Should you cast Octatonic Incantation or use a Tremolo Torch? In this week’s sidetrack, Mark reminisces about his (misguided?) attempt at gamifying a music class many years ago. Yes, his college students were grinding for gold, casting spells, leveling up, and looting fallen monsters, all to help them improve their music skills. The question is, did it work? Mark goes through this musicianship game with Nichole, and lets her decide if he was right to leave this experiment in the past.
The rules to the game are here. The character sheets are here.
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00:00 --> 00:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's fascinating what a relic look at the page that says you know, you don't need to look at the instruction She look at what the look at in the audience Pull over the side of the road look at the this is the character sheet lose my mind if I was your student.
00:16 --> 00:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean like a what?
00:28 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm Nicole.
00:29 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Mark.
00:30 --> 00:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is never mind the music.
00:32 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_01]: A side track that I am leading us through.
00:34 --> 00:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait.
00:36 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Teaching and gaining.
00:37 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
00:37 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm tired, Mark.
00:39 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I'm tired.
00:41 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to like enjoy the ride today.
00:43 --> 00:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So you talk at me a little bit.
00:46 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to teach you role playing game rules.
00:48 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that going to work for your brother?
00:49 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Like your PG like table tall?
00:50 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of.
00:51 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's cool.
00:51 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So I need to know those things.
00:53 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wish I could remember.
00:55 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: At the near the end of season two, I remembered that I had done this crazy educational experiment.
01:02 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could remember what we were doing that reminded me of it that made me think, you know, I got to just talk about it on the pod.
01:07 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it was someone writing the discord or something made me remember this, but basically what I want to do in this episode is talk you through a brief chapter in my teaching career.
01:19 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: where I gamified one of my music classes.
01:23 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually found my
01:26 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_01]: My rules that I'd created, and dare I say the character sheets I had created, and look through them for the first time in over a decade, since I created these and kind of roll my eyes, but also was impressed at what I pulled off, and I kind of just wanted to just walk through it and like talk about how possible is this kind of thing, does technology make this work better, should I try it again one day?
01:50 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a couple of preliminary questions.
01:52 --> 02:03 [SPEAKER_00]: When you advertise for this course in like this registration system did students know that they were entering your nerddom of MFI course.
02:04 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And like what course was that?
02:05 --> 02:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is in 2015.
02:08 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_01]: which is to say, the last semester that I was teaching in SoCal.
02:12 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I was adjunct part-time faculty at several schools at the same time and I did not know yet, but by the end of that semester, I would be hired to move to my current job and I would be moving to Boston.
02:24 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So this was.
02:25 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The last semester I taught in SoCal, I had been at that school for a couple of years at that point, and I was teaching musicianship.
02:35 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_01]: This was, I think, musicianship 4, which is to say, at that school, unlike the school I teach at now, they did two required two full years of music theory and musicianship, which is like ear training.
02:49 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's like, what is music for semesters of musicians and we do three here sort of two sort of three depending on how you count.
02:57 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like ear training and that's what these class ones exactly.
03:01 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And we only do half that are a little more here because the expectation is they're going to transfer.
03:06 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_00]: taking care of in a school that's brief associated degree.
03:09 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: California wants you like full on done with all of that before you transfer, which, you know, pros and cons there.
03:14 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So our students get to take music technology and stuff like that instead of only theory.
03:19 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is not the theory class.
03:21 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the musicianship class that you're in the same group of students in both classes.
03:25 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: They're even back to back.
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But you have a separate grade.
03:28 --> 03:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Co-Hort model is great for attention.
03:29 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Co-Hort model is great for really hard music skills, acquisition, right?
03:35 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Being a part of an ensemble, we are all in it together.
03:37 --> 03:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Being a part of the same group of theory and your training students helps you be in it together with your classmates.
03:43 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So, they did not know what they were in for though.
03:46 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I had already had these students for two semesters previously.
03:50 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I probably told them what was coming.
03:52 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably the previous fall.
03:54 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I had said a few words about what I was planning.
03:57 --> 04:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember how much they knew, but I was some part-time faculty.
04:03 --> 04:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not control the schedule.
04:04 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no way the schedule would have said, this is the cookie social experiment your professors can are.
04:10 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Professor who's just fresh out of grad school is going to run on there.
04:14 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: We're so glad you moved.
04:15 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_00]: They were like, thank goodness.
04:17 --> 04:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, word.
04:19 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
04:20 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, should we hire him back?
04:21 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_00]: My game guy.
04:22 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't always move.
04:23 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're subject actually a little bit.
04:25 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad I got this job, but like I got passed over for you.
04:28 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you?
04:28 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of the worst.
04:29 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's happened to me.
04:30 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so this is kind of a fun diversion on higher ed this.
04:35 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
04:36 --> 04:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Next side track, Nicole and I, we've been talking about it.
04:39 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: We are going to actually talk a little smack about higher ed next talk.
04:42 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting.
04:43 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm into that.
04:44 --> 04:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And the idea of being passed over for stuff.
04:46 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you've guided me through some of these processes too.
04:49 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Like in our, in our friendship, that like maybe it is for the best.
04:53 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think, the path that you're on.
04:55 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the best path because it led you to this podcast.
04:58 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously this is absolutely the pinnacle of your professional career.
05:02 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
05:03 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
05:03 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Not my theory class, but my musicianship class at this community college in Orange County.
05:11 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I gamified the class.
05:13 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it was a concept that had been floating around, I don't know on the internet, YouTube, whatever.
05:18 --> 05:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I had heard some people talking about it, never in relation to music teaching.
05:22 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, when we gamify education,
05:26 --> 05:30 [SPEAKER_01]: For those that don't know, you're basically adding game design elements to the structure of the class.
05:30 --> 05:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the main benefits of this would be a you highlight improvement and not deficit.
05:36 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So right now, the way I teach my classes currently, you sort of start with 100, right?
05:41 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You start with an A plus and everything you do.
05:44 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you got to be on that first homework assignment.
05:46 --> 05:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You now have a B in the class.
05:47 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you got to D on the next one.
05:48 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you have a C in the class.
05:50 --> 05:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Most classes are set up to where the things you do often lower your grade, right?
05:56 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I get, I actually flip my grade based on some new research, I frame it the other way.
06:00 --> 06:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So you start with a zero when you build your own right.
06:03 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So, for equity, gamification can make that more possible because what it is is your leveling up.
06:09 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
06:09 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not starting with 100 and everything you're doing is dinging you.
06:12 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you start with a zero.
06:14 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You did the first homework assignment.
06:15 --> 06:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now you have 100 points.
06:17 --> 06:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You do the next one.
06:17 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you have 150.
06:18 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You do and slowly you get to get your A or whatever, right?
06:22 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:22 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how you do it.
06:23 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
06:24 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the scary thing of that isn't near students check Canvas or they check Blackboard and they see you, they have an F for the first half of the semester because technically they do.
06:32 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, just hide their grades, buddy.
06:33 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You just hide that call.
06:35 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we got to be doing on Canvas.
06:36 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
06:37 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could highlight improvement, not deficits, right?
06:40 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You can also encourage practice by rewarding practicing in ways that I'll explain.
06:46 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_01]: everything you do helps you.
06:47 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing you could turn in hurts you.
06:50 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll never lose points.
06:51 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: You could get a zero on that assignment and still you have the same points you had before, right?
06:55 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas you get a zero on a homework assignment and a traditional great game, it lowers your great.
06:59 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the atomic zero.
07:01 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Who is that?
07:02 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_00]: What's it called?
07:03 --> 07:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's just like if you get a zero and find, it's yeah, like you can never come back from it.
07:08 --> 07:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you're finalist, that's a real thing.
07:09 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_00]: 3% of your grade, or half of your grade, and you don't take it, you'll never recover from it.
07:15 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
07:15 --> 07:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a real problem when we shouldn't.
07:18 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: use like more traditional or old-fashioned, I'd say grading paradigms.
07:23 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say though, not showing up for the final, you can't recover from that because it's the final, and you made that choice, right?
07:30 --> 07:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I get that too.
