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00:13 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, and welcome back to Rings and Ritual Season 2, where we will be examining episode 7 of the Painamacase series Rings of Power, doomed to die.
00:22 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_01]: In preparation for the introduction of season 3 in November, I'm Sarah Shieldmaiden of Rohan, and I'm Maryland, the librarian of Rivendell.
00:30 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're the of listen to all of our episodes from season one, or this is the first time you've ever heard of us, we're delighted you're here.
00:36 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be following our pattern from season one by reviewing what we mean by ritual, and then applying those concepts to the different examples of ritual that we find in the series.
00:45 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And from this we'll discuss how pain and decay depicted the cultures that they were adapting.
00:50 --> 00:56 [SPEAKER_00]: do get in touch with this, the feedback is still flowing nicely, and we'd be happy to keep up with that.
00:56 --> 01:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially since we only have one more episode after today's, so if you want to hear, get want us to hear you, then you better get your comments in.
01:06 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You can email us at ringsandritualsatthelorhounds.com, or you can join our ringsandrituals channel on the Lohound's Discord, will include all that information in the show notes.
01:18 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: We also want to say that we are a proud affiliate of the Lorehounds, Barovian, Broadcasting Network, where you will find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, films, books, video games, and other stories.
01:30 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Sarah, it's the second to last episode.
01:33 --> 01:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, that's come about very quickly.
01:36 --> 01:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels that way.
01:37 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad to hear you say that, because it feels that way to me, but I wasn't sure how it might feel to you.
01:41 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it just seems like short.
01:45 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, and at some point, I suppose next time we'll talk a little bit about our hopes and fears for season three.
01:52 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yes, yes, for sure.
01:54 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I've already started listing my point at the end of the survey, uh, outline.
01:59 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, hmm, have you been watching the trailers?
02:02 --> 02:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I have watching trailers, reading discussion, learning some things that may be sad, other things that kind of may be go, what?
02:11 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the reflection I thought, well, okay, I guess that could work.
02:15 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll see if they manage to help it work or not.
02:18 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_01]: What about you?
02:20 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh, I've watched the trailers.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen some chat online.
02:25 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I tend to try and avoid the chat a little bit because it tends to be a lot of people saying what they think is going to happen well before anything's actually being broadcast.
02:37 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes it depends on who is doing the chat to be honest.
02:42 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh absolutely, absolutely.
02:44 --> 02:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have lots of ideas about what they might do and one or two images from the trailer make me think, oh good, I think maybe possibly, but as you say, we can't know until we actually see it.
02:56 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So I try not to waste, well, I really don't put a lot of energy or emotion into it at this point.
03:03 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's a cool thing.
03:06 --> 03:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
03:07 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Precious commodity, it's don't want to waste too much.
03:11 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: very true.
03:12 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get right into this episode.
03:14 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, as we said, we'll be identifying any rituals that we see in the episode and then discussing them from the perspective of the intention, the outcome, the musical background,
03:24 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: and what that ritual tells us about the culture it's depicting.
03:27 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And we might welcome up with some other discussion points along the way, right, Marilyn?
03:31 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, possibly.
03:33 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe.
03:34 --> 03:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, yeah.
03:35 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's probably guaranteed.
03:38 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Before that, though, we're going to have a quick break.
03:41 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And when we come back, we will bring you the meat for the tofu for our vegan and vegetarian listeners without the quail sauce.
03:59 --> 03:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back.
04:00 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Before we begin our synopsis of events, complete with spoilers, I wanted to touch back on our discussion of the Palantir, and how each person who looks into it sees different things.
04:11 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to say in their origins the Palantir where intended for clear communication across great distances, as well as the ability to see things as they currently are, even from far away.
04:25 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_00]: They could not lie, though they could be manipulated by very strong minds to show only some things, well, obscuring others.
04:33 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_00]: In this adaptation, it seems as though the Palantirri are serving more as a stereotypical crystal ball to show each individual different images of their possible futures, as we discussed in the episode 5.
04:52 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_00]: but it is designed to offer insight into the person using it, not predictions for their future.
04:58 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But from three of the people that we did see touching the stone for whom we know what they saw, it appears that the Palantir is showing each one of them individual futures.
05:08 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So, Bill Reel sees the great wave, Elendil saw himself riding away from the city and Fatazon had a vision of Holbrand, remember Holbrand?
05:19 --> 05:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
05:20 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
05:21 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And glad that he appears to be exception to this pattern because she also saw the great way.
05:27 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_00]: But unless the show winners are making some massive changes, she will not be overwhelmed by it herself.
05:35 --> 05:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Y'all didn't also touch the Palantir, but we don't know what she saw yet.
05:41 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_00]: She might have seen the great wave for possibly a massive temple with a great dome and smoke coming out.
05:48 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And he thoughts on this song?
05:51 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I do hope that they don't have Galadriel on Numenor when the Great Wave comes, that would just make zero sense, please no don't do that.
06:00 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know that Galadriel can clearly swim great distances, but do we have to prove that again?
06:06 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope not.
06:08 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: That really wouldn't make any sense to me, so I'm really, really hopeful that they don't do that.
06:21 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I worried a little bit that it was being overused and that unlike you said that it was just like a generic crystal ball here is the future kind of thing it's not being used for what it was originally intended yeah it seems to be more kind of
06:50 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
06:50 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And it warns of the wave coming.
06:52 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, enormous spoilers if you don't know what happens to new and all, but although, yeah, exactly.
06:57 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm, I don't know.
07:00 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
07:02 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure we needed it used as many times as they did.
07:06 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that the time when we saw Millielle looking into it and there was that wonderful scene where she's with the women and the children and the wave, okay, that was very effective.
07:19 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure that adding on more scenes like that has actually increased its effectiveness.
07:25 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, what do you think, Marilyn?
07:27 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's, as you say, it's a useful device for individual sense.
07:33 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_00]: There was one time when Fathazon looked into it and we didn't see what he saw, but he wasn't happy with what he saw.
07:41 --> 07:47 [SPEAKER_00]: There was only the second time we saw him looking into it that we yet, his vision of how Brandon so forth.
07:49 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And in a sense, initially, of course, they were designed for communication with those elves that were on tolerers.
07:58 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Say, yeah, or to have visions of the elves, to be able to have that kind of communication.
08:02 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they're all together on this island.
08:05 --> 08:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They can communicate pretty well with one another.
08:07 --> 08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't really need things, don'ts, to see it from afar.
08:11 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But, um,
08:14 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_00]: people probably wouldn't relate to that as well as they would to this sort of crystal ball ideas.
08:20 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So perhaps that's where they went with it.
08:24 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah almost certainly because it is a shortcut to meaning which in TV adaptation is going to be a very useful tool.
08:33 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I think having to give like some kind of exposition on what a pallin theory really were and what they were supposed to
08:42 --> 08:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to wrap up a whole load of time into something like that in one episode.
08:48 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So I completely understand why they've done it.
08:50 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think, okay, enough already with the Palantiri?
08:53 --> 09:04 [SPEAKER_00]: This is seriously that, as you say, that first use was so dramatic and it's kind of not been lived up to ever since perhaps as a good way of putting it.
09:05 --> 09:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
09:06 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
09:07 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
09:08 --> 09:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, shall we get into this particular episode?
09:11 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Let us even so.
09:13 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the first synopsis then, Keller Brimble, currently living in a perfect bubble of Anotars deception, completes the forging of the nine rings, though there is still more detail work to do on each of them.
09:26 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Anatar asks him how long that will take, and Kellerbrimbo asks, what does it matter for something that will last forever?
09:34 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_01]: He's clearly in no rush.
09:35 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Anatar on the other hand says that he is sorry that time together is almost complete to which Kellerbrimbo replies, all things must end.
09:44 --> 09:45 [SPEAKER_01]: To Sauron, this is a pity.
09:47 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, no doubt.
09:49 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: No doubt.
09:51 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: There really weren't many rituals in this entire episode, heads up folks, but we have all kinds of interesting questions we can come up with, don't we?
10:01 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, we said in season one that the making the rings was a ritual in some form rather.
10:09 --> 10:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, as Caleb Rinpoche is working on his third series of rings.
10:15 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I find it puzzling that he doesn't recognize the contradiction between his statement all things must end, and the preservative nature of those first three rings, which were made to prevent things from ending.
10:29 --> 10:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And what is supposed to sound once says it's a pity that all things must end.
10:36 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Is he speaking as sauron or is he speaking as the being that has presented himself as anatar?
10:46 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's anatar, then he's still trying to keep colouring more on side.
10:52 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: He's still, you know, buttering him up a little bit, even though, you know, he's manipulating him and he's preventing caliber in bore from seeing what's truly going on or that kind of thing.
11:03 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: He's still kind of keeping him calm, keeping him on side.
11:06 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And so saying something like, oh, it's such a shame, all these things must come to an end.
11:11 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd see it as part of his manipulation.
11:14 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Because for Sauron, it's not a shame at all.
11:19 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, also the fact that that Osharmi is currently, you know, sending holes of fire in their way.
11:27 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He does kind of have to move fast.
11:29 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.
11:30 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I was seeing it, I guess, more from the Sauron side.
11:34 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was wondering, well, you know, I think Sauron really likes to play with his toys.
