What’s the sweet spot between challenge and comfort? This week we tackle Journey’s 1980 anthem “Any Way You Want It.” After knocking Mark down a notch because of his taste in early-oughts literary fiction, Nichole relates this song to the so-called arousal and flow theories of motivation. Mark explains the simple rhythmic trick that helps make this song have such a driving beat: pushing the downbeat. Come for the arena rock, stay for the Atari talk!
Other music heard in this episode: Thin Lizzy - “The Boys Are Back in Town”, Journey - “Who’s Crying Now”, Journey - “Ask the Lonely”, Journey - “Stone in Love”, Journey - “Don’t Stop Believin’”, Kendrick Lamar - “These Walls (feat. Bilal, Anna Wise, and Thundercat)”, Maroon 5 - “Sunday Morning”, Data Age - “Journey Escape Gameplay Music”
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00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you like to be a rouse, right?
00:03 --> 00:10 [SPEAKER_04]: And in psychology, I remind my students all the time, a rousal is not limited to sexual arousal.
00:10 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, arousal in terms of sexual arousal rarely comes up in terms of arousal theory, unless you're a very specific demographic, which would probably be like a called tunes.
00:23 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm trying to think about academic progress.
00:25 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_04]: So I have to like really remind them to like get out of their own heads for a minute and think of like more the global population that when people are aroused, they're not talking about sexual arousal.
00:37 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_04]: They're talking about just being stimulated.
00:38 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
00:39 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_04]: And some people need more to stimulate them than others, right?
00:44 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_04]: And some people make decisions based on the level of stimulation needed.
00:49 --> 00:56 [SPEAKER_03]: I used to use sometimes just to give an example, you stimulate your students to get them aroused.
00:56 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
00:57 --> 00:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
01:03 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I'm Nicole.
01:10 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Mark.
01:10 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And this is never mind the music.
01:12 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_04]: What are we going to talk about today, Mark?
01:15 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_03]: the Atari 2600.
01:17 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yes, very.
01:18 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever played in Atari 2600 or did you?
01:23 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I've probably played games that were on an Atari 2600, but on a different console is my guess.
01:31 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying you've played those games just yeah, what are you talking about like Frogger and stuff.
01:36 --> 01:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Frogger is a great example.
01:37 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Gallagher.
01:38 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Gallagher.
01:39 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably Gallagher.
01:39 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I played those games from from earlier.
01:41 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_03]: But like Atari 2600 was a very specific version of the Atari with like I think it was the most popular one with the joy stick.
01:47 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, with the book.
01:48 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Not it.
01:48 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:49 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I have a Sega Genesis, which was my first console, and I had... Wow, that's much later.
01:53 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_04]: It is.
01:55 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_04]: And I had the controller that had the joystick, and it was really cool.
02:00 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think for anything after the NES...
02:04 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_03]: The joystick is generally a negative.
02:07 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Unless you're playing a specific like a fighting game or something that's designed for an arcade, like what Genesis games take advantage of that you wouldn't just want the D-pad?
02:16 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was cool because it was like a whole tablet.
02:18 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_04]: It was like a joy stick and then it had all the buttons you could have had one of those two.
02:22 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And in most cases, playing Super Mario Bros. 3 with the NES advantage joystick was generally a liability for the Nintendo game.
02:30 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_04]: I still have it, we could test it out.
02:32 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, so your first console was Genesis, so I think most people are age would have been the Nintendo.
02:37 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, I had the Nintendo for sure.
02:39 --> 02:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, for sure, for sure.
02:40 --> 02:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so sorry.
02:40 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a Zelda and all that.
02:41 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yes, I do love Zelda.
02:43 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
02:43 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I just played again the other day.
02:45 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
02:46 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I do.
02:46 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I think you don't stop.
02:48 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I stop a little while, but I do get very hyper focused on it when I start a new game.
02:54 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think most people are generation generally joined with the Nintendo entertainment system, but my mom had a work friend who had an older kid who like moved out or something.
03:05 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when I was little, like maybe four, we were gifted unused Atari 2600 a whole bunch of games.
03:13 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_03]: There were classics like Adventure, which maybe was my favorite of them.
03:17 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Frogger, of course, Tapper.
03:19 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
03:19 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing better than like alcohol, serving when you're like five years old or whatever.
03:24 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_03]: The really terrible ET game that has gone on to be legendary.
03:28 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
03:28 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
03:29 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Backman.
03:30 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_03]: We might have even had an early version of Donkey Kong.
03:32 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_04]: That's cool.
03:33 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_03]: But one game that really stuck with me was so strange.
03:37 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_03]: It had this crazy cover.
03:38 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it was a very much trying to be like a sci-fi, almost like thing like a sci-fi novel cover with like an outrageous space scene that very was very artistically painted or something, showed a spaceship that kind of looked like a scarab beetle.
03:53 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_03]: like exploding out of a planet or a star or something like that it was a very evocative and of course the tarry 2600 the game play Did not look like that really at all right in the game.
04:03 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_03]: It was one of those like auto scrolling games where you're running up forever Kind of you can't turn around or anything and you're this guy running away from like monsters or aliens or something They were like giant yellow faces there were heart have you played this game?
04:16 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I just sound familiar.
04:17 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It does sound from I that
04:19 --> 04:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Think you can see like the cover art.
04:20 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_03]: There's like heart shaped creatures with no faces flashing lights.
04:24 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Strippy, man.
04:24 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Friendly robots that when you get them like it, it makes you able kind of like in Pac-Man.
04:28 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It makes you able to use that kind of kind of survive.
04:31 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It was really hard.
04:31 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know like is this a game that has an end or do you just go on forever?
04:36 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I never really got that far and I haven't played it.
04:38 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So this game, which is a suitable name.
04:41 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I think for a sci-fi game is called Journey Escape and it had a very catchy main title theme.
05:04 --> 05:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Are we doing copy right watch season three are we going to do it?
05:08 --> 05:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Why would we care about copyright was just seems like very either derivative or contributing to a very popular song that you may be familiar with by journey by journey.
05:21 --> 05:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't stop.
05:22 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_04]: What was the name of the game again?
05:23 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Journey is good.
05:25 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, can you appreciate how out of tune a few of those
05:40 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So out of tune, I had no idea until I was an adult.
05:45 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_03]: This was a video game version of the journey album escape.
05:50 --> 05:55 [SPEAKER_03]: That awesome scare beetle exploding out of the planet is the album cover.
05:55 --> 05:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Two, this is the album, the 1981 album.
05:58 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_03]: The one with don't stop believing open arms, problem they're most acclaimed and commercially successful album had a Atari game that came out in 1992.
06:09 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_03]: See the movie play the movie.
06:10 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_03]: No, here the album play them.
06:12 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's very cool.
06:14 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And I played it as some little kid.
06:15 --> 06:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I had heard those songs, maybe, but I didn't journey was played in the house later as just greatest.
06:20 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_03]: It's album.
06:21 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I never saw that album cover.
06:23 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I now know that the Scarab Beetle is sort of a symbol in a lot of their album artwork.
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_03]: In that case, it's a spaceship, sort of robotics, Scarab Beetle.
06:32 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I did not have or did not read the manual of this game.
06:37 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
06:38 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So, and by the time I could read, we got in Nintendo when I was a secondary.
06:42 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So, if I had read the manual, I would have read the following.
06:47 --> 06:48 [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the road with Journey.
06:49 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the world's hottest rock groups.
06:51 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_03]: A spectacular performance has just ended.
06:53 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Now it's up to you to guide each journey band member, past hordes of love crazed groupies, sneaky photographers, and shifty-eyed promoters to the safety of the Journey Escape vehicle in time to make the next concert.
07:04 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_03]: What?
