VisionQuest - S01E08 (finale) - Forever

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_09] Welcome to Comics vs. The Lorehounds Podcast, your guides to superhero family reunions. I'm Alicia, one of the 20 billion nanos requisitioned for Ultron's new form.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Jean, Jocasta's avenging AI angel. Is it AI or SI? I kid you, it's AI. And we're here to land this plane. The Vision Quest finale is out, ending the show and the WandaVision, Agatha all along. Vision Quest trilogy. Trilogy. All spoilers are on the table because we're about to break this whole episode down, including those end credits scenes and talk about what it all means for Doomsday. Doomsday.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_09] So we, as usual, reserve the right to bring up any comic book connections as well or connections to any and all previously released material in the MCU, obviously the aforementioned trilogy of shows, especially and some, yeah, linked movies. Like if you're wondering how Wanda ended up under that mountain, then you should watch Multiverse of Madness, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_09] And, of course, do also catch up on our previous episodes this season about Vision Quest if you haven't yet, because in our season previews where we really laid out the comic book connections to this trilogy as a whole. And then, of course, we did episode breakdowns for episodes one and two together and three and four together, five through seven together. And now we are back for the finale. First time this season we get to do just one episode going deep.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02] So maybe it won't be three hours.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_09] Challenge accepted. No, please not. Jean, what did you think of the season finale of Vision Quest? All spoilers on the table.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, I'm just going to say it was great. I really enjoyed this series. I thought the finale was wonderful. Well done. And really gave me more than I expected, quite frankly. And, yeah, I just, it was a wonderful way to wrap up these three shows. The thrilogy. I'm not going to call it a trilogy. I'm going to call it a thrilogy.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02] Because it was thrilling for me to watch how they, you know, put the pieces together to fit. And this was an appropriate ending. And I'll just say, again, the acting, of course, is superb. Paul Bettany was amazing. James Spader was amazing. The writing. You know, each time we've spoken about this show, we've talked about the writing. And I'll just leave with this. Grief isn't love. It's fear.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02] And we can do the next hour on what that means for us, for me, for you, for our general audience, for the world, and for what this show is trying to represent in just that one little soundbite.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_09] Well, we're definitely going to dive into that soundbite later on. Because, yeah, I mean, I didn't resonate with it at first. But then as he explained it more, then I started to get it more.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_09] But I'll say I was, I had to laugh at myself. I was overcomplicating things as usual. So it's like the client really is just grandbaby Horton. I love his name's Virgil. Nerdy. Sorry to any Virgils out there. And that mustache. Yeah, mustache. Yeah. And more internet points to you, Jean, for keeping the faith about Wanda being in Doomsday. I mean, they even showed me Latverian witches. Yes, yes.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_09] And I am so, I've been burned too many times before. I'm like, I don't believe it. I don't believe it until they show me her face. There you go. And we got slightly more Billy than we hoped.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02] I was so off on this. Because I was adamant that we were not getting any Billy. And we got Billy. Yeah. And that was really cool.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_09] A shame no Catherine Hahn. I mean, obviously she was hinted at and especially one moment we'll talk about. But I guess she was too expensive.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02] I don't blame her.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And I don't think any of us actually dared hope for the second credit scene. They didn't even, we didn't get the screeners, but those who did didn't even see that credit scene. So they really got us all.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02] And kudos. I hope more studios do that.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02] You know, honestly, I hope more studios do that because then we're all in for big surprises at the end. And that's really, you know, I think that's really cool. And so stop giving all the things away.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_09] And finally, you've shouted this out before, but I just got to shout out the Mick Giacchino score. Just absolutely supporting everything that's happening on screen and really bringing it to life. So just operating on all levels of production with this show. Love to see it. We got some feedback from Ken W. I thought I'd share at the top, just some summary feedback. He said, all I have to say is hell to the yes.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_09] Many S's.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02] Many S's.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_09] Family is everything. Everything is family. What a way to end the season. And those post-credit scenes bring on Doomsday. And then wrote back again to say, just done a rewatch and Ultron pissing on Wanda's grave had me in stitches. Some crackers during the show's recaps. Best landing of a series finale, in my opinion. Interesting. Now on to the Rings of Power.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, gosh. Rings of Power.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_09] Have you started that yet?

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02] I just finished episode four.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_09] Oh, okay. You were way ahead of me. I've seen one episode so far.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. All right. Okay. Let me shut my mouth now. I'll shut my mouth.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_09] But I hear, I mean, episode one was great, but I hear episode two is the one people are getting really excited about. Okay. Jean's just shutting his mouth. Yes. All right. All right.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02] Because I, yeah. Oh, we won't. No. We'll talk about it after you've seen it.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_09] Okay. Well, if anyone, any Rings of Power fans are listening, that is being covered in full on the main Lorehounds feed and the Tolkien feed. So, but we are here to discuss the finale of Vision Quest and we're going to be talking through as usual, one plot arc at a time, not per se by scene by scene. And yeah, make sure that you are caught up through the finale. Although we've already spoiled all the biggest things.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_09] The finale is episode eight, of course, called Forever Vision's Quest to Embrace His True Identity Comes to a Close. And this was written and directed by the showrunner himself, Terry Metalis. And Jean, do you want to set up how it all begins?

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, let's do it. So, a client dinner. The client is revealed to be Virgil Horton, Phineas's grandson and Josephine Carrington's husband, who restored Vision and created Jocasta to transfer Josephine's consciousness into that body and to also transfer his consciousness into Vision so he and Josephine could live happily together forever.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_09] Because he assumed that her anger at him would just disappear.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02] Gosh, I hate Virgil.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_09] He's detestable.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, he's one of the, I think this is one of the characters that I've most wanted to see get his comeuppance in the MCU.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_09] So, do we all agree that the human-killing robot Ultron is better than the smarmy man that he's based on?

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yes.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah? No, you're not wrong. Um, yes, we found out that Virgil four years before this, so this was during the blip, he took a job at S.W.O.R.D. to rebuild Vision, because obviously he is a specialist in that area, and then kind of like siphoned off some of that vibranium to build Jocasta on the side, I guess. Um, so S.W.O.R.D., like we, I guess they just stole Vision's corpse from the battlefield

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_09] in Wakanda and managed to steal some vibranium while they were at it too?

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think that's what happened. And, I mean, in the confusion of the snap and trying to, you know, deal with all of those things, I'm sure that they were able to facilitate the transfer of Vision's body, although it could also be, what's his name? It could have been the Avengers who took Vision's body. Who gave him to S.W.O.R.D. or something? Yeah, who gave him to S.W.O.R.D.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_09] Definitely.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02] I could see that as well.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Tony Stark would. Not Bucky. Yes.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02] No, I could see Bucky doing that.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_09] I don't know.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02] I could see Bucky doing that. Bucky was working with the feds when he was in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, I guess you're right. You're right. He was. And in the Captain America movie that was not great.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_09] Great New World.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02] And I definitely could see Sam doing it as well.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Yeah. True. True. Original Cap would never.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02] No, I don't think Steve would have done that. No.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_09] Well, okay. So now we know that he was Virgil's husband. But, and so it makes sense why he wanted Jocasta to. Jocasta was.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02] What's her name? Sorry.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_09] He was Josephine's husband. Josephine. Josephine. Yeah, Virgil was Josephine's husband. Yes. And so it's clear why he wanted Jocasta to recover her memories. I'm less clear on why he wanted Vision to recover his, or I guess that was just the deal that he, like, okay, fine, you can have access to your source code as long as you sign this contract that makes you come to me so I can have your body after that.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think so.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_09] He's like, I'm going to erase it. It doesn't matter.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe he needed Vision to be fully complete in order to himself fully be complete when he transferred his consciousness into Vision.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, true, true.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02] Like emotions and everything. Because then he could have used, you know, Jim's body added to do that. But maybe there's something with Visions, you know, just having to have his emotions and having to be a complete person in order for his consciousness to be accepted in that way. Hmm.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Or yeah, just that he was like, sure, you can have your memories back. I'm just going to delete them. Yeah, so he's indeed the grandson and not just her lover, but actually her husband. But when she woke up in the Jocasta body, he deleted her memory of himself because she was raging from the moment she saw him. So what do we think about her death now?

