Doctor Who - S02E02 - Lux

[00:00:00] Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your 6. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[00:00:27] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David and Jon. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone, except Darth Vader.

[00:01:17] Welcome to the Sonic Screwcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to all of time and space. I am Jon, the TARDIS technician. I'm Ian, and don't make me laugh. Unless you say something funny. And I'm Alicia, the film projectionist pet of the God of Light. Welcome to our coverage of the BBC and Disney Plus series, Doctor Who. Well, everyone, this is a brand new episode. We weren't sure we were going to come back for episode two, but we're insane.

[00:01:46] And the episode was very good, in my opinion. Yeah. This is season two, episode two, Lux. You can check out our past episode coverage, including the season premiere and coverage of all of season one of New Do Who in the Lorehounds feed or the dedicated Sonic Screwcast feed. And the 60th anniversary specials. We did do the 60th anniversary specials as well. Thank you. I didn't screw up any of the intros on those because I wasn't there.

[00:02:15] The logline here is the doctor's quest to get Belinda home takes the TARDIS to Miami in 1952, where an abandoned cinema is hiding a terrifying secret. Can the doctor uncover Lux's secret? Ha ha ha ha ha. Hmm. Ian, what's your hot take? Um, I liked it. And that is a hot take for me sometimes with some of the later era Doctor Who.

[00:02:44] But I had an absolute blast with this episode. It kind of, it just in the back of my brain, it gave me this like feeling that RTD knows how many episodes he's got in this realm and is free to do whatever the heck he wants. And sometimes that really lends itself to the wackiness of Doctor Who. Um, and yeah, this one, it ticked a lot of boxes for me. Very nice. Alicia?

[00:03:12] Yeah, I thought that this was, this was really great. Um, I, you know, I immediately wrote that we had to cover it because it was picking up on topics that we brought up last week, like the Pantheon or cancellation rumors. And, um, but it was also this one was, it was almost like this one was made for me. It's, I'm a massive film geek, uh, especially animation probably. So this was kind of right up my alley. Um, I, there's a lot to dig into here.

[00:03:40] I kind of went crazy writing, taking notes as, so I'm, I'm excited to talk about it. What about you, John? What'd you think? Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. The minute I watched it, I was, I was with you, Alicia, you, you were the first one I think of us to watch it. And you were like, oh, we should cover it. And I'm like, ah, you know, it's a really busy week. And I was, I was sick earlier in the week. I don't know if I really want to do it. I watch it and I'm like, all right, we're, let's get, let's get on the mics. Can't miss it.

[00:04:06] I mean, great way to, uh, to know, go back to this Pantheon idea. That was one of the best ideas in new, new who so far. And I'm glad that we're finally picking up on that again in season two. And honestly, it's one of the reasons people were excited for a black doctor was the exploration of what happens when a time traveler is in a discriminated class in history. And, uh, we finally did that.

[00:04:33] Like they did that a little bit in season one, but not that much. No. Uh, and we did that a little bit with Jodie Whittaker with sexism in, in certain, especially, I remember they did that in the, uh, the India, Pakistan conflict episode. Uh, but, but I think it's something that is very important when you're a time traveler and it's weird if you don't bring it up. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree.

[00:04:59] I still think they were pretty light on the topic and maybe they just have to be because we are dealing with essentially a children's show. So it was, it still felt, it wasn't what the episode was about, but I am glad it was acknowledged and the, the way he acknowledged it and dealt with it in such, not just a doctor style, but in a shooty Gatwa doctor style was, was beautiful. He's just like, I shine wherever I go. That's what I do.

[00:05:27] And I just let them bring their own worlds down when it's time. Sometimes I'll help, but it's, it's that inevitable question of why don't you fix all of the problems? If you're a time traveler, why don't you fix all of the horrible things that went wrong instead of this one specific murder mystery that happened? Uh, yeah. And you know, when you see societal structural issues like this, you're like, can one person speaking out one time really fix it all?

[00:05:53] Uh, and, and like, yeah, it's important for people to speak out and like those voices together can make a big change, but the doctor may not be the vehicle for that. Right. Someone from an outer world coming in and being like, you all suck. And, uh, I, I don't know if he's the most effective messenger in general. Uh, and, and so, yeah, I mean, there, there are certain ways the doctor influences things like the, uh, don't you think she looks tired, but it's subtle ways.

[00:06:22] He influences history. And, and even, even that I think came back to bite him and ended up being like, Hey, the doctor shouldn't metal that hard. Yeah. I feel like he should metal with meddlers, not do the meddling himself. And I know that's a fine line. Yeah, exactly. Like the, the external meddlers is what he tends to try and fix and get the timeline back to the sacred timeline. Quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:50] No, I was, I was very glad that they addressed the segregation issues somewhat realistically. Like they, it was, they showed it's something that you're always thinking about. And I also, it was good that he called out, he said to Belinda, you know, black also includes you by the way, in this time and place, even though she's Indian. Right. Um, but at the same time they showed that it's, it's something that they always have to think about, but it doesn't mean that every single person is horrible.