07:05 --> 07:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Your mighty manager and loyal rodis are there to help, but the escape is up to you.
07:09 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_03]: So, oh, these aliens that I'm dodging, but this is crappy, crappy, before eight-bit graphics, right?
07:15 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_03]: The yellow faces, I think, were shift the eye promoters.
07:18 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_03]: The heart shapes, apparently were one crazed groupies.
07:21 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_03]: The flashing lights, I guess, were photographers, paparazzi, shut up to our piece of meat coverage from two weeks ago.
07:28 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_03]: The robots that I saw, apparently were rotis.
07:33 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_03]: All of this is fueled in my brain by this cover art, which I didn't know was an album or a like, looks like a spaceship game.
07:40 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And really, it's just, you're running to the next gig.
07:43 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I was really imagining when you were like doing this whole preamble, thinking of like a legends of the hidden temple by, or like a space and, like, yes, definitely like, and you even build just sci-fi.
07:54 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's not sci-fi.
07:55 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_04]: If anything, we not.
07:57 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_04]: No.
08:00 --> 08:01 [SPEAKER_03]: This is real.
08:02 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I am not making this up.
08:03 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Nor am I making up.
08:04 --> 08:07 [SPEAKER_03]: This is probably like, hey brother of mine.
08:07 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't ever.
08:08 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you've listened to a single episode ever, but I'm shouting you out here because I'm pretty sure I'm like 25 and my older brother walks up one day or I see him over the holidays and he's like, did you know that?
08:18 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Atari game we used to have is actually based on like, I was old until I figured it out because
08:23 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Why would you?
08:24 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It's that that system isn't as I didn't come back to the Atari 2600 once we had the Nintendo, right?
08:30 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_03]: It kind of was your fixture of my early childhood that just it's like how often was I watching Mr. Rogers or whatever once I was a teenager, right?
08:38 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I just put it out of my brain and then as an adult realize just the crazy things.
08:44 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to find it and I'm going to play.
08:45 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_04]: It's in play.
08:46 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_03]: There's definitely YouTube video of people playing it.
08:48 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, for sure.
08:49 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_04]: I can find it.
08:49 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure there's some way you can play it.
08:53 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_03]: okay so we're talking about journey everybody we are not going to talk about don't stop believing though it will come up a little bit later but this is one of their other pretty popular songs we are talking about anyway you want it
09:21 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, from 1980s, journey album departure.
09:26 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_03]: This feels like a totally ubiquitous band.
09:29 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that genre arena rock mean something to you?
09:32 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_04]: It means journey to me.
09:34 --> 09:36 [SPEAKER_04]: That's like, I'm like, maybe the Eagles?
09:36 --> 09:37 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, probably not.
09:38 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I think their later albums, you could maybe say that, could be true.
09:41 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like I just think of not like yacht rock, but I feel like it's kind of amazing.
09:47 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of amazing to me.
09:49 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's very radio friendly in a similar way.
09:51 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Similar time period, I would say arena rock has got to be catchy, accessible, but also loud and themic usually you have to have like choruses you could sing along with focused on melody in a lot of ways.
10:04 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of has to be a large of them life quality.
10:07 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say Queen would be an early arena rock band though some of
10:18 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_04]: think too hard about it.
10:20 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_04]: You know?
10:21 --> 10:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but some of it is very cognitive.
10:23 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_04]: It just makes you feel good.
10:24 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_04]: You can dance to it.
10:25 --> 10:30 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like easy to be around, but you're stimulated but not overstimulated by it.
10:30 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think like Yacht Rock, it might be kind of fancy, actually like it's heartfully constructed and like complicated and hard to perform.
10:38 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_03]: but very accessible and big.
10:42 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's an artist in a few episodes we're going to cover that could be a more modern take on arena rock.
10:48 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_03]: I think if we were you letting the label extend past this 70s 80s moment though, I think it's predominantly thought of in this era.
10:55 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_03]: I do think there's often a hard rock element, which is why something like
11:00 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Look, and I know Journey has a lot of balance, but they also, this song's rocket, you know, that's where I think maybe Eagles not quite, right?
11:07 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And Yacht Rock usually mellower.
11:10 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
11:10 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Usually smooth to use the term overused in the Yacht Rock web series from years ago.
11:17 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So this band, though, very popular, 19 top 40 singles.
11:21 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
11:22 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Six top 10 singles.
11:24 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_03]: But
11:25 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_03]: zero number ones.
11:27 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's really sad for them.
11:28 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Open arms hit number two.
11:29 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a great song.
11:31 --> 11:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a good song, but not as great as whatever was number one.
11:34 --> 11:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
11:35 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually don't know what it was.
11:36 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you believe don't stop believing was only number nine?
11:40 --> 11:42 [SPEAKER_03]: That's why that feels like to me that would have been a number one.
11:42 --> 11:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if it had a resurgence after Glee?
11:45 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_04]: there was like a moment and glee that they sang the song and like then the whole new generation got turned on to journey in.
11:52 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing like me to come back.
11:53 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that early 2000s?
11:54 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because I feel like even by then that song was the the song that people would think of when they thought it like karaoke or whatever.
12:03 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_03]: It's really intimate and it's accessible and still awesome.
12:07 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Even though it's a really brutal thing.
12:09 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_04]: For some of us.
12:10 --> 12:11 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
12:11 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this song number 23.
12:13 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, God.
12:14 --> 12:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So not as big.
12:17 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Speaking of early to the is this book early 2000s or late 2000s.
12:20 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember vividly.
12:22 --> 12:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you ever read the David Eggers?
12:25 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope I'm saying his name right novel.
12:28 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Heartbreaking work of staggering genius.
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_04]: No, man, I didn't read that.
12:31 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_03]: There is whole scene where you can see from this little brother.
12:34 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
12:35 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And it feels like very, like a very sort of early 2000s, late 90s, like almost hipster illusion to this earlier pops on.
12:43 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
12:43 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Like telegraphing, like your coolness by someone else's cheesy music.
12:50 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
12:50 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, it's,
12:51 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Not cheesy for us.
12:53 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_03]: It was cheesy back then, but now we can take ownership of it.
12:55 --> 12:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's how I read that, right?
12:57 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like a 20-something reading this point.
12:58 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that song is really cool.
13:00 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_04]: That makes sense to me.
13:01 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I owe it that book.
13:02 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, Mark.
13:03 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like that's a book that you carry around to show off to other people that you know how to read big books.
13:08 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_04]: feel like you care people carry that are in the coming reading this david ever I think that's what it would have been and then in 2000 for sure definitely like a status like oh this this big book I'm reading is it big I don't know but I feel like it has what I think that is I think that book is my first
13:25 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_03]: contemporary literary fiction I ever read.
13:28 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
13:28 --> 13:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm trying to think like in the 90s, maybe I read it.
13:31 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that was one of the first like, oh, this is a recent serious novel that wasn't like a, you know, sci-fi or fantasy novel.
13:38 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_04]: If you're like virtue, not virtue, signaling, that's too strong of a war, but something like that.
13:43 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Like reading the between the world and me on a on a subway train to show everybody how anti-racist you are.
13:48 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, like reading a Jack
13:53 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_04]: developmental road trip or something.
13:55 --> 13:57 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like to show the world that like you.
13:57 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you accusing a college student version of me as trying to signal my status as an actual?
14:05 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that's what I'm doing.
14:08 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you wasting, I mean, this is probably established.
14:11 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I would say everybody would think, yeah, I know.
14:13 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_04]: I just, I feel like that book is an example.
14:17 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_04]: is like that's the book that if you were like okay if you were gonna make like a model of a college student trying to establish themselves a world as being like a worldly academic that would be the book that they were carrying and like a satire of that person yeah and I read it well and I and I didn't right I can't like unread it and it was probably really great I heard it was like a staggering genius
14:43 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_03]: It had any way you wanted in it, which is why I'm mentioning it.
