Were you one of those people who loved group projects back in school? If so, you must be the social loafer! This week we synergize with The Eagles’ 1976 country-rock gem “New Kid in Town.” Nichole talks about creative collaboration in a conversation that ranges widely, from interpersonal conflict to podcast co-host dynamics and classroom assignments. Mark homes in on the brilliant pattern of key changes in this song that shows this band was more than just fist fights and back-stabbing.
For visual learners, the key scheme to this song goes like this (the capital letters are major keys and the lower-case letters are minor or dorian keys):
E - c# - E - c# - E - G - e - E
Other music heard in this episode: Linda Ronstadt - “Rock Me On the Water”, Linda Ronstadt - “In My Reply”, The Eagles - “Ol’ 55”, The Eagles - “Nightingale”, The Eagles - “Is It True?”, The Eagles - “Train Leaves Here This Morning”, The Eagles - “In the City”, The Eagles - “Love Will Keep Us Alive”, The Eagles - “Visions”, The Eagles - “Victim of Love”, Don Felder - “Victim of Love”, The Eagles - “Try and Love Again”, The Eagles - “One of these Nights”, Wolfang Amadeus Mozart - “Piano Sonata No. 16 in C major, K. 545, I (Ingrid Haebler, piano)”, Joe Walsh - “Life’s Been Good”, The Eagles - “The Last Resort”, Poco - “Bad Weather”, Bobby Darin - “Beyond the Sea”, Taylor Swift - “The Life of a Showgirl (feat. Sabrina Carpenter”
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00:00 --> 00:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, don't you sometimes want to go along to get along?
00:03 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
00:03 --> 00:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, sorry.
00:04 --> 00:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't here.
00:05 --> 00:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And we, it's like, imagine if you did that to me, it's like, I, I bailed on a recording session.
00:10 --> 00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, I got my other friend to come in.
00:13 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Nicole with no age to come in.
00:14 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, but Nicole with no age with awesome.
00:18 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, too.
00:19 --> 00:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, Paul, okay.
00:20 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we got to keep it.
00:21 --> 00:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess I'm going back to being on all the other episodes.
00:34 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm Nicole and I'm Mark and this is never mind the music.
00:38 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_01]: What are we going to talk about today, Mark?
00:39 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a bit today.
00:41 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I like starting with our bit.
00:43 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Me, so.
00:44 --> 00:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's kind of too much to talk about with this band, honestly.
00:47 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking about the Eagles, new kid in town.
01:11 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you like the Eagles?
01:12 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I am.
01:13 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_01]: My heart is beating and I like the Beatles.
01:15 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Are the Eagles?
01:17 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They're the same, right?
01:18 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, but I'm sorry.
01:19 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_01]: My heart is beating and I like the Eagles.
01:21 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Who doesn't?
01:22 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Jesus, I mean, there's the clip from the Big Lebowski.
01:27 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a really good look to say to kick ass out.
01:29 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, come on, I had a rough night and I hate the fucking Eagles, man.
01:47 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen that movie.
01:49 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You've never seen 1998's Big Lebowski.
01:52 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I've watched it in like, that counts as seeing it.
01:56 --> 01:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, not really dialed in.
01:58 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was on, but I couldn't recap the plot.
02:02 --> 02:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I know there's a rug involved.
02:04 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: and a robe and bowling.
02:05 --> 02:11 [SPEAKER_00]: There's definitely, yes, that movie was really popular with a certain type of high schoolers.
02:11 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that I think I'm that type.
02:13 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're the Kyle and here's it.
02:15 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But, um, and my friends, yeah, everybody, I mean, I love that movie.
02:19 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hilarious, but I also liked the Eagles.
02:22 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it became very quotable.
02:25 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: The I hate the Eagles part of that movie.
02:27 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, yeah, peaceful, easy feeling.
02:29 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
02:30 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_00]: The dude doesn't like it.
02:31 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
02:31 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
02:32 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But,
02:32 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he would like a peaceful easy feeling.
02:36 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that like his whole vibe?
02:37 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Totally, that what's the term the dude I can't remember?
02:41 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Dude of vibes.
02:42 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The dude of vibes, yeah, that's his hair.
02:43 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a good like peaceful.
02:44 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so you definitely see that movie.
02:46 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that so cool?
02:47 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, but...
02:49 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_00]: There is hate for the Eagles, and that's a very LA scene because there are people there that will like really hate the Eagles, but like you'll hear hotel California just randomly from people's apartments blasting way too late at night when you Leave them Los Angeles.
03:02 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll never let them Los Angeles.
03:04 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the most successful bands of all time, even though there is a fair amount of hate, it's probably because of that success, right?
03:12 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So their greatest hits album, which I think is called their greatest hits, 1971, 1975, which I guess is the first greatest hits album.
03:20 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
03:21 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Is the fifth best selling record ever?
03:24 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Ever.
03:25 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_00]: 43.2 million records sold.
03:28 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what I know at the sixth best selling record ever is?
03:33 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine, I said, no, yeah, of course I know hotel california.
03:36 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, which came out the same year, 1976.
03:39 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: What a good year for that.
03:41 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_00]: 3.8 million copies sold, but that's ever not just that year.
03:46 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, no, yeah, that's right.
03:48 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It leads to date when I got the data.
03:50 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
03:51 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So I grew up a fan.
03:52 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_00]: My parents were fans.
03:54 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very so cow.
03:55 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, I'm a big vocal harmony guy.
03:57 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
03:58 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
04:03 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's probably the source of my like for bands with different lead singers that switch, you know, it's the Beatles or less than Jake or bands I've been in like it's just like a thing I like.
04:16 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And it probably a lot of then comes from the Eagles.
04:20 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know, they started as the backing band for Linda Ronstatt?
04:24 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that, but that's true.
04:25 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Rock that tracks.
04:26 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I can, yeah.
04:27 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So you remember when we talked about system of a down and Los Angeles scenes, there was that Laurel Canyon scene, which is this late 60s, early 70s, and they all like lived in the house together and shared spit songs, shared spit and songs.
04:43 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
04:44 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
04:44 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So,
04:45 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Part of that is a lot of people playing together in support of other artists, right?
04:50 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So, this is a song written by Jackson Brown, which is already one of those other people that they're living with and collaborating with.
04:57 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a linda-run stat tune rock me on the water.
05:00 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_00]: This features Glenn Fry and Don Henley as a part of the backing band.
05:25 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_01]: interesting lyrics and they were really heard that.
05:27 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't even listening.
05:29 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was listening, but I wasn't listening to the lyrics.
05:33 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You never do.
05:34 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I do, but it takes a certain number of lessons before I do.
05:37 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I rarely do when we're just doing, you know, a first round on something.
05:43 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Another tune this one, not featuring those two.
05:45 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Same year, 1972, in my reply, features
05:53 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_05]: She heard I stole the show In my reply, a line of it And said I didn't know
06:11 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_01]: What was Linda Ronstett's deal, I don't know much about that.
06:15 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
06:15 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Those survived.
06:16 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_00]: She was a country rock singer.
06:18 --> 06:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it country rock singer?
06:19 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Was she around the same time as like a Carol King?
06:22 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a cool Saturday.
06:23 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:24 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is that song when will I be loved that she did a popular version of it?
06:29 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that that might not be an actual Carol King song, but it's that same.
06:33 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those 60s, a bill building pop.
06:37 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a great song.
06:39 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Her versions of it is awesome too.
06:41 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's that same kind of songwriter, 60 songs.
06:44 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it has the same tone to me.
06:46 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
06:47 --> 06:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And she gave it the kind of boogie wookie country rock.
06:49 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and has the Eagles backing her, which I don't think that song has the Eagles backing her, but it has various other people that they probably were roommates of.
06:57 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
06:58 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Eagle, it's the Eagles expanded universe.
07:00 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to talk about the Eagles expand the universe later.
07:02 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
07:03 --> 07:10 [SPEAKER_00]: These guys, this is a lot like when we talked about Toto, where they were session musicians then decide, hey, we sound good together.
07:10 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's start a band.
07:11 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Love that for them.
07:12 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were also like Toto or like Fleetwood Mac, they were each individually singer songwriters.
07:19 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's part of what makes them great.
07:21 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I actually have a sampling.
07:23 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to hear all of the lead vocalists of the Eagles.
07:26 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
07:27 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_00]: In no particular order,
07:31 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_00]: But the order you will hear them is Glen Fry, Don Henley, Randy Meisner, Bernie Letton, Joe Walsh, Timothy B. Schmidt, and even Don Felder, who gets exactly one lead vocal in the entire Eagle's repertoire, and you will come back to a story about that later.
07:49 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to know the names of these songs, folks check the show notes.
07:52 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It's too much here.
08:12 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_04]: I never knew if that the man I wasn't done How could I know it was the right time?
08:23 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know just what you wanted might have been But it was getting tiny
09:11 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So the third to last one was my favorite.
09:14 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Who is that?
09:16 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_00]: The third to last one was Joe Walls.
09:20 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like the city.
09:21 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's like iconic to me.
09:24 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_01]: When I think of the Eagles, that's like the tone I think of.
09:26 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's one of the only ones of those that wasn't a deep cut.
09:29 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Also that was like a minor single.
09:31 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
09:31 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I tried to pull kind of more random stuff for most of those.
09:35 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The second last one sounded like a lady, but it wasn't.
09:39 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Timothy Bechman has a very high beautiful, beautiful, lyrical voice.
09:43 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_00]: They replaced one high singing bass player with another high singing bass player.
09:47 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The first couple all sounded like the same.
09:49 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm surprised to hear they're different people.
09:51 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
09:51 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to me.
09:52 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I'll say Mark, really great job editing that clip together because that was all just one clip.
09:57 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And we got some tempo continuity.
10:00 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was like, I'm a professional.
10:01 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It was, you hyper fixation on that fish.
10:05 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
10:06 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: More time than probably it took to listen to, I'll say that.
10:09 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, I feel like the Eagles are one of those bands that's too big for us to really like dig in and go in through their history or any of that.
10:16 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But part of the awesomeness that I just was highlighting there also maybe brings us to the notion of too many cooks being in the kitchen and inevitable conflict that might come from that and so I didn't want to talk about that for a few minutes and then I want to see kind of what you want to talk about and go from there, but even early on there were musical disagreements Bernie let in original guitar player.
10:39 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_00]: who we heard for one of those samples there, left the band because he thought they were going too much in a rock direction.
10:45 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He wanted to stick more country, right?
