like, I had the crazy thing is, is that I had both worlds. And I never left both worlds. Like I spend time in South central at my grandmother's house. And then the, the, the nice part of long beach with my white family. So my, my, my, my father's side, they live in South central, whatever. And then, uh, and then I'd be in long beach. I'd be with the white family. So, but I had a really progressive family that I was with.

[00:33:28] So it wasn't like I had the racist kind of crazy white family. So it was, it was, you know, being around white folks to kind of let me be the fly on the wall. Kind of like, you know, and kind of get that experience. Um, and what, what, what listened to you, Frederick, I was going to ask you, um, it, it sounded like you were describing like code switching, like you would be in certain places. You'd have like code switch. So it's like, okay, now I'm around my, my black brethren. I could kind of let my guard down a little bit.

[00:33:56] I know, I know what this is and how to operate in this world. But then when you got white folks, you knew how to operate in that world too, but you just had to kind of code switch it up because you were the black guy for marketing or whatever. Exactly. Exactly. And it's different in like, in the military there's it's code switching, but it's not binary. It's not black or white. It, there's a military version in there too, where you, you got to turn the dial over that way. And that can be a combination. It gets, it's, it gets complex, right? Right.

[00:34:24] Cause now I'm hanging out with my black air force friends versus my non black air force friends, or officers or whatever. So there's all these, all these different shades. Comes a Rubik's cube. Right. Right. It's simpler. It's simpler in the real world. Right. Right. It's different when you put it on YouTube. My, my hypothesis is that I suspect Ron didn't have to code switch though. I think that's the difference. I think that Ron, you were so inundated being in South pass and don't let

[00:34:51] me put words in your mouth. I'm just, this is what I gleaned from your experience is that it was more like a situation where, Oh, this is my world. This is, I, these are the people I operate with. Um, you know, I, you know, you weren't around black people frequently at that point. I'm going to be other permanently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were, that was just your thing where you didn't have much code switching going on.

[00:35:12] Totally. Ferg, I had a follow up question. Um, how do you, how did you, and how do you, if it's change or evolve deal with issues of either like microaggressions from like non-black friends who may say, or do stupid stuff that may be insensitive all the way up to people

[00:35:37] who may be outright say like racist comments or whatnot. Do you, have you came into that in the past? Yeah, of course. Definitely the microaggressions. I mean, um, that's on a daily basis. Yeah. How do you, it, but when it comes from people who you consider close to you, how have you handled that? Yeah, that's tough. And then there's no one answer, right? There's, it's not,

[00:36:03] it's not binary. It depends on your relationship with that person. Um, if they're doing it egregiously or innocently, right. Is there malice behind what they're doing or is it just stupidity or ignorance? Right. Right. So the, all that goes into the formula of how you respond to them. So if they're, if they're coming at me with some sort of, you know, tongue in cheek racist thing, you know, or, you know, then I'm going to deal with them. I'm going to, I'll be more confrontational from a

[00:36:32] condescending standpoint, you know, just letting them know how I feel. We ain't going to fight about this, but I'm going to let you know that you're being an idiot right now. And this is, yeah, that's not cool. If you're ignorant, I'll either let it go, you know, or just like, you know what, I'm not, I'm not the teacher of the world. I, and it's not my job to educate you and you don't affect me. So I'm just, yeah, it's exhausting. Like every now let me, okay, here's another person that needs education on why not to do, I don't want to waste, why do I need to waste my time in

[00:37:01] wealth building minutes, you know, schooling somebody else that had parents that didn't teach them. Right, right, right. So it's a case by case basis there, but then on the, I'll tell you, you know, 2016 and the black light of racism, like you were talking about with DJ and Kevin Swan and all those people, I call that the nice, the Trump powered black light of racism.