11:49 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Completely corn swuggled, you know, tied up in knots and utterly deceived doing what he wants him to do, and he's just kind of trying it, he's enjoying it, and it's too bad that it's going to have to end and he'll have to kill him or he'll be killed or I don't know what, I mean, I don't know what his idea was for the end game for a killer for him board, and I probably don't really want to know actually if it comes to that.
12:20 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, next synopsis.
12:22 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Outside, Zauron tells the troops and Mirbania that he is now in charge of the siege and all of them are startled when Adar's troops turn the siege towers toward the high hills beyond the river.
12:35 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_00]: The towers begin to knock chunks of mountain into the river to dam it, thus removing the protective barrier that runs around the city.
12:45 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: In his workshop, Calabra more begins to have suspicions, as he realizes that there's a mouse that is keeping a fairly regular schedule of appearances.
12:57 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So he draws a line of charcoal a little way down from the top of the candle.
13:05 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And then a final quick scene, emerging from the forest, a rondeur sees the siege engines
13:13 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: mm-hmm.
13:14 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening?
13:15 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, go ahead.
13:16 --> 13:23 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just, I actually really enjoyed that moment with Keller Brimble spotting the mouse.
13:24 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
13:24 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it told me all sorts of things and one of which was that Anatars would be called its spell casting or his illusions or whatever it is.
13:36 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_01]: aren't as strong as Anna Tarth thinks they are, there's teeny tiny chunks in his power.
13:41 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of enjoyed that, but also because, I mean, I know what's coming because I know
13:50 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: according to canon, what happens with calibrimble.
13:53 --> 13:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is kind of the start of calibrimble catching up and realizing that things are not what they're seeing.
13:59 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually literally waking up and smelling like a lot.
14:03 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
14:05 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Which he wasn't doing before.
14:06 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I remember in this rewatch, I spotted the mouse in an earlier episode.
14:14 --> 14:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And it just occurred to me, did sauton just kind of take an imprint of Calibutinbor's memories of things that happened and said, alright, I'll just mix these up and put them in a loop or something.
14:25 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Not realizing that the regularity of the mouse pressed appearance would begin to get a little suspicious.
14:34 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Well that is a trope isn't it in those kinds of stories that you see where somebody has messed around with time, is that there's something, some kind of little glitch or something that repeats and so the deception is spotted, you see that actually quite a lot but well done on spotting the mouse beforehand because I've forgotten all about previous mouse.
14:55 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was when Kele Brimor was throwing bits of metal over his shoulder because they weren't working.
15:03 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And that the mouse skitters around behind and kind of messes around and then figures out, okay, no food from here, it skitters off, and I thought, ah, okay.
15:14 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure it's gone, isn't it?
15:16 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that is, it was, yeah, and I don't know how many of our listeners are doubt-shouting.
15:23 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a glitch in the matrix, Alice.
15:31 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, oh, we're going to the dwarves, my favorite.
15:35 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Narvee gives King Dorin the news that Huregion is under siege and the King commands that new mining begin at once, not out of concern for the lives of the elves, but because the dwarves are losing unthinkable wealth every minute they delay.
15:49 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It just goes to show how his priorities have changed since a certain piece of jewelry entered the fray.
15:55 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: This convinces Narvee to stand with Dorin and Deesa.
15:58 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He also tells them that an elf who has been banished from dwarven lands is waiting to talk with the prince.
16:04 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is... El Rond.
16:07 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes.
16:08 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_01]: the two old friends exchange insults and greetings, because of course they do, insults are just part of their friendship at this point.
16:15 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And Durin tells Elrond that he's about to overthrow his father.
16:19 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Elrond tells Durin that if the dwarves cannot help them, Calabrimbo and his city will fall.
16:26 --> 16:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it would appear that Elrond and Durin have developed some interesting rituals of greeting over the years.
16:32 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And what does that tell us about their friendship?
16:35 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I could picture them, you know, the first, I'd love to see that first encounter between them.
16:40 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't you?
16:41 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_00]: How did this happen?
16:42 --> 16:49 [SPEAKER_00]: They hate saying to have saved the other person's life and, you know, I'm sure something happened along those lines, but we may never know the full truth.
16:50 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can see Doran following on sort of a, well, you're an elf, Dorist, no, no, no, no.
17:05 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: accepting it, agreeing with that and saying, oh, and by the way, and sort of slowly working their way in to the point where he could start picking back it, do it in a little bit with, you know, the stubbornness of dwarfs and all those kinds of things.
17:20 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, as it became a rich friendship, they continued to do this as a, you know, a familiarity tease kind of thing.
17:30 --> 17:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:30 --> 17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Only really, really, really good friends can insult each other in this way and it's fine because this is how they are.
17:38 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:39 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:39 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And just there, there are many ritual of topping one another's problems, you know.
17:45 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm about to work with my father.
17:46 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, I'm about to lose a city.
17:48 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: You know.
17:49 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very multi-pison.
17:51 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is.
17:52 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, can I say, probably stereotypically,
17:59 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: two guys in the gym together, you know, I just lifted 20 pounds.
18:02 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Why just lifted 50 pounds, you know?
18:05 --> 18:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do you know, I could just feel my eyes rolling completely without my control there.
18:09 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I saw them.
18:11 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I saw them roll.
18:12 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Did see the roll.
18:13 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Whoever whoever brought it about.
18:17 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, back in Arrayon, the destruction continues, and Kele Brimbore has discovered the deceit of the peaceful bubble that Anna Taur has created about him.
18:28 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_00]: He confronts Anna Taur who pervericates, prompting Kele Brimbore to throw Fanor's Hammer through the window, which breaks the illusion.
18:37 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Kele Brimbore's Sobs, as he sees the true nature of all things around him, including
18:48 --> 19:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Upon being told by Anna Todd of that true creation requires sacrifice, and seeing the black blood from his palm, can the Buddha finally realize that he has been working this entire time under this deception and for the benefit of Sauron.
19:06 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_01]: A terrible realization, chilling, absolutely ghastly.
19:14 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that Anna taught his telling him to creation requires sacrifice.
19:20 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of a brimbor who said that to Galadriel when the three of them made their rings, because she sacrificed her brother's dagger.
19:30 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but the sacrifice and then the sacrifice isn't that well, of course, and you wonder, okay, was helped run around at that point and listening at doors, kind of thing?
19:41 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it...
19:44 --> 19:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just it's so creepy.
19:45 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just creepy.
19:46 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
19:46 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just absolutely creepy.
19:48 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get on to it some more cheerful topic ritual magia and goatia what's the difference?
19:55 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about this before on this show, I think For instance, is fan or is hammer or ritual object for creation and Did it have a particular effect in breaking the spell delusion or when any heavy object have done to go smashing through the window?
20:11 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really great question, isn't it?
20:12 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we saw Feionor's hammer very, very early on.
20:17 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a signal that Kellibern Bohr is descended from Feionor and that he is there for a master craftsman and he is striving to be approaching as good as Feionor, but the hammer itself is highly symbolic for him.
20:35 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the hammer in which is held all the memory.
20:40 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_01]: of fair Norse crafting, and so it's a very, very important object, a significant object for him.
20:49 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Go on, I think it's also almost a spur for him or a driver, because to place it in such a noticeable holder in veneration almost, and yet also,
21:05 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He even says to Elder on the first time we see them together in season one that he really wants to strive to make beautiful objects, you know, the whole thing about Melcord, cried when he first saw the summerals kind of thing, and now he wants to do that, too.
21:20 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So that competition gets seeded for us very, very early on.
21:27 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now that instrument of creation, because it is a instrument of destruction.
21:33 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's the last breaking deception, breaking perhaps his own self-deception and finally realizing.
21:42 --> 21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been led by the nose and if I hadn't had such an obsession with my uncle or great uncle or her, or if you want to figure out his heritage, I might not be in this position right now.
21:53 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the thing because even the possession of the hammer tells you something about kind of rimble.
22:01 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And he has this highly significant weakness that is, of course, exactly what Anatar, Halbrand, Sauron, uses to manipulate him, which is this overwhelming ambition to at least equal, fey and or if not surpass him.
22:19 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a, it's, it's an obsession with Calibrembore.
22:24 --> 22:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And we can see that from the beginning when we first meet Calibrembore, that
22:30 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is something so easy for Sauron to manipulate, for him to use as part of his scheming, because that kind of ambition can become blind so easily.
22:45 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And the flattery of Anatar, plus being completely absorbed in what he did think was going to be one of his greatest creations, these rings.
22:59 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what led Calibre in Bordown this path.
23:02 --> 23:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, in some ways, a self-inflicted wound.
23:05 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, unfortunately, and if you think back to get first, he was saying, oh, I don't mean ring this for anybody else.
23:13 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: No, of course not.
23:13 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually, well, all right, maybe the doors, because suddenly they can't get their meethro whenever.
23:19 --> 23:22 [SPEAKER_00]: He kept resisting a resisting for humans until
23:24 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, he was at that tension point where he said, all right, I know when he knows how to do this.
23:30 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I better do it as a means of redeeming the supposed flaws while there were flaws in dwarven rings whose origins he doesn't understand and and the thought tries to tell him is because of the deception that he
23:47 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_00]: played on his king.
23:49 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So with all of these different things going on, we did say that the making of the three employed ritual, do you think it used either magia or goetia, magia being the kind of magic that Gandalf uses, which is never intended to deceive, and goetia the kind of magic that Sauron uses, which is, of course, definitely intended to deceive,
24:16 --> 24:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one would hope that they didn't use Goethea in the making of three Elven Rings, but as we know from Tolkien's own writing,
24:27 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_01]: that there is a problem even with the elven rings, that they do dominate in a way.