14:46 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_04]: That's cool.
14:47 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I should get over it and read it.
14:49 --> 14:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Just like we should get over ourselves and listen to Britney Spears.
14:51 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_04]: We should get over ourselves and read these books that we code as pretentious.
14:55 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I read his follow me novel and did not like it as much if that makes you feel better.
14:58 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you're not supposed to, right?
15:00 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's a sophomore album and you're supposed to really go.
15:01 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that was if that's the order of it, but I think it was more recent.
15:06 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember what that second or that other book is called.
15:09 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Anyways, let's take a couple of minutes to really try to remember.
15:12 --> 15:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's good for the podcast.
15:14 --> 15:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I think folks write in because I think I think what's important before we start talking about fucking journey.
15:22 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I think we should put on one scale.
15:23 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_03]: People reading the trendy thing that other 20 somethings are telling you, well, have you read this?
15:28 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It's on the bestseller list.
15:30 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Have you read the alchemist?
15:31 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I don't get, please don't get me started on that shit.
15:39 --> 15:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Making people 20 years later feel bad about it and we can say which is the worst social evil.
15:43 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I'm an asshole.
15:45 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I do.
15:46 --> 15:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Even in this whole diet, I feel like it's not painting me in it.
15:50 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, because I think there is, I think it is interesting.
15:52 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_03]: This is nothing to do with what we're doing this episode.
15:55 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_03]: there is performatively virtue signaling things like whether it's the music you like or the books you read or whatever or the tweets you retweet or whatever and then also performatively criticizing that and like that's also trendy to be like oh look at everybody with their trying to look all cool you know listening to a band they don't actually like just to look cool like well poseer trying to it's like the equivalent of wearing the t-shirt of the band
16:23 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh gosh, isn't it the equivalent of being that guy, it might be that guy.
16:28 --> 16:31 [SPEAKER_04]: his ways, but you were eating it because you wanted to read it.
16:31 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't think you were reading it for cloud.
16:33 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I think somebody, I think I know who it was said, hey, this is a good book.
16:38 --> 16:39 [SPEAKER_03]: You should read it.
16:39 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I bet.
16:40 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
16:41 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_03]: In the early internet days of the two odds, oh, whatever, I don't know that I knew it was trendy to read that book.
16:47 --> 16:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd never heard of it.
16:48 --> 16:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I just read it.
16:49 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Did I walk around on the bar in the area going to work or whatever?
16:55 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_03]: reading the book because the iPod had not been invented yet.
16:58 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was reading and so yes, could people out in public see that I was reading this literary fiction?
17:03 --> 17:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure, but did I know that that would be me telegraphing my coolness?
17:09 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_03]: No, because I would also read like the Wheel of Time or whatever.
17:11 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that's the difference.
17:12 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_03]: The part is the train in the Bay Area.
17:14 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Like you read it because you've wanted a book to read and here's a good book that someone recommended.
17:17 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Like you weren't at, you didn't read it performatively.
17:20 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_04]: You read it
17:23 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's the difference.
17:24 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't know, would it be possible to perform anively read in the same way in the pre-social media?
17:28 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_03]: What does that even mean, right?
17:30 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_03]: I did perform anively listen to music.
17:32 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I would like listen to music, hoping people would ask what am I listening to?
17:36 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_03]: So I could say it was this cool.
17:38 --> 17:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I did that, but like in a book, I didn't even think it occurred to me back then that there were certain books that were cooler than then,
17:45 --> 17:47 [SPEAKER_04]: It occurred to me and I'll say I did performatively read.
17:47 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's all David Eckers.
17:49 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Not David, it was definitely more like yes, Pollock Whillow and the Celestean prophecy and Jack Carawak and stuff.
17:56 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_04]: So people on the train would be like, oh man, she's reading the Dharma bombs.
17:59 --> 18:00 [SPEAKER_04]: That's not even on the road.
18:00 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
18:01 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Must really know what that sounds like.
18:02 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh wow, yeah, deep cut, right?
18:04 --> 18:05 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a really good book, actually.
18:05 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And God damn, Alchemist.
18:09 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about this.
18:10 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not.
18:10 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_04]: And just like, but as a 16, 17 year old,
18:15 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It does offer you the books like the alchemist and all of this other writings, too.
18:19 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Like this broad and global perspective of like the world can be more than just your instant based approach.
18:26 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I have grievances.
18:27 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_03]: It maybe it'll come up in a future episode.
18:29 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to recommend it to me by somebody, too.
18:32 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Do read that and this adult isn't going to do it for you.
18:34 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Holy crap.
18:35 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's go back on top.
18:36 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_04]: It was my fault.
18:36 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_04]: That was my fault.
18:38 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like Brittany.
18:40 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe I have ever listened to a entire journey album.
18:44 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I heard a lot of the greatest, like the greatest hits one that was released in the 90s, my parents had, so I heard that a lot.
18:51 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_03]: And I've heard a lot of these songs, obviously by now, same with you, seems like.
18:55 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
18:56 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_03]: This band is one of those revolving doors of members, I don't know if you knew that, like if you look at the Wikipedia page, there's like a, I think an entire page of just members.
19:06 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not just like something you can boil down with a simple chart.
19:10 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Steve Perry, vocalist on the song, I would say the iconic vocalist is actually the third vocalist in the band and he joined in the fourth album.
19:18 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is almost like
19:20 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, how does Fleetwood Mac like a decade before Stevie Nix joins that have multiple leads.
19:26 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's like that where they have like a whole previous career.
19:29 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So to speak, the original lead vocalist is Greg Roly, who is the keyboardist in the band at this point, but you may know him as the main lead singer for most of the most popular Santana songs.
19:42 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Mike.
19:42 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_03]: So like the late 60s, early 70s, black magic woman, the vocalist, Carlos Santana,
19:50 --> 19:56 [SPEAKER_03]: a guy who then ended up in this band, as originally the lead vocalist, very different vocal sound for sure.
19:56 --> 20:04 [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, now I'm connecting these dots in my, the threat of Santana, I think it's multiple former Santana.
20:04 --> 20:06 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what that means.
20:06 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what that means.
20:07 --> 20:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I need your mind's ear.
20:09 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you have like a mind's eye.
20:10 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
20:11 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like your visual spatial sketch path is, yes, that your mind's eye.
20:14 --> 20:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
20:15 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_04]: You're unlike autonomic loop or something, autophonic loop is your, your mind's ear.
20:21 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Are we going to talk about that in the future?
20:22 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
20:23 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
20:23 --> 20:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
20:45 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, you want it was written by the vocalist, Steve Perry, and also the guitarist Neil Schone, who is the only steady member.
20:53 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think he's still in the bad, though the bass player Ross Vallerie was really long term also.
20:59 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Shout out, also, to Neil, guitar player.
21:02 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_03]: For having basically no boundaries,
21:06 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_03]: it leads to nice musically if you listen he's got two guitar solos in the song and then when the outro chorus starts he's still guitar soloing
21:30 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_02]: He keeps going through the entire thing out.
21:32 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's awesome.
21:33 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But I can also imagine like the music director of their show, like the higher, it's this big arena thing, like waving them off.
21:39 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_03]: No, we're on the chorus, bro.
21:41 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Stop.
21:42 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
21:43 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So Steve Perry said, this song was influenced by the Irish band Finn Lizzy.
21:48 --> 21:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
21:49 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Finn Lizzy, right?
21:50 --> 21:54 [SPEAKER_03]: This of course is their most famous song from 1976.
21:54 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Boys are back in town.
21:56 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Love me some good harmonies.
22:12 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
22:12 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's another example of music that is challenging and intricate enough to keep me interested, but not too challenging and intricate that I get overwhelmed.
