Steve and Anthony dance (and lip sync) with the Devil's Advocate.
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00:19 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Properly Howard, a podcast that reviews classic films and other
00:31 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_01]: starring Al Pacino and Keanu Reeves, this film has it all, courtroom drama, gratuitous nudity, battle over mortal souls, and a splash of Craig T. Nelson.
00:41 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_01]: With me to discuss this film as always, is Dr. Anthony Lidon.
00:45 --> 00:47 [SPEAKER_01]: TV TV TV TV.
00:47 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Steve, how much time have you devoted to Craig T. Nelson's circumcision?
00:55 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_02]: How much time have you given this thought?
00:59 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, since, well, before this movie, I would say zero, since I've kind of been obsessing over it.
01:05 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_02]: The plot of this movie kind of hinges on whether or not cracking up, and it's cut or not.
01:11 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not only that, but I mean, you want to talk about like, perfectly setting up for a sequel, because I don't know.
01:16 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that they have a answer to the question.
01:19 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's very few things like the movie ends and stuff like that, but we're going to just go to the movie.
01:24 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't seen it, um, don't.
01:26 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Just listen to this podcast.
01:28 --> 01:30 [SPEAKER_02]: No way, no way, no way.
01:30 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_02]: This movie is a roller coaster ride.
01:33 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm not a fan of roller coaster is very much like I had a lot of my way to be on a roller coaster.
01:40 --> 01:43 [SPEAKER_02]: There's some people like roller coasters.
01:43 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you like roller coasters and theology, you might like this movie.
01:52 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_01]: If you were on a roller coaster,
01:55 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_01]: and sitting, you know, buckled in, sitting next to one of the characters from this film, which character would you least likely like to be sitting by on a rollercoaster?
02:04 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Jeffrey Jones for sure.
02:06 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah.
02:09 --> 02:11 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I do not want to see what's on your phone.
02:15 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's just pause here.
02:18 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of never want to see what's on anyone's phone, and I know that it's kind of rude now, but I kind of feel like, if you just hold out your phone to me to show me something, nine times out of 10, I'm not gonna like it.
02:31 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the first thing.
02:33 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Your phone has figured out what you like, not what I like.
02:37 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
02:38 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And secondly, I feel like, maybe ask me permission.
02:43 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.
02:44 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I'm gonna say no.
02:46 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny how like for a while it was kind of like a running gag, but now it's just 100% accurate like that like showing people stuff on your phone is kind of like the new forcing people to come and watch your slideshow from your trip.
02:58 --> 03:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'm not the only one.
03:01 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
03:02 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but it's funny because now it's just it just kind of shows like we sort of characterize people that did that as a certain type of person.
03:09 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: The reality is we all just would.
03:11 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We just didn't go on trips or have slide projectors.
03:15 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's too much, it's too much.
03:18 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's usually someone else's trip.
03:20 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's usually, and in your case, it's a literal trip, like someone's falling out of a wine barrel or something.
03:29 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, falling off a building or something.
03:31 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my algorithm now is mostly people getting knocked out in the convenience stores.
03:36 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: for a Malvin off, so.
03:39 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, all right, well, that's a big deal.
03:40 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big deal.
03:41 --> 03:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big deal.
03:42 --> 03:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
03:42 --> 03:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
03:43 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, no, if you were sitting next to Jeffrey Jones, I would want him to ask permission to show me something that it's on his phone.
03:53 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have the opportunity to say no, sir.
03:56 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This movie is such an interesting take, because it's like to really amplify the depravity of this world.
04:05 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: that John Milton has created, Jeffrey Jones is almost like the moral compass, like he's almost, well, okay, for sure he's depraved.
04:16 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and he's also, he's sort of incahudes with like he's going to, he's going to rat them out.
04:21 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know exactly what he's going to rat them out on is he's going to go to the authorities and say, oh, he's the devil.
04:28 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't get bigger the same.
04:29 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, say, Satan's the biggest fish that you can take
04:34 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't really matter what Jeffrey Jones did.
04:37 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, if you can flip them and take down Satan, then it was worth it.
04:43 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It is worth noting that in this movie, Trump blows Satan off.
04:49 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What happens?
04:50 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: In the movie, there's a party in there talking about everybody who's gonna be there and Donald Trump is not checking.
04:56 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_01]: As he doesn't show up, he's not gonna be there.
04:59 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_02]: There's actually a little bit more Trump DNA in this movie Did you look it up?
05:04 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I don't think so.
05:05 --> 05:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you're going to hate this.
05:09 --> 05:21 [SPEAKER_02]: The apartment that Craig T. Nelson is sort of doing his deposition and like rehearsing and Craig T. Nelson sort of sky rise, golden apartment.
05:21 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_02]: That is actually Trump's apartment.
05:24 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so he loaned it.
05:25 --> 05:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He loaned it out and according to Tony Gilroy who wrote the script, Trump would pop by every noun again and see if Charlize was around.
05:42 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_02]: That's something.
05:43 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I love the idea that like we need an apartment that just says rich scumbag, Donald Trump, can
05:55 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Créctine Nelson is sort of a developer.
05:57 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_02]: He's very, very loosely based on Trump.
06:00 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_02]: According to Tony Gilroy, Créctine Nelson is Donald Trump.
06:05 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Huh.
06:06 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:08 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not aware.
06:09 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I also, I wasn't even, I guess I wasn't really paying that close of attention as the credits were rolling.
06:14 --> 06:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So I did not, I did not know Créctine Nelson was going to be there.
06:17 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had sort of like a, not a jump scare, per se.
06:22 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But when I saw him, I was like,
06:25 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I was not expecting it, if you'd listen to the previous episode, this season of properly Howard is all Craig T. Nelson all the time.
06:36 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
06:37 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:37 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:38 --> 06:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to be watching action jacks and after this, we're going to be watching the Incredibles movies, if we're going to watch Poltergeist.
06:44 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not bad.
06:45 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not a bad day.
06:46 --> 06:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're just going to watch the fourth season of coach.
06:52 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
06:54 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: No, had you?
06:56 --> 06:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I had.
06:56 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm sorry, sorry to have to do that again.
07:01 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I know you're not.
07:02 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not sorry.
07:03 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_02]: You went out of your way to pick this.
07:05 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I meant I'm the one that chose it.
07:07 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_02]: So this movie came out in 1997.
07:13 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time, I was kind of like, Al Pacino's or greatest actor.
07:21 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna see everything with Al Pacino.
07:25 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_02]: But I, at that time, I was not into horror movies.
07:30 --> 07:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I did not like horror movies, and so the changing scene where you first see the transformation, right?
07:41 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_02]: You see the demon pace for the first time.
07:43 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_02]: You see the hands over the under the skin for the first time.
