Shōgun - E08 - The Abyss of Life (Part 1 of 2 )

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Lorehounds. We're your guides to feudal Japan. I'm David. And I'm Alicia.

[00:00:21] And we are doing a little bit of a gorilla style podcast today. We're covering episode

[00:00:27] eight. But Alicia is jumping in, John is back. But now he's been taken down by some sort of

[00:00:34] flu thing and his whole family. And it's we don't want to go there. I think life is kind of taking

[00:00:40] a wrecking ball to our shoji matt matted house here where we're having an earthquake of our own

[00:00:45] in terms of scheduling. And so we will rebuild and we'll be fine. I think it's just going to

[00:00:50] take John and I a couple of days to get our schedules back and sink. So we may be delayed

[00:00:56] with a more full podcast, a full breakdown. And so I said, why not have Alicia come in and we'll

[00:01:02] just do a short form thing kind of gorilla style hot off the hot off the cuff and have that available

[00:01:10] for everyone until we get our lives back in order. So thanks for swinging by Alicia. I know you've

[00:01:16] got things going on too. You're really busy. It took us a little bit to get coordinated.

[00:01:20] Yeah, there are things that are planned and then there are just accidents that happen.

[00:01:24] Exactly. Life is I don't know. I feel like somebody put a curse on us or something.

[00:01:30] Yes. I was saying to John that my sister asked if I checked if the goblins from

[00:01:36] the Dr. Who Christmas special were following me around.

[00:01:40] That bad, huh? Well, let's just jump right in. I'm going to be a little bit of your foil today

[00:01:47] and let you cook and get your thoughts and reactions to the episode. And then like I said,

[00:01:53] John and I will do a more formalized conversation like we have in past.

[00:01:59] So real quick right off the top, what did you think of this episode?

[00:02:02] I mean, obviously this was probably the episode of the series to date, I suppose.

[00:02:08] It's hard to say because actually with this

[00:02:10] series, I think I say that every week. But no, but this was a really an emotional roller coaster.

[00:02:20] They had me feeling bad for a bantara of all people. Right? Remember Michael's email,

[00:02:24] Dork of the Ninjas voicemail, several episodes back and it was just like,

[00:02:29] oh, I hate that guy. And then here in this moment, you're like, oh my god,

[00:02:32] I'm going to cry for him. Yeah, that doesn't make me like him.

[00:02:36] No, right. He still is who he is, but he's a human. He's a person.

[00:02:42] Yeah, that's a rough day for him. For real. Yeah. And I feel like Ishido's got a rough day coming

[00:02:50] up because Ochiwa is definitely stringing him along. You think so? Yeah, she doesn't.

[00:02:56] The way that she was looking after he made his proposal, that sort of downward glance to the

[00:03:03] side, like this is really embarrassing and I'm really uncomfortable and this person at

[00:03:08] work has just said something to me and I don't get out of this. She did not return.

[00:03:14] She was not giving him a doe-eyed look of love in return. No, no. I mean,

[00:03:19] and from what we've seen between them, how there seems to be no spark on her behalf and

[00:03:26] what he's like, you are this goddess that I looked at from afar and sorry, that's not

[00:03:31] what most women want to hear. I think if you were like, yes, and I'm going to Machiavelli with you

[00:03:38] and let's make some plans, baby, and bring some intellectual meat to the table,

[00:03:44] she might be more interested. Right, interesting. So less adoration and more

[00:03:50] conspiratorial. I'm being a real partner. Yeah, got it. Got it. I mean, she's pulling

[00:03:54] the strings on him, right? What did she say? You're all but play things to me.

[00:03:58] I'm paraphrasing her here. Yeah. But a couple of episodes ago, she was like, yeah, you guys are

[00:04:03] like toys. Yeah. My little windup figures. Yeah, she's, I can't wait to see what her,

[00:04:09] what the end game is for her because she's a very inscrutable figure.

