If I would, could you? This week, our hosts do another over-the-top deep dive to close Season 2, this time focusing on the dreary 1992 grunge epic “Would?” by Alice in Chains. Nichole takes us through the stages of the transtheoretical model of change, looking through the lens of recovery from addiction (sadly relevant to both the song’s namesake Andrew Wood and Alice in Chains lead vocalist Layne Staley). Mark offers another tongue-in-cheek term paper, this time deconstructing this song’s odd chord progression with the tools of so-called Neo-Riemannian music theory.
A (maybe) helpful tonnetz diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnetz
Other music heard in this episode: Alice in Chains - “Sea of Sorrow”, Alice in Chains - “Angry Chair”, Alice in Chains - “I Stay Away”, Alice in Chains - “Agains”, Alice in Chains - “Down in a Hole”, Alice in Chains - “Hollow”, Alice in Chains - “Heaven Beside You”, Jerry Cantrell - “Leave Me Alone”, Primitive Radio Gods - “Standing By a Broken Phone Booth With Money in My Hand”, Mother Love Bone - “Chloe Dancer/Crown of Thorns”, Candlebox - “Far Behind”, Donald Crockett - “Whistling in the Dark (performed by Xtet)”, Danny Elfman - “Spider Man Main Title”, Alice in Chains - “Whale & Wasp”, Nirvana - “In Bloom”, Alice in Chains - “Man in a Box”, Pearl Jam - “Black”, Alice in Chains - “Bleed the Freak”, Alice in Chains - “Got Me Wrong”, Soundgarden - “Black Hole Sun”
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00:00 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_00]: See how in the major version, the top note went up, but because these are opposites of each other, the minor version, the bottom goes down.
00:07 --> 00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is like music theory 101 stuff we in 101 LAND still, because it seems complicated.
00:14 --> 00:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I just need a snack?
00:15 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I literally never learned any of this while a student.
00:18 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
00:19 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I learned this after I already had a doctorate.
00:32 --> 00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm Nicole, and I'm Mark, and this is Nevermind the Music.
00:36 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_01]: What are we going to talk about today, Mark?
00:39 --> 00:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Today, we are closing season two.
00:42 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_01]: No, my God.
00:43 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_00]: You and I have a fun side track next week, but we are ending season two, and we're doing it like we ended season one.
00:51 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
00:52 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember what our last episode of season one was?
00:54 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of math, math music.
00:57 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a set theoretical analysis of lithium by Nirvana.
01:00 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, set theory.
01:02 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We are doing another override analysis of a grunge artist.
01:08 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_00]: This time, Allison chains.
01:11 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We are doing that for their song.
01:13 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Wood?
01:35 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's so funny with Alice and James because whenever I think of them, I like see Alice Cooper in my head and I know that that's different.
01:45 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It is different.
01:47 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_00]: They both have the word Alice.
01:49 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Alice.
01:50 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, I mean, that's all.
01:52 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a but even like, even now, like, in every time I hear it, then like, that's not Alice.
01:56 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
01:56 --> 01:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't picture Lane's daily with his sunglasses.
01:59 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think it's like a painted face.
02:02 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
02:02 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, that's definitely Alice Cooper.
02:04 --> 02:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So can we just say this title end with a question mark?
02:08 --> 02:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It's wood.
02:08 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_00]: W-O-U-L-D.
02:11 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Question mark.
02:12 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
02:12 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to just leave it there though.
02:14 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to there's enough bullshitting in this episode for me to do a whole thing about punctuation.
02:19 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We already did that too.
02:21 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about that before.
02:22 --> 02:28 [SPEAKER_00]: We did the exclamation point and then we said like what other songs have Yeah, we do question mark in that though.
02:28 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we did exclamation stop in the name of love.
02:31 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_00]: She scared stuff like that.
02:34 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They want you to stop.
02:35 --> 02:55 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
02:58 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that they're lyrics are deep and they're music strong and I'm, yeah, I'm a fan.
03:04 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
03:05 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_00]: To me, I think they feel like they are the least popular of the big four grunge bands.
03:11 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
03:11 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you, can you call them?
03:13 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew the four.
03:14 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Pearl Jam.
03:15 --> 03:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
03:16 --> 03:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
03:17 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Alison chains and big four.
03:19 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say smashing pumpkins, but that's not it.
03:22 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, so especially pumpkins, a lot of there's stuff sounds like grunge, but I think they are.
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_00]: host grunge.
03:28 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think honestly some of that is literally, if you're not from Seattle, you don't get to be grunge.
03:33 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But sound garden would be a little garden right.
03:36 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
03:37 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, maybe those are the season finale episodes for our first four seasons of this podcast in some order.
03:44 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but there are of course other grunge bands, you know, mud honey, mother love bone, other sort of Seattle hard rock groups.
03:52 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_00]: No one's talking about
03:54 --> 03:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, some of those guys we're talking about money, you know, co-band like to talk about money.
04:00 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I think Allison chains is also kind of stylistically distinct.
04:03 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I know the other grunge bands kind of thought of them as a lesser than like they were from the suburbs.
04:08 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: They were like a metal band from the suburbs.
04:09 --> 04:12 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't like a part of the same scene at first.
04:12 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Because like the first of the Grunge bands, it was like Soundguard and Mother Lovebone Mud Honey, these other bands, Pearl Jam, all of them came kind of a little later to the scene, right?
04:22 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say if we think of the big four, follow me on this, because I think you know all four of those bands, even if you couldn't call them to mind.
04:30 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, the pumpkins, stone double pilots, those will put in the post-grunge category and just sort of not talk about for now.
04:36 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That's something.
04:37 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say they each bring a different stylistic flavor.
04:41 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So the point that I talk about this with my students when we cover this stuff like,
04:45 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Grunge is kind of meaningless as a term.
04:47 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_00]: The styles are very diverse.
04:49 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It has more to do with like a scene and an era and a location and a attitude.
04:54 --> 05:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But Nirvana brings the sort of hardcore punk with the Beatles style songwriting and noise rock influences.
05:02 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Sound garden brings the like prog rock and fresh metal.
05:06 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Pearl Jam is kind of more normal, like almost classic rock, like Jimmy Hendrix, guitar
05:14 --> 05:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Allison changed to me brings the two other elements, one of which brought them some disdain, maybe by their compatriots, and that would be the the hair metal.
05:24 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: The hair metal piece.
05:25 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But then also the sludge metal.
05:28 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that a term, you know, blood.
05:29 --> 05:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never heard that, but I'm very, closely related to do metal.
05:33 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
05:33 --> 05:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Very slow, heavy, but you've just had
05:36 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So like the vibe of metal music, but like the frenetic nature of some of the metal bands like it's a turnoff for me.
05:42 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
05:42 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So like early sound gardens fast and heavy.
05:45 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, it's a lot.
05:46 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_00]: This is slow and dreary.
05:48 --> 05:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's an example of the hair metal side.
05:51 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: This is from the first album, Facebook sounds very late 80s sort of hair metal adjacent.
06:17 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like the lyrics are grungier lyrics, but the the tone of the style of the music I wouldn't call that grunge at all if you just played it for me in a vacuum and there's something about the bing bing bing of the ride symbol in the forest that feels so hair metal to me.
06:35 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
06:35 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You can totally imagine the music video that I don't think maybe exists, but then there's angry chair from their album Dirt 1992, which is slow and heavy.
06:45 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_00]: This is more the sludge metal style.
07:07 --> 07:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I will say though, I'd like this music.
07:09 --> 07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to be in a pretty weird mood for me to be like, you know what I want to listen to on my drive home is that.
07:14 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_00]: When you said I like everything I've heard about them, I was like, have you heard a bunch of this?
07:18 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, just this song, we're gonna talk about today.
07:21 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I might do.
07:21 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, here's the deal with Allison Chains.
07:24 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: The Allison Chains is like heavy, dirty, hauntingly beautiful.
07:28 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a place for it.
07:30 --> 07:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of like.
07:31 --> 07:37 [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways like system of down we talked about a few months ago, but like those harmonies are ghostly and weird.
07:37 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So okay, Allison chains before we get into me playing a character making fun of my own profession and analyzing the song, Allison chains occupies a very specific place in Mark lore.
07:49 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was a dress, yes.
07:51 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_00]: They were my favorite band as I went from eighth to ninth grade.
07:56 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a timing thing.
07:58 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_00]: because they released a self-titled album in 1995, and Nirvana was technically done by then, unfortunately.
08:07 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Soundgarden or Pearl Jam had albums in 1994, and then again in 96, but there was this moment where I was getting into that kind of music and one of those bands put out an album, right?
08:18 --> 08:26 [SPEAKER_00]: This is also the year basically that I became receptive to full albums, like in middle school I'd like buy the silver chair album and just listen to the singles or whatever.
08:27 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_00]: At this point though, starting around the era I got into Allison chains, like I would devour it and learn all the songs and get all of their records and that eventually became the way I did, you know, much to my children's secret and it's like, no, we have to start at the first album, let's listen to everything by the artist, right?
08:42 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's something about the timing.
08:45 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_00]: of all of that happening and this band putting out a new album, which is not their best album, their self-titled album is not their best, but it sort of became mine, so to speak, in a way, that wasn't true with Nevermind.
08:57 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Nevermind came out, I was still a little too young, I came to that later.
09:02 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, when Pearl Jam or Soundguard and put out their albums the next year, I was already like fully.
09:07 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, who I was going to become in the in high school at that point, right?
09:12 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Some chains like represents like something that's even now like fundamentally you Just like you'll see crazy sexy cool for me.
09:20 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like no matter what I go like that's fundamentally a part of me because of the time in the place of it Totally and I think there's you know, this is the kid who was listening to boys to men Be getting into school and and I stayed liking boys to men, but I stopped following their new stuff and there's something about that
09:34 --> 09:37 [SPEAKER_00]: mix of beautiful and terrifying that we get.
09:38 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Like so this is The Alson Chains Tune.
09:40 --> 09:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I stay away and this is very beautiful for this section.
09:46 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But then it turns into something very menacing and we get these disturbing vocal harmonies, dissonate chords that sort of held my hand from that transition.
09:56 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So you speak with it.
09:57 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
09:58 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds like puberty.
09:59 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:06 --> 10:07 [UNKNOWN]: Stay fast, we're here
10:22 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like kind of creepy, right?
10:24 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like it.
10:25 --> 10:29 [SPEAKER_01]: There's like a version of me out there that went down this path, you know?
10:29 --> 10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like part of me somewhere.
10:30 --> 10:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was that's from 94, great year for records.
10:33 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But this is one from the record that came out walleye had just become a fan.
10:37 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_00]: This is again.
10:38 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, you can hear that pun unintended.
10:41 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You can hear that mix of beautiful and dark and kind of ugly.
11:05 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like it.
11:06 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
11:06 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's weird.
11:07 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's weird how much I like it.
11:09 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't buy all accounts.
11:11 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't like being so ashamed.
11:13 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's weird.
11:14 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It's heavy, but it's sort of beautiful, right?
11:17 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's, it's the lyrics for me always.
11:19 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah.
11:20 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't even, don't even hardly engage with them.
11:22 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: They're all about drugs, I guess, but well, maybe we'll talk about it.
11:25 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:26 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it, for me, and this goes, you know, we talked about this to the Eagles, we talked about this in other bands.
11:30 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I like the interplay between different singers.
11:33 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:33 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And this band has Lane Staley, sometimes like we heard there, Lane Staley's overdubbed.
11:39 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Interacting with Jerry Cantrell, who's the lead guitar player, right?
11:43 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a clip of them singing together from their unplugged concert.
11:47 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_00]: 1996, this is to this day my favorite of the unplugged records.
11:51 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_00]: This is down in a hole.
11:53 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to start hearing Jerry Cantrell who has more of kind of a normal voice and then we get the more haunting, lane-stately lead vocalist voice.
12:24 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we need to bring unplugged back.
12:26 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The best thing I know is the tiny desk, right?
12:29 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unplugged was needed in that era, too, because everything was so distorted and loud.
12:33 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's strip it down.
12:34 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, everything is so synth and programmed, let's bring some acoustic instruments.
12:39 --> 12:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And tiny desk is sort of doing that.
12:40 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:41 --> 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's, they're not like concert events in this way.
12:44 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, yeah, I felt like the event piece and the fact that everything I didn't like about Ellison chains goes away when they're unplugged.
12:51 --> 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually really true.
12:53 --> 13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Like part of what is so that song actually got me into some songs that then I after the unplugged version started to like more the heavy version, because I could hear the beauty in it as they're 10 year old.
13:09 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was one of their last shows.
13:11 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So Lane's daily overdose a few weeks later, he recovered, but then they went on hiatus at that point.
13:19 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And he did pass in 2002 of a drug overdose.
13:22 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And they replaced him with William Duval eventually and kept going and recorded a few albums.
13:27 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what they sound like.
13:28 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_00]: They still have a similar vocal interplay haunting dynamic.
13:33 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_00]: This is hollow from 2013.
13:51 --> 13:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
13:52 --> 14:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I should also say in the Mark lore, this also coincided with my second and successful, finally, attempt at learning the guitar.
14:01 --> 14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I see.
14:02 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: As a ninth grader.
14:03 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:03 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I tried and kind of failed in eighth grade, couldn't figure it out.
14:06 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And tried again, first on acoustic.
14:08 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the thing about it was,
14:11 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I could play this stuff.
14:12 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't play SoundGuard.
14:13 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I could play Nirvana and stuff, but coming on an acoustic guitar I didn't sound that good.
14:17 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm.
14:19 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_00]: SoundGuard and stuff too hard to play to this day.
14:21 --> 14:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I've got a book over there that's like SoundGuard and chabbed out and I'm like half the songs.
14:25 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, this, what tuning is this, right?
14:27 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But it also probably helped that you were so like emotionally connected to it and it was really cathartic to you to play and I Could learn my first experiences with singing with somebody else.
14:37 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So me and Russell figured out how to play heaven beside you from 1995 and I learned the guitar solos We sort of kind of did kind of a harmonies, but I'm not sure we really could hear it
15:02 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Just went to jail, haven't decided you Yeah, good, good, good, good We were that song
15:10 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, and I love it.
15:12 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.
15:12 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, and like his.
15:14 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So that most of that is Jerry Cantrell, the other guy.
15:16 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that like the deep, the deep first singer, Jerry Cantrell, yeah, he's got a great voice.
15:21 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've got a great voice.
15:23 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I became like, oh, I'm going to buy everything I could find at the record store, including the cable guy, soundtrack.
15:29 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you watch the movie, the cable guy?
15:30 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen the cable guy.
15:31 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Jim Perry forgot the murderer.
15:33 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's true.
15:34 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I see, I really remember the movie.
15:37 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_01]: If you watched it now, I'm sure you would remember all of it.
15:40 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I saw it like in theaters or whatever, and there was one song by Jerry Cantrell solo.
15:45 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess they were on hiatus at that point, the song leave me alone.
16:03 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me shut out this soundtrack because it's the first of two soundtracks we got to talk about today.
16:08 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:09 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_00]: This soundtrack is not on streaming, by the way.
16:11 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been buried.
16:12 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna have to go to my parents' house where my CDs are, I think, stored to be added.
16:18 --> 16:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even think they're in, I don't even think I have them here in Massachusetts.
16:22 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Matthew Kelly, friend of the pod.
16:24 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_00]: You're a big physical media guy.
16:26 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I have long since.
16:28 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, you drive over 3 miles in a U-Haul and bring all your CDs a lot.
16:34 --> 16:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't dare him because I think you think, yes.
16:37 --> 16:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to show him.
16:37 --> 16:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's already halfway there.
16:39 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: OK.
16:40 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but this soundtrack had new songs by Jerry Cantrell, Silver Chair,
16:50 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: as well as the first published recording of primitive radio gods standing outside of broken foam booth with money in my hand.
16:59 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you love that one.
17:15 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: The BB King sample is another great 90s example of a white guy going, this is mine now Putting it in a hit single.
17:23 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly happened in the 90s.
17:24 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_00]: No, oh, yeah, no, but it happened a lot in the night.
17:26 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I think like the movies I don't know.
17:28 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to put any of this.
17:29 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: This is also like of the era of yeah movie soundtracks being like stand alone albums Thank you.
17:38 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so here we go.
17:39 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is the song Wood
18:03 --> 18:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is from their 1992 album, Dirt, which is probably their most popular, successful album.
18:10 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's originally from the soundtrack to the 1992 film singles.
18:15 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And so my question for you, you claim.
18:18 --> 18:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Despite only being a few months older than me, to be a member of Generation X, have you seen them film singles?
18:24 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I claim to be being a few months younger than you, a millennial, and I have not seen the film singles, because if I had, I would be Gen X. Oh.
18:35 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So no show your card you haven't seen it.
18:38 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't.
18:39 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's one of the line of demarking.
18:42 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you need to see it and come back for next season and it's like the two months between us.
18:46 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that the break between Gen X and elder millennial?
18:49 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm worried that you're actually an elder millennial because you haven't seen the movie single.
18:53 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm worried about that too.
18:54 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not want to be associated with them.
18:56 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The millennia is not a bad rap.
18:58 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like what's the most
19:03 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Go, it's pretty millennial.
19:04 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, and I'm sure you have, right?
19:06 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's another.
19:07 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But even though some of the people in that were, were Gen X's, though, if he's well, graph and not only Portman, actually, they're pretty damn old.
19:15 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Never mind.
19:16 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, garden state it is.
19:17 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have seen it.
19:18 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and seen it in the soundtrack, we listened to a repeat at the, it's a very good coffee shop I worked at, which is kind of Gen X coded.
19:26 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Copy records is probably a good millennial movie.
19:30 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I think those are all Gen X people in there, though, aren't they?
19:33 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
19:33 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And Pirate Crates.
19:34 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Anything that came out when we were in high school feels, well, it's Cuspi.
19:38 --> 19:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Cuspi?
19:39 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is the beauty isn't it?
19:41 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But, okay.
19:42 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But this soundtrack?
19:44 --> 19:45 [SPEAKER_00]: This is your crazy soundtrack.
19:45 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
19:46 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about grunge era, et cetera.
19:49 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Allison chains, Pearl Jam, Chris Cornell Solo, plus Sound Garden, plus Mother Love Bone, plus Mud Honey, plus from Chicago the smashing pumpkins, plus screaming trees, and even heart and Jimmy Hendrix are on the soundtrack.
20:06 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_00]: That's like a, who's who for the most part of early in mid-90s, hard rock, but this song was also on dirt, and I would say it's one of their signature songs, right?
20:17 --> 20:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But you wanted to, I, I, I plowed through all the data.
20:19 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: You wanted to talk about just like the iconography of a soundtrack.
20:22 --> 20:24 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about soundtracks with,
20:24 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Which episode Batman returns?
20:26 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Batman returns.
20:27 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
20:28 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
20:28 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he wasn't.
20:29 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I was Batman forever.
20:31 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It was Batman forever.
20:32 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
20:32 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But that, like, brought us to this idea that the soundtrack mattered not more than the film.
20:40 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_01]: but it was another leg of marketing.
20:42 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_00]: For like a middle school or it practically didn't matter.
20:45 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember the cable guy film, but I listened to the album a lot.
20:48 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, like the Garnstate movie was great, but Garnstate soundtrack very, very good.