07:48 --> 08:01 [SPEAKER_02]: that horrified me that scene lived rent free in my head for a long time and I think I turned off the movie at that point it's like no I'm not into this I don't want to want this this is freaking me out
08:03 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Looking back, it's a pretty tame special effects sequence, right?
08:10 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But at the time, like I can remember thinking, yeah, that was too much for me, and I kind of turned it off.
08:18 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe a decade later, so I realized that this movie is very bad at the beginning at the end.
08:30 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_02]: but there's some interesting spots in the middle and moreover, my initial draw to the movie was Al Pacino, I can't think of an actor who I would rather cast to be Satan than Al Pacino.
08:45 --> 08:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's legitimately interesting.
08:48 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He's watchable, the little monologue at the end where he's talking about little monologue.
08:55 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a big monologue at the end.
09:00 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_02]: where he's, you know, he's, you know, he's, you're all play a little bit of it.
09:04 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began.
09:09 --> 09:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I've nurtured every sensation man has been inspired to have.
09:14 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I care about what he wanted and I never judged him.
09:18 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Why?
09:18 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I never rejected him in spite of all his imperfections.
09:23 --> 09:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a fan of man.
09:24 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a humanist.
09:31 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't look away, like it's, oh no, there's no question, it's, I mean, it's,
09:37 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just say this, this is a little bit like Carly goes way where I was thinking, it's just bad, this is bad, right?
09:43 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm gonna be like, well, why am I so entertained by this?
09:46 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, I'm actually quite enjoying this quite a bit.
09:51 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a little bit like your phones algorithm.
09:53 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I hate this, but I keep, he keeps, I keep watching.
09:57 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so I keep speeding me.
09:59 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_01]: No, like, there was a comic I worked with for a while, and he'd like host open mic nights and stuff, and he was never,
10:05 --> 10:15 [SPEAKER_01]: never funny, like I don't know if he ever said anything funny, but he was so charismatic on stage and his delivery was so, you know, perfect and his confidence was so incredible.
10:15 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he would just watch him.
10:16 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: He would open up the show with like 20 minutes of just nonsense and you're like not a single word of that was funny, but I could not look away and not even like a shot and throw it.
10:26 --> 10:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was just like you're just captivating, he lulls you
10:30 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_01]: into believing what he's saying is going somewhere.
10:33 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_02]: This guy now run to Colton, Oregon, is what you're talking about.
10:38 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But what you're so funny is that like, I mean, that's kind of like, there's a lot of Pacino that, I mean, I don't think everything's jelly, I have not.
10:46 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It famously, like, one of the worst movies of all time.
10:48 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I only caught a little bit of it, like just walked in the middle of it during like vacation stay or something, I just turned it on.
10:56 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I just, I'm like, let's just catch a glimpse.
10:59 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got a little bit before the Pacino scene, and then I went through the Pacino scene.
11:02 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was so, like the movie was just, it was utterly rants that I couldn't even imagine that in context it wouldn't make any more sense.
11:10 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But then it gets to Pacino.
11:11 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And it almost seems like the director's like, I don't really know what to have you do.
11:15 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So just say whatever you want, and it doesn't even have to make sense.
11:20 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Time to movie.
11:21 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And he does.
11:22 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, he's just,
11:24 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: he's just won't shut up and you can't stop watching like this is he's just this is a stream of consciousness patino moment and and they're just letting it happen and that's kind of what he became right and so I think that's this movie to your point.
11:41 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know who you could have cast in this movie to even make you get through the two hour and 24 minutes.
11:46 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It is so bad on so many other levels, but I will say this.
11:50 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this movie understands how to use Pacino, and I think a lot of movies don't.
11:57 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_02]: He's doing a lot of work with his eyes and his yellowed teeth.
12:02 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it's like, just a grin, a flick of the tongue, it's like, most of the film, it's understated.
12:14 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, that is the good stuff with Pacino.
12:17 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know he's going to explode eventually and you want that too, but you don't want that the entire film.
12:28 --> 12:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, it like, okay, well, we're gonna cast the devil.
12:32 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_02]: We need, we need an actor to play the devil.
12:34 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's, there's no other option.
12:36 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_02]: There really is no, I mean, unless Bill Cosby wants to reprise his role, there's really no other option.
12:43 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I can imagine Denzel doing this.
12:45 --> 12:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I could imagine him.
12:48 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, to that point, I mean, but I mean, he kind of is the devil in a training day.
12:53 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could imagine that guy being the true But this film most of the time Pachino is is let me play another scene and and I'm gonna I want to talk about he on next but listen to that ask you a question then Why do you need a criminal part our clients break the law or like anyone else
13:19 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Just tired of sending their business across the street.
13:23 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you offer me a job?
13:25 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking about it.
13:28 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you got talent.
13:30 --> 13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew that before you got it.
13:31 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_02]: This is understated.
13:32 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, this is Pachino just having a conversation.
13:36 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's a great scene just because of the location because it's unsettling that they're on a rooftop.
13:44 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_02]: No railings.
13:45 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_02]: No railings, yeah, yeah.
13:47 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_02]: He's seductive, you know, he's like this guy, the way that that ends is Kino says, what about the money?
13:54 --> 13:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And Pachino says, well, that's the easy part.
13:58 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: This guy has access to power, and yet he, and he, he does come off this kind of like, scumbag.
14:07 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_02]: But man, is this ever the scumbag that's going to give you access to all of your wild streams?
14:14 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So, for a person to play Satan, they can't be all horns and, you know, they have to be properly seductive to sort of buy it and to, you know, if you're going to lay out, if you're going to lay out the temptations, you have to do it in such a way where it almost doesn't seem like it's the devil's idea, right?
14:35 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a scene later where he's saying you should, you should, it's kind of a twin to this scene.
14:40 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, you should drop the case.
14:42 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_02]: It's your wife, you should take care of your wife.
14:44 --> 14:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, you know, Kiano isn't willing to do that.
14:49 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's sort of like the seat has been planted that if you have the killer instinct, if you want to be me, if you want to have all of this, you have to rise to the occasion under pressure.
15:04 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he's almost making Keanu think that that's his own own idea, right?
15:10 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_01]: When there's a theme throughout too, and it's mentioned a couple times, specifically where it's like, is this a test, everything's a test.
15:19 --> 15:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there is sort of, he kind of reveals, right?
15:22 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It reveals the, his motivations and his plan, which is basically, look, it's like, I'm setting traps for you that you're putting the bait in yourself.
15:32 --> 15:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's, it's the classic, it's a classic devil, you know, trope, right, which is, there's always a little caveat or there's always a little, there's always some fine print, but the way this movie does it, which I think is very effective is, is the fine print isn't like because of a slight a hand necessarily, it isn't because, oh, there was a, it was a semantic trick, fine print is.