24:34 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they do.
24:35 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_01]: They have power over, and this is always a problem.
24:40 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same as what happens with the other rings and certainly not the same as what happens with Sauron's own one ring.
24:48 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But once you start putting something into an artifact and then you use that artifact to channel a power and you use that power to do something that affects the world around you, that is power over.
25:04 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a problem.
25:07 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, it absolutely is and it makes me wonder herself on used
25:17 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: had those ritual gestures when he put his own blood into the door of the rings?
25:23 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
25:25 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would say yes.
25:27 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Almost certainly, even if we haven't seen it on screen, it would have been necessary for him to weave something of himself into these rings because he purposes to dominate via those rings.
25:39 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So, the rings themselves are not going to give the kind of power that he would have for himself, but they will give the kind of effect that will enable him to dominate the wearer.
25:53 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And for that to happen, there has to be something of saueron that is woven into it, to enable that to happen.
26:01 --> 26:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I came across a new W article, Entertainment Weekly.
26:08 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_00]: they were talking about the interior design for about a door in season three but he also mentions or it also mentions this very familiar talking concept about um... creation which is very relevant to our end-point discussion and about does sound on need to calibrate board of four drinks it's the reminder that evil cannot create it can only corrupt
26:35 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, this goes a long way to explaining why Sauron need a calibre in order for his race.
26:42 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He could corrupt him, but he didn't know how to actually create this new form of...
26:51 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_00]: embracing enhancing power.
26:53 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the, what the, what the L's brought to it or what Caleb Brimborn particular brought to it.
26:58 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_00]: They very early discussions about, you know, needing a round object because you wanted to keep the power circular as it were.
27:06 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously there's a little hand waving going on with that whole thing.
27:10 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think this makes it very good point.
27:15 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_00]: That's
27:17 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Now that we're got the nine rings, we haven't seen yet how they will work, we have a pretty good idea.
27:23 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Not only particularly, I'm just saying to see how this principle carries forward in the next season when Salon is attempting to forge the one.
27:32 --> 27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
27:34 --> 27:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So we will probably then have to spend some time talking about, because it will totally depend on how this is presented by Pain and McKay as to how this principle of creation and inability to create is actually carried forward into the one ring.
27:52 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose if Sauron
28:00 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: then you could say it's not him creating, it's actually Kelle Brimbaugh's methods that are simply being patterned by Sauron, but then he puts so much more of himself into it so that it becomes that ruling ring.
28:12 --> 28:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I will be interested to see how they present it.
28:15 --> 28:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I know in the main trailer that's out at the moment you can see,
28:20 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_01]: um, some scenes of Sauron doing something.
28:25 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to add any spoilers in here, because obviously, we'll talk about this a little bit more next time, but um, yeah, it will be fascinating to see how this is shown.
28:36 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
28:38 --> 28:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I shall move on to the next synopsis.
28:42 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're still with poor old Kellerbrimbor, who has had a really unpleasant revelation.
28:47 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: He goes out into the midst of the siege.
28:49 --> 28:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He tries to convince Merdania and the soldiers that Anatai is actually sower on, who has been deceiving all of them the entire time.
28:57 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_01]: that when Kelle Brimbo tries to bring her back into safety, Sauron causes Merdania to fall over the parapet, where she's then murdered by Orcs.
29:08 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He tells Kelle Brimbo that all of this can end if he will complete the nine, and says that he will use them to create a lasting peace.
29:16 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure Sauron.
29:17 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly we hear the arrival of an army of elves under El Rond.
29:23 --> 29:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here comes the cavalry.
29:24 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Sort of.
29:25 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
29:25 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And not before time.
29:28 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But that moment, where Sauron, Sauron, calls his her to fall over the parapet.
29:33 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he might as well have picked up and thrown her over for what actually happens.
29:37 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, except that he still wants to maintain his deception to the troops.
29:45 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_00]: That killer Brumbot has lost his marbles.
29:48 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: but it's horrendous and it's a quite a shocking moment.
29:51 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it absolutely is, most of all, I think, to Miradania.
29:55 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, but also to kill a Brimboer because he doesn't know what happened either.
30:01 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one minute, he's touching her in the next minute, she's fallen over and he did not do that.
30:07 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the moment, he doesn't know what's real, what's not, what's up, what's down, he's completely loopy.
30:14 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, unfortunately, yes.
30:16 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Another question I had about Sauron's use of magic.
30:21 --> 30:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that when he does these ritual spells of deception using blood magic as we know, does this drain Sauron at all?
30:30 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in terms of
30:37 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
30:37 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a really great question.
30:39 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, traditionally, when you read stories that contain this kind of blood magic, or in fact, most use of magic, that it does eventually exhaust the magic user.
30:53 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't see that with Gandalf because we don't see Gandalf using much magic at all anyway.
30:58 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't think it's not really pertaining to him as a magic user.
31:05 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: but with Sauron he is using really deep dark magic and I do wonder if it does drain him because blood magic especially blood taken from himself.
31:18 --> 31:19 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a big thing.
31:20 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It should be, and yet I do remember one instance that we do hear that Gandalf gets shaken by his use of magic, and that's when he's trying to keep the door of the east door of the chamber of Marshal Bull blocked.
31:37 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_00]: and he puts a spell and then he meets the counter spells.
31:39 --> 31:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So in that combative moment, certainly, he is using magic defensively and speaks a word of power and the world's come to me down and someone and he actually says, I must rest here for a while.
31:54 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You can default the works of respond or after some.
31:58 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's drained him.
32:00 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Does it make a difference that he came as an old man?
32:03 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Where's Sauron?
32:05 --> 32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing, isn't it?
32:07 --> 32:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he, like the other story, he's been given the body of an old human man, a body that can hurt, that can weary, that can die.
32:20 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, that's not what Sauron is currently inhabiting.
32:24 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
32:25 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So, maybe it doesn't bother him.
32:29 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well.
32:31 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Too bad.
32:34 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Commander Elron leads the charge with High King Gilgala in the Cavalry, but the side of the caged Galatriel with a knife at her neck causes them all to halt abruptly.
32:48 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably thanks to Osanwei and Good Elvish communication with their horses.
32:54 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Adar welcomes Elron in English to a parleg.
32:59 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Elrond believes that Adar is doing Sauron's bidding by laying siege to Oregian, but Adar insists that Oregian has already fallen under the shadow, and that he and Elrond should join forces together to defeat the deceiver.
33:15 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Elrond says that they will paint the sand's black with a blood of Adar's children.
33:21 --> 33:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Adar insists that that's nothing to what they have already endured, but Luke is listening.
33:31 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_00]: With Adar's permission, Adar on bids an intimate farewell to Galaviril, but asks her forgiveness first.
33:38 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: He explains to his second as they go to ride out of the work camp that Prince Durin will be leading an army to assist them, and he asks his second to go out now and meet them.
33:53 --> 34:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So this was probably the most talked about C in all of Cs and 2, probably.
34:02 --> 34:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And I found an interesting analysis of it, an analysis that is based in music, thanks to Falco, who is also known as Philip, in his show the music and magic of rings of power.
34:19 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_00]: and he explains that the music is saying that this is not a romantic moment.
34:26 --> 34:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The choir is singing beloved friend farewell during the scene.
34:30 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But Eliron's theme is completely absent.
34:32 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So if this were romantic scenes, somehow the two themes would be twining together.
34:38 --> 34:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But this is all about Caldabodil because it hers as the only theme we're hearing.
34:44 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the first time in both seasons that we hear the third part of Galavodil's theme.
34:49 --> 34:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Each of theirs themes consists of three parts and A and B and an ostinata, which is the thing that goes around it around itself.
34:56 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, sound on stada, dada, dada, dada, dada, probably the best known of the ostinata.
35:03 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Phillips uses as her lowest point from which she will rise, because her third portion is finally come through.
35:11 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_00]: If it had been intended to be interpreted in a romantic fashion, as I said the two would have joined together, but Elrod seemed as absent.
35:18 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So he thinks this moment is Galavodil's Nadir from which she will rise.
35:23 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Eldron is simply giving her the possibility of evading certain death through a distracting who's which is certainly very distracting, to all concerned, including the audience, including the audience.
35:36 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, most of whom were kind of horrified, the idea of, well, this could make for a really awkward Thanksgiving Monday.
35:44 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, very complicated family lines.
35:47 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy, yes, indeed, yes, but it is it's a ruse and I love that musical interpretation.
35:58 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes total sense to me because you wouldn't have a romantic moment where one person's theme music is entirely absent, that doesn't make any sense at all.
36:09 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And with it being Galadriel's theme, it's all focused on Galadriel.
36:13 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So I really, really like that
36:17 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Spot on.
36:18 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that a great?
36:20 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
36:21 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So we find out it is indeed a ruse because gladrial open to a manical with the pin that L1 slipped to her while everyone was it would totally distracted and Calibre and Bohr works on the nine.
36:32 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Prince Doran Rallesi soldiers against Sauron, the Stoneheart who stole the seven secrets from the Smiths of Hazard Doom.
36:39 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_01]: He reminds them that dwarven loyalty is stronger than any sorcery, more powerful than any army, and deeper than the bones of the earth.