22:22 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
22:23 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_04]: It's in that little...
22:23 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It's cut.
22:24 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's kind of a reener rocket.
22:25 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a little more power pop than that, but it's showy, right?
22:28 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:28 --> 22:32 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's catchy and showy at the same time and kind of complicated.
22:33 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So...
22:34 --> 22:37 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know at all what you want to talk about with this episode, I'm going to talk about rhythm.
22:38 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
22:38 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of a simple, cool, rhythmic trick that we hear in some of their songs and also a lot of pop music in general, where we go with you with your, well, aside from performative book reading.
22:49 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
22:50 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I've been secretly priming you this whole time to talk about what I want to talk about.
22:54 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_04]: I want to talk about theories of motivation, but most specifically a rousal theory and flow state in this idea that some people are motivated to keep themselves in that in that sweet spot, to keep themselves in the pocket of being challenged, but not too challenged, like being challenged enough to stay interested, but not too challenged that they get frustrated and quit.
23:17 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_04]: So if you think of like a reener ox sitting in this like in the bottom of a you,
23:22 --> 23:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
23:22 --> 23:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And this little pocket of it's keeping people engaged and keeping people interested, but it's not too hadty that they lose interest and just keeping them right in that sweet spot.
23:32 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Your you is one side of you would be too complicated and one side of that you would be not complicated enough boring.
23:41 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
23:41 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
23:42 --> 23:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Wouldn't it be like a more of a upside down?
23:44 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_03]: You like, well, I guess
23:50 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_04]: It holds you because you're like trapped in this, the cup of the you, okay, you know, and you're like in the pocket, essentially.
23:58 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so we're talking about the complexity of music.
24:01 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:02 --> 24:04 [SPEAKER_04]: No, we're talking about like why people are voting.
24:04 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Any way you want it, how do you find motivation?
24:06 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what spark me was the title of this song.
24:09 --> 24:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
24:10 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Because you're.
24:10 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you agree that this song is just about sex?
24:13 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that there's a lot of sex.
24:14 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't care.
24:15 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of every listen to the lyrics.
24:16 --> 24:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And then when I looked at the lyrics, it's like that's like part of it.
24:19 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_03]: She loves to groove.
24:20 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_03]: She loves the loving things.
24:22 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, all night, oh, every night.
24:24 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
24:24 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm like, oh, yeah.
24:25 --> 24:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we have this, sorry.
24:27 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of want to let you do your thing first.
24:28 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_03]: No, this is the same thing.
24:29 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_03]: We have this.
24:30 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_03]: She says, oh, I think there's an orgasm in the middle of the song.
24:51 --> 24:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so be that as a me.
24:52 --> 24:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't like it.
24:54 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_04]: There we come.
24:55 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's.
24:57 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not keeping track, but we're in our second main episode and I went first last time.
25:04 --> 25:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to hear what you got say, because I still kind of not totally sure how this all fits.
25:07 --> 25:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we'll talk about rhythm for a few minutes.
25:10 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm also not entirely sure how it all fits, but I'm going to like give it a shot.
25:15 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_04]: So I was thinking about.
25:18 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_04]: all these different theories of motivation and why people do what they do, right?
25:23 --> 25:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm thinking of the song anyway you want it, right?
25:25 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_04]: That's the way you need it.
25:27 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_04]: And what motivates one person is going to be different.
25:30 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_04]: They want motivates another person, right?
25:31 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_04]: And we need to play into people's individual motivations to get them to do stuff, okay?
25:38 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So I started thinking about all the different theories of what motivates people, but I thought to go through all of them would be way too much for when episode, and you always say like, save it for another episode, like don't say them all at once.
25:51 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So like that's cool.
25:52 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_03]: It's good that it's what how I sound off.
25:54 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're just like with your book in your hand, like stop, stop doing too much, right?
25:59 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Keep it simple, right?
26:00 --> 26:02 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is what I'm trying to do.
26:02 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_04]: So I picked two,
26:05 --> 26:12 [SPEAKER_04]: One specifically speaks to the song with the noted arousal pieces, which is called arousal theory in terms of motivation.
26:14 --> 26:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you give any guesses of what you think arousal theory or how arousal plays into motivation?
26:22 --> 26:26 [SPEAKER_03]: You want to do a thing because of a dopamine hit you get or something.
26:26 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So kind of an excite, maybe not dopamine, but like some kind of a heightened engagement you get from it.
26:34 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you like to be a rouse, right?
26:37 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And in psychology, I remind my students all the time, a rouse is not limited to sexual arousal.
26:44 --> 26:46 [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, arousal in terms of sexual arousal,
26:47 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_04]: rarely comes up in terms of a rousal theory, unless you're a very specific demographic, which would probably be like a called tunes.
26:57 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm trying to think about academic progress.
26:59 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So I have to like really remind them to like get out of their own heads for a minute and think of like more the global population that when people are aroused, they're not talking about sexual arousal.
27:10 --> 27:12 [SPEAKER_04]: They're talking about just being stimulated.
27:12 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
27:13 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And some people need more to stimulate them than others, right?
27:17 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_04]: And some people make decisions based on the level of stimulation needed.
27:22 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Like,
27:23 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_03]: So you sometimes just give an example, you stimulate your students to get them aroused.
27:30 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
27:31 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, clip it, but that might turn your back it, actually not 10-year-old jewel, there's reasons, the example I use for my students is like, I say, like, okay, raise your hand if you ever went skydiving or want to go skydiving and usually have to class versus their hands, like enthusiastically, performatively, right?
27:55 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
27:55 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And then I tell them that there's no money that you could pay me ever there's no amount of money that would encourage me to skydive like you could wave a well I guess there is some amount of money.
28:07 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_04]: It's billions.
28:09 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
28:09 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like a lot of money.
28:10 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of money.
28:11 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Might as well be no amount of money.
28:12 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my as well.
28:13 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's a high amount.
28:14 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Because for me, I'm not that doesn't arouse me.
28:18 --> 28:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't motivate me.
28:19 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I get scared of that heightened heightened arousal state.
28:22 --> 28:29 [SPEAKER_04]: For me, I get more aroused intellectually than physically, like that's where I find more stimulation.
28:30 --> 28:41 [SPEAKER_04]: So for me, music usually leads me towards arousal when it is intricate, and I can dissect it, and I can note the performance aspects of it.
28:41 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's why for me, music like this, I find kind of arousing performatively because
28:48 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_04]: When you see them perform live, you know that they're really into it, you know that they're good musicians, like you have to be to pull off that guitar solo, but it's not so conceptual or so avant-garde that it loses me.
29:00 --> 29:05 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not too cognitive that I can kind of sit in that U-shaped pocket.
29:05 --> 29:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So I was thinking about that a lot when just in listening to the song and listening to Journey in
29:15 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_04]: that I'm challenged.
29:17 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting.
29:17 --> 29:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm engaged.
29:18 --> 29:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It never gets old.
29:19 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you could listen to this song a million times and still be into it.
29:23 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And always kind of find new pieces of it, I think not to sidetrack too much, but there's something about that mid.
29:34 --> 29:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say like mid 70s to mid 80s.
29:37 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_03]: where there is this unholy alliance between complexity and simplicity, that's really specific, where when we're talking Yacht Rock, when we're talking Arena Rock, when you're talking disco, disco for all people want to say, oh, the beats to repetitive, the music of disco is often very complicated, like jazzy chords and R&B vocals and things, string sections and horn sections and Latin percussion, there's a lot going on,
30:05 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_03]: That's in this sort of balance with a really poppy catchy melody and simple drum beat, right?
30:11 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And then Yacht Rock obviously we have the smooth vocals, but also jazziness.
30:15 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_03]: This is like extreme musicianship, it's really a mighty and loud, but also just catchy and accessible.
30:21 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Whereas if you go to other arrows, things might flip to a different balance.
30:27 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_03]: So like in the 90s, maybe simplicity kind of wins the day a little bit with alternative rock and just a sort of stripping down of that.
30:37 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's something about that being in the use shape that you've been describing.
30:42 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know this isn't the point of what you're saying.
30:44 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_04]: that is kind of intrinsic to the era in an interesting way and the fact that the song like there are no there's no like dip in tempo like it's fast and striving it kind of keeps pushing through and even in moments that there's aren't there's not lyrics
31:02 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_03]: instrumentally it's still driving and strong like you could almost imagine a punk version of this coming out with very different vocal style, no guitar solo's coming out in the same exact era by the Romans or something.
31:14 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, and it's just like you put your foot on the gas and you just like keep going.
31:17 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So it doesn't give you time to like to become bless a rouse like it just kind of gets pushing you.
31:25 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_04]: and it's never uncomfortable, but there's like a drive to the song into a lot of songs of this era that make me think of arousal theory and also a more modern interpretation, or I'm even going to say it in interpolation of arousal theory would be flow state and flow theory, which comes up later in like psychological history.
31:48 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_04]: So flow theory, I'm not even going to try to say this guy's last name because it's like
31:56 --> 31:57 [SPEAKER_03]: We use them much better with the sweetest names.
31:58 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I know.
31:58 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_04]: As we learned.
31:59 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Chicks and Mikhail is the first name from Mikhail.
32:03 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Mikhail.
32:03 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Mikhail.
32:05 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's so sad that I can't say his last name, because it's not culturally informed.
32:09 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_04]: And he's a really, he's very, he's the guy, he's the flow state guy.
32:13 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Mikhail, I cheek sent Mikhail.
32:15 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_03]: You.
32:16 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_03]: It's Hungarian.
32:17 --> 32:23 [SPEAKER_04]: He talks about arousal and flow theory in a way that really speaks to like artistry for me.
32:25 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_04]: when you're creating art, like you want to get into this flow state.
32:31 --> 32:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Are you from really with the term flow state you must right what what are some flow state is when you you get so in the zone you get so in that pocket of that you that you kind of transcends track of Yeah, you maybe aren't thinking as much as just doing you right like maybe you before you're all due playing this Atari game for hours put you in flow state like you hear students play.
32:54 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I played Call of Duty for like 10 hours the other day.
32:56 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like
32:57 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_03]: definitely flow state can happen with video games, flow state can happen with sports and activities.
33:02 --> 33:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I have definitely, I don't know that I experienced it a lot.
33:05 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_03]: In music making, but there definitely is, I've been working on a song for hours and you almost, the time flies kind of, when you have a good idea.
33:14 --> 33:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And you just like get kind of like hyper focused in it.
33:17 --> 33:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's I get in flow state like when I'm writing mostly when I'm like on some such a nerd for teaching but when I'm like writing assignments or writing syllabi or writing curriculum or doing like course planning course scheduling such a nerd no one else I've ever met like get so into that but I do lose track of time and I get like hyper focused and vigilant because it's challenging and I can solve the problem.
33:44 --> 33:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's an other theory of motivation.
33:46 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's like slow theory that you're motivated towards things that get you into this flow state.
33:51 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_04]: So a lot of learners that have like ADHD, they're naturally drawn to things that put them in flow state.
33:57 --> 33:59 [SPEAKER_04]: They're naturally drawn to the things that they're interested in.
33:59 --> 34:05 [SPEAKER_04]: You just need to figure out a way to get the work that they have to do to become the work they want to do, because there's a difference.
34:05 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
34:06 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_04]: For a lot of people, right?
34:07 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_04]: So what I do with my students is we analyze what naturally gets them into flow state and then try to figure out how we can,
34:15 --> 34:30 [SPEAKER_04]: manipulate their environment so when they do homework when they write papers they can kind of mimic that sense of flow state that they feel when they play video games or when they write music or when they create art like how can you change your environment to trick your brain to lock into that flow state.
34:31 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_04]: which is a teachable thing.
34:33 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_03]: So what is flow state have to do with the song?
34:35 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Or is it just like, oh, and here's another one is this point of comparison?
34:38 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_04]: As another one has a point of comparison to this theory of motivation that puts you in this pocket like this song to me, like challenges me, but doesn't overwhelm me.
34:49 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So, sorry to back up too much, but the theory specifically of motivation, it's that you, it's the, it's challenge versus not challenge and motivation.
34:58 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_03]: arousal will happen when you're in the middle of those.
35:00 --> 35:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that what the theory of motivation?
35:03 --> 35:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, yes, the arousal theory of motivation.
35:06 --> 35:08 [SPEAKER_04]: The theories are we don't know why people are motivated.
35:08 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Some people are motivated by incentive.
35:11 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a whole theory of incentive theory motivation that most of our students are following an incentive theory to complete their coursework.
35:17 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Most of my students, your students are probably falling more into flow or out of class.
35:23 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it depends on the class.
35:23 --> 35:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Very much depends on the class.
35:25 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_03]: So is this the kind of thing where people are like, this theory is right or it's just like, oh, no, these all of these intersect.
35:32 --> 35:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I know, I'm not even saying what do you think.
35:33 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying like, the person,
35:36 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Mikael when he invented the flow theory was he saying this is the one that trumps everybody or he's saying oh this is another way of looking at something that might represent 10% of people's motive.
35:46 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, all psychological theories are ways to rationalize human behavior.
35:50 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like a menu of options.
35:52 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Like we haven't proven any of these theories.
35:54 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_04]: We have research that supports flow theory as effective.
35:57 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Like flow statin is an effective way to make output for sure.
36:06 --> 36:09 [SPEAKER_04]: But not everyone is motivated that way.
36:09 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is just one theory on a menu of options.
36:13 --> 36:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And those menus are compatible with each other.
36:17 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
36:18 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It's depending on your body.
36:19 --> 36:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like someone's in flow and the person who invented the rousal theory is going, no, no, no, they're not in flow.
36:24 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_03]: They're just in the extreme sense of arousal.
36:26 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_04]: No, well, they're very similar.
36:28 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Like those two theories are very well connected, but there are some that are very biological, like the drive reduction theory is saying, we're just motivated to reduce drive.
36:39 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And there are moments in your life that you fall into a drive reduction theory of motivation.
36:43 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Like your hungry, you're gonna be motivated to go speak to yourself, something to eat.
36:48 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_04]: You're not gonna, you're probably not getting into flow state while you're cooking, but some people are for sure.
36:55 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
36:56 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
36:56 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
36:57 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's it's really an interesting way to like codify human behavior in terms of like what drives us now in this song, it's very, really to a rousal theory and and it is like thinking more of sexual arousal.
37:11 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
37:12 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_04]: And like physiological or psychological arousal.
37:15 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:16 --> 37:23 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's what I got, I don't know, well, I'm going to make connections to what you're going to teach me and put a little bow on at the end.
37:23 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure.
37:24 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
37:24 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, what I've got is pretty simple talking about like the U or challenge.
37:29 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_03]: This is actually less challenging than some of the, but, but it's one of those things that I kind of can't believe it took me this long to start talking about it.
37:54 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Knowing that I want to talk about rhythm, I'm gonna play the chorus, and I want you to predict what do you think I'm talking, and I know maybe you have a couple words.
38:04 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't even remember what I told you, we were gonna talk about something about rhythm, right?
38:06 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, something about rhythm.
38:09 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_03]: So just listen to the rhythm of the chorus, and tell me what jumps out to you.
38:12 --> 38:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Putting aside things like just assume, yes, it's a rock-back beat.