15:58 --> 16:00 [SPEAKER_01]: you're the one who's put in all this in.
16:01 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, I'm just creating space for it.
16:05 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And well, okay, yes, once I know your nature, once I know what what sin is, is your sin, well, then I just, I, I just present everything through that lens.
16:15 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and this sort of brings up the free will theme later.
16:19 --> 16:22 [SPEAKER_02]: But before we talk about that, I just want to tie a bone this.
16:23 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I think Puccino's the perfect Satan.
16:26 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think we'll have to burn the movie.
16:29 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe both, maybe both.
16:31 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you put him opposite to Kianu.
16:37 --> 16:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're a bigger fan of Kianu than I am.
16:39 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm kind of curious what you what how you receive him in this movie.
16:45 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_02]: But you give him the task of being sort of a southern, small town lawyer.
16:53 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm out from the beginning, but then he doesn't do anything to win me over.
16:57 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
16:59 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't try to watch the new Cape Fear series, right?
17:03 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_02]: No, none of them.
17:04 --> 17:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And your reasoning was, I could just tell that Amy Adams was going to be horrible.
17:10 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Is the accent?
17:11 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It was the accent.
17:13 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I don't understand.
17:16 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: is, so we watch British people beyond British.
17:22 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Are they just better at than we are?
17:25 --> 17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they've been watching American media, they're in tire lives, their accent, they're American accent is going to be better than ours.
17:35 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, because it's wild to me, right?
17:39 --> 17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the Southern accent, like I've done it like to maybe put on an affect
17:46 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whether it's a character I'm doing or quoting somebody, but I think it may be it might be hard to continue it because I know the Southern accent sort of is a broad brush stroke right, but there are different states and different regions of states with the accent is clearly different, so I think that that's part of it right, so I think there's this, I think to get it like, hey, if I'm supposed to be from Gainesville, Florida, I need to sound like this.
18:12 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the temptation might be, well, I can do a Southern accent.
18:15 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I can do a draw.
18:16 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, but maybe that's not, that's not an authentic draw.
18:19 --> 18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So the question is, how authentic do you choose to be, right?
18:22 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, in a movie like this, I feel like any Southern accent will suffice, except for this one.
18:30 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_01]: The Honor Reeves goes through 14 different Southern accents, when he remembers to have a Southern accent, which is not that often.
18:37 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_01]: There are scenes where you go, oh, this was clearly shot on a different day, because he has got a whole different accent.
18:45 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, and there are moments and usually when there's less being spoken where I'm like, actually, that actually sounds like a decent Southern accent.
18:53 --> 19:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, one of the other problems with Keanu Reeves doing a Southern accent is that Keanu Reeves is voice and his cadence is
19:04 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So specifically, Keanu Reeves, that even if Keanu Reeves grew up in Gainesville, Florida, his accent would sound like that probably.
19:17 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is my argument, he's just as who he's, this is what he sounds like.
19:21 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you don't develop a whole different voice.
19:27 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're a baritone, you're gonna be a baritone, but it's gonna have a twang to it, or a draw.
19:32 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, man.
19:33 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're Cheyenne Reeves, and you're from Gainesville, Florida, you're gonna gump it at times.
19:45 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: The trouble is his mother's played by Judith Ivy, and she is a legitimately great Southern actress.
19:57 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And she's not putting on an affect that I can tell.
20:02 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And she is believable from Inesville, Florida.
20:07 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_02]: You put her opposite Kiano when it doesn't work.
20:10 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_02]: You put her opposite Charlize doesn't work because she's too good at it.
20:15 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's something similar happening with Pacino, whenever Pacino and Kiano are acting in the same scene,
20:23 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like chocolate and pickles.
20:28 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't work.
20:29 --> 20:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Crazy Nelson is fine, but then you bring in the heavyweight and now Keanu's kind of exposed.
20:38 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, and this is me being a Reeves Apologist once again.
20:43 --> 20:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that if they had maybe, you're not from Florida.
20:47 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to be from Florida.
20:48 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just take a Midwest state where maybe the accent
20:53 --> 20:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Now he's not having to worry about that part as well.
20:56 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And if he, because again, I do think that there is a very different acting style between Pacino and Keanu Reeves.
21:04 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But like I think Keanu Reeves is great, opposite Dennis Hopper and Speed.
21:10 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, no, no, no, for sure.
21:12 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I could, I could see those working.
21:15 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I kept on thinking about, um, Brom's Socker's Dracula.
21:19 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_02]: When I was Russian this.
21:20 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, when he does British accent.
21:22 --> 21:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it was Keanu with a British accent and it didn't work there either.
21:26 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And that, this one wasn't as bad as that one.
21:30 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the problem, the problem is there's the time.
21:32 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Keanu Reeves is the it guy and he can play this character.
21:40 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: also have like another accent, you know, and because he's such a specific sounding person.
21:47 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, we've heard Pachino, for example, when Pachino puts on certain types of accents.
21:53 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Like in Carlitos way, I mean his Puerto Rican accent kind of comes and goes, you know, Harvey can do it.
22:01 --> 22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Harvey Cytel is Judas and is this is a little odd.
22:04 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the, the, the, well, I love Judas is from the, the Brooklyn Burrow, I guess.
22:10 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But at least, at least, of course, as you had the presence of mine to know, like, yeah, don't try to sound British.
22:18 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, this is going to be too weird already.
22:21 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:21 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Just put on the anyway, it's not going to get from Brooklyn.
22:25 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:26 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: No one's in no one's listening to you when you're on screen.
22:30 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's because your hair is so loud and this I just love how it's like if there was ever It's like well, you don't need to say Jesus like that jeez All right, let's talk about it's talk about this.
22:46 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that the beginning you text me last night that open the opening 10 minutes of this movie Is really horrific.
22:54 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I text you.
22:55 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the worst opening 10 minutes I've ever seen it
22:58 --> 23:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be, and it could be that they'd be getting in the end or bad, but the Pacino, the Pacino nugget in the middle is almost worth it.
23:12 --> 23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, I think you're on to something.
23:14 --> 23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: First off, this is two hours and 24 minutes, and I think this movie should be two hours or less.
23:19 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
23:20 --> 23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of slack in this movie.
23:25 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You were notoriously prudish by nature.
23:28 --> 23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I am.
23:28 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is the films.
23:31 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
23:32 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very sexual movie.
23:35 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:37 --> 23:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And I understand that something.
23:38 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I just need most of it.
23:40 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't need.
23:40 --> 23:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I, so that, look, let me just say this before you continue.
23:44 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make sure that I'm putting myself forward correctly.
23:47 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that if the art requires
23:52 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_02]: a particular amount of sexual content, I'm okay with it, because, and this is a movie about temptation more than anything else.