10:47 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure those two sort of patriarchs of the band, Glenn Fry, one of the guitar players in Don Henley, the drummer.
10:53 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure they had their fair share of conflict, but apparently it was really more
10:57 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Glen Fry and Dawn Felder, the league guitar player, to the point that they kind of broke up in 1980 because of that only to reunite in the 90s and then kind of on and off since then they apparently literally came to blows backstage and this is part of why system of a down felt very much like an era parent to the LA conflict scene because they also have come to blows with each other.
11:20 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So like the Eagles broke down and you're saying that system of a down like filled that gap.
11:25 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the Eagles walked so system of a down could run.
11:30 --> 11:31 [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of doing the conflict.
11:31 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Although, no, the Eagles didn't get sick of the conflict because they actually fired Don Felder in 2001 who eventually sued them over money.
11:39 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:40 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And he co-wrote a bunch of their songs, so like it's all complicated.
11:43 --> 11:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many Dons do you need?
11:45 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_00]: That's true, like I think you need at least one at least one.
11:48 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to have at least one and they had that.
11:50 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Two is a possibly a problem.
11:52 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just confusing.
11:53 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:53 --> 11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And like dot-h, dot-h, and it's like a...
11:57 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:57 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_01]: High school classroom.
11:59 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a Glenn in there too, which might confuse some people.
12:03 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
12:03 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So the example I wanted a highlight of the pettiness and the interband on it.
12:07 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
12:08 --> 12:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to talk about cool key changes.
12:09 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to talk about today and then all like I have so many different directions.
12:13 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I can go with the song.
12:15 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I really want to talk about conditional and unconditional love.
12:20 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because the lyrics.
12:22 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Expose that is like the fickleness of this human condition that like we love people and then we don't all of a sudden and And then I was also thinking about like imposter syndrome too and then like romantic and tangalments Okay, go a couple different let's come back to it.
12:38 --> 12:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay based on My interpretation of what this song is about this is one that I've actually listened to the lyrics.
12:44 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So Maybe that'll change I hear assuming that I haven't well I don't think this is a love song
12:52 --> 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's about the music industry.
12:53 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's about the music industry, but like how we cast people aside.
12:58 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
12:59 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
13:00 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And their afraid will be them.
13:03 --> 13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Some new band will cut, because this is a concept album, right?
13:06 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Hotel of California, the desolation of Southern California in the 1970s, basically.
13:11 --> 13:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:12 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And people just want the next cool new band.
13:15 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's about like being replaced, like being scared to be replaced.
13:19 --> 13:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the lyrics are about that happening in a relationship, but I think they're actually more about that, right?
13:26 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, conflict conflict.
13:27 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I dish for a second?
13:28 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's all I've ever had.
13:29 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of my favorite stories in rock music, like lore.
13:35 --> 13:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know the song on Hotel, California called Vickum of Love?
13:40 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
13:47 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_05]: You got your stone to tell Victor, my God, set you near the path And you know how to make so wait
14:02 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: never heard it.
14:03 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So you haven't heard the call for me.
14:05 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
14:05 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_00]: This was also a minor single.
14:07 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
14:08 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's a song.
14:09 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it technically was the B side to the song.
14:11 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about new kid in town.
14:13 --> 14:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know new kid in town?
14:14 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I know the song.
14:15 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The song we're doing.
14:16 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
14:16 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
14:16 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
14:17 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You're doing we know that song.
14:18 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:18 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was the B side of that, but sort of a double A side or something like the Beatles used to do.
14:23 --> 14:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But, okay, so in the previous album, Don Felder was really just sort of like a good Taurus, not one of the singers, which is sort of rare in that band.
14:31 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_00]: He sang one song on one of these nights called Vision, so I played it was a part of my medley.
14:36 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right?
14:37 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_00]: He was supposed to sing lead to victim of love.
14:41 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like this blues rocker, pretty sure he co-wrote it.
14:44 --> 14:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Felder is going to sing it.
14:45 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: We're a collaborative band, et cetera, right?
14:48 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_00]: He even recorded a few takes of the lead vocal.
14:52 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not we can hear him sing it though.
14:53 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_00]: This is him singing it many years later at a solo show because he had been fired from the band
15:21 --> 15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So he wrote the song, he, I think he's one of the writers.
15:25 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, but a lot of their songs.
15:27 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So Jeff out for you, he's a three-riginal.
15:28 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
15:29 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And he like, first off, one to sing it.
15:30 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, no, you can't.
15:32 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he leaves the band and then on his solo tour, he sings the song.
15:38 --> 15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: the middle of that story is less interesting than what actually happened and scandalous but like sure yeah he can play whatever you know there's like two beach boys bands right now there's like the my club one that does their songs and there's the one that Brian Wilson was in before he passed that plays out like there's kind of like patty and I love it so what
15:58 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So he was supposed to sing the song and I think again, he's one of the co-writers and he recorded some of it and he sounds pretty good singing it.
16:05 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard when you got like done Henley's like really good.
16:08 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He's probably the best singer.
16:10 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're used to hearing like a produced track and not like of course.
16:13 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't felt there's not like really a vocalist, but he can probably make it work, right?
16:17 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So he records some takes of it.
16:19 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Their manager Irving is off takes Felder to dinner to get him away from the scene at the crime.
16:27 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_00]: and the other guys have Henley clandestine do a recording session and record all the lead vocal and then it comes back and it's like oh the song is done now we got Henley to do it and of course it's gonna sound better with Henley but like don't you sometimes want to go along to get along
16:43 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: right like oh sorry you weren't here and we it's like imagine if you did that to me it's like I I bailed on a recording session like oh I got my other friend to come in Nicole with no age to come in what like but Nicole with no age with awesome yes to like Paul okay I guess we got to keep it and I guess I'm going back to being on all the other episodes like yeah
17:04 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, and I know that's not one of the fist fight incidents, but there's something about that story that highlights the pettiness, sorry that Eagles, I love your music, but the pettiness of some artists that like, you can't just be like either a man.
17:20 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't sound as good as if I sang it, but this band thrives off of collaboration.
17:25 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Great!
17:27 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Man, this song would be a huge hit if I sing it.
17:29 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk to him and talk him into, hey, man, we'll give you another guitar solo, but can I please sing lead on that?
17:35 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like they were looking for a way to get them out and lay with, like, sabotage it.
17:39 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: They, like...
17:39 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, they still put out another album.
17:43 --> 17:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't get fired until the 2000s.
17:45 --> 17:47 [SPEAKER_00]: They broke up for a while, but like, so it's just...
17:48 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
17:48 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And the irony is, this song is one of the only ones if only one on that record.
17:53 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That wasn't done with instrumental overduts.
17:55 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_00]: They recorded it as a five piece rock band with Mike's live, essentially.
17:59 --> 18:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they just never touched it again.
18:01 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, but I'm sure they added the vocals later.
18:03 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But
18:03 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of the songs they would have recorded all as overdops like the drummer records now the bass player records then league guitar or whatever no they did that like as a collaborative jam and there were anything but collaborative when it came to it.
18:16 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It really helped them stick with the story like oh we were just jamming out and he just sang it and sounded so good we just decided to keep it.
18:23 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it was like I don't know I want to know if it was on purpose if they like manufactured that to get to really get him out of the room.
18:32 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
18:32 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it apparently they like had the manager take him out to dinner or maybe it was the manager's idea for all I know but like let's get him off the scene and have him They regret it.
18:41 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like where did they go to dinner?
18:43 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not relevant.
18:43 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a very relevant.
18:45 --> 18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not have But I'm imagining I'm imagining
18:48 --> 18:52 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the name of the huge diner on Fairfax Avenue in Los Angeles?
18:52 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Dude, I, you're asking the wrong girl.
18:54 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm imagine like a candle lit Italian restaurant.
18:58 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like, it was really nice.
19:00 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
19:00 --> 19:02 [SPEAKER_00]: They're driving the dagger through his back.
19:02 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, taking them to like, like, I'm ever just be starting to don a lot.
19:06 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I started thinking of like, mob and mafia motifs.
19:09 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_00]: The don, yeah, they took on help.
19:11 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
19:12 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
19:13 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's fine.
19:14 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll focus.
19:15 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: This is part of why I have the hot take that an album you've never listened to.
19:22 --> 19:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the most well known album.
19:23 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's overrated.
19:24 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, great.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.
19:26 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good album.
19:27 --> 19:37 [SPEAKER_00]: This is thought to be a masterpiece like their magnum opus hotel California, of course, which is the record that new kid in town that the song we're talking about comes from.
19:37 --> 19:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But it feels less collaborative.
19:40 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's only one Glen Fry song and it's the one we're talking about.
19:44 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_00]: My low key favorite song is actually the Randy Myesmer's song.
19:49 --> 19:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Try and love again.
19:49 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just gonna play a clip of it.
19:51 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Just because I think this is an underappreciated gem.
20:16 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_00]: and part of the deal with him quitting the band is he didn't like the spotlight.
20:21 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: You know the song take it to the limit, right?
20:22 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
20:23 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He was like uncomfortable singing at live, having it be like kind of a single heat.
20:28 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted that song I just played to be a single and he refused and eventually quit the band shortly after, right?
20:34 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: But here's my deal with Hotuck, California.
20:36 --> 20:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Good album.
20:37 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Every song underneath is good, everybody.
20:39 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't get too mad at me.
20:40 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_00]: But aside from it being maybe just less collaborative than the previous record, it's got way too many slow songs.
20:48 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: New kid in town, kind of a slow song, hotel, California.
20:52 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Even the hard rocker victim of love is really slow.
20:56 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically there's one like uptoon, so to speak, life in the fast line.
20:59 --> 21:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything else is just once you get to a waste of time and the last resort, even the Joe Walsh, who should be the hard rocker, his tune is this slow piano ballad.
21:10 --> 21:11 [SPEAKER_00]: a little too much guys.
21:12 --> 21:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm also partial to one of these nights from the year before.
21:16 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great song.
21:17 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great song, but also a good record.
21:19 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's two good Randy songs, a Don Felder Lead vocal.
21:23 --> 21:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very collaborative record in general, and this
22:00 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I see why that's your favorite because it's basically disco.
22:02 --> 22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like BG's adjacent.
22:04 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Was that around the same time as the BG's?
22:06 --> 22:09 [SPEAKER_00]: 75, a little before Saturday in my fever, but disco was rising.
22:09 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:10 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And all these, I love it because like I've made comments on this podcast that my parents were kind of like split.
22:15 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Like so cow people, my mom loved disco.