20:53 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a standalone album, and it's a compilation.
20:56 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was kind of like a callback for us from when we grew up going to record stores and they'd give you like those compilation CDs of like, that's where you like this free CD at Sam Goodie.
21:07 --> 21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have Sam Goodie and California.
21:09 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I never went to Sam Goodie.
21:10 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I always went to the use record store from those parts.
21:12 --> 21:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Mark.
21:13 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Sam Goodie was like 1899 for an album.
21:16 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would get 899.
21:16 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, well, you're cool.
21:18 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, but this idea that you would go there and they'd give you like like a promo record for like other songs like that the label carries.
21:26 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, all right, by all these.
21:28 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Spend two dollars and you'd buy a Hey, brother, can you spare some scar or whatever?
21:32 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Or some punk comp or something.
21:34 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And that.
21:35 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the soundtrack for us, like, did something that tickled that nostalgia for us.
21:42 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just a way to get everything you wanted and nothing more, nothing less, just like forgive the drug.
21:48 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a weird thing to say in this context.
21:50 --> 21:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But you kind of could just
21:56 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I do think most of those 90s soundtracks were headline by like one or two iconic songs, whatever, and then a bunch of filler, though.
22:06 --> 22:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that.
22:07 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem like the single soundtrack is subject to that.
22:11 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And Garnt State, we're sure not.
22:13 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And sounds like Batman forever slash returns.
22:17 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it depends on whether it's forever.
22:19 --> 22:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that meant forever is a random soundtrack, except for the YouTube song and the...
22:26 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: The cable guy soundtrack seems like it has a lot of good sounds.
22:30 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a connection.
22:31 --> 22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: In the Venn diagram, we're connected by Jim Carrey, maybe depending on what Batman is.
22:37 --> 22:40 [SPEAKER_00]: That would be the correct Batman, Batman forever has Jim Carrey.
22:40 --> 22:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so why doesn't that have Alice and James?
22:43 --> 22:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
22:44 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say this is one of their signature songs from probably their most successful album.
22:49 --> 23:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, you know, man in a box rooster, no excuses, these are the other songs that I think are their biggest songs, the ones you've probably heard, did not chart on the hot 100, but actually none of them did, even their most famous songs until check my brain from 2009, which hit number 92, so they like barely scratched, and that's like not during
23:19 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So this song, though, did hit number 31 on the rock charts and most of their songs did, right?
23:24 --> 23:28 [SPEAKER_00]: No excuses actually was a number one hit on the rock charts.
23:28 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
23:29 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So this song was written by Jerry Cantrell about the death of Andrew Wood from Mother Lovebone.
23:36 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So you seemed like you didn't really know Mother Lovebone, but do you remember when we talked about Temple of the Dog like,
23:43 --> 23:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I talked about them for like a minute in one of our first episodes last season because they were an example of what I would have called a two-hit wonder.
23:51 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't remember like what I did yesterday, so.
23:54 --> 23:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Temple of Dog is, you know, the...
23:57 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going home, Greer.
23:58 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, song and then.
23:59 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:00 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Say you love Eva.
24:02 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That song is also about, they're two at wonders.
24:06 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Also about Andrew Wood.
24:08 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
24:08 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So much like last episode, we were talking about the Eagles, everybody knew each other.
24:13 --> 24:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody in the grunge scene knew everybody else in the grunge scene.
24:17 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And Andrew Wood was in a band called Mother Lovebone with Pearl Jam's Stone Gossard and Jeffement.
24:25 --> 24:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're a little more glammy, like when you hear that this is called Grunge, kind of doesn't fit, but again, it has more to do with the scene than anything else.
24:34 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Chloe Dancer, Crown of Thorns from 1990.
24:54 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm looking up some images while you're talking just to orient myself and they do seem very glammy a little more 80's coded still right.
25:02 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So he dies.
25:04 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_00]: He does drug overdose.
25:06 --> 25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And so essentially the whole temple of the dog project that I just mentioned is dedicated to him.
25:11 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: This song is dedicated to him.
25:13 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, that song far behind by Candlebox.
25:18 --> 25:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You know that?
25:19 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
25:22 --> 25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll put it in a clue.
25:23 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna cut my singing.
25:24 --> 25:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm gonna put in a clip.
25:25 --> 25:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll put in a clip, but you know it, you know it.
25:43 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He did die from an overdose and he was roommates with Chris Cornell.
26:02 --> 26:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, for a time.
26:02 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_00]: They were all connected, right, and so this song seems to be specifically about addiction and also about people who passed judgment on others, right, possibly related to that.
26:14 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm about to switch into some very performative music theory paper writing, let's over analyze Grunge in the spirit of what I did last year.
26:25 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we want to talk?
26:29 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_00]: through your stuff because if you want to talk about addiction or overdoses and death and things like that, probably too stupid for me to do my thing first.
26:39 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that yeah, I think if I, if you do your thing and then I talk about addiction, it's going to make you look expensive.
26:45 --> 26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also a drag.
26:46 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also a drag to end our season.
26:49 --> 26:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you, well hey, we got fun games next week.
26:52 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so too.
26:53 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:08 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was thinking about the song and now when you're putting it in this cultural context where a lot of these folks, I mean, if you think of every leasinger or every band that you talked to accept Pearl Jam, Eddie Vetter is still with us.
27:25 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, this is Cornel.
27:27 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Cornel and Cobain both died by suicide but very much wrapped up likely in drug use.
27:34 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, and this would very much go he dies from drugs too, right?
27:42 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: in like really sad ways.
27:43 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm reading about specifically Lane Staley and the circumstances around his death are tragic.
27:53 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They're awful and dark because he was also trying to get help by trying to get help and then his accountants notice that he hadn't used any money in a week or so.
28:06 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So they did a well fair check on him and the phantom dead and he was just as hard to say and not going to be hard to hear but he was dead for so long before they found him they had to use his dental records to identify him.
28:17 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
28:18 --> 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was found actively using drugs like the scene indicated that he was actively using drugs when he died.
28:25 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes me think a lot about addiction in general and the song specifically how thematically it's really trying to shift the narrative about addiction and realize that addiction is cyclical and you can overcome it and really speaking towards what we now call like a harm in some ways a harm reduction model for addiction treatment.
28:46 --> 28:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what that means harm reduction?
28:49 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: The way that it's phrased like that harm reduction makes me think that it's about the end result and even if so, for example, maybe treatments that give people some access to drugs so they can slowly get off it or methadone clinics, that kind of thing.
29:07 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Or like safe injection sites and
29:12 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to just sort of being black or white about it.
29:15 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I wrong there?
29:16 --> 29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're right.
29:18 --> 29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Harm reduction is exactly what it sounds like.
29:20 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Reducing the harm associated with using drugs through public health interventions and educational intervention.
29:27 --> 29:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So the assumption that people are using drugs, people are addicted to drugs.
29:31 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: For a variety of reasons, many people believe that addiction is a lifelong disease.
29:42 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We rely on people to initiate change in their own self to overcome addiction or at least learn to live with their learn coping strategies.
29:51 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So we often talk about like rock bottom, right?
29:55 --> 30:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is like the lowest moment that you start to realize that you need to make a change.
30:02 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like a lot of these musicians
30:12 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
30:13 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't allowed to sort of hit the moment that would have prompted the change.
30:18 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they had not enablers, it's like such a loaded word, but they had just a lot of people in their circles.
30:24 --> 30:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
30:24 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Safety net.
30:25 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Safety net.
30:26 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's usually a good thing, probably, right?
30:28 --> 30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a usually a pretty good thing and also in the music industry, there's especially around this time in the 90s, there's like a romanticism around drug use and mental health in a way that we see with a lot of these bands.
30:41 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And when we talked about Lincoln Park previously, the thing that really is really open mass, the Lincoln Park is the mental health challenges dealt with their weren't romanticized.
30:51 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: They were
30:52 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: dealt with in a very tangible concrete way that like it's it's I'm not okay and it's bad like I don't like it right, but in this era, you could argue that people thought of drugs is like a gateway to creativity in some ways and depression also is a good creative and like what is my art if I don't have this to work through it so and I just wanted to bring attention to today because we never really talked about it here is.
31:19 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: something called the trans theoretical model of change.
31:21 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you from have I told we talked about this?
31:24 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
31:25 --> 31:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you want anyone to change any behavior, do you think it would work if I just said to you?
31:32 --> 31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you were just did in living your life and said, hey Mark, there's something about you that you need to change.
31:37 --> 31:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you say, like, okay, cool, I'll get right on that, or would you push back a little bit?
31:43 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It depends on what it is, but most likely it's not going to work.
31:46 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like what you need to like make a change.
31:50 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I suppose I would need to come to the realization myself.
31:52 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
31:53 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you are a trusted friend and the change that you're suggesting, hits at some actual deep-seated like desire I already have that I want to change, maybe, but like if I'm dead set against that, no.
32:08 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm for the record, not a trusted friend.
32:12 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that, yeah, that's the takeaway here when you think about this trends, the theoretical model change or any change in general, is that the person needs to come to it on their own.
32:21 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So, usually we think of this in terms of addiction that there's several stages, so the first is like a free contemplation stage that you don't really have any interest in changing your behavior.
32:33 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't feel like your behavior is wrong or bad.
32:36 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you enter this contemplation stage where you start to think like, okay, my behavior is problematic, at some point I'm probably going to need to change, but that's not today.
32:47 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Everything's kind of still fine today.
32:49 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So, can I ask you a question about that?
32:51 --> 32:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Like a free contemplation change phase.
32:54 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's a lot of people who have let's say a bad habit.
32:57 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I don't want to look at like heroin addiction or whatever, but like yeah someone who smokes like someone who doesn't exercise enough for doesn't eat healthy like smoking Being an actual real addiction, but one that you can still function in your life more than with heroin and food can be associated with addiction or whatever.
33:15 --> 33:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Some will often be like, yeah, I'm sure I know I should quit.
33:18 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that contemplation at that point or is that still just pre contemplation?
33:23 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm sure I should quit.
33:24 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_00]: This stuff is bad.
33:24 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, drink too much.
33:25 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I should quit.
33:26 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Where are you?
33:26 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Because most people I think that have a problematic habit aren't.
33:31 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're crazy.
33:32 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_00]: This is, this is totally fine.
33:34 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they know they don't want to, but they still do it.
33:36 --> 33:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's that still feels maybe pre contemplative, right?
33:40 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Pre contemplation is you have no intention of changing behavior.
33:44 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
33:44 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Plenty of people say, oh, I should quit with no actual intention to change, but they just know they should.
33:50 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So which is it?
33:50 --> 33:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it the intention or the the desire?
33:53 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_01]: pre contemplation is no intention and no desire.
33:56 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
33:57 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
33:58 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: They can recognize it's bad, but still be like, I don't care where I smoke cigarettes and it's bad.
34:04 --> 34:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We're all gonna die anyway.
34:05 --> 34:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Either they don't care or they're have low enough will to change or.
34:11 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:12 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it is like they're self-loathing enough that they're like, well, I deserve it.
34:15 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if it is bad.
34:16 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, I don't care if it shortens my life.
34:18 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I like smoking stuff.
34:19 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do it.
34:20 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Like full stop.
34:21 --> 34:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so well, we can even, I think it's better to keep it a little bit lighter.
34:26 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to make talking about this.
34:28 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though the lane, but it's a little bit less extreme than what you describe as lane.
34:34 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
34:36 --> 34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So contemplation is the what you're talking about is like, you know that it exists.
34:41 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you know smoking is bad.
34:43 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know that heroin is bad, obviously, but you still don't have any commitment to action.
34:48 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So the examples you're giving are people that are in this contemplation moment.
34:53 --> 34:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like people sit there for a long time.
34:55 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_01]: People sit there for a very, very long time.
34:57 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it indicates like no commitment to action, just this idea.
35:01 --> 35:03 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I should make a change.
35:03 --> 35:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
35:04 --> 35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about it, but I don't have any steps in place, right?
35:07 --> 35:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
35:08 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_01]: After pre-contemplation leading into contemplation, a shift happens that you begin preparation that you prepared to take action, so stay with smoking, right?
35:19 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You get rid of all your cigarette, you say, okay, this will be my last cigarette.
35:24 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: After this weekend, I'm quitting, and with you throw away all your lighters, you throw away all your cigarettes, right?
35:30 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you make a plan that involves like getting in the contained gum, right?
35:35 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of the preparation piece for these musicians, that is probably a very hard thing to do because you have a lot of people in your life and in your circles that are using as well.
35:47 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's probably very hard to break that cycle.
35:50 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Plus with heroin addiction, we know that the physical detox from it is very, very, very
35:57 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
35:58 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's not the most challenging detox of all the drugs.
36:01 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The only drugs in training spotting.
36:02 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:03 --> 36:04 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a heroin detox.
36:04 --> 36:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a heroin detox.
36:05 --> 36:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It will not kill you.
36:06 --> 36:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:07 --> 36:11 [SPEAKER_01]: There's only one drug detoxing from will kill you without medical intervention.
36:11 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's alcohol.
36:14 --> 36:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
36:14 --> 36:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is kind of wild when you think of how accessible that is.
36:18 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Like your body just goes into shock.
36:20 --> 36:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll have two jurors and die.
36:22 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Your person, you need safe medical detox for any of any addiction in my point of view.
36:26 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And many people's point of view.
36:28 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But for alcohol addiction, you need benzodiazepines like volumes or something to help your nervous system regulate this kind of stuff.
36:35 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But heroin or, and other, well, it's just agony or whatever.
36:38 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll feel like you're dying, but it won't really you.
36:40 --> 36:44 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, so this is what is this model called again, the trend side of your in orchestra.
36:44 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what's weird, but no, it's called the trans the radical model of change.
36:49 --> 36:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Trans theoretical model change.
36:50 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So stretches across multiple theories, like no matter what you're applying this to.
36:55 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting change follows this model if you talk most substance if you're talking with behavior change.
37:00 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_01]: This way or stop.
37:02 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's great.
37:02 --> 37:04 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be finding theory.
37:04 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have free contemplation, contemplation,
37:09 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And then action is the next action where you initiate the plan you make a plan during the preparation stage and action is when you modify your behavior you change it and this is a reference in the song so okay yeah let's get to it so right like you've got the lyrics.
37:25 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have like, I've broken it up.
37:26 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I like chunks.
37:27 --> 37:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So when we talk about pre contemplation and contemplation, this first denial into this awareness, he's saying, so I made a big mistake.
37:36 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I tried to see it once my way.
37:37 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: He's recognizing
37:39 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's so I made a big mistake try to see it once my way.
37:43 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Try to see it much.
37:44 --> 37:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that an appeal to somebody else?
37:47 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to like think of like to recognize that I'm I made a mistake and I think of how my perspective was at that time.
37:54 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I know I'm wrong, but at in hindsight, it made sense.
37:58 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:58 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:59 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's this defensiveness, right?
38:01 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they shift into contemplation, acknowledging like this big mistake, but still rationalizing it.
38:06 --> 38:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:07 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't decided to take action yet.
38:08 --> 38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: They're just recognizing that something's broken here.
38:12 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And then later, he talks about preparation in a way that references that social system I was discussing and like, if I would could you.
38:21 --> 38:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That ending, if I would could you, you mean, if, yeah, what could you, yeah, that's exactly what that means.
38:32 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_00]: At the end.
38:33 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: the way I'm interpreting it is this desire to take action like he wants to take action and change, but he needs a support system to change with him because could you?
38:44 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Could you, too?
38:46 --> 38:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I had read that this is it's addiction, but also people judging each other.
38:49 --> 38:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, huh, it's like a lack of, you see, right?
38:54 --> 38:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he's writing about maybe his own experience,
39:02 --> 39:06 [SPEAKER_00]: actively addicted, but also other people who are blaming.
39:06 --> 39:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:07 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew for his own failure to get out of it and also maybe blaming the friend group for not helping him and pulling him out of that.
39:15 --> 39:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:15 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of connections throughout the song about him engaging in some level of transference for his own experience and when he's living through like kind of attaching that to wood.
39:32 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, I was today years old.
39:35 --> 39:38 [SPEAKER_00]: How did that not come up when I was researching this good?
39:38 --> 39:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like the word would and then his Andrew would.
39:40 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's that strange, such a strange title for the song.
39:43 --> 39:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not called Into the Flood Again, which is like the hook.
39:46 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you even think into the Flood Again, that speaks to this like, signical, like funnel nature of addiction that this model really reiterates.
39:55 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And you haven't gotten to that point yet about the, in this trans Theoretical model.
39:59 --> 40:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That it's not like a circle.
40:01 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Think of it more like a spiral or a smaller attack and then in action then during this action stage you start to modify your behavior and it's really really vulnerable you really have to analyze everything around you and then after action comes this maintenance phase like you initiate action you you make changes.
40:24 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But addiction is a life long battle, right?
40:27 --> 40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you have to have a maintenance plan.
40:30 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So for alcoholics, maybe that looks like AA, getting a sponsor like one day at a time, that mantra, one minute at a time, just kind of living through it.
40:41 --> 41:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But keeping up that action becomes really challenging, especially when you're in a social system that the addictive action is still happening outside of you, like that's why a lot of people when they go off to rehab, they don't come back home, right, they stay where the rehab was or they moved to a third place because coming back home puts them back in the system and it's really important in my opinion during recovery to to create a new system.
41:09 --> 41:16 [SPEAKER_01]: a new social system in place that supports sobriety and offers a lot of resources to help you continue to engage with sobriety.
41:16 --> 41:21 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why service work is so important in addiction because you're giving back to the community, you're like part of it.
41:22 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like when we talk to about cults that same thing, but like you get so indoctrinated in the new system that you need it and it needs you in a way that feels healthy in this concept.
41:33 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So
41:34 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_01]: we go into action and maintenance, but then inevitably what happens is a relapse.
41:40 --> 41:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So in recovery and addiction, we say relapse is a part of recovery and expect to relapse to happen.
41:48 --> 42:09 [SPEAKER_01]: In every time you relapse you like you go back to the beginning right this contemplation pre contemplation actions all of that but like you're just kind of cycling up and give you starting at rock at the bottom and you're like slowly going in these circles to climb up and up and up and up and up and up and up and steps forward nine steps back but still like you made that one step right.
42:10 --> 42:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you think about this trans-theoretical model, you often see it displayed like in an image as a circle, but it's really like an upward funnel.
42:19 --> 42:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:20 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that, you're trying to climb up, right?
42:23 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So this relapse, the cyclical nature of change in the lyrics.
42:28 --> 42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: He's referencing that like into the flood again, same old trip it was back then, right?
42:33 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That you're just, you're kind of stuck on this weird treadmill, right?
42:37 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And this weird cycle.
42:39 --> 42:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So the trans the radical model talks or relapsed not as a permanent failure, but just as a part of that formation to learn more the next time.
42:49 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe the next time you learn, okay, I can't go to that house.
42:53 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't hang out with those people.
42:55 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not going to be healthy for my recovery.
42:58 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_01]: The thing in this culture in 90s grunge, if you left that social system, you left
43:05 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_01]: a lot behind.
43:06 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't just like you hang out with different friends.
43:08 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like your entire life.
43:10 --> 43:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And lives of other people.