24:03 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're gonna be dealing with the myriad sins.
24:06 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the lust has to be within them.
24:09 --> 24:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
24:09 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that this movie does get gratuitous, overly gratuitous in an unneeded way at times.
24:19 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And if that makes me approved, then so be it.
24:23 --> 24:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess my, yeah, so what I felt was there are moments in the film where I'm like, for the narrative, again, when you're dealing with the temptation and the lustful moments, I think it kind of makes sense to sort of put you into the character frame of mind, right?
24:42 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But some of it are so drawn out, and to the point where you're like, you're not in that scene anymore.
24:52 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mean, the sequence at the end doesn't, it doesn't, in my opinion, doesn't require all of that to get to where it needs to go, which sequence are we talking about?
25:03 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_01]: The end with the half-sister and Keanu Reeves, it's just, it's pretty drawn out.
25:09 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a little bit Mike.
25:10 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I was, well, because I was going to be in this movie yesterday.
25:15 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And my son walks in right during that scene.
25:18 --> 25:18 [SPEAKER_02]: That's about right.
25:19 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, you're my son's 19.
25:20 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's OK with scene, you know, in our rated movie.
25:24 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_02]: The trouble is that Pacina was very prominently involved in that scene in a very uncomfortable way.
25:32 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:33 --> 25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think, yeah, I don't think your son has a problem with
25:37 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: already content.
25:37 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_01]: He might have a problem with walking in on his dad watching it.
25:40 --> 25:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the family of the case.
25:43 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, for what made me the most uncomfortable is that this is all happening without patino kind of rooting them on.
25:53 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
25:54 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess that's, that's an, that's a good point.
25:57 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is almost like the pits of hell, right?
26:00 --> 26:02 [SPEAKER_01]: This is, this is depravity at its core.
26:02 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You've
26:05 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_01]: uh, cheering on his two offspring about to, um, uh, you know, have, you know, have Targaryen sex.
26:14 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:14 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:15 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
26:15 --> 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So that, that, so I guess my feeling is you've already created a circumstance that is wildly uncomfortable.
26:25 --> 26:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And then to just keep on and like just pouring on the gratuitousness of the stuff that it's like much.
26:33 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels too much, not just from a pretty sense, but now I'm not sure what story you're trying to tell.
26:40 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like you're more interested in this sort of visual than you are the narrative.
26:45 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a really good chunk of moments in this film where nudity would show up or it would be so jarring, that feels like that
27:03 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: the story you're trying to tell right then.
27:05 --> 27:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I, again, maybe I, maybe it's my pretty sensibilities as well, but it's just those moments took me out because they didn't feel like they were required to tell that part of the story.
27:15 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of that, right?
27:16 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So then I start thinking, and anytime a movie has me thinking about what its motivations are, I'm not watching the movie.
27:23 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not in the moment.
27:24 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:25 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there are moments like that where I'm like, well,
27:29 --> 27:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you just trying to make a skin flick now or are you trying to like, is this how important is this is this supposed to make like and then again, is it supposed to make me uncomfortable.
27:37 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I'm already kind of uncomfortable with a lot of what's going on at any more discomfort doesn't necessarily Drive the story home any further like I said just the idea of what is going to happen in that final scene is plenty upsetting to then just keep on drawing out the other part of it.
27:54 --> 27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It just seems I don't
27:56 --> 28:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It did, that's when, I mean, the word tutus, I think is, is, is apt here, especially in a two-hour and twenty-four-minute runtime.
28:03 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like, it was, it was too long.
28:06 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to know when it overstated, when it began to overstate, it's welcome.
28:10 --> 28:15 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that the climax of the film is really the, the patino monologue.
28:16 --> 28:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, to then turn it into like a skin flick, it did not help.
28:24 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, because I think it also felt like kind of undercut what we just were going through, because that's there was a lot of Lot of gravity there, right, and I think because you're supposed to get to that point where, you know, Kiana Reeves is you know, exercises is free will and then the free will, which is sort of his, you know, the Satan is weaponized free will.
28:44 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is, you know, flips, he flips it back on him, essentially, right, and
28:50 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And that part I actually thought was kind of clever.
28:52 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I actually thought, like, okay, I like that too.
28:54 --> 28:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that was the thing, I'm like, how do you beat this guy?
28:56 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He can't shoot him.
28:57 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He's the devil.
28:57 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't take him to court.
28:58 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_01]: What are you going to do?
29:00 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So in the same way that he learns what other people's weaknesses are and sort of plays to it, let me get out of Reeves essentially does the same thing at the end and that's how he, at the time, anyway, appears to beat the devil.
29:13 --> 29:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I like it, okay, so number one, I think that they made a couple really smart choices.
29:20 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Disguide the devil, he's clearly, he's clearly powerful, but he's not all powerful.
29:25 --> 29:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And he may have the same kind of limitations that God has, because what they've decided to do, and I think Toni Gilroy is good at these kinds of things.
29:40 --> 29:45 [SPEAKER_02]: and you build the mythology around it that gives this person limitations.
29:47 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So, in this world, using the biblical mythology, you've given the devil basically the same limits that you're giving God Himself.
29:57 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_02]: man's free will.
29:59 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And so Kiano can choose if he wants to to end this whole, you know, end this whole apocalyptic plan just by exercising his free will.
30:11 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're not going to build a shoot the devil with a gun.
30:13 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not going to build out smart the devil with words.
30:17 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's a superpower.
30:20 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's got the slick tongue and he's he can I guess be in two places at one time.
30:26 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_02]: He can speak any language.
30:28 --> 30:30 [SPEAKER_02]: These powers are not over the top powers.
30:31 --> 30:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It makes you think like if I spend a little bit more time with do a lingo, maybe I could be the devil.
30:38 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So you put Keanu up against the sky and he just he just makes the choice.
30:44 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_02]: A little bit of Lord of the Rings here.
30:46 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you making the choice.
30:48 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_02]: to give up the power, it's something the devil wouldn't ever consider.
30:53 --> 31:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's the devil's weakness, like the devil couldn't conceive of someone who would choose to not grasp power, because he understands the nature of man and the devil has his own level of humorous.
31:08 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
31:09 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So I like that.
31:10 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I like to, and then, okay, so that's kind of a cool ending.
31:14 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And then,
31:16 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It zips me back to the sips me back to the original courtroom scene, which I didn't like in the first place.
31:25 --> 31:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, not the like that, right?
31:27 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember this, please peace of touch, shit.
31:30 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to give, oh no, okay, all right, so does at that point does, just can't or not know that he's gone through this and if, if that's the case, if he doesn't
31:45 --> 31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: all of that conversation with Pachino.