[00:04:14] Like she seems very gung-ho in the way that she's set, but I have a feeling that

[00:04:20] that's not where she's going to end up. Got it. Okay. Yeah. And maybe just like

[00:04:24] knowing television. We don't know what her end game is either. Is she seeking power for herself,

[00:04:33] or is she making sure that the air is installed properly? Is this all a game for her to

[00:04:42] make sure that the air gets through? Because doesn't her, what would you, I don't know how to

[00:04:48] relate the Tycho's actual wife as a power first consort or however that's

[00:04:54] the wife, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Determined. Like the whole idea was to get the Tycho of age.

[00:05:01] And so is, oh, I know what I was going to say. That wasn't the Tycho's first wife. She was like,

[00:05:07] you're making alliances with the wrong people. Right. You should be aligned with Toronaga because

[00:05:13] he loves the realm. He loves the air. And Ishido, she just cuts him down.

[00:05:19] He is nothing. He came from nothing. That was rough. Yeah. I mean, I suspected Ocheba is a

[00:05:26] mirror to Toronaga in a way and that's what I'm waiting to. I just think that, I just think

[00:05:32] there's more to her than this blind revenge. Okay. We'll see. Maybe I'll be proven correct.

[00:05:38] Maybe I won't. Right. Right. So other than Buntaro, you know who else I felt sad for this

[00:05:43] episode is Omi who seemed to be the only one really mourning. Yeah. He was, he gave a quite

[00:05:49] quite a heartfelt speech at the wake and I thought he had some, you know, we didn't have

[00:05:56] Fuji-sama this episode, which is very sad, but he did have some good looks. And then the whole

[00:06:02] part of the... It's weird because was he manipulating Nagakado at one stage and then

[00:06:09] they developed a friendship? I mean, they were the only two of the samurai lords that

[00:06:15] were of the same sort of age group, right? So they had a natural affinity just there.

[00:06:21] They hung out. They were friends and I guess maybe we were all little suspicious about how much of

[00:06:27] that was just convenience or manipulation, but it seems like there was genuine friendship.

[00:06:32] Right. Yeah. Yeah. He did seem really sad at the wake for sure.

[00:06:36] Which makes me like Omi better. I love, I loved though the moment, one of my favorite

[00:06:41] moments was the come up in the translation with the Portuguese priest when he comes up

[00:06:47] and he tries translating for Blackthorn and he's like, no, you're wrong. And then he just says

[00:06:55] to himself, I want coal in Japanese. Like, boom. Not more firewood. Yeah. That must have felt

[00:07:01] so good. Yeah, for sure. We have to talk about of course the major thing of the episode.

[00:07:07] Sure. Which gives complicated feelings for I do think that I'm sorry,

[00:07:13] don't have the name in front of me here. Matu. Yeah, here Matu. Yep.

[00:07:16] I do think that he knew what the game was when he signed up for Sibuku, but I still,

[00:07:24] I don't know. I think he really meant you don't have to go this far when he was like,

[00:07:30] don't make me do this to Torinaga. So it's hard for me not to see Torinaga a little bit blemished by

[00:07:38] this. I see. Yeah, it's really interesting because they know each other so well and have been around

[00:07:46] together for so long and Hiramatsu obviously is a generation older than him and so has watched

[00:07:52] Torinaga grow up. So the ability for him to anticipate and be in the right position,

[00:07:59] you know, that all makes sense. How much of that conversation was real and how much of

[00:08:07] was it theater? There were so much wrapped in. I'm in the middle of doing my second watch and

[00:08:14] I paused it. I woke up really early this morning and started watching it before my family got up

[00:08:19] and then I had to pause it. I was like, okay, from here on out, this episode is so intense.

[00:08:24] I really have to be locked in and not distracted while I'm watching this because I really want to get

[00:08:29] it all. Now that we know that this was Torinaga's, you know, that this has all been a plan, this

[00:08:36] has all been theater of Torinaga, I really want to watch those reaction shots again and I want

[00:08:41] to see the looks in their eyes that they're exchanging because yeah, I have no idea.

[00:08:47] And that's an interesting thing that I've been thinking about too with Torinaga.