43:12 --> 43:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone in your band and your management in the system that you're a part of, like relies on you.
43:18 --> 43:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a tremendous amount of pressure.
43:20 --> 43:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could imagine how to some sobriety might seem like a selfish choice in the system.
43:30 --> 43:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I imagine a lot of the end, I don't want to speak to every member of Allison chains, though they did have two members that passed their first base player.
43:40 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the band dynamics is, you could have several guys in the band using
43:45 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_00]: but only certain ones are absolutely hooked and strong out about it.
43:49 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And so some of those guys might be like, we can keep doing this.
43:54 --> 43:55 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean sobriety?
43:55 --> 43:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm fine, right?
43:56 --> 44:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying they are fine, but people do handle things differently though, right?
44:00 --> 44:03 [SPEAKER_00]: In the sense that if you have somebody in your band who
44:04 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_00]: is still in that phase of pre contemplation.
44:07 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you mean?
44:08 --> 44:09 [SPEAKER_00]: This is fine.
44:09 --> 44:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I can continue this and some of those guys think of some of the old boomer rock stars that have been doing that lifestyle still often on for since the 60s.
44:18 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you're in a band with one of those and you're someone who's really at the point where you've hit your rock bottom or maybe you you're trying to take action.
44:28 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_00]: But
44:29 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_01]: the pressures of like you're ruining it for everyone else sort of could be a perception now of course there's bands where they say get clean or will fire you but that's not every band right and then it also speaks to study and like even if we back up from heroin like as that's where it seems it's heroin's in very addictive secrets are very very addictive I know plenty of people that can smoke one cigarette every now and again and not get addicted to it
44:53 --> 44:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And that person will be hard to be around with if you were needing to be completely separate.
44:59 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, I smoked for years.
45:01 --> 45:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I still smoke, I think I said, like, in my dreams, I still smoke, like mentioned.
45:04 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could not.
45:06 --> 45:08 [SPEAKER_01]: If I smoked one cigarette, it's done for me.
45:08 --> 45:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like 100% back in and that's because of my personality, my biology and my history.
45:15 --> 45:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And that, all those variables speak to something we're going to talk about in season three.
45:20 --> 45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: If we haven't yet called the diathesis stress model.
45:23 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_00]: which we've done the list and we've talked about it.
45:25 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And that speaks to these ideas like how come some people get addicted and some people don't?
45:29 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
45:29 --> 45:32 [SPEAKER_01]: How come some people get depressed and some people don't, right?
45:32 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_01]: How come you couldn't, you couldn't have two twins living in the same house with all the same variables.
45:36 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And one has anxiety and one doesn't like what the difference there.
45:40 --> 45:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of that's broken down and this under the staff.
45:43 --> 45:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a stress model.
45:44 --> 45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm adding it to my season three list.
45:46 --> 45:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of the song and this band, it's a very sad and very, very common story.
45:52 --> 46:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was a talent and he died too young and so did a lot of his contemporaries.
46:00 --> 46:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And I often think, just generally in music, where would we be?
46:04 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_01]: If Kirk O'Bayne must still live, if Lane's daily was still alive, like where would we be?
46:10 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Just Cornell was still alive, right?
46:13 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is one of those weird moments where this is a song about a death of someone else, but then one of the performers himself passed.
46:22 --> 46:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think some of those most cherished soundgarden songs are about these struggles, and then he didn't make it out of that, or talking about Lincoln Park, the same, like to listen to the song later after it's had the ending it had.
46:37 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like we should have helped.
46:39 --> 46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard for me.
46:41 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard for me.
46:42 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a moment that I thought about going into like addiction as a subfield of psychology and I learned really quickly that it wasn't emotionally available to me because I've lost a lot of really really good friends to addiction and really sad ways.
46:58 --> 47:00 [SPEAKER_01]: and we should have helped.
47:00 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_01]: We knew when we didn't do anything and we should have done something.
47:03 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And that regret really hinders me from working in addiction now because I see my friends and all the people.
47:11 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard to remember.
47:12 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's too much.
47:12 --> 47:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's too much.
47:13 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's good to know that like you learn things about what's available.
47:17 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So, as personally and professionally, to like keep our peace.
47:21 --> 47:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I hear the song and I see what happened to him like we should have helped someone should have done something and maybe they tried to I don't I don't and you can write in please let us know.
47:34 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they tried, and it didn't work, and that's common to, because until anyone feels an intrinsic desire to change, change won't stick.
47:44 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just the way it would even if you do like that relapses hard.
47:48 --> 47:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's super duper hard.
47:49 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Chris Cornell, I don't even think Chris Cornell was actively using at the point that he killed himself.
47:54 --> 48:03 [SPEAKER_00]: There was enough that had transpired that was too much, I guess, like there's weird things with that, though, where like he apparently had kind of been doing well.
48:03 --> 48:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So people were very surprised by that.
48:05 --> 48:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But well, a lot of times, too, when people relapse because there's so much to talk about here, your tolerance changes so much that you use the same one you used to.
48:13 --> 48:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
48:14 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:14 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:15 --> 48:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And you overdo it.
48:16 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
48:17 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I see.
48:18 --> 48:31 [SPEAKER_01]: right you're like oh well this is what I know and then you do that and that will work for you two years ago and then also like your tolerance changes based on where you are and who you're with and that's not like it's like it's a physiological thing like if you always
48:32 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_01]: This is really interesting.
48:33 --> 48:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like so say you always smoke weed, like you smoke a ton of weed.
48:37 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But then one day you decide to smoke weed before school.
48:39 --> 48:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you go to class, you look on my gosh, I'm so much higher now than I was when I was in my house.
48:44 --> 48:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not just in your head, like physiologically you are higher in that new place because your body so conditioned to be on drugs in that other place.
48:53 --> 48:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you're in the new place, it hits you harder.
48:55 --> 48:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not in your head, like it actually does.
48:58 --> 49:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like did like rat studies on it, it's cool on putting it on the season three list.
49:02 --> 49:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, we're out studies.
49:03 --> 49:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
49:03 --> 49:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called like, I think behavioral conditioning or something like our environmental conditioning.
49:09 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really cool.
49:10 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And the song's on the list, psych principles on the list.
49:13 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing it.
49:15 --> 49:23 [SPEAKER_00]: This is really interesting, really a bummer, considering I'm going to adopt a hosting my tongue firmly in my cheek and make fun of music theory.
49:23 --> 49:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But thank you for bringing that up.
49:26 --> 49:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we need an ad break.
49:29 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm putting an ad break here and listeners, when you come back, after having purchased the items that the ads were trying to sell you.
49:36 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_00]: You will be cleansed and ready to not hold it against me if I'm about to be really nervous.
49:42 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's you actually will be cleansed if you buy the colon clones, but I've been getting ads for.
49:47 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
49:48 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
49:49 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
49:50 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually pretty funny.
49:51 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:08 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's imagine an undergraduate music major.
50:12 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, maybe let's say I get tar player.
50:15 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here.
50:15 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not in the music theory, not at all.
50:19 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine this guy actually views his theory teacher.
50:21 --> 50:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I'm saying he.
50:23 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
50:25 --> 50:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know who this is based on.
50:27 --> 50:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he views his theory teacher as kind of an enemy.
50:30 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_00]: One who actually hates real music.
50:32 --> 50:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, trying to put rules, right?
50:34 --> 50:40 [SPEAKER_00]: This theory teacher and this student don't know the meaning of music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.
50:41 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_00]: They haven't heard that yet.
50:42 --> 50:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So somehow, though, he made it through our hero here.
50:46 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Made it through the first few semesters of music theory.
50:49 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But not buying it, does not think this is valid, does not think this is valuable, the professor dares to assign our hero a presentation on the harmonic meaning of a piece.
51:01 --> 51:02 [SPEAKER_00]: You choose the piece.
51:03 --> 51:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the harmonic meaning the chord progressions.
51:06 --> 51:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
51:07 --> 51:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, this called student wants to subvert the process and basically make their teacher come to regret the decision.
51:14 --> 51:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
51:15 --> 51:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but instead of choosing Beethoven or Mozart or whatever, he thinks he's being clever.
51:21 --> 51:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Choosing a piece, he thinks doesn't make much sense harmonically.
51:26 --> 51:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And he thinks that the professor will not like that.
51:30 --> 51:42 [SPEAKER_00]: If this song uses a bunch of random chords, that is just going to throw into question the entire point of music theory and will infuriate this music theory teacher and thus our protagonist will win.
51:42 --> 51:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, have I set the stage?
51:44 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like cut from the pages of my diary.
51:48 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh.
51:49 --> 51:51 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, your music major history.
51:51 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So he chooses wood.
51:53 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically with the goal of I'm going to show that this is all bullshit.
51:56 --> 51:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the goal.
51:57 --> 52:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So he brings his analytical skills to the table.
52:01 --> 52:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So what he starts with is a Roman numeral analysis trying to use functional harmony.
52:06 --> 52:08 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the five chord going to one.
52:08 --> 52:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do an analysis and I'm going to show that this piece defies theory, right?
52:13 --> 52:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Screw my teacher, right?
52:15 --> 52:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So we start with the risks, opening this song, very cool catchy riff here.
52:41 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I like it in part because it's got a really cool baseline, and I feel like the base is turned to low in a lot of this grunge stuff.
52:47 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how I feel about a strong baseline into it.
52:51 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've got two chords.
52:53 --> 52:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It goes F minor and then E flat minor, but this is weird because neither one of those could be the tonic.
52:59 --> 53:07 [SPEAKER_00]: E flat minor is not a McKee of F minor, and F minor is not a McKee of E flat minor, but it doesn't sound like it's changing to weird keys or anything.
53:10 --> 53:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not really sure what to label this, so it moves on to the chorus.
53:35 --> 53:36 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, well that's clear.