36:47 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so dwarves, isn't it?
36:49 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I will give it to you, Sarah.
36:51 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, including all that nice, a literative language fabulous.
36:56 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They agreed to march for a regeon where Elron is already leading his troops towards the walls of the city, pausing briefly to mourn for his slaughtered horse.
37:09 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a bit of gratuitous violence will be already new that works like to lick the blood off of their daggers.
37:15 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Gross.
37:16 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:17 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
37:18 --> 37:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Orc ritual and battle find whatever.
37:20 --> 37:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah.
37:22 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_00]: We really didn't need to see it particularly.
37:26 --> 37:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure that when you heard this the first time, Sara, that you were thinking of a particular speech from a lot of Shakespeare's.
37:35 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I was.
37:36 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Henry 5th, St. Crispin's Day speech, absolutely, because this was that, it's so traditional
37:48 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: the film version, Aragorn, before the black gates, where he's rallying the troops.
37:55 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
37:55 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, hey, come a day, we're chatted shields and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
37:59 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is not nice, Dick.
38:01 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's Aragorn's St. Crispin's Day speech.
38:04 --> 38:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
38:04 --> 38:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And very much a ritual before battle.
38:08 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to jinn up the troops, however you want to do.
38:12 --> 38:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure countless war films have moments of this very new.
38:18 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
38:20 --> 38:23 [SPEAKER_00]: But I want you to read this text because it's Shakespeare.
38:23 --> 38:28 [SPEAKER_00]: It needs to have accent from those aisles really get.
38:28 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So would you please indulge me and try more?
38:32 --> 38:35 [SPEAKER_01]: This day is called the Feast of Crispian.
38:35 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: He that outlives this day and comes safe home will stand a tiptoe when the day is named and rows him at the name of Crispian.
38:45 --> 39:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't include the whole speech because it's a long speech actually and it's a great speech for those of you who don't know what I strongly urge you to go ahead and look it up and read the whole thing and then maybe go into YouTube or something and find some famous actors reading it and just... Preferably someone like Michael Sheen.
39:03 --> 39:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
39:03 --> 39:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
39:04 --> 39:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:06 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take that under advisement.
39:08 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:11 --> 39:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great speech.
39:13 --> 39:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
39:14 --> 39:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And any speech in any film that is trying to do the same thing, rallying the troops, that the one person at the head of the troops trying to rally them, it has to measure against the same Christmas day speech because everybody's thinking, that's the same Christmas day speech.
39:31 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly anything in English.
39:32 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if other cultures have similar kinds of traditions or whatever,
39:37 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_00]: As we all know, of course, Shakespeare is always best when heard in the original Clingon.
39:42 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, in that case, Marilyn, if you wouldn't mind reading the St. Christmas Day speech in the original Clingon, I'd be delighted.
39:51 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Ha, ha, ha.
39:55 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I figured studying finish is enough and Welsh, that's enough language intake for me.
40:02 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fair.
40:03 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Besides, I prefer, sorry, I'm clinging on a supposed to sound angular and rugged and crunchy.
40:10 --> 40:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I really prefer my language as melodic and, you know, flowing.
40:15 --> 40:16 [SPEAKER_00]: My finish background.
40:16 --> 40:17 [SPEAKER_00]: What can I say?
40:18 --> 40:19 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
40:20 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_00]: The battle rages on.
40:21 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_00]: This is now back to Oregian.
40:25 --> 40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: As the Uruk's commanding the ravengers struggle to pull down the walls.
40:29 --> 40:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Gloog tells Adar that the walls are so strong they will not be able to reach them before morning.
40:35 --> 40:42 [SPEAKER_00]: He asks the Lord Father to call a retreat, but Adar insists they must fight on to capture so wrong at any cost.
40:44 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He says that he loves his children with all the remains of his heart, too much to be willing to let them become Sauron's slaves.
40:55 --> 40:57 [SPEAKER_00]: It looks as though some of his children might not agree with him.
40:59 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Adar enters his tent only to find that more of his children have been killed by a fleeing Galadriel.
41:05 --> 41:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He finds the pin that she got during Eleuron's deceptive kiss and orders an order to search
41:13 --> 41:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Sneaking through the camp to escape Galadriel is co-opted to help place dead Uduk's body in line for its pyre.
41:21 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_00]: She notices how many burning pyres there are, and watches as Adar commands each of his dead children to the pyre, saying, in flames they return to darkness.
41:35 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This ritual of tender care, and Adar's tears, startled her.
41:42 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_00]: because she has heard Adara talk before about his children.
41:46 --> 41:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
41:47 --> 41:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And how much he has suffered and how all along his one intention has been to keep them safe.
41:55 --> 41:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And the only thing that could interfere with that now would be the risous outrun.
42:01 --> 42:16 [SPEAKER_01]: That is true, and I have no doubt that Adar cares for his children, but he's perfectly capable of sacrificing a bunch of them to get what he needs and to do what he has to do.
42:17 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right at the very beginning, we saw him hold the arm of one of the
42:26 --> 42:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That was just, I could not understand the logic of that, from anybody's perspective.
42:33 --> 42:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's a very twisted fatherhood.
42:36 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the two characters built new at what would happen.
42:40 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_00]: The audience knew at any rate that works couldn't bear the sunlight.
42:43 --> 42:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have to think it was device by the showrunners to demonstrate this is why we wrap our urus in clothing and why
42:53 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, having them be in dark clouded places means I can go around freely.
42:57 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's even why some people have objected to the two lines confronting one another from the high view and the battle, the initial confrontation, where the elves are in light and the works are in darkness.
43:10 --> 43:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think I've not had to figure out some way to carry the darkness along with his children.
43:18 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_00]: so that they would not become crispy critters in the full sunlight.
43:22 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, that's my explanation for it anyway.
43:24 --> 43:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that there was any symbolic intention in that choice.
43:30 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But we've seen Adar and ritual around the death of his children before in the very first series and the first time we meet him, I think.
43:38 --> 43:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's the arc that's dying and he completes the death of the arc and then speaks words over the body.
43:47 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So we see him performing ritual over the death of his children more than once.
43:53 --> 43:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, it is Al-Randir who was witnessing us.
43:57 --> 43:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:58 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm afraid that the death of Bronwyn has not, um, not allowed any possible compassion you might have felt for our daughter to continue there.
44:10 --> 44:11 [SPEAKER_01]: You can understand it.
44:11 --> 44:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You absolutely can as we see in this series.
44:13 --> 44:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've now seen rituals of death and morning for harfewits, elves, sothrons and palagir, new anorians and urus.
44:24 --> 44:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So we got five different cultures, and you might almost say five different creatures, all of whom are subject to death.
44:32 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So they are united by a need to recognize, sacrifice, and memorialize death, and their dead ones.
44:39 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is such a universal.
44:41 --> 44:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't surprise me, and I'm really glad that the show winners recognized if they really want to be giving us in depth views of their understanding of each of these cultures.
44:52 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_00]: there has to be some death ritual in there somewhere.
44:55 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
44:57 --> 44:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
44:59 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Even for elves, because we know that death for elves is a totally different kettle of fish.
45:06 --> 45:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean to say they won't feel the loss, because you don't know when you might see that elf again.
45:14 --> 45:32 [SPEAKER_01]: If, you know, it won't be, if ever because there's always the potential to see them again, because, you know, their fair is still there, and a new hero will be wrapped around it, and they will be reborn as it were through their serial longevity, but despite this, there's still loss.
45:33 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Grievous loss, you know, even the elves need to recognize that.
45:37 --> 45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's been interesting watching how the show runners have presented these different cultures via their rituals around death.
45:47 --> 46:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Tolkien says in someone of his writings that might have been the nature of it all or a fit, the separation of the floor from the fair, itself was in intense pain, because it was not natural.
46:01 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's been in the back of their minds whenever they do depict selfish death.
46:06 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, again, the first episode, I think, of the first season.
46:10 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Galagadil says, we didn't have a word for death, which makes it a little challenging to relate to them as fellow creatures, if you will.
46:23 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, after all, the battle in slaughter and horrible things, she said, we now had many words for death.
46:30 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was a real hinge point for them.
46:34 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, death in battle, in particular, they have evolved their rituals.
46:39 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_00]: We remember the powering of the helmets up in the mountain in the hill.
46:44 --> 46:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And even when they had to run away quickly because they were being confronted by where they were about to be confronted by it works.
46:53 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And they had to get the news back to the high king.
46:56 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_00]: They paused long enough.
46:58 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_00]: to bury their comrades, to plant his sword on the burial mound, and then stand in silence.
47:05 --> 47:13 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't hear any words or songs or anything in particular, but clearly they have had their ritual moment for this fallen comrades.
47:15 --> 47:34 [SPEAKER_01]: as you say, part of the problem is that it's a violent tearing apart of the fear and the horror when the body dies and the fear is literally ripped from that body and sent to the halls of Mandos and it's only in the halls of Mandos that it can start to
47:35 --> 47:45 [SPEAKER_01]: heel and to get over the trauma because it is traumatic for an elf to have their fair and their hero are separated.
47:45 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: We read this in the Athera Beth Finnrodda Andres.
47:48 --> 47:49 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
47:49 --> 47:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really clearly laid out there that the two are meant to go together like two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
47:56 --> 47:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not meant to be separated.