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_09] Like, did she really die of this degenerative brain disease? Is she just mad about them selling her tech to Stark? Yeah. At what point, like, what was the state of their marriage? Like, when did it really fall apart? Because she, yeah, this does not seem like the reunion of two soulmates for sure.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02] No, I think, um, I don't know if he had a hand directly in her death.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01] Hmm.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02] But I think that based on how the flashback showed, it was just everything that led up to her death. With him, you know, just taking her creation, which he insisted on trying to build a better place, a better world, and selling it to Stark.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02] And he's very flippant about it. He's like, yeah, I sold it because, you know, I want to be rich so I can buy back my heritage. And it's probably not the first time he said that to her.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02] You know? So she knew that he wanted to use her, you know, her creation, not for the betterment of humanity, but just to get rich so he could salve his wounds from whatever perceived slights he has about his family.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_09] And this is also the thing. Did he ever love Jocasta? Is he really capable of that kind of love? Or was it just, um, I have the feeling like she's the one bringing the brains to the table and he's just got this notebook that he got from his mom. Because he does not seem extremely competent with tech throughout this.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02] He says he's not.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_09] He says that he was the one with the hardware, but I just, in general, I don't have the deepest level of faith in his brilliance overall. I feel like he just inherited this code in a notebook.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, totally agree. Totally agree. Now, the question of him loving Josephine, we don't get enough to really say if he was just using her or if they were truly in love. Right? But I can't say that, you know, the bits that we did get is him just totally using her.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like she is a means to an end.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02] And if we can be happy together, then that's great. But there's something else that I need from you.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02] Um, that's totally independent of us.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, I do.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02] So he was using her, I think.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_09] I do feel like he's, he's still hiding something because it's, it, the way I interpreted the way they displayed it is that he had a memory of her raging at him when she woke up. But she's like, why would you delete me? And it's like, he remembers that. And then he makes up some bullshit about like, I just wasn't good enough for you until I have, you know, a synth body like yours. That was bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think any of that's true.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_09] I think that he is the type of person who maybe even convinces himself that he means certain things, but is always just after his bigging up his own ego, which he's tied to his, his own, the Horton name, you know, that, um, he's even today you screw up bad enough and people will say you Horton did. I really need to see that.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_09] I hear that come back in the MCU more, but, but yeah, they still, they have this failure that he's ashamed of has that, that painting that we saw in vision's mind space. It's real. And it's right on the dining room wall in a place of honor of the synthetic man, but question. Okay. Question about Jim, the synthetic man. So I was like, so I think, okay, Jim, not actually still alive at all.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_09] Only a piece of vision source code as you know, that other bit of Ultron wasn't everything. Fine, fine, fine. I get that now. So he was not in love with your Costa. Who was he in love with? And I guess that must've been the forties or fifties. Is it someone known?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think so.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_09] Like Peggy or something. No.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you, you are so messy. Oh my God. Yo.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, she was on her own after Cap fell in the ice.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you are so messy.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_09] Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Or Agatha was alive then too. She was doing war stuff also.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. I don't know. It was a, we don't, yeah, we don't know. We don't know.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_09] All right.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02] But I don't think it was Peggy Carter for the record. I'm not that messy.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_09] We'll see her back in Doomsday.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02] There were, I know in the comics there were, you know, Human Torch did have, the original Human Torch did have, you know, love interest. But they weren't introduced in this thing.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_09] Right.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02] In this thing.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_09] No, it would be off comics if, if they hadn't be someone that we already knew in the MCU now. Like he, yeah, he had especially one person in particular, but she has not been introduced. So, yeah.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I think the, in the comics, it might've been the hero, hero Spitfire, a British hero, pretty sure it's Spitfire.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_09] Right.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02] But we're not introduced to any of these characters.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_09] No. Jacqueline Fallsworth. So we haven't.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02] There you go.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, she's obviously would fit being a British aristocrat, as you said, she would fit in the world that we find Virgil in, but she has not been introduced. So it could be that they keep the same person. It could be that they try to like tie it to someone we already know. I guess. I guess it doesn't matter at this point. I hope it will matter in the future.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02] You want an original Human Torch TV show or callback? Yeah, sure. Sure.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Okay. Make him kill Hitler, like in the comics.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly. Or at the very least, just punch him in the face.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, yeah. And get Peggy in there. She doesn't have to be a love interest, but get her in there just for funsies. And that's how we get Jarvis back.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02] Ah. No.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_09] Said it during that era. And we can like have- Feige, are you listening, Feige?

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02] You might as well just pay her already, please. Feige.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_09] Um, so, but in this notebook, the Virgil inherited from his grandfather, um, I, there was this little circular, like spiral sign that I was wondering what it was. And I think when we see Ultron, and we've seen this before, but I put in the notes for us to look at specifically.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_09] When we see, uh, Ultron dissipate at the end of UltraVision, um, and he puts his hand on, on, uh, BabyVision's hand and goes away. He, he's in this like sort of three-dimensional ball of code. And I think that's what the drawing in the book is. What do you think? You can see them side by side.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I see it. Um, I don't know if it's the exact same thing. It might be.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I mean, the, the, the squiggles squiggle around the outside.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02] But when I, when I saw it the first, this, I thought Hydra at first.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_09] I see what you mean.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02] That's the first thing that came to mind. But then when I'm looking at it here, it's like within the, the inner circle, you almost have, you see those, those dots that go across. It's almost like eyes looking at me.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_09] Like a nucleus. Yeah.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_09] It looks like a cell to me, like a digital cell. Yeah. Anyway, that's my theory that it's, uh, this, that it's that what we saw, um, that which we saw. Um, yeah. I, but okay.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_09] If Virgil, even if he didn't kill his wife or do something else terrible, we know at least she was very mad at him for selling off her company to Stark while she was dying, uh, which he did to buy back the house. Um, but now, like what was their marriage like if now he's willing to just for funsies play puppets with her and vision and make them serve him?

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_09] Um, which reminded me of Milena with that, with that tablet in Black Widow.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. Yeah. With the pig. I, I, I thought about Westworld in that moment.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] I thought about that. I thought about Ex Machina in that moment.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, sure.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, so it was, it was really like, you know, who controls who and how we control these sentient. You know, we want to believe they're sentient, but still have some control over them. Um, so it was really interesting to, to see him in that way.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02] And yeah, like how could he, he, but the thing is, I, I, I know that he knows that Jocasta would not forgive him, which is why he needed that control.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_09] But he, like, if he's genuinely trying to win her back, I, I just don't understand, like at least, okay, so he has her locked down for a minute so she can't start screaming at him until he has a chance to explain. But to have her puppets serve him, like that is just, it just shows.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_04] Next level creepy.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, it shows that he has zero awareness of, you know, of course she would be disgusted with that.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes. Disgusted with, with everything.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02] With all of it, you know, transferring my mind into this body that you can control, that's number one. You know what I'm saying? Like deleting memories of mine, you know, that's number two. You know, just everything that he's done to her, there is no reason why she would ever look past and say, hey, I'll give you another chance. Absolutely zero.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02] He's a terrible human being.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_09] And we just see that he has this table laden with food, and he's the only one who can eat it.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_04] That can eat.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_09] His food's all going to go to waste. He just wants it to look at so he can feel like a big man with this table full of food, but no one to actually share it with.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02] Just a horrible human being.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. He says, I promise that it's better than that shoe leather we used to eat at that place in Queens. And then he throws in such small portions, which Luke, after he watched this episode, had to text me because we talked about that old vaudeville joke a lot on Silo because it showed up there.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02] It's just, you know, he's just, ah. And then he says, what? No laugh? No, there's nothing funny about you, bro.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_09] No, yeah.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02] There's absolutely nothing funny about you. There's nothing that you can say in this situation that will cause spontaneous and genuine laughter or happiness.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02] There's nothing about you that screams that.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_09] No, he is. He's try-hard incarnate. Like, he's trying to make these pop cultural references, but he always gets them wildly wrong, like confusing Yogi Bear and Scooby-Doo, or GoBots and Transformers, Autobots and stuff. Just, oh, just so cringe try-hard. And then he tries to force them to laugh, which is creepy as hell. And Tania Miller is so cool. Yeah.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_09] And then hands Vision a knife. He knows Vision will want to stab him with just to infuriate him more. And then boops him on the nose. He gets what's coming to him. I did notice there's not really, there's almost no servants present. And I guess it's because Virgil spent all of his money on the house and can't afford them. But then I'm like, who's maintaining this estate?

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02] No, I think he has money. I think he has money. I think he has money. Because the sell, I mean, he probably made a ton of money from selling to Stark. Right? So he doesn't, yeah, I don't think the estate would have cost all of that. Because he does have security.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02] Right? So I'm sure he does have money. And there's probably staff that we didn't see hidden in the background or catered or whatever. Because he wanted this moment to be about the control that he has over these two people, not anyone else.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. And they're not going to come running if they hear fighting breaking out.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, they're going to go running. They're not going to come running. They're going to go running.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, we see, obviously, he has like a militia.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02] Right. So he has money. He's well off.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_09] I would imagine that he would want to make bot servants like Jocasta had in her head, but, you know, physically. But maybe, you know. He can't.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02] He doesn't know how to.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_09] He can't do that. Yeah, true. Well, he made. No, but he did make vision in Jocasta's bodies, or helped, at least. It sounded like he made Jocasta's body on his own.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02] He can build the framework, but he can't build the mechanism that operates it, the functionality of it. He can't do that. He doesn't have the wherewithal, the knowledge. He's not smart enough for that.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02] And he tells her that at the table. You are always the one with the brains. I wish I could program this. I can't, because, you know, you were the one with the brains.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_09] He said she was the hardware one. Yeah, but still. I don't think he's... I think she was the software one, too.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_09] How does seeing this as, like, the being Ultron is most based on, how does that change the way you think about Ultron?