07:31 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it was a good reason or not.
07:32 --> 07:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, you can disguise all this practice in mechanics as a game, and you can kind of make the experience more fun.
07:39 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So I decided to try this.
07:41 --> 07:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
07:42 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got exactly one semester into it before I moved here and stop doing that because I was like, I got a new job.
07:49 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
07:49 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be a department chair soon.
07:51 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I got to just kind of buckle down and Part of me feels like I probably could have made it work well, but we'll come back to that.
07:58 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_00]: There's also another benefit for gameifying your classroom that you didn't mention here.
08:02 --> 08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And you will, but it's really, really great for neurodivergent learners, especially learners with ADHD because it
08:09 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_00]: offers like small measurable dopamine pushes throughout the semester.
08:14 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
08:14 --> 08:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So it like takes this big, you know, big idea of music and ship and it makes it funer and more reward-based and that's going to help people regulate their dopamine and keep them motivated.
08:25 --> 08:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's great for folks with ADHD.
08:27 --> 08:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think
08:28 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_01]: people with some certain types of neurodivergency would benefit from this.
08:32 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
08:33 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are types of neurodivergent minds that this could just be obstacle.
08:38 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
08:39 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
08:39 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe there's a real misunderstanding.
08:41 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You've already learned the rules of a college classroom to go into this and now you have like a what?
08:45 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
08:46 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_00]: If I can multi-sided dice your plan with something like
08:49 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but also for some students that's a positive some students if you think of what students with autism, maybe they're also very into Maybe multi-sided dices for dive for whatever reasons, but I couldn't guarantee that right now.
09:03 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So I gave up on it after one semester and a lot's changed since then I want to revisit it and I don't know maybe there's something there.
09:13 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So some other context here is that I had been doing a lot of tabletop game design at the point
09:19 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're not going to talk about it.
09:20 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just find a lot, I don't know what to talk about.
09:23 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about it here.
09:24 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But I was a part of a tabletop gaming group that we designed our whole system.
09:29 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I got as far as writing 30 pages of a player's handbook for this thing.
09:33 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like chapter one.
09:34 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_00]: For the class?
09:35 --> 09:38 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, of this actual just a work-ling game we designed.
09:38 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Like D&D, but not D&D, we invented our own.
09:41 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like a decade of my life, not like,
09:44 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that whenever we would just slowly adjust the rules and massage and make the game better and it was really fun.
09:50 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have this like as a skill set sort of on some level that again, I haven't really used it.
09:55 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Put it on your resume.
09:55 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I think on your CV skill sets, special skills.
09:59 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Game design.
10:00 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:00 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:00 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
10:02 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, my CV's already 15 pages.
10:04 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
10:05 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I got that.
10:05 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You're fine.
10:05 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I probably put this podcast before I would put the game design.
10:08 --> 10:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So I decided and this could be controversial to give this thing a fantasy theme.
10:14 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Dungeon Dragons or something.
10:16 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It was that or science fiction.
10:17 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to side between that and sci-fi, but there was something kind of
10:21 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I was almost lamp shading what I was doing in a sense that like fantasy felt sort of absurd.
10:27 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if I can have knights and wizards in a music theory type of classroom, there's almost it's kind of so silly that maybe could make it more endearing as opposed to sci-fi maybe would feel like I was taking it too seriously that I was trying to be cool, whereas I was trying to almost be uncool.
10:44 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are so many conventions already set up in sci-fi that like you follow those same conventions, do you make your own like, well, that's true in fantasy, too, right?
10:51 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're the warcraft at that time was still pretty popular.
10:54 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I had also just written a musical that was set at a MMO RPG convention and stuff.
11:00 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, who are you?
11:01 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a whole life.
11:01 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh oh, oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
11:09 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:10 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:11 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:11 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:12 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:12 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:13 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:14 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:15 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:15 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:16 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:16 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:17 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:18 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:18 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:19 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:20 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:21 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:21 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:22 --> 11:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:24 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:24 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:25 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:26 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:26 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:28 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:29 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:30 --> 11:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
11:31 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
11:35 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's not.
11:36 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There might be something else with that name afterwards.
11:38 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like SCL and that term is gone bad.
11:40 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure.
11:42 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, can I give you the main idea for how this thing worked?
11:45 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
11:46 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to find it, really.
11:48 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I will use that whole way cycle in real life.
11:50 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Is the main character max?
11:51 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
11:53 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_01]: See, but that's got to be after us.
11:55 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't exist before.
11:55 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And then musical hashtag, IRL, 2020-25th of David Yauverbaum and busy in a gold rich, for those you can...
12:02 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
12:02 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine if they stole it, right?
12:04 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there was a musical that got put up at UCLA in like 2011 called IRL in real life.
12:10 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And they did not do their research.
12:12 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_01]: We have the copyright on and everything, whatever.
12:15 --> 12:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy the name, fools.
12:16 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I have it works.
12:19 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: My musical is sitting on my hard drive right now.
12:21 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
12:21 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we get back to it?
12:23 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is all these paths not keep taking or going to make me get depressed.
12:28 --> 12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because I still think a few of the songs I wrote for that are some of the best things ever before.
12:32 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You see a spring sing and Roy's Hall.
12:36 --> 12:40 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but maybe I mean, for all I know somebody's in one of the songs or something crazy like that.
12:41 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it was probably done in like 20 10 or 11 or something.
12:43 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we used to have websites stuff, but and there was like YouTube video or whatever that was like a costume recording of the demo and everything.
12:52 --> 12:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to find it, but not right now.
12:54 --> 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to fully focus, I'm closing my computer.
12:57 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to fully focus.
12:58 --> 13:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you will meet your attention on this time.
13:00 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to teach you rules.
13:01 --> 13:02 [UNKNOWN]: Okay.
13:02 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I got it.
13:03 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
13:03 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready.
13:21 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really interested in hearing what each character does.
13:24 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll get there.
13:24 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
13:25 --> 13:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
13:26 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've got a character sheet to show you.
13:28 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait.
13:28 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not showing it to you right now because I know you just look at it.
13:30 --> 13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to get distracted.
13:31 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck the basic idea.
13:32 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to stay focused.
13:33 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So you start with zero experience point.
13:35 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
13:37 --> 13:39 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get to 3600 experience.
13:39 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's a lot.
13:40 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_00]: 11 A. Wow.
13:41 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
13:41 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So a B would be, I don't know, 3, 20 or something like that.
13:44 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:45 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Gradations below.
13:46 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially everything you do raises the great.
13:49 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: because you get experience for every task you complete, essentially.
13:53 --> 13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Higher experience also raises your level, though, which is different.
13:58 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So your grade at the end of the day is just your grade.
14:00 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Your grade, the students don't interact with their grade until I look at the math and give them a grade at the end of the term.
14:06 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_01]: What they get is their level.
14:08 --> 14:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And the higher level you get, the more special abilities you get, spells and stuff like that.
14:14 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: My friends would hate this.
14:17 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get to that because some of them may be did, right?
14:21 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_00]: They really just give us to create.
14:23 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But some of that is, but with the spells, the skills give you kind of cheats in class.
14:27 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get, let me get that.
14:29 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So your skills and you choose a character class that gets different kinds.
14:33 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you could be the person who helps the team, you could be the person who's really who gets extra listens on the exercise, you could be the person that has the abilities that give you extra gold to buy items and stuff like that.
14:44 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me, I'm sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you a lot because I have questions.
14:48 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So to the audience members.
14:49 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure.
14:50 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but yeah, like the thing about these games that's annoying to me is I don't know what special skills I'm gonna need if it's my first time playing the game because I don't know how the game's gonna shake out now like later You know, I play Zelda a lot.
15:04 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure like any game, right?
15:06 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Right like I know that I can just go and get the power bracelet first thing And that's gonna be my priority.
15:11 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just gonna find my way with my three stupid hearts because you really want defense
15:15 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because like I just want to be able to transport around I know that that's going to help me navigate game play at the beginning of this game day one using pick a cast like pick a special skill I don't know what's going to be useful.