[00:08:50] I don't know what you think about this, but he can't have predicted all of these

[00:08:57] little variations. Right. He couldn't predict that Nagakado was going to try to assassinate his

[00:09:05] half brother. But he's, Pivots like a master, you know? That's what makes him who he is.

[00:09:11] He's very clever, very strong-willed. Constantly adjusting plans. There's an

[00:09:18] old saying in the military, no plan survives contact with the enemy. You know, you go into a

[00:09:24] battle having a plan, but the moment you engage your plan just goes to hell and so you have to

[00:09:30] constantly be re-evaluating. This whole episode had me thinking about chess.

[00:09:36] Okay, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that Torinaga's been playing like 10D chess the entire time.

[00:09:43] Exactly. But his willingness to sacrifice a piece like that.

[00:09:49] Yeah, well, that's like giving up your queen, you know?

[00:09:53] Absolutely. Because Hiramatsu is respected by everyone. He's a steady hand. He's a calming

[00:10:01] influence on the younger members of the clan who might be a little bit more prone to action.

[00:10:09] And I think that there are few people Torinaga can be more himself with.

[00:10:14] I don't think that Hiramatsu and Torinaga ever explicitly talked about this plan.

[00:10:20] No, no. He just, he, I think that Hiramatsu knows Torinaga's game and, you know, saw how

[00:10:27] the pieces were moving. And he was like, it's either these three generals who are young and

[00:10:33] capable and should be fighting in this war or me.

[00:10:39] And thought about that, that's really interesting. It's not dissimilar to what happened with

[00:10:43] Blackthorn and his Gardner. The Gardner was like, okay, well, I'm gonna take one for the village.

[00:10:51] I'm gonna take one for myself. And then I'll teach, I'll give Blackthorn a little backhanded

[00:10:58] lesson on the way out. But it's interesting, he's,

[00:11:04] Hiramatsu is looking at what's there and that's very much in the conversation he has with his son

[00:11:10] with Bintaro. He's like, no, you're needed in the war. Your lord needs you more than your lord

[00:11:18] needs me. So you can't join me in death. I mean, there's a whole other side to the Bintaro

[00:11:23] thing. Yeah, well, yeah, that also just you must know, you must know what it is to be denied,

[00:11:30] which is, oh, just like after first that harsh rejection from Mariko. And now he has to kill

[00:11:39] his, you know, finish his own father's death. And, and the last words is now you know how

[00:11:43] your wife feels. That's so rough. So it's interesting, he's really wound up. So when

[00:11:49] they do get into battle, a battle situation at some point, because apparently, you know, episode nine

[00:11:54] Crimson Sky, Crimson Horse Shit, right? That's what the episode title should be called.

[00:12:02] Is Bintaro, is he going to be a sad boy and kind of mopey or is he going to be a fury? And is he

[00:12:11] going to be on at the tip of the spear, so to speak, and taking enemies left and right?

[00:12:17] Right. Well, he probably will fight like he has nothing to live for. So

[00:12:21] I wonder what kind of Falcon he would be if we were going to give Bintaro maybe an eagle,

[00:12:27] you know, because they're kind of, to be honest, he or a hawk are kind of stupid.

[00:12:32] They're not very clever. Yeah, okay, okay.

[00:12:35] They're majestic. They're beautiful, but they're not they're not clever birds.

[00:12:39] I thought that the the line about God's Hawk, of course, I'm about to go do a deep dive on

[00:12:44] hawks and figure out, you know, the different kind. Why is a God's Hawk different than a

[00:12:50] peregrine Falcon? At the very first of the season, I believe that's what Toronaga was describing to

[00:12:57] Nagakado was how his favorite bird will be very high up in the sky and use the sun as cover and

[00:13:05] then, you know, strike with a lot of speed and momentum, right? And kinetic energy. Yeah,

[00:13:14] it'd be interesting to do somebody I'm sure on the internet will do out like a full

[00:13:17] falconoid breakdown of all the characters. I bet it exists. Oh yeah, the characters. Yeah.