[00:37:28] There's a black light in an old hotel room. You've seen all kinds of stuff come up on a mattress. I've never heard that metaphor. I like it. Mattress of America. That's a great analogy. Jackson Pollock paintings on the wall. Outlines on the floor, body outlines and everything. Exactly. But it was revealing. My dad used to say, my dad has passed away this past year. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. Thank you. But he used to say the best kinds of racists are the ones that drive by in a pickup truck,

[00:37:58] you know, an N word out of the car. Right. Because they are telling you who they are and where they're standing. Exactly. It's the ones that smile in your face and then deny your loan or rental application while smiling in your face. Those are the ones that are nuclear that can torpedo your life. Right. So, yeah. So it depends, Ron. It depends on its situation. Right. It depends on who and it,

[00:38:21] it also depends on how I'm feeling at the time. Yeah. If I run into that situation after playing my Tupac playlist. Right. Right. Before watching, you know, Django Unchained or something. Right. Right. It's going to be a different level.

[00:38:52] It's the Ron ruler, the mind of the master, the Ron poet designed for disaster. One of the ironies in my life as it relates to all of this is the fact that on one hand, my time at South Pasadena High School was indeed where I take the path most liked. But it was also that place where one of my closest friends who was more like a cousin to me was the comedian Chris Spencer.

[00:39:16] I said $1,500 for $800,000 house. He's like, yes. I said, brother, give me two. Now let me explain something to y'all. If your note is 7,000 and you're paying 1,500, that 5,500 that you're not paying is going to the back of your loan. This is called negative amortization. I've been doing this since 04. My $800,000 loan, you know much, y'all? $1.7 billion.

[00:39:48] Chris is a comedian and an award-winning television writer and producer. He's co-creator of shows like Real Husbands of Hollywood, writer on numerous TV shows, including the Emmys, and hosts umpteen black comedy specials. Chris literally knows everyone in black Hollywood. His Instagram feed is chock full of photos of him playing golf with Anthony Anderson, Don Cheadle, Cedric the Entertainer, and the like. He recently wrote and directed his first feature, Back on the Strip, starring Faison Love, J.B. Smoove,

[00:40:17] Tiffany Haddish, Kevin Hart, Bill Bellamy, and a bunch of other comics. He and his wife Vanessa, who co-produced the film with him, co-host a funny relationship show on Kevin Hart's series XM channel called Date Night with Chris and Vanessa. He is just living the dream, man. An amazing life. And as luck would have it, his Jamaican mom was old friends with my Jamaican stepdad. And when Chris's family moved from Inglewood, California to South Pasadena,

[00:40:43] I can say it literally changed the direction of my life. Last year, I was able to connect with him and catch up. In fact, he was kind enough to give me, JD, and Yolanda some feedback on a pitch we have been developing for an animated version of my book. More on that later in the season. And in our first meeting with him, wouldn't you know it? Like life imitating art. In the process of him giving us feedback on a show about a black dude trying to reconnect with his blackness,

[00:41:12] the black dude upon which the show is based comically reveals his ongoing lack of knowledge about black vernacular. In this particular part of the pitch, Chris asked me about a picture of this white girl that I took to my junior prom. This is a girl that Chris remembers because he was a senior at the time. And he mentions that she looks cold blooded. And this is what transpired. They're more ignorant than racist. Right.

[00:41:39] And you're almost teaching them as you're learning too. Yes. No, that's a good point. So that could be... By the way, who was that at the prom? Sabra? That was Sabra, yeah. Fuck, she was cold. She was cold? Cold. Cold is fine, Ron. Good looking. Look online. I tried to say an old black word.

[00:42:09] Right, yeah. That's something our parents said. Cold, wait, cold usually means like you were cold blooded. Do you know what fine is? Cold blooded is fine. Yeah, you know what I mean? I remember cold blooded. Fine is pretty. I know what fine means. Thank you very much. Cold... Listen, you gotta remember in black culture, everything negative is positive. No, but when... Cold... Cold meant like when you were cold blooded like that, you were mean. They also meant like a cold blooded killer.