15:27 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: You think I would tell them what the skills do though.
15:30 --> 15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but I don't know if I'm going to, if it's my first time, but it's not so that part of it is they've been in my class for two semesters.
15:37 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is important because if you're saying I can listen twice, like maybe for me, I could really benefit.
15:42 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, so you choose, I hate this term, but this is the term of art.
15:46 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You choose a race, right?
15:48 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You're a door for your an elf.
15:49 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And like we can say cast, that's what I like.
15:52 --> 15:53 [SPEAKER_01]: cast is also loaded.
15:53 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, but at least it's like you.
15:55 --> 15:57 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's in your name and it's in your species.
15:57 --> 15:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
15:57 --> 16:00 [SPEAKER_01]: A human and each species gets a bonus to certain things.
16:00 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So you would know if you're a student who's bad at singing, I'm going to choose the character that gives me a bonus to singing.
16:07 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: If I am really good at chord progressions, I'm not going to choose the one that gives me a bonus to chords because I don't need that bonus, right?
16:13 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:13 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So, these students at least this first run knew themselves sort of, that's the big one.
16:18 --> 16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They know which items are going to be, they don't, right?
16:20 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But let me explain it, we could see, what you are pointing out are possible flaws in the system.
16:25 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Did I mention I did this one semester and never did it?
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I won't read those course evaluations so badly, dude.
16:30 --> 16:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
16:32 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_01]: What you do are dungeons.
16:36 --> 16:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love that.
16:36 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_01]: What the dungeons are are quizzes.
16:38 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So the dungeons are the graded material in class.
16:41 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:41 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Not your practice.
16:42 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But today we're going to do sight singing test.
16:45 --> 16:49 [SPEAKER_01]: A minith quiz or a melodic dictation quiz.
16:49 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We're I'm going to play a melody.
16:50 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to write it down.
16:51 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a dungeon.
16:53 --> 16:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is your opportunity to get experience points.
16:56 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Practicing at home.
16:56 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't get experience.
16:58 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Your grade is based on your quiz performance.
17:00 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
17:02 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you use the skills, the spells and stuff to help you in the dungeons, to give you advantages, okay, so when you use a skill, you've used it and it needs to be replenished, so you either replenish it.
17:18 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_01]: by using another ability or you buy an item that doesn't, right?
17:21 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So you buying items?
17:22 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:23 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
17:24 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, where's the shop?
17:26 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this leads to some of the cool and some of the crappy parts of this.
17:29 --> 17:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you so much, man.
17:30 --> 17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: If you practice at home, I call that grinding.
17:34 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love grinding.
17:35 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my favorite part of gameplay.
17:36 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you?
17:37 --> 17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah.
17:38 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: When you grind, you don't get experience.
17:40 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You get gold and you get gold and a chance to have a random monster encounter.
17:45 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Who fun?
17:46 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_01]: A random monster encounter is in even more mini quiz.
17:49 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:50 --> 17:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you win, you get loot.
17:52 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So what is gold, if you get gold from grinding, you and I'll explain how grinding works in all that.
17:57 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get gold from grinding, you can buy items that you can use to give you advantages or you could just get them for free if you kill a monster.
18:04 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So you said, loot.
18:06 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, loot is stuff you buy or stuff you kill a monster and they drop and you pick up.
18:10 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a potion that restores your skill or, and I'll, we can read some of the examples later.
18:15 --> 18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, oh, I either found this potion by killing a monster by poppinning giving me a little tiny pop quiz or.
18:22 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I grinded dictation at home for an hour this week and I got gold from that and I bought that potion.
18:30 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:30 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
18:31 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So the dungeons give you up to a hundred experience.
18:34 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect score would be a hundred experience point.
18:36 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, 36 hundred gives you an A in the class.
18:38 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
18:39 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of them.
18:40 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: There's more than one every day.
18:42 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you grind for points?
18:43 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So you grind for gold.
18:45 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't grind for experience.
18:46 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:46 --> 18:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So the practice at home gives you items that help you get better grades on the quizzes.
18:52 --> 18:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
18:52 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't actually give you a grade.
18:54 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: No, but it gets you like a second life postions over time.
18:56 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
18:57 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll give you actual examples later.
18:59 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But of the five categories of actual dungeons, right, there's rhythm performance, singing performance, rhythm dictation, melody dictation, or chords dictation.
19:10 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
19:11 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_01]: We would have, I think, one of each of those per week, maybe, something like that.
19:15 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, you'd have one sightseeing graded material either on Monday or one day of that week.
19:21 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not every day, you would have everything, but you're having them all once a week.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So you've got like five of them per week, right?
19:27 --> 19:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Something like that.
19:29 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So the midterm and final are bosses, and they're 800 experience.
19:34 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:34 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you blow off to that atomic effort, whatever, if you don't show up for the final, you've just left 800 experience on the table, right, in theory, right?
19:43 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And the grinding, the practice is all on our system.
19:47 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So the student's self, because again, it doesn't affect their grades, so I don't care if they're lying to me.
19:52 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:53 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope they aren't, though.
19:54 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they're grinding too.
19:55 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_00]: get gold get gold which essentially is knowledge and the knowledge is going to help them do well on the test.
20:00 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They're studying and the jokes on them in the sense that the more they practice, the less they even need the stupid potion.
20:05 --> 20:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's put the trickles and education.
20:08 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always like that.
20:09 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't know if you come to all the review sessions, I'll give you bonus credit.
20:13 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need like the person.
20:14 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_01]: the back of my theory to final exam at my current college has a bonus question that's like really gnarly you have to do like an harmonic modulation using a German augmented sixth nobody who gets the 10 points on that needs that point.
20:29 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the whole thing that's like is it
20:31 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a lot of ethical conversations with extra credit using only people that are doing extra credit are people don't that don't need it and also like this idea I generally don't ever offer except for a content attend your classmates concerts and I'll give you a We do it for like if you participate in a on campus research study or something else get extra credit because we have a research labs.
20:51 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my school
20:53 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:53 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_00]: There's lots there about like studying and incentivizing.
20:56 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I had some other comments on it, but I'm going to save them for a higher episode, but keep going on and on this.
21:04 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:04 --> 21:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're basically like, you sell for a port.
21:08 --> 21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You're grinding.
21:08 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
21:09 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's five categories, right?
21:10 --> 21:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You could say, I practice sight singing and chord dictation this week.
21:15 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You then get to roll for gold twice.
21:17 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And you've literally rolled a roll, a six-sided die, or in that case, if you practiced all five things, I would give you five, six-sided dice, and you would roll them all, and count up the pips, and that's how much gold you just want.
21:31 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_00]: The pips?
21:32 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what they call it?
21:33 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Pips are the little dots on the dice.
21:34 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's interesting.
21:35 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell me I never knew that?
21:36 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I also been rolling like, I'm rolling a D-hundred or something.
21:40 --> 21:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm rolling some other dice randomly to determine whether they encountered a monster.
21:44 --> 21:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:45 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And if they encounter the monster, I have some random on-hand like, okay, single harmonic minor scale for me.
21:50 --> 21:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, boom, you did it.
21:52 --> 21:54 [SPEAKER_01]: You then get loot also plus gold, right?
21:55 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So, what's your enrollment in this class?
21:57 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: A comedy student see working on this.
21:59 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Small.
21:59 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be.
22:00 --> 22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: 12, maybe.
22:01 --> 22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
22:01 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's no way you could go.
22:03 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
22:03 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Musicianship classes like this cannot happen.
22:06 --> 22:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I had one at my current college.
22:08 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Enrollment peaked because our state, a year, two years ago at this point, made community college free.
22:14 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So we got a very sudden enrollment burst, and so my theory and oral skills class became majorly over enrolled, but we did not have time to add another one.
22:24 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just had 32 students in my class, and it was a nightmare.
22:28 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like actually 10 of them failed.
22:31 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_01]: just outright because the class didn't function well enough and I take certain response but I what was I supposed to do.
22:36 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make an argument that I'm sure folks in your circle have been making like I think it's great for access and opportunity to have free college but what you're doing is you're having a lot of people in the classroom that aren't academically prepared for college.