31:49 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_02]: How is he making the right choice the second time around?
31:55 --> 32:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Or, if he does remember, how was he persuaded by Mr. Press Pass guy who's clearly Pachino because it's already revealed that in that other scene?
32:08 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing.
32:10 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So this movie has a strongish finale.
32:15 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_01]: or appearing to be, again, drawn out, gratuitous, all that other stuff, heavy exposition, but I think the exposition kind of works.
32:24 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the point for it to be sort of this, you know, Fausty and, you know, reveal, and then you've got this time jump, right?
32:35 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think your initial thought is supposed to be like, well, by defeating Satan, he essentially,
32:43 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: undoes like that's kind of how it my initial like in the moment interpretation was he undoes the journey because he's but bits set free, you know, he's it's so almost suggests.
32:57 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So going back to the theme of a test is almost suggest that it was a test maybe not by Satan, but by God, right, like it feels feels a little old testament to right like like this was a Joe Black journey to some degree.
33:14 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And so he goes through this test, this awful situation where everything is basically been falling apart because of his own desires.
33:27 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_01]: He, at the end, he makes the ultimate sacrifice to undo it all.
33:32 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you also argue, it's like, well, at this point, well, you're going to give birth to the antichrist,
33:41 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_01]: suicide was probably always on the table for him, but that's neither here nor there.
33:45 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But in that realm, so he gets a second chance, basically it's a second chance at life because he passed the ultimate test at the end and did what was greater for greater for humanity.
33:57 --> 33:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And what he did was essentially was ideal.
34:00 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So when he says Satan loses, you know, he's like, you lose in the Bible.
34:03 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, this is this is the moment in a way that that kind of expected.
34:08 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So he gets a second chance.
34:09 --> 34:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And so now he either has memory.
34:11 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I got the sense that he did have a memory of it, or at least enough to be like, oh, my wife is alive.
34:15 --> 34:17 [SPEAKER_01]: My wife is alive.
34:17 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
34:19 --> 34:20 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I took it, too.
34:20 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But then if you have a memory of it, you're not going to be fooled by the guy who's going to put you on 60 minutes.
34:30 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, but then the moral of the story is the immorality of the story, which just to say,
34:38 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: a human nature at its core is sinful.
34:44 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay, so I took this as kind of like the maybe this time loop has been going on for a long time.
34:53 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe this is maybe this is something that the devil has been putting
35:04 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, and every single time it ends badly for him, but this next time he's like, oh, maybe I don't make him the best lawyer in New York, maybe I make him, you know, celebrity of something.
35:19 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, a celebrity and in any way, in any case, I know that this guy's vice is really vanity.
35:28 --> 35:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And if I know that, and I'll be honest, like, I didn't like the return to the courtroom, but I did like the idea that the devil's been watching the entire time.
35:42 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, it was the transformation of the face at the end and the breaking of the fourth wall.
35:48 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of, it was hokey, but it kind of worked on me.
35:53 --> 36:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, well, I think it, just before you go on, I think that is important because I think the movie at the end says, this was hokey, right?
36:00 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
36:03 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, I mean, it feels like that's the one part where maybe it gets a little more self-aware.
36:08 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like, yeah, now we're watching the kind of like, a morality play.
36:14 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, exactly.
36:15 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's really, and I maybe that's part of the issue, too, is that the movie is that kind of throughout,
36:23 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: but it's not always presented that way.
36:27 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think I looked at it after that, I was like, maybe I'm watching this movie wrong.
36:34 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm looking for something that it's like, no, no, this is supposed to be sort of this of modern talent of this tragic morality play.
36:44 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to have to be over the top.
36:49 --> 36:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let me see you this question.
36:55 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: it's one of my favorite Rolling Stone songs.
36:58 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Paint it black.
36:59 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
37:00 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
37:01 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder if because of that.
37:02 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying they didn't go with sympathy for the devil, right?
37:05 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if that was two on the nose.
37:07 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
37:08 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Because sympathy for the devil is kind of a clever song and I will listen to it.
37:13 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, but it's a little bit of, uh, uh, I don't know.
37:17 --> 37:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I painted blacks is just a much better song.
37:19 --> 37:19 [UNKNOWN]: I think.
37:19 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of feels like he that during one of
37:25 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: paraphrases that song.
37:28 --> 37:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, when was that like when he just talks about how long he's been around who he shook hands with.
37:32 --> 37:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that kind of stuff like it.
37:34 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It definitely evokes that so many names.
37:37 --> 37:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Call me dad.
37:40 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say, all right, let's just go back and let's make a simple tweak.
37:45 --> 37:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So here's my one tweak to improve the movie.
37:48 --> 37:52 [SPEAKER_02]: What if the movie begins when they enter the New York
37:55 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it almost tells you everything you need to know about this couple.
38:00 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It presupposes that are from somewhere where, you know, they're in New York for the first time.
38:05 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_02]: They're seeing an apartment that they couldn't imagine.
38:09 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_02]: They're going from, you know, poverty to the penthouse.
38:14 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And you delete that entire, probably first 15 minutes of the film.
38:20 --> 38:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't this a better movie?
38:26 --> 38:42 [SPEAKER_01]: it gets to the point, because I understand what they're trying to do with the court room scene in terms of like, it gets, see that's a part, it jumps out the gate graphic, right?
38:42 --> 38:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You're dealing with a molestation case, and like that's just your intro to the movie.
38:56 --> 39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you got like, the whole thing with the desk and it's just like, I'm like, I'm already kind of like, again, not trying to be doing the desk is so gross.
39:09 --> 39:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the thing, it's like, and it's gross in a way that's not believable.
39:12 --> 39:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, right, that's, I think part of it too.
39:15 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, now I'm starting to question, what is this movie, what is this movie trying to do?
39:21 --> 39:21 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so bad.
39:21 --> 39:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and not so much as so bad.
39:25 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I understand the intent here.
39:27 --> 39:33 [SPEAKER_01]: The intent is to get Keanu as a lawyer to be repulsed and not want to defend this guy.
39:34 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, he wants to win.
39:36 --> 39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like I still feel like we don't know enough about what's about it.
39:44 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you almost have to know what's about to happen for this any of that to be even palatable and it's not.
39:50 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think-
39:56 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And you hear him say, look, I'll just say this.
40:00 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I entered that case with the clear conscience, but I didn't have it when I walked away from the case.
40:06 --> 40:08 [SPEAKER_02]: That's all you need to say.
40:09 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
40:10 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you're trying it, yeah.
40:11 --> 40:17 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're trying to tell that story, you tell it in a much better way later in the film.
40:18 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Because what you can do is you can have a moment where he talks about that maybe in somewhat more
40:26 --> 40:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And then have it, like, in a back and forth, did you believe he was innocent?