47:59 --> 48:09 [SPEAKER_01]: which is one of the many, many reasons why serial longevity, why they are tied to the circles of the world, all that kind of thing.
48:09 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, if you want more detail on that, folks who are listening, the Athera Beth is where you find all of that.
48:14 --> 48:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and great detail for sure.
48:18 --> 48:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And it makes me wonder, well, to me, it makes all the
48:29 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_00]: and vice versa well shall we move on do you want to finish up that particular I shall seen I shall betrayed by her pretty hair to a female orook Galadriel is rescued by some timely arrows from Arondir
48:49 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_00]: He isn't tent upon killing Adore, but glad that he'll tell him that there is a dearth of Elven Heroes this night, and not wishing to lose him, that he will have another chance at Adore later on.
49:04 --> 49:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we go back to find the dwarves.
49:07 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Prince Doran, armoured up and ready to roll, is interrupted by Narvey, who tells him that the king turned his axe on Narvey's own men.
49:16 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_01]: He assures the prince that Disa was all right when he left her and insists that Doran must not take the army to a region, or they may not be a hazard doomed to return to.
49:25 --> 49:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Everything's going horribly wrong and hazard doomed right now.
49:29 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And up his down and down is up and nothing is the way it's supposed to be.
49:35 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron tries to compare the way he is treating Caleb Rimbord to the way that Morgoth treated him a physical course is a classic abuser technique.
49:43 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: When asked if he knows what is like to be tortured at the hands of a god, Caleb Rimbord says with soft sarcasm, I cannot imagine.
49:51 --> 50:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron tries to insist that Calibrembord chose this pain, that Calibrembord responds, you truly are the great deceiver, you can deceive even yourself.
50:02 --> 50:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yes, I mean, classic narcissist abusive, the whole works.
50:06 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Sauron stalks away irritated, and Calibrembord tries to destroy the rings by dropping them into a small forge to no avail.
50:14 --> 50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, he scoops them into a pouch, then cuts off his thumb to escape his magical
50:23 --> 50:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, yeah, yeah, one thing for a smith, a creator to cut off the thumb, which is one of the most important digits you have.
50:41 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And the use of the hand is going to be almost nothing for a creator after that.
50:50 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm also now thinking during the wars between England and France when the English archery was so prominent.
51:02 --> 51:11 [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't kill archers when they found them on the field, still alive, nor would they ransom them because, you know, how much money does a archer have, right?
51:11 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing, but they will cut off the first two fingers of the right hand, so that they can't draw into their arrow.
51:20 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so there's source of livelihood is gone and you know if they might just develop killed them well not that's not true They will find it the ways of course, but that old life is no gone so that the cutting off of digits for horrible purposes.
51:35 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean and just self inflicted
51:38 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_01]: knowing that this is the, you know, the thing that could prevent him ever being a creator again.
51:46 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's other things that are slightly more important right now, but for Kenna Rimbor to recognize that he has to sacrifice, he has to do that because other things are way more important.
51:57 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a huge leap for him from season one.
52:01 --> 52:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And perhaps he is beginning to realize that this is the end of his creative path.
52:08 --> 52:15 [SPEAKER_00]: because it is Sauron really going to leave him alive except to extract more knowledge from him.
52:17 --> 52:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe he just simply says, I'm done.
52:22 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to do what I can at this point to prevent these rings from being used the way they were intended to be used.
52:30 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I was forced to make them because I couldn't endure pain, or for whatever reason, but now I will inflict pain as a means of doing my best to ensure that they don't go to Sauron.
52:43 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So he done a lot of thinking and it's a pretty amazing moment.
52:50 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
52:52 --> 52:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I was interested that Sauron used the line being out of trade.
52:57 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It's one that's often used by angels throughout Jewish and Christian texts.
53:02 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And it made me think of Lucifer the Fallen Angel.
53:06 --> 53:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
53:08 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So, really ironic choice, you know, the dark lore I'd telling somebody, don't be afraid.
53:18 --> 53:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm only going to torture you, death or whatever it is that he's planned.
53:23 --> 53:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little good.
53:25 --> 53:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that Sauron is actually feeling sorry for himself?
53:29 --> 53:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
53:30 --> 53:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do.
53:31 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I do, too!
53:32 --> 53:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, look what you made me do.
53:34 --> 53:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah!
53:35 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I feel bad.
53:38 --> 53:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's classic abuser.
53:40 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess.
53:44 --> 53:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't picture, well, most of my images of the Dark Lord come from the third age, of course, but I guess there's still enough
53:55 --> 54:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Still enough of the student of Alley in him, perhaps to think of himself as more as a smith, than as a dominant, as a great creator, yeah, yes, and he still is clinging to this vision of, I will create peace, I will succeed when what about failed, that's, of course, he's pride, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great creator, and he's a great
54:17 --> 54:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's very sour on, though, that's exactly what he wanted to do, but the piece would be under his own terms, or he was a control would be all his, and that was the big difference between him and Big Daddy Morgoth, of course, is that Morgoth was just chaotic evil, whereas
54:35 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: No, everything must be controlled, everything must be exactly as I will it to be.
54:41 --> 54:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But yet, no, I do feel he feels sorry for himself here because, you know, I've been pushed into this position and you made me do this and I didn't want to be doing this to you, but look what you've made me do.
54:55 --> 55:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And you are my friend, and I don't want bad things to happen to you.
55:00 --> 55:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm going to have to do them in order to get in.
55:02 --> 55:06 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a perfect example of exactly how he will bring about peace.
55:07 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, picturing sound on the playground, insisting that the child put the block exactly in the right place to build the castle.
55:19 --> 55:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas Mordegoth would just come along and kick the castle.
55:22 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yes.
55:23 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And stomp all over it.
55:24 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
55:24 --> 55:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
55:26 --> 55:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
55:27 --> 55:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, speaking of kicking and stomping.
55:33 --> 55:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Caleb Brimboer staggers and falls over a small parapet where he is surrounded by his own soldiers.
55:38 --> 55:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We're now following the orders of Ann Natal, Lord of Evereggian.
55:43 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel arriving from her secret entrance that she told her on to her about, in the previous scene, commands the soldiers to recognize Kele Brimboer most gifted of Elven Smiths, as the Lord of O'Reggian.
55:58 --> 56:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And learn from him that Sauron has deceived, then forced him to make nine more rings.
56:05 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The two confessed that they each knew in their hearts who this was, but because he offered them what they wanted, they blinded themselves to what was so.
56:17 --> 56:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Keller Brimbor says that Galaudet will must take the nine rings and flee the city with all the elves she can gather.
56:24 --> 56:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he remains behind in the city that he built to delay Sauron for as long as possible.
56:31 --> 56:43 [SPEAKER_00]: The captain of the guards and the handful of soldiers say that they will stay with Caleb Brumbord, who bids Galatheville farewell, saying that while it is likely no one is strong enough to resist Seldron forever.
56:45 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It is more important to remember that it is not strength that overcomes the darkness, but light.
56:53 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_00]: For in its presence, all darkness must flee.
57:00 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_00]: This was a very eldest moment, a very Tolkien moment, and I love it so, and yet the first time I saw it, I'm afraid the way they delivered it, with the scenes looking so much like Fredo and Sam and the ruins of Osculia, all I could think of was Sam's, the sum will come out tomorrow, and it was frustrating, because I wanted this theme, I'm glad they introduced
57:30 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wish it hadn't felt like such a throwback to Lord of the Rings.
57:34 --> 57:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I wish they would stop doing that.
57:35 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_00]: They're so good on their own.
57:37 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see why they feel the need to continually remind us.
57:42 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember this?
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember this?
57:43 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember this?
57:44 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, certainly past season one.
57:46 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's totally unnecessary.
57:47 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We get it.
57:48 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
57:49 --> 57:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
57:50 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We can see that you're resonating with Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.
57:54 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got that now.
57:55 --> 57:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You really don't need to keep doing it.
57:58 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a shame and every time they do it, it makes my teeth itch a little bit because it isn't necessary.
58:04 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be far better if they did their own thing and just stepped away from all of the imagery and the like the resonance with things that are said in the PJ films.
58:17 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong.
58:18 --> 58:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I like the PJ films, although they are certainly not perfect.
58:21 --> 58:24 [SPEAKER_01]: There are aspects of those films that I heartily detest.
58:26 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: skateboarding elves being one of them and Frodo sending some away on this as Kirith Ungol I think is new and they did my boy Faramea so wrong.
58:36 --> 58:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but but just do your own thing Do your own thing don't don't keep walking back to to Peter Jackson.
58:45 --> 58:54 [SPEAKER_00]: There's not necessary It really is not necessary because they are such good storytellers themselves they have mined the lore
58:56 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_00]: six times out of ten when somebody says well that's not talking if you go a little deeper into lore you'll find that oh yes it is talking yes and they've done that and they can create good stories in wonderful characters and excellent situations so
59:13 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They're writing into an enormous gap, talking barely wrote anything on the second age, so there is the staff to tell us, okay, so this happened and that happened, but we don't have the actual writings.
59:26 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: They're writing into that gap, just carry on doing that, that's fine, and leave PJ alone because, yeah, but on the other hand,
59:38 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_01]: This was far preferable to sometimes to find the light we must first touch the darkness because I really really really did not like that line at all.