22:50 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's no skin in the game also, right?
22:51 --> 22:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm just kidding the game.
22:53 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that you're going while it's great on paper, I think that it's overcrowded classrooms and you're using resources to folks that aren't going to pursue, or that are or conversely, that are taking free community college classes for two years to get their associates and that are transferring other places, and it's not because they can't afford to go other places in the first place.
23:20 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: but because they're just savvy and they understand that that's like a path that they could take.
23:24 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't do that as a negative.
23:26 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's a big thing.
23:26 --> 23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to bring them, yeah.
23:28 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, people transfer on to my own home, people transfer to their schools, and they're like, yeah, your theory class was better than the theory class.
23:34 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_01]: They're short.
23:35 --> 23:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's the thing about the school you work at that people don't understand when I worked at the place I'm currently at in the place that you work at.
23:42 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time.
23:43 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, yeah.
23:43 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_00]: For a while, teaching the same lessons, same curriculum.
23:47 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_01]: What's all you, they were getting at my place.
23:49 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And like that's what I was saying to your students.
23:51 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you think that you're at a deficit because you're at like a community college, right?
23:55 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is you're so much smarter because literally this afternoon I'm taking the train downtown doing the same exact thing to people that are paying probably 10 times more than you for that same product.
24:08 --> 24:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're for better.
24:10 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_00]: really better.
24:11 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm as to the point where I love like put it this way that one year my theory one class was 60% over enrolled basically and actually 10 students or whatever.
24:22 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: My theory two class was the same size it always is.
24:24 --> 24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because people don't because like the class was so overcrowded and the resources were split.
24:30 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just so much more difficult and some of that's on me, but it's a combination of like this class doesn't function with a large group combined with some of these new students aren't maybe academically prepared or maybe five of them just stopped showing up after three weeks because they're not paying anyways, right?
24:45 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Combined with maybe I pedagogically was taken to off guard.
24:50 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I make it work?
24:51 --> 24:56 [SPEAKER_01]: All that combined to where theory two, which often has cement to attrition theories a bit of a weater class, even though I try not to make it.
24:56 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There are two minus still been 15 students when it normally would be.
25:01 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: 13, like I, those extra dozen students only added one or two, but anyway.
25:06 --> 25:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It matters.
25:07 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_00]: My classes went up from 29 and now my classes are like 45.
25:10 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the biggest one.
25:13 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And you do have to pedagogically change.
25:14 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_00]: However, you can't, you can't teach the same way.
25:17 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it is like nominally not like a huge jump, like it just, the course manager and piece changes, it's a different job.
25:24 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We definitely have smaller class sizes than a lot of colleges, but music in particular, a lot of ours are talking, you can't do, we couldn't do 500 like some universities do, even at those universities, the theory and the year training class is small.
25:38 --> 25:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so it's a practice-based class, it's a lab.
25:41 --> 25:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more like a, this actually literally is a lab.
25:44 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so go on, thank you.
25:46 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Small group of students, but this did lead to some problems that I'll explain.
25:50 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not lost on me that you're pointing out.
25:52 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_01]: How big was the class size?
25:53 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So the last, like, rule to show and then let's actually look at this stupid nerd crap, I created it.
26:00 --> 26:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's stupid.
26:01 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, by the way, if you lose to the monster, you lose some of the gold you just won.
26:06 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, and maybe that's all right.
26:08 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the only negative thing that's happened.
26:09 --> 26:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But gold is like, you just, you just, you're just funny.
26:11 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You can just, you're just funny.
26:13 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
26:13 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not real.
26:14 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:15 --> 26:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So I will say the one negative element.
26:18 --> 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: If you miss class, if you don't show up or you're late, like, several times, you get a jinx.
26:24 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Which means you get a negative one to your gold rolls for that week.
26:28 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
26:29 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
26:30 --> 26:35 [SPEAKER_00]: In a lot, I don't have an attendance policy in my classes and people are like, how come if we can just not show up?
26:35 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, yeah, because when you're paying money, so if you don't show up, you're losing your money.
26:40 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And also similar to your point about homework and extra credit analysis, like, if you don't show up, that's going to be reflected on your grade on the assessments because you're not going to know what we're doing.
26:50 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very few students don't show up and still can pass this.
26:53 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:53 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_00]: There's like, and they don't see that correlation.
26:55 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you cannot just do it at home.
26:57 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
26:57 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, yeah.
26:59 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So go on.
26:59 --> 27:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So keep in touch.
27:00 --> 27:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get two jinxes in a row, meaning you missed two days in a row, or your late for two weeks in a row, whatever.
27:05 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You get a curse.
27:07 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where it's like, maybe it's me being mean, you can't use any of your skills.
27:11 --> 27:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't use your, you can't cheat on the good cheat.
27:14 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't good cheat on any of the quizzes.
27:17 --> 27:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you need an item to cure it.
27:18 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to go home work.
27:20 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to grind to get.
27:21 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's no homework.
27:22 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So doing this in theory would be way more complicated because the homework has a grade.
27:27 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The only experience opportunities are in class.
27:30 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Your home is practice to get the skills replenish to.
27:34 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of love it.
27:35 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
27:35 --> 27:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Theoretically, it's very, very strong.
27:38 --> 27:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Theoretically.
27:38 --> 27:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:39 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, I mean, let me show you the character sheet, okay?
27:43 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah.
27:44 --> 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, I will get a poster on this side.
27:47 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good niss thing.
27:49 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I will upload this to a driver something and I'll post the link in the show notes.
27:53 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_01]: He's got like a cell phone.
27:55 --> 27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: No, hang on.
27:57 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I would love, I need all of it.
28:00 --> 28:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fascinating, what a relic.
28:02 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the page that says, you don't need to look at the instruction sheet, look at.
28:09 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at him and audience, pull over on the side of the road, look at the, this is the character.
28:14 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I would lose my mind if I was your student.
28:16 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, what?
28:17 --> 28:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so you could see you choose a race.
28:20 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so she's turned to the next page.
28:22 --> 28:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I gotta say, don't turn this.
28:23 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:24 --> 28:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You choose your race, human elf, dwarf, hobbit, and orc.
28:27 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:28 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I had done sci-fi, it would be aliens, or it would be whatever.
28:30 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:31 --> 28:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Humans get bonus.
28:32 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, to rhythmic dictation, Hobbits, to singing performance.
28:36 --> 28:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the idea there is, if you are bad at that thing, choose that species.
28:41 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:42 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_01]: If you were bad at Melody, choose elf because every quiz you take, every dungeon, you get a bonus 5% for free.
28:48 --> 28:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
28:49 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
28:50 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Character class.
28:51 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is where I rather have that I was like, you are, this is,
28:54 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I just read some of these character names?
28:57 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you need to go through all of them.
28:58 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They're all music puns by the way.
29:00 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's what I'm not getting.
29:01 --> 29:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what?
29:02 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, read a few of them.
29:03 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to read through everything.
29:05 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Class, night of subtilia.
29:07 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_00]: subtilia.
29:09 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Art of subtilia is a very complicated medieval, late medieval style of music.
29:13 --> 29:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Def of Missouri, huh?
29:15 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Good dance.
29:16 --> 29:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Greatest of Nyquist.
29:18 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Nyquist, Henry Nyquist is an engineer, is this.
29:21 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And they would know this.
29:24 --> 29:31 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, some of them, but, but, they recognize the word mazarka because they're so poor, but no, they don't know what they're not reading this.
29:31 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Am you like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
29:48 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: your class gives you your spells, your skills.
29:50 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So just as an example, the night of superior, you can make me play the quiz again.
29:57 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm doing a dictation, you can make me play it multiple times extra.
30:00 --> 30:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what your spell is.
30:01 --> 30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So like I heard the melody five times, I want a sixth time play it again.
30:06 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's only after an upgrade at upgrade level three.
30:09 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, okay, sure.
30:10 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one how do you get upgraded?
30:12 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to get it.
30:13 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: You get
30:13 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You grind and get experienced.