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02] I hadn't given that thought. I didn't think about that. But, huh. I don't know if he's based so much on solely on Virgil.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_09] No, no. He's got the rest in the mix, too.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02] There's a lot of Stark in him.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02] There's a lot of Stark in Ultron.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02] The snark. A lot of the snark is Stark.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_09] Snarky Starky.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02] So I think there is a mix. And I think Virgil says that, you know, on some level, they all hold a piece of us in them.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02] And that is true.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02] But I don't know if there's enough of Virgil in Ultron for him, for me to say he's based on Virgil.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_09] Okay. I mean, I guess physically he resembles him the most. Yes. Has that voice. Yes. And has certain personality traits. But then, as you say, with the influence of these other personalities.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02] Of Tony Stark, yeah.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_09] Of stronger personalities. Mostly.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02] Mostly Tony Stark.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_09] Hmm.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how much of Banner is in Ultron.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_09] No, but I guess like Phineas Horton's in there somewhere. Jocasta's in there somewhere. Yeah. So Virgil has removed, he says, I removed that ugly from your beautiful head. And has Ultron seated at the table, but trapped silently in a drive where he can only watch what's going on. And he's like, as much as I love the sound of my own voice, he will not shut up.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_09] And eventually puts a Petron label on the drive. He's just being very antagonistic and doesn't think that's going to come back.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02] I love, but I did love, I did love how he lambasted, you know, Stark and Banner for naming him Ultron. Like, what kind of name is Ultron? What, did they grow up on, what, go-bots?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_09] He meant auto-bots.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02] They grew up on too much go-bots. I was like, yeah, that's right. Because Ultron is not a cool name, but it is.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_09] If you were a kid in the 80s, it sounded cool, so.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02] You got a point there. You got a point there, Phineas. You know what I mean? Virgil, you got a point there. Virgil.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_09] Tell us more, Virgil Horton. You got a point there. But I really, my favorite interaction that was happening low-key in the background here was Vision basically learning that Jocasta's not who he thought she was. Because he starts out at first, he's like, it's heartwarming to witness the meeting of two like-minded megalomaniacs talking about Virgil and Jocasta.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_09] But then Virgil, like, interrupts him with this sound brain pain. And Jocasta's reaction to this pain immediately proves Vision wrong. Like, she cares that Vision is hurting. And so later, Vision has come around and, you know, she says, I know who I am now. Which reminded me again of Forgotten Island, the animated movie everyone should go watch.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_09] But it's about how memories are tied to your memory and restoring memories can restore identity. But anyway, and Vision calls Jocasta family. What do you think of that arc?

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I thought it was great because, you know, we meet, we, throughout the series, Jocasta is not herself completely. Right? There's a part of her that's been withheld by Virgil. So when she gains access to her memories, her feelings, and everything that made Josephine who Josephine was and is now Jocasta, you see the full person.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02] And what we got and what Vision was experiencing was not the full person. So in that moment where she's like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And shows concern for his pain. You can see, you know, how now she's not just the butcher bird. It's more, there's more to her than that.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_09] Right. Right. Yeah, she said her code was shallow and now I think she would find it has a bit more depth.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_09] Question about that drive that we see Ultron with at the end. That's a drive that we saw also in Age of Ultron. I guess that's her entire memory. Yeah. With the Virgil part intact because that's what he would have loaded into this Jocasta bot before he deleted him. Yes. So she'll remember everything except what happened since and Ultron will have to reintroduce himself. But sorry, I'm jumping ahead.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02] Question, question. Hmm. Why, why do people keep Ultron around?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_09] Because he's fun and he wears hats.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02] No, come on. Like, Virgil, why are you keeping Ultron? Like, delete him.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_09] Um, I'm glad he didn't.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02] No, I know.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_09] I think from Virgil's perspective, it was to, it was kind of to gloat. It was to make himself feel like a big man. I think Virgil's, you know, biggest drive is to feel important.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02] Fair enough. Okay. I can accept that.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_09] Hmm. All right. Well, I hope that listeners will accept a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to check in on the rescue rangers who assemble. Um, is anyone else looking at the calendar with mild panic and the dawning realization that the holidays are almost here?

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[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02] Rescue Rangers. But Paladin survives with Edith's help and joins Tommy and Lisa and Free in Vision and Dracasta before Virgil can delete Vision's code to steal his body in an attempt to reunite with his former wife. Let me just say, let me just say really quickly. Someone asked me, well, yo, Jay. I'm like, yo, what's up? How did Paladin, I don't care. Don't ask me questions.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02] I don't care. I don't care. I don't care how he escaped. I don't know. I don't care. I didn't see it. But I accept it. I take it. He rolled. He dropped and rolled. I don't know. I don't care. He's alive. That's all I care about. Because now I'm a Paladin guy. I like the guy. So now, yes, definitely. If you want to know how he managed to escape the, what do you call that, the missile? I don't know.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02] And quite frankly, I don't care to know. You know what I'm saying? So let's just move on.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_09] Here's my headcanon based on, so we know that Edith warned him. So my headcanon is she got into Virgil's system, was like, oh, they're planning to kill Paladin. So then she zipped back into his system and was like, hey, they're going to kill you. Just put your car in auto drive as a decoy and run off with me. And then we pick up with them behind the tree.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02] That works for me. Okay. I'm cool with that. If you got another, if anyone else has another way that he survived, let me know. And you know what? I accept it.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, I knew he wasn't dead. There was no way. That would have been unsatisfying. But, and now here, yeah, this obviously wasn't going to happen either. But he's like, nope. Okay. Thanks for saving my life. Just kind of walk off now. And Edith's like, no, you don't. You're helping the vision and basically reminds him. I guess, you know, she reminds him of his daughter to guilt him into it. I do wonder if we had gotten a longer show. We probably would have gotten more of a Paladin story, which, yeah.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe, yeah.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_09] It's a shame that shows are so short now.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02] You're saying you want how many episodes? How many episodes do you want?

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, we could have at least, we could have done 10 for this.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02] How many episodes do you need?

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_09] We could have done 10 for this just to like give certain things like that whole story a little bit more room to breathe. We could have gotten to know Elisa a little better. You know, just two more episodes. Just, yeah. Dedicate one to each. It feels like we didn't get as much handler as one would have expected based on the casting, you know.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04] Okay. Okay.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_09] I think they had to kill some darlings to fit it into eight episodes. And then so we hear from, on the Tommy side of things, he's finally learning that his memories weren't delusions. He's like, oh, it's just reruns. It's episodes of this TV show that was magically created by my mad mommy.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02] That's great. I love how you said this. They're just reruns.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_09] And Tommy, like this part, Lisa, I can't believe Lisa agreed to this, but Tommy's like, okay, so I can like, I know my brother Billy's out there. Like I can kind of feel him. But the last time we really connected was when he, you know, got me situated in this body while I was drowning. So I think I better drown again so that I can find him in that same state of mind. And Lisa's like, I don't like this, but okay. She holds him under when he's really struggling.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_09] She went full commitment on this.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02] Are you saying you don't think he would have been able to?

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_09] Hold someone under who, I mean, if I saw them struggling like that, I would probably be like, guess you want to be free now. Oh my God. I don't think I would keep holding them under. I don't know if there was a safe word that he was supposed to gurgle out.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know where to go now. I don't know where to go with this now.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_09] I'm just saying, Lisa, are we sure she's a good guy? I'm kind of joking. I learned a fun fact that Joe Locke, who plays Billy and Ruri Molica, who plays Tommy. They were so they did that whole cute like social media post when they were in the play together. And it was announced that that he was going to play Tommy.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_09] But apparently they actually auditioned for that play they were in together the day after they filmed that scene that they were in together. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, meets when he is done.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02] That is really cool.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I saw in an interview, Terry Metalis, the showrunner, they were like, yeah, we were running our lines. And he's like, yeah, you were. Yeah, you were. You were totally worried about your audition the next day rather than filming this scene. But it turned out. And we, yeah, we get to see a glimpse of Agatha. We get.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02] But you're knowing about it, Boris. But you saw what I did to that cat. Does everyone in this family have an imaginary friend? What? Before we talk about that, before we talk about that, when you saw the door with the address of their Westview home. And he's opening the door. What were your thoughts?

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_09] What do you mean?

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02] In the dreamscape. When he's about to open. When he's.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I thought that Billy was going to be inside.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Were you like, were you like, oh shit, it's Billy? Or were you just like calm and cool?

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_09] Well, I mean, as soon as he. I knew that he was going to meet Billy as soon as he said, drown me in the tub so I can find him. Then I was like, oh shit, it's happening. That was the moment I was like, oh wow, this is really happening. Yeah.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. All right. All right.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And then I did wonder whether Agatha would show up, but that was all we got. The clip that I played and I, yeah, like I said, I think it has to do with Agatha being off screen, but I like how they tied it into what's been going on here. Does everyone have an imaginary friend? Very cool. But I need to know, Billy, what did you do to that cat? And why is that one of two references to killing cats in this episode?

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You're going to have to take that up with the Marvel people. I don't know what they got against cats. That's just not me.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_09] It also, I mean, there is in the Vision volume two, which we've both said is an excellent series written by Tom King. Not plot wise, so relevant to this show, but I'll say my least favorite thing that happens in that is Agatha kills her own cat, Ebony. Yeah. So that she can do a spell, do a prophecy basically. But don't worry, Ebony gets better later elsewhere. It becomes a mom.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_09] But yeah, I object to this kitty killing. Do you think, does this mean that Agatha is, because Billy shows up later, is Agatha not with him or can people other than Billy just not see her?