[00:42:39] Yes. Right. But that girl is cold... Right? That girl is cold blooded. Okay. We have different... You know, you can use bitch a couple different ways. You can use motherfucker different ways. Look at that motherfucker right there. Who is that motherfucker? You know what I mean? I'm making note of that. Yeah, that was Sabra. I remember... Listen, that's so fucking funny. I remember you... I remember I was walking home from school one time

[00:43:07] and I said something about stop being... I don't know if you remember this. I said stop being scary. Right? Oh, yes. I remember this. And I was like, what do you mean scary? I said, don't be scared of that motherfucker. And you're like, but that's not what scary means. Scary... I can hear the conversation. I already know. I already know the conversation. That's not how scary means like... And I had to explain to you like scary cat. Yeah, but scary is like haunted and...

[00:43:36] I was like, oh... I can hear the whole conversation. I can hear the whole conversation. I remember saying stall me out to you. Like when Ray was hitting me. Stall me out, stall me out. And you're like, what? And stall me out was like, leave me alone. And you were like, isn't that what a car does? But Ron, here's what's crazy.

[00:44:04] And I guess, you know, we haven't fucking connected in 30 years or whatever. I never thought of you as whitewashed. Yeah. That's interesting. I just... Yeah. But then again, I wasn't with you at college. And as I see you, you look like, you know, Eminem and a bowl of rice with all these fucking white people. So I don't know who that guy became. Can I just say, I love how a talented comic's mind works. Chris saying that I look like an Eminem and a bowl of rice when referring to a photo of me

[00:44:32] and a bunch of white and Asian people was pretty fucking hilarious. It boggles my mind how they come up with this stuff. It was also kind of cool hearing how he remembered me. As a matter of fact, it reminds me of the very first time I connected with him that summer and we were reminiscing about our time together at South Pasadena High School. What's the best way I can describe Chris in high school? I think it's like this. Imagine Eddie Murphy from the heyday of the 80s from films like Trading Places and Beverly Hills Cop.

[00:45:02] Hilarious, charming, quick on his feet, and tall with a killer smile. And let me just tell you, there ain't no stronger aphrodisiac in an all-white school than a tall, good-looking, charming, funny black man. And for some reason, I never quite understood how I got him to hang out with me. This nerdy, buster-brown, shoe-wearing kid who had an affinity for backpacks. After years of not seeing each other, I had an opportunity to grab some time in his busy life to catch up on old times.

[00:45:30] And I was finally able to ask him what I've wanted for so many years. I seriously count my meeting you as literally changing my life. Not to make your head big or anything. But when I think about the path my life was on up to that point, and the things I was doing, and hanging out with you, and just getting the vibe, your level of confidence, and the way you carry yourself and whatnot. And I write this in the book. I distinctly, I don't know if you remember this conversation,

[00:45:58] but remember we had open campus during lunch, and we could go to lunch? And I remember, you know, that's when I started hanging with you, and you were going out. And I remember you telling me, like, to put my backpack in the locker, because you're like, you're like, I don't know if you remember this, but you're like, man, you can't be taking that. Like, you got to put that shit away, man. Because I look so nerdy carrying this backpack. You're like, you were like- I think the first person I've seen to put both shoulders, put both arms up.

[00:46:30] I didn't even know what the other step was for. You found a use for it. That's right. I always had this theory, because for the life of me, I couldn't imagine, like, why you let me hang with you. You know what I mean? I always wondered, like, if your mom, I always call your mom on Dorothy, if she, like, told you to hang with that person. No, listen. You think you looked up to me? I looked up to you.

[00:46:58] First of all, I always envied- You're going to think this is weird. Yeah. How fucking ripped you were. Are you sure you're thinking about me? It wasn't Brendan. I mean- You didn't work out, but you were naturally fucking cut. Oh, yeah. From- I was on the wrestling team. Wrestling. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, I always envied that. You were always so fucking bright. Yeah. And you always thought I was fucking funny. So, all those things lead up to it.

[00:47:28] And you're like the little brother I didn't have. Wow. Wow, man. Yeah, yeah. That's true. I wasn't like you were a tag-along. It was like, yo, this motherfucker is almost the same age as me I get to hang up with every day. That was cool. Am I cussing too much for your white podcast? I know. There's a lot of cussing in this podcast. I know.