[00:13:22] Right. You take the characters and then match them with the Falcon types.

[00:13:27] But yeah, Bintaro, he let his father's head roll. So my head canon is he was just

[00:13:34] it's not it's not yeah, he was too emotional and he didn't want to risk it. Right. It's not that,

[00:13:40] of course, the producers didn't know that fact. It's right, right, right, right. Well, I think

[00:13:46] the thing from the exact same thought when the when it was about to happen, I was like, oh,

[00:13:52] are they going to show a clean cut or how's it going to go? And I had to answer that same

[00:13:57] question in my head with the fact that if he hadn't if he had done the thing where he'd

[00:14:02] left it so it didn't go rolling that that would I think that would be more visually shocking

[00:14:10] than like say the canon scene or the boiling scene. I think the fact that it rolls, you know,

[00:14:14] the head rolls right is more like we could deal with that. I don't think we could deal with

[00:14:21] the fact that it would no, that's true. Oh man, I saw recently love lies bleeding and I won't

[00:14:26] describe it but there is a visual there that's going to live in my head anyway.

[00:14:31] Was that a good movie? Was that a? Yes. Okay. It's a very good movie. Yeah. So

[00:14:35] La Cumera is no longer number five, it's number six. And then I just saw you posted the we've got

[00:14:42] Oscar dates for next year. Yeah, we have three days less in between but oh damn.

[00:14:51] Well, I'll just plan to save up my flu and cold season for that period so I can have an

[00:14:55] excuse to binge movie binge watch all the movies in one go. Yeah. So it was interesting we finally

[00:15:02] got to see not Blackthorne reunited with his boat but reunited with one of his crewmen and it was

[00:15:09] not quite what he thought it was going to be. I really identified with that I love characters

[00:15:15] again that are between two different cultures like that. I think they changed the sailor's

[00:15:23] accents because he was like sounding very British in the first episode and in this one it almost

[00:15:27] sounded like he was trying to sound Dutch but he didn't. He's Canadian for the record. Funny.

[00:15:35] I think his name was Samson or? Salomon. Salomon, that's right. Yeah, right. Is that a Dutch

[00:15:41] name at least? Could be. It's not like a Yonor case or something. Right, right, right.

[00:15:50] The whole scene of him walking down the alley was great where he's just like oh damn and then the

[00:15:57] realization wait did I used to stink like this? Yeah, exactly. He's now learned that silks and

[00:16:05] baths are actually kind of nice. Yeah, exactly. He's very much luxuriating in the new style.

[00:16:12] Why did he take his coat off? I was doing CSI right? I was like wait a minute.

[00:16:18] You're leaving evidence. Yeah, they said on the podcast is because he was so

[00:16:25] on the FX podcast that he was so disgusted with being touched by his dirty drunk shipmate.

[00:16:33] He was disgusted because of the guy touched his jacket.

[00:16:38] He's gone full like nope. Right, these barbarians, these stinking barbarians. Yeah. Oh wow,

[00:16:45] that's rough. Then this whole time that has been his thing, right? Like where's my shipmates?

[00:16:48] Where are my shipmates? Yeah, well to be fair he was asking more about the boat than the people

[00:16:53] who were on it. He asked about them like once. So I've come to this conclusion. I don't know

[00:17:00] what thoughts you have on Blackthorn if you've got more notes but I had this thought

[00:17:05] because when Blackthorn was trying to entreat Yabashige, sorry, Yabashige,

[00:17:12] drink everyone. I guess there's a drinking game now when we mispronounce things or when we try to

[00:17:19] pronounce them correctly. Anyway, when he's doing that and Yabashige is like oh,

[00:17:25] you know this is kind of cool. I'm a little bit flattered by Blackthorn and Omi shoots him that

[00:17:31] look like dude you cannot be serious it's like when you're at the bar and you're like your

[00:17:36] friend is like are you serious? You really interested in this other person? Come on.