53:37 --> 53:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like we're in B-flat minor.
53:38 --> 53:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So it goes B-flat minor to G-flat.
53:41 --> 53:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So 1 to 6.
53:44 --> 53:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe it's in D-flat, going 6 to 4, but either way, the verse now makes more sense.
53:50 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_00]: The verse and the riff core progression, the F minor in the E-flat do makes sense in the key of B-flat.
54:14 --> 54:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So, if B flat miners the key, that's minor five going to four, which is kind of weird, but those do make sense, but this doesn't tell us anything, that's, those are room the numeral labels, F this, this kind of isn't doing anything.
54:30 --> 54:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Also though, this song, this section starts with a Viper Slap.
54:35 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And that'll probably piss off the teachers so we're doing the right the right thing.
54:39 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Also Jerry and Lane are singing in parallel fifths here, which is illegal for certain styles of heartwriting.
54:51 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_00]: That'll really piss him off.
54:52 --> 54:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds so good.
54:54 --> 54:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It does.
54:55 --> 54:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds weird, though.
54:56 --> 55:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's part of why parallel fifths are not allowed in certain context.
55:00 --> 55:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But okay.
55:01 --> 55:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So our protagonist then looks at the outro, which he thinks is the best part of the song.
55:06 --> 55:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the outro.
55:27 --> 55:28 [SPEAKER_00]: and it is pretty badass.
55:28 --> 55:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But our core progression, D-flat G, G-flat E-flat.
55:31 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's three, sharp six, flat six, and four, or maybe, yeah.
55:38 --> 55:44 [SPEAKER_00]: None of this makes sense, which is sort of what he's trying to do to subvert the whole thing, but he's worried.
55:45 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes two little sense that he's gonna get a bad, great.
55:48 --> 55:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it seems like he's proving himself.
55:52 --> 55:56 [SPEAKER_01]: or like I don't I'm not sure what his goal is.
55:56 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to work for him.
55:57 --> 56:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the subversion is possibly he's still has to write a paper.
56:01 --> 56:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:01 --> 56:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing to be toned in cheek and subversively insult your music theory teacher and the whole field of music theory by writing a paper, but it can't be three paragraphs long.
56:09 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be 5 words.
56:10 --> 56:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just like proving himself right.
56:12 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_00]: two right though, so our anti hero, yes, realizes this isn't going in the right direction.
56:18 --> 56:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He's about to think crap, even though it's got the virus lap in the parallel fifths.
56:21 --> 56:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:22 --> 56:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I need a new song.
56:23 --> 56:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to start over.
56:24 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_01]: He needs an action stage.
56:27 --> 56:29 [SPEAKER_00]: He needs an action stage.
56:30 --> 56:31 [SPEAKER_01]: to change his behavior.
56:31 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought we were cold turkey cutting off the first half of the conversation.
56:34 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sorry.
56:35 --> 56:36 [SPEAKER_00]: You're bumping me out now.
56:36 --> 56:39 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but I'm just saying that it's trans the erotic look.
56:39 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You can apply that.
56:40 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You're right.
56:40 --> 56:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even change anything.
56:41 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Even change even if the change is in misguided attempts.
56:45 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
56:45 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
56:46 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
56:47 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he's going to relapse.
56:48 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You know it.
56:49 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Our antihero storms off from the college bountiful musical library.
56:54 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
57:00 --> 57:04 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a copy of David Lewin's generalized musical intervals and transformation.
57:04 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's it for 1987.
57:05 --> 57:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This is your week a moment.
57:07 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
57:08 --> 57:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Our hero has unlocked some ideas related to neo-rimonian music theory.
57:15 --> 57:15 [SPEAKER_01]: course.
57:16 --> 57:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Hugo Riemann and I might be saying that wrong.
57:19 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't speak German.
57:20 --> 57:23 [SPEAKER_00]: He only really has a small amount to do with this.
57:23 --> 57:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Hugo was a German musicologist and composer in the late 19th century.
57:29 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So quite a while ago he developed a lot of ideas about how to analyze music.
57:33 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So actually the whole idea of chord function and functional harmony like this chord means tension and
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_00]: He actually invented that idea.
57:43 --> 57:45 [SPEAKER_00]: That was his term, at least.
57:45 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He popularized the term.
57:47 --> 57:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But he also came up with ideas like harmonic dualism, like the chord has its opposite.
57:51 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.
57:52 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And this eventually leads to ideas like Utonality, which is a concept invented by Harry Parch or negative harmony, which is something.
58:03 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we'll also be overthought in a final episode of a future season of this podcast.
58:08 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
58:08 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a lot of ideas about upside-down chords and things like that, but also he invented the kind of most traditional form of music theory.
58:19 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But the idea that each triad, each chord has a duality has a negative version of it, and that we can transform a chord simply into another chord through following a simple operation inspired.
58:34 --> 58:44 [SPEAKER_00]: some music theorists starting in the 1980s to come up with a new way of looking at music and they named it after him, even though this was like a hundred years later, right?
58:44 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So we call it neo-rimonion analysis and neo-rimonion music theory.
58:50 --> 58:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And what this is is a way to look at something that people call triadic a tonality.
58:56 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
58:57 --> 58:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Triad, what's a triad?
58:59 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Triad is a group of three.
59:03 --> 59:13 [SPEAKER_00]: A triad when we think of triads, we think major minor, and then there's also augmented diminished, but usually they're major and minor, but what's a tonality when things are not in tune?
59:13 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
59:14 --> 59:15 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they're not.
59:15 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_00]: When they're not in a key, tonal music means it's in a key.
59:20 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_00]: A tonal music means it's not in a key.
59:22 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of a tonal music doesn't use triads at all.
59:26 --> 59:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It uses dissonant.
59:27 --> 59:30 [SPEAKER_00]: notes, unusual chords that aren't triads at all.
59:31 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes people write music that uses the chords we know and love, but uses them in ways that feel random.
59:39 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:39 --> 59:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And in an unusual order.
59:41 --> 59:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So here are a few examples.
59:42 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the composer Donald Crocket 1999.
59:46 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_00]: whistling in the dark.
59:48 --> 59:49 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the ex-tet plane.
59:50 --> 59:54 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hear like a bunch of major chords in a row that are kind of random.
59:54 --> 59:57 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't make sense according to a normal key.
59:57 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a tonal, but it's not dissonant.
59:59 --> 01:00:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just major chords.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:30 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you read something that everyone loves and you're like, how come I don't love this and you think like, maybe they're all just pretending to like it because it makes them like seem smart to like it.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I feel like this music is you don't like it, but I don't like it.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you you were going to be like, I love this because it like makes you feel smart to like it.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Donald Crockett was one of my teachers when I was a graduate student and so better believe if I was at a concert of his I was going to talk about how much I liked it.
01:00:48 --> 01:00:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do like that piece.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I do like Donald Crockett's music, but the story of being a grad student is going to concerts and telling everybody how awesome it was even in it.
01:00:56 --> 01:00:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You were like that.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Obo Solo was not very good, but you're a friend of mine and I'm going to tell you how awesome it was.
01:01:01 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I saw like a book.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But actually, you don't like that.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:04 [SPEAKER_00]: See, I like try to get to it.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to like it.
01:01:06 --> 01:01:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't like it.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw our play once.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a stage representation of a book called Parable of the Sewer and afterwards there was like a talk back and everyone was talking about it and I was like I hated it and I think you're all just like pretending not to hate it so you can feel smart.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible.
01:01:24 --> 01:01:25 [SPEAKER_00]: People definitely do that.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's a maybe more accessible example.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:42 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Danny Elfman, the theme 2002 from Spider-Man is the main title and you're going to hear a bunch of triads, but it's a weird progression that doesn't really follow any of the traditional pathways of functional tunnel harmony.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the Neo Romanians, this is music theorists like Julian Hook, Richard Cohen, David Lewin, Dimitri, to Moscow, Brian Heier, Henry Coupenhauer, these guys are trying to fill a gap in analysis, like this music is not so a tunnel that we use the A tunnel methods, like set theory.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:23 [SPEAKER_00]: From last summer.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:26 [SPEAKER_00]: but also not tonal enough, we can use functional harmony.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they're dealing with music where the chords are kind of random.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what we're interested in is not a key, a tonality, but how one chord relates to the next chord that happens.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is more about voice leading and transformation.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Period of shhh.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Trans, you're so close.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Theoretical model transformations from one chord to another, nothing to do with what key we're in.
01:02:53 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: A chord is more closely related if it has more tones in common.
01:02:58 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So C major and C minor have only one note different.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, P.E.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: turns into an E-flat.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:17 [SPEAKER_00]: That is very closely related, but C2D major have no notes in common, and so they would be considered in Neo-Ramanian analysis to be quite distantly related, right?
01:03:19 --> 01:03:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So our hero reads this whole book because fuck music theory, obviously I have to read the whole book, right?
01:03:27 --> 01:03:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And he gets to work seeing if this toolset could be used to subvert even harder right his music theory teacher harder.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Loki though he secretly like learning at all.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is going to be a problem with the problem for him.
01:03:43 --> 01:03:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So knowledge.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's how near Romanian analysis works.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:49 [SPEAKER_00]: You basically take a triad.
01:03:49 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_00]: This only notably only works with triads and really only major and minor triads.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And it also doesn't work on seven cores and stuff too.
01:03:57 --> 01:03:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So it only really works for this type of thing.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:03 [SPEAKER_00]: There are three basic transformations you can make to a chord.
01:04:03 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Each one has a label and we get fancy letter names.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Just a schema here, right?
01:04:10 --> 01:04:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Love a schema.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly, the transformations have to be reversible.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you do the R transformation to C major and it turns into A minor,
01:04:20 --> 01:04:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It must also be true that if you do the R transformation to A minor, it gets you back to C major.