22:17 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_00]: My dad was like a country rocker.
22:20 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He likes the eagles.
22:20 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like dude, they're playing disco too.
22:23 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You just love a falsetto.
22:24 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You love it.
22:25 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I love a good falsetto with upper structure harmonies because we can talk about everyone knows about that.
22:31 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Also dream hydra.
22:32 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but a really damn good live cover of one of these.
22:35 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_00]: You have it.
22:36 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not well, I probably have it recorded somewhere.
22:38 --> 22:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know.
22:39 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_00]: We did the really high.
22:41 --> 22:47 [SPEAKER_00]: We even had Michael could do the really high week at the end.
22:47 --> 22:48 [SPEAKER_01]: What about other mark?
22:48 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_01]: What did he do?
22:49 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: He he's saying harmonies.
22:51 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, actually, I was the lowest part on that song.
22:54 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_00]: That's just a show.
22:55 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Go show.
22:56 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So it went into Dream Hydro.
22:58 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
22:58 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: We are talking about new kid in town, which just feels like the third biggest song on the record, which hotel California and life in the fast lane, I feel like, but actually, this was a number one hit and life in the fast lane, only hit number 11.
23:14 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Hotel California one record of the year, not the album, the song we know.
23:20 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_00]: This one actually won best arrangement for voices, which I think is very suitable.
23:25 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.
23:25 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lovely vocal arrangement.
23:28 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It did lose album of the year two rumors by Fleetwood Matt, which feels like fair play.
23:34 --> 23:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Best, what was it, a arrangement of vocal, what is that?
23:37 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That arrangement for voices.
23:39 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that still a thing?
23:40 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure it is.
23:41 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, you they don't play that on the TV.
23:43 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the ones that's just fast scrolling or whatever.
23:46 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for the commercial break.
23:47 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_00]: This was written by Henley Fry and JD Souther who also co-wrote some of their big hits like Best of My Love Harding Tonight, also How Long, which is like from there like, what is it?
23:59 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_00]: 2007, basically adult soft rock contemporary, but with one country rocker on it.
24:23 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_00]: here we are.
24:24 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably a breakup song, but also probably about how fickle the music industry is.
24:29 --> 24:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So long preamble.
24:31 --> 24:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Over.
24:32 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing.
24:34 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_00]: like a deep dive on the key scheme.
24:37 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
24:37 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Just to say, not just key changes and focusing on any one key change, but the pattern and order of the key changes that makes the song have a really awesome overall form.
24:48 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
24:49 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I know.
24:50 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:50 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Have a few different options.
24:51 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: But I have a new option on the table.
24:53 --> 24:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
24:54 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is to talk about the pros and cons of creative collaboration from a psychological perspective.
25:01 --> 25:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
25:02 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
25:03 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been a research about that.
25:04 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I think considering I'm going to change gears completely.
25:09 --> 25:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:09 --> 25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've been talking about conflict.
25:11 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been talking about which albums are collaborative.
25:14 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Et cetera.
25:15 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about creative collaboration.
25:17 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds the pros and cons.
25:19 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: The pros and cons.
25:20 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is interesting.
25:21 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: You say that because you wouldn't intuitively think there are cons.
25:26 --> 25:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm saying that as a guy who almost never
25:32 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:33 --> 25:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.
25:34 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_00]: What's up?
25:35 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So, do you prefer generally to work with groups or work alone?
25:40 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I give you had a group from picture it.
25:42 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You're in a college class and you have a, they're like, we're doing a group project.
25:46 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I hate you.
25:47 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:47 --> 25:48 [SPEAKER_01]: What did you hate about them?
25:48 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So I hate a group projects.
25:50 --> 26:01 [SPEAKER_00]: for the same reason, but being on both sides of that reason, which is to say the balance of the workload and people not pulling their way.
26:01 --> 26:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
26:02 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have been both based on my own frankly psychological state at the time.
26:10 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_00]: and lust for life and zeal for my career or education.
26:14 --> 26:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I have both been on the side of the guy who is completely shirking his responsibilities and getting called out by the group, dude, this is due and you haven't done any work.
26:22 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But I've also been the person doing way too much work and wishing my group would pull the weight or honestly just kind of wishing I could do it by myself because come on guys, don't be like me two years ago.
26:33 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Be like me now, right?
26:35 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Going back to even when I was a kid, I think I didn't generally love group.
26:40 --> 26:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a very specific context.
26:41 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's different from like a creative.
26:44 --> 26:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, like a band.
26:46 --> 26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But even then that's complicated.
26:47 --> 26:48 [SPEAKER_00]: We can talk about that.
26:48 --> 26:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But Well, there's a difference for what I don't like group work.
26:52 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't work well with others.
26:54 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I like to work alone.
26:55 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I see the benefit of group work in terms of creativity and we'll talk about that.
27:00 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But as far as me, I like to work at my own pace.
27:03 --> 27:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't like having to wait for people, if I'm inspired.
27:07 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, locked in to do something.
27:09 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to do it and get it done.
27:11 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And just have to pause my creative flow to wait for someone else's contribution.
27:16 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of gets in the way for me.
27:17 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
27:18 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have always kind of been like that.
27:20 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine.
27:21 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like partnership.
27:22 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you and I collaborate fairly well.
27:24 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But if there was a third or fourth person in the mix of their decision making, it would be frustrating.
27:30 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's come back to the kind of career.
27:32 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I consider this a creative project.
27:34 --> 27:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not in the same way that it being in a band as similarly, doing that as far as the work thing,
27:46 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I think although I expressed a distaste for it, I guess there's like two reasons to do that if you're an instructor.
27:53 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: One is the amount of work needed is too much for one person so we need a team to do it.
27:58 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:59 --> 28:06 [SPEAKER_00]: That was what would lead to bad things because if people are not pulling their weight, well then it falls on people unfairly.
28:06 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But the other reason is to force you to learn how to work with people.
28:09 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
28:10 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly like
28:12 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_00]: the moment where I got called out.
28:14 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe called in.
28:15 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they were nice enough to call me in when I was in college and that polyside class on NGOs that I was in.
28:21 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh gosh.
28:22 --> 28:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Mark, you're not pulling your way because it was a really important learning experience for me.
28:28 --> 28:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was never going to let things ever go that bad again.
28:32 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And it sucks for my group mates,
28:36 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: if part of the goal was to teach people how to be good citizens of a workforce mission accomplished at the end of that project by being called out by them right yeah you know in the same as true like how to deal a few years later to deal with my frustration that one of my group mates isn't pulling their way well you got to learn to suck it up and talk to them about it or do nothing right and that was a skill I needed to learn yeah and so
29:02 --> 29:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Putting aside creative, there's lessons from creative collaboration, too, but I think there are pros just in like learning to work with humans that are pretty important.
29:11 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, too, in our education system, we often say, oh, get into working groups and even your words, like you're forced to figure it out, which I think is a flaw in turning people off of group work is the language around it because a lot of times we assume that people just know how to work in groups.
29:28 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: get in a group and do this project and kids today don't really know they need it to be broken down step by step.
29:36 --> 29:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I find that teams and classes need like this is a everyone picks a job and this these I'm giving you the responsibilities of each group member and everyone's personally accountable for those responsibilities like we need to be teaching how to work in groups like
29:54 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: that isn't for me that is teaching psychology but for you to have to sit down for a music class and say like okay now we're going to do a group dynamics lesson, doesn't really fit.
30:03 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you do group work in your class?
30:05 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I do.
30:06 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the reason it to force them so speak to develop collegiality or is it because the task requires so many people?
30:14 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think it is important to embed the soft skills of working in a group, so in the field they can be successful, because I find now students are very insular and they would rather just drink their fancy coffee and listen to me talk.
30:30 --> 30:35 [SPEAKER_01]: and it's very important for them to share their ideas and a lot of I teach really large classes.
30:36 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe someone doesn't want to raise their hands in a 60-person class, but if they're in a small group, they'll contribute more.
30:42 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
30:42 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's really important to like develop those skills.
30:46 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a really fun vocabulary that I can teach you when you talk about the kid in the group that isn't doing anything.
30:54 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the slacker, which is what you might say,
31:00 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_00]: the social law for the like, that's a social dynamics psychologists term.
31:04 --> 31:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's like the first class I ever taught was group dynamics.
31:07 --> 31:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like would chuckle at that term, the social law for okay.
31:11 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So that one person in the group that's just like not doing it.
31:14 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:14 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_01]: The other team members have to pick up the slack on it.
31:17 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I do group work too, but it's sort of in a different sense.
31:22 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, obviously, the ensemble I direct, it's all group work.
31:25 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't have, in my, let's say my music theory class.
31:30 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_00]: A analysis project presentation, no, but it's performances.
31:33 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you have to get together and rehearse.
31:36 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to read this music and play an instrument all you sing.
31:39 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's a skills thing, but it's...
31:41 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite literally the skill of I need you.
31:46 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost not about the group dynamics, I mean it is, but it's, but I need you to be able to perform your part while other people are performing parts that are different from yours as a means to demonstrate your independence at your part and your ability to hear the other parts and still stay on your own part.
32:01 --> 32:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But it creates these weird dynamics that I over here, right?
32:05 --> 32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know that I'm in this case, everybody's got their skill sets and you've got your so-to-speak voice majors in the class and then you've got your percussionist maybe who can't sing in tune at all.
32:18 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying, hey, everybody in three weeks, you got to perform this piece for me in a group.
32:23 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Find a group.
32:24 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that toned-f guy, for whatever, is gonna, and I don't believe anybody's toned-f.
32:29 --> 32:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But like someone who really, very, very, very few people are.
32:32 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody really struggles to sing and tune, is gonna be a part of some as a group.
32:37 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_00]: and possibly make it a lot harder for them to be successful.
32:41 --> 32:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But in my head, I'm like, well, I'm obviously grading you all separately and I tell them that.
32:46 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I've seen over the years is like, it's not that person that struggles to find the group.
32:52 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:52 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It's...
32:53 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I just a few semesters go observed, you know, because I'm like, for on break between the long class, that class is a lab class.
33:00 --> 33:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So we meet for two and a half hours basically, we're on break as they're like, oh, they just got the summit.
33:05 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to form their little groups of four.
33:07 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I overheard someone just be told no.
33:10 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:11 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not because that person can't sing or play the piano or whatever.
33:13 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's because that person.
33:14 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They're in charge.
33:15 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, commit show up to a rehearsal won't, you know, like, people will tolerate the person who can't play well in their group.