40:32 --> 40:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the point.
40:34 --> 40:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You can kind of get to that and make him admit, without having to go and watch it.
40:39 --> 40:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's so clunky.
40:42 --> 40:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's just trouble.
40:44 --> 40:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It's clunky, that's the problem.
40:46 --> 40:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the morality message that it's trying to tell is coming off in such a clunky and like unsettling way
40:56 --> 41:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You lost me on what what the point is here because it feels like the point is different.
41:02 --> 41:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what I think the movie it's it's fatal fly is there's just there's no subtlety.
41:08 --> 41:21 [SPEAKER_01]: The movie completely lacks it and it doesn't know how to talk about the lust depravity and temptation without hitting you over the face with it and it's and because of that you're like well I don't know
41:22 --> 41:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you want me to learn something or if you just want me to watch this stuff happen.
41:27 --> 41:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, I understand the whole notion of show don't tell, but like, this almost feels like you're telling why showing somehow.
41:34 --> 41:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you haven't really found a way.
41:36 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you're gonna show don't tell, then don't tell, but you do both, exactly.
41:41 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, and but the things that you're telling me are things that you've kind of already shown me in a way that like, if you showed them better, you wouldn't have to tell me, you know, it's like,
41:49 --> 41:53 [SPEAKER_01]: it's like you're revealing your your trick as you're doing the trick.
41:53 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just it's it's it's not it's clumpy.
41:56 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably where we're at here is that it loses itself in in its own execution.
42:01 --> 42:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I do think there's I think this is a I think this is a good concept and I think that there's a good movie here.
42:08 --> 42:10 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I think a good movie shows up every once in a while.
42:10 --> 42:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Even without the genome.
42:11 --> 42:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are some some scenes that feel good, but then there are other scenes that feel like ghost.
42:16 --> 42:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And
42:18 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the jogging scene, like I don't know if you I don't know why you needed that effect.
42:24 --> 42:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it I was I kind of like seen Jeffrey Jones get bludgeoned at that.
42:29 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh sure, that's fine.
42:30 --> 42:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay with that.
42:31 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But like they do like why have you just questioned like the the aptitude of these demons and that's the other thing too.
42:40 --> 42:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the demons exist.
42:45 --> 42:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But they can't help but show themselves a little.
42:49 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I was by that odd.
42:52 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Like they had to be joggers, but then they could be invisible.
42:55 --> 42:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, then why dresses joggers, you're invisible just be invisible.
42:59 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_01]: If you can just cruise around and then possess people.
43:03 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did you put on the track suit?
43:05 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there's a plane with your food element to most horror films.
43:11 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if the monster's really evil, the monster's going to enjoy inciting terror or making you feel a gaslighting you, or making you have to explain its existence to someone who will never believe it.
43:27 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Those little little things that the monster enjoys.
43:34 --> 43:35 [SPEAKER_02]: We must enjoy it too.
43:35 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_02]: We're the monsters at the end of the day.
43:37 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
43:38 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that there's something about, well, let me, let me ask you this.
43:42 --> 43:47 [SPEAKER_02]: If you were going to tweak this movie, because, because I think that there is a good movie somewhere in here.
43:48 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's going to sound, it's not a minor tweak, but I mean, I don't, I guess I haven't seen enough Taylor hack for it really to, and it seems like this is a departure from when I'm looking at some of his other film clips in
44:04 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you need, I think, a director that trusts their ability to convey all of these messages of depravity and lust and temptation without, like a lot of the gratuitous stuff, I think it's not even just a gratuitity of it, it feels lazy and you have so many, you
44:33 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You're throwing all these other things at me, and then by the time I get to the good part of the, if you're pointing like, yeah, there's a really good part in the middle, it's like, yeah, it's hard to get to.
44:40 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard to get to.
44:42 --> 44:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then some good things happen, and then you're like, you're out again, and it's like, there's too much of that.
44:46 --> 44:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I mean, it's like, I know it's not a minor tweet, but I just think that somebody with the ability to, well, easy tweaks are, they're not from the South, just make that easy.
44:57 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: or get a somebody who can get Matthew McConaughey on this and.
45:00 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:01 --> 45:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:02 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
45:02 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.
45:03 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Give me McConaughey in this film.
45:06 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:06 --> 45:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not even a really big McConaughey fan, but for whatever reason, Keanu was the wrong person for this part.
45:13 --> 45:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
45:14 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'll even go a step further, Woody Harrelson, we're probably crushed it.
45:20 --> 45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, and you can't look at them.
45:22 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, this is hard to look at them.
45:25 --> 45:26 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so that's right.
45:26 --> 45:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, ask it on the quote, it's Charlie's there and good at all in this movie.
45:30 --> 45:33 [SPEAKER_02]: No, unfortunately, no.
45:33 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we were in a, having a different conversation.
45:36 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, you and, in a friend of ours are talking about the Odyssey.
45:39 --> 45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think, you guys are talking about how like Charlie's the Huron's great and everything.
45:43 --> 45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and, and, and, and not so fast.
45:47 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's real bad.
45:49 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_02]: She's real bad in this film.
45:50 --> 45:52 [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, she may be worse than Keanu.
45:54 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing with the baby, the baby, the, the, the, the, the thing.
45:59 --> 46:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I was supposed to be horrified about the bloodiness of that scene.
46:04 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I was more horrified with the acting.
46:06 --> 46:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So is there a
46:15 --> 46:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The devil trope is great.
46:16 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I love, I love a, a, a, a, a smooth talking, a Satan, but I do feel that there were times where even that trope was a little bit, like sometimes he's like, I felt like Milton wasn't, like he would always had one move, it seemed like.
46:37 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was always to be a little lustfully creeping.
46:40 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would have liked to have seen him be,
46:42 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_01]: a lot more sympathetic.
46:43 --> 46:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the better scenes is when he's talking about the chicken.
46:50 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_02]: The chicken.
46:52 --> 46:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That can, that always wins a tic-tac-toe.
46:54 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
46:55 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
46:58 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_01]: One, it's, to me, that's maybe the most supernatural part of the film that kind of goes on and discussed.
47:05 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And you like to see street-level Pachino, really invested in something that seems trivial.
47:13 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's basically King of New York.
47:16 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:17 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's down there in such a way that doesn't even feel on the surfaces like condescension.
47:22 --> 47:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, dude, look, at the end of the day, I can do whatever I want.
47:27 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I can have whatever I want.
47:28 --> 47:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I can see whatever I want.
47:30 --> 47:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But man, you've got to see this chicken plate
47:35 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_01]: that I want more of the devil doing that because that that shows me that the devil is everywhere and he may not even be using it.
47:46 --> 47:47 [SPEAKER_01]: to corrupt.
47:48 --> 47:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter.
47:49 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Good time.
47:50 --> 47:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And he takes pleasure in the little things.
47:52 --> 47:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And that in that reinforces his, uh, I'm a fan of man.
47:58 --> 47:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
47:59 --> 48:00 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
48:00 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I make sense apparently.
48:02 --> 48:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:03 --> 48:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:03 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So, so while there are there are glimpses of it and those of the trope, the tropey part of the devil that I really like.
48:12 --> 48:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I just felt like it was still underutilized because it was still relying on some of these other bigger things and that's where I think the subtlety problem is is that it was so it was so
48:31 --> 48:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So we've watched a lot of films that sort of center around New York.
48:37 --> 48:43 [SPEAKER_02]: We've actually visited New York together and gone to a few different film sites.
48:45 --> 48:50 [SPEAKER_02]: One of them was in, you know, at the beginning of this movie, the big courthouse.
48:50 --> 48:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I thought about that immediately.
48:53 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I like the trope of guy from a little town going to go to New York, but he gets warned about it's Babylon.
49:03 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's the big city that's going to change you.
49:07 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_02]: That is the devil's playground.
49:09 --> 49:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that trope.
49:11 --> 49:14 [SPEAKER_02]: If you are going to actually film New York.
49:16 --> 49:18 [SPEAKER_02]: This was actually filmed in New York.
49:18 --> 49:21 [SPEAKER_02]: It makes the city look gorgeous.
49:21 --> 49:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It makes it look attractive.
49:24 --> 49:26 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of aerial shots of the city.
49:27 --> 49:30 [SPEAKER_02]: It shows you the skyline in ways that you haven't seen it before.
49:31 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It really does present it as, this is one of the most beautiful places in the world.
49:37 --> 49:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it is tempting.
49:41 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't really do a lot with like, oh, these slums and this place is good.
49:46 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a Gotham city.
49:48 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not Gotham city, New York.
49:50 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It really makes it feel like heaven.
49:52 --> 49:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And when they're on the top of the skyscraper with the infinity pools all around,
50:00 --> 50:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It has that sense in which that New York is a tempress in and of itself, right?
50:07 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost in the character.
50:09 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It is a character in the film.
50:11 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I like that.
50:12 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also thought, with that scene, this is not necessarily a trope.
50:18 --> 50:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that there is an intentional homage to the temptation of Jesus, where Jesus in Luke, when Jesus gets taken up to the top of the temple.
50:31 --> 50:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it doesn't work.
50:33 --> 50:35 [SPEAKER_02]: In this case, it absolutely works.
50:37 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason why it works is that it really makes New York seem really like a gorgeous place to live.
50:45 --> 50:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think it and I it helps when there's the the big reveal from the mother that she's actually been to New York and I like the way that it's presented is that like like she couldn't even
50:56 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_01]: bring yourself to ever admit that she's been to New York.
50:58 --> 50:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That alone was enough.
50:59 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, I gotta talk about this.
51:03 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_02]: This is when the film goes off the rails.
51:07 --> 51:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So the first time watching this, I didn't know that he was actually going to be the devil.
51:12 --> 51:24 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so to me, to me, I was like devil's advocate, yeah, of course, I know it's a phrase, and I know the pechino can, you know, be a pretty evil guy in these films.
51:24 --> 51:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew he was going to be, and then, you know, when it gets demon like I thought, okay, well, he's going to be some demon.
51:32 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He's super natural in some way because he can make the holy water boil or whatever.
51:40 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_02]: That he's actually the devil is kind of bananas number one.
51:46 --> 51:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And they all right, well, why not?
51:47 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're gonna make this guy the devil, that's fine.
51:53 --> 52:02 [SPEAKER_02]: The reveal that Keanu Reeves is the son of the devil, the biological son of the devil and that,
52:03 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_02]: The devil really wants grandchildren.
52:06 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_02]: This is way over the top.
52:11 --> 52:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the first twist kind of worked on me.
52:15 --> 52:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the second twist kind of made me laugh a little bit.
52:19 --> 52:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then as soon as it was like, yeah, but I what we really need is the Antichrist, which will be, which will sort of derive from the seeds of my two children.
52:30 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_02]: It's cartoonish at that point.
52:34 --> 52:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and that's, I think that's, again, this is where I, I'm gonna go back to my, it's a broad critique to say that like it lacks subtlety, but I feel like, there's a, there's gotta be, like, the, like, how do we make this, how do we make sense of why, why is the devil doing this?
52:55 --> 53:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then there's this grand plan, and I think that's one of the reasons why it lost me on it is that that's kind of the point of the devil in these things.
53:03 --> 53:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes his grand plan is just to so chaos, and just to prove that he can.
53:09 --> 53:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you, when you then go, again, like I said, this movie is so obsessed with the big that it can't, it doesn't have time for the small.
53:16 --> 53:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to make the overall plan massive.
53:22 --> 53:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be, no, no, this whole thing, this whole movie that you've been building up to is just me trying to convince
53:29 --> 53:35 [SPEAKER_01]: my estranged son to have a child with his half sister, you're like, well,
53:36 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that really the journey I thought I was going on and does that is that juice worth the squeeze and it's like this has to know this has to like this is like a crucial Adam and Eve moment to usher in the the apocalypse or something.
53:52 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I guess you kind of need it to make the key on is suicide.
54:01 --> 54:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Work for the plot, right?
54:06 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_01]: it assumes that this is the only direction we can go to get to this part and that's where I think I have the problem.
54:12 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: This is where I go to the subtlety aspect and the actual care about the point.
54:18 --> 54:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the point, if you decide that this whole movie was your big twist is this whole thing is leading up to the apocalypse.
54:28 --> 54:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, well now that feels too big for what I just went through.
54:33 --> 54:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
54:33 --> 54:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's, we were dealing
54:36 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: turmoil of one, you know, again, like there's all these different, um, um, homogenous to Dante and Faust and, um, John Milton and all that.
54:47 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:47 --> 55:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and a lot of that was just the, the center of it to my understanding is just the absolute nature of sin and man's relationship to it and how he wrestles with the divine.
55:00 --> 55:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
55:01 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_01]: This, this is, this almost becomes like what an action movie
55:05 --> 55:12 [SPEAKER_01]: there has to be some major catastrophic consequence, otherwise, what's the point?
55:12 --> 55:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that then loses the point.
55:14 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
55:16 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_01]: This is about to assume that the soul of one man is insignificant is to miss the point.
55:25 --> 55:27 [SPEAKER_02]: OK, I like that.
55:27 --> 55:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I like all that.
55:29 --> 55:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I will say a couple of other things that I really like about this movie.
55:35 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I really like to watch older New York men who are otherwise pretty much owe dance and lipstick.