01:04:28 --> 01:04:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you do the LP and R transformation successfully from C major to pull you to C sharp minor, by definition, in Neo Romani and analysis, if you start with C sharp minor, and then do the LP and R transformation, it would get you back to C major.
01:04:42 --> 01:04:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You with me?
01:04:43 --> 01:04:44 [SPEAKER_00]: No way, right?
01:04:44 --> 01:04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: No way.
01:04:45 --> 01:04:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's start at the beginning here.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:48 [SPEAKER_00]: The P transformation.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The P transforms.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:51 [SPEAKER_00]: P stands for parallel.
01:04:51 --> 01:04:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:55 [SPEAKER_00]: If you take a chord, you turn a major chord into minor.
01:04:56 --> 01:04:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You take a minor chord.
01:04:57 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It turns into a major.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all the P transformation is.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_00]: C goes to C minor.
01:05:03 --> 01:05:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's the P transformation going from major to minor.
01:05:07 --> 01:05:12 [SPEAKER_00]: One note changes.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And now we'll do the opposite.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll apply that P-transformation to the C minor.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:21 [SPEAKER_00]: We raise the third, the middle note, up a half step back.
01:05:38 --> 01:05:39 [SPEAKER_00]: There aren't that many minor chords in Grunge.
01:05:39 --> 01:05:42 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot weird as it is, right?
01:05:42 --> 01:05:45 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of major triads in Grunge music.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It has to do with just the, I think the overtones of a guitar really distorted out power chord in the guitar.
01:05:51 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fine, right?
01:05:52 --> 01:05:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fine, right?
01:05:53 --> 01:05:55 [SPEAKER_01]: You would really equate like minor with Grunge.
01:05:55 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Not all true, but it's generally true, especially else in change.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet you some garden does more than anyone.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But even then, a major chord.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's whale and wasp, 1994, starts G minor and then the next phrase flips to G major.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an example of the P transformation.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
01:06:30 --> 01:06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:06:30 --> 01:06:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also notably not very grungy.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: No, but hey, everybody, mark here in the edit.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:44 [SPEAKER_00]: We actually talk about this later, but Nicole thought it would be smarter for me to mention it now before I get into all the crazy detail.
01:06:45 --> 01:06:50 [SPEAKER_00]: If you check the show notes, there's a link to something called a tonnets, which is a tone net.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: which is basically a visual representation of all the stuff that I'm talking about.
01:06:54 --> 01:07:00 [SPEAKER_00]: If you follow that link, you'll see a wiki article that has a bunch of blue and red triangles.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:03 [SPEAKER_00]: The red triangles are major triads.
01:07:03 --> 01:07:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The blue triangles are minor triads.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you go in certain directions, you get each of the transformations I'm talking about.
01:07:11 --> 01:07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Take a look.
01:07:13 --> 01:07:14 [SPEAKER_00]: or maybe don't.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So the R transformation R stands for relative, okay, goes from the relative minor to the relative major and vice versa.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So on a C major chord, we would raise the top note, the fifth up a whole tone to A.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So it becomes A minor.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:37 [SPEAKER_00]: C goes to A minor through the R transformation.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's an example of that, put to good use by one of the big four.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:49 [SPEAKER_00]: This is in bloom by Nirvana, 1991.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:54 [SPEAKER_00]: We see a B-flat chord turning into a G minor chord and going back.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, if we take the R transformation on a minor chord, you can't just raise the note up because that won't bring you back.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: What you do there is the lower note, the root goes down a step.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So the R transformation of C minor would actually bring us to E flat.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:32 [SPEAKER_00]: See how in the major version, the top note went up, but because these are opposites of each other, the minor version, the bottom goes down.
01:08:32 --> 01:08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is like music theory 101 stuff, we in 101 LAND still, cause it seems complicated.
01:08:40 --> 01:08:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I just see a snack?
01:08:41 --> 01:08:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I literally never learned any of this while a student.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I learned this after I already had a doctorate.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that makes me feel better.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: To be clear though, audience, I am, I do not have a music theory PhD.
01:08:53 --> 01:08:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a composition doctorate.
01:08:54 --> 01:08:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I took a bunch of music theory, but so that this is probably more grad students.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:00 [SPEAKER_01]: This is near Romanian theory.
01:09:00 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, many of these people.
01:09:02 --> 01:09:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, check.
01:09:02 --> 01:09:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, here's an example of that transformation.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:04 [SPEAKER_00]: This is,
01:09:05 --> 01:09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Allison chains man in a box from 1990.
01:09:07 --> 01:09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:13 [SPEAKER_00]: We go from E flat minor to G flat major following the R transformation.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first two chords.
01:09:33 --> 01:09:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, that's all right.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so funny.
01:09:36 --> 01:09:41 [SPEAKER_01]: The more I learn about the music, like the artist behind the music, the more I like the music.
01:09:41 --> 01:09:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Go figure.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I've always loved that song.
01:09:45 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So one more basic transformation.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the L transformation, which stands for leading tone exchange.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my goodness.
01:09:51 --> 01:09:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're gonna shift to the median to the submedient.
01:09:54 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So in a major triad C, you would move the route down a half step.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So C becomes E minor, the L transformation.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful move.
01:10:07 --> 01:10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that one.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Black by Pearl Jam 1991.
01:10:11 --> 01:10:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Same chords.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: C goes to E in the pre-chorus.
01:10:15 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh,
01:10:38 --> 01:10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That's my favorite one.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So of course, all of these are the reverses always true.
01:10:45 --> 01:10:46 [SPEAKER_00]: That's part of the point.
01:10:46 --> 01:10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So if for a major chord you lower the route by a half step, for a minor triad, you would raise the fifth by a half step.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So C minor would then become a flat major.
01:11:01 --> 01:11:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's C minor to a flat major.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And here we go, bleed the freak by Allison Chains 1990.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:12 [SPEAKER_00]: In the verse and the chorus, we go B flat minor to G flat major.
01:11:27 --> 01:11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That only gives us access to three chords.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: If you do the P, the L, or the R, you could go from C major to E minor, C major to C minor, or C major to A minor.
01:11:40 --> 01:11:41 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it, that's not enough.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do they do?
01:11:43 --> 01:11:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got secondary transformation.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So are you bundled them together?
01:11:46 --> 01:11:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You chain them together.
01:11:48 --> 01:11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Our hero is learning.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, you could do a P and then an L.
01:11:52 --> 01:11:55 [SPEAKER_00]: which would be major going to flat six.
01:11:55 --> 01:11:59 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, C major going to a flat major.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me tell you one of my about to play.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:03 [SPEAKER_00]: You play them in order.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is gonna be C major plus a P transformation, which brings us to C minor.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And then an L transformation bringing us to a flat.
01:12:10 --> 01:12:11 [SPEAKER_00]: You do one and then the other.
01:12:12 --> 01:12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to play that chord, but that's how you would get from one to the other.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what we call a chromatic mediant, which is a common move in 19th century.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It's chords related by third with some wrong notes.
01:12:33 --> 01:12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I might actually want to talk about those next season.
01:12:35 --> 01:12:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's an example.
01:12:36 --> 01:12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to do the backwards version, but here's an example of that from Allison chains.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Got me wrong, 1992.
01:12:42 --> 01:12:43 [SPEAKER_00]: G goes to E-flat major.
01:12:56 --> 01:12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that that's a great song too.
01:12:59 --> 01:12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a good one.
01:13:00 --> 01:13:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So that one, the unplug version is so much better than anything.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it'll be listening to that one, of course.
01:13:06 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So for sure.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the thing, some of our secondary transformations get their own cute names.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's the S transformation which stands for slide, probably named after that Google Doll song.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Which keeps the third and shifts the route in the fifth, up by a half step or down by half step.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's an L and then a P and then an R. So the S transformation is a leading tone, a parallel and a relative in that order, always in that order.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's do that order.
01:13:32 --> 01:13:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the S transformation bringing us from C major to C sharp minor.
01:13:44 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we go from that chord to that chord.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And in minor, we would do it in the same order.
01:13:51 --> 01:13:56 [SPEAKER_00]: We would go for example from C minor to B major.
01:14:07 --> 01:14:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And this S transformation is what we get in black hole sun 1994 sound garden from E minor to E flat major that is an S transformation meaning an L a P and then an R when he says the words no one knows and hides the face those two chords in my
01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:14:39 --> 01:14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: One more.
01:14:40 --> 01:14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: The N transformation.
01:14:41 --> 01:14:42 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think N stands for?
01:14:43 --> 01:14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: S was slide.
01:14:44 --> 01:14:45 [SPEAKER_00]: L was leading tone.
01:14:46 --> 01:14:48 [SPEAKER_00]: R was relative and P was parallel.
01:14:48 --> 01:14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just N. What could N stand for?
01:14:54 --> 01:14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a good guess.
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I think someone on the discord is guessing correctly.
01:14:58 --> 01:14:59 [SPEAKER_00]: They've been fuzzled.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:03 [SPEAKER_01]: They've been second, sorry, second guess.
01:15:03 --> 01:15:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Nathan Fevant, which means something like secondary relative.
01:15:08 --> 01:15:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is an R, an L, and then a P. So basically it's like C major going to F minor.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's down in a hole again.
01:15:28 --> 01:15:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We go from a D chord up to an A chord.
01:15:52 --> 01:15:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So Nicole's typing away trying to get a visual aid.
01:15:55 --> 01:15:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me help you.
01:15:56 --> 01:16:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Look up at tonnets, tonnets, tonnets, folks open up a safari window or whatever on your phone, tonnets, T-O-N-N-E-T-Z.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:15 [SPEAKER_00]: It means a tone net, and the tonnets was developed by Leonhard Euler, I think his name is in 1739.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, it's a lattice diagram of different chord relationships.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But people have repurposed it in the modern era, even though this thing goes back 200 years,
01:16:25 --> 01:16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: or almost 300 years to make a modern one that shows the relationship between different chords in a neo-rimanian context.