[00:48:01] Hearing Chris share what he really thought about me was such a trip. It was this profound revelation that causes me to see my high school years so differently. And it reminds me of a time when I posted a chapter from my book in the Facebook group of my high school class. It was a chapter about my time at South Pass. And one of my old classmates commented on how she had looked up to me and thought of me as one of the popular kids in school. Now, this totally blew my mind.

[00:48:31] I kind of felt like over the years during my time at South Pass when I first went there in the seventh grade that I successfully worked my way up the popularity totem pole from the bottom to about the middle, maybe between the middle and the top. I had become a junior and senior class president, so it wasn't like I was a nobody. But this woman who commented was one of the cheerleaders. Attractive, funny, also in leadership, still looks great to this day. She was, in my mind, the quintessential paragon of popularity.

[00:49:00] Then another woman commented how she thought of us. And again, this was a person who I believed was head and shoulders more popular than me. I recently had lunch with an old high school buddy, a tall, blonde water polo stud who was undoubtedly near the top, if not at the top of that popularity pole. But he wasn't just popular at our school. I knew for a fact that he went to the prom of every other high school in our league. And I thought for sure he was sleeping with every one of those girls.

[00:49:30] Nothing could have been further from the truth. He was actually Mormon at the time, and parents loved having their teen girls go with him because he was tall, handsome, on the water polo team, didn't drink, and didn't have sex. Boy, did I have him totally peg wrong. Now, this is what we do, isn't it? How many of us go through life with low self-esteem or negative images of ourselves

[00:49:59] that no one puts on our shoulders but us? We think more highly of others, lowly of ourselves, and we base so many personal and life decisions on that self-analysis. How different would so many of our lives be if we had the courage to share with others what we really know or feel in the moment when we feel them? Instead of them coming out 30 and 40 years later on a podcast, in a therapy session, or at a high school reunion.

[00:50:25] I can't help but wonder if a lot of the angst and trepidation I have around how black I am or am not is rooted in mischaracterized or outright mistaken thoughts. Earlier in the show, Frederick and I talked about being the only black person in our work environments.

[00:50:54] And speaking of which, a few days ago, I was checking out the website of a former employer of mine. They were in the news, and I was reading up on how the company was evolving. And I ain't gonna lie, it's kind of like when you check out the Facebook page of an ex to see if they're having as much fun as you. Because my life has actually been hugely blessed since leaving, and there's that tiny part of me that hopes that they're not, but they're still bawling. Side note, another lesson I've learned in life is that whenever you base your happiness

[00:51:22] on someone else's unhappiness, it's a recipe for disappointment and disillusionment. Anyway, back to the point. I noticed on their culture page, there was a group shot that had me in it. Now, given that my departure from this establishment was jinky as all hell, I was surprised to see me there. And as I clicked through all the other images on that site, I could see why that photo was used. It was literally the only photo on their entire culture page with a black person.

[00:51:57] I have to admit, it got me kind of riled up. Not just because of how my departure went down, but because I know this company sings from the mountaintops about its diversity. I felt used, and it pissed me off. I was seconds away from blasting them on social media about their hypocrisy. And prior to all the hard lessons I learned on how to control my ADHD, I just might have done that. But I exercised constraint, consulted some friends, J.D. and Yolanda included,

[00:52:26] instead sent a private email to their HR manager. They thankfully replaced the image quickly, this time with an image that prominently showed one of their Asian and Latin employees. Good for them. Now, I wouldn't say that I was triggered, but it was something akin to that. It took me back to all the group photos from my adulthood, where I was the only black face in a sea of white and Asian faces. Church photos, work photos, photos from my days dancing in a swing dance troupe. There was this one photo from my fraternity days at UC Berkeley,

[00:52:55] and in a group of about 50 or so people, there I am, smack dab in the middle. I was the president of the chapter at the time. And you guessed it, I was the only brother in the photo. So many years of being the only one who looks like me. It really spoke to my soul. You know what I mean? Now, don't get me wrong. I genuinely love the experiences I've had in my life.

[00:53:24] And I adore most of the people I've met along the way. Many of whom I would still consider friends. I don't think I would trade any of it. But if I had to do it over, I would have made a more concerted effort to connect with black folk. There are plenty of black people in all white working spaces who make it a priority to be surrounded by their people. I didn't do that. I think the sad truth was that it didn't feel like a loss. There was nothing tugging at my heart and soul saying, Ron, you need to be with more black people.

[00:53:54] I can't give you an explanation as to why that was the case. It just was what it was. But that was then. This is now. And now, I love the friendships and relationships I have with my non-black friends and family, but I also thoroughly enjoy the new connections I'm making with brothers and sisters. Over the past few years, through the writing of my soon-to-be-published book that bears the name of this podcast, and through the making of this podcast, I've learned what I briefly shared at the end of episode one,

[00:54:23] that it's never too late to be black. I don't know where this podcast will take us, but if you come along for the ride, I promise you won't be sorry. And in the immortal words of Jean-Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise D, engage. Always gotta be a black nerd at heart, y'all. Always gotta be a black nerd at heart. Kaplah!

[00:55:10] The Dungeons 'n' Durags podcast is a production of Blade Runner Media and Bonnie & Clyde Productions, and is part of the Ebony Covering Black America Podcast Network. This episode was written, hosted, and produced by yours truly, Ron Dawson. Special thanks to my black VFFs and podcast peeps, JD and Yolanda Cochran. No relation to Johnny.

[00:55:40] Music used in this show was licensed from Artlist, as well as Creative Commons songs from freemusicarchive.org. If you like the show, do all the podcast-y things. You know, rate, review, share with your friends and family. If you feel inclined to do so, tell us a story about a time when you didn't feel black enough, or Asian enough, or Latin enough, hell, tell us a story when you didn't even feel white enough. That would be a new one for me. I'd love to hear it. Shoot us an email at podcast at dungeonsanddurags.com.

[00:56:08] You can even send a voice memo if you like. Or leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts with your thoughts and stories, and we just may read that on the show. You can follow me on Twitter at Blade Ronner, that's Ronner with an O, and on the gram at Blurred Ronner. I write about race, religion, creative arts, and business on Medium at rondawson.medium.com. You can follow JD on Twitter at thatjdcochran, and Yolanda as rat in a whale, with all the words separated by underscores.

[00:56:37] I tried to get her to change her Twitter handle, y'all, but she just wouldn't budge. That's it for now. Stay safe out there, and remember, having white privilege is not bad. Denying it is. And in the absence of biblical certainty, choose love. Until next time.

[00:57:18] So, as you heard in the main episode, Frederick passed the crabs in the barrel test, but he also didn't know the term online. So I just had to follow up with JD about that. Alright, so here's the thing I wanted to have a follow-up on. And I think I understand why you didn't do this. But I felt like, for the purposes of the show, it would be worthwhile to bring up. Who, me?

[00:57:47] Who you what? You talking about me? Why didn't you do this one? Yeah, yeah. In the interview with Frederick, when he admitted that he did not know what online meant, he got off so easy. Here's the difference. Compared to the shit I get from you two. Exactly. I'll give you an argument. No, I thought about it. I had to catch myself because I said, well, first of all, there's several. Are you going to let me answer? Are you going to let me? Yeah.

[00:58:17] Because that's tantamount to a junior college, dude. That is not freaking birthday. Oh, shit.

[00:58:52] I'm just saying. I'm going to do a documentary on black frat. It's a whole different thing. If you are the person saying, hey, I'm going to join the military. What does soldier mean? It's like, come on. I disagree. I would have clowned his ass if I was on because. I did say. Wait, wait. You guys are. Wait, what I was saying. Don't center it. Because you weren't there. I did clown this bitch. What we clowned Ron on is being black and not having her. Yes. Not that he went to a school,

[00:59:21] whether it had a black frat there or not. Blah, blah, blah. It was just. Now you guys are both muted. JD, you're muted. I can't hear you. JD. Why do you keep turning me off? Well, because you guys were muting. You guys were echoing over. You keep. Mr. Correct. That's the new name. This nigga shut me off. Complain. I'm mute. Interesting.