[00:07:16] And sometimes that's where I feel like when this issue is addressed, that's where it goes wrong. It's like, I, I, either someone's a saint or they are an awful person. And, and in reality, it's more like what we saw in the diner where it's people who like, don't really care. They know there's rules and they're like, you know what? It's late. Like, let's just chill out and all hang and be normal. Um, what's not Alicia, not all racists. It's not, it's not like this radical movement.

[00:07:45] It's just people who are like, Oh, I'm so like, let's just relax for a moment and forget about these, these rules that are being imposed on us. I just, but it is very much like the banal, the banality of evil, right? Is this idea of like the evil is in the everyday nature of it. And so people, when in need, you know, they need this help from this guy are like, sure, let's just look past that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:11] But I think also in the case, there are a lot of people who are just, um, they know what's expected of them, but they don't really care. Like they're not racist enough to keep up the rules if nobody's watching. Yeah. It's only if they think they're going to be punished for not doing it. Right. Yeah, that, that is true. These enforcement mechanisms matter.

[00:08:34] Uh, of course, realizing they're going to be stuck in the 1950s, the doctor and Belinda do a costume change, uh, and worry about the reactions to their skin colors are on their mind. I, I want that closet. I always want the doctor's closet, but it seems like with Shruti Gatwa, it's especially a fun doctor who closet, but I want to know who did Belinda's hair. Was it the doctor or. The TARDIS did it. The TARDIS, yeah. That's the, yeah.

[00:09:02] The TARDIS has like a special hair styling robot machine. Yeah. Yeah. In a word. You stick your head in it and it comes out different. I kind of wanted, um, Belinda to, uh, to address that. And just like, who, how did, how did that happen? Because nobody asked my consent to change my clothing and the doctor would say something like, it's bigger on the inside. Like, that's what you're worried about. There are, there are many things happening here that you should be concerned about.

[00:09:29] I think she was excited when she found out there was a costume change involved. Yeah. We have not addressed like the TARDIS being a living being in a long time. Hmm. Maybe, maybe we'll do that again with, uh, with 15. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, perhaps. I think they may have jumped the shark by making the TARDIS an actual woman that could talk to the doctor. I like that episode. I think that may have been. No, I like it, but I think they've, I don't know where you go once you've done that. Yeah.

[00:09:58] Yeah, that's, that, that might be true. That's, that might, that might have peaked. I do absolutely love the opening to this episode though, because there are these little check boxes in my old who brain of things that I miss. And one of them is the doctor being in the guts of the TARDIS, pulling things apart that don't make sense, putting things together, acting like he knows how this machine works, but he's very much a dad trying to fix a car with no mechanical experience.

[00:10:28] Um, so seeing him pull bits apart underneath the TARDIS, putting it back together to find this bizarre workaround, it gave me lots of like John Pertwee, Tom Baker vibes where they were always doing that. And a big part of the episode was, well, we've got this set. It's very cheap because we have the set and we've already built it. Let's have him play with some stuff and it's fun. So yeah, I'm a sucker for any technobabble that happens in the TARDIS. And this takes that for me.

[00:10:55] Um, I, I really liked the banter between the two of them. That's, that's shaping up nicely. Like I like her, her incredu, incredu, incredulity. Incredulity. That's the word I'm looking for. Um, she's like, really just the doctor always. Yeah. Ridiculous. And I love it coming from a nurse as well, because there is this banter between doctors and nurses where nurses do all the hard work. Doctors swoop in and gain all the glory. And that's very much the same with the doctor and his companions.

[00:11:25] Mm-hmm. Are you guys, uh, Scooby-Doo fans? Absolutely. When I was a kid, I haven't watched it in a while. Best line of the episode, right? Well, yeah, you're Scooby-Doo, honey, I'm Velma, which I'm like, yes. But then also, does that make Belinda Fred? And, and does that make her- He calls her Fred later. He calls her Fred, right. But does that make her like the low-key actual leader of this mission? Interesting. I would, I would say Shaggy was the low-key leader.

[00:11:55] He was just following Scoob to the snacks. Yeah, that's it. No, I, I love that line so much. Darling, I'm Velma, just got a big old grin out of me, because it's right. And any doctor can say that. That's not just a shooty thing. Any doctor can say that and mean it. It's great. But he says it with more style. Exactly. Yeah, precisely. That's right. And I did like the development of Belinda here, where, you know, she's been like, take me home, take me home, take me home. And then she's like, oh, but we are in the 50s.

[00:12:26] That's interesting. I want to see more. Yeah, it felt very human to me. That felt a very organic way to have her voluntarily go on a mission and, on a mission, that sounds weird, on an adventure and enjoy it. Like that human compulsion to enjoy a mystery when it's faced with. I was like, well, we're here, so I guess we'll get some Taco Bell, even though I probably wouldn't have chosen. It's here. Let's get it. Oh, my God.

[00:12:54] Are you enjoying, and now that you're stateside for a little bit, is that a clue to what you've been doing over here? Taco Bell. It's conco burritos every day, morning meal and evening. Enjoying the treats of Taco Bell. I have a confession. I don't think I've ever had Taco Bell. You would remember. Your body would remember. My body would have the scars inside. I have clenched muscles I've never developed anywhere else, but from having Taco Bell. Yeah. Okay.

[00:13:23] The doctor and Melinda discover that the local movie theater was recently struck by a tragedy where an entire audience mysteriously disappeared. They meet with the mother of Tommy Lee, one of the disappeared, who fills them in, also about the projectionist, who is suspected in the disappearance, with no proof to convict him. He's now locked up inside playing films to an empty house each night. But the doctor and Melinda discover he is not alone. The menacing cartoon come to life who is actually responsible for the disappearances, trapping

[00:13:53] the audience in film, bribing the projectionist to do his bidding by bringing images of his deceased wife to life as well. So, yeah, this was actually, this was the point when I messaged you guys and said, we have to cover this because this is when I realized we have another Pantheon god here. But then when we got to the meta stuff, I'm like, oh, we have to double cover this. Yeah. That's what really got into my brain as soon as we got to that, the fourth wall, not just

[00:14:22] breaking, shattering, bombing, machine gunning, Uziing. But you can really see the Disney money come to life again in this episode with all of the animation stuff. When you see his wife come out, is in black and white and then turns to color. Just, I cannot fathom a world where I'm watching Doctor Who and I watch that. Because the quality was so great.

[00:14:49] Like, that was visually, I just wanted to watch that scene over and over again. And Lux himself coming to life and everything they did with that animation was just top notch. I honestly think this is what I wanted from the Disney money. More so than we saw in the last episode. Because last episode, I think, is something that has happened a few times now, which is it looks too clean. Things will, space needs to be dirtier. Because people are dirtier and messier.

[00:15:18] And it feels less Doctor Who. But this was, things are still dirty and messy, but there's a living cartoon that looks like a real thing. And that's what I wanted from the Disney money. Yeah, it's great. I have one little nitpick, which is how can he feel his wife if she's just made of light? But I'm letting it go because it was so cool, the entire concept.

[00:15:41] Okay, so Lux Imperator is the name of this particular god of the Pantheon, the god of light. And they called, by the way, the Pantheon the gods of chaos. So I guess we should start using that as well. But it just, it is cool because a, it's cool that they decided to make the god of light into a cartoon, into a movie thing, because obviously movie projections are light.

[00:16:09] Photography is all captured light. It's just such a cool concept that just a film nerd would think of. Yeah, it's got so many levels and layers to it. And this is one of those episodes that it shows you, like the movie reels being loaded up. It shows you everything that's happening in the projectionist's booth. It's such a film nerds episode.

[00:16:35] They really spend a lot of time just being nerdy about it and not glossing over it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's cute also the little, like, they do these throwouts where they're like, remember, this is a silly show. And in this case, it's like, I'm a two-dimensional character. You can't expect a backstory. Now, as a fan of One Piece, I tend to disagree with that. Sure. I've watched many, hundreds of episodes of backstory on two-dimensional characters. Yeah.

[00:17:03] I mean, I'm a huge animation fan and certainly there's a lot of animation with depth, but I thought it was cute. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah, that's a funny line for sure. Yeah. And we got another harbinger message, but who is the harbinger in this case? Is it the projectionist is the harbinger? It could just be another harbinger that we don't know about. Yeah. Good old RTD loving his wordplay with that external shot of the title of the movie and the actor falling apart.

[00:17:32] I wonder who that was for because no one was outside the theater to see that happen. But the timing was great. What was his name? Like Tommy Lee's? Or no, not Tommy Lee. What's the kid's name? Something Rock Harb. Rock. No, yeah. But the kid, his mom, she's the one who saw it, I was going to say. Oh, right. Yeah. I can't remember her name. Tommy Lee. It is Tommy Lee. Oh, that's a funny name to give the kid. Yeah.

[00:18:04] And I liked, they had the callback. They're like, in case you forget the rest of the Pantheon, you must be the one enemy of the toy maker. Decomposer of maestro. Nice wordplay. I see what you did there. The killer of the god of death, Sutek, which reminds me, they killed the god of death, but people still die. So what did that do? Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't think that the god of death caused death.

[00:18:31] I think it was more like, also they dragged the god of death across time. So the god of death still exists at every point in time. Right? Okay. I'll accept that. They killed him by dragging him across all of time. Okay. Maybe that's the answer. Okay. It's like, it's like the end of this episode where they just sort of permeates into the fabric of everything. Yeah. Well, if you've got, if there's any critical role, fans or nerds out there, they have this god of death as well.

[00:19:00] And the idea is that death always happened, but souls would disappear and float away until there was a god of death. And then they had a specific plan for the dead. So death and dead things will still happen. There's just less structure to it without a god manipulating all of it. That would be my interpretation. Okay. We never really did find out if the doctor is like the god of life. Like, what is this timeless child guy? Who is he? Where did he come from?

[00:19:30] I would like them to incorporate him into the Pantheon eventually. I think that would be really cool. What if they did? All we know is that he's from another universe, right? He's not a time lord. He's a different type of alien from a different universe that was abandoned. He just showed up. Yeah. Yeah. I think as a baby. Yeah. I do think that RTG wants to eventually explore the godless. Oh, sorry. What am I saying? The timeless child. Godless child works as well.

[00:20:00] I'll take that. Yeah. I think so too. He definitely is more of a fan of it than the fandom is. And like... I don't hate it. I'm just like, okay, tell me more. Do you know what this is about? Yeah. It was an execution problem more than the idea. Um, and, and like Star Wars, you can have a fact and then like work your way back to it. I'm okay with, you know, you can clone wars this thing. I reserve the right to hate it until it's described in a way that makes me like it. All right.

[00:20:31] Fair enough. I don't think it's going away ever. It's guilty until proven innocent. Precisely. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's going away. So I would like them to incorporate it more smoothly. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I don't think it should go away either. I don't. Once you've done it, you've done it. Now you've got to live by it and make it make sense. For me specifically. Do I understand the flux? No, but it happened. Okay. That one we can pretend didn't happen. I think, I think we should. Thank you. That's the exception that proves the rule. That was for me.

[00:21:01] That is by far, I, again, I haven't watched the old Doctor Who, but out of everything I've seen since 2005, that is by far was the most difficult storyline for me to get through. And I know not everybody feels the same. No, I'm with you. I can't really think. I mean, old who didn't do a huge amount of like multi, multi, multi, multi, multi, multi episode arcing stories. But when they did, I kind of love it. Yeah. I don't think anything really compares to flux.

[00:21:32] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, on paper, it looks great because it's like, oh, let's combine all these different Doctor Who popular stories. But then, yeah, the execution was just, it was, I was like, why do I care about any of this and how does it go together? Yeah. Nice soupy. Not in a good way. Well, let's leave Chris Chibnall behind and take a break.

[00:22:10] We're back. Mr. Ringeting, the cartoon incarnation of Lux Imperator, traps the Doctor and Belinda in a roll of film as well as 2D cartoons until they think their way into becoming more three dimensional. But Lux continues to toy with them, letting them think they've gotten out several different ways until they finally burn the film, releasing them for the final confrontation. Yeah, they got inceptioned. Yeah.

[00:22:40] Should have had a top. But I was so relieved when that first fake out release, when the cop showed up with the mother and then she was suddenly like turning them in. I was like, oh no, come on. And then that was a fake out. I was like, oh, thank God. Like there has to be nice people out there. Exactly. It really tramples on that hand-holding moment, which is such like a personal thing. Like it really tramples on that. See, I'm right with you.

[00:23:06] I was so relieved when it was so obviously a fake out and the Doctor figures it out. I was smart. Yeah. Yeah. It also, though, I think alludes to and shows the alternative possibilities without distracting us for 20 minutes in the episode. Yeah. Like I remember RTD and Moffat talking about when they first started workshopping New New Who or New, sorry, New Who, not New New Who.

[00:23:49] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially like the first Doctor is like constantly in prison. Yeah. I mean, you got to know if it's, you know, John and I are big Wheel of Time fans and the author of that writes in these, uh, these as plot points. Like why does all the plot happen to these characters? Because they're Taviran. It's part of the pattern. Just right. That's beautiful. Whatever makes the plot go forward. I was just saying that I like Matt from the Wheel of Time because is he a character that

[00:24:18] bumbles into things stupidly? Yes. But it makes the plot happen. Right. Yeah. You need those people. And that's the Doctor in this case, I guess. Mm-hmm. Every now and then you're just going to look through a window and there's going to be Donna Noble making faces at you. Aw. This is going to happen. I wouldn't object to that. Can we talk about the Whovians? Yes, we have to. Yeah, that was like, because you were setting up, Ian, last time you were talking about,

[00:24:47] what do we think about the fourth wall breaks? Well, here we go. It was so funny that last week I just, we mentioned, it was just one line from last season, which was him mentioning the score of the TV show, which blew my mind because it didn't have much to do with the episode, but it was the first acknowledgement that he knew that there was a TV show happening. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:11] So to then just go 100% full throttle into this idea is kind of wild. It crawled out of the TV, yeah. Yeah. I kind of love it because they did it in a way where it also isn't true. Because it doesn't think- Although it is by the end of the episode, right? Well- It's ambiguous, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it might be. I don't know. My little brain, this is like trying to explain quantum physics.

[00:25:39] My little brain accepts that it's there, but doesn't understand it. So I'm trying not to think about it too hard and just let it be something that happened. Um, it's the kind of thing I really want them to do more with it if they're going to do it. Because once you open that door, beat down that fourth wall, you can't undo it unless you really explain it. But it worked in this episode. It worked really, really well with this episode, with the theme of this villain.

[00:26:06] Um, and I can just buy it as being like a sub-universe within the wider Who-niverse. But I also wonder if it's setting up something bigger with the whole, the fact that Mrs. Flood is constantly, every episode addressing the camera and the meta things that they say. Well, like first of all, of course, they're talking about, like the whole exchange where they're talking about, what's your favorite adventure? And everyone's like, blink. And he's like, not any of the ones that I'm in.

[00:26:37] It's always blink. And that's what all of New Who says it's blink. Yeah. I mean, of course it's blink. What happens in blink? It's a story where you're not allowed to blink. Well, that sounds like an absolute epic. Belinda is great. I love Belinda. It is the best entry, I think. Still. Like if someone goes, what's Doctor Who like? I think that is still the episode to show them. And it's weird because he's... I don't even know who disagrees with that. What? Oh, really? Okay.

[00:27:04] But it is interesting because he is barely in the episode, David Tennant. That's my biggest argument against it. It's... If I was going to put it in like introducing people to Doctor Who, it's in the top five, top ten, but it's never going to be my number one episode because he ain't in it. And by the way, for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, Blink is the episode that introduces the weeping angels, which are statues that move when you're not looking at them. That's why you don't want to blink.

[00:27:33] You want to be looking at them. And Carey Mulligan was a young Carey Mulligan, wasn't it? It's an incredible episode. It is. I think it just doesn't quite work for me as an introduction. No, I get that. I get that. Yeah, I understand your criticism. My thing would be the idea of the Doctor and his whole persona is so weird that the dosing that you get in that is actually very good to inoculate you against what's coming. I get that. I get that. But I do...

[00:28:03] I have recommended The 11th Hour as people's first episode too. I actually think that The 11th Hour is still to this day the best first episode of a Doctor to introduce who the Doctor is. Why do you think so? Why do you say that one? Why do I say so? Because it's the actual origin. He's landing on Earth. He does a lot of less exposition dump exposition.

[00:28:30] He gets to go up against one big bad that's resolved in one episode. And he does his whole look-me-up, I'm-the-doctor thing, badass moment. Amazing. You also get a fresh companion introduction as well. Because usually there is a crossover companion that bridges the gap. But Pond is as new as Matt Smith is. So yeah, I can get that. Right. I still think Rose. It's start at the beginning. Yeah. There's not so much of New Who.

[00:28:59] Even though it's been 20 years, there's so much gap. But I still think just start with Eccleston and keep going is the best way to do it. Well, I mean, I would even say start there. And if you feel like skipping over anything, you can. I'm a completionist and that's a horrifying thought to me, but to each their own. Yes, me too. But okay. But also, it's not just like they had the fun banter about, you know, this stuff that we're talking about now. But, so they were basically being us.

[00:29:27] But also about referring directly to the rumors of cancellation. And like, well, I knew this was going to happen because it was leaked online. Hashtag RIP Doctor Who. Do you feel like they're playing with us at all? Or just a wink and a nod? Or? RTD is a very incredibly intelligent man. He really is. Like, if you watch interviews with him, read the books that he's written and co-authored.

[00:29:56] He's an incredibly intelligent man. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's in there to cover all the bases. So I don't think that's 100% a tell. I think it's more of a nod to everyone is assuming. I think it kind of speaks to the wider nerd culture around TV shows as well. There is always, when are you going to get renewed? Instead of living in the moment, there is this. How many seasons are we going to get? What's going to happen next? And you may as well just say it.

[00:30:27] Because the next week it can change and it doesn't matter. Like, Andor's a great example where from the beginning they said, we've got five seasons. We've got to pull it out. We know what we're doing. It's like, we've actually got two seasons and we're very relieved about that. So I feel like it's RTD nodding to the, I was going to say cancel culture, but that's not right. That's the wrong one. But the TV cancel culture. Right, to cancel anxieties. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And just enjoy it. And I think that is him playing with us in the room.

[00:30:57] But also, if it ends up being true, he looks like a genius. Because he had the bravery to talk to us about it in the TV show. So I think he wins kind of either way this pans out. But I was thinking it could even be just toying with, I don't know. I just wonder how much deeper this fourth wall breaking is going to go this season. Like, was this a one and done thing aside from whatever's going on with the Mrs. Flood? Or does this tie integrally, integrally? I can say these words.

[00:31:27] Integrally? Integrally? Integrally? Integrally? Integrally? Into the Mrs. Flood storyline. Whatever that reveal is going to be. There's a big clue here where I think it absolutely has to. Because Earth gets destroyed on... They can't go back to May 25th. Because something happens on May 24th. And I don't think it's a coincidence that an episode of Doctor Who will air on May 24th. Right. The penultimate episode of this season is May 24th.

[00:31:57] And they had that in the Debris Floating in Space first episode. And they mention it directly in this one. Yeah. I think the fourth wall breaking will accumulate there. There's no way you set that up as an accident. Yeah. But then I also wonder, like... Okay, so at the end of the episode, they're surprised that they're still there. But also, I was wondering at some point, like, are they suggesting that we, the audience, are not real? Sure. Sure. Why not?

[00:32:25] You know, it wouldn't be my worst day. Yeah. I wanted all of the stuff in their room. That's great. They had loads of Doctor Who paraphernalia. I loved it. This is definitely the best homage to Whovian since Osgood in the 50th special. Yeah. It kind of tramples all over Osgood now, doesn't it? I know. Osgood, people flipped out because she had a scarf. Yeah. How dare she have that scarf? It is interesting, though. I think, obviously, Mrs. Flood is Disney.

[00:32:55] And Disney is just in the show now. Yeah. That's it. And the Flood is like Mickey Mouse with the Fantasia wave. Yeah. That's not fun. My semi-joking idea is that she is God-God as the Christian God, the one singular God. It kind of ties into like the Flood thing. Flood being a very biblical erasing of sins and whatnot.

[00:33:22] So if they're brave enough to tie this pantheon into something we're familiar with, that's quite a big, big swing. So actually, I have it in the notes in the next section, but might as well bring it up now. I noticed when after Lux, you know, evaporates basically, they say, so he's actually a God now, infinite, invisible. And the doctor says, amen.

[00:33:48] And I thought, you know, that's a bit pandering to be to like the Christian audiences. Like, oh no, we're talking about these gods, but we know, we know there's the one true who's infinite and intangible. But what if it did tie into what you're saying? It would be, it would be something Doctor Who has not done before.

[00:34:09] He's very much, it's not anti-religion, but it's very much been external to religion and very science-based. So it would be very interesting to try and incorporate that into the world of Doctor Who. I'm intrigued. I think he's generally skeptical of people who declare themselves gods, right? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's kind of the vibe I get.

[00:34:36] Now, I will say the best quote about God ever in media, in fiction, is from Spy Kids. Oh, it's the Steve Buscemi line. Yeah, yeah, you want to say it? Wait, can I do it? Do you think God stays in heaven because he fears what he created? Something like that? Because he too lives in fear of what he's created? Yes, exactly. This is the second reference to Spy Kids I've heard this week.

[00:35:06] I have to watch this movie sometime. Have you not watched it? I've never seen it. I don't know. I think I was too old when it came out. When did it come out? In like... Early 2000s. Yeah. I was like nine. I was so into it. I was, yeah, I was ready to go. I was ready to go be a spy. Just skip straight to the Spy Kids 3D and thank me later. Oh, that was such a good one. George Lopez as a giant villain head. Spoilers! Okay. All right. All right.

[00:35:36] I'll edit it out. I'll edit it out. It's only like, what, 20 years old? Or no, sorry. It's only a very niche movie that's 20 years old. You know what? I'm not editing it now. Go watch George Lopez and his giant villain head. Enjoy it. So what did you guys think about the bi-generation? He has this extra pocket of energy, saving it. I mean, he uses it to heal a relatively minor hand wound, but I guess that was just to alert Mr. Ringeting that he had this. Oh, yeah.

[00:36:06] That is purely, purely plot McGuffinry. Because if you've got a... Like, the Doctor can heal pretty quick. Like, he didn't need to save a pocket of regeneration energy. And if he did, he shouldn't be using it on a burn. Yeah. Especially when you have a nurse. Stage right. Like, you're okay. Save that for... You're very likely to get shot. Like, save it for something big like that. That was, yeah, very much a... We need to know that he has regeneration energy.

[00:36:36] But I'm completely okay with it because it led to a really epic scene that I loved so, so much. Oh, the whistling. The regeneration whistling might be the biggest gift that New Who has given, like, me audio-wise. Like, I've always loved the sound effects of Doctor Who, but the regeneration whistle immediate tingles. I don't care how much they use it. Hmm. Well, Mr. Ringeting overpowers and strings up the Doctor, shining the light of the projector through his two hearts

[00:37:06] to use the Doctor's lingering pocket of energy from his bi-generation to build himself a 3D body. But Belinda and the projectionists burn all of the explosive celluloid, releasing the audience trapped inside and blowing a hole in the roof that lets in the daylight. A concentration of light too intense for Luxemperitus, who expands to spread out across the galaxy, no longer a threat to them. So, yeah.

[00:37:34] Um, I thought that was a cool ending, you know? I am everything. I am nothing. Goodbye. Um, it's like, I don't know. Did he want it, though? Did he want to become everything or nothing? Or did he only realize it once he felt the immensity of it? Yeah, it's very interesting.

[00:38:00] And I don't think the 25 minutes we get to spend with this character was ever going to be enough to flesh out their villainry. Like, that's, this needs to be, like, any one of these Pantheon gods could be an entire season arc. So, I think you can interpret it any which way. But to me, it felt very like he was running on instinct. And it's just what happened.

[00:38:30] I don't think that was the plan. But it feels like that would have happened no matter what, even if he got a real body? Yeah, the thing he never did was go outside because there's too much light. That was a bit hazy. But it did remind me of the ending of With Joy, where she turns into the star. Yes. And it is the same where she's, like, giving up her individuality for... Hold on, hold on. She was a dairy girl. Say it right. Individuality.

[00:38:58] Like, the way that they say it always gets me. Now finish your thought. No, yeah. But just to become something greater. And it kind of echoes Sutek's end as well, doesn't it? The spreading out across time and space and whatnot. Yeah. Maybe that's the way that these get killed. Yeah. And weren't the Pantheon gods all supposed to be in the void? And that would be so Lux would have no light.

[00:39:28] So he'd be wanting to escape that for sure. Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, the entire origin of them is a bit wishy-washy as well, with the moonlight and the film and the silver spoon. And I was like, are we getting a werewolf? Oh, no. No. No werewolf. It's a were cartoon. Yeah. Yeah. Either way, the animation of them turning into whatever crazy Fantasia thing

[00:39:57] they were becoming was pretty awesome. Yeah. No, that was – it was just a really fun episode for those reasons too. What did you guys think, though, about the story of the projectionist and his wife? First of all, I'm like, why can't you just take the film reel with your wife and run? But whatever. And then she says, find me. What does that mean? That's interesting. I mean, it could just be a general find me in the afterlife kind of vibe.