38:16 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_03]: It's got fast guitars, but like what's interesting a unique relative to some of the other music we listen to?
38:37 --> 38:54 [SPEAKER_04]: it's repetitive okay absolutely right it is I'd call it driving yep it's is there an accent that jumps out no it's really like monotone almost but not not melodically yeah that's it I'm having a chat
39:01 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_04]: It's funny because I'm having a hard time separating melody and rhythm when I'm in my analysis and I'm trying really doing some mental gymnastics to parse out those two things because I feel like for me in the song it is they're connected somehow, but the rhythm is really punctuated it's not intricate.
39:21 --> 39:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.
39:22 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_04]: So when I say it's there's no accents I know that's more something you would refer to melody with that term.
39:32 --> 39:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to call it flat because that's not the right quantifier either but something in those that area that is uniform but but driving but driving.
39:41 --> 39:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to have you count one two three four repetitively and I'm going to speak the rhythm of the melody.
39:47 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
39:47 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Go.
39:48 --> 39:49 [SPEAKER_04]: One two three four.
39:50 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_04]: One two three four.
39:50 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_04]: One four.
39:51 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_04]: One four.
39:51 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_04]: One.
39:51 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_04]: The way you need it.
39:53 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Any way you want it.
39:54 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Or one.
39:55 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Anything you noted?
39:56 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_04]: No, super easy counting.
39:57 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's do it again.
39:59 --> 40:01 [SPEAKER_04]: One, two, three, four, one.
40:01 --> 40:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Where you want it, that's the way you need it.
40:04 --> 40:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Anywhere you want it.
40:06 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_04]: The accent just on the downbeat, on one.
40:09 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it?
40:10 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Anywhere you want it, that's the way you need it.
40:13 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Anywhere you want it, is that really how it goes?
40:17 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Anywhere you want it, that's the way you need it.
40:20 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that's the reason.
40:21 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Count.
40:22 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Just tell me.
40:23 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_03]: No, count.
40:30 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Where's the accent with vocal?
40:33 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Two.
40:34 --> 40:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll get there eventually.
40:35 --> 40:37 [SPEAKER_03]: It's the one way you want it really.
40:37 --> 40:38 [SPEAKER_03]: He literally doesn't.
40:38 --> 40:39 [SPEAKER_04]: It's on three.
40:39 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I said anyway, you want it.
40:40 --> 40:41 [SPEAKER_04]: That's the way you need it.
40:50 --> 40:52 [SPEAKER_04]: for between one and two, so it's in one hand.
40:52 --> 40:55 [SPEAKER_04]: One, two, three, for any way you want it.
40:55 --> 40:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That's the way.
40:57 --> 40:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's like,
40:59 --> 41:01 [SPEAKER_04]: right before the downbeat.
41:01 --> 41:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Right before the downbeat.
41:02 --> 41:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And I was quoting is the downbeat because I'm not that's what I want me to say.
41:05 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_04]: But it's not it's not, but it's it like falls into it.
41:09 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
41:09 --> 41:11 [SPEAKER_04]: So fall into the downbeat.
41:11 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that what we have is the vocal coming in on the end of four right one two three four edit and the band does the same thing.
41:26 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_03]: this is called pushing the beat okay so in this case they're pushing one which means you're hitting one but what you're doing is hitting before one so if you were to push two you would emphasize you would come in early before two right so it'd be like one two three four one badaadaadaadaadaadaada that would be pushing one this is one two three four badaadaadaadaadaadaadaadaada
41:50 --> 42:06 [SPEAKER_03]: and this is an eighth note early right one and two and three and four and in this case they are pushing one but it could also be pushing one could also be a 16th note right you don't have to be nice note could be a triplet it depends on the tempo and you're overall groove right
42:06 --> 42:10 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the word that you gave me as a prompt, a pushing melody.
42:11 --> 42:11 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what you said.
42:11 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_04]: You're saying talk about a pushing, pushing melody.
42:14 --> 42:15 [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, all right.
42:15 --> 42:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So there could be you could look to a more music theory nerd kind of term for this.
42:20 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_03]: So, but it would be wrong.
42:22 --> 42:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I think a term that I would maybe be tempted to use is anticipation.
42:27 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Who I love it?
42:28 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_03]: which is actually sort of a different thing.
42:30 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So here's the chord and everything moves early.
42:35 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_03]: So we have 1, 2, 3, 4, and, right?
42:39 --> 42:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a harmonic rhythm change and a melody change.
42:42 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Like everything changes.
42:44 --> 42:45 [SPEAKER_03]: an eighth note to early.
42:46 --> 42:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And anticipation would be when the melody moves before the chord moves.
42:51 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So if the chords in the band didn't go, if the chord in the band went dada, dada, dada, dada, dada, dada, dada, and he went dada, dada, dada, dada, if the vocals were coming to early, that would be an anticipation.
43:04 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is what we have.
43:06 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_03]: If I just show you
43:08 --> 43:14 [SPEAKER_03]: how this sounds with the melody and the chords pushing at the same time it would sound like this.
43:22 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't work as well on the piano does it.
43:24 --> 43:25 [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of love it.
43:25 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_04]: So I love your piano versions.
43:28 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_04]: They're one of my favorite parts of our podcast.
43:30 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_03]: It's disappointing when I randomly do a guitar and stuff.
43:34 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_03]: So this would be the same thing, but done as an anticipation.
43:37 --> 43:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what I'm gonna do is the chords will still go one, two, three, four.
43:41 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_03]: The melody will jump in early.
43:42 --> 43:47 [SPEAKER_03]: That would be what is a type of non-harmonic tone, which means a melody is off the chord.
43:48 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_03]: That would be different.
43:49 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_03]: That would have been this.
43:58 --> 44:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So the chords in the band stay on the one, the melody is early.
44:03 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_03]: That's not what's happening here.
44:04 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_03]: When you push the beat, everything is being brought early.
44:07 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's cool.
44:09 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And the earlier when I was talking about motivation, you were talking about dopamine.
44:12 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_04]: And this idea of how dopamine impacts motivation.
44:15 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of it is the anticipatory dopamine release that you're going to get from a rosal.
44:22 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why video games keep you playing for hours and hours.
44:28 --> 44:31 [SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk about more in that in our personal episode.
44:31 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, spoiler for next week.
44:33 --> 44:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm everybody.
44:34 --> 44:37 [SPEAKER_03]: We're doing We'll see Phil.
44:37 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we will.
44:38 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_03]: That's fascinating.
44:39 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_03]: It's gambling, right?
44:40 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I need you.
44:40 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_04]: You win a little bit.
44:41 --> 44:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you play for another five hours to quit.
44:44 --> 44:45 [SPEAKER_04]: And sex too for sure.
44:45 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what this motif really speaks to the sexual arousal that you're referencing in the song, this very event is a patient.
44:55 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Pushing.
44:55 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_03]: pushing because it's really anticipation is sort of different, right?
45:00 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_04]: I was just trying to work in a rocky horror reference because anyone that likes rocky horror every time you say anticipation, they're like,
45:07 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Man, it's been a long time since I've seen Rocky Horror.
45:10 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_04]: That's very good.
45:11 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
45:11 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
45:12 --> 45:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see effect of all of this.
45:13 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_03]: It adds to the groove, but to the point that you're making it adds to a sense of urgency.
45:18 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
45:18 --> 45:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Fits the theme of the song to me like there's an impulsivity kind of to this.
45:23 --> 45:26 [SPEAKER_03]: The lyrics and to just the overall vibe this creates.
45:26 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And we hear this as early as the song's intro.
45:39 --> 45:43 [SPEAKER_03]: At the beginning, it's really unclear what beat we're on because it's just bomb, but right right there.
45:44 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_03]: But it becomes clear as we hear it, that those band hits are off the beat.