[00:59:51] Wait, say that again. I'm saying you cut me off and then you complain that I'm mute. I wasn't complaining. JD, I wasn't complaining. What were you doing? You said, JD, you're on mute. That's not complaining. Okay. You're correct. JD, correct yourself because you're not in proper formation right now. I need you to go. But you muted me. I had to because you guys were echoing over each other. Okay. Well, then can't you. If you can mute me, can you unmute me? No, I can't. I can only. That's how it works. It says you can ask the person to unmute. Very telling. Oh, yeah.

[01:00:21] That's very telling. But all right. Okay. So you just muted, nigga. And be like, oh, JD, let me just correct you for a second. You're muted right now. Yeah, nigga, because you keep muted. Recognize the woman from Santa Clarita. Go ahead. Who wasn't at the meeting? Okay. Who wasn't at the meeting? I don't understand why we have this sound problem that we used to not have. Okay. All right. Go back to the topic. Go back to the topic. No, that's dumb. Go back to the topic. No, but you're on. I want to hear your point. You were saying you would have clowned him if you were there. I didn't get to hear what you were saying. No, let him finish this.

[01:00:50] Let him finish this. I don't want her to comment on it. Dear listener, if you're hearing this, what you're not hearing is the fact that JD's talking, but he's muted. Did you? Quit fucking muting me. You keep muting me and then complain. I don't have a thing to show that I get muted. You keep muting me and then start commenting that I'm muted. No. Stop muting me.

[01:01:19] You were already muted. No, I unmuted it and then here it goes muted again. Anyway. I just unmuted it like a minute ago and then now I'm muted again. Nigga, am I still muted? Quit muting me. Damn. I'm only muting you when you guys are talking over each other in the actual thing. But Ron, that mute, it goes away. So I don't know that I'm muted. It disappears. I understand it. Okay. That's why I verbally tell you, you can now unmute yourself. You know what you need to do, nigga?

[01:01:50] I need you to get a little sign that you can hold up next to your head and say unmute. Yeah. So when I hold this up, that means unmute. Yeah. Okay. And when I hold this up, that means quit muting me. He's holding up his metal finger. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. What I'm saying. Finish your point. Yeah. If I can, for the empty of time now. Please. When he said that, I looked at him and I said, oh, Frederick, I'm starting to, you catch a little side of me.

[01:02:16] And I said, there's some weird little comment, but I didn't go in him like I went on you because he is our guest. He's the, you are the host. And it wasn't even, he wasn't even presenting me a business plan or business model about going undercover for pledging a black frat. He just said he didn't know about it. And I still gave him a little grief, but I didn't want to dig all up into him because he's the guest. But I didn't let it just go over my head. I didn't let it just fly over my head and I didn't say anything. And I would, I would argue that Yolanda probably would have been tamed too. I'm not saying she wouldn't have said anything, but I'm not going to sit there and be the

[01:02:45] half hour comedy show slamming Frederick because he doesn't know what pledging is. But I did look, I did say a comment. Did I not? You did. Yeah. Okay. So now, so now that you misled Yolanda and said, I totally let it fly over and was oblivious to it. Now we can proceed. Let's hear what she was going to say. So she can unmute herself and you can mute. I would have said, dude, how do you not know that? And you should also know, like, this is an interesting topic because according to JD's

[01:03:14] mom, you need to re-edit the podcast because we were too hard on you. Ridiculous. That's my white mother. My white mother said that. So if we have an opportunity to re-edit, it should be redone because JD and I were outside of the box and have ruined it because we were too hard on you. She didn't appreciate it. Starting to take over his own podcast. Why are you calling him so much? You gotta unmute. Nigga, info.

[01:03:43] I'm holding up the sign. The scene is getting great.