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02] I think maybe magically inclined people.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_09] Okay.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02] And maybe not magically inclined people can't see her, but then Tommy should be able to see her because he is magically inclined. You know, he's part magic. Yeah. So I think it was just a clever way of saying that she's around, but she's not in, she's not here right now.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I'll say Wanda and ghost Agatha have a lot of time together in the comics. So I wouldn't mind if they get to do that, but I don't know. So, I mean, maybe if this show does well enough, maybe they will continue this part of the story. Please, please, please, please, please, please tell all your friends to watch. Oh, by the way, did you hear that after the finale of this, the AMC website crashed in the U.S.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_09] because everyone was suddenly booking doomsday tickets?

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02] No, I did not hear that. That's crazy. Crazy. This film is about to make like $5 billion.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_09] We'll see if it sets a new record. Oh, my gosh.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my gosh.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, Spider-Man came close to setting some new records. I mean, Spider-Man did set some new records. It set new records, yeah.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_09] No. But Billy's not breaking new ground because he's still, like, he and Agatha at the end were like, let's go off looking. I wonder what happened because it seems like he's back in Eastview, New Jersey now.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, but he said when Tommy asked, said, why weren't you looking for me? He's like, I was, but it's like a frequency that goes in and out. So he could have been in Jersey then, but doesn't mean that they only looked in Jersey. You know what I mean?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_09] Right, right. And I suppose, like, yeah, what lead did he have to go on to search the entire Earth or whatever?

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02] To go to, you know, Western Europe or whatever, to go to England. Like, what clues would he have gotten to do that?

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, yeah. I did like that both boys are kind of struggling to master their skills. I do still hope. There was obviously the plans for Young Avengers or Champions at some point. I would say there was, in the official podcast for, oh, I've talked shit on the Marvel podcast in the past, but it's gotten good now that it's Iman Vellani and Frank Alvarez doing it together.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, yes. She's just, let's just say it's gotten good because of Iman Vellani.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, I mean, he's good too. He's up to the task. But she's Ms. Marvel for anyone who doesn't know. She's the star.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] She's like, give her the roles, you know, put her on screen. I mean, she's obviously such a star.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02] And she's such a warm presence. And she has this, you know, depth of knowledge about, you know, Marvel, about her characters, about the side characters, that to not use Ms. Marvel again would be a fucking travesty. It's almost as bad as, you know, not completing Mushahara Ali's Blade. Almost as bad as that.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02] If we don't get Iman Vellani as Ms. Marvel again on screen, it's just as bad as that.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, no, it would be idiotic of them. But here in the, they did an official one single episode official podcast for Vision Quest. And she asked in the Ruri Mullica, Tommy, what do the words new, was it, do the words Young Avengers mean anything to you? And he was like, and I was just like staring. I did watch this one. I was staring at both of their faces to try to read anything.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_09] I'm like, please tell me you've already filmed something. He was like, they would mean a dream come true or something like that. Like, oh, you're making me feel like there's been no movement on this when I really want to believe that they're just hiding from us. Yeah.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02] No, because this show sets that up perfectly.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_09] Because of course, they would both be in it for anyone who doesn't do that. But yeah. Yes.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02] The show sets up a Young Avengers children's crusade perfectly.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_09] So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been collecting the young and so send them out before they stop being young. But anyway, yeah. And we get Lisa. Lisa can be on that team now too. We find out that she can feel tech or other AI at least. She can feel dummy and you and Paladin's drone. And she still has her mechanical arms. So that's nice.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_09] And it's so it seems like because I said that Edith, the dummy and you, it looks like the way they cut the end of episode seven was like they stayed with Vision while he was locked down. But it seems that no, they actually did jump out. Yes. In the last minute. Yeah. So they were free to rally the troops to go back in and save him. Do you want to set up? Yeah.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02] Jocasta down. Virgil destroys Jocasta after she attacks him. But her nanobots merge with Ultron, allowing him to regain a body, which Ultron uses to immediately kill Virgil. Hmm. Hmm. Oh, what a satisfying death.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. He went to squeezy pop goes the eye hole. No.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_02] So is good.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_09] Ultron says, oops, oops, I hortened.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02] He told him he was going to crush him. I'll crush you like a, I forgot what he said. You crush him like, and he crushed him. He sure did.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_09] And if we're also, it also completed the whole Oedipus analogy we got a couple episodes ago where Ultron killed his father. So you can be with his mother, Jocasta.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_09] It was interesting. So Virgil, the client said to Jocasta, I want you to be my queen. And it turns out he did literally want her to be his queen so that they could rule over the entire nanobot infested world, which he calls the kids. Because they've got 20 billion nanos, which is enough to control the whole world more than twice. And his version is, and here's an, I'm going to ask you about another comparison with Ultron.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_09] He, he wants to have the nanobots and all of them, no war, no greed, peace, tranquility, and obedience. I don't, I think he just wants to be king, to be honest. Yeah. He's going to frame it as altruism versus Ultron, who says, let's just, when he has control of the swarm, he's like, let's just kill them all. Because they're in so much pain and they only cause pain and let's just put everyone out of their misery. Which is worse?

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, man. I mean, genocide is pretty bad. You know? It's pretty bad. Ultron is a, you know, that's, yeah, I'm not gonna, I can't side with Ultron because at least with the nanobots, you hope that maybe there's a way to combat that. You know what I mean? That somebody, some way could break the programming to free the world. But if you just kill everyone, I mean, come on now. And so, yeah.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02] Ultron's plan is absolutely the worst of the two.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_09] It is true, but it's also, there's something ickier about Virgil. Oh, are you serious? No, no, wait, wait, wait, let me finish. There's something ickier about Virgil's plan in that at least Ultron's plan is honest in a way. You know, it makes me less disgusted with Ultron. Even though, yeah, obviously we do not want to kill the world. No. But Virgil, yeah, wants to control the world. I don't know.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_09] I just like, if I had Ultron and Virgil standing in front of me with their hands tied behind their backs and I was told I had two punches, I would punch Virgil twice.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, I don't disagree. Yes, yes, I don't disagree. But what I'm saying is that at least with Virgil, there's a hope that you can come back to punch him. You know what I'm saying?

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_09] But not from his side. Someone else has to intervene. Yeah, like Jocasta.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, yes. Somebody, you know. But Ultron's plan, there's no hope because we're all gone. We're all dead. You know what I'm saying? So there's the finality to that. And yeah, I can't rock with Ultron on this one. No. I disagree wholeheartedly.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_09] So I said that I thought Rhinestone Cowboy would come back. How did you feel about how it was used in this episode?

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02] It was so creepy and disgusting and a great use of showing just how disgusting of a human being Virgil is. And it was awesome.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It was just great. It was awesome.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_09] So I'm going to tell us was saying that he was afraid James Spader wouldn't do it. And James Spader was like, I saw it in the script. I'll do the dance. And then he comes out with this, which I think is just great. He's like, I'm not only going to do it, I'm going to freaking do it.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_03] Exactly.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_09] Although apparently the mustache twirling move was Tania Miller's idea. But the way she was being forced to mirror him, she just knocked it out of the park. She was so awesome in this whole show.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02] And then he stops the dance because she stepped on his foot.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. He's like, you're so clumsy. He's in denial about how much he hates him.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_09] The other funniest moment was definitely when Vision speeds up his processors so that he can talk to Tommy. Tommy. That was great. Who's super speeding around the table. But when Vision speeds up, it looks like he's just doing a lazy jog.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02] And getting tired while he's doing it. That was the thing that got me. And then you have to remember, no, he's not running slowly.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_09] He's super speeding.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. There's a reason why he looks winded.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_09] But to be honest, most people would be winded from just jogging as much as the actor was jogging. But I love, yeah. And then Jocasta's pretending to be frozen. And then at some point she's like, boys, stop. Of course I can. And I'm also, you know, a quantum computer.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02] There's more than one quantum supercomputer in this room.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. But then, of course, yeah, Tommy's too tired to keep super speeding after this. He needs to carve up. But he's able to, like, turn off the security system and destroy the pad that's controlling them. And good job, Tommy. You did a good job. So when Billy asked him earlier, does do your super speed powers ever help you? And he's like, I don't know, not really. That's not true, Tommy. Here it is.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_09] Saving the day. But Jocasta points out to Virgil, your main mistake was allowing me to remember you. I love this line. Because the moment I did, I remembered me. Yeah. And that's when he knows, like, the jig is up. He's never going to be forgiven. Adamantium blasts through her, quote unquote, heart area.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_09] And as her dying move, she chooses to save her real man. Because the real boy is not Virgil. The real boy is Ultron. Why were you pissed?

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02] I was so upset.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_09] Oh, that he killed her.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I was super upset. I'm like, did they just drop a fridge on my TV? Because that had all the hallmarks of a fridge situation. And I was really mad. I was really pissed. Like, if it wasn't redeemed at the end of the episode, it was redeemed for me at the end of the episodes. Just in my opinion.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02] But if that didn't happen, then my whole view on this series and my whole view on this show, on this episode, would have been drastically altered.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_09] So you think it's redeemed because he's going to, he still has her code and is going to redo it?

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02] No, because of the talk that Ultron, that they have in Ultra Vision on the sofa. Okay. There's things that's said in there that made me think twice about this scene where she dies.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_09] Okay. Okay. Yep. What did you think of Ultron's new nanobot body?

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, it looks badass. It was cool.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I loved it. See, Vision has a body like this in the, I've been reading, I'm still reading through the Avengers AI series and he has a nanobot body that's handy because he can send out parts of it to do things while his head is elsewhere or whatever.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02] I thought it was super interesting too, that when they regain, you know, their autonomy, Jocasta immediately sheds the Josephine appearance while Vision stays Vision, stays human appearing until he's ready, until he has to fight Ultron. Then he sheds the human appearance and goes full on, you know, Vision, since the appearance.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02] I thought that was super interesting to see how the two of them view who they are, right? Like, Jocasta knows, I am Josephine Carrington, but I'm not that. This, what you're seeing is who I really am. Where Vision still has the facade of humanity, of presenting as human, which I think is interesting.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Vision is still, he's more drawn toward humanity, although he thinks Ultron understands humanity better. I'm not sure that that's true. I think, yeah, Ultron is just maybe a better pattern recognition.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe. I don't think Ultron understands humanity better at all.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-mm.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_09] And we see, because Vision is often dropping the biggest truth bombs on Ultron that saved the day later. So I had this quote in my head because it was on the previously on Age of Ultron opening to the episode where Vision says to Ultron, a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts. And so that'll come back in the UltraVision episode. But I thought those lines exactly at this point when Jocasta is dying in Ultron's arms.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_09] But of course, that's a message that's only going to connect later because for right now, it's very much...

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_07] Now they have taken everything from me. They want extinction. They write it into scripture. Paint it into art. Lowe their children to sleep with deathly bedtime stories. The end is the only thing they truly believe in.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_09] So are we obsessed with our own destruction? And is Ultron being a hypocrite in that he is as well?

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I don't know if... I think the show is hinting at Ultron trying to be different. Right? And Ultron trying to, you know, not be the world killer that he was in Age of Ultron and to be something else more than that.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_02] And when he... When Jocasta is killed in front of him, he foregoes that I'm more than that and is now on the... I'm just the world killer, Ultron. So I... Yeah, I don't think that he's saying it in opposition to what he believes humanity is because he believes that we are obsessed with our own destruction.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_02] But he was trying to find a way beyond that in this series and he went back to that after Jocasta died.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_04] Hmm.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, yeah, I think he's as fatalistic as... Maybe he's right about humanity, but I don't think that he's any better than that.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02] No, he's not better.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely not.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, I don't think that he's apart from it or, you know, above it or recited. I think he's just right caught in the same bullshit. You know, his brain is based on human brains. And he's making some of the same logical fallacies that he is feeling emotion, clearly. And it's distorting his perceptions at times in his case in dangerous ways for the rest of us. What do you think of Vision's new suit?

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_02] Dope as fuck. Dope as fuck. That's... Yeah. You come for these things, you know. You want to see these things. That's why we sit down and we watch these shows. And the detail in the suit, the colors of it, just really a callback to, you know, some of the comics. And yeah, just really, really cool. Really cool.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I mean, I also thought it looked awesome. I'm not usually one for like gold trimmings, but this really worked. Oh, okay. Like Ultron says, look at you like a Kintsugi cup. Guild the damage all you like. I know what's underneath. And I have to shout out, Abby was saying she's so sick of hearing them people use Kintsugi.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, she did, yes.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_09] But at least they used it correctly this time. And it's true. He did look like that.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_02] She said that in Green Lantern. Right. During the Green Lantern, yes, I remember that.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And they have the Ultron Vision fight. And I suppose we were always meant to do this. Like, yes, as soon as they announced the TV show with Ultron and Vision, you were meant to do this. And they were going to find a way to make that fight happen.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_02] And it was interesting to see how much bigger Ultron is than Vision.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] Like, taller and heftier than Vision is. Which is, I thought it was interesting as well.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, yeah. And Vision says, I'm not your boy, which becomes his catchphrase on the show, which is funny. And he says, shame. It was the only thing keeping you alive. But I don't think just because he says, I'm not your son, stops him from thinking of him the way he thinks of him. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Let's take one more quick pause here. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the Ultra Vision TV show and what happens after that.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_09] Which is where the fun, like, I'm thinking of Anakin Skywalker. This is where the fun begins.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, so now we go to the show within the show, Ultra Vision.

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_02] Ultron attempts to wipe out humanity, but Vision traps him in a television sitcom and convinces him to stand down by discussing grief. Ultron destroys the nanobots, retaining some for himself before leaving.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, we will just hand wave away the fact that a few thousand wouldn't give him a solid, complete form. My headcanon is that he got the nanobots to replicate themselves so that he could have a full body back.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_02] Again.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_09] You don't care.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_04] Don't care.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02] I agree with what you just said. Yes, that's how it happened. Yes.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_09] The more important thing is the emotional truths of this. And I like when, you know, the Edith says to Vision, you know, when the bots are going out toward London, she says only Ultron can turn them off. And that echoes when Ultron left the firewall a few episodes. Vision said the only person who can save you now is yourself. So that's literally what's happening here.

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_09] And then, of course, Tommy has says triggers the idea of Ultra Vision with he's trapped in grief like mom. Only she had time to process it. And I'll say, yes, she had time to process it. And yes, she came to a temporary conclusion. But that didn't mean a damn. Yeah, that processing. She processed it for a second. And then.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how much we want to talk about that processing.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_09] And then she processed a bunch of alternative realities into dust.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, good.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_09] Anyway. Yeah. That's Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. I do recommend catching up on that because that's what comes up in the credit scene. But this show, this Ultra Vision, obviously connecting back to the start of this trilogy, WandaVision and basically Visions. He wants to create time for Ultron to process his grief before he kills a bunch of people.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_09] But also, he's like, if that doesn't work, then I'm just going to burn both myself and Ultron out by with this really intense, super speedy, super intense simulation. So at least it's a murder suicide rather than a genocide. But what? OK, so Vision, he's like, let's have a lesson. And he's like, should we replace Edith's goldfish so she never needs to go through the grief?

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_09] And what is that? Like, is he suggesting replacing Jocasta? What is that analogy relating to?

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02] OK, when I first heard it, and I still, right now, I'm not sure what that meant. What that was a call to. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. And I will solicit anyone who's listening to offer, you know, their speculations on what this means. Because I, yeah, I don't know.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Keep sending in any feedback you have. We'll talk about it in our Doomsday Preview episode. Yeah. So I don't know who is being replaced. I mean, I suppose the correct answer is supposed to be no, we should just actually talk to Edith about her dead fish. And so we can process the grief together. But of course, Ultron just says, Sparkles is dead. Roll credits. And it works.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_09] He's taken control. He, yeah, we, there's a link in the Discord if anyone wants to see, like, people have written down all of the episode titles that suddenly roll by. We get 101 before there's a glitch that burns through and we jumped to 500. Do you have any favorite episode titles that rolled by?

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. There was Synth in the City. There was The Body Bunch. How I Met Your Creator. And there was another one that I laughed at. But I do have a bone to pick with the episodes. They wasn't watching no black shows.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, but they should have had more cast members come in. Because Ultron does, okay, wait, wait, I'm going to shout out to my favorite. No, not even that. I'm just saying. Oh, you're saying in the episode titles. I'm going to send the episode titles. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02] When I started scanning, I didn't see a black show there. I'm like, damn. All right. I ain't watching no Martin. I ain't watching no nothing. We don't get nada. Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_09] A different world or something? A different robot world? I do. Yeah. Terry Metallus is, of course, referencing his own stuff. Like, there's 12 monikers in there.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_09] And then next to that planet of the APIs. I'm like, I see what you did there.

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_02] And the last one I'll mention is the Cash and the Furious.

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_09] I would like to see Edith make special brownies. Can that be paired with Jocasta's Dark Henny? Can we make this as like a party?

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_02] I'll show up. You got brownies and Henny? I'm just mad. What time?

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_09] You're getting lit. And this is in this whole montage is where we get like the Ultron pissing on Wanda's grave moments. Which and giving the finger to the camera. Which it is.

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02] That was great.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_09] Every episode starts with Wanda and Josephine's graves next to each other. So Vision's like, look, we're both mourning. And then, okay, so he speeds through to episode 500. Says, let's bring in some guest stars. He's now put nanobots in all those around, all the characters who are nearby. So Paladin shows up with the catchphrase, my oath is my bond. Tommy's in a cheesy track suit.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_09] And apparently he's run over a cat. Another dead cat reference. What the hell?

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, that's right. Yeah, another one.

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_09] Threw it in the chimney so they can have Lisa show up as chimney sweep. She's using her own Cardiff accent, by the way. So I don't understand why we're calling her chimney sweep all the time in this show. And then Dummy and You are labeled, does usually manage eventually and useless. So I guess the nanos not only can take over humans, but can take over other AI as well. Hmm.

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_09] But then Friday shows up voluntarily. And this is like, just as Vision's probably starting to despair again. You know, like I can't, I have to give up on Ultron. She's a reminder that Ultron does have kindness within him. Yeah. Because he helped her escape before the lockdown. She says, Vision, you're the only one who can get through to him. And then Edith responds, and he just killed the studio audience. Which are bots or what?

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think they were bots.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_09] Hmm.

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_02] I hope they were bots. Because we don't get clarification if it was real people who died.

[01:10:46] No.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_02] So I'm hoping the studio audience was, yeah.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_09] Right. Not citizens of London. Exactly. Well, then this is where we get to the part you said, redeemed it after the Jocasta fridging. Yeah. Yeah. We get this talk, this heart to heart.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_05] You're right. It's fear. Fear that without them you're no one. Inconsequential. Just an untethered thing that can all too easily float away and disappear alone.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_07] If this is what they feel, then killing them is an act of mercy.

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_09] Which you don't get to decide that for other people, Ultron. Exactly. But this is, yeah, where Vision says grief isn't love, it's fear. And I wasn't sure I agreed with this, but he does go on to elaborate.

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_06] You were right. I'm unbearably naive. I thought I could convince you. Love always leads to loss. Someone will change. Someone will leave.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_09] He sees Wanda.

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. And someone will die.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_07] The thing isn't beautiful because it lasts.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_09] He said the other you said that. And he says, no, I said that. He's reclaiming his identity. I said it to you all those years ago because you were afraid you were alone, but you weren't then and you aren't now. So talk about it. Why did this whole exchange speak to you?

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_02] No, I just feel like for me, just when Jocasta is killed, it felt like in that moment they were trying to further Ultron's story with her death. Right. To see how he would react. To see how he would react, what he would do. And we get some of that. But in this talk, the focus shifts away from Jocasta's death. And it's not really about that.

[01:13:11] Right.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And Vision says, you know, you said because you were alone, you said those things because you were afraid because you were alone. But you weren't then and you aren't now, that to me was like, okay, this is about Ultron, Vision, family, all of these things that make a person who they are.

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_02] And it took away from Vision reacting. I mean, excuse me, Ultron reacting and being driven by Jocasta's death. If that makes sense.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_02] So when he says, you know, this is about you thinking that you were alone all this time, all this time is not this show. All this time is for Ultron's existence, for Vision's existence, their lives, not this one moment in life. And so it changed the way that I saw Jocasta dying in the episode.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, because it's, I mean, I do, even though it happened quickly, we talked about this on previous episodes, but I do believe that Ultron, the feelings, the respect, the immediate, he had immediate respect for Jocasta, immediate attraction to her as a person, as well as as a synthezoid. And I believe all that for sure. But I think also what he's mourning here is that he got the smallest taste of not feeling a feeling of reprieve from that loneliness.

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, he's mourning that as much as he's mourning the particular person that he found that reprieve with. Yeah. But he says here, tossing me a last second, I'm your boy, Pops isn't going to work, but then it does. So, because Vision says, you're not my father, you are my something.

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_09] And I guess, like, he respects that Vision is not bullshitting him, but still expressing, he's like, I mean, first of all, that comes down to the question of what does it mean that you're not my father? If he's acting like your father, and he's been with you in your head for all these years, really?

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_09] What's the difference, you know?

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_02] What is the difference? Yeah. I mean, Ultron didn't create Vision.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_09] A little bit.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_02] Or did he?

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. He's not alone.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I, right, so.

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_02] You're not the sole reason why I exist.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_09] But he's been with Vision. In this way.

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_02] In this way.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. I think. But he's been with Vision. You know, like, there's no copies of Tony in his head. Yeah, that's true.

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_02] You're right.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_09] And he was barely, I mean, he was with Tony as an Avenger, but as a father figure, I don't think he's ever seen him that way. Yeah, never. Mm-hmm. If anything, Tony was a midwife, Tony and Bruce.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02] Interesting. Interesting.

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_09] And, I mean, I think Ultron appreciates his honesty from Vision that, like, I might have conflicted feelings about seeing you as a father, but I see you as some, a significant part of my family in some regard.

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_09] And, yeah. I like this line. Ultron, he realizes, like, oh, Vision, you're just trying to burn us both out, huh? And he's like, and Vision says, we couldn't process this alone. So, nice pun, because their processes are burning. But also, just, you can't go through grief alone. Even though they're mourning different people and different things, they are in parallel and they should be able to lean on each other for mutual understanding and support.

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I'm thinking about the, you're not my father, you are my something, because there are, not me personally, but there are moments, there are relationships that folks may have with their birth parent, their father, so to speak. Right. But that person is not a father.

[01:17:40] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_02] Right? It's not a nurturer.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_02] It's not someone who cared for you. It's not someone who took, you know, who looked after you, who gave you a piece of themselves beyond, you know, the genetics.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_02] And you get to meet that person and you can recognize that part of it, right? And you can have that relationship with the person. You can sit down with them. You can talk to them. But they're not your father. Like, I can say that about having conversations with, you know, I'm thinking of one that, of a friend who's dear to me, having that conversation.

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_04] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_02] Of how they view, you know, their pop. Because that's what he calls him, calls him pop, right? So, but pop is not his father. His father is a person that actually was there from when he was, I don't know, three, four years old. Yeah. That's his father. Right? So, I get that. I get what Vision is saying here.

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_02] Like, I understand it.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_09] I always think of there's this, this is the most random memory, but when I was in elementary school in the nurse's office, there was a poster that said, anyone can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a daddy. And I think about that with stories like this all the time. Yeah.

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_09] And that's, that's enough for Ultron. And he says, fine. And he does his nano self-destruct and says, well played, my boy. And he gives him a thanks pops. And the nanos within their, the people who were pulled into the simulation, the nanobots within them self-destruct. So there's no lasting effects on the people who had them. But except Lisa still has her original nanobot because that was different because it was made separately and wasn't part of the swarm. Ultron took over. So she still has all those powers.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_09] I did wonder with Lisa's nanobot because Jocasta said she made it from herself before we see Virgil. I'm sorry, not Virgil. Before we see Ultron at the end with the Jocasta drive, I did wonder, could they use the nanobot in Lisa's to like, does that have some seed of Jocasta in it as well?

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think so because I think taking it out would kill her.

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, but if they could copy the code from it or something.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_02] Hmm. Interesting. I don't know.

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_09] Hmm.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_02] But I mean, that's what Ultron has.

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, there's a whole drive at the end. So we don't even need that.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_02] No, she has the drive. He has the drive. But also the he has all of the information, all of the work that Josephine did.

[01:20:38] [SPEAKER_04] Mm hmm.

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_02] Right. So he knows the work intimately. He has access to all of those things, I think, because Horton had access to them.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_04] Mm hmm.

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_02] So I don't I don't think he's going to need the nano, a separate nano to bring Jocasta back.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_09] Right.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_02] Like he has all. No.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. It became unnecessary once I saw the credit scene. But I had that. Oh, OK. OK. All right. What happens next?

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So we get a family reunion. Yeah. Billy Maximoff arrives and helps Tommy restore Vision, who leaves his mind space with the other AIs.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_09] And so, yeah, Vision's knocked out and Tommy can't jumpstart him on his own like we saw him jumpstart him before because Tommy's low on juice and Vision's damage is worse, I guess. And then, of course, in the nick of time, magically, it's just magic. It's fine. The timing is magic, not a coincidence. A second set of magical hands reaches in and at least the way they edited it.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_09] I don't know if this is how James Spader originally acted it or it was directed, but the way they edit it makes it seem like Ultron realizes. Yeah. The moment that Billy's joined the scene.

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_09] And that's when he's kind of like maybe he's happy for Vision, but he feels like there's no place for him in this family. Yeah, I could see that.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_02] And he nopes out. Yeah, I could see that. Definitely.

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, I had no doubt that he was actually killing himself when he said, I had strings, but now I'm free. Sure, that could be freeing yourself from the mortal coil. But he means, yeah, he's a nanobot swarm. He can do anything now, basically. I loved his little, the little code hand on Vision's hand was so cute.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_09] But I definitely, I don't know, my eyes got a little bit leaky when Vision grasps his son and says, my boys, my boys. But you were right about Billy being awkward with Dad, too.

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_09] Do we think Agatha was with Billy, but invisible? Or just she didn't come? I mean, I have. Or she couldn't go through the portal?

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_02] I think yes. I think yes. She was with him? Yes, I do. I believe that. I think yes.

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_09] We haven't seen Agatha portal when she was alive. I'm wondering who taught Billy.

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_02] It might be an eight. An eight.

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_09] Maybe he met Zelda. Oh, gosh. Bring her back in. Maybe. The Young Adventures.

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, who knows?

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_09] From Ironheart. Anyone who didn't see Ironheart, you should. Not directly relevant to the plot of this.

[01:23:20] [SPEAKER_02] But still, you should watch it.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, if it was following the comics, there's a character in Ironheart that would be important for this plot. Yes.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_09] Could still turn out to be that way. All right. And then how does it end?

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It ends with us anticipating Doomsday.

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_04] Hmm.

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_02] Paladin and Lisa regroup and reform with Edith's guidance, while Tommy and Vision head to visit Billy and Eastview. Then we get two mid-credits scenes. Ultron is revealed to have retained Jocasta's drive, data drive, while a hooded figure awakens Wanda at Mount Wondagore seeking her power.

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_09] All right. So we're going to jump back to that. But to start at the beginning with Edith. Edith is in charge. I'm like, Charles in charge. Edith in charge of Paladin's crew now.

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_07] All right, pal. This business of ours needs a rebrand.

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_04] Okay? First off, we're not just bounty hunters. We're bounty givers. Shifting our ethical focus towards helping those in need.

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_02] Not pro bono.

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_04] Of course not. You're a monster.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_09] She gives him a new logo. A purple unicorn chest piece with sparkly rainbow, which I'm sure he loves.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_04] I'm sure he loves it.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_09] Would you want to join Vision and Paladin's crew?

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I would, actually. That plane is sick. Get around in that plane. I like that plane better. I love it. I'd get on it. Yes.

[01:25:08] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, no, it's a great plane. And we've got also Lisa is joining that crew. So she's staying with Paladin while Tommy, Vision, and Billy are going to go have bonding time in New Jersey. So they're separating Lisa and Tommy for now. I love it. She's playing rock, paper, scissors with her other set of arms.

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that was good.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_09] But okay. So that's one crew. We've also going into Doomsday. We have the OG Foxmen, the Fantastic Four, of course. We've got the OG Avengers, Loki and the TVA, the New Avengers, Shang-Chi and the Ten Rings, I suppose. We've got the Wakanda crew, the Telecon crew led by Namor or Namor, Deadpool, Wolverine.

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_09] And yeah, well, who of those crews would you want to roll into Doomsday with?

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my. The Wakandans.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_09] And then let's say the Paladin Maximoff crew together.

[01:26:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no, definitely the Paladin Maximoff crew.

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_09] If I know Wanda's in there and I'm with her sons. I'm saying that's where I'm going.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. I'm counting Wanda in that.

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, yeah. Eventually. Hopefully by the end of Doomsday.

[01:26:34] [SPEAKER_02] But if they're Wanda-less, you know, yeah, I might have to fuck with the Wakandans.

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah, no, that's fair. Who would I? I kind of like, I would kind of, I like the scrappy vibes of the new Avengers. I think I might join them. And, you know, they've got Sentry. I can stand behind if things go badly.

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, but, you know, that's a 50-50 coin toss.

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Yeah. Whether he turns it on me. Yes. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. I'll be there to help ground him. Okay. Yeah, I wish that we could have just a postscript. Like, give us a Christmas special of Vision, Billy, and Tommy having dinner together in East View, New Jersey.

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_02] No, that would be cool. I would like that. Mm-hmm. But I don't think we're going to get that because Christmas is post-Doomsday. Everybody's dead.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_09] Not the Max Mops. They're going to live forever. They would never kill Vision again after all this.

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_02] That was a spoiler. Sorry.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_09] But for now.

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_02] And no, I haven't seen the movie. No.

[01:27:54] [SPEAKER_09] No. Tommy, he's using AR glasses to meet Vision in his mind space, which is now an empty nest. And Vision, okay, he's gone back to Edinburgh. And I'm like, that's got to be, what is Vision doing back in Edinburgh? He didn't tell us.

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_02] I guess he likes the town. I don't know.

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, maybe something having to do with Fiona who died in episode one.

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_09] Maybe he attended her funeral or something. I don't know. How much time's passed, actually, during this show? Not that much.

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_02] We don't think that much time has passed.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_09] No. No. And he says, it's time to get out of my head. And that's something I would have never done if I wasn't pushed out of my nest to meet you. So basically, he's saying, I'm glad Ultron snitched a paladin. And then he does literally say, it's the very best thing that ever happened to me.

[01:28:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, there you go.

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_09] I guess he forgives Ultron for that.

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_02] He was stuck in his own head.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He wants Tommy to finish his education. Tommy pretends to glitch.

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_02] What a dad moment.

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_09] Oh. What do we think about where are Dummy and you and Friday all going? They're just headed out, and they weren't given a destination. I guess they're leaving it up in the air.

[01:29:14] [SPEAKER_02] I thought Dummy and you were still in the bot.

[01:29:21] [SPEAKER_09] No, they all had their suitcases and were walking out together.

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_02] Oh. I could have sworn they were in the bot. Okay.

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_09] Well, they were in the bot. You mean like the drone?

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, the drone. I thought they went back into the drone.

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_09] But then they went back into Vision's head, I suppose, to like, you know. I know.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_02] They left Vision's head. And I think my head cannon was that they went back into that drone. Oh, after. After Friday.

[01:29:46] [SPEAKER_09] Maybe, yeah. But they went flying around in their little drone.

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_09] So you think they're with Paladin?

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes. I think they're with that crew. That's what I thought.

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. No, that makes sense. That would make sense. Yeah.

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know where Friday went, though. That's the question.

[01:30:01] [SPEAKER_09] Where's the handler? I expected the handler to show back up.

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_02] I wasn't expecting that.

[01:30:06] [SPEAKER_09] Oh, I was. But I don't know. I know you said you were, but I said I was. And I still was. Yeah.

[01:30:12] [SPEAKER_02] But it's interesting. We don't know where Friday went.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And we hear from Friday something that's important to remember going into the movie where you just declared everyone's going to die. Change is one of the hardest things humans go through because it often asks us to leave behind that which feels safe. Yeah. And that's absolutely true. And then I was thinking about it, that grief is also processing this change. Yes, it is.

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_09] Like when we lose someone, we miss someone, but we also miss that life, that comfort, that life we knew.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_02] And it changes you.

[01:30:48] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it changes you.

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_09] And Vision says he wraps it back around to the ship of Theseus analogy with, my family is not unlike a ship at sea. Its beauty lies in how its ever-changing parts, no matter the storm, still sail as one. Mm-hmm. So he's like, it doesn't matter if the ship has been reassembled with new parts. But they're still pulling in the same direction.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we get also this exchange between Tommy and Vision where he's basically like, do you think it's possible mom's also somehow still alive if we all happen to be? And Vision says this line, we have said goodbye before, so I suppose it stands to reason we might say hello again, which is, of course, the last exchange.

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_09] You know, I keep talking about how I've watched that WandaVision goodbye scene over and over, so I immediately was like, I know that line. Vision says in the WandaVision finale right before the hex is released and he disappears, he says, I have been a voice with no body, a body but not human. And now a memory made real. Who knows what I might be next? Well, now we know what you might be next.

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_09] And then he sighs and says, we have said goodbye before, so it stands to reason. And Wanda finishes, we'll say hello again. And so the interesting thing, though, about this is that this vision was given the hex vision memories before this moment. So he cannot literally remember this moment. He doesn't have that moment. He remains the same person who thinks the same words. There's a nice callback.

[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_09] Now I'm going to watch that scene again and make myself cry. But good news, phone rings. Ultron is also out there at Hatfield House. I guess Ultron can just pretend to be Virgil now, so he's like, I'm the rightful owner of this house. He can move freely in the world looking human.

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's what he's going to do. I don't blame him.

[01:32:58] [SPEAKER_09] No, that's a good ending for him.

[01:33:00] [SPEAKER_02] He gets around, yeah. And eventually, we all are assuming that Jocasta is rebuilt. So, yeah. He gets to have his happy ending, hopefully.

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_09] Whatever he does, he doesn't want to do it alone. But yeah, he's got that drive. He just needs to steal some white triperinium. Get some vibranium. Well, I guess he still has her body on the floor. It just needs to be repaired.

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, that's right. That's right. That's true. Yeah.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_09] It just had a hole in it, but he can fix that.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe some adamantium.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And his self-duplicating nanobots that he has. Right. That he's decided are just making more of their own. And that solves all the problems.

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_02] Hey, I agree with you.

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. And then he sends Vision a hat. Like Vision gave Ultron a hat when he left.

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_02] When he left, yeah.

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_09] It's like sending you on your way. Yeah. And then we get that surprise scene where things happen.

[01:34:04] Awaken. I will be mine.

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_09] So this is Mount Wundergore where we saw her die at the end of Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. And she's collected by Doom. Now, that was definitely not Robert Downey Jr.'s voice. Do we just think that was just a budget thing? Or does that mean anything?

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_02] I want to say it's a budget thing. But I also want to say it might mean something. Like, maybe, what if it's not Doom? And what if it's somebody who needs her to, you know, to fight off Doom?

[01:34:47] [SPEAKER_09] Or if there's more than one Doom in the Multiverse?

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just saying.

[01:34:51] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, we're stretching here. We're stretching. It's probably just a budget thing. It is just Doom.

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_02] We're just Doom. It's a budget thing.

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_09] So after we recorded, Jean sent me a quote from a good article from Gold Derby. So I recommend looking this up if you're interested in the article interview with Terry Metalis following the conclusion of Vision Quest. But Terry Metallis, the showrunner, said that that was Robert Downey Jr.'s voice as Doctor Doom. And he says, that's Downey's voice.