59:46 --> 01:00:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think they finally started listening more deeply and say, okay, okay, yeah, we got that one wrong to me, so let's let's redeem ourselves with, you know, a notion that is more resonant with Tolkien himself and they did, they absolutely did this was an incredible moment, you know, a theory moment and I think it's probably going to be an important statement going on.
01:00:19 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So continuing with the battle, Elrond continues the fight to disrupt the siege and the destruction of the walls, Fian, an elf who pops up from somewhere, tells him she has enough fire arrows and would be able to take down the ravage so long as she can get a line of sight.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Despite taking several arrow hits, she manages to pull out one of them, light it and send it directly into a bucket of pitch so that the resulting explosion can completely disrupt the siege.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, this is, this is, I think, a recurring trope in these kinds of stories, the archer making one last successful shot before dying.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at least Bard at the Bowman doesn't die after the last one successful shot, but it's that kind of idea isn't it?
01:01:03 --> 01:01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think Rihanna was one of the elves that went with El Rund in his original, yes, sending out from, um,
01:01:13 --> 01:01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Lyndon, by the way, and Galavodil was under his command at that point.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to talk about characters popping up, I mean, we saw for three seconds the high king charging in the line here.
01:01:26 --> 01:01:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see him again, or rather long time, and he's trying to wonder where he's been.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I also wonder how serviceable that arrow would be after she, you know, pulled it out of her own shoulder?
01:01:33 --> 01:01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
01:01:40 --> 01:01:50 [SPEAKER_00]: pain, suffering, but it works, it works who am I to deny the trope, you know, it's very dramatic.
01:01:50 --> 01:02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It is very dramatic, yes, and that's part of the point isn't it, creating a decent battle scene that's exciting and carries us along with it and you don't know who's going to get hurt next because people are dropping left-right incentive, it is very dramatic and I can totally understand why they do things like this.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the elves needed a big win, and that was the moment when the audience viewing it in the movie theater except they weren't, would raise the cheer and, you know, yes, yes.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And feel like the elves are at least fighting back, that is a chance, and that's not all about the Orcs are just going to overwhelm everything, except of course, if you know the story, you know, where this is going, but yes, that's a, so,
01:02:32 --> 01:02:39 [SPEAKER_01]: After that, Adar commands Glug to send in Damrod, despite Glug's objection that he will kill their own kind.
01:02:40 --> 01:02:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And Glug is proved correct in that later.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's wrong.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Adar and Deer have been joined the archers that the top of the wall sees the trolls approach.
01:02:50 --> 01:02:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron, meanwhile, trash is the workshop, searching for the nine rings.
01:02:54 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: He has a real hiccifit here, and a Brembo enters with his elvish escort, but Sauron does a Darth Vader on the commander and forces the other soldiers to kill each other while Sauron dispatches their leader.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a pretty grim moment, actually, because you start to understand just how much power he can wield when he chooses to.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's easy.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and when the need is great, which clearly it was at this point, because he's pushing back against the breaking of the deception.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Calibut Ambar is coming forth now as a more powerful character by which I mean literally character.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_00]: and glad that he was reminding them, hey, you know who this is, what do you mean?
01:03:39 --> 01:03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: He's crazy old man.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, show some respect, but also recognize he's telling the truth and you need to listen to him and do what he says.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So,
01:03:54 --> 01:04:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So, Damrod stumps through the urics and elves alike using several uric bodies as a shield against the arrows coming from the wall, and flings out on the way from the Revenger.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Watching Glug is not impressed.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Nope.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Kill Gallard finally arrives with a company on horseback, and manages to distract Damrod.
01:04:17 --> 01:04:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes him out on and out onto your together to finally do away with the troll possible harking forward to a certain scene that may or may not be appearing on the slopes of Mount Doom.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And Dambarod dies laughing in the true berserker fashion.
01:04:36 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Professor Shipy.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But with the coming of dawn, Voral Hill arrives to tell Elrond that Doran had recalled the army and shut the doors of Khaza-Dum.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Elrond is crushed, and refuses to believe that the doors are not coming.
01:04:54 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But the small remnant of Elr's forms aligned to face the entire enemy of Oruks-Olon, and all of them are soon overwhelmed.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Arondior does his best to kill Adar, who returns the favor, and manages to knock the elf badly wounded to the ground.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Adar, overcomes Elran, and then, quotes, say, probably spearsly assigned a bit of roomial atom, and removes collateral swing from around his neck.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:26 [SPEAKER_01]: There's an actual quote, isn't there?
01:05:26 --> 01:05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: There is Sunsu, the Chinese author of the article.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: The author?
01:05:33 --> 01:05:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:05:34 --> 01:05:38 [SPEAKER_00]: No rulers should put troops into the field really to gratify his own spleen.
01:05:39 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No general should fight a battle simply out of peak.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:45 [SPEAKER_00]: If it is to your advantage, make a forward move.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:47 [SPEAKER_00]: If not, stay where you are.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Anger may in time change to gladness.
01:05:54 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_00]: But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come back again into being.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's sound advice.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly is.
01:06:10 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And that leaves the episode on a real cliffhanger, doesn't it?
01:06:13 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, with the Galadriel's ring dangling.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Hanging it.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:31 [SPEAKER_01]: and everything looking completely lost with the dwarves not turning up and the main elves surrounded and the ring now in Adar's possession.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all looking pretty bad for our heroes.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty bad indeed.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:40 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't even know for sure if a rendezvous is a lie or not.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no, we don't.
01:06:41 --> 01:06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Not at this point.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It looked as though he took a gut wound from Adar's knife.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:53 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Tolkien, so we will hold on to hope.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and we will see in our next episode.
01:06:58 --> 01:06:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So tune in!
01:06:59 --> 01:06:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes!
01:06:59 --> 01:07:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, we have a nice chunk of feedback here.
01:07:06 --> 01:07:08 [SPEAKER_00]: We've run some familiar people.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you like to get us started with Sarah J?
01:07:11 --> 01:07:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, one of my favorite people.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah J says, guess who?
01:07:15 --> 01:07:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, I'm not expecting that any of my meandrings will be included in the podcast.
01:07:19 --> 01:07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just having fun throwing out my thoughts.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, we're including them.
01:07:24 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Episode 3, she says, I've been thinking about the lovely ritual of placing sea shells on Tarpalanti as tomb and the discussion of a similar Jewish tradition with stones.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:48 [SPEAKER_01]: To my mind, the ritual of mourners dropping a handful of dirt or sometimes a flower in the grave shares a similar purpose, something done by each individual within the community that shows care, respect, taking part in this final act of the caring for the body.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It's telling the
01:07:54 --> 01:07:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Nature will take what is left at the end of life and remake it into something new.
01:07:59 --> 01:08:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Admittedly, she says, Nature will have a heart of time of doing so when the body is entangled in stone.
01:08:04 --> 01:08:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Sooner or later though.
01:08:05 --> 01:08:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Sooner or later.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Then moving to Bronwyn's funeral, both Marlon and Sarah discussed how rituals around death and burial are for the community and communities what we see in this scene with many people gathered around and so many of these attending are in group, so many of those attending in groups have arms about each other or holding hands or leaning into each other.
01:08:26 --> 01:08:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Theo's standing alone between two small groups of villagers and refusing even the touch of Arondia's hand on his shoulder,
01:08:33 --> 01:08:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just heartbreaking.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is indeed it is and a good non-visual representation of exactly how Theo is feeling.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Using the anger as the shield against the profound grief and guilt unfortunately that is consuming him right now because he couldn't save his mother.
01:08:57 --> 01:08:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Which I remember another male character talking about not being able to save his mother.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think his life saved by his mother, so.
01:09:07 --> 01:09:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:10 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Sarah.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:14 [SPEAKER_00]: That was really, really quite wonderful to read.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we have another familiar name from a certain collection of students that tends to gather around a certain Dr. Souther Brown's ever-learned classes?
01:09:27 --> 01:09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's from Jennifer M. And although one of my favorite people in the world, yes.
01:09:33 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, I was delighted to have rings and rituals pop up on my feed and the timing is perfect as a listen along to my rewatch before season three.
01:09:41 --> 01:09:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I have been wanting to write for ages and finally, here I am.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yay, we're glad you're here, Jennifer.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We are.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for not standing approach to this adaptation.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I have enjoyed it thoroughly.
01:09:52 --> 01:09:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad that was me.
01:09:55 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_00]: After listening to your discussion of sacrifice needed for creation, I am curious of what you think about the ritual uses of blood, particularly in terms of binding or sacrifice,
01:10:11 --> 01:10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: to appease a God, to predict the future, and in the case of Sauron.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:18 [SPEAKER_00]: To create, I'll stop there for a minute.
01:10:19 --> 01:10:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't it?
01:10:23 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_01]: when you use blood in a ritual, it makes that ritual so much more serious somehow, because blood of course is an indicator of life itself.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And so once you start using blood in any form of ritual, that it becomes extraordinarily strong.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:10:48 --> 01:11:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you wouldn't think of the notion of blood siblings, you know, people who are not related by blood, but exchange blood in some fashion to express their commitment to one another.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad that you know, marriages don't include this anymore, I believe that if they do like it with that, well, I kind of hope they don't.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But there are some instances.
01:11:13 --> 01:11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: of having hands tied together.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And the Catholic Church, the priest will wrap his stole around the two hands joined together in that fashion.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that was a kinder, chantler, and healthier.
01:11:27 --> 01:11:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely.
01:11:28 --> 01:11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And wait, some old pagan rituals have bindings, don't they?
01:11:33 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yes, yes, and most penguins look upon blood as a means of intensifying whatever act they are doing, but for that reason, a lot of them just don't go in for it, again, mostly a form of domination, particularly if you're using the blood of somebody else, but it can also be a means of sealing your ownership of something.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: which, you know, I think isn't clean.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a theory, but then I don't practice that kind of a path anyway.
01:12:05 --> 01:12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: The left-handed bath is a sometimes call it.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And the use of blood to appease a god things like that.
01:12:12 --> 01:12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're talking about blood sacrifice, human sacrifice, that sort of thing, and that's so far down the path of no.
01:12:22 --> 01:12:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it's really sad that it keeps coming up again and again, and I think probably we'll be seeing some of it in season three.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Man, well, it's probably too soon for a season three to have that, but it comes to this whole notion of a transactional deity, which I've always found very distressing, because my understanding
01:12:50 --> 01:12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a loving relationship.
01:12:52 --> 01:12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: People are liking it to parents and children and so forth.
01:12:57 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems it's a very, very, I'll use the word primitive, even though some cultures do still follow it.
01:13:06 --> 01:13:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you want to give something of yourself what could be more precious than your blood.
01:13:13 --> 01:13:25 [SPEAKER_00]: if you want to demonstrate how important this thing is to you, whether it's good weather for the crops or success in battle or whatever it happens to be, blood is the most precious thing you can give.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But it kind of overlooks an understanding that image of divinity, whatever it is, is probably wanting the
01:13:42 --> 01:13:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So what should, why exactly, and if it isn't, well, maybe it's not the right deity, or maybe it's a deity that's being misrepresented by somebody else who is trying to manipulate you and dominate you.
01:13:56 --> 01:14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to point back to the Athrabath here because in the tale of Adonel, it is made very clear.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: What happens when it comes to blood and human sacrifice, yes, or melco, and it's because his
01:14:15 --> 01:14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: care for these humans is very much conditional, you must love me, you must worship me, you must abjure every other god, and I require signs of your devotion and one of the signs of devotion was of course ritual sacrifice.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now I'm thinking of Abram bringing his son, or actually
01:14:44 --> 01:14:52 [SPEAKER_00]: because he heard a voice telling him to do it, to an altar to sacrifice to God, you know, to prove his devotion and dedication.
01:14:52 --> 01:15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I like to think that maybe Abraham felt he was required to do this, and of course God saves him at the last minute from it and sends a ram instead and so on.
01:15:05 --> 01:15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: other cultures will use flowers or the first flowers, the first fruits, the harvests, sacrifice.
01:15:12 --> 01:15:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it was in a shifting from a gatherer culture to a hunter culture that these things happened.
01:15:20 --> 01:15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Jennifer obviously you've asked a massive question we can go on and on and on forever.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:28 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not all you wrote to us today.
01:15:29 --> 01:15:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you said, I want to go back to Barrack, the horse, naturally, Jennifer is famous for her love of horses.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:40 [SPEAKER_00]: In the snippets about Numenor, hopefully, can collect it in the fall of Numenor edited by Brian Sidley.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:44 [SPEAKER_00]: We learned Numenorians had unique relationships with horses.
01:15:46 --> 01:15:48 [SPEAKER_00]: They could be summoned by thought, which reminds me of Shadowfax and Gandalf.
01:15:49 --> 01:15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: We see a little of that relationship in both season 1 and 2.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there is a ritual on how Gandalf comes to be accepted by Shadowfax, as he calls on that ritual each time that he asks Shadowfax to bear him.
01:16:10 --> 01:16:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Bonus speculation question in season three, teaser trailer, we see that we learn the origin of the Nazgul's winged steeds, will there be a ritual to bind those creatures to Sauron or to the Nazgonell's
01:16:24 --> 01:16:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not gold, that's not
01:16:43 --> 01:16:56 [SPEAKER_00]: IMHO, the series of non-verbal interactions with each other form, especially calming signals, are something like a ritual, think of cats playing five-dimensional chess, talking new resources.
01:16:56 --> 01:17:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't understand the reference to cats playing five-dimensional chess, but certainly
01:17:06 --> 01:17:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting to characterize Gandalf's relationship with Shadowfax as a ritual.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I see it as somebody who knew and understood horses, particularly horses that hadn't been tamed and never been ridden by anybody, that you have to familiarize the horse with you.
01:17:24 --> 01:17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to approach them not in a stance of domination.
01:17:31 --> 01:17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: but in his stance of request.
01:17:33 --> 01:17:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's, she points that out that, he asks permission to ride Shadowfax each time.
01:17:40 --> 01:17:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he knows full well that Shadowfax can buck him off in the river and bolts, right?
01:17:44 --> 01:17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he doesn't have to do this.
01:17:46 --> 01:17:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, Gandalf's acknowledging that is a lovely ritual, whether or not it's required anymore, I don't know.
01:17:55 --> 01:17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But he still honors it.
01:17:58 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And the whole mind to mind communication, Tolkien was really vague about that, even about us on white.
01:18:06 --> 01:18:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he was a little more specific about us on white, but he just told us that, you know, horses and nomenonyans were very close and bonded, I'd like to think there was some kind of a ritual, but who knows how the attraction first came about.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, did a horse just come gulping up one day or a young woman and say, hey, I'm yours.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Or did the woman have to go out and look for her horse or did it just happen?
01:18:34 --> 01:18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
01:18:35 --> 01:18:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that don't have any of that detail.
01:18:37 --> 01:18:41 [SPEAKER_00]: We really don't know and we could speculate from end to end.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: As far as the winged steeds,
01:18:46 --> 01:18:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure that Sauron had rituals, unfortunately probably blood rituals, probably blood rituals.
01:18:52 --> 01:18:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:18:53 --> 01:18:54 [SPEAKER_00]: To bind them.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he gives them, he gave this one to his servant, the witch king.
01:19:05 --> 01:19:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So presumably he had to give them to the other eight because they were all flying Nazgul by the end of the third age.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know what?
01:19:16 --> 01:19:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to see that at all.
01:19:18 --> 01:19:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good one.
01:19:20 --> 01:19:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We could go along with that though, won't you?
01:19:21 --> 01:19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
01:19:22 --> 01:19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, no, no, worry, and thank you very much.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, another Syra J.
01:19:29 --> 01:19:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Who has indeed?
01:19:32 --> 01:19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Dear Marilyn and Sarah, time for my episode four thoughts.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:38 [SPEAKER_01]: They've mostly been swirling about considering the importance of touch.
01:19:39 --> 01:19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Last episode I wrote of Theos Rebuffing Arondias touch at the time of Bronwyn's funeral pyre.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Here in episode four, there is Arondias gentle approach to winter bloom.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Laying his hand on her branch, even after she's exhibited physical anger to his approach.
01:19:54 --> 01:19:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And Winter Blooms acceptance of that touch going so far as to entwine one of her branch tips with his fingers.
01:20:00 --> 01:20:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Directly after this, we get Theo and Arondea embracing in a firm hug.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't but imagine how healing that hug would have been for both of them.
01:20:09 --> 01:20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, indeed.
01:20:10 --> 01:20:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And seem to remember Arondea touching Winterbloom part of that is to communicate to Winterbloom his true sorrow at what has happened.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the Winterbloom can access what it is that Arondea is feeling.
01:20:25 --> 01:20:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And that touches permitted for that.
01:20:29 --> 01:20:33 [SPEAKER_01]: touches him, back, and connects with him.
01:20:34 --> 01:20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's rather a beautiful moment, actually.
01:20:36 --> 01:20:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I rather liked that.
01:20:37 --> 01:20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's glorious.
01:20:38 --> 01:20:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think of trees communicating with each other through their root tips, touching each other.
01:20:44 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So that when one tree is diseased, it will send chemical messages to surrounding trees at the same kind to say, hey, you better start producing more of whatever chemical it is that might help you fight this off.
01:20:59 --> 01:20:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Plants, I think, communicate in various ways more than humans tend to think.
01:21:06 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah goes on to say, this led me to think of all the various ways humans have incorporated touch into our rituals.
01:21:13 --> 01:21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: from the commonplace, shaking hands, a friendly slap on the shoulder, to the formalized religious, such as the laying on of hands or a nointing with oil, ritual so often incorporate touch of some kind, it seems to me, as touch is a basic human need.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, I remember each of my kids' babyhoods would deep joy as they were so much snuggling.
01:21:34 --> 01:21:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you know this Marilyn because of your own grand baby.
01:21:38 --> 01:21:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's lovely to have Teddy
01:21:43 --> 01:21:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that we're at this nuggle stage yet because we only see him about once a month, but certainly the being able to hold him and you know, have him lean into me and sing to him and so forth.
01:21:58 --> 01:21:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It just
01:22:00 --> 01:22:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's a delight, isn't it?
01:22:01 --> 01:22:04 [SPEAKER_00]: For joy, hormones just flood the system.
01:22:04 --> 01:22:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly really, really amazing.
01:22:08 --> 01:22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah does go on to give this caveat.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:13 [SPEAKER_01]: She says, this is not to say everyone wants hugs all the time.
01:22:13 --> 01:22:18 [SPEAKER_01]: We each have preferences as to who and when and how which we deserve to have respected.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's actually a really important point.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Very important.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, for me, there are friends that I have who
01:22:26 --> 01:22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: we have that kind of communication.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: We know hugs between us are always going to be fine.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm never particularly happy when people I don't really know very well come in for a hug.
01:22:38 --> 01:22:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:22:38 --> 01:22:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:22:39 --> 01:22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And just yeah, this is my body space and I'm not entirely comfortable with you actually really getting inside it.
01:22:47 --> 01:22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And it can be difficult because people don't always think about
01:22:55 --> 01:22:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I ask, is it okay?
01:22:57 --> 01:22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:22:58 --> 01:22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I ask.
01:22:58 --> 01:23:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's not okay, and if it's not okay, then it's just fine.
01:23:02 --> 01:23:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:23:02 --> 01:23:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:23:03 --> 01:23:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And that in that case, the other person is often expresses gratitude for having an asked.
01:23:11 --> 01:23:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of people really do assume.
01:23:13 --> 01:23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and they come in, arms wide, and you're like, oh, okay, nothing I can do about this now.
01:23:18 --> 01:23:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think because you're such a public person.
01:23:22 --> 01:23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: and people take classes from you and that student teacher relationship builds it's very much like other figures you know in the media or other places that you feel as though you have a relationship with this person in the screen.
01:23:38 --> 01:23:45 [SPEAKER_00]: but they don't necessarily feel the same way about you and how many hundreds of students do you have or thousands, probably hundreds of thousands.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And how many millions of people know this actor in this role, and I think now of Comic Con in all the places where these actors so graciously,
01:23:59 --> 01:24:21 [SPEAKER_00]: spend a lot of their time, you know, probably receiving little gifts that they really didn't want and hugs that they really didn't want and still maintaining this gracious reasonably welcoming stance because they understand and I expect the ones who don't understand or do what I just don't do those kinds of junkets shall we say.
01:24:24 --> 01:24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, so our very own David Lorhound writes to us by email, which you can do, too, at rings and rituals, at thelorhounds.com.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Marilyn and Sarah.
01:24:37 --> 01:24:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Your discussion, wait for it, of Eagles, turkeys, and those two bottoms squaring off, in episode 3, prompted a few light natural history footnotes from me.
01:24:47 --> 01:24:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn's Roman eagle comparison got me thinking about how we distinguish the actual animal
01:24:54 --> 01:24:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Eagles are found around the world in many species.
01:24:57 --> 01:25:01 [SPEAKER_00]: America's bald eagle is our particular version of a much older emblem of power.
01:25:03 --> 01:25:15 [SPEAKER_00]: When Charles Thompson helped finalize the great seal in 1782, he replaced an earlier designs imperial style eagle with a native bald eagle to make the symbol distinctly American.
01:25:16 --> 01:25:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And the olive branch and arrows gave it responsibility for both peace and war.
01:25:22 --> 01:25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But being a national emblem didn't mean everyone appreciated the bird itself.
01:25:26 --> 01:25:27 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: At one time, bald eagles were so abundant, they were considered a pest species.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Indeed, Alaska paid bounties on bald eagles from bald eagles, yeah.
01:25:37 --> 01:25:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Bald eagles from 1917 until 1953, because fishermen and fox farmers considered them a threat to their livelihoods.
01:25:45 --> 01:25:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you know they were fox farmers out there?
01:25:48 --> 01:25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought they did.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Chicken knot?
01:25:50 --> 01:25:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought a lot.
01:25:50 --> 01:25:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Chicken farmers would be very upset by that notion.
01:25:59 --> 01:26:01 [SPEAKER_00]: rather ghastly to some of this.
01:26:03 --> 01:26:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently, we, meaning the United States, liked the eagle considerably more on official documents than helping itself to the fish.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I get that.
01:26:11 --> 01:26:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I get that.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: He goes on, your 1776 recollection also has a lovely historical component.
01:26:18 --> 01:26:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I did know that there was historical bases, but I didn't know the actual details and that's what David just is here.
01:26:24 --> 01:26:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Franklin really did praise the turkey in a letter to his daughter, calling it, quote, a bird of courage, close quote, although he never formally nominated it as the National Bird.
01:26:34 --> 01:26:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh well, he might have, we just don't know, do we, we didn't formally, he might have informally and got talked down, as happens in the play and the movie.
01:26:46 --> 01:26:55 [SPEAKER_00]: He imagined his imagined turkey would even take on a British grenadier invading its farm yard, a spirited character reference, if not an actual nomination.
01:26:57 --> 01:27:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And Sarah, a group of those formidable birds can be called a rafter.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if he'd said a raptor, no, I would have been in a far more on board, but a raptor.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, because they roost in trees, so they're up in the raft.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's why I interpreted up in the rafters.
01:27:14 --> 01:27:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess so, yes.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I am just amazed that those great big heavy chunky birds can get up into the trees.
01:27:20 --> 01:27:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It gives you respect for their strength of their wings, yeah.
01:27:24 --> 01:27:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So he goes on avoiding the McGround level doesn't entirely move the possibility to her key in catarons.
01:27:30 --> 01:27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd rather not have a turkey full of my head.
01:27:32 --> 01:27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds mugged on pleasant.
01:27:34 --> 01:27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: But it all but it happens.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:44 [SPEAKER_00]: They fall asleep and the chicks male and saw crossing the rotor called Pult's POU LT as in Pultry.
01:27:46 --> 01:27:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Find the Eore quote, two Bantam's close quote description,
01:27:51 --> 01:27:55 [SPEAKER_00]: In a glittered gazelle, sorry, folks, you're going to flip it up for yourselves.
01:27:55 --> 01:27:59 [SPEAKER_00]: See what that image is like, I have no idea, but it doesn't sound pretty.
01:28:00 --> 01:28:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Not so much, no.
01:28:01 --> 01:28:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Nails sometimes threaten rivals by thrashing vegetation with their horns.
01:28:06 --> 01:28:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Behavior called object horning.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pronounced in that very carefully, and we're moving on, oh yes, speedily.
01:28:15 --> 01:28:20 [SPEAKER_00]: The shrubbery becomes an innocent bystander in someone else's macho confrontation.
01:28:21 --> 01:28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Desold.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:23 [SPEAKER_00]: As a girl in my eyes again.
01:28:23 --> 01:28:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, as a parent, I've noticed differences in how young, boys and girls sometimes approach physical play and competition.
01:28:31 --> 01:28:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And make me wonder where the social expectations tell the whole story.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:41 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a personal impression, not a universal rule, and antelopes certainly can't sell a question for us.
01:28:42 --> 01:28:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But the threat display parallel made me smile.
01:28:45 --> 01:28:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Look, and I can do to you if you were this bush!
01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:49 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:49 --> 01:28:50 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:50 --> 01:28:50 [UNKNOWN]: WAH!
01:28:50 --> 01:28:51 [SPEAKER_00]: WAH!
01:29:05 --> 01:29:08 [SPEAKER_00]: brings joy to this research librarians' heart, so.
01:29:08 --> 01:29:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just learned so much more about Turkey than I ever thought I would, so thank you for that, David.
01:29:15 --> 01:29:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's it for this episode, right in, and let us know what you think.
01:29:19 --> 01:29:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Any suggestions you might have for rituals to look at, and anything else you'd like to share with us.
01:29:25 --> 01:29:32 [SPEAKER_00]: This will be your last chance for your feedback to be heard on air as our next episode is the final one for this season.
01:29:33 --> 01:29:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We welcome your feedback at Rings and Rituals at TheLoreHands.com or on TheLoreHands Discord server where we have a special channel set up just for Rings and Rituals.
01:29:43 --> 01:29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: On the lower-hand website, there's also a contact form and a voicemail feature.
01:29:47 --> 01:29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Look for the contact us link at the bottom of the page.
01:29:50 --> 01:29:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We're publishing weekly episodes now, and we expect the last one to drop on the Wednesday before rings of powers season three begins.
01:29:58 --> 01:30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: After that, there may even be a bonus episode or two, so keep an eye on our server channel, or listen to other lower-hand podcasts for announcements.
01:30:05 --> 01:30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Best of all, subscribe to rings and rituals on your favorite podcast, and you will know when the episodes are going to drop.
01:30:12 --> 01:30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, be sure to check out the other affiliate podcasts supported by the Brovi and Broadcasting Network, such as Dungeons & Do Rags, they remind the music, and into the West, the podcast about the greats of the screen and cinema that have died recently.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, don't miss John David Alicia and Jean, on the main lorehoud's podcasts.
01:30:34 --> 01:30:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We will definitely be covering season three rings and power, even though we're not quite sure yet how we will handle that first for episode drop.
01:30:43 --> 01:30:43 [SPEAKER_00]: No idea.
01:30:43 --> 01:30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You can count on us to cover each episode individually though.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Links for all of these are also in the show notes.
01:30:51 --> 01:31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to our recording engineer and editor Bob, to David and John our producers and to John for arranging our theme music as well as all those who support us along the way.
01:31:00 --> 01:31:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If you would like to support us and the podcast, find us on Patreon at patreon.com-tholorehands.
01:31:09 --> 01:31:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Subscribers will get access to ad-free versions as well as many other benefits.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Until next time then, remember, it is not strength that overcomes darkness, but light.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:24 [SPEAKER_00]: For any of its presence, all darkness must flee.