[00:40:28] Do you think it'll come back, John? No. No? It's done. It's done. Yeah, that's my instinct as well. I kind of wish we'd spend – you couldn't do this – but I wish we'd spend more time on that story because it's a smaller story than the sacrifice of the fan which the emotion behind that sacrifice, the second tier of the season, the second single tier, didn't get me.

[00:40:57] While I like the fourth wall breaking thing, the sudden emotion of them dying and the doctor realizing what that means and Belinda getting emotional about it as well. You can't put us with these people for 30 seconds and expect – that sounds horrible. That sounds like I don't like people. But expect emotion from me when you suddenly blink them out of existence. But I think it is also that we are supposed to see ourselves in them and so thus identify with them more immediately.

[00:41:27] Oh, maybe that speaks more about my self-loathing than anything else. Oh, so unknown. Doctor Who, therapy for the soul. Exactly. I thought it was funny at the end, they said, according to the laws of the land, sunlight doesn't suit us, which I just thought it was weird because this was a time of sundown towns when it was the opposite, when you had to be inside before sundown. But Miami – It was a weird line. Yeah. Miami was not one such town, actually.

[00:41:57] I looked it up out of curiosity. That's interesting. Maybe that was just a bit of lack of research. But yeah, I took that as we – it's not safe for us to be out in daylight because more people will spot us. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say more it has to do with Belinda being dressed for the evening with like bare shoulders and everything. Oh, interesting. It's funny that they missed that detail when RTD literally just wrote in ripping Lux for not researching NYPD versus Miami-Dade. Yes.

[00:42:27] That was so nitpicky. That was a really good line, but then it's just funny. Like, it's like, he's going to make the mistakes too. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was one line that I forgot to mention that I really – this was the Planet of the Incels line for this episode, which was when the Doctor and Belinda are stuck in the frame and they realize they're in a frame and they're trying to scroll through the frames as fast as possible.

[00:42:57] And he literally says, scrolling up and down won't work. You need to go out. Okay. Okay. I get it. Yeah. Thanks, RTD. I feel bad for scrolling on my phone. I'll go outside and get some air. He's a little bit of a crank pot sometimes. You can tell. Yeah. There's a lot of get off my lawn. I just listened to his interview that he did with David Tennant too. And honestly, very good interview. I'd recommend it.

[00:43:25] And he talked about, you know, how he got into TV and all that. But every now and then you're like, you got a little bit of get off my lawn energy. Yeah. He's a curmudgeon for sure. So speaking of the neighbor yelling at you to get off her lawn, Mrs. Flood, another sighting. She pops up to point out the disappearing TARDIS and then says the thing, limited run only show ends May the 24th.

[00:43:52] Which is, again, episode seven, part one of the two-part finale. Yeah. That was the biggest nod to like the cancellation stuff. Because it's something, I mean, obviously they wrote this ages ago, but recently he stuck his foot in his mouth by saying there might be a hiatus, which was months after he said, you're going to see regular who every year, no big gaps. And then he's like, eh, there might be a hiatus. And then he's like, well, I'm planning seasons four and five.

[00:44:23] So it's, this was obvious, this predates that. But I feel like, like there's, I can't remember what the title of the book is, but basically it covers, it's a, it's a series of letters and correspondence between him and a reporter while he was writing the third season of Doctor Who. So David Tennant's second season. And he puts what, a lot of what's happening in his life finds its way into the script.

[00:44:51] And I'm sure that's true of a lot of writers. So I feel like this burden of expectation from Disney and his return must, must have been like really present in his consciousness. So I just, I kind of want to skip ahead five years and be able to look back at this and know, oh, that's what that meant. I want that interview right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, I feel, I wonder how much it's going to play into the season now that

[00:45:20] they've directly addressed it and whether we're going to look back at the end of the season and been like, oh, you RTD, you were playing with us the whole time. Suddenly it's renewed for another seven seasons. Oh my God. No, please don't. Don't do it. It's going to happen. I'm going to manifest it. And every like three episodes is like an SNL tie over. Yes. Well, there's a, well, that's spoilery.

[00:45:49] No, I won't say that. Stay tuned. Wait, what? I was good. There was, it was an article, but I don't want to spoil it in case people haven't read it about a future episode. That's going to be based on something. Oh, okay. Oh, on the song cut. Well, sorry. Yeah. There we go. That's right. Now you can blame Alicia. Am I supposed to cut this? I don't even know anymore. It's episode six. It's episode six. It's out there in the world. There were articles about it. All right. Yeah.

[00:46:18] That's not some secret knowledge that we've got. Well, we've got some feedback, everybody. From Mark Howell 9000. Alicia, you want to read it? Sure. Hi guys. Thanks for the podcast. I really enjoyed the robot revolution and your podcast covering it regarding Mrs. Flood. I favor her being the master of the land of fiction. Last seen in the, how do you, Troughton, Troughton story? Troughton story? Troughton, yeah.