55:47 --> 56:01 [SPEAKER_02]: These guys are great dancers like walk in, patino, you know, to thorough like these older guys from the city who grew up at a particular time in place, they're great dancers.
56:02 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It was like that was part of their education or something.
56:05 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And I like the idea like the devil's, of course the devil's is gonna be a great dancer.
56:10 --> 56:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's no there's no question about that.
56:13 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I like the idea of him just having a great time.
56:16 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I just, I love that, a fantastic.
56:19 --> 56:21 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, another thing I like about this movie.
56:21 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that they de-age Pacino at some at one point.
56:26 --> 56:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first off, he gets angry and he like, all of his clothes burn off.
56:35 --> 56:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But you're okay with him dancing around Lipsynki into Frank Sinatra in this.
56:40 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to wear a three-piece with the entire time, yeah.
56:43 --> 56:59 [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't like when the close came off, but he looks up and they de-age him so that the younger Pachino becomes the face of Kianu with long hair, and he's got the wings of the angel.
56:59 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_02]: As if he was once an angel who fell from grace or something like that, I like this, I like that idea.
57:07 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I like the massive art wall hanging behind the desk.
57:15 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_02]: that it's just porn basically yeah I like the idea that you know that it's just like the devil this is the devil's art he likes he likes fine art
57:27 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, I don't know what that is.
57:32 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I have not seen that kind of thing.
57:34 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're using like an engraving relief that is, you know, 20 feet high to kind of decorate the devil's apartment or the devil's office or something.
57:47 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen that in the movie before.
57:48 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was, it was very clever.
57:50 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's got this Gothic version of Pornhub.
57:54 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, he's had it for millennia, and I think, you know, all of the things I just said they're all kind of in that like 15 minutes left of the movie and they're all kind of like there to Just kind of create an accent or two around the big Pachino monologue
58:17 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there's a possible tweak here that says, okay, let's shorten this film, obviously, I think that's, that's a key.
58:23 --> 58:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, start, start sort of in New York.
58:27 --> 58:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Would this be better if the reveal of him being Satan actually happens maybe in the beginning of the third act?
58:35 --> 58:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And the last act is Keanu Reeves, you know, instead of having that like everything crammed in this last bit where it's I
58:41 --> 59:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because it's because I feel as it has to be like they're sort of rushing every bit of it into that one like monologue plus this plus of that plus of this like you could have a reveal then we can still finish with this monologue, but like Kiana's been sort of willingly doing his bidding maybe or he and it could be that he was doing it willingly or he feels like he has no other choice.
59:11 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_01]: reconciling with this and his sin and then when he makes the decision to exercise his free will, even if we do go back to this time jump, then that time jump has even more gravity to it.
59:22 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Because now that, so if you go to that time jump where he goes to the courtroom and that courtroom maybe you've only seen it and like flashbacks when they're talking about his, you know, because you could have had that whole conversation about finding out, oh, it turns out he really like that would be a reveal.
59:37 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it turns out he really did have a moral dilemma.
59:39 --> 59:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We find that out later,
59:40 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he finds out that the guy had a child in his trunk.
59:45 --> 59:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And then so now that becomes a moment where he's coming to, that's how you could start the third act.
59:51 --> 59:52 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how the reveal happens.
59:53 --> 59:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, you've already been doing this on.
59:54 --> 59:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You've been doing this for a long time.
59:56 --> 59:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You never needed me.
59:57 --> 59:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And you have that moment.
59:59 --> 01:00:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when he goes back to the past, we haven't seen it before.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We will.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm on the board with this.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:16 [SPEAKER_02]: There's enough doubt that's so that he's thinking, wait, they can't really be the devil, right?
01:00:16 --> 01:00:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you need that kind of, you need to have him on sort of a moral fence, almost like you could just come out and say it and then he just assumes it's hyperbally and then he's the right to see you have it.
01:00:28 --> 01:00:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I could get behind that.
01:00:30 --> 01:00:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm gonna ask you this, in the spirit of this season of double features,
01:00:39 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I finished this movie and then I threw on Oh God with George Burns and John Denver.
01:00:50 --> 01:00:53 [SPEAKER_02]: so that I could actually do a legitimate double feature.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And in that film, God has revealed very early on.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's no mystery.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no like, oh, is this guy really God?
01:01:02 --> 01:01:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, he's just God right at the gate.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just a different kind of movie.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:11 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of similarities between this movie and that movie.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's one of the major differences.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:17 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the John Denver Full Frontal.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you actually do see him in the shower house.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do, I like this better.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I like the idea that you knew this guy was kind of evil because he was a high-powered New York lawyer dude from the beginning.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe he's demonic as well.
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42 [SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that he's Satan doesn't get revealed to the very end.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I kind of like that.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the idea of, like, I think we got glimpses of the supernatural to late, maybe.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's an interesting one.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, because it feels like it assumes you know, but it also is trying to pretend at times it doesn't.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you had seen the trailer for this movie, you know that there's gonna be some kind of supernatural element.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it actually does reveal, like, do the full reveal.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_02]: But in this case, if you walked in thinking, okay, Al Pacino's the devil, and I could ask you this question.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You put this movie on knowing that Al Pacino was going to be the literal devil, right?
01:02:25 --> 01:02:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Did you know that he was going to be the literal biological father of Kiana Reeves?
01:02:31 --> 01:02:57 [SPEAKER_02]: No, that was a reveal that I didn't need, but because they concealed that, they could reveal the other thing, right, that that's the real twist and then you're like, oh, right, so then of course, then they did the whole time, you why me twist at the end, which was really you really didn't need that, well, because the other thing to think about no matter what happens, he's still the son of the devil.
01:02:58 --> 01:02:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's got to have something in the DNA.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that why he can't die?
01:03:04 --> 01:03:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Like he he can only go back to previous elements of time because he's actually I don't know.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a problem.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think this movie cares about that.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could redo this movie.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think you could remake this movie and I'd like to give Keanu a shot at the devil.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it could work.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:24 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:25 [SPEAKER_02]: He was recently an angel in a movie.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's true.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:33 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, is this movie better worse or on part of the Ron Howard film?
01:03:33 --> 01:03:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a Ron Howard minus four.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:37 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, I'm going to say a Ron Howard minus one.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I think Ron Howard would have been really good.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you gave this movie to Ron Howard, it would be considerably better.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_02]: But I will say this, you kind of delete the book ends, and this is a very entertaining movie.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think Howard gives us more reason to care about people.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think he prioritizes things that were deprioratized in this.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think there's bombast in the subtext and instead we went the other way.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Ron Howard would just have patino dance the entire time, which not to that if it's a musical.
01:04:33 --> 01:04:35 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:21 [UNKNOWN]: Come on!