45:48 --> 45:53 [SPEAKER_03]: The first thing we hear is the end of four, and the second one is actually four and.
45:53 --> 45:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So it goes one, two, three, four, bomb, two, three, bap, bap, bap.
45:58 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_03]: So is that a push?
45:59 --> 46:02 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the whole measure is being pushed to beat early.
46:02 --> 46:03 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not off the beat.
46:03 --> 46:08 [SPEAKER_03]: It's but the second part of that beat maybe is a little accented.
46:08 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's this sort of a weaker push.
46:10 --> 46:13 [SPEAKER_03]: But then the guitar responds, right?
46:13 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Which is a big part of this.
46:14 --> 46:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, you want a push.
46:17 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_03]: You need a push and then the guitar.
46:24 --> 46:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And that bad, that's always on the end of four, right?
46:29 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_03]: So that continues in the verse, of course.
46:32 --> 46:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Two of the four chords we hear happen with a push on the eighth, just like that.
46:36 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And two of them happen on the beat.
46:38 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's sort of like slightly weaker, I would say, overall.
46:43 --> 46:46 [SPEAKER_03]: But note that the vocal in the verse is not doing the push.
46:47 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_03]: The vocals are kind of almost back and forth with the instrument.
46:50 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_03]: So listen, it is a little bit less intense effect
46:55 --> 47:07 [SPEAKER_02]: She wants to live, she wants to sing, she does everything She wants to move, she wants to groove, she loves another thing
47:09 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of messed up that they sang this song and glee.
47:11 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_04]: They were like, high schoolers.
47:12 --> 47:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a lot that probably they don't know.
47:15 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But that was don't stop believing.
47:16 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind.
47:17 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, it's don't stop believing.
47:19 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Come back to sex often.
47:20 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably is.
47:20 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_03]: It was don't know.
47:21 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't think so.
47:22 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think so.
47:23 --> 47:25 [SPEAKER_03]: So the vocal does come in off the beat.
47:26 --> 47:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
47:26 --> 47:27 [SPEAKER_03]: She loves to laugh.
47:27 --> 47:30 [SPEAKER_03]: But the difference is there is that's not the accented.
47:31 --> 47:34 [SPEAKER_03]: When he says, as it she loves to laugh something like that, she loves to, it's a pick-up.
47:35 --> 47:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Once she loves to laugh, as opposed to any way you want, uh, like he's not emphasizing the off the beat.
47:42 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_03]: He's landing still on the main beat.
47:57 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_03]: We basically have the the band sticks to its same accent pattern of the end of four, but the vocal gradually gets more syncopated until it starts sort of on pickups, but it ends fully, I would say, pushing to all night.
48:12 --> 48:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So 1, 2, 3, 4, what all night is where we end?
48:16 --> 48:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we have kind of two happening at the same time.
48:33 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_03]: So when he's on that whole tight, that is very much pushing beat two while the band is still pushing four, right?
48:39 --> 48:53 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's pretty much baked into all of this song, just on various levels, leading us back to everybody doing it together, the vocal, the band, the chords, everything for the chorus.
49:08 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I did it.
49:09 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_03]: You did it.
49:09 --> 49:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I've got some examples of other songs to show you, but that's it.
49:12 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
49:13 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_03]: It's simple, but it's cool, right?
49:15 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's just it.
49:15 --> 49:20 [SPEAKER_04]: It's simple enough that it's accessible and we can get on board with it.
49:20 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And we get comfortable with this rhythmic convention enough that we can anticipate it.
49:25 --> 49:26 [SPEAKER_04]: And we know what's coming.
49:26 --> 49:28 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no big surprises.
49:28 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_04]: and it's still full of challenges and surprises like his awesome vocal performance here in the song and like the awesome guitar performance in the song.
49:37 --> 49:44 [SPEAKER_04]: It helps keep us in that little nook and in the pocket of this tune in a way that keeps us coming back for more and keeps us motivated to listen.
49:44 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_03]: It's also very much not any way you want it.
49:47 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the way you need it, any way you want it on the beat.
49:51 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And that would be way more dumb.
49:52 --> 49:53 [SPEAKER_04]: It would be super dumb.
49:54 --> 49:57 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just shifting that one note early makes the whole difference.
49:58 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
49:58 --> 50:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is pretty common.
50:00 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_03]: We have pushing the beat happening in journey and in other artists too.
50:06 --> 50:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So let's hear some examples.
50:08 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_03]: This is Who's Crying Now, 1981.
50:10 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_03]: This time, the vocal does not follow the band in the push.
50:28 --> 50:34 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's another great example of like, you're not messing with the structure of the song too much.
50:34 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's still a lower, the song has a lower affect because of just the tone of it, but it still intends and interesting.
50:43 --> 50:44 [SPEAKER_03]: You've heard that song, right?
50:44 --> 50:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I have.
50:45 --> 50:46 [SPEAKER_03]: No, what it was called.
50:47 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_04]: who's crying now.
50:48 --> 50:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea what that was called to literally like I've heard that sounds so much.
50:51 --> 50:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's very clear.
50:53 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
50:53 --> 50:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Who's crying now?
50:54 --> 50:54 [SPEAKER_04]: It's all they say.
50:54 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_03]: This is one of those bands that like I definitely forget some of their songs.
50:58 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Well you forget I forget that that's a journey song.
51:01 --> 51:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
51:02 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I've heard that song a million times and if you played it for me I'd be like oh journey but like if you add asked me to list the journey songs I know I would probably forget.
51:10 --> 51:18 [SPEAKER_04]: even in like kind of prepping for this episode and like I don't even know journey songs and I looked at the list of them and I was like oh I don't yeah I don't really do like all of them.
51:18 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_04]: So 1983 asked the lonely
51:39 --> 51:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that a different lead singer?
51:40 --> 51:41 [SPEAKER_03]: No, that's the pair again.
51:41 --> 51:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And what's the how long?
51:43 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Like what's the date on that song?
51:45 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_04]: 83.
51:45 --> 51:46 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like later.
51:47 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, this song is that much.
51:49 --> 51:50 [SPEAKER_03]: This song is 80.
51:50 --> 51:51 [SPEAKER_03]: So.
51:51 --> 51:53 [SPEAKER_04]: And it just seems like he's.
51:53 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_04]: His voice sounds different to me.
51:55 --> 51:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure he's still with them there.
51:58 --> 52:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, we have pushing the beat.
52:00 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_03]: That time, not every chord, not every measure, but about half of them.
52:09 --> 52:19 [SPEAKER_02]: That's our call in school in life Can't help but sound my heart
52:24 --> 52:26 [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't never heard those on that one.
52:26 --> 52:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know.
52:26 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_04]: I like it though.
52:28 --> 52:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's cool.
52:28 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, bringing it back to the non-synthesizer version of don't stop believing.
52:34 --> 52:39 [SPEAKER_03]: We have examples of pushing and not pushing within moments of each other.
52:39 --> 52:43 [SPEAKER_03]: This is the real version of that song, 1981, of course, from Escape.
52:44 --> 52:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, with cool album cover.
52:46 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Journey is Escape.
52:47 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Note that the base does the push, but the right hand of the piano does not push.
53:09 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_03]: But then just a few seconds later, the verse starts, and it stops, they are not out, and suddenly everything is happening on beat one instead of the push to beat an eighth note before.
53:37 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_03]: I take it back, the second and fourth chord still push, but the budum ball.
53:42 --> 53:45 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I was gonna mention it, I was gonna mention that.
53:45 --> 53:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Then I was wrong, yeah.
53:46 --> 53:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's good, that's why I had to get in there.
53:49 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_03]: First, it's like, you've got to call out your insecurities and laugh about it in yourself or else that way I take away the power of you to hurt me.
53:56 --> 54:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even notice it because I was too swept up in the narrative of this song.
54:02 --> 54:05 [SPEAKER_04]: This song is like, you know that episode of Sign Feld,
54:06 --> 54:13 [SPEAKER_04]: where they play Desperado and like the guy Elaine's boyfriend like spaces like just so she's just Brada.
54:14 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh man.
54:14 --> 54:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen some sign flow.
54:16 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_03]: That's all I can say is some sign flow.
54:18 --> 54:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what to ton of sign flow.
54:20 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_04]: You need to do that.
54:22 --> 54:34 [SPEAKER_04]: But with a song like I hear it, I hear like that intro piano part and just everything melts away and I'm just like transported with a music like something about the song like just takes me away every time I hear it.
54:34 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_03]: You should play the video game.
54:36 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, a few non-journey examples.
54:39 --> 54:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Perfect, I was hoping you'd have some non-journey.
54:42 --> 54:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is actually an episode I almost did last season and then decided to do Luther.
54:49 --> 54:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It's down.
54:49 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So Kendrick Lamar, 2015, these walls.
54:53 --> 54:59 [SPEAKER_03]: This is still an eighth note push, but has more of a jazzy kind of R&B less rock feel.
55:01 --> 55:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how long I could wait in these walls, I've been honest.
55:04 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Notably, the drums don't.
55:05 --> 55:12 [SPEAKER_00]: The bass and the keyboards, and I think some of the guitar, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, coming in early, but that beat is still his book.
55:31 --> 55:34 [SPEAKER_03]: not really following along at all.
55:34 --> 55:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, 2002, also sort of R&B-ish, but maybe a little more gospel leaning in terms of the groove, move, five, Sunday morning.
55:44 --> 55:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I love the song.
55:45 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_03]: This one is not pushing the eighth note.
55:49 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_03]: It is pushing beat three and one with a swung 16.
55:52 --> 55:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Ooh.
55:53 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that kind of a vibe.
55:57 --> 55:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And the bass does not follow.
55:59 --> 56:00 [SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly the piano.
56:01 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That someday it would leave me back to you That someday it would leave me back to you That maybe all I need Darkness she is all I see I promise your both Do you like Murn 5?
56:26 --> 56:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I like that song a lot.
56:27 --> 56:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
56:28 --> 56:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I like some of their songs.
56:29 --> 56:32 [SPEAKER_03]: I know I'm sure you've got thoughts on Adam Levine.
56:32 --> 56:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's come back to that.
56:33 --> 56:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that first era of them.
56:36 --> 56:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
56:36 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually saw them.
56:38 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I used to like usher like I had a cool.
56:40 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, have I mentioned that I would usher it's the world field in San Francisco.
56:45 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_04]: It was a story like follow-up around.
56:46 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_03]: No, not usher.
56:48 --> 56:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I would usher.
56:50 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I love us here.
56:51 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure I want to do an episode on us.
56:53 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I can see it like you think it was in the 2000s when I was a college student.
56:56 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That's my dream job.
56:58 --> 57:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I had a connection that I could like sign up and see a show for free by us and basically and they cut it off after a couple of years because it was I bet they could find people that would pay them to let them.
57:09 --> 57:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my my students works at a couple of like I'll call out like she works at Fenway and the host
57:18 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And she's not like, you wouldn't look at her and be like, oh, she should be security, but she like checks bags and archers and sees all the concerts.
57:25 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_04]: That's awesome.
57:26 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
57:26 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_03]: So I did that for a little while and saw some bands.
57:31 --> 57:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like they opened for like gustor or train.
57:36 --> 57:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I saw all these bands.
57:38 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I saw different combinations.
57:40 --> 57:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I saw them.
57:41 --> 57:41 [SPEAKER_03]: This was like.
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_03]: very early, right?
57:43 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Because this is 2002.
57:44 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
57:45 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I must have seen them that year.
57:47 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Like nobody knew maybe that one song harder to breathe had come out.
57:50 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Only they were the opener.
57:52 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And I like them.
57:53 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, and I like a lot of the sort of funky stuff.
57:56 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_03]: I got to say it when they went the direction of the kind of late.
58:00 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_03]: It's early 2010's dance pop.
58:02 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't really dig it as much anymore.
58:05 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I like what I haven't really listened to much.
58:06 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I like them.
58:07 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_04]: It's easy listening for me.
58:08 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
58:09 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_03]: We can talk about Maroon five.
58:10 --> 58:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
58:11 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to talk about the musical merits of Maroon five and nothing more.
58:15 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
58:15 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever that means.
58:16 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say it's one of those bands and there are others that I wonder if it's really a band anymore.
58:22 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
58:23 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_03]: What does it mean to be in a band when that's what happens to the trajectory of the music?
58:26 --> 58:27 [SPEAKER_03]: But come back to this thing.
58:27 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_03]: One more example.
58:28 --> 58:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I really like Sunday morning.
58:29 --> 58:30 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a beautiful song.
58:30 --> 58:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
58:31 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So back to the boys are back in town.
58:33 --> 58:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Back to Finn Lizzy.
58:34 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_03]: This one a few years early.
58:36 --> 58:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is probably why they're like, oh, that song is a big influence, listen to the push, listen to the groove.
58:59 --> 58:59 [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I got.
59:00 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
59:00 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And I remember why I started thinking about motivation.
59:03 --> 59:07 [SPEAKER_04]: It was that word push when you said the push for them.
59:07 --> 59:10 [SPEAKER_03]: When I said something about that in a text message, you do like what the hell is that mean?
59:10 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's not look at it.
59:11 --> 59:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually in the document, actually in the shared drive, by the way, but is in quotations?
59:18 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Just I think you made it out.
59:19 --> 59:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, it's interesting.
59:21 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in quotations pushed for them or something like that.
59:25 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's like a term but not.
59:27 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_03]: not as universal.
59:28 --> 59:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a big capital P, right?
59:31 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I started thinking about what, you know, what pushed us us in certain directions.
59:36 --> 59:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And then the song title anyway, you want it like made me think of like how, how we're all pushed in different directions by different things.
59:43 --> 59:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
59:44 --> 59:56 [SPEAKER_04]: And that led me down the road of exploring like in this song, in this type of music, how can you connect motivation to this idea that the music's challenging but not too intricate.
59:56 --> 59:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
59:57 --> 59:57 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's intricate.
59:57 --> 01:00:03 [SPEAKER_04]: That's not even the wrong word that's so minimizing, but it's challenging and accessible at the same time.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a real tricky sweet spot to achieve in music.
01:00:06 --> 01:00:08 [SPEAKER_04]: And journey was great at it.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why they had such a long-standing awesome career writing hits that we can never remember until we hear them.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, they're still together.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Still many lineup changes later except for the guitarist I'm pretty sure.
01:00:20 --> 01:00:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Mr.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Journey.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Mister journey.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:24 [SPEAKER_04]: He was the linchpin.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:25 [SPEAKER_04]: He was like that.
01:00:25 --> 01:00:26 [SPEAKER_03]: How do we end?
01:00:26 --> 01:00:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Do we just end with I think you should play the video game music again.
01:00:30 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I think we need to hear did they just the video game music use that push Really you know what I'm gonna actually okay because I have not played this game in 40 yeah maybe not almost 40 years right but I was looking at YouTube videos at it I'm not you hear that don't stop believe in at the beginning and then when the game starts
01:00:49 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_03]: you hear this music and I think I want everybody to thus acknowledge the compositional brilliance of a song like don't stop believing versus the music you hear when you're actually playing the game.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and hosted and produced by Mark Poppony.
01:02:07 --> 01:02:14 [SPEAKER_04]: You can email us at nevermusicquaditchimal.com and give us a follow on social media.
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01:02:21 --> 01:02:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.