30:15 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_01]: No, when you get experienced, you level up.
30:17 --> 30:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the night of septilier, their basics skill is I will give them a hint.
30:20 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_01]: If you apply a melody and it's a dictation and you use your skill, the ISO rhythmic interrogation, I will skip you a hint.
30:28 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say, well, on the downbeat, there's a perfect fifth or something like that.
30:31 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll give you a, it's, I guarantee them that it would be a useful hint.
30:35 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Not a BS hint.
30:36 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I will give you a helpful hint.
30:37 --> 30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But then when you reach level three,
30:39 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That ability becomes Talia's smite.
30:43 --> 30:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Talia is a type of isoprhythmic.
30:45 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I write on this?
30:46 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
30:47 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And that time, I will literally play a part of the dictation again for you, right?
30:52 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
30:52 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And so basically, it's a cheat because you're trying to write down.
30:55 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So why would you choose the night of subtilier?
30:57 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably if you're somebody who struggles with dictation, which would have been me, right?
31:03 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, as a comparison, the priest of Nyquist, the priest is a healing character, right?
31:09 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: The blessings of Fourier is the skill you receive a full other listen on a dungeon, which that means everybody gets that, right?
31:18 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_01]: stochastic prayer, you can choose the starting location of that list.
31:22 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And so those are both dictation-based classes.
31:24 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But one of them is about getting hints.
31:26 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The other is about just getting to listen to it.
31:28 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The class skills.
31:29 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_00]: That mean like everyone in the class gets your class.
31:31 --> 31:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Classes your character class, like you were seeing.
31:34 --> 31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the term of art for, and that's a negative maybe.
31:37 --> 31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
31:37 --> 31:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a term of art in tabletop, right?
31:38 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Your reading is a class.
31:39 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_00]: A very informed question, then.
31:40 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:41 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
31:42 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The wizard has spells that you can literally make me do a different thing.
31:47 --> 31:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm playing some B-flat minor melody and you're like, no, you have to change it.
31:51 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to go to a different list and change more.
31:54 --> 31:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the thief steals gold or gets extra bonus gold.
31:57 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So a totally unrelated, that's the thief is a selfish class, like these other skills, helpful whole class.
32:04 --> 32:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, anybody who's pulled over at the side of the road or stopped vacuuming or whatever,
32:10 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: As you get high level, the skills get crazier, right?
32:14 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could use skills multiple times.
32:17 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: You could see at level four, you could double your gold.
32:20 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So level six.
32:21 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You could steal somebody else's skill.
32:23 --> 32:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So if somebody else used the skill, you could use your skill to get their skill to count for you also.
32:27 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So at level six, your skill can be bashing.
32:31 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Bispig gliando.
32:33 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The vanishing Bispilyando.
32:35 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sure.
32:35 --> 32:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That means you defeat the final dungeon without having to fight the final boss.
32:39 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you're at that level, you don't have to take the final.
32:41 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and look at the experience it takes to reach the whole life.
32:44 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to like have to have enough experience to already have an A, which basically meant you almost have perfected everything.
32:53 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So in theory, so yes, that sounds, and that's like a false carrot.
32:57 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, look, everybody, if you reach level six, you don't even have to take the final.
33:00 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Really is a game.
33:01 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But the only person in that class who would ever possibly reach level six is somebody who would have ace the final anyways.
33:07 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're really good.
33:08 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of a tricky trick, tricky trick.
33:10 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But, but the point is at the beginning of the semester, you're getting these very low level skills.
33:15 --> 33:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, I can roll the gold again.
33:18 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I can get a free hint.
33:19 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But by the time you're level four,
33:21 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You're getting to refill your skills, you're getting like the skills that the students are using at the end of the term are way more powerful, right?
33:29 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_01]: But you could see all they're doing is kind of on the margins, making them do a little better on these quizzes.
33:34 --> 33:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And most of the skills help the other students also, some more than others, right?
33:40 --> 33:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but remember, once you use it, you lose it.
33:43 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you turn the page, you can see these are the items in the shop.
33:48 --> 33:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, for example, you could buy a mixed-elidian skillstone, which costs 100 gold.
33:54 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And all it does is refill your level for skill.
33:57 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you happened to in the previous class, use the, I don't know, use the barriers five finger discount spell, you would get that back and you could use it again immediately.
34:09 --> 34:11 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the moment that it's too much.
34:12 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's too much.
34:12 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:13 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in your class.
34:14 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You're still day one.
34:15 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You're talking us through this.
34:17 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I am on my computer dropping this.
34:19 --> 34:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's come back to that.
34:20 --> 34:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because that didn't happen.
34:22 --> 34:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's come back to it.
34:23 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
34:46 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, you can use your goal to buy.
34:49 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm choosing a random one.
34:51 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_01]: The debt has shade dagger, which removes a curse.
34:54 --> 35:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If you've been cursed, because you were absent, or you can buy this is expensive, 100, gold, a satchel of soulization, which gives you an automatic A plus on your next quiz.
35:05 --> 35:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So boom, just free grade.
35:06 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But why you practice enough to have rolled gold enough times, or you beat the monster in one that and you got a free A.
35:14 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_01]: the concept is to reward their practice and to make it a little fun.
35:19 --> 35:21 [SPEAKER_01]: However, there's three big problems with this.
35:21 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_01]: One, it's totally not for everyone.
35:23 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_01]: The vibe aimed for everyone, right?
35:26 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:27 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very like aesthetically kind of not for everybody, but also, two, a little too complicated for everyone.
35:35 --> 35:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that you're definitely in a
35:42 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_00]: like then like all for because what I'm struggling with is the
35:47 --> 36:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I understand conceptually it is just the vocabulary around it like when you say class is it the whole like our class like it's stuff like so I also think though for 22 year olds in 2015 that familiarity is not a problem okay they would have known what world work after is and maybe some a lot of them they were aware enough of video games and stuff to know when I say experience points.
36:12 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like I understand that.
36:13 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They have an advantage over our generation, I think, and that regard.
36:16 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's.
36:17 --> 36:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing, sure, I'm alienating students with how ridiculously complicated this is.
36:22 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And mind you, I did this once.
36:23 --> 36:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:24 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I had continued this experiment, major changes immediately.
36:27 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sure.
36:28 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the real break.
36:29 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
36:30 --> 36:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Where it breaks.
36:31 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The management of it.
36:32 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:33 --> 36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: How long did it take me to do the dice rolling every day?
36:37 --> 36:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And everybody who's ever played D&D knows the fun of thing to do is to roll a big die and get a reward.
36:42 --> 36:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But to have each of those 10 students or whatever they should roll their gold and oh, you have to, you get to, you get to, you get to fight a monster and I'm like in the second, we like, oh, shit.
36:52 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to do a monster battle with this person.
36:54 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_01]: That's another two minutes while they sightseeing something.
36:55 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're teaching content,
36:57 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, it was like 20 minutes of every class I had to spend basically leveling and look, when you play D&D, it's fun to level up your character and get a new skill and so they would get the skill and a few of them are like, oh cool, I get to cause every level you achieve, you have to choose one of those.
37:13 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't get all the skill.
37:14 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_00]: What you needed next time was a TA that did all this during their office hours.
37:17 --> 37:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think now you was using that for an AI.
37:21 --> 37:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And a spreadsheet even, something.
37:23 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was, it used.
37:27 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: because what you would have to, here's the thing.
37:29 --> 37:34 [SPEAKER_01]: If I did this again, you didn't start to go like, buddy, this is too overwhelming until you're like looking at the list.
37:35 --> 37:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You could almost hide all of that from a student.
37:38 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:39 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You choose your skill.
37:40 --> 37:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to help everybody?
37:41 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to get yourself gold?
37:42 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you want gold?
37:43 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Choose thief.
37:44 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:44 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to know what you get in the level side.
37:45 --> 37:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to know what the different options are.
37:47 --> 37:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Just, oh, the random number generator said you fight a monster.
37:51 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a randomly derived do that or even do it at home on a half that I have the college buy for you.
37:56 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was,
37:58 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_01]: there might be a way and I don't know if it's worth it, there might be a way to use technology as much as we want to hate on AI and all that.