[00:46:47] The mind-rother. Troughton. RTD does love reintroducing a classic Who villain and this one would fit perfectly as that would make the last two series a fiction that could be reset. What do you think about that possibility before we go on? Um, this is exposed again. I've actually watched it. I can do it. I've watched this one. Okay, yay. It was good, honestly.

[00:47:14] It was, you know, it's really early. The effects are not there, but it's a good story. It's a good story, and I think it's cool to bring them back. That makes complete sense. If it's literally the god of fiction, then storytelling, then that makes complete sense. That's got to be it. What is it, roughly, though? They get trapped in the land of fiction. Like, there are no rules other than, like, belief storytelling kind of thing.

[00:47:42] And, like, I can't remember exactly the mechanic. I think it might have been, like, if the master, like, writes it down, it happens. Hmm. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. I'm trying to think. There's another, like, movie or TV show like that? Anyway. Oh, wait. Was that a plot line in... Never mind. Not The Magician. Not Magician. Anyway.

[00:48:09] So, another possibility for this character is that she's one of the Guardians. Black Guardian or White Guardian. I'm not familiar with this either. Either. So, I think that's from... Oh, what is it called? There was a run of Tom Baker episodes where they have to chase down the key to time or something. Guardian of Light and Time. It's a selection of crystals.

[00:49:09] Okay. Because then I end up learning about things like these Pantheon gods and... Yeah. I hope they do bring this... One of these in. Because it's interesting to see these classic good things come back. Bring back Susan already. Carol Ann Ford is not getting younger. Yes. That's what I was just thinking about too. That might be the one ultimate mystery that we really, really haven't had answered is...

[00:49:38] Is she actually the Doctor's granddaughter? Like, what does that actually mean? Mm-hmm. That's a day one mystery. They keep bringing her up in Shooty's season. The first season. And I don't know why we... Yeah. Like, I don't know if there was like a deal in the works that fell through or something. I don't know. Yeah. Potentially. Yeah. No mention yet this season. But we'll see. We'll see. The season's young. Well, this was very fun, everybody.

[00:50:08] Thank you for coming back for another episode of Doctor Who. Next episode, as you have written here, Alicia, is The Well. It's supposed to be a big one. Yeah. The Well. They show the preview at the end of this one. And it's giving me kind of boom vibes. I think it's a different planet, different story. But I'm wondering if this is going to tie into the why does Belinda look like Mundy question. Yeah. That's the vibe I got from it as well.

[00:50:37] I think it's going to... I don't think they're going to wait too long to tap into the mystery of... Got to cure our case of the Mundys. Where she is. Hmm. Nice. So, send us an email to TARDIS at the Lorehounds dot com. Join our Discord server in the link tree in the show notes. You can get ad-free access to our podcast by going to the link tree and going to Patreon or Supercast and subscribing. Don't forget, we're doing Wheel of Time and Daredevil wrap-ups.

[00:51:06] And we're just starting Andor and The Last of Us. So, there's plenty of stuff on the Lorehounds feeds. If you are on the Sonic Screwcast feed, all 12 of you, make sure you check out the main feed and get everything going on there. And share, you know, if you have other Doctor Who fans who want to hear two Americans bumble through Doctor Who lore under the guidance of a Brit. Well... And especially, go check out Captain's Pod. You got something coming soon?

[00:51:36] Yes. Yeah, that's me! Yeah, if this voice doesn't irritate you, go and enjoy Captain's Pod, which is a Star Trek podcast I do with a relapsed Star Trek fan called Danae that I'm trying to get back into Star Trek. We're about to do a season of the worst episodes of Star Trek. So, this is a great time. Well, that's the way to get her in. This is a great time.

[00:52:01] After three years, it's finally time to show her some of the cringier, more bonkers episodes of Star Trek. So, yeah, we're looking forward to that. And then we'll do Strange New Worlds when that eventually decides to arrive. One day, I'm going to catch up on Star Trek, and I'm going to listen in. I... Start with... Oh, my God. You're trolling me now. Oh, boy. All right. Maybe I'll just listen to Captain's Pod and not watch it.

[00:52:31] We have listeners that do just that, and I respect them immensely. All right. And, of course, our affiliates on the Lorehounds Network, Radioactive Ramblings, Nevermind the Music, a... What are they called? Rings and Rituals, Properly Howard, and We'll Shift Dust, and Star Wars County Timeline Podcast for more Alicia. For more me, for those last two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we're doing Star...

[00:52:59] So, Star Wars, we're doing stuff as it comes out on the Lorehounds feed, and then the Star Wars Cannon Timeline Podcast is not really for live releases. It's more about reflecting and analyzing in chronological lore. It's a vibe-based podcast. I mean, it's a lore-based podcast. Why not both? All right. We're in a lot of those. Lives. Lives. Lores and lives. Thank the people, Alicia. Fools.

[00:53:32] Thank you so much to our Discord server boosters who make that a fun place to hang. Aaron K. Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove71, Athena Angelea, Tina Listu, Nancy M., Ghost of Partition, and Radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our subscribers, but especially to our highest tier, our lore masters.

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[00:54:21] Thanks, everyone. We'll see you all next week. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway.

[00:54:51] Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial Forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your six. With Imperial Forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[00:55:15] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.