33:22 --> 33:23 [SPEAKER_00]: If that person's going to show up.
33:23 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So you let them, you let them pick their own group.
33:25 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I do.
33:26 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not.
33:27 --> 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I never do.
33:28 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I do for that because I know.
33:30 --> 33:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It's tricky.
33:31 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really tricky to let them pick their own groups.
33:33 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It creates this in-group, out-group thing.
33:36 --> 33:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a kid in class that's already kind of an ally or really introverted in shy, like that can bring up a lot of things that are on comfy, I'm not saying that every classroom needs to be like a brave space.
33:47 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But I never let students pick their own groups.
33:51 --> 33:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I have themselves selected in groups based on topics they want to cover.
33:54 --> 33:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I write fit the groups based on the personalities in the group.
33:58 --> 34:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So the way I could do it is like, okay, well, who are the keyboardists?
34:01 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, who are the people who sing really high?
34:02 --> 34:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you each can't be the same group.
34:04 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But like fundamentally, so much of being a music major is like, hey, and out, like, they're hanging out.
34:09 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, who do you want to spend an hour in the practice room as well?
34:12 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the great, the interesting thing, and maybe I can convince you just what your strategy is because in terms of creative collaboration, I think we're most primed to share creative ideas with people that we don't know with strangers.
34:25 --> 34:27 [SPEAKER_01]: because people that are interesting.
34:27 --> 34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that people that we're friends with, they already have a schema in their head, but what we're going to say and how we're going to act and what our vibe's going to be creatively, that it doesn't encourage outside the box thinking, you go along to the path of least resistance.
34:41 --> 34:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you know, okay, we're a group, we all love folk music, that's what we're going to do.
34:45 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But when you have different styles and
34:51 --> 35:09 [SPEAKER_01]: you have to mediate and you have to have conversations and dialogue to brainstorm new ideas to include everyone's point of view and that traditionally like according to research anyway helps stretch the creative process because you're forced to think of something different, you're forced to think outside the box because of the members of the group.
35:10 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that dynamic persists with professionals.
35:13 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think like even my band, for example, there are people who write songs in that band.
35:19 --> 35:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I think probably all of us probably can or do write songs, but like...
35:26 --> 35:41 [SPEAKER_00]: the roles are that only certain people do and I'm one of them like maybe Brian would if we were starting a new band with the other people Brian our base play would be like yeah I wrote a song but for us it's just oh I sing harmonies and play bass like it's just that's his role
35:42 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_00]: after a few years, you fall into that role.
35:44 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, somebody might rise to the occasion with strangers and show skills that they're not normally sharing or not normally sharing with folks.
35:55 --> 35:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And it might help them develop more, like say,
35:59 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: a band made like never brings forward his writing in your band because that's someone else's job and everyone's staying in their lane to like keep the piece or keep the creative flow whatever but that person lands in a band that no one else has ever written a song and they're like hey well I have this notebook for the songs like let's try it out and that helps them grow and develop because they have their forced to and it just helps push people outside their comforts
36:26 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_01]: This offering and a lot of research about creativity and groups talks about that talks about the diverse perspectives that can come up when you're working groups creatively that you're not just in your head thinking about you have other people bring new ideas and background and specialized skills to the table.
36:43 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And saying, like, hey, I have, I know we're not talking about incorporating this element, but I'm very good at this element.
36:48 --> 36:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So can we find a way to work it in because I need my grade booster.
36:52 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want this product to be better.
36:54 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something to think about.
36:57 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe I can shift your pedagogy.
36:59 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I want to do it that way.
37:01 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I would rather do it that way.
37:03 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of fun to like make the group.
37:05 --> 37:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I, the problem?
37:06 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, my college has really terrifyingly bad problems with attendance.
37:13 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:13 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So a little bit of it is like, if I'm assigning the groups, I have to kind of treat everybody as an equal, whereas when they're picking their groups, they look and they go, well, who actually shows up, let's make the groups with the people who actually show up.
37:25 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:25 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:25 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you have to treat everyone as an equal when you make the groups.
37:28 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
37:28 --> 37:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I build groups in class, I'll have them give them a work sheet.
37:32 --> 37:33 [SPEAKER_01]: They self-select on topic they want to cover.
37:34 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I have them right, like, what is your strength in group work?
37:37 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are like, I love speaking in front of class.
37:40 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'll talk in front of people all to have no problem with it.
37:43 --> 37:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And other people say, I hate public speaking, but I'm really good at research.
37:47 --> 37:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Or I hate public speaking, but I love, like,
37:49 --> 37:52 [SPEAKER_01]: editing and formatting presentations so they look cool.
37:53 --> 38:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So I make sure that not all the extraverts are in one group, but not all the creative people are, I like spread them out, even if they're not in their first choice of topic.
38:02 --> 38:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So if, if I were to do that, thanks for shopping some, you know, it's it's August and some of the starts shortly.
38:11 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we're dying of that.
38:13 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
38:14 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_00]: If you were doing what I'm doing, so it's a group performance.
38:17 --> 38:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you, assuming like, okay, like, I have to have a diversity of skill set in the sense that like, well, okay, I don't want for pianists in this group, because they have to play instruments.
38:25 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So spread that out.
38:26 --> 38:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But would you have like the three or four best singers all be a group and let them just rise to the occasion and do a bang or job singing this, whatever song?
38:35 --> 38:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Or would you do a draft?
38:37 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, the strongest singer in the weakest singer will be in the same group.
38:41 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
38:41 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, because there's learning benefits in both approaches, I think.
38:45 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
38:46 --> 38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So love the Gotski talked about proximity learning.
38:48 --> 38:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We haven't really discussed that too much on Mike, but that's another episode.
38:52 --> 39:00 [SPEAKER_01]: This idea that you learn you find equilibrium between different skill sets and usually the lower skill sets gets brought up.
39:01 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_01]: to the higher skill set, and that's how you learn through being around people that are better than you.
39:06 --> 39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You like see what they're doing in copy it.
39:08 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I would do in your specific situation.
39:12 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I would pick songs or have them pick songs together, if they're like just doing performance, and I'd have them rank choice the songs.
39:20 --> 39:24 [SPEAKER_01]: that like I wanted, these are my top four in this order.
39:24 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I know it's a lot.
39:26 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's not what this is.
39:27 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like writing.
39:28 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm transcribed to piece of music for them.
39:31 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They have to learn to play and sing it in harmony with each other.
39:35 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:35 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Rick, we can't rank like I need to control for a how difficult the song is play and be the amount of time it takes to do the transcription in the middle of a semester when they're all one of them chooses some progress on and then they or I have just inherited 20 hours of work trying to transfer it right so what I would do in your I would split them all up by skill set and have you know have one of each in a group.
39:59 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:00 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And then also account for absences, like if you know people are like perpetually absent, don't put them on the same group, have a backup for them.
40:08 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're left them, I'll be in the same group and see what happens.
40:11 --> 40:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And flail, right?
40:12 --> 40:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the truth is someone might just not show up or just not even assign them a group.
40:16 --> 40:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because the time you come, I'll put you in a group.
40:19 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like you plot your the swing.
40:21 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:21 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're over needs you.
40:23 --> 40:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's part of it because I don't let them perform if they haven't rehearsed with the group.
40:26 --> 40:26 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing.
40:26 --> 40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: If someone shows up and they haven't practiced, I don't let them do.
40:28 --> 40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: You are alternative assignments.
40:30 --> 40:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You probably don't to those people.
40:32 --> 40:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything, everything is an alternative assignment.
40:35 --> 41:01 [SPEAKER_00]: In a class like this, you've got music theory, written homework, you have site reading videos, you have to record, you have the group performances, you have your training practice on the app that we subscribe to, you have in-class dictation quizzes, you have a presentation, like I've diversified the instructional and assessment methodology so much, like there's no alternative, if you can't swing one particular thing, do well in the other things to
41:01 --> 41:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do you ever have students that have accommodations for performance accommodations?
41:07 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I have students with accommodations every single semester.
41:09 --> 41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But with that specific, like group presentations.
41:12 --> 41:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't do group presentations.
41:13 --> 41:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Or just like, but that's what performance is.
41:16 --> 41:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do you have ever have students listen to this one that have accommodations that they can't perform in front of people?
41:24 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I have not had that.
41:26 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I have had students that are deaf in my music class.
41:28 --> 41:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
41:29 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's two a certain extent self-selected.
41:31 --> 41:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:32 --> 41:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that that's my question.
41:34 --> 41:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you wouldn't really be a music major.
41:36 --> 41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You couldn't perform in front of people.
41:37 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It could happen.
41:38 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:38 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I have had people with paralyzing social anxiety, but they can't perform and stuff, but they don't get a accommodation for that.
41:46 --> 41:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It's considered like, just have this conversation because our state, but also I think the whole country has had to be more systematic in our compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act.
41:58 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So like our syllabi, I'll have to be more accessible, and I think this is a great thing.
42:02 --> 42:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But we had someone comment from the state and give kind of a talk and try to make everybody not free because you're a public state school and you don't maybe we do on good faith and really follow a DA, but we're not we're mandated because we're not.
42:18 --> 42:18 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to prove it.
42:19 --> 42:19 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to demonstrate it.
42:20 --> 42:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And I went up to the presenter and was like, what do I do?
42:24 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they were saying, like, I teach an online class, right, and it's a music reading class.
42:28 --> 42:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were making a big deal about how and I understand.
42:31 --> 42:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to have descriptive tech.
42:32 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Unless it's decorative, you have to have, if you have an important image, if you have a painting of them,
42:38 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_00]: you know a Monet cathedral or whatever you have to have descriptive text that if someone who is vision impaired is on that page it will say a painting of you know the engulfed cathedral by Monet showing a colored data you would have whatever you have.
42:55 --> 43:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like if I have a quiz or whatever on my online music reading class.
43:01 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_00]: and the image is a G-cliff with an A-sharp, and the question is, what is that pitch?
43:07 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Does my descriptive text have to be?
43:09 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an A-sharp.
43:11 --> 43:23 [SPEAKER_00]: My descriptive text almost in a reading class, the descriptive text, because if we consider it almost images what I'm providing, gives away the answers, and the reason I bring this up is he was kind of like
43:23 --> 43:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, with some field, it's just like, and he gave a bunch of examples of like certain medical fields, you kind of can't be in perfect compliance, a visual arts class, certain visual arts class cannot be fully accessible to somebody who is blind.
43:36 --> 43:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the standards, if I had someone with extreme social anxiety that prohibited them from performing, and they were in my performance class, the law would not apply in the same way that it would in other content.
43:48 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Now in my music theory class,
43:50 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily imply that performance is a key part.
43:54 --> 43:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that student could have an accommodation.
43:56 --> 43:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the same.
43:57 --> 44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Because what we operate under is the mantra of is it a reasonable accommodation.
44:02 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And in my opinion, a performance music class, when you have a performance exempt accommodation, that is not a reasonable accommodation.
44:10 --> 44:20 [SPEAKER_01]: there's no way that you can iterate your syllabus and your assignments still meet the learning objectives of that class and honor that accommodation.
44:20 --> 44:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it goes not just us but to the support staff and stuff like that at the college because plenty of my students every semester are taking their final exam in the disability's support office because they get a quiet environment.
44:32 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_00]: They get to use extra scratch paper.
44:33 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_00]: They get 150% time to complete the exam except there's a dictation and a sight singing
44:42 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I am playing the piano and they are writing down what they hear and then they come to me one on one and they sing for me And I give them a assessment based on that they can't do that and they can't do that because how They're not playing play at it.
44:55 --> 44:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the disability's office Do they have a non-staff pianist in your disability?
44:59 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They do not.
45:00 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so
45:01 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_00]: everybody in the disability's office is like, all right, do that component of the exam and send them over here.
45:06 --> 45:16 [SPEAKER_00]: There's never ever been anybody trying to say no because it would not be a reasonable accommodation to accommodate having a pianist that will play it slower or something like that.
45:16 --> 45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
45:17 --> 45:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can't change the assessment.
45:20 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You can only change the environment that assessment takes place in.
45:24 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_01]: for what I understand of A.A. and the combinations and I feel like I got it.
45:28 --> 45:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And I do a lot of work with that.
45:30 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And also there's like usually the types of learning challenges those students have that cause them to be given that accommodation.
45:37 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
45:38 --> 45:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't relate to like those students maybe as good or better than the other students at these kinds of things.
45:43 --> 45:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's not it's it might be you know if it's a reading or a processing thing that may or may not apply to how well they can sing.
45:50 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting too, because in my department in psychology, we have a higher than average rate of mental health accommodations and learning differences in our population.
46:02 --> 46:04 [SPEAKER_01]: My guess is music is probably the same thing.
46:04 --> 46:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That you probably have more depression anxiety, learning challenges than some other.
46:09 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_00]: department and it data.
46:11 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's really.
46:12 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but definitely seems.
46:14 --> 46:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It just seems like that's the type.
46:16 --> 46:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we also have.
46:17 --> 46:21 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a higher incidence of students on the spectrum.
46:21 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think possibly also.
46:23 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also like your college.
46:33 --> 46:34 [SPEAKER_01]: it makes sense to me.
46:35 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And when we talk about accommodations, and we're going to bring it back on topic here.
46:39 --> 46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're going to get back to collaboration.
46:40 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we're going to talk about the song.
46:41 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to happen real quick, right?
46:43 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_01]: When we talk about fostering creative collaboration, all of this conversation we're having is about establishing psychological safety.
46:51 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So people can feel open to collaborate creatively.
46:55 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
46:56 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard to collaborate creatively with people that you have drama with that you don't trust that you feel like are going to backstab you and take you out to dinner and then steal your song.
47:05 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
47:05 --> 47:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard to continue to be open and trusting enough and vulnerable enough in that environment to share creative thoughts.
47:15 --> 47:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And that moment when you feel psychologically shut off, you're more interested in finding like convergent solutions, right, solutions that just getting to the goal, right, instead of developing divergent thinking, where you workshop and brainstorm and maybe there is no one solution.
47:36 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_01]: There's multiple solutions and you just have to find the one that's the right fit.
47:40 --> 47:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think in our collaboration,
47:43 --> 47:51 [SPEAKER_01]: If we do have conflict, it's because I'm more apt to lean towards convergent solutions.
47:51 --> 47:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's make a decision and go with it and just move on and you prefer and it's healthier.
47:57 --> 48:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I think to dwell in the divergence and brainstorm and come and iterate more than I tend to.
48:03 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you agree with that?
48:04 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's kind of news to me that we have conflict.
48:07 --> 48:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, it's not complex.
48:08 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_01]: That's such a strong word, but like not disagreements either.
48:12 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, when we don't agree to the first idea, and I'm always like, those are great ideas.
48:17 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just do this.
48:18 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
48:19 --> 48:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just, because I like to just check off the box and move on, just my nature and you're more trained to say, okay, like, well, let's workshop it a little bit more.
48:27 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's a little do or die like professionally, I'm trained to try to like be divergent and like exactly do a new thing or or no one wants to hear what you're you're creating.
48:37 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But also if I can make everything all about my own social anxieties or whatever, I think I don't do well with feeling like I'm not bringing value.
48:47 --> 48:55 [SPEAKER_00]: When I think of the jobs I have an enjoyed, it's not because the pay was bad or I was doing I was, I mean, I worked at Taco Bell as ice cooler.
48:55 --> 49:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I have had some jobs that weren't great jobs, but put the meat right in bags and just like boil the bag, like hang it from you'll put them in the bags, they come in the bags, you take them out of the bag.
49:05 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_01]: My good friend and high school worked at Taco Bell, and he took me into the kitchen.
49:09 --> 49:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll never, I'm never eating it because I've seen those bags.
49:12 --> 49:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So the parts, the times when I haven't when I felt most uncomfortable and some of these were even like sort of quote good jobs is when I feel like I'm phoning it in when I feel like I'm not bringing my a game when I feel like I'm not attending to like I just spent way too much time revising one of my Gen Ed classes and completely rebuilding like what my resources were because I had it started to feel really long in the tooth and I felt like I was phoning it in too much.
49:42 --> 49:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was making my grading get foo phoned in.
49:44 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I was giving too much like great job kind of feedback without actually like even like referencing the rubric.
49:50 --> 49:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and I'm just constitutionally uncomfortable with the ECP.
49:56 --> 49:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is a problem.
49:59 --> 50:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's from like just training of wool.
50:01 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm of course I've always got to innovate, but also like season three is coming soon.
50:05 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If I felt like season three, we were just going to do the exact same thing.
50:08 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, oh, I feel uncomfortable now.
50:10 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's my own hand in a little bit.
50:12 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Comfortability makes you uncomfortable.
50:15 --> 50:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes me feel like, and this is a toxic part of our society, like it makes me feel like I'm not working hard enough.
50:20 --> 50:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that you what I'm hearing is that you like divergent thinking, you like sharing a ton of ideas, because in some way it proves your intrinsic and extrinsic value.
50:34 --> 50:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you don't share a ton of ideas, if you go with the first easiest idea, then you don't feel worthy.
50:39 --> 50:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:40 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's your right.
50:42 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
50:43 --> 50:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And you, I'm not.
50:45 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I always feel we're adults actually enough to not need that.
50:49 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's okay because the dynamic is that I'm usually coming up with the initial episode topic, usually doing the kind of pre-prep more.
51:01 --> 51:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And then telling you, here's what I think we should do next.
51:04 --> 51:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean like the broad picture things that I'm doing all the decisions, but you're fundamentally doing more reacting to me than I'm doing reactivating.
51:11 --> 51:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the need that it needs to be that way logistically because you need to do less- Yeah, you need to like, you need to know going in so you can have things queued up.
51:23 --> 51:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But also, dispositionally, like personality-wise, if it wasn't that way, the difference you're describing between conversion and divergent ways of collaborating or
51:33 --> 51:34 [SPEAKER_00]: finding solutions.
51:34 --> 51:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We would maybe come into more tension there because as the person reacting, it would be too late to be divergent maybe.
51:42 --> 51:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
51:42 --> 51:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so too.
51:44 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like I was phoning it in every time improvising some dumb music.
51:48 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_01]: No, and I think that that relationship takes a lot of trust.
51:52 --> 51:58 [SPEAKER_01]: like I have a lot of trust in myself, but I'm always going to find something to talk about.
51:58 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always going to be able to react to you in a way that adds value to the conversation.
52:03 --> 52:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I maybe when we first started, I would over prepare and get really in my head about that.
52:08 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why our early episodes feel kind of jammed and forced.
52:12 --> 52:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And our later episodes might feel a little bit more organic.
52:15 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But also- It's an hour and we should start talking about the song.
52:18 --> 52:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it makes make it a sidetracked.
52:19 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But this idea that before we started this, like, semi-professional relationship in this podcast project, we had a existing relationship.
52:27 --> 52:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I knew your disposition before we went into it.
52:30 --> 52:36 [SPEAKER_01]: If I had never met you and we entered this process together, it would have been a lot more challenging for both of us.
52:36 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd never met me, you would have been nervous that like, there's girls that show up with like 12 drinks in our hand.
52:41 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
52:42 --> 52:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Like a pen.
52:43 --> 52:44 [SPEAKER_00]: crowning up to the nearest 12th.
52:44 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
52:45 --> 53:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, you know, and I have been in creative collaborations where there is that dynamic between one of us is more the prepper, one of us is more, let's constantly do something new and the other one is a little more like you and hasn't gone well or it's at least led to conflict.
53:04 --> 53:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think part of what's different is I've been through those experiences already.
53:08 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_00]: and I know what about myself could lead to me getting really frustrated or me making the other person go crazy because I'm being overly like, but what about this, what about this, right?
53:20 --> 53:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've learned over the years how to interact with other people in a way that makes a possible creative collaboration.
53:28 --> 53:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But I mentioned it earlier, like, I don't usually go right songs.
53:31 --> 53:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a few times, but I sort of just feel with that skill set.
53:36 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I would rather come up with the thing and then let everybody do their thing to make it turn into a performable entity and I enjoy the collaboration of a performance a lot like I would not want to go I don't I'm not really a solo open like my guy I want to be in a band I love it.
53:52 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But sitting around a room coming up with ideas and jamming out a song and writing, I haven't done that in years and it just feels more foreign to me.
54:00 --> 54:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because that also, that process, you need to be in a certain flow state and like, I, you could equate to like a meditative state where you're just like hyper focused.
54:11 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And I imagine for you trying to get into that state collaboratively would be a distraction.
54:18 --> 54:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine for you like you want to just like lock in and write it and then they can iterate around the initial thought but you want to have the first pass.
54:27 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's it's awesome that you know that that works for you and our students don't know that yet right I learned it while they were learning right or like the same era when we expect that same level of creative collaboration with a 20 year old that's never done it before it's it's a flaw we need to offer them grace and offer them just a sure.
54:47 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_01]: and say like okay someone shared an idea that you don't like how do you react to that idea right and how can you incorporate it so getting very sidetracked here on this eagles tune but when we talk about too many cooks in the kitchen I think that that's something that comes up a lot when we think about creative collaboration like
55:06 --> 55:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you do need to fall into your comfortable roles to make a successful product, but also sometimes those roles can get really tired and creatives can get kind of bored doing the same thing over and over again.
55:18 --> 55:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So the Eagles were smart to offer variety, but they're also layering on a lot of psychological tension that's impeding that creativity.
55:26 --> 55:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we see that later in their catalog.
55:28 --> 55:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
55:29 --> 55:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I got.
55:30 --> 55:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot but interesting.
55:33 --> 55:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, fascinating for us at least the conversation.
55:36 --> 55:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Listeners, we just talked for I cut it all out.
55:38 --> 55:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know what we just did.
55:42 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_00]: They just heard the thing where I played all the vocalists for and that was 40 minutes ago.
55:46 --> 55:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's fine.
55:47 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think
55:49 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm guessing some of these tensions emerged early in the band and we're not addressed in a healthy productive way and just built and built and built and built and lead to a breakup in 1980 and then a reunion later and then the firing of somebody in the 2000s and a few people quitting along the way because maybe some of this could have been controlled in a more effective kind of pro social way but there's a lot of money involved.
56:18 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_00]: which none of the things that we're talking about, whether it's our podcast or our classes for bands I've been in ever past.
56:26 --> 56:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, funny, ever past.
56:28 --> 56:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, funny, funny.
56:29 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Like my decision about, well, I kind of prefer to write songs alone is totally about the vibes and all that.
56:36 --> 56:41 [SPEAKER_00]: What if it was also, well, whoever writes the song gets the big royalty.
56:41 --> 56:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's like a whole different ball game where it's not just, oh, what's going to lead to the most comfortable creative output?
56:49 --> 56:53 [SPEAKER_00]: What's going to lead to money being more equitably exchange?
56:53 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a totally different dynamic than I kind of never dealt with.
56:56 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It never even crossed my mind.
56:58 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think of him with students a lot, how like, in groups like you shouldn't give everyone in the group the same grade, because some people won't do anything, and some people will do everything because they need the A.
57:08 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's better to grade individually.
57:10 --> 57:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's different and songwriting.
57:11 --> 57:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be better if the whole group got an equal cut no matter what.
57:16 --> 57:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be better for creativity.
57:18 --> 57:21 [SPEAKER_00]: This came up a little bit when we were talking to Chris Fathalius.
57:22 --> 57:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they cut everybody in.
57:24 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And my last band cut people into like the bass player didn't write any songs, but like he was there when we hashed out the songs.
57:31 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Not everybody got an equal cut.
57:33 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Even then, and I don't know that Chris was saying that in punchline, everybody literally like if someone shows up with a set of lyrics, the drummer who comes up with the drum part, maybe gets some share of that, but I'm not sure they're getting an equal.
57:46 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Why are lyrics worth more than the drum part in the scaffolding of a band?
57:51 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm bringing that so off top, by today.
57:52 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's all right.
57:53 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Because copyright law says the only thing you can copyright are lyrics, melody, and in some cases, essential arrangement components.
58:00 --> 58:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So literally the drum part is not copyrightable at all, so that's why.
58:04 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So the drummer contributing lyric ideas are, why doesn't the tune do this?
58:08 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's have this happen.
58:10 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_00]: That's different.
58:10 --> 58:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But literally coming up with my guitar part to play along with a band according to copyright law, I have actually written nothing.
58:18 --> 58:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It's only when I start contributing, I guess, essential guitar parts that iconic and defining to the song could work, but otherwise melody and lyrics would be the only thing, not even really the core progression.
58:30 --> 58:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So according to like copyright law in the US, the drummer deserves nothing if all they're doing is the drums.
58:37 --> 58:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is something different between the person who not all lifts of songwriting are equal.
58:42 --> 58:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Like someone who writes one line in the bridge is not doing the same thing as the person who wrote every note of the rest of the song, right?
58:49 --> 58:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know, but that but from a band dynamic, sometimes it's worth sharing it equally maybe, right?
58:55 --> 58:56 [SPEAKER_01]: For like the vibe.
58:56 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_00]: for the vibe.
58:57 --> 59:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But I've already mentioned when we were talking to Chris like my band like voluntarily was like, why don't we just have the songwriting be whoever primarily wrote the song?
59:05 --> 59:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:05 --> 59:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sitting here as the guy who wrote almost every song on our record.
59:09 --> 59:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, really?
59:10 --> 59:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
59:10 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You all don't want cut into this in case one of these songs pops off on TikTok.
59:33 --> 59:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:34 --> 59:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:35 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So he changes several.
59:37 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not not key changes.
59:39 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no.
59:40 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a reason this is the second to last main line episode of this season.
59:45 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because we're building on a knowledge.
59:47 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
59:47 --> 59:49 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to learn about pivot chord modulations.
59:49 --> 59:50 [SPEAKER_00]: We did that.
59:50 --> 59:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But we did that already.
59:51 --> 59:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I want to talk about is what's called a key scheme.
59:55 --> 59:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
59:55 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the map of one key going to another key and how
01:00:01 --> 01:00:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's hear it again, just to remind what we're talking about here.
01:00:04 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been days.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It has a really cool key scheme.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_00]: There are patterns, and there's a relationship between the keys that's pretty cool, and that's what I wanna talk about.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So, starts in the keybie, goes to C-Sharp Minor, or depending on how you consider one of the chords, C-Sharp Dorian mode.
01:00:42 --> 01:00:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I know about that, Dorian, Lydian, Mixolidian, yes.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Think of Dorian as if a minor scale goes like,
01:00:54 --> 01:01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: A Dorian mode would go, da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da
01:01:12 --> 01:01:18 [SPEAKER_00]: up to G major, and then down to E minor slash E Dorian, and then ending on E major.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everybody, Mark here during the edit.
01:01:21 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_00]: We do go through Key by Key pretty slowly, but if you want to see that full key scheme right now, check the show notes.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Seven key changes in the song.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot.
01:01:31 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And probably most or all of them you would notice because they are mostly pivot chord modulations.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember what a pivot chord modulation is?
01:01:41 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I do.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the tunnel between two chords that connect them, that you can easily shift.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Tunnel between two keys.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Two keys that like you find a note in one key that's also in another key and you just like kind of shift a chord.
01:01:56 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:01:57 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I get it in my head and then you like just shift in a way that's like
01:02:01 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_01]: noticeable, but like organic too, because there's consistency.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so like C major, G major, both of those keys have the chord A minor.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the sixth chord in C, but it's the two chord in G. So if you play A minor in between those two keys, it can act as transitional material.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It creates a tunnel.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the tunnel.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: We like that.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So love the tunnel.
01:02:23 --> 01:02:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But this song has a key scheme that is pretty cool because of certain patterns they use.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So before we dive in, let's us into a famous influence on 1970s country rock Wolfgang, Amadeus Mozart.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:40 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Sonata number 16 K545.
01:02:40 --> 01:02:42 [SPEAKER_00]: This is from 1788.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:50 [SPEAKER_00]: of the Sonata, which means the opening section.
01:02:50 --> 01:02:55 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Ingrid Hebler, Austrian pianist who passed in 2023 playing.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:16 [UNKNOWN]: Thanks for watching!
01:03:26 --> 01:03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's hard.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like pretty good.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The Zart?
01:03:29 --> 01:03:30 [SPEAKER_00]: The Zart?
01:03:30 --> 01:03:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the Zart.
01:03:31 --> 01:03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, some good stuff.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that started in C major.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But a Sonata, it's a piano Sonata.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fundamentally an argument between keys.
01:03:42 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like we're going to pull away from the Tonic key, the C major in this case.
01:03:46 --> 01:03:49 [SPEAKER_00]: But who wins in the end in the Sonata, the Tonic key?
01:03:49 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So a Sonata is like a journey away and then coming home.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So that section started in C major.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: but ended in G. So the key change went up a fifth.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then a bunch of weird stuff happens, but a sonata will almost always return to the home key.
01:04:15 --> 01:04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is the end part of the sonata called the recapitulation.
01:04:25 --> 01:04:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is like the beginning.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And the key of C, right?
01:04:35 --> 01:04:38 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for watching.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_00]: If you really cool to see that like in the concert hall, you probably heard go to a few masks and just show up for the, you know, recital someone's going to probably play it.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, that's one.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a little, it's not quite scary to have in, but some of those Mozart sonatas are a little bit like no piano teacher is going to assign that to their college student because it's too overdone.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the high schoolers will play it.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, maybe even though it's plenty hard.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me talk about what's going on.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so beginning of the piece we go from C to G we go up a fifth, right?
01:05:27 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: They want the piece to end in C, but they want that same move.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Wolfgang wants that same move up a fifth.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So what note is five below C?
01:05:39 --> 01:05:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Scountdown.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Use your fingers.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Excluding C. Including C, thank you, yes.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_01]: B, A, G, F. F. Okay.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So what does he do?
01:05:49 --> 01:05:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He starts that passage in C, but then he goes to F. Why?
01:05:53 --> 01:05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Because then he can jump up a fish that's the tail.
01:05:56 --> 01:05:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:05:57 --> 01:05:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of.
01:05:58 --> 01:06:08 [SPEAKER_00]: He got there via pivocords, but yeah, that way you can end where you started by following the original pattern if that makes sense up a fifth is the game So we're gonna end on sea.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I better start a fifth below that is what's happening in this song
01:06:14 --> 01:06:15 [SPEAKER_00]: This song is not a senada.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:22 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not me trying to say it's a rondo like boys to matter whatever, but it's doing a similar thing.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It finds an odd way back home by following the same patterns.
01:06:26 --> 01:06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So this song though starts in very much in the key of E. Here's the intro.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:52 [SPEAKER_00]: very nice soft control nice.
01:06:52 --> 01:07:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, another thing that's cool about the collaboration of this band despite the fights is they don't usually hire a bunch of studio musicians for these albums like they're spread out there like Henley Androm's Randy is playing Gita Rolmihikano, you know, the Mariachi instrument, essentially.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Felters playing the electric guitars Glenn is on the acoustic, but then Gatar God Joel Walsh is playing the electric piano.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:18 [SPEAKER_00]: One of us has to play that keyboard part.
01:07:18 --> 01:07:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it'll be me, right?
01:07:20 --> 01:07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: As opposed to bringing in some...
01:07:23 --> 01:07:26 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to because they all have like very skill sets.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:27 [SPEAKER_01]: They can all do a little bit of everything.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's cool.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's cool.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have a nice country rock core progression in the verse in E-Mager.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:35 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of two, five, one moves.
01:07:35 --> 01:07:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So second core, the fifth core, the one core, which actually is a very common cadence, like you hear that at the end of a phrase often, even in jazz.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is what that sounds like.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:53 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the 25 to five.
01:07:55 --> 01:07:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Great expectations.
01:07:57 --> 01:07:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Ever thought it's watching you.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get that in our ear because those moves of 25 to five.
01:08:05 --> 01:08:07 [SPEAKER_00]: 25 to five is going to be really common.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's E major me playing piano to five.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:15 [SPEAKER_00]: and then ending on one.
01:08:16 --> 01:08:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we're also going to hear four to five, which would be instead of the F sharp chord, as the two would be the A chord to the B. I like that.
01:08:29 --> 01:08:31 [SPEAKER_00]: A little simpler, a little cleaner, right?
01:08:32 --> 01:08:34 [SPEAKER_00]: This song uses the two a little more commonly though.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And then as the verse continues, it kind of restarts, but it ends very different.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the coolest parts of the song to make.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:05 [SPEAKER_00]: new key.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what's wild?
01:09:07 --> 01:09:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You're teaching me things because now when I listen to that, I'm saying like two, five, two, five.
01:09:15 --> 01:09:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't do that.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, we're going to go.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:20 [SPEAKER_00]: That clip, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
01:09:20 --> 01:09:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It like moves you from one to the other.
01:09:22 --> 01:09:23 [SPEAKER_00]: That is where our pivot court is.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
01:09:24 --> 01:09:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So those cool chiming Don Felder guitar chords go E F sharp minor G sharp to
01:09:34 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But for in the new key, when we get to the Johnny come lately, we're in the new key C-sharp, right?
01:09:40 --> 01:09:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you do that when you listen to music, things like two, five, two, five, yeah?
01:09:44 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of, unless it's really technically complicated music, I'm kind of always transcribing in my country.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, that must be a lot going on up there.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's a reason I often listen to music while I'm on a run because I can like be myself into submission or I'm tired enough to not do it, but no, I mean, I'm constantly learning.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to feel tricks and stuff.
01:10:07 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So we go from E to C sharp minor or C sharp Dorian through this cool use of a pivot chord.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:23 [SPEAKER_00]: where the F-sharp exists in both keys, right?
01:10:23 --> 01:10:24 [SPEAKER_00]: The F-sharp chord.
01:10:25 --> 01:10:25 [SPEAKER_00]: With me, yeah?
01:10:26 --> 01:10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:10:26 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Then we have a chorus, which, like I said, is either in C-sharp minor or Dorian, which we started in an E now we're in C-sharp.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're down three half steps.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:32 [SPEAKER_00]: We are down A minor third.
01:10:32 --> 01:10:48 [SPEAKER_04]: [♪ music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in
01:10:55 --> 01:10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I hear it.
01:10:57 --> 01:10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:10:57 --> 01:10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, guess what?
01:10:59 --> 01:11:00 [SPEAKER_00]: We just landed on E again.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And we pivoted back.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So the F sharp again, that F sharp major chord turns into F sharp minor, which is four in C sharp and two in E.
01:11:20 --> 01:11:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And there we are, back in E. Very cool, right?
01:11:22 --> 01:11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've got E C sharp back to E and then verse two and chorus two do it again.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot like don't speak with verses in one key, the chorus.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So we go E, verse C sharp, chorus, E, verse C sharp, chorus.
01:11:39 --> 01:11:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the other eagles and eagles expanded universe.
01:11:44 --> 01:11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm have key changes that define certain sections sometimes through pivot chord modulation.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So some expanded universe experimentation here, life's been good by Joe Walsh.
01:11:54 --> 01:11:55 [SPEAKER_00]: You know this song?
01:11:56 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably when I hear it, I'll know it.
01:11:58 --> 01:11:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You probably will.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:03 [SPEAKER_00]: In 1978, scarques in a very bluesy, a major.
01:12:14 --> 01:12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I like the Joe wall she goes.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you like the rock, but it's weird that you like focus stuff, too.
01:12:21 --> 01:12:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just like something about the grit of it.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I
01:12:40 --> 01:12:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So then we get some cool flat six chords F going back to a, but that F chord is for in the key of C and so we transition to the key of C with this weird 70's reggae rock vibe.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that too.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm all over the place.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the same song, right?
01:13:19 --> 01:13:21 [SPEAKER_04]: That's just crazy.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's on later.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it changes several times, right?
01:13:26 --> 01:13:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we go back and forth, the chorus ends in A minor, but then immediately becomes a major to bring us to the solo passage.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Because I do need so much more.
01:13:45 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: With the weird, like, synthy thing.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
01:14:07 --> 01:14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So the song that has a key scheme, where the instrumental sections are in A, the vocal sections are in C, so it goes A, C, A, C, A, right?
01:14:17 --> 01:14:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So it also has kind of an interesting back and forth, though nothing as complicated is what's gonna happen in this tune later.
01:14:24 --> 01:14:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So okay, we have a guitar solo in New Kid and Town, and then we get a bridge, and bridges are often the furthest away point, harmonically.
01:14:32 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So you might say, oh, that's gonna be in a weird key.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Nope, it's just in the key of E.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:55 [SPEAKER_04]: There are so many things you should have told her But night after night you're willing to hold her Just hold her tears
01:15:05 --> 01:15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: best vocal arrangement Grammy right pretty cool back vocal.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So why did I play this?
01:15:12 --> 01:15:13 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the deal here?
01:15:13 --> 01:15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: We went from the key of E. Yeah.
01:15:15 --> 01:15:24 [SPEAKER_00]: A minor third to the key of G. So we now have this is what verse one sounds like just adjust your tonality.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and then listen to...
01:15:41 --> 01:15:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're up a minor third now, do you remember how far away, memory, the verses are supposed to be in E, the choruses are down, how far to see sharp.
01:15:51 --> 01:15:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Five, no.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:54 [SPEAKER_00]: E to see sharp, down it.
01:15:55 --> 01:15:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, E. Don't be flat.
01:15:57 --> 01:15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, gosh.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: E don't one is D flat.
01:16:01 --> 01:16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: No, D sharp.
01:16:02 --> 01:16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_00]: D, D, D flat, which is C sharp.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So three half steps.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:20 [SPEAKER_00]: We go in the verse down to the chorus three half steps, but this verse is starting three half steps to high, so what does that mean when we're going to go down for the last chorus?
01:16:20 --> 01:16:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we have to go down.
01:16:23 --> 01:16:24 [SPEAKER_01]: 6.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, think about it.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Think about it.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:16:26 --> 01:16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I need things to do.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't overthink it.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't overthink it.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Think about it.
01:16:29 --> 01:16:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't overthink it.
01:16:30 --> 01:16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: To go from verse to chorus, you go down three half steps.
01:16:33 --> 01:16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:16:33 --> 01:16:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We've started this first three half steps too high.
01:16:36 --> 01:16:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:16:36 --> 01:16:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So where are we going to land when we get to the core?
01:16:38 --> 01:16:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Back at the beginning.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Back to our home.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Except it'll be minor.
01:16:42 --> 01:16:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So we set up like Mozart did.
01:16:44 --> 01:16:47 [SPEAKER_00]: We've set up this back door to get back to our team.
01:16:47 --> 01:16:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Back door cadence is a retoolie to the thing by the way.
01:16:49 --> 01:16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about just stuff in other time.
01:16:51 --> 01:16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So adding it to the list.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:55 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's probably fun.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:16:56 --> 01:16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So be a great band name.
01:16:58 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Back door cadence.
01:16:59 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
01:17:00 --> 01:17:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably take in.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
01:17:02 --> 01:17:08 [SPEAKER_00]: The final verses are just totally in G. It's nice and high.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really bright.
01:17:09 --> 01:17:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And we got there through pivot chords, of course.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's really so we can set up what happens later.
01:17:14 --> 01:17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And this move from E to G is actually something that happens in also the Eagles expanded.
01:17:19 --> 01:17:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Now this isn't the expanded universe.
01:17:21 --> 01:17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just literally another song on Hotel, California.
01:17:23 --> 01:17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the last resort.
01:17:24 --> 01:17:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Very beautiful song, but again, one of the slow songs.
01:17:28 --> 01:17:30 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the verse which we start in the key of E.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for the geography lesson, Don.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he came from Providence, the one in Rhode Island.
01:17:53 --> 01:17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, thanks.
01:17:54 --> 01:17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I was, you know, Providence, Massachusetts or whatever.
01:17:56 --> 01:18:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I think we're like, freaky Fridaying, because I wasn't even listening to the lyrics at all.
01:18:02 --> 01:18:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just humming E. Okay.
01:18:05 --> 01:18:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So keep humming E because later, verse six, six, lots of verses.
01:18:10 --> 01:18:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Verse six is up that same minor third in G. But to get there, we go through a key change.
01:18:33 --> 01:18:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I love that I like steps up and it brings us to now it wasn't a pivot chord modulation that was a direct shift and we get verse 6 which is just the same melody in the higher key now you can leave it all behind you sailed through the honey just like the mission air is dead so many years ago
01:19:00 --> 01:19:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, so back to the song.
01:19:02 --> 01:19:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So no good in town.
01:19:03 --> 01:19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: We have this bridge and E major, but we get there through a pivot chord modulation to the key of G sounds like this
01:19:27 --> 01:19:40 [SPEAKER_00]: A minor is the pivot chord between those two keys.
01:19:41 --> 01:19:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that chord it ends on a lot.
01:19:43 --> 01:19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: G chord.
01:19:43 --> 01:19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I always like the chord ends on but I think it's a trick that's what I'm supposed to like.
01:19:47 --> 01:19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the point, right?
01:19:47 --> 01:19:49 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the point, right?
01:19:49 --> 01:19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, resolves, that's the point.
01:19:50 --> 01:19:52 [SPEAKER_00]: We get that two five in G.
01:19:56 --> 01:20:11 [SPEAKER_04]: And then, of course, we've got G major verse now.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But the point of why we're doing this song really, despite it being one of my favorite songs on this album, is
01:20:22 --> 01:20:23 [SPEAKER_00]: where it goes.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we go down a minor third to the chorus, which brings us back to E, except it's actually going to be E minor or E, Dorian, depending on how you look at it.
01:20:32 --> 01:20:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's hear that.
01:20:33 --> 01:20:35 [SPEAKER_00]: This should sound just like it does in the other verses.
01:20:35 --> 01:20:39 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just because we're starting high, we're ending back where we started.
01:20:48 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_04]: You'll never forget you to somebody who comes along.
01:20:58 --> 01:21:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Where you've been lately.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So that bot.com.
01:21:04 --> 01:21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: We are in E, but it's E minor.
01:21:07 --> 01:21:07 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we get back?
01:21:07 --> 01:21:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, E minor and E major are parallel keys.
01:21:11 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what that's called.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And they have so many chords that are similar.
01:21:15 --> 01:21:16 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't quite overlap, but they're similar.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:31 [SPEAKER_00]: they can pretty much just directly go just fly just to the right back right i think it's the four chord they're using there is a out of key pivot but whatever let's us do it it's cool moment to go to the outro which brings us finally back to e-mager
01:21:48 --> 01:21:51 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a new kid in town.
01:21:51 --> 01:21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So like, what's to deal with the song?
01:21:53 --> 01:21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: We go, email your down to C-Sharp Minor for the chorus.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:11 [SPEAKER_00]: back up to E major, back down to C sharp minor for the next chorus, back up to E major for the bridge, up too far to G major for the third verse, which then sets us up to go down to E minor.
01:22:11 --> 01:22:21 [SPEAKER_00]: We've created the pattern of going down three half steps down a minor, third to the chorus, and that lets us land on E minor, which then you just kind of flip the switch and go back to E major.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the key scheme is a lot has more in common, maybe with a senata
01:22:28 --> 01:22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
01:22:29 --> 01:22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, got it despite this one being I left it to the end because it's like really complicated So I had no I like understand like there's different ways to quantify key chain There's so many different types of key changes We'd always think key change, but there's more to it than that.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just a a shift There could be a slow transition or like a tunnel between and This is just another example of how you can transition from one cue to the next in a way that like is very
01:22:58 --> 01:23:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Mindful and has roots in classical music well, maybe maybe, but it has a it's there's a key scheme Right, there's a sequence of of keys to the song and we've gone this whole way and have I even used the term modulation enough?
01:23:13 --> 01:23:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been calling it key changes.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I used I said modulate.
01:23:16 --> 01:23:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm because I'm learning So I'm like pretty much a musician
01:23:21 --> 01:23:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So the genius is how it gets back to E. Right, that's the cool part.
01:23:25 --> 01:23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have some cool key schemes in the greater expanded Eagles universe.
01:23:31 --> 01:23:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is Poco.
01:23:32 --> 01:23:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know the deal with Poco?
01:23:33 --> 01:23:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Poco is like a soft rock country, Foky band from the late 60s, early 70s, but they apparently were the farm team for the Eagles.
01:23:41 --> 01:23:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So their first base player left to join Eagles to be Eagles first base player.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when he quit the band, the replacement base player Timothy B. Schmidt from Poco left Poco to again.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyways, to join them.
01:23:54 --> 01:23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So they live in the house with them.
01:23:55 --> 01:23:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
01:23:56 --> 01:23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: They must have crazy house.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is their song Bad Weather from 1971.
01:24:01 --> 01:24:02 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the refrain.
01:24:02 --> 01:24:03 [SPEAKER_00]: It's in A.
01:24:03 --> 01:24:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But uses G as a part of the core progression, which later leads us to the key of C. So here's what that first refrain sounds like.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't help the feeling that you're alive We won't get to see it out of the day together Just like men with
01:24:31 --> 01:24:43 [SPEAKER_00]: later we have the same music and the third refrain except because of the key change we've we're now in the key of C sort of through an accident almost of the interrelationship of these chords.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So like the Eagles song, we have the same section in different parts, is it in a different key because of the machinations of the... Yeah, he loved it.
01:25:13 --> 01:25:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That bass player was like, you know what we got to be doing?
01:25:15 --> 01:25:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know which bass player, in 1971 is that the first bass, I don't know, one of them.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not singing there.
01:25:21 --> 01:25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes a lot to some people in that one.
01:25:23 --> 01:25:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds a lot like the Eagles.
01:25:25 --> 01:25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so leaving similar stuff.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, leaving the greater Eagles expanded universe.
01:25:30 --> 01:25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: This is beyond the sea.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:33 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Bobby Darren version from 1959.
01:25:34 --> 01:25:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Original song La Mer from 1946 by Charles Tune.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably.
01:25:40 --> 01:25:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Key of F. And then it repeats.
01:25:42 --> 01:25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it goes up a major third to the key of A.
01:25:44 --> 01:25:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And then up again, a minor third to the key of C. So it's not quite a pattern, but this weird shifting keys that eventually land back on F.
01:25:56 --> 01:26:01 [SPEAKER_04]: We are on the scene somewhere waiting for me.
01:26:03 --> 01:26:13 [SPEAKER_04]: My lover stands on golden sail and watches the ship, let go sail.
01:26:15 --> 01:26:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, in the middle eight, we move through from the key of A through the key of C, back to eventually the key of F.
01:26:27 --> 01:26:32 [SPEAKER_04]: We understand, it's near the end of the moon.
01:26:35 --> 01:26:39 [SPEAKER_04]: I know, we are the doubt.
01:26:40 --> 01:26:50 [SPEAKER_04]: My heart will lead me there soon.
01:26:51 --> 01:26:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I love Bobby Darren.
01:26:52 --> 01:26:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:26:53 --> 01:26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.
01:26:54 --> 01:26:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like nostalgic, but also like...
01:26:56 --> 01:26:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not just mad at Kevin Spacey, so you because of that.
01:26:59 --> 01:27:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he was in the movie and it's like, what are you talking about?
01:27:03 --> 01:27:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the opposite.
01:27:04 --> 01:27:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you didn't see the movie beyond the sea.
01:27:05 --> 01:27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a bioplac with Kevin Spacey and obviously that's basically not the most.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not to be concerned about Bobby Darren's funny because
01:27:13 --> 01:27:30 [SPEAKER_01]: he was both rock and roller and like Sanatra kind of cruning right to do both of those things is pretty cool and you could even like take his music and I would love to see like a modern interpretation or modern treatment on him because it's so like it's layerically interesting the tones are interesting.
01:27:30 --> 01:27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that we could cover Bobby Daryne.
01:27:34 --> 01:27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Slack it up and
01:27:41 --> 01:27:48 [SPEAKER_00]: There's not a pattern there to the modulations, but it's same material progressing through different keys and eventually landing back at home.
01:27:49 --> 01:27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: One more example, the life of a showgirl, first verse, so this is 2025, by Teo Swift featuring Sabrina Carpenter.
01:27:59 --> 01:28:01 [SPEAKER_00]: and that's very relevant here.
01:28:01 --> 01:28:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
01:28:02 --> 01:28:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you do.
01:28:03 --> 01:28:07 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Taylor's verse, which is in the key of G.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So you like the song, you obviously know the song.
01:28:24 --> 01:28:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So at the end of the chorus, the last chord is C, remember in the key of G, which is the four, C is the four.
01:28:31 --> 01:28:34 [SPEAKER_00]: But then that just, we say in that key, that becomes our key.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So they just sort of end there and set up
01:28:37 --> 01:29:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Sabrina who has a verse and her voice is higher and we're in a higher key now and this kind of this is like when we talked about Lincoln Park like they're accommodating a different singer by shifting the key and this is part of what makes the song feel very musical theater to make because that'll often happen like a love duet in the musical theater tune won't often be like in the same range or up the octane often they'll shift keys for the different
01:29:07 --> 01:29:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Wait, the more you play the more that you pay You softer than a kid and so you don't know the life of your so-go-go And you never gonna wanna That's becomes our new one The baby of the family in Lennox Her father horde around like all men did
01:29:30 --> 01:29:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And even at the end of that, they go back down for Taylor and like Taylor kind of meets her.
01:29:35 --> 01:29:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like they're like passing back and forth.
01:29:37 --> 01:29:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really low.
01:29:38 --> 01:29:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And that hand off there is actually kind of like when I play the love fool example from the cardigans where the last chord just sort of becomes the a chord in the new key.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the way this ends, this is the second chorus, the verse there, the the Sabrina verse ends on a B flat chord.
01:29:55 --> 01:29:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Which then just slams back to G. There's no pit at there.
01:29:59 --> 01:30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So the key scheme here goes Kiev's G, Kiev C, Kiev G. And that's, I think, it.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:33 [SPEAKER_01]: That's my favorite, like part of that whole album.
01:30:34 --> 01:30:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a big statement.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:36 [SPEAKER_00]: That key change.
01:30:36 --> 01:30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That I'd really love that.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The first time I heard of this, just because I realized how before I knew all these fancy words, I just, my instincts were like, that's what an interesting convention to accommodate different tones and singers.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But now I know that.
01:30:51 --> 01:30:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Very musical theatery.
01:30:52 --> 01:30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Very musical theatery, which is probably like it.
01:30:54 --> 01:30:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:30:55 --> 01:30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So, all right, that was a doozy.
01:30:57 --> 01:30:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I got.
01:30:58 --> 01:30:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:30:58 --> 01:30:59 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about a lot of stuff.
01:30:59 --> 01:31:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And everybody, what did you learn, listeners?
01:31:02 --> 01:31:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck.
01:31:02 --> 01:31:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Have you turned it off?
01:31:04 --> 01:31:06 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is, is this our longest episode ever?
01:31:06 --> 01:31:09 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is they're probably listening at three X-beads.
01:31:09 --> 01:31:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:31:09 --> 01:31:10 [SPEAKER_00]: We probably learn nothing.
01:31:10 --> 01:31:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And the music Sabrina Carberter's voice probably sounds pretty silly on triple speed.
01:31:15 --> 01:31:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:31:16 --> 01:31:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I learned a lot about keys and etc.
01:31:28 --> 01:31:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Never mind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and me, Mark Poppinny.
01:31:32 --> 01:31:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I also produce.
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01:31:38 --> 01:31:43 [SPEAKER_00]: We're never music pot on social media, and you can also send us an email at never music pot at gmail.com.
01:31:45 --> 01:31:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Never mind the music is part of the lorehounds network.
01:31:48 --> 01:31:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Join the conversation by going to the lorehounds.com and hop on our Discord server.
01:31:54 --> 01:31:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.