38:06 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_01]: To make something like this work, but it kind of didn't.
38:10 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't bad, but it was too cumbersome.
38:14 --> 38:15 [SPEAKER_00]: The exposition's a lot.
38:15 --> 38:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, whenever I play a new game, I've learned about myself over the, you know,
38:23 --> 38:24 [SPEAKER_00]: 28 years that I've been alive.
38:24 --> 38:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I've learned that I'm not good at listening to instructions.
38:30 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I just need to play the game.
38:31 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:31 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And if I just play the game for a minute, I'm going to like fumble at first, but I'm a quick learner, and I'll pick it up, especially if I just sometimes I'll just watch people play for a minute, and then this you can't like you do need to engage quickly, but
38:44 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you do on the first day of your class?
38:46 --> 38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: A group of students you haven't worked with before.
38:48 --> 38:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I usually give them a pre-read and then have a discussion about it.
38:51 --> 38:52 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not talking about the syllabus.
38:52 --> 38:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a little bit?
38:53 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to talk about grading works in your attendance policy.
38:56 --> 38:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And they read the syllabus.
38:57 --> 38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow.
38:58 --> 38:59 [SPEAKER_00]: See, I have.
38:59 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If I have an ensemble or whatever, or okay, music technology, we have to go over the lab rules.
39:06 --> 39:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't just be like, oh yeah, this is how you back up your files because if you don't back up your files, the computer will automatically delete your files every night at midnight.
39:15 --> 39:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't just put that in the syllabus.
39:16 --> 39:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I explain, I spent almost the entire first class with a little ice breakers and then just going over the syllabus.
39:23 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a group of students I had had for two semesters in the exact same class.
39:29 --> 39:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I've just, you know, level one level to level right.
39:30 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So they know all that stuff.
39:31 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So what do we do?
39:32 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_01]: We spent the entire first class walking through the rules.
39:35 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:35 --> 39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So I actually felt pretty good about, like, then understanding how it works.
39:40 --> 39:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I usually do that.
39:41 --> 39:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean it made it accessible to do those.
39:45 --> 39:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I still do that stuff, but I don't do it the first class.
39:48 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I usually do it the first week will do a period.
39:50 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Have a discussion.
39:52 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Catch the vibe.
39:52 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember what it feels like to be back in a room with other people?
39:56 --> 39:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:56 --> 40:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that that's important, like to recalibrate, coming out of summer, especially.
40:01 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And then usually the second class we do like okay here's a week by week, like what the assignments are.
40:07 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And at once they have a chance to look at it, that's usually how I play it.
40:11 --> 40:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So, try it.
40:13 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
40:13 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm not going to do this again, but like, it's like, but is there a way?
40:19 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Would a half way version of this be worth it?
40:22 --> 40:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's still a lot.
40:24 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like there's lessons from this experiment that I should have taken with me.
40:27 --> 40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you keep it asset?
40:30 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I reward?
40:31 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like
40:32 --> 40:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, currently in my theory in our old skills class, they have an at home, like an app that we pay for that they can practice dictation and stuff and you have a grade for it, but let's say it's worth 10% of your grade.
40:45 --> 40:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You can get so much extra credit by doing enough of it that you end up with, you could get up to a 14%.
40:50 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:51 --> 40:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could actually get extra credit by just practicing a lot, basically even if you're bad at the practice.
40:57 --> 40:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's a similar kind of thing.
40:59 --> 41:00 [SPEAKER_00]: When I did that.
41:00 --> 41:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I have to make it more strengths-based if you're open to feedback, not that you'll know I don't think you'll do this again, but
41:08 --> 41:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So like in these races like what I pick I would pick dwarf I would want five plus experience points for harmonic dictation I think you'd be better that I think I'd be better that and I think I'd want like a little bit of a boost But instead of just giving me the boost make me earn that boost by grinding for loot So and that would be a way to take this idea and just simplify it like if you want 5% and extra bonus on this harmonic dictation piece for our assessment
41:35 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_01]: you need to do grind for loot for like however many hours because that's helping me get better and what I've got to look like mechanical like no color, no fantasy, no game element it's just like I could do that tomorrow in my class.
41:50 --> 41:50 [SPEAKER_01]: the midterm learn.
41:50 --> 41:57 [SPEAKER_01]: If you do the practice and I see you did, because I can check you did the melodic dictation practice on Aurelia.
41:58 --> 42:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm giving you a dictation quiz today.
42:00 --> 42:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You will get a one letter grade boost if you did the practice this week.
42:03 --> 42:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I can do that right there.
42:04 --> 42:07 [SPEAKER_01]: What it's not though, it's asset base, but it's not gamified.
42:07 --> 42:08 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no game element right.
42:09 --> 42:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And the game design is supposed to make the practicing, it's the dopamine hit of rolling six on the, the goal thighs, the dopamine hit of using a skill and kind of proverbially or literally high-fiving somebody when they use a skill that benefits everybody and you all got the question right.
42:26 --> 42:27 [SPEAKER_00]: The gambling aspect of it.
42:27 --> 42:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The gambling aspect does it, right?
42:29 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we want to isolate is how can we like leave more up to the chance, but always being in the students
42:35 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_00]: best interest in terms of asset building and growth.
42:37 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't really know how to do that without being covered with some.
42:40 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:40 --> 42:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I haven't.
42:42 --> 42:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:42 --> 42:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:43 --> 42:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we're going to leave it at that for now.
42:45 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_00]: What did your students think of it?
42:46 --> 42:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great question.
42:47 --> 42:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember super detail.
42:50 --> 42:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
42:51 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember it being a little overwhelming and everybody felt the TDM of it, but I think people thought it was kind of cool.
42:58 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Different.
42:58 --> 43:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But what I don't know is did it actually help.
43:01 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, did they, I think they were more engaged in the class than they normally were?
43:06 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Does it mean that was all positive?
43:08 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And doesn't mean they actually got better.
43:09 --> 43:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, did they actually practice, I was surprised the honor system element, like they were kind of honest with me but like, yeah, I didn't really practice this week.
43:16 --> 43:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like,
43:18 --> 43:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the game you thought the game was cool, but you didn't play it.
43:22 --> 43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things I think are cool that I don't do.
43:24 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Zelda is cool, and I'm not playing Zelda right this minute.
43:28 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish you were.
43:31 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So like I don't know that they were, they got better.
43:33 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't help.
43:34 --> 43:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
43:35 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like your whole educational system would have to be structured in a way that is this way for it to really maybe not need a lot of data.
43:42 --> 43:43 [SPEAKER_00]: This was one semester.
43:43 --> 43:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, up to 12 people.
43:45 --> 43:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:46 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if you say these 12 students perform better than the 12 students they had the previous semester, there's too many variables to isolate to make that.
43:52 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just too small of a data set.
43:54 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
43:54 --> 43:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
43:56 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I came away a little bit like I okay.
43:59 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I'd stayed at that college I probably would have refined yeah, but I felt a little when I got the job here like a little bit of
44:09 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I can just put that on the table.
44:10 --> 44:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got bigger fish to fry now.
44:11 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have a full time job.
44:12 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any quality of data from your students?
44:14 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And you like course evaluation feedback or comments?
44:16 --> 44:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I have course evaluations.
44:18 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know where they are.
44:19 --> 44:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
44:20 --> 44:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder what they said.
44:21 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, in that even, I found like a pre-servey.
44:25 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:26 --> 44:27 [SPEAKER_01]: that I had made.
44:27 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have the data, but I found the pre-survey I'd given them.
44:30 --> 44:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That was asking like, what do you want to improve on?
44:32 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of the rules?
44:33 --> 44:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I after we explained it, I gave it.
44:35 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm looking at it right now, wasn't my dossier.
44:38 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_00]: What?
44:38 --> 44:42 [SPEAKER_01]: What I don't remember, and what I couldn't find is a post-survey.
44:42 --> 44:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I know damn well, I wanted to know how it went.
44:44 --> 44:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you already probably gotten this job in Boston at that point?
44:47 --> 44:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So you were like, see ya, post-survey?
44:50 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, actually, I think I didn't hear of this job until June or something.
44:54 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
44:54 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when July, it was a really frickin' fast man turned around.
44:58 --> 45:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And so no, that semester would have already been over, but but I might have already been a little bit like over it.
45:04 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I already knew the writing.
45:06 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I probably wanted to just fix it myself before I even worried about this.
45:09 --> 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what if the students are gonna tell me shit I already know?
45:12 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That said, I know that I asked feedback.
45:15 --> 45:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't have any of it a room number what it was.
45:18 --> 45:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Even the instruction sheet is like, I think that you like you I understand how you work and I work in the kind of similar way, but like do you even remember writing this or did you just like black out and then you like came to it was like there if you understand something about me.
45:35 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The me that you knew is similar to this me, but the me that you know now is quite different.
45:39 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that.
45:40 --> 45:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The me that you know now has learned frankly how to individualize the way that I deliver information to people who don't think like I think.
45:49 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:50 --> 45:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this rule set.
45:53 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was already good at that kind of in like localized ways.
45:56 --> 46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, by the time I got my job now, I was already good at teaching the content and the class and the way that people could understand.
46:03 --> 46:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think I would still explain something like rules to the game in a way that would fit me.
46:10 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is, I'm going to give you really detailed, that if I read the 30 page, first chapter of the rules, handbook to the role-playing game we made from over a decade ago, I'm sure it reads in a way that caters to exactly my type of brain.
46:23 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, even this does like the first thing you must do in character creation is you must choose a name for your character.
46:29 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Once you have done so, you may choose a race.
46:31 --> 46:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Next, you must describe to me a quick backstory of your character.
46:35 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you, then you may choose a, it's very like,
46:38 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, not harsh isn't the right word, but it's like, stern.
46:42 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_01]: it's procedural.
46:43 --> 46:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like technical right now.
46:45 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very procedural and like you're in a power, you are the, what would you call it?
46:50 --> 46:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the, not the game master, but.
46:53 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Dungeon Master.
46:53 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like it's much like you're hugely in a power position.
46:58 --> 47:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And now when I see you, I mean, I haven't seen you in the classroom for like probably 10 years, but even when you teach me things, you are more catering towards my point of view.
47:08 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And this seems more progressive.
47:11 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_01]: experts like I think I mean you don't have to tell me I don't need I haven't even looked at the instructions since I mean I looked at it to remind myself how it works but I haven't looked it through the lens.
47:21 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I since then had had design curriculum that is that like I have to communicate I'm writing white papers for the provost of the college who's barely going to read it to be able to skim it and still get what you need.
47:32 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like
47:33 --> 47:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I've had to learn that not everybody thinks the way I think, and it's a problem if I only write that way, right?
47:40 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So these are the things that if I had actually cooked this idea, I would have figured it out.
47:45 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's kind of fun to like build my character and I- It's the fun as part of the gameplay, right?
47:50 --> 47:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And then like all this stuff was like, oh gosh, what is that?
47:53 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_01]: at the end of the day was all kind of a little bit too much of an obstacle when it was supposed to empower them to want to practice and what it did was just make class a little more tedious and they maybe didn't practice more.
48:05 --> 48:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Shields of stretched him.
48:07 --> 48:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Spreadstema.
48:09 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Spread STEM is like when you go, I'm not quite singing, but I'm kind of singing.
48:14 --> 48:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not quite a German term.
48:15 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_00]: No, pass this class.
48:17 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, Spread STEM.
48:18 --> 48:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not.
48:19 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's quite a thing.
48:21 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
48:21 --> 48:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So, that's the spread STEM.
48:23 --> 48:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the thing about this is jargon.
48:25 --> 48:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know it's funny.
48:27 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the names of things are made.
48:29 --> 48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I want them to understand what a class and gold are.
48:32 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But the wizard of Nyquist or whatever priest of Nyquist, that is.
48:36 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_01]: bullshit.
48:37 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And I told them this is just, I'm using music terms.
48:40 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:40 --> 48:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Just flippantly, it has nothing to do with anything.
48:43 --> 48:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
48:43 --> 48:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's a barrier, though.
48:44 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's just a compass.
48:46 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Call a part-day compass.
48:47 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a compass.
48:47 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what is, what does it do?
48:49 --> 48:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It removes a second curse caused by a rupture of suicide.
48:56 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know why there's two curses involved now, and then there's the detest shade dagger removed the third curse if you miss a bunch of classes you have to have a lie, but it has nothing to do with the whole card tape, it should though, does that bother you?
49:14 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just trying for fricking catchy terms.
49:18 --> 49:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
49:19 --> 49:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the, but it's very flawed.
49:21 --> 49:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
49:22 --> 49:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:22 --> 49:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's a thing I did.
49:24 --> 49:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's awesome and you should be proud of it.
49:26 --> 49:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's a really cool idea.
49:29 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It is just the execution piece that you forgot that you were going to have to be the one that executed it.
49:34 --> 49:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you could write this and market it and sell it as curriculum to someone, I think that's great.
49:39 --> 49:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not going to be the person doing it.
49:41 --> 49:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be doing coding everything.
49:43 --> 49:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.
49:44 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what I like is that I have done it.
49:46 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that I tried it.
49:47 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that.
49:48 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it didn't, it never like derail.
49:49 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We wasted some time.
49:50 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, I didn't let it take over.
49:52 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like there were probably days.
49:54 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember.
49:54 --> 49:56 [SPEAKER_01]: There were probably days when I was like effort.
49:56 --> 49:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
49:56 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys, okay, skipping goals.
49:58 --> 50:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even remember to take a 10, and that's why we don't have an 10, and 10, and it's false because I can't remember to do it.
50:02 --> 50:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, what I'm glad though is that I did do it because it was a learning experience for to realize how kind of cumbersome it was, both for them and for me, as the person who actually has to administer, I was bright-eyed and bushy tails at this point.
50:18 --> 50:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
50:18 --> 50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was all about that.
50:20 --> 50:26 [SPEAKER_01]: trying anything and everything to give myself more experiences that would honestly get me a full-time job.
50:26 --> 50:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I get that.
50:27 --> 50:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And let's stand out in a pile of people.
50:29 --> 50:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I would not be surprised if my cover letter to this job that I got mentions and gamification, because back then also like that was trying to do with online things.
50:41 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_01]: No one done that yet.
50:42 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
50:42 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright folks, check this out.
50:44 --> 50:47 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an excerpt from that cover letter.
50:47 --> 50:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This is from 2015.
50:49 --> 50:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely going for a lot of buzzwords here to try to get that gig.
50:54 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Through the assessment of and creation of student learning outcomes, I have discovered new ways to reinforce the college and division's mission statement through the content of my courses, as well as my role in the department.
51:06 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I am always searching for innovative ways in engaging my students.
51:09 --> 51:16 [SPEAKER_01]: This spring, for instance, I am testing a gamified musicianship curriculum to help encourage student practice.
51:17 --> 51:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And my teaching was recently filmed for inclusion in a college instructional video on collaborative teaching practices.
51:24 --> 51:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Now this cover letter is dated January 25th of 2015, which tells me, maybe I was two weeks into actually testing this gamified curriculum.
51:34 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So I really had no idea how it was going to go at that point.
51:38 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know if it was trendy as much it was like kind of new educational, it's like a project based learning came out and everyone was like, you got to do PBL, PBL's everywhere.
51:48 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And this might be foreshadowing to sub to the other higher ed combo, but music education is trapped in like a very 19th century method of growing that I think certain like search committee might go.
52:00 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_01]: This dude used like D&D in the classroom, that's super nerdy, but at least he's trying something that isn't line up, saying, okay, sit down next, okay, I'm going to slap your wrists like I'm just showing that you're, you know, you're to take wrists and bigger to innovate and like be in that you're just a generally creative person that isn't scared to act on their creative ideas and that goes or benefits.
52:22 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's funny now when I'll look at a resume and I'll see someone like fresh at a grad school and I read their cover letter and it's like,
52:28 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the class, I had a dynamic upside what do they call it?