01:16:33 --> 01:16:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you look at this and this is good audio podcasting here because there's a visual.
01:16:38 --> 01:16:42 [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at it, each node is a pitch and each triangle is a triad.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Blue is a minor triad, red is a major triad.
01:16:47 --> 01:16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you move north or south, it's a P transformation.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a L transformation, and if you move northwest or southeast, it's an R transformation.
01:16:59 --> 01:17:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can go from one chord, go north to turn a C major chord into a C minor via the P transformation.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then from there, you could go in the direction northeast or southwest to make an L to go to a flat major.
01:17:14 --> 01:17:22 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, and then from there, you could go northwest or southeast to do an R and go, for example, to F minor.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You haven't even told me about compound transformations yet.
01:17:25 --> 01:17:27 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what the secondary transformations are.
01:17:27 --> 01:17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It's multiple of them change together.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you look on the tonnets, you can see that going from C major to, for example, B flat minor is five steps away.
01:17:38 --> 01:17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So a PRPL or an LRPRP, which is funny, because you can go multiple, you can get to a chord through multiple transformations.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:49 [SPEAKER_01]: that's cool.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of is really math way.
01:17:53 --> 01:17:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I'm into it.
01:17:55 --> 01:17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It's now two in the morning.
01:17:57 --> 01:17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:17:57 --> 01:18:01 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, learned this entire theory at damn right.
01:18:01 --> 01:18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's our our way to open the episode.
01:18:04 --> 01:18:04 [SPEAKER_00]: That's just it.
01:18:05 --> 01:18:12 [SPEAKER_00]: What this is is a way to understand the relationship between success of chords even when they don't have anything to with a given key.
01:18:13 --> 01:18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
01:18:13 --> 01:18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: What are its limitations?
01:18:14 --> 01:18:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it only relates to the exact moment.
01:18:18 --> 01:18:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It does not tell you any big picture stuff.
01:18:21 --> 01:18:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't work with dissonant chords like sevens or diminished chords even or augmented chords, but grunge is a bunch of major chords in weird order with sometimes minor chords.
01:18:33 --> 01:18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the new paper.
01:18:34 --> 01:18:36 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the new presentation.
01:18:36 --> 01:18:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a tone net.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what the tonnets is.
01:18:39 --> 01:18:40 [SPEAKER_00]: The tone, not so.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Here we have the verse.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:45 [SPEAKER_00]: We have this F minor and this E flat minor chord.
01:18:45 --> 01:18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He gets analyzing.
01:18:58 --> 01:19:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, from F minor, it's simple.
01:19:00 --> 01:19:08 [SPEAKER_00]: We do an R to get to A flat, then a P to get to A flat minor, then an R to get to C flat, and then an L to get to E flat minor.
01:19:08 --> 01:19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's simple.
01:19:10 --> 01:19:11 [SPEAKER_00]: R, P, R, L.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:28 [SPEAKER_00]: What about the chorus?
01:19:33 --> 01:19:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we have to get to the chorus.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:37 [SPEAKER_00]: First, don't forget, we can't just start the chorus.
01:19:38 --> 01:19:42 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we get the relationship from that E5 minor to the chorus?
01:19:48 --> 01:19:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you asked Nicole, because he's asking for the paper, right?
01:19:52 --> 01:19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:19:52 --> 01:19:55 [SPEAKER_00]: E-flat minor to B-flat is simple.
01:19:55 --> 01:19:57 [SPEAKER_00]: It is our nabin' fair vont.
01:19:58 --> 01:19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:19:59 --> 01:20:02 [SPEAKER_00]: R than L than P. We go E-flat minor R to G-flat.
01:20:03 --> 01:20:05 [SPEAKER_00]: L to B-flat minor P to B-flat.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It's beautiful.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: kind of a cool move.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:18 [SPEAKER_00]: The chorus itself is just the two chords.
01:20:18 --> 01:20:20 [SPEAKER_00]: B flat and G flat, right?
01:20:21 --> 01:20:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is just a P and an L. The same thing we heard in got me wrong.
01:20:28 --> 01:20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So the P brings B flat to B flat minor L brings B flat minor to G flat.
01:20:43 --> 01:20:49 [SPEAKER_00]: hey everybody mark here in the edit or maybe more appropriately mark here grading this paper
01:20:50 --> 01:20:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, that chorus starts with a B flat minor chord, not a B flat major chord.
01:20:54 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure why I'm pretending that it's a major chord.
01:20:57 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So that end that I was very excited about going from the verse to the chorus is actually just an R L. And then the chorus is really just an L. So yeah, so modify a few of the things I just said and also some of the stats.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I talk about later, but this would not be the first time a student or me.
01:21:18 --> 01:21:21 [SPEAKER_00]: made an analytical mistake when doing a paper or a presentation.
01:21:22 --> 01:21:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Luckily, none of this matters, this is all just nonsense.
01:21:27 --> 01:21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: At this point in the analysis,
01:21:29 --> 01:21:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Our junior theorist feels pretty excited and confident.
01:21:32 --> 01:21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he cracked it.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:38 [SPEAKER_00]: He's got highly complex transformation happening in the verse.
01:21:38 --> 01:21:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember that was RPRL.
01:21:40 --> 01:21:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But then a classic in N in the chorus.
01:21:43 --> 01:21:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And then a simple one later in the chorus.
01:21:45 --> 01:21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he gets to that outro.
01:21:47 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember the outro which goes E-flat, D-flat, G-G-flat, E-flat, really made no sense back to D-flat eventually.
01:21:55 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure.
01:21:56 --> 01:21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: He's running out of time though.
01:21:57 --> 01:22:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's going to do the calculations, but he's not going to record any audio demonstrating.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty bad.
01:22:03 --> 01:22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And now, let's say it's fine.
01:22:04 --> 01:22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do we got?
01:22:05 --> 01:22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first, we have an R L R. And then an R PRP.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then an L R L P. And then an R P. And that one's simple.
01:22:14 --> 01:22:16 [SPEAKER_00]: and then LRPR.
01:22:17 --> 01:22:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So our chord progression, E flat minor, D flat, G, G flat, and E flat, back to D flat, gives us that series of transformations and it sounds like this.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds just like RLR, RPRP, LRLP, RP, LRPR.
01:22:55 --> 01:22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: A million percent, like as you were playing it, that's what I was hearing on the end.
01:22:58 --> 01:22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:22:59 --> 01:23:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But then we get to the ending.
01:23:09 --> 01:23:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And the problem with that is that is a D-flat Sharpe 9 chord, which you cannot analyze effectively with near-remoney and it's just so.
01:23:17 --> 01:23:19 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so he's analyzed the whole song.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:21 [SPEAKER_00]: What conclusions can you reach?
01:23:21 --> 01:23:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are eight different types of chord transformations in the song covering the eight chord used.
01:23:27 --> 01:23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: No transformations are of a single operation.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:32 [SPEAKER_00]: All of them at least use a secondary.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Some use even four in a row, you know, like our L-R-P-R.
01:23:38 --> 01:23:46 [SPEAKER_00]: The transformations include seven P's, 10 R's and seven L's, but of course some of these chord transformations could have more than one path.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, next, only three of the transformations include all three of the letters and lastly, no chord transformations in the song use the same combination of operations.
01:23:59 --> 01:24:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So, either that tells us that there are either no patterns or relationships that work,
01:24:08 --> 01:24:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That illustrates a new point that, in fact, the randomness of this core progression is illustrated by the fact that no operations are in common.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So he finishes up his presentation.
01:24:18 --> 01:24:19 [SPEAKER_00]: All research is good research.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So dumps it all in his short video is conclusions are dicey enough that he feels like confident that he's probably going to frustrate the professor and demonstrate how useless all this is.
01:24:31 --> 01:24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But he realizes in horror.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:39 [SPEAKER_00]: that he listened critically to music and possibly learned something.
01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just confirmed in the hypothesis and I think that that's valuable.
01:24:43 --> 01:24:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's still research, right?
01:24:43 --> 01:24:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It's still research and we have to take research for the data it gives us not the data we hope to get.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so garbage, but hey, I did all that enough.
01:24:54 --> 01:24:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You really did, and I'm proud of you, Mark.
01:24:57 --> 01:25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you really proved that you're very much smarter than me and maybe a lot of our listeners about music in general.
01:25:07 --> 01:25:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I learned something.
01:25:08 --> 01:25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you, though, is it helpful, said you learned something?
01:25:11 --> 01:25:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it'll come in handy one day if I ever meet the slack of damics.
01:25:19 --> 01:25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do think like, oh my gosh, look, my God, you guys the fact is what we how we normally approach music theory when it's especially when it's total music doesn't account for weird chords sometimes.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes there is an explanation for a chord that isn't function, you know, and it I'm not saying it's this, but what Neo Ramani analysis gives you is a set of language, a terms and a language to use to describe the movement.
01:25:44 --> 01:25:46 [SPEAKER_00]: between one chord to the next.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can have something like a G-flat minor going to a G major chord and that could make sense and it could have a label of a few letters that gets you from one point to another.
01:25:58 --> 01:26:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But obviously, it doesn't really help in this song.
01:26:01 --> 01:26:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, music theory is a language we use to codify behaviors in music, just like psychology is a language we use to codify behaviors in people.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Season three, up and coming.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Nevermind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and hosted and produced by Mark Poppony.
01:26:30 --> 01:26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You can email us at nevermusicquaditkmail.com and give us a follow on social media.
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01:26:44 --> 01:26:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.