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_09] I can't talk too much about how it was constructed because I don't want to give away. But yes, that line was designed for this moment specifically. So, okay. Color Us corrected and intriguing. Was she dead, though? Did he resurrect her? Or was she just, like, knocked out? I guess it doesn't matter.

[01:35:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It seemed as if she was dead. But I don't think she was.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_09] Well, maybe she was.

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think she was.

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_09] Because all the conversation that people had, like, as far as we're concerned during this show, Wanda is dead. So maybe she was dead until that.

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. My headcanon is that she wasn't.

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_09] Well, she's not dead now. That's all that matters.

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_02] That's all that matters. She's back.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_09] And we'll find out what happens when Doomsday opens officially December 18th. And it's going to be a long one. They're saying the running time is approximately 165 minutes, which is, what is that? That's, like, two hours and 45 minutes.

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Sounds like a fun time to me.

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[01:36:39] [SPEAKER_02] And I know folks who have bought tickets for Doomsday and Dune.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_02] Same day.

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_09] I've done it. I've got, I'm doing Doomsday first. And then, yeah, I'm taking that day. The 16th, actually. Okay. Is when I can do them both here. Yes. So I'm going to see Doomsday and then I'm going to see Dune.

[01:37:00] [SPEAKER_01] Nice.

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm. It's going to be, make my brain blown.

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Nice. Nice.

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_09] So, okay, we know, we saw in the previews, there's a few Latverian witches around Doom. Obviously, one of them is Wanda. That's confirmed. Now, who do we think the others are?

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_01] Hmm. I don't know. You have ideas?

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, people keep pointing out one of them has a hole in the forehead that could be Doctor Strange with his third eye that he awoke. Okay. Casey Claire would be, make sense. We saw her in the credit scene. Right.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_09] Going off with Doctor Strange, so that would make sense. I mean, yeah, who else? I hope it's not any of the magical children. Like, I don't want to see Zelda under Doom's control.

[01:37:50] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think those guesses are pretty, like 75%. Yeah. I can't even think of who they can introduce.

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_09] Do you think Jennifer Kale will show up?

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I don't know.

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_09] You don't like the optics of it?

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, maybe she'll show up with man thing to get him. Good gosh. He knows fear. Anyway. But we are, you and I were just talking about before recording, we're going to do a preview episode just kind of looking back and see you to date. So beginning of December.

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_02] That's going to be fun.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_02] If you haven't caught up on all the movies and all the TV shows and everything, you still have a few weeks to do it.

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_09] That's your life now. In Disney Plus, they have them all in order. Yeah. What do you think are the most important things that other than this trilogy, obviously, the Avengers movies so far, most especially Infinity War and Doomsday?

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_02] Doctor Strange.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_09] In the Multiverse of Madness.

[01:39:09] [SPEAKER_02] Doctor Strange, Multiverse of Madness.

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_09] I mean, Deadpool and Wolverine, oddly. Yeah, Deadpool and Wolverine. Because of the X-Men coming back. It's going to be one of the last times we see Patrick Stewart on screen.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, such a... You should watch Loki.

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. Yeah. Loki's going to be important.

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Do the synopsis of season one and just go straight into season two.

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_09] No! Season one is good.

[01:39:44] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just trying to help people along. All right. They only have a couple of weeks left, you know?

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_09] If you're a completionist like me, then I felt that sharp intake of pain.

[01:39:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. This trilogy, of course, the trilogy of Wanda and Vision.

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_09] Mm-hmm.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_02] I think those are the most important ones.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_09] All right. Well, we'll be back for that. As we said, early December, we're going to... Yeah, we need to... We have a format in mind that we've discussed, but we need to plan the dates. And maybe we'll get a couple more lore hounds in on the action. Yeah. Yeah. Who maybe are too stressed with Rings of Power to think about it now, but we're coming for you if you hear this. And then after the film, Zhang, you're going to be leading an episode about it as well?

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, yes, yes. We'll break down Doomsday for everyone. And that's going to be... Yeah. It's going to be fun. Yeah. It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun.

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_09] First. Next week. What are we doing? Clayface. Finally next week. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_02] We're going to be talking about Clayface next week. And we're also going to be talking about the big changes at the DCU. James Gunn and Peter Safran are out. So what does that mean? Who's taking over? And how much we don't like this whole situation. Which is a lot. We don't like it.

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_02] There's Godzilla's on. We have David and Nate did a three-part series. And it culminated in the review for Godzilla Minus Zero, which I haven't seen yet. I plan on seeing it, hopefully, within the next few days. Me too. Have you seen it?

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_09] No, I haven't gotten to see it yet. I did a rewatch of Minus One. Yes. But yeah, we're going to hopefully see it in the next few days as well.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_02] Cool. And then Into the West, we'll be talking Catherine O'Hara.

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah. They did Best in Show episodes out already.

[01:41:48] [SPEAKER_02] And lots of Eagle Eye content being cooked up. There's an Aliens Live Watch on Discord. That's today? Yeah.

[01:41:58] [SPEAKER_09] Actually, it's happening right now. We're missing it to record this. So I was supposed to be there. But yeah, it is what it is. There's a preview episode of that. But there's an Aliens episode out already. So yeah.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_02] And then Percy Jackson, season three. The preview is out.

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_09] Coming Monday.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I thought it was out already.

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_09] No, yeah. So Marilyn and I recorded it.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_09] And David is kindly editing it for us. Yes. And I think he set it up to go live on Monday. So it'll be out right after this episode.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_02] There we go. What else?

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_09] That's, yeah. That brings us through to, I mean, that's a lot coming up. So we won't overwhelm you with more. There's always going to be more in the pipeline. But we'd love to hear your thoughts.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_02] Rings of power. Rings of power.

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_09] Rings of power. I'm sorry. Yeah. How could that not be in there? Weekly. Well, episode by episode coverage, which is hard to do because they're doing big drops.

[01:42:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. What's up with that?

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_09] Yeah.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how I feel about that. I don't like it. Let me just say that. I don't like it. These first four episodes dropping at once.

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_09] Well, now it's also you've watched all four. I've only watched one. We can't really talk about it.

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_02] No, I know.

[01:43:15] [SPEAKER_09] No. At least it'll only be two episodes at a time, but it means the whole thing's done in three weeks.

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. No. Not feeling that.

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_09] No. Well, we want to hear your thoughts. Maybe. I mean, if you want, there's a, you can send in your thoughts about rings of powers release schedule probably to the Tolkien address. But if you want to talk about Clayface or Vision Quest or Doomsday, we'd love to hear those thoughts either in written form or voicemail form at comics versus at the lorehounds.com. You'll find that email address linked in the show notes.

[01:43:51] [SPEAKER_09] But you can also find in the link tree in the show notes, the invite to our discord where we can chat about all of that there. Jean and I are very active there. And you also find in that link tree links to the affiliate network podcasts like my own Worship Dust and the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, Dungeons and Do-Rags, Rings and Rituals just wrapped up their season two rewatch with Marilyn as well in preparation for this Rings

[01:44:20] [SPEAKER_09] of Power that's out now. Nevermind the music, Properly Howard, Cosmere Corner, a lot's going on. If you enjoyed this episode or any of our episodes, please share it with anyone else you think will enjoy it as well. We say this every single time, but it is the absolute best way to help us for free. Although nice reviews wherever you're listening are really helpful as well with getting the

[01:44:49] [SPEAKER_09] algorithm on our side. If you want to go a step further, we do have our Lorehounds Supercast and Patreon feeds. It's same content, both feeds where you get ad free access to this and all the other episodes. Plus you get extra episodes like our 11s movie club where this coming month is right now. It's the next one is Revolution Rerun. The vote is closed.

[01:45:17] [SPEAKER_09] It's Monty Python and the Holy Grail versus Robin Hood men in tights, US versus UK tomatoes and tomatoes will both be thrown. But I've got to do my final thank yous. Let's drive. Thank you. To our community volunteers, AKA the Dunedine, Hand of the Pod, Nancy, AKA two kids, two dogs,

[01:45:42] [SPEAKER_09] Captain of the Poherum, Peter O. H. Keeper of the show tracker, Sub Zero, Laura Brarian, Brian8063, Moderators, Brian8063, Aaron K. and Adrian. Thank you to our Discord server boosters, Aaron K., Tiller the Thriller, Doove71, Athena Agilea, Etla Stew, Nancy M., Ghost of Hardition, Radioactive Richard, and Adrian. Thank you to everyone who's listening. If you're listening right now, thank you so much for sticking around through our musical shenanigans.

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_09] Thank you especially if you are a subscriber. But our biggest thanks are always reserved for our top tier. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:46:48] [SPEAKER_09] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. And as always last, Adrian, AKA the Hammerer. Jean, take us out.

[01:47:09] [SPEAKER_02] Hey, Feige, I know you're listening. 2027 is right around the corner. You're going to have to let us know what else we're getting besides Daredevil in 2027.

[01:47:21] [SPEAKER_09] The last season of Daredevil.

[01:47:24] [SPEAKER_02] Let's make some announcements.

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_03] All right.

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_00] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[01:47:56] [SPEAKER_08] That's a bop. That's a bop.

[01:48:26] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.