52:31 --> 52:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not inverted class room.
52:33 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, uh, flipped.
52:34 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:35 --> 52:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
52:35 --> 52:35 [SPEAKER_00]: A flipped class.
52:35 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, Oh, honey.
52:37 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
52:38 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to stop doing that a year after you get here because you're going to be like, Oh, my God, I've got a committee to prep for.
52:42 --> 52:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to write them in curriculum of like,
52:44 --> 53:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Plaster works if like you do for you have to frontload your work and then like if you do it all and say okay I'm going to grind all summer and flip my classroom listeners that means that the students are essentially the easiest ways they're doing the learning on the themselves yes so like you're recording a lecture that they're watching at home is the easiest example.
53:03 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when you get into class, the assumption is you've already listened to the lecture you've already done the reading and now you can work on applying that skills which in like Bloom sexonomy or like how we learn the learning of information and the recalling information is pretty low level and like the synthesis or applying or using that information creatively is like higher level.
53:23 --> 53:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and like my music tech class is totally flipped.
53:26 --> 53:27 [SPEAKER_01]: They do all the viewing.
53:27 --> 53:29 [SPEAKER_01]: They watch the way stuff are coming in the last time.
53:29 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We may look at their music.
53:31 --> 53:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's still writing and stuff too.
53:33 --> 53:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times in your field, like it's better to do that because you're doing the creative work alone, which I think is a better, to be creative in a classroom while there's too many people around, it wouldn't work for me, for sure.
53:44 --> 53:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So, in my art degree, like I was all flipped.
53:47 --> 53:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we did all the work at home and got together for critiques.
53:49 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: That was actually a then a bad example because it is actually applicable, but like I say that to just as a standard, there's some like innovative teaching technique, they say in their cover letter, and I'm like, how much you want to bet you're going to be two years into your assistant professor ship and you will stop that because you're just like, we got to simplify in the same way that I did, because I've got five classes to teach and it's really enduring when you meet new faculty and they have these like really interesting awesome ideas and it's kind of sad.
54:18 --> 54:19 [SPEAKER_01]: to see it get beaten out of them.
54:19 --> 54:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's said to know that it's going to get beaten out of them.
54:22 --> 54:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And to like have that knowledge.
54:24 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm in that middle period where like I still care a lot, but I'm not doing cookie projects in classes, but like I'm not at the point where I'm phoning it in, like some people that I'm not saying all the long time faculty are phoning it in, but they're definitely our long time faculty that are 100% phoning it in.
54:39 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I got some really great advice when I worked at your college, and I was very young and very inexperienced and learning a lot every day.
54:46 --> 54:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I worked as an adjunct at your school.
54:48 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So that means I was like contracted and we had one big awful shared office space.
54:53 --> 54:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, it was just all the key fob to get you in everything.
54:56 --> 54:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it was just like a lot of despair was happening in that room.
54:59 --> 55:01 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of failed dreams lived in that room.
55:02 --> 55:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't have that jumping adjunct.
55:03 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe we talk about that next time.
55:07 --> 55:07 [SPEAKER_00]: forever.
55:07 --> 55:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wasn't there.
55:08 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like adjunct on the way to other things.
55:10 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
55:11 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And not adjunct because those other things didn't work out.
55:13 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Same.
55:13 --> 55:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the same with me.
55:14 --> 55:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very fortunate to have that.
55:15 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
55:16 --> 55:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I met an older adjunct that had my mentality still.
55:21 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was a really cool guy.
55:22 --> 55:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember saying, you know, like, some of the, you've been here a long time.
55:26 --> 55:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Like,
55:27 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_00]: You still seem like excited and you're still seem like interested and like eager to iterate and he's like, yeah, because every day I leave and I feel like I messed it all up.
55:37 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like every day I leave the classroom and feel like I should have done something different and I wanted to change for next time to be better for my students and he's like, and that keeps me doing it and he said to me better.
55:48 --> 55:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's like the minute you stop.
55:51 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_01]: carrying that.
55:52 --> 56:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So many of you think that you're great at it, you should stop because it's those days that you flub or like you, it doesn't land the way you want it to.
56:00 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That gives you motivation to change and iterate to do better next time.
56:05 --> 56:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, the minute that that goes away, find a different job.
56:08 --> 56:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was really, that was really powerful to me in that moment.
56:11 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a really good, like, he didn't even know he was my mentor, but I really admired.
56:16 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And we could say like I should say at least adjunct faculty, part-time faculty, they're not all, like there are people who do it, they have their day job over and next time.
56:26 --> 56:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to teach a Monday night class.
56:28 --> 56:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what you're talking about that was dreary, what people get really depressed.
56:32 --> 56:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you're doing what what I was doing for three years, which was I'm teaching at all these part-time gigs so I can get a full-time gig.
56:39 --> 56:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Dedited, I'm in a climate ladder and take every possible gig I can do and design curriculum.
56:43 --> 56:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Anytime they ask and show up there.
56:44 --> 56:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:44 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And you do that for 15 years and you still haven't landed your job.
56:47 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a hard life.
56:49 --> 56:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It does not pay well.
56:50 --> 56:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're constantly looking for that as you're grinding.
56:53 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And outside or you are grinding.
56:56 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And and I try to like run to the strength that I run my department as a department chair.
57:00 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I try to include the Azure faculty in our actual decision making as much as possible because I know it other schools.
57:06 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been there.
57:07 --> 57:11 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like the department chair won't even ever come and introduce that stuff to you.
57:11 --> 57:22 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't think that your feel your discipline is set up for a healthier adjunct relationship because your in music diversity of skillset.
57:23 --> 57:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like I can't I don't know anything about the violin right I need the violin professor.
57:28 --> 57:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It in adjunct gig is great in creative fields because you can there's an expression I was learned in my art degree like you get work to make work.
57:36 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:37 --> 57:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So like you adjunct gig teaching couple nights a week you had that skill set.
57:41 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you do private lessons too.
57:43 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:44 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
57:44 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You have that gig and then you can
57:47 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_00]: literally gig, like, at night.
57:50 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, we have long time adjuncts in my department that I think are completely fine being agile.
57:54 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:54 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe even like, trying to like get that full time gig, but some of them are like, what do you mean?
57:59 --> 58:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a jazz guitar player.
58:00 --> 58:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This is just something to do on the afternoons because I don't have a gig.
58:03 --> 58:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
58:03 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's different.
58:04 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Those folks aren't trivial about it.
58:06 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they're like, it's stable and consistent.
58:08 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Like they probably don't.
58:09 --> 58:17 [SPEAKER_01]: There are people like in certain fields if you're talking to like, I don't know, like English professor, whatever, you might find certain people that are just, oh, I'm a poet or whatever, this is on the side.
58:17 --> 58:21 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also probably a lot of them that are like, I'm just trying to get a full-time tenure-trained job.
58:21 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And you think they feel different?
58:22 --> 58:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They at least half of them are professionals.
58:25 --> 58:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:26 --> 58:48 [SPEAKER_01]: more than half of them to have no way if you were like oh I've got five classes for you they'd be like no dude I I only want to be here Tuesday Thursday morning because every other day I'm I'm working right meanwhile if you had a philosophy ad genre you said I have five classes for you they'd like get down and kiss your feet and barely be able to make rent unfortunately and on that note the next conversation we're gonna have we're okay we're gonna have a regular episode next week yep
58:49 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk about something very different.
58:50 --> 58:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're going to talk about higher ed again, but I think we're each bringing in certain things that we think could be better.
58:56 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to put higher ed on a, we're going to take them off with their pedestal.
59:04 --> 59:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And really say, like, there are some challenges in the field.
59:07 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Two seasons of priming and saying, we need to talk about it, we're going to talk about it.
59:16 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Never mind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and me, Mark Poppinny.
59:20 --> 59:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I also produce.
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59:26 --> 59:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We're never music pod on social media and you can also send us an email at nevermusicpod at gmail.com.
59:33 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Never mind the music is part of the lorehounds network.
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59:42 --> 59:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.