[00:17:40] And I realized and then of course there's the whole scene, you know that part with

[00:17:44] with Moniko and then with his with the sailors that Blackthorn is a user. He's toxic.

[00:17:53] He will use you. He will charm you and make you feel great and you'll be sort of enamored

[00:17:59] with him up until the point that he's done and then once those that diverges

[00:18:04] he's on his own way and I think that's what crew member said basically it was like you know every

[00:18:10] decision you made led us further and further astray to the point that there's only six of us now and

[00:18:16] we're living in this really horrible state. So right, you know and I think Moniko feels that

[00:18:22] way too. I think everybody is starting to realize that Blackthorn's game is Blackthorn

[00:18:26] and not for anybody else. Yeah, I don't know. I think Moniko still has feelings for him. She just

[00:18:35] knows that like it's just it's just a no but it doesn't mean that she doesn't wish sure that there

[00:18:41] were a world. Right, right new world. One thing I common trade I'd noticed this episode is Blackthorn,

[00:18:49] Yabashige and Ochiba are all people who want to control their own fate. They've all said

[00:18:55] things to that effect in this show. Right, yeah fate was a big topic again in this. Fate and loyalty

[00:19:05] right were the two big sort of thematic elements but yeah what does he say? I have to

[00:19:10] whittle my own fate so I'm whittling which is you know I've only got small amounts of material

[00:19:17] to work with here so I have only a few choices left. I noticed that for sure. Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:24] Yeah, they all talk about being masters of their fate and then people like I wonder if

[00:19:31] it will end better for the people who haven't said that. People like Mariko and Tornaga.

[00:19:38] Well the people who are just loyal and just go along with it right? Right. Like you know Fuji or

[00:19:43] somebody else you know in the in just people in the village just getting by on a day to day

[00:19:48] basis. Oh if anything bad happens to Fuji I swear to God. We riot. Yeah it was I mean it makes sense

[00:19:57] she has to stay behind to look after you know all of his affairs and stuff like that. I think it's

[00:20:02] you know maybe Tornaga didn't order her to come. Well it's interesting dude I had this question

[00:20:09] is Blackthorn still a hatamoto? He gave it up I guess. I mean because his shipmate or no

[00:20:17] someone said to him like you gave up being a hatamoto this episode. Yeah well that's the question

[00:20:24] because he's still traveling with the group but then oh because he's not staying within the castle.

[00:20:30] In the castle walls right Alvino says you know yeah usually a hatamoto would be inside of his

[00:20:34] Lord's wall because it literally means under the banner right that's what the hatamoto title

[00:20:39] means. But I think he gave it up when he's you know crimson horseshit. Yeah exactly and

[00:20:44] when he walked out but yet he's still being but he was still given a title or some land sorry he

[00:20:51] was still given a little regent of land that was worth certain amount of koku. So he presumably

[00:21:01] he maintains that and whether he is a kind of a lord now that just doesn't have a hatamoto

[00:21:08] title or is he still yeah because she gave him the books when they were coming into the city

[00:21:13] said you know your service is done. I thought it was tied to the title but I don't know. Yeah

[00:21:19] that's a question I don't know so. Speaking of land greatest line of the episode is to your neighbors.

[00:21:28] Was that just a perfect Torinaga screw like give me your land but.

[00:21:33] And then I'm gonna send you to the regents which everyone knew once they were sending

[00:21:39] the priest that it wasn't for real. And he knows that Alvino is going to tell the truth or tell what

[00:21:45] his eyes saw. Right one thing I meant to look up is I didn't know that Tokyo was all these wet planes

[00:21:54] then Abby was sharing today on the discord that there's how many rivers like. I don't know I've

[00:22:00] got the discord open now here let me scroll back. Nearly a hundred right. Hundred and seven she

[00:22:03] said present day. That's in the 15 major rivers and God knows how many other tributaries yeah so

[00:22:14] she said there's a total of 107 in present day Tokyo. Oh it's interesting because I wonder

[00:22:19] I don't know if they worked with the Dutch at all because obviously the Dutch become allies

[00:22:25] and of course the Dutch this entire country was built on dealing with wet planes

[00:22:31] taking a bunch of canals yeah. Yeah interesting so I meant to look that up but obviously it's

[00:22:36] been a crazy day for us all. Right exactly cool any other thoughts or observations you wanted to

[00:22:43] share with everyone? I mean I guess just where it all ends that so Mariko she again just has

[00:22:50] the best way with words today we all suffered a great loss I won't deepen the wound by

[00:22:56] disagreeing when he asks basically asks her did I do the right thing and say it doesn't matter

[00:23:01] it's a done. I think Mariko was the MVP of this episode for sure she was dropping bombs all over

[00:23:07] the place I'd rather live a thousand years her enemy is fear she's just she's incredible she's

[00:23:16] a. And she's the big mystery for next episode like what's in the letter what's Mariko's part?

[00:23:22] Well I think Mariko if we're gonna if we're gonna do the Falcon comparison she's gotta be a peregrine

[00:23:28] because she is a small fast very intelligent missile being aimed right at the heart of

[00:23:36] Lady Ochiba I think he's sending her in as a hot missile streaking into caused distraction and

[00:23:44] dissension and so that when he then gets there after his 49 days that there's gonna be stuff going

[00:23:52] he's gonna be able to take advantage the situation is gonna be destabilized so that he can take

[00:23:56] advantage of it. Yeah well I can't wait for the next episode to see this random trio of Blackthorn

[00:24:03] Yabashige and Mariko. Right yeah that's a fun one. Oh it's gonna be uncomfortable for Yabashige

[00:24:09] sometimes I think. He's so good though he's hilarious. His reactions are gonna be priceless.

[00:24:14] I want to see his death ranking book above above being eaten by a dog but below being boiled is

[00:24:22] that I don't know how to have my nose I wrote it down somewhere awesome okay cool well thanks

[00:24:26] Alicia thanks for hopping on I appreciate it I hope you have a good rest of your weekend I know

[00:24:31] you've got some big plans so enjoy those everyone else definitely stay tuned once John is able to

[00:24:40] sit up and take some nourishment and hold the microphone in his hand we will get a full episode

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[00:27:33] again go and check out all of them to our loremaster subscribers I'm going to skip reading

[00:27:40] your names out today I know sacrilege but you know who you are we appreciate you and to anyone

[00:27:46] else who's listening thank you very much for your patronage be it just listening on the public feeds

[00:27:52] or those of you who do subscribe thank you very much thank you so very much it's not just

[00:27:59] about John and I or Alicia it's about our community and about having a fun human-centered

[00:28:05] non-algorithmically driven community where we get to nerd out and talk about the kinds of things that

[00:28:12] give us joy in our lives because world's kind of a crazy place right now and it's nice to have a

[00:28:16] fun little place where we can talk and share and think about things we'll shift dust listeners

[00:28:22] oh yeah sorry of course I am sorry Alicia we're gonna do the first three episodes of

[00:28:29] week in 23 together so just hang tight a couple weeks and enjoy the Hugh Howie interview for now

[00:28:36] and yeah that's a good one the first three awesome all right Alicia thanks good to see you I appreciate

[00:28:40] it and we'll see you on the next oh last note we are going to do a season wrap up podcast and

[00:28:47] we're gonna schedule it so that Alicia John and I can all be on the mic together and then we're

[00:28:52] gonna talk to our friend Nate Ledbetter who's been all up in our discord dropping all kinds

[00:28:58] of great insights thank you Nate so much for all the insights we're looking forward to having you

[00:29:02] on the podcast Alicia have a great weekend and we'll see you next time everyone listen to monkey

[00:29:06] man bye oh yes and the monkey bit that's right okay bye and happy birthday dupe 71 the Lorehounds

[00:29:12] podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds you can send questions and feedback

[00:29:16] and voicemails at the Lorehounds.com slash contact get early and ad free access to all

[00:29:23] Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds any opinions stated are ours personally and do

[00:29:28] not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening