Is 47.5 times through a guitar riff enough? This week, we grab a ticket to anywhere with Tracy Chapman’s thoughtful 1988 ballad “Fast Car.” Nichole relates this song to people’s sense of whether they are in control of their lives, and, Here in episode #89, Mark finally starts listening to lyrics, and elaborates on how the song’s repetitiveness is actually the key to its moving storytelling. Just maybe this week it will be Nichole’s turn to secrete salty fluid from her optical sensors!
Other music heard in this episode: Tracy Chapman - “Give Me One Reason”, Tracy Chapman - “Stand By Me”, Tracy Chapman - “Baby Can I Hold You”, Shelly Thunder - “Sorry,” Nicki Minaj - “Sorry (feat. Nas)”, Tracy Chapman - “Behind the Wall”, Tracy Chapman - “For My Love”, Tobtok - “Fast Car”, Luke Combs - “Fast Car”, Bob Dylan - “Hurricane”, Suicidal Tendencies - “Institutionalized”, The Eagles - “Lyin’ Eyes”, Aloe Blacc - “I Need a Dollar”
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00:00 --> 00:02 [SPEAKER_04]: has she escaped the cycle of poverty.
00:02 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_04]: No, yeah, but she's trying.
00:03 --> 00:04 [SPEAKER_05]: She's like, clarring at it.
00:05 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_05]: That's why the sun's so emotional for me.
00:07 --> 00:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I'm letting like emotionally been talking about it because she's trying so hard.
00:10 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_04]: You're much better at speaking clearly when I can see it in your eye.
00:14 --> 00:15 [SPEAKER_04]: I know.
00:15 --> 00:17 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I'm all choked when I do it.
00:17 --> 00:17 [SPEAKER_04]: I was.
00:17 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have a star wobbling.
00:18 --> 00:19 [SPEAKER_04]: I can maintain.
00:19 --> 00:19 [SPEAKER_04]: They've heard it.
00:20 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Good job.
00:20 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_04]: You should sing sad songs on stage.
00:22 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Cause that's the hard thing.
00:35 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, I'm Mark.
00:36 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Nicole, and this is never by the music.
00:39 --> 00:40 [SPEAKER_05]: What are we going to talk about today, Mark?
00:41 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Nicole, we are going to talk about Tracy Chapman's fast car.
01:03 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_09]: I could be someone, be someone, be someone
01:09 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good tempo, one of our good tempos that can play the whole chorus and still fall under what I consider the fair use on this song.
01:15 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_05]: This is one of my favorite songs to sing in my car.
01:18 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, normally, lately I've been starting with an amusing anecdote or something random about the song to get us there, I feel like it would be like disrespecting the song for me to do that, though, and it's weird.
01:31 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Why do I feel that way about this song?
01:33 --> 01:35 [SPEAKER_04]: but not other songs we do.
01:35 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like serious, but so are some of the other.
01:38 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we've done some some sad introspective songs pop songs usually have like a happy ending and this song is very true to real life.
01:49 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Like you don't really have a happy ending all the time and it's just a story of grit and resilience and
01:55 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_04]: word of the season coming back.
01:57 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I've been teaching a lot about it.
01:59 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's in the top of mind to me.
02:01 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think you're right.
02:02 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I think yeah, the melancholy sort of ending maybe.
02:05 --> 02:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this episode is coming out on Cinco de Mayo.
02:09 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I think so we could talk about our distaste for the second French empire from the 19th century to one.
02:14 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_05]: They were the worst.
02:15 --> 02:17 [SPEAKER_04]: They were within the worst of the French.
02:17 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone says so apparently especially for the nation of Mexico.
02:21 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, you're a fan, do you like this song?
02:24 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I love this song.
02:25 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_04]: This song is like also your vibe, like when I think prototypical high school in the coal, this and, you know, this sort of singer songwriter, a little bluesy, mostly folky, but that's music.
02:38 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_05]: And it like, this was one of the first songs that I heard that was more, it is more melancholy and true like the human experience.
02:46 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_05]: And I really, I'm into that.
02:48 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_05]: I want to like feel the feelings.
02:49 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And no matter how many times you've heard it, you're tearing up.
02:53 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_05]: You're tearing up at the song a little bit.
02:54 --> 02:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I think.
02:56 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you, you famously cry more than me?
02:58 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_05]: It's been documented while documented, so.
03:02 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_05]: So this is something you cry.
03:04 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I cried last week.
03:05 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I'm going to cry even though we're going to like read through.
03:09 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to like hear almost every word of the song.
03:12 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_06]: You had like a tear streaming, with single tear.
03:15 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_06]: I don't laugh at you and laugh at your vulnerability.
03:18 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_06]: That's not what this is about.
03:19 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_04]: But some of you, I know you're out there.
03:21 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Some of you probably skip the sidetracks.
03:23 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Back and up.
03:24 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Don't skip the sidetracks.
03:26 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I did cry on Mike and you could hear the gear drop here.
03:30 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was awesome.
03:31 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_05]: That was really lovely.
03:33 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Should we talk about this song for a minute?
03:34 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm into it and Tracy Chapman, Cleveland native.
03:38 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
03:39 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Second, I think.
03:41 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind the music alumnus to be from Cleveland.
03:44 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember the first?
03:45 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_05]: I would not have any idea.
03:47 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Bone thugs and or harmony.
03:49 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it bone thugs in harmony.
03:52 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Bone thugs in harmony.
03:53 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
03:53 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm reading.
03:54 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_04]: They are also from Cleveland.
03:55 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Different kind of music.
03:57 --> 04:02 [SPEAKER_04]: This album, Trace Chapman, it's called 1988, nominated for album of the year Grammy.
04:02 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
04:03 --> 04:04 [SPEAKER_04]: It lost, too.
04:04 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think?
04:05 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Which is who should a one?
04:06 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Faith by George Michael.
04:08 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh.
04:09 --> 04:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Faith is a very good song and George Michael in 1998.
04:12 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_05]: You can't really top that.
04:14 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_04]: It's peaked George Michael.
04:15 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
04:15 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_04]: But Tracey did win best new artist that year and best female vocal and best folk album.
04:21 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_05]: It's pretty good.
04:22 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_05]: So she did pretty
04:25 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, oh, definitely.
04:26 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like, so we can kind of talk about it.
04:29 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_04]: But like my first experience actually really with her.
04:32 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I had heard this song, but I didn't, I mean, we were little when this came out.
04:36 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't like pin point.
04:37 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, who is that?
04:39 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Really until that song, give me one reason came out.
04:41 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's 1995, which, I mean, I want to talk about the chart success or whatever, but this, this is that song.
04:48 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_09]: This is 1995.
05:12 --> 05:13 [SPEAKER_09]: Bye.
05:14 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_05]: both songs are about like the path not taken or choosing a different road or interesting.
05:20 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that song was bewildering to me in like eighth grade or seventh grade when I can't or how's the 1995 yeah more like eighth grade stylistically like in the in the world of me listening to dukey five green day or like sublime 40 ounce or like grades against the sheet that song I'm just like what kind of you like I hadn't heard like
05:43 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_04]: old blues.
05:45 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
05:45 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Foky blues.
05:47 --> 05:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So that song, Tracy Chapman's technical, biggest hit.
05:51 --> 05:51 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
05:52 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Number three, which is surprising to me because fast car, I think of her signature song.
05:58 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, she has some songs like, you know, that are well known and successful like, talking about a revolution or whatever, but definitely fast car is the one.
06:05 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_04]: That was only number six.
06:07 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_04]: the story of that song's rise.
06:09 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Did you look into this the whole like Stevie Wonder?
06:11 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_04]: No.
06:12 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Floppy disc thing.
06:13 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
06:13 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
06:14 --> 06:20 [SPEAKER_04]: So she was sort of discovered in scare quotes by a fellow Tufts University student.
06:20 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_05]: She was at Tufts.
06:21 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_04]: She was at Tufts.
06:22 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
06:22 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_04]: And so was Brian Koppelman, who is now a screenwriter, but his dad owned a publishing company.
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_04]: And apparently this guy like went to one of her shows.
06:31 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_04]: She wasn't really interested.
06:32 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_04]: And then he liked swiped one of her demos
06:36 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_04]: to his dad, and then she got a record contract at a lecture out of that, so it's cool.
06:42 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a little creepy.
06:44 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_04]: The consent thing is weird, but obviously it worked out, but it goes to show like private school expensive connections.
06:51 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Right?
06:51 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, you might be in a...
06:55 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_04]: class with someone who will swipe your music and give it to their record executive or publishing company executive dad, which is less like it to happen at the Community College IT.
07:04 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's not super likely I'm my school either, but you never know.
07:07 --> 07:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But so the story of this song is like rise though, has to do with this 70th birthday concert for Nelson Mandela at Wembley Stadium.
07:16 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_04]: So she played early on, I guess she was high profile enough to get like an early spot
07:22 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Like an opener, a opener, maybe not even I'll tell them I was like three people there in the sun still way up.
07:28 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about that, but yeah, that kind of thing, but then she had a fill in for Stevie Wonder, talk about pressure, because Stevie Wonder, and this is very 80's Stevie Wonder for me, he was a pioneer of like meticulously designing synthesizer sounds, self.
07:43 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_04]: And so he lost the floppy disk that had his synthesizer sounds on it.
07:49 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.
07:49 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Because you'd like this is really digital.
07:52 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_04]: You plug it into your keyboard and it would, Oh, there's the sound I need for, I just called to say I love you or whatever.
07:58 --> 07:59 [SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, I'm not going on stage.
08:00 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_05]: And they're like, because he doesn't have the floppy disk.
08:02 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, then have the floppy disk with, I think his synthesizer sounds.
08:06 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_05]: So she went and did the whole set.
08:08 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_04]: She went and did a set and people fell in love with this song.
08:12 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
08:13 --> 08:15 [SPEAKER_04]: like I said hit number six.
08:15 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_04]: So this song, again, like
08:18 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_04]: I would say her signature song, even though give me one reason, hit a little higher commercially.
08:23 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_04]: This song, 2004 Rolling Stone ranked it at number 167 on the 500 greatest songs of all time, which to be clear, eventually they read it in 2021 and promoted it to number 71.
08:36 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_04]: So I say all that, not because like, oh, that's cool.
08:39 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Number 71 out of billions is a good number, but that's the highest ranked song written solely by a female artist.
08:46 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_04]: at least at the time of the first draft of that.
08:49 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And that is crazy.
08:50 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_05]: That's crazy.
08:51 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, yeah.
08:52 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_04]: There's collaborative ones that are higher.
08:53 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_04]: But like, that's crazy to me.
08:55 --> 08:59 [SPEAKER_05]: And not even like a female, a black female artist, like any female artist.
09:00 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Any female artists, at least for at the point that that's that's a point that's a thousand.
09:03 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_04]: For one, I don't know at the 2021, one if that's still true.
09:08 --> 09:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but that I don't know that that I found that shocking.
09:11 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_05]: So let me ask you this question.
09:13 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you feel like for Traci Chapman?
09:15 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_05]: She had a lot of breaks.
09:18 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Someone's stealing that demo and.
09:20 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
09:20 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Like you're passing it up.
09:21 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Dealing maybe.
09:22 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
09:22 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Or like, it's a way for saying stealing.
09:25 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_05]: We're having handed.
09:27 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_05]: and then the Stevie Wonder thing, do you think that good things happened to her or good things happened because of her talent?
09:35 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think she like she made those things happen or that they happened to her?
09:40 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, she's really good.
09:41 --> 09:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, have you heard?
09:42 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, she's really good.
09:43 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_04]: There's just like, if you, especially if you watch like live, what she's doing here, here's just, I pulled this one up just for fun, almost.
09:50 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a really good cover of Benny King's stand by me that she did on Letterman, won the last Letterman episodes.
09:56 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_08]: So pretty recently.
10:09 --> 10:10 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, Stan
10:18 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_04]: She's the kind of good that when it's mellow is in boring when it's simple isn't boring when it's intimate you're not like waiting for a crazy high note you're not waiting for I don't know you can earnestly appreciate the simplicity of that as opposed to wondering when it's going to do something like I even just then I was on the edge of my seat and I know that song from really with it, but she's doing things that are surprising but not flashy or showy, but they're just interesting.
10:43 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_04]: But I say all that, I play that as like, look how good she is.
10:48 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_04]: I think luck is just such a massive part of this industry.
10:52 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I think if I was more lucky, I would be famous.
10:56 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_04]: And if I was more unlucky, I would not be a college professor.
10:59 --> 11:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I think I am lucky in that I have a podcast and that I'm a college professor.
11:04 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm also unlucky because I'm not a billionaire.
11:07 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
11:07 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_04]: My skills are good enough that I could be either starving in the gutter or a billionaire.
11:12 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Same with yours, right?
11:13 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_04]: So like it's a weird and you make your own luck.
11:17 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have the kind of ruthless I would never be a billionaire But like there there is a wide range that everybody even somebody as talented as and driven I would think as Tracy Chapman is a wide range could she be
11:30 --> 11:35 [SPEAKER_04]: The most famous singer-songwriter of all time, maybe could she be completely unknown?
11:35 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I think all of that maybe could have been within possibility.
11:38 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the reason I ask is because what I'd like to discuss with this song is Martin Salagman's concept of learned helplessness and also
11:47 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_05]: this language random internal versus external locus of control, like when you think of who's where your motivation is coming from where your luck is coming from, is it coming from within you or is it coming from outside places?
12:02 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's where I'd like to go in this discussion of fast car, is this idea of why it helps us and do you make your, do good things happen to you or do good things happen because of you?
12:12 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_05]: or do bad things happen to you, or do bad things happen because of you.
12:16 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_05]: When we talk about our motivations and our locus of control, and that's the language you're using, our psych glasses for sure.
12:23 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_04]: That's really interesting because I actually, also kind of want to talk about the lyrics.
12:28 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
12:28 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to talk a little bit about form, but fundamentally the lyrics are what struck me.
12:33 --> 12:42 [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to do this song, but I had no idea what to talk about, and there was something that has always bugged me
12:42 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_04]: And that turned into part of what I love about this song that I wanted to talk about.
12:45 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And it actually intersects with some of the things you're talking about, which is interesting.
12:50 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of feel like the path here is let's talk like big picture about this song.
12:56 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_04]: And then I want to hear your, I want you to like frame it.
12:59 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And then I'm going to kind of dive us into the lyrics in a more specific way.
13:02 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, great.
13:03 --> 13:04 [SPEAKER_04]: And then we can come back.
13:04 --> 13:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But before we do that, copyright watch 2026.
13:07 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Can we do plagiarism plagiarism update?
13:10 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, of course.
13:11 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_06]: All right, because plagiarism update.
13:13 --> 13:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
13:14 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_04]: There's always something.
13:15 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_04]: It's one's pretty recent.
13:16 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_04]: She sued Nicki Minaj in 2018 for a song she did.
13:20 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry with Nass.
13:22 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_04]: So this song because of the dispute was actually completely left unreleased.
13:27 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_04]: Like you can find it online, but I don't think it's a deal.
13:29 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Nicki Minaj song.
13:30 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it's...
13:32 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Do we have it?
13:34 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely.
13:34 --> 13:47 [SPEAKER_04]: So, but it's one of those things where it's, if you can hear it, but I think it's not commercially, like you go on SoundCloud or YouTube, like, that's not on streaming or whatever, because they, I guess, never just decided it wasn't worth it.
13:47 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_04]: So, apparently, she was asked to approve a sample of her song, Baby, Can I Hold You?
13:55 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_04]: This song was a minor hit from that debut album.
14:03 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_09]: You can say, yes, gone by and still Words don't come easily Like, sorry, like, sorry Like, it's Tracy Chapman, okay?
14:27 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of a sad song.
14:28 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's not like a social commentary song.
14:30 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_04]: It's more of a sad love song kind of.
14:33 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty sad, yeah.
14:33 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_04]: But so there's a cover version of this song.
14:36 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_04]: And cover versions are not necessarily, they don't need to be cleared in the same way.
14:41 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_04]: You just have to pay the songwriting royalties, right?
14:43 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is an artist named Shelley Thunder.
14:47 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_04]: This song is called Sorry, not Baby Can I Hold You?
14:50 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_04]: But it is a reggae adjacent cover of this song, Baby Can I Hold You?
14:58 --> 15:22 [SPEAKER_11]: And that gets sampled.
15:22 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, if you're looking at me, you're funny, you're not.
15:24 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just like, I don't like that.
15:27 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't like that.
15:28 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_04]: The dance hall lead kind of.
15:29 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_05]: It felt like a video game soundtrack with lyrics on top of it.
15:34 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_04]: You prefer the original.
15:35 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
15:36 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
15:37 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Show it here.
15:38 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Show it here.
15:39 --> 15:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Which is not called Baby Can I Hold You?
15:40 --> 15:44 [SPEAKER_04]: But called Sorry, which has a sample of that.
15:44 --> 15:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
15:45 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry.
15:47 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_12]: It's all that you can say.
15:53 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_12]: That's not even a sample.
16:09 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_05]: She's just redoing it.
16:11 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think it's...
16:12 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_04]: It's sampling the bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound, bound
16:38 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_05]: in your mediary.
16:39 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_05]: What about the jelly thunder?
16:41 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think there's a problem there.
16:43 --> 16:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Because that's where I see more of a problem.
16:46 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Why?
16:47 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's too similar to the thunder version of the song.
16:51 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_04]: But they probably cleared that sample with jelly thunder.
16:54 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, we did jelly thunder ever clear it with Tracy Chapman.
16:57 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to necessarily because it's a cover because you're just paying all the songwriting royalties to do.
17:03 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_04]: I believe so.
17:04 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
17:04 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
17:05 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know at that point.
17:06 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I never heard anything about her suing Shelly thought.
17:08 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
17:08 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_05]: But at that point, wouldn't it be a Shelly Thunder problem?
17:12 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Not a Tracy Chapman problem?
17:14 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_05]: for Nicki Minaj if Nicki if shelly thunder owns it because Tracy Chapman they're paying royalties to Tracy Chapman wouldn't shelly thunder have to just approve Nicki Minaj using it she probably did approve.
17:27 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah so I feel like but for you and clear but they didn't even like escalated.
17:32 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
17:32 --> 17:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Shut the whole project.
17:34 --> 17:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
17:35 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody pause and re-listen to the entire conversation.
17:40 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Down under, right?
17:42 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Listen to men at work episode.
17:43 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_04]: No, so Shelley Thunder is doing a cover.
17:46 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Shelley Thunder is paying 100% of the songwriting royalties, which is a piece of the pie, which something goes on the radio or it gets purchased, right?
17:55 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_04]: A piece of the pie that is automatically paid to Tracy Chapman or whoever is the listed songwriter.
18:02 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_04]: This is a compulsory license.
18:04 --> 18:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's called a mechanical license.
18:05 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_04]: You just like it automatically kind of happens.
18:08 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't even really negotiate it.
18:10 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a certain rate that like a cut that person gets and it's et cetera.
18:14 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_04]: That's just like standard, right?
18:17 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_04]: People get permission to make things easier, but you kind of could just go rogue as long as you're crediting correctly in royalties, right?
18:23 --> 18:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So.
18:24 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Nicki Minaj then is sampling that song.
18:27 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_04]: There's two types of ownership to Shelley Thunder's track, sorry.
18:32 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_04]: There's the songwriting authorship, which is Tracy's, and what's called the master, which is the owning of the actual record itself, the recording, which either Shelley Thunder owns, or in some cases, the record company, right?
18:45 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_04]: So whoever that is, whether it's Shelley or whoever her label was,
18:50 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_04]: They approved the use of the sample and some amount of money was paid to them for that.
18:56 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_04]: But the song is still composed by Tracy Chan.
19:00 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I guess the full songwriting royalty was not given to Chapman or something like that.
19:06 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_04]: It's the deal.
19:07 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Because they didn't treat it just as
19:09 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Nicki Minaj or Nicki Minaj is people didn't just treat it as we are doing a cover of baby can I hold you that also is a sample of this other cover of baby can I hold you in the same way that sublime doing doing time is not only a sort of cover or interpolation of the original
19:27 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_04]: song from the opera poor game best summer time, but also has a sample of the vibraphone part from the jazz version.
19:32 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't remember which artist like that's a lot of paths you still have to acknowledge the songwriter and I think Tracy Chapman was sort of not in acknowledge as the songwriter and she in any case like tried to stop it they ignored that and then she sued and the judge said the some of it there were two counts.
19:51 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_04]: The first count was okay under fair use.
19:54 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
19:55 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't remember exactly when I was looking this up which piece that is, but they settled on the second.
20:00 --> 20:02 [SPEAKER_04]: So Nicki Minaj paid her $450.
20:02 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And then the song didn't even really fully come out as a single.
20:07 --> 20:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's a bad song.
20:09 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I think I like that.
20:10 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, whatever.
20:11 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
20:11 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like the Nicki Minaj version more than the thunder version, um, but not as much as the trace.
20:17 --> 20:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just just convoluted because the first one's more okay because it's a cover.
20:21 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_04]: The sick.
20:22 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_04]: The people didn't come to hear more about copyright stuff.
20:25 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_05]: I know like you're just a whole lot.
20:26 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad this is like the real ones and I know.
20:28 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we're talking about it for too many questions.
20:30 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm curious, bird.
20:31 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_04]: People write in if you want copyright and plagiarism watch to stop being a.
20:36 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_04]: It'll keep coming up because I'm going to keep bringing it up.
20:54 --> 21:00 [SPEAKER_04]: So like I mentioned, I kind of want to talk about the lyrics, which imagine that.
21:01 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Let me guess just frame my approach here and then I want to pass it off to you, yeah.
21:05 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
21:06 --> 21:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I've always thought this was a good song.
21:08 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_04]: That guitar riff is really cool.
21:11 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_04]: The chorus is catchy.
21:12 --> 21:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It's got a cool bit when the drums come in, the beat turns on sort of, but honestly, I've kind of always also thought that the song was boring.
21:22 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_04]: And this is the framing.
21:23 --> 21:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Take.
21:24 --> 21:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hot take.
21:25 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Why?
21:26 --> 21:29 [SPEAKER_04]: That really cool riff.
21:40 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Can I highlight your excellent tonal memory?
21:44 --> 21:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Because you started to hum the and I was right on the right key right before.
21:49 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So everybody, I did not auto tune Nicole.
21:52 --> 21:55 [SPEAKER_05]: No, I can like hear it in my head before it comes on.
21:56 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_04]: You know why?
21:56 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Because you hear it 47.5 times in the song.
22:00 --> 22:01 [SPEAKER_06]: Five, five, you counted it.
22:01 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, because it ends just a bad at a boom, which I counted as a half.
22:07 --> 22:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Math people, you can find the real math there.
22:09 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_04]: 47 and a half times, unless I'm his counted, I did mess up the first time I was counting and have to restart.
22:14 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, it's been full.
22:15 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, did you talk 30?
22:17 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_06]: If people are concerned about it, that's right.
22:19 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_04]: People would have, okay.
22:20 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_04]: So this actually hit me hard because the ensemble that I directed my college, we did this one semester, and I transcribed the song.
22:29 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, oh my God, this is too much.
22:33 --> 22:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Because there's four,
22:34 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Versus before you even get the first chorus.
22:39 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_04]: There are seven verses in this song.
22:41 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
22:42 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I've always liked this song but also been like, oh my god, this is a little boring.
22:46 --> 22:47 [SPEAKER_05]: I guess I love a verse.
22:47 --> 22:48 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's what you do.
22:48 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_04]: You are a folk person and that's kind of where I want to go with this.
22:51 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_04]: But then, because I never heard this whole record.
22:54 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And I want to talk about the song.
22:56 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what to talk about.
22:58 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I listen to the whole record and I get it.
23:01 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_04]: And the repetition, the tediousness of your inverse versus versus is a feature not a bug.
23:08 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_04]: So I knew the song was social commentary, like sort of like talking about a revolution on that album, stuff like that.
23:15 --> 23:23 [SPEAKER_04]: But it's only when reminding myself of some of the other songs on this record that I like finally got it in terms of what she's really doing.
23:24 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So here's a few samples.
23:24 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_04]: This is behind the wall.
23:26 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Last night I heard the screaming, Then a silence at you, my soul.
23:32 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_09]: Prayed that I was dreaming When I saw the ambulance in the road, In the policeman said, I'm here to keep the peace With a crowd disperse, I think we all could have used some sleep.
23:53 --> 23:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's beautiful, and then it's poetry.
23:56 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it's tuned for my lover.
24:23 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_04]: In connecting with this album, I don't think it's quite a concept album, but the sort of story of the album.
24:29 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm drawn to the story telling.
24:32 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_04]: using the repetition and using the sort of controlling how often we get that chorus and what exactly that chorus means and how negative and positive each verse is as being a thing that helps the song tell its story and not a thing that makes kind of a music first person like me get bored.
24:51 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That actually if I'm listening to the music in a different way that I know folks like you listen to which is more lyrics first.
24:57 --> 24:59 [SPEAKER_04]: These are not that things.
24:59 --> 25:01 [SPEAKER_04]: This actually makes this song powerful.
25:01 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's kind of where I want to go.
25:04 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Awesome.
25:04 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_04]: So I kind of want to hear because I'm going to go through and kind of say, okay, well, this first, I think does this to the story and then the plot progresses and then we back up.
25:13 --> 25:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But why don't you kind of go where you want to go and we'll come back to me?
25:16 --> 25:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm really interested in you noting the repetition and kind of replaying things over and over because that really does connect to this idea of learned helplessness.
25:27 --> 25:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Have you ever heard that expression before?
25:29 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Learned helplessness is like...
25:31 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_04]: a negative thing that happens where you, is it like you don't even try you will allow bad things to happen to you because not of a Pavlovian response that you've been almost trained to not defend yourself or not help yourself something like that.
25:49 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Something like that, you're like circling around it.
25:51 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So circling the drain.
25:52 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_05]: circling well.
25:54 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_05]: It kind of really appropriate to this learned helplessness model here.
25:58 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_05]: So we talked about positive psychology before on this podcast, I think, especially in our whole punk episode.
26:04 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right, right.
26:05 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And I may have mentioned a guy named Martin Seligman.
26:08 --> 26:12 [SPEAKER_05]: And yes, our guest was saying that she went to you, pen and that's where Martin Seligman teaches.
26:12 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_05]: He teaches about positive psychology and happiness and growth mindset and hope.
26:16 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_05]: His research started in this idea of learned helplessness in the 1960s and 1970s, and he developed this theory that suggests that individuals when they experience situations where their actions don't change the outcome, they stop even trying to change the situation.
26:35 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_05]: When they're trying to change their circumstances or change their life and they realize that nothing ever works,
26:44 --> 26:47 [SPEAKER_05]: And Seligman coin, this has learned helplessness.
26:47 --> 26:51 [SPEAKER_05]: They learn in our condition over time to just not try any more, just what's the point?
26:53 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
26:53 --> 26:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Later on, a lot of folks connect this idea of learned helplessness to depression.
26:56 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_05]: That, you know, this feeling of hopelessness, this, you know, what I do just a matter, I can't change the outcome.
27:03 --> 27:08 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like this repetitive rumination about like, why even bother?
27:08 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's how we make the connection between this learned helpless this model and depression.
27:12 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_05]: And then later, how like maybe positive psychology can help us overcome depression.
27:16 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_05]: If we shift our mindset for more of a fixed mindset to a growth mindset.
27:22 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm sure you've heard those expressions before just being in education, growth and fixed mindset.
27:28 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely.
27:28 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
27:29 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think of myself as a growth mindset person in general.
27:32 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_05]: We're absolutely both growth mindset people.
27:34 --> 27:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I think most teachers are.
27:36 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_04]: You'd be a bad teacher if you were to hurt, you know, and I have to say like I know this maybe is a slightly different thing, but this idea of the sort of why should I bother I see that a lot with music teaching, especially if I'm dealing with a class that is not.
27:53 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_04]: musicians necessarily like a general education group or something where people are convinced that they can't learn the thing and then they just don't even engage really.
28:05 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_04]: And this I think this kind of thing you probably could follow somebody back in.
28:09 --> 28:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Second grade, they struggled to learn multiplication, whatever, and so fast forward to junior year of high school, and they're not even bothering on the algebra because they're like, they've convinced themselves that trying hard didn't work.
28:21 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_04]: So don't even bother, right?
28:22 --> 28:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
28:23 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a condition of learn to help them.
28:25 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_05]: And also, we can apply some social
28:34 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Labeling theory says that if you start labeling yourself or labeling other people a certain way, they're going to start acting in that way.
28:39 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Like if you label yourself as someone that's bad at math, you're going to get to that algebra 2 and high school and be like, I'm not even going to bother.
28:46 --> 28:48 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm bad at math.
28:48 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_05]: It becomes part of yourself concept.
28:50 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_05]: or if you label yourself as a good student and you get a C, you might be crushed because it's so virgin in yourself.
28:57 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a good student.
28:59 --> 29:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Or when we start telling people that your hopeless you'll never amount to anything, you'll never escape the situation you are born into.
29:06 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_05]: They might start thinking why even bother trying.
29:10 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Because everyone else tried knowing could get out of it.
29:13 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_05]: we have an external locus of control anyway as humans.
29:18 --> 29:19 [SPEAKER_05]: So why even bother trying?
29:19 --> 29:24 [SPEAKER_05]: So that goes back to my previous comment about like internal and external locus of control.
29:24 --> 29:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Like when you think of the circumstances that are in your life are they there because of you?
29:30 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Or do they happen to you, right?
29:34 --> 29:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you talk to me about this word locus?
29:36 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_04]: What is that?
29:37 --> 29:42 [SPEAKER_04]: That feels like it's doing a lot in that and I don't quite even know what you mean when you say that.
29:42 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Like a locus of control is a sense of control?
29:46 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
29:47 --> 29:51 [SPEAKER_05]: So the definition of the term locus is a particular position point or place.
29:52 --> 29:52 [SPEAKER_05]: That's how we're using this.
29:53 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
29:53 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
29:54 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_05]: In math, I'm looking at this.
29:55 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_04]: As in plural, there's loci.
29:57 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, low-key, probably, L.O.I.
29:59 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
30:00 --> 30:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Is L.O.C.
30:01 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_05]: you at, it's not locused, like- You might not remember what the bug, yeah.
30:04 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_04]: No.
30:04 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, that'd be pretty cool though.
30:05 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, low-kissed of controls are coming in a swarmed, like, make you turn you into your best self.
30:11 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_05]: That would actually, I would be an awesome, like, film or something.
30:15 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_05]: That would be a superhero.
30:18 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It turns out it's actually fairies or something.
30:20 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_05]: If I was like- It would be a superhero.
30:21 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I'd be the low-kissed of control.
30:24 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_05]: million dollar idea.
30:25 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Locus people right in and talk to us about Locus because I feel like living I've lived I've never lived in the Midwest where I think that's like literally still happened.
30:33 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Is it?
30:34 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_05]: I thought it was just like a Bible or a McGeadon thing.
30:37 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Real stuff happens in the Bible though.
30:39 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Like no I think Locus are still a thing where swarms of grasshoppers will come and demolish it a crop or cicadas and stuff.
30:46 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of nuts.
30:48 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_05]: If a bunch of Locus destroy your crop.
30:51 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Does that offer the internal or external locus of control?
30:56 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's external, unless it's divine punishment for things you have done.
31:01 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this isn't interesting.
31:02 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Philosophical.
31:03 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_04]: So back.
31:04 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
31:04 --> 31:11 [SPEAKER_04]: So locus of control is your positioning relative to having or not having the control.
31:11 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you're positioning relative to your circumstances or like how how the circumstances come up.
31:17 --> 31:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Like we both I think feel like we have internal or I know for me, I feel like I have an internal locus of control.
31:24 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like good things happen because of me because I'm talented and smart and advocate for myself.
31:29 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
31:29 --> 31:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And there's also the fundamental attribution ever there, right?
31:33 --> 31:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Which we also talked about recently, right?
31:34 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_05]: It's more not necessarily.
31:36 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Which means what you are in charge of your good things and other bad things are because of peoples.
31:41 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no, it's not the fundamental.
31:43 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_04]: But it's the opposite, right?
31:45 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_04]: We're like bad things.
31:46 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Or like your late because should I cut it out or is this?
31:49 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
31:49 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_05]: No, but great because I can prove I can like teach you.
31:52 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's good.
31:52 --> 31:54 [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people get this mixed up.
31:54 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_05]: The fundamental attribution are is
31:59 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Or if you do good things, you're a good person.
32:01 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Just person cut the line in traffic because so they're not just all.
32:05 --> 32:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Not because they're in this situation, right?
32:08 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
32:09 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_05]: The fundamental attribution error is ignoring the fact that we have internal motivations as individuals.
32:17 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And the locus of control is all about identifying those internal motivations.
32:21 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_05]: What if you have an internal locus of control most likely what you have is called a self-serving bias?
32:28 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_05]: sure example right where teachers people in our classes get good and bad grades.
32:35 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
32:35 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
32:36 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_05]: When students get a good grade they often say I got an A.
32:40 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_04]: As opposed to Professor Vacher gave me an F. Yes.
32:44 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
32:44 --> 32:45 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's an example.
32:45 --> 32:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm extremely careful when I write emails to people about their grades to say like, you earned or you received, whether it whether it's good or bad.
32:55 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Same.
32:55 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Because I don't want the paper trail of like it proves a bias if I say I do enough.
33:00 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I am saying that it was a thing that I be cleaved onto you.
33:03 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
33:03 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why it becomes problematic in our field when professors grade intuitively.
33:08 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
33:09 --> 33:11 [SPEAKER_04]: You and I got to have a rubric there.
33:11 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way you and I are doing that.
33:12 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_05]: We're rubric people.
33:14 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But not everyone is.
33:14 --> 33:21 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure in music you have to work with faculty that grade intuitively, grade based on feeling not cool.
33:21 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
33:22 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm all like people that I've worked with for years literally they'll like call me up being like, what's the river?
33:24 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Dear chair, right, because that's what I am.
33:26 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm the department chair, right?
33:27 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I'm not there boss, but I'm like first of all an equals.
33:29 --> 33:39 [SPEAKER_04]: That'd be like, God, there's this student that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that,
33:39 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_04]: what does the syllabus say you didn't say attendance was mandatory in your syllabus then no you can't fail them there's pulse if you said if you don't submit your jury videos on time you get an F well then you should give them an F but if you can't like make that up like and his musicians look some of us that are teaching music theory or whatever like cut our teeth as grad students in a classroom you know TAIN
34:03 --> 34:11 [SPEAKER_04]: If you were like an opera singer major, your TA position was like, coach the voice majors in their opera studio, like you weren't doing the syllabus, you weren't doing.
34:12 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And so some people, and it's not a negative or a bad thing.
34:16 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just it's not natural for them to be systematized.
34:19 --> 34:23 [SPEAKER_04]: You're like, but you have to, if you're going to fail somebody, right?
34:23 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And that really being very careful about that language in our field is really showing and understanding whether you believe, know it or not, of these concepts, of the concepts that have students do poorly.
34:35 --> 34:36 [SPEAKER_05]: It's on them.
34:37 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_05]: If students do well, it's on them.
34:38 --> 34:40 [SPEAKER_05]: They have internal locus of control.
34:40 --> 34:42 [SPEAKER_05]: You don't do it to them.
34:42 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, right.
34:43 --> 34:45 [SPEAKER_04]: So bring in this back to this song.
34:45 --> 34:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So you're talking about this locus of control as it relates specifically to learned helplessness.
34:51 --> 34:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
34:51 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_04]: So somebody learned helplessness chiefly is associated with an external locus of control.
34:57 --> 35:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it was a bright it came up in early experiments that rats were exposed to stress and they were given no chance to leave that stressful environment.
35:06 --> 35:12 [SPEAKER_05]: And then after a while, they exposed the rats to the
35:12 --> 35:15 [SPEAKER_05]: And the rats still wouldn't leave because they had been learned.
35:15 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_04]: They had been caught that doesn't matter.
35:17 --> 35:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Is this like predating modern ethical?
35:20 --> 35:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, this is nineteen six.
35:21 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Not okay what they were doing.
35:22 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, it's probably still, they can probably still do stuff like that.
35:26 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_05]: If they have to get to rats, yeah.
35:27 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But when we think of the song, it talks about like trying to change your circumstances.
35:32 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Right?
35:33 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Trying to like leave the cage.
35:35 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_05]: The virus opened and we're trying to leave, but they still can't like escape the patterns.
35:39 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_04]: effort for trying though so does the try and I think the try and whether it's successful is a big part of our conversation.
35:46 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
35:47 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Does the try tell us this is not learned helplessness.
35:51 --> 35:53 [SPEAKER_05]: The try tells us it's not learned helpless.
35:53 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_05]: The try tells us that they want to believe, that they have an internal locus of control, but things are getting in the way they can overcome.
36:02 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Learn helplessness is when you become convinced there is only an external locus.
36:08 --> 36:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's not true in this song.
36:11 --> 36:12 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not true in this song.
36:12 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_05]: It's interesting to think of these concepts when we listen to the song because you want them to succeed, you want them to win and they don't.
36:19 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_04]: They don't.
36:20 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that the 47 and a half times we hear the riff is possibly our proof that they aren't going to succeed.
36:28 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_05]: No, and they're trapped in the cycle, right?
36:30 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And this song is talking about these generational cycles of poverty poverty and abuse and like toxic relationship so most and trying to overcome trying to pull yourself out of it, but couldn't keep getting sucked back in.
36:43 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And I should mention, according to what I found, like, this is not directly autobiographical, but it's based on things she observed growing up in Cleveland.
36:52 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's entirely not.
36:53 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_04]: The semis, whatever, that she would see this pattern, that people couldn't escape.
36:59 --> 37:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And they're very much that fast car imagery literal escape.
37:03 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_04]: They're trying to actually get out, but yet that follows them.
37:07 --> 37:09 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a, you know, a haunting movie or whatever.
37:09 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_04]: We're like the ghost follows you to the next house, right?
37:12 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
37:13 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Let me talk through some of the words and let's listen to some of the words we can circle back.
37:18 --> 37:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't we like check in on this with each verse?
37:20 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Like where does this in the story and where is this with the?
37:24 --> 37:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's really interesting too because when I said that Martin Seligman really built his career around these areas of positive psychology and learned helplessness doesn't feel like positive psychology that much.
37:36 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_05]: It's really interesting to watch the arc of his career.
37:39 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_05]: And his mentality changed around like how we can explain this human condition, how we can reframe it.
37:45 --> 37:48 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's I think that's going to be some cool connections to make.
37:48 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder, I mean, we've been talking about like in recent recordings like, okay, well, I'm trying to think of a song concept we haven't done yet.
37:54 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, let's do four.
37:55 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you're like, oh, well, have we talked about this site concept?
37:57 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like maybe we can come back to this is a great example of the
38:01 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_04]: locus of control that we can follow through lyrics, but we might find a song in the future that is a example of learned helplessness that's actually taking hold.
38:10 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_04]: As opposed to this song, which I think they're demonstrating an ability to not suffer from learned helplessness, even though maybe they should because it doesn't matter what's happening.
38:20 --> 38:24 [SPEAKER_05]: So maybe when we look talk about this song, we'll talk about the internal external locus of control.
38:24 --> 38:27 [SPEAKER_05]: But now our listeners have that primer unlearned health and sister leaders.
38:27 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_04]: When we find our really sad songs,
38:31 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so let's start off and let's sort of, let's follow this thread, but also just what is the main emotion and story plot sort of moment of each section of the song.
38:43 --> 38:47 [SPEAKER_04]: So again, good tempo because we get to hear basically a full section here.
38:48 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_09]: This is the first verse of the song.
38:57 --> 39:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe together we can get somewhere And it places better Stocked from two got nothing to lose Maybe we'll make something Be myself, I got nothing to prove
39:10 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_04]: What do we get from that?
39:12 --> 39:13 [SPEAKER_04]: What's the theme?
39:13 --> 39:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we're setting up this idea that we're not doing anything here.
39:17 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's get out, let's leave.
39:19 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_04]: This is what you want.
39:21 --> 39:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, this is what they want.
39:23 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe it's a potential energy, right?
39:26 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_04]: It's all upside, what can we do?
39:28 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm a drama kid, and in drama, they always said to you like before you go on stage, think to yourself, who am I?
39:35 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Where am I going?
39:36 --> 39:38 [SPEAKER_05]: What do I want?
39:38 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's a great way to set this up for any story to like think of that intention.
39:42 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_04]: It's funny.
39:43 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I know you said drama and not musicals, but don't the stereotype in musicals.
39:47 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_04]: There's the one song like it does me princess once song like part of her world or whatever.
39:52 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't just frame who the character is, but you frame who the character is by saying what are they desire?
39:57 --> 40:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And that like sets up the narrative arc.
40:00 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what this first verse is doing.
40:02 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_05]: It's starting to lay the foundation of who these characters are, who this character is, and what she wants.
40:08 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_04]: No sign of learned helplessness, internal locus of control.
40:11 --> 40:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Internal locus of control, huge testament to growth mindset.
40:15 --> 40:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Like we got nothing lose, maybe it'll work out.
40:17 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_05]: But we got nothing to prove.
40:18 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's just try shows motivation, intrinsic motivation.
40:22 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Verse number two.
40:23 --> 40:42 [SPEAKER_09]: We've got a fast car I got a plan to get us out of here Been working out of the convenience store Man is to save us a little bit of money Won't have to drive you far Just across the border and into the city You and I can both get jobs Finally see what it means to be living
40:42 --> 40:43 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you got?
40:43 --> 40:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, same here.
40:44 --> 40:49 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like we're motivated and like we can overcome these circumstances and it wouldn't even be hard to do.
40:50 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Like the cage is open, let's leave.
40:51 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
40:52 --> 40:59 [SPEAKER_04]: It's the looking more specifically at the circumstances and this one that makes me feel like if the first one is like, what do we want?
40:59 --> 41:00 [SPEAKER_04]: This is more the how.
41:00 --> 41:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have the lyrics open?
41:01 --> 41:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
41:02 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_04]: What are some of the words there again?
41:03 --> 41:06 [SPEAKER_05]: I've been working on the convenience store managed to save some money.
41:06 --> 41:07 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll cross the way and get into the city.
41:07 --> 41:08 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll get jobs.
41:08 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_05]: It won't even be hard.
41:09 --> 41:12 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like, let's make a plan.
41:12 --> 41:13 [SPEAKER_05]: And there's intention.
41:14 --> 41:15 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's optimistic.
41:15 --> 41:16 [SPEAKER_05]: It's optimistic and it's accessible.
41:17 --> 41:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Like we're just going to drive and we're going to get some jobs.
41:19 --> 41:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So again, we're a bit in southern India.
41:21 --> 41:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Internal locus, we're grabbing that power.
41:24 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
41:25 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, we've had two verses.
41:26 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_04]: We don't yet have a chorus, which is very odd for a pop song.
41:30 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's order for a folk song.
41:31 --> 41:34 [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't really a pop song, but it kind of is.
41:34 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_04]: But it kind of isn't, right?
41:35 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
41:36 --> 41:43 [SPEAKER_04]: We can talk a little bit about that, but later, like I'm gonna play a Dylan song that has 17 verses.
41:43 --> 41:50 [SPEAKER_04]: So the folk music tradition and Dylan is also folk, pop music in the sense that it's not true folk music.
41:50 --> 41:55 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like a amateur 19th century, like a Marica, it's like a professional songwriter.
41:55 --> 41:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I can love Bob Dylan, but you could probably guess that.
41:58 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Just a little less a little telegraphed, I think.
42:01 --> 42:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But there is this tradition in the folk world of having a lot of verses, right?
42:07 --> 42:17 [SPEAKER_04]: The verse chorus form we talked about this with boys to men comes out of country music, which is kind of like a pop music version of folk music from the early 20th century, right?
42:17 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_09]: So, okay, we have another verse, still no chorus, verse 3.
42:28 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_09]: This is where the song gets, like, less hopeful and more sad to me and more real.
42:47 --> 42:47 [SPEAKER_10]: It's dark.
42:47 --> 42:48 [SPEAKER_05]: It's dark.
42:48 --> 42:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, she had to surrender her dreams to take care of her dad because her mom couldn't deal with it.
42:54 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Her mom, like, took the out.
42:59 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Developmentally appropriate for Tracy chat or whoever this character is.
43:02 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm labeling those Tracy Chapman, but it could be anybody.
43:04 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_04]: It's cool.
43:05 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_04]: So she's either high school or young or college or something.
43:09 --> 43:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of off-time event to have to take care of a parent when you're wondering or whatever.
43:13 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_05]: When you're 18, 20.
43:15 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
43:15 --> 43:17 [SPEAKER_04]: This one is darker.
43:17 --> 43:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, whereas the first two are very optimistic.
43:20 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_04]: But to me, this is also explanatory.
43:22 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_05]: It does.
43:22 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So if the first one is like, what do we want?
43:25 --> 43:25 [SPEAKER_04]: How are we going to get it?
43:26 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Is the second one?
43:26 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_04]: This is why.
43:27 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, as I never got the chance to spread my wings.
43:31 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_05]: And now I do.
43:33 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_05]: But it's the same thing her mom did.
43:34 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_05]: She's from mom just took off and left.
43:37 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
43:37 --> 43:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Because she saw that maybe the cage wasn't open.
43:39 --> 43:40 [SPEAKER_04]: She's going to like, yeah.
43:40 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_05]: She's going to bust through it.
43:42 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So I want to, again, kind of what I was drawn to talk about about this is like the fact that it has seven verses, which I used to view is kind of a negative.
43:52 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Think about the fact that we haven't reached the chorus yet, but we had this abrupt turn in tone before we've had the chorus, and the chorus, as we'll see, has a different flavor.
44:04 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And so what does that do to the story?
44:06 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that we haven't even reached the like, Tadah, here's what this is saying.
44:10 --> 44:20 [SPEAKER_04]: We haven't even reached that yet, but we have this back where you're supposed to like see not only the the reason why, but also where this is ultimately going.
44:20 --> 44:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
44:21 --> 44:27 [SPEAKER_05]: There's like a whole I'm I'm looking at the lyrics now learning that I'm very good at annotating form.
44:27 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
44:28 --> 44:32 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm seeing like the pre core I'm calling it a pre chorus coming up next.
44:32 --> 44:36 [SPEAKER_05]: that's kind of setting the intention of for what the chorus is going to be.
44:36 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I would call this next thing just a fourth verse.
44:40 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
44:40 --> 44:44 [SPEAKER_04]: But it is shorter, but musically it's just a shorter verse.
44:44 --> 44:45 [SPEAKER_04]: It's half as long.
44:45 --> 44:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So I could see why you'd say pre-chorus, like structurally it's different, but musically it's sort of just a mini verse.
44:51 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
44:52 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_09]: So let's listen see what it's like.
45:04 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Also, notably, not to ran on your parade too much, but a pre-chorus usually builds to a thing.
45:09 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this doesn't exist.
45:10 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Go right back to meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow
45:29 --> 45:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
45:30 --> 45:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And she literally says, we got to make a decision or something like this.
45:33 --> 45:35 [SPEAKER_04]: This is where we go from what do we want?
45:36 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_04]: How do we want it?
45:36 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Why?
45:37 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Which is the first three two.
45:40 --> 45:42 [SPEAKER_04]: We're deciding we're going to actually do this.
45:42 --> 45:53 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like a consideration in the brain and then a decisive action, but then things change a little bit and we get our chorus.
45:53 --> 46:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Never remember when we were gathered Driving in your car Speed so fast that the lag I was drunk City lights day up before us And you're on the next wrap round my shoulder and I high Had a feeling that I belong I high Had a feeling I could be someone Be someone Be someone
46:17 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Man, this song gets me every time.
46:20 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I've heard this song in a million times.
46:22 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And every time, I'm just like, it's so relatable.
46:25 --> 46:27 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's so relatable for me.
46:28 --> 46:30 [SPEAKER_05]: And this isn't my lived experience.
46:30 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And I have a blessed life.
46:32 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_05]: And this feeling that there's always more out there is just haunting.
46:37 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's expressed so lovely.
46:39 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_05]: in just the lyrics and the way the treatment of them.
46:43 --> 46:46 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just like it's so beautiful and you just want her to win.
46:46 --> 46:48 [SPEAKER_05]: You just want to win so bad, you know?
46:48 --> 46:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Totally.
46:49 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_04]: What I want to highlight here also though is this is like written differently, like structured poetically so to speak.
46:57 --> 46:58 [SPEAKER_04]: This is in past tense.
46:58 --> 46:58 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
46:58 --> 47:01 [SPEAKER_04]: All of the rest of the verses, you got a fast car.
47:02 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_04]: You're almost in a conversation, discussing what's about to happen.
47:05 --> 47:08 [SPEAKER_04]: It's more present tense and talking about the future.
47:08 --> 47:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
47:09 --> 47:09 [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to do this.
47:10 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_04]: They see their present or future tense.
47:11 --> 47:15 [SPEAKER_04]: And now, do you remember when we were driving in your car?
47:15 --> 47:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
47:16 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Speed so fast felt like I was drunk.
47:17 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It's all reminiscing here.
47:19 --> 47:23 [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting because even though it's hyper specific, it's describing a very specific moment.
47:23 --> 47:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
47:24 --> 47:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Driving in a car with someone's arm around you.
47:27 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_04]: It's really much more about the emotion, not about the story, but about the emotional moment.
47:32 --> 47:37 [SPEAKER_05]: And like chasing that feeling, you know, that like one feeling of that one moment that you felt free.
47:38 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And like maybe we can get back there.
47:39 --> 47:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to cry.
47:40 --> 47:41 [SPEAKER_05]: I think I'm going to cry.
47:41 --> 47:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Like actually shut a tear.
47:43 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to, I'm going to milk it.
47:45 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_04]: And you can make fun of me.
47:46 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_04]: You can get it.
47:46 --> 47:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I got to get back.
47:47 --> 47:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to title that episode.
47:49 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Nicole finally shows you an emotion more class.
47:54 --> 48:01 [SPEAKER_04]: But so I hear this as pretty positive like energizing this section, right?
48:01 --> 48:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't, I still feel so sad to me, but it's because of what happened in the arc before.
48:08 --> 48:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
48:09 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, that's kind of what my point is here that
48:12 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_04]: We just had that to me that third verse is the really important piece because it's the negative why are we doing this the cycle of poverty with your father you have to take care of and the past tense of the chorus after we've had that emotional journey of the sort of her key jerky of oh everything's good oh wait no things aren't good okay let's actually do this thing and then there's this past tense
48:35 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember this makes you wonder like, wait, is this a cycle?
48:40 --> 48:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Where are we in this story right now?
48:42 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Is it unclear if she still feels this way?
48:45 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember back when we were happy?
48:47 --> 48:51 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a good way to affirm the listener that you are still happy.
48:51 --> 49:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no, and especially if you were happy, you wouldn't be thinking about making this major drastic change that had such high stakes to it, like leave tonight or live and die this way.
49:00 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's forwarding to the end.
49:02 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
49:02 --> 49:07 [SPEAKER_04]: So there's something about if we had had verse one, verse two, this is what I want.
49:07 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_04]: This is how we're going to do it.
49:09 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Then this chorus, you're like, this is a story about redemption, this story about freeing yourself.
49:15 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that we have this sort of way too long, two minutes or whatever, a four versus before we get that first chorus, tells us that this is a story about the cycles of poverty.
49:25 --> 49:28 [SPEAKER_04]: We should not be hearing this as fully happy.
49:29 --> 49:31 [SPEAKER_04]: This is melancholy.
49:31 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_04]: and there's something unsettled about this chorus because it's past tense and we've already seen the sort of dark aspects to this story and you think I agree with you it's it's foreshadowing because the pop song version of this the fully pop song version of this this would be the second chorus okay we would have already have heard that first chorus which two verses ago which would have felt just
49:54 --> 50:22 [SPEAKER_04]: empowered and then by the time yeah let's go by the time we're at this chorus we're programmed let's go right now I'm forced to really think should we go should we like is it not really point the work the weird thing is we only have three more verses at this point yeah so the song has told us a lot of it so let's see there's a lot of exposition in the song it's very much set up the act one I think of this song if we think of it like a story yeah we just finished chapter one mm-hmm
50:22 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Back's one of this play is longer than act two and three.
50:46 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
50:48 --> 50:51 [SPEAKER_09]: You've got a fast car.
50:51 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_09]: You go cruise and entertain ourselves.
50:53 --> 50:54 [SPEAKER_09]: Still ain't got a job.
50:55 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Now work in the market as a check out girl.
50:57 --> 50:59 [SPEAKER_09]: I know things will get better.
51:00 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_09]: You'll find working out.
51:01 --> 51:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Get promoted and we'll move out in the shelter.
51:04 --> 51:07 [SPEAKER_09]: By a big house and live in the suburbs.
51:08 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're seeing like still.
51:09 --> 51:11 [SPEAKER_05]: She's maintaining her growth mindset.
51:11 --> 51:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
51:12 --> 51:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Things are tough.
51:13 --> 51:14 [SPEAKER_04]: They're living in a shelter butt.
51:14 --> 51:15 [SPEAKER_05]: They're going to get out.
51:15 --> 51:18 [SPEAKER_05]: But she's going to get out.
51:18 --> 51:23 [SPEAKER_05]: years starting to feel like maybe her partner ship isn't matched in that mindset.
51:24 --> 51:24 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
51:24 --> 51:30 [SPEAKER_05]: That maybe there's some hopelessness creeping in to a really highly motivated plan.
51:30 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_04]: At least one of them.
51:31 --> 51:32 [SPEAKER_05]: At least one of them.
51:32 --> 51:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And also, I'm reading it as autobiographical, but I'm reminding myself that it's not, it's just telling a story of a character.
51:38 --> 51:42 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm affirmed in that.
51:42 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_05]: When, and I'm, I'm sure at some point, you're going to bring up the loop comb version, like, more recent cover of the song.
51:49 --> 51:51 [SPEAKER_05]: In that version, he doesn't change the lyric here.
51:51 --> 51:54 [SPEAKER_05]: The lyric is, and I work in the market as a checkout girl.
51:54 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_05]: He sings it as that.
51:55 --> 51:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, he sings, I work in the market as a checkout girl.
51:58 --> 52:02 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's a really interesting choice.
52:02 --> 52:13 [SPEAKER_05]: He could have, like he could have changed it to be autobiographical, but I think he deliberately kept it as it's written, to speak to more of like a storytelling, like an objective storytelling.
52:13 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_04]: So I mean, we're writing the middle of the verses here, but let's talk about the Luke Humpur channel.
52:17 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_04]: So there's actually a lot of covers of this song and Luke Humpur's is merely the most famous.
52:23 --> 52:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
52:23 --> 52:25 [SPEAKER_04]: I just wanted to call out one, tell me what you think.
52:25 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_04]: This is the Swedish dance artist, Top Talk.
52:38 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_12]: What do you think?
52:49 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think I think of that?
52:51 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you hate it, I like it.
52:53 --> 52:53 [SPEAKER_06]: I like it.
52:54 --> 52:58 [SPEAKER_06]: There's a time in place that if I heard that song, I mean, like, oh my god!
52:59 --> 53:02 [SPEAKER_06]: It's a Swedish cover in the movies.
53:02 --> 53:04 [SPEAKER_06]: I just, it's such the end tip.
53:04 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_06]: This is of what their song is about.
53:05 --> 53:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Like this song, I want to feel sad when I listen to music.
53:08 --> 53:10 [SPEAKER_06]: And that is not doing it.
53:10 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_04]: So Luke comes number one single cover version from a couple years ago.
53:19 --> 53:36 [SPEAKER_01]: We go cruising in the tank ourselves Still ain't got a job So I work in the market as a check-out girl I know things will get better But you'll find a work in how I get promoted And we'll be out on the shelter Buy a bigger house, live in the suburbs
53:38 --> 53:45 [SPEAKER_04]: So the thing about that checkout girl line, he is also playing it as a story he's telling about a character, right?
53:46 --> 53:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Not a autobiographical thing.
53:48 --> 53:57 [SPEAKER_04]: And when we think of like, oh, white country musician takes a black song, like he's doing what he should be doing, which is, it's a story he's telling.
53:57 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_04]: He's not making that about him, and I think,
54:00 --> 54:01 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a very straightforward cover.
54:02 --> 54:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Like he basically just does the song.
54:03 --> 54:04 [SPEAKER_04]: And she does it.
54:04 --> 54:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Love that.
54:05 --> 54:10 [SPEAKER_04]: And that we could years of evidence like Decry like, oh, a white artist becomes more successful.
54:10 --> 54:15 [SPEAKER_04]: The fact is she got a lot of money from him doing that cover.
54:15 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_04]: He honored her in doing that.
54:17 --> 54:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It seemed like so like,
54:19 --> 54:27 [SPEAKER_04]: She was the first black person ever to win a country music association award for song of the year because of that song 30 years or whatever later than she wrote it.
54:27 --> 54:29 [SPEAKER_05]: She performed live with him.
54:29 --> 54:31 [SPEAKER_05]: I think on the Grammys or something and it was awesome.
54:31 --> 54:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing.
54:32 --> 54:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
54:32 --> 54:34 [SPEAKER_04]: So 2024 Grammy Awards.
54:35 --> 54:42 [SPEAKER_04]: The thing that kind of is a trip about that performance is they trade versus and so.
54:42 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_04]: It almost reframes the story where you could consider it as two people doing the two sides of the story except that he doesn't change the word.
54:52 --> 55:04 [SPEAKER_04]: When I don't remember exactly which versus he gets there, but it almost suggests, do we have a different perspective being offered as like a two-part narrative, but then the way that he treats the song,
55:04 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_04]: as just, no, we're just telling a story about a woman and her partner, subverts that.
55:10 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's an opportunity to, oh, it's a duet where they're talking to each other.
55:14 --> 55:14 [SPEAKER_04]: No, they're not.
55:14 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_04]: They're playing it like they're two storytellers.
55:16 --> 55:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
55:17 --> 55:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And it works well.
55:18 --> 55:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Like I have to say, like, as much as I'm often like, oh, a cover version got really famous.
55:23 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm not mad at Luke Holmes.
55:24 --> 55:25 [SPEAKER_04]: I think he did a good job.
55:25 --> 55:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think she's happy for him and probably happy to get a revival in the sense that now, Gen Z people know the song, you know?
55:32 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_05]: the song has a fair amount of grit to it and while I think Tracy Chapman's voice has a shot everybody.
55:37 --> 55:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, but the, oh, gosh, imagine.
55:40 --> 55:41 [SPEAKER_05]: But this is written in different.
55:41 --> 55:43 [SPEAKER_05]: What's another word I can use for grit?
55:43 --> 55:45 [SPEAKER_05]: like graveliness his.
55:45 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you mean literal.
55:46 --> 55:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Great.
55:47 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Little bit of his voice.
55:48 --> 55:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, gravel.
55:49 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_05]: He has like a graveliness to his voice.
55:52 --> 55:55 [SPEAKER_05]: That Tracy Chapman doesn't as much.
55:55 --> 56:00 [SPEAKER_05]: So it adds a little bit of vocal tension to the song when the lyrics had tension for me too.
56:01 --> 56:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
56:01 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_05]: And he like can almost get that note, you know, the high note.
56:05 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
56:06 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's like reaching for it.
56:07 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_05]: And I love that like upward mobility
56:10 --> 56:12 [SPEAKER_05]: that's mirrored in his voice.
56:13 --> 56:14 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm reading too much into it, but that's my nature.
56:14 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you like his version better?
56:16 --> 56:17 [SPEAKER_04]: No.
56:17 --> 56:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
56:17 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I like it a lot.
56:18 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's good though.
56:20 --> 56:20 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think.
56:22 --> 56:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's close though for me.
56:23 --> 56:24 [SPEAKER_05]: It really is.
56:24 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of the same.
56:25 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_04]: It's yeah.
56:26 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of the same, right?
56:26 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure there are people listening to this that hate it because of that, like some of you even folks that maybe aren't into dance music go.
56:35 --> 56:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, the top talk Swedish house one, at least they took a, like, this is a little bit like he's doing a concert and he does just for fun and a cover of fast car.
56:45 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_04]: And he just plays it exactly right?
56:47 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
56:47 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_04]: my scob and will like play our set and we'll just throw in like a real big fish song for fun and we don't do like a re-enter we just play this on because it's easier to learn that way we just play it right what we'll do you know a cover and sometimes you just do a straightforward cover because so many people could argue that the Luke Holmes version lacks.
57:05 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_05]: artistry.
57:06 --> 57:07 [SPEAKER_04]: You could, yeah, that it's less original.
57:07 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a well performed cover of hers.
57:10 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_04]: And so for some people, maybe they ate that for some people that makes them like it.
57:13 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Because they go, well, basically, there's Tracy Chapman, somebody different person.
57:16 --> 57:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And for some people, it might feel so nostalgic that they like it even more.
57:21 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's nostalgic, but like modernized with this Luke Holmes version.
57:25 --> 57:29 [SPEAKER_04]: But hopefully people go back and listen to this record, though, and not just Luke comes version.
57:29 --> 57:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Although she still, you know, gets I think she's okay.
57:32 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_05]: She's probably.
57:33 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_05]: I hope.
57:33 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
57:34 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
57:34 --> 57:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I think she's like, I want them to listen to my version.
57:36 --> 57:38 [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay.
57:38 --> 57:45 [SPEAKER_04]: We just had verse five, which is sort of things are tough, but they'll get better, which kind of mixes the two vibes.
57:45 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of optimistic, but also realistic.
57:48 --> 57:49 [SPEAKER_04]: But then we go right back into the chorus.
57:50 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember when we were driving in your car?
57:53 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And so, we've ended that chapter.
57:55 --> 57:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Like chapter two is a short chapter, which is like,
57:58 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_05]: not working out.
57:59 --> 58:01 [SPEAKER_05]: We're still trying to get it to work.
58:01 --> 58:01 [SPEAKER_04]: We're trying.
58:01 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_04]: We're still trying.
58:02 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no we're not stuck in this cage.
58:04 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_04]: We're still trying.
58:05 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_05]: And she's like leaving for hope.
58:06 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Like remember, let's go back to being hopeful.
58:08 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's go back to it.
58:09 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_05]: We can get there.
58:10 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just really interesting that it doesn't have a structure where we get a couple more verses.
58:15 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_04]: The story is not elaborated on.
58:17 --> 58:20 [SPEAKER_04]: We go right to the nostalgia sad.
58:20 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember being happy chorus?
58:22 --> 58:23 [SPEAKER_04]: This is going to be a cycle.
58:24 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Every little inch, we're thrown back a little bit, right?
58:26 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_05]: You can like start feeling
58:28 --> 58:31 [SPEAKER_05]: The four texts pulling them down, you know.
58:31 --> 58:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a positive way to look at it.
58:34 --> 58:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, so verse six This is the last full length verse
58:57 --> 59:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this is the sad part for me because she's saying, like, I'm fine, you're broken.
59:01 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm fine and I'm going to be fine without you.
59:03 --> 59:06 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's really powerful.
59:06 --> 59:21 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it take take your fast car and keep on the fast car is the thing you remember as a part of positive memory, but actually, please, just keep driving dude, get out, you know, I is so funny here and I always shook it so literally, like, you're your car keys.
59:21 --> 59:23 [SPEAKER_05]: go right and get in your car and drive away.
59:23 --> 59:24 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
59:24 --> 59:30 [SPEAKER_05]: But now I'm seeing that yeah, it is a reference to this like take your good memories, take like all the things that we had in the past and just get out.
59:31 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Is it over now?
59:32 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Because this is still spoken like it's present tense.
59:35 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_04]: But the chorus that we have, we again, we have a chorus immediately again.
59:39 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_04]: The third chorus happens here, not another verse, which is still remembering.
59:44 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_04]: It's still so this over at this point.
59:47 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think she's I think getting to the she's getting fed up and she's prioritizing herself and her kids and realizing that having him not around is going to be better off and less of a bird and then having him around.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:06 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a sad realization, but also a really empowering one.
01:00:06 --> 01:00:09 [SPEAKER_05]: I think for a lot of women that are she's trying to break the cycle.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_05]: She's trying to not do what her mom did and what her dad did.
01:00:14 --> 01:00:19 [SPEAKER_05]: And she's realizing that with with him, she's going to be still trapped in that cycle.
01:00:19 --> 01:00:21 [SPEAKER_05]: So she needs to like get him out of the picture.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:22 [SPEAKER_05]: So she can move on.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So going back to what you brought up the locus of control.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Where are we at with this?
01:00:27 --> 01:00:31 [SPEAKER_05]: She's still maintaining this internal locus of control that she can change.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:40 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's just getting swept up and all these external things and not showing intrinsic motivation towards change.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, she's saying, like, I'm going to make changes that are going to possibly impact myself and my family's life, and if you're not going to be with me in those changes, you can just drive away.
01:00:48 --> 01:00:49 [SPEAKER_05]: You can get driving.
01:00:50 --> 01:00:53 [SPEAKER_04]: has she escaped the cycle of poverty?
01:00:53 --> 01:00:54 [SPEAKER_04]: No, yeah, but she's trying.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:55 [SPEAKER_05]: She's like, clarring at it.
01:00:56 --> 01:00:57 [SPEAKER_05]: That's why the sun's so emotional for me.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I'm letting like emotionally been talking about it, because she's trying so hard.
01:01:01 --> 01:01:05 [SPEAKER_04]: You're much better at speaking clearly when I can see it in your eye.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I know.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:07 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I'm all choked when I do it.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I was.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:09 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have a star wobbling.
01:01:09 --> 01:01:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I can maintain.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:10 [SPEAKER_04]: They've heard it.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Good job.
01:01:11 --> 01:01:15 [SPEAKER_04]: You should sing sad songs on stage, because that's the hard thing.
01:01:15 --> 01:01:30 [SPEAKER_04]: So our last verse is sort of an outro, so we have this long chapter one, and then a short chapter two, short chapter three, where things sort of accelerate negatively, sort of, and our last chorus is our last glimpse of this kind of remember the positivity.
01:01:31 --> 01:01:36 [SPEAKER_04]: But we have, I think this last verse is parallel to our fourth verse.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_04]: The fourth verse, remember, was the, we got to make a decision,
01:01:41 --> 01:01:44 [SPEAKER_09]: You've got a fast stop.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:45 [SPEAKER_09]: There's fast enough so you can fly away.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:47 [SPEAKER_09]: You've got to make a decision.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:50 [SPEAKER_09]: You've to not live and die this way.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Is she talking to him?
01:01:54 --> 01:01:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I think him in this story.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Or is she talking to herself?
01:01:57 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I think she's talking to herself.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Leeds a night or live and die this way.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like leave him tonight or like get trapped in the cycle again.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:06 [SPEAKER_05]: And now I'm crying.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Now it's like really happening.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:09 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll talk.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll talk.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Unless you want to.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:12 [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's okay.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Want to amplify that.
01:02:13 --> 01:02:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, how does this end?
01:02:15 --> 01:02:16 [SPEAKER_05]: It just like stops.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:18 [SPEAKER_04]: It just stops.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:18 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:38 [SPEAKER_04]: This riff is kind of bright and cheery, but a little bit like plaintive, kind of introspective sounding, and it just sort of ends in the middle, but it ends on a nice, stable chord.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:46 [SPEAKER_05]: And like the repetition of it where we're looking for resolution because we've been primed hearing this riff throughout the whole song that it's going to resolve.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:48 [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to close and it doesn't.
01:02:49 --> 01:02:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's really beautiful because there is no resolution.
01:02:53 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_05]: And like we think that we're going to get to an end point of our challenge.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And so we never do it just kind of keeps going.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's like why life's awesome.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Because it keeps getting challenging.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I just stop talking.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:06 [SPEAKER_05]: It's bad.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like this podcast is like therapy.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 [SPEAKER_06]: What's happening to me?
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Literally our last episode.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like tying and then like you're doing it.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Are we just, is it done?
01:03:15 --> 01:03:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Are we going to be talking about like, we're going to be talking about some bubble gum pop next season and we're going to just be bawling.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Like leaking this like salty discharge from my eyes.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:29 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's not someone get a plumber in a malfunction over here.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:44 [SPEAKER_04]: You should we change the subject or we need to get my I'm done now is my last thing to talk about other songs that do That's great structures, but like do that just wrapping up to emphasize a point for the 80s time like
01:03:44 --> 01:03:48 [SPEAKER_04]: I started from the frame of like, God, this is kind of boring.
01:03:48 --> 01:04:11 [SPEAKER_04]: There's four verses, but I think that emotion that you're experiencing is kind of unlocked to a certain extent by how long that chorus takes to get there and how many times we hear the verse is it forces us if you're someone who listens to lyrics, which I'm really happy after I heard the record and I heard some of literally that song behind the wall has no instruments.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:13 [SPEAKER_04]: I have to listen to the words, right?
01:04:13 --> 01:04:35 [SPEAKER_04]: And it forced me the next time I heard this song to go, maybe I should actually listen more carefully, hearing that kind of turn in the story and that first cycle of the four verses, and then the way it's chopped up with these smaller pieces later, let's us really open ourselves to the questions this is asking, does she get like,
01:04:35 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Should we be happy for her sad for her like it's very complicated and you get invested in the character in the Exposition of all the courses on the front end of the song that when she gets to the chorus and like the emotional apex of the song and they're you're on her side Like you're not saying like oh, you should work it out with him Maybe she's a dad go back and just like your mom left hurt.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but she she's doing it for the same reasons and I think
01:05:03 --> 01:05:11 [SPEAKER_05]: that that's a really interesting piece that doesn't when we talk about like cycles here and generational cycles of this controlled locus of control.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Like her mom left her dad for the same reason that she's leaving her partner.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:18 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_05]: But instead of the mom just left and left the house behind, she's telling him to get out of the house.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:25 [SPEAKER_05]: She's like kind of breaking that cycle.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:26 [SPEAKER_05]: She's telling him to go.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:30 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's yeah, I thought it is.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I think so.
01:05:31 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_04]: I think she's
01:05:33 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, especially folk music will sometimes do this thing where there's this like long series of verses, right?
01:05:41 --> 01:05:49 [SPEAKER_04]: So I've got some examples, not all folk related, but where we can see lots of verses piling up in a way that
01:05:49 --> 01:05:57 [SPEAKER_04]: enriches the story and makes it more like has a chapter story telling because fundamentally what why is this song great because it's a good story story.
01:05:57 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_05]: I love storytelling in music.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:02 [SPEAKER_05]: If you play Bob Jones don't think twice it's all right.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:03 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to lose it.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that one of your songs?
01:06:04 --> 01:06:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not playing that one.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:08 [SPEAKER_05]: That's the one that'll get me to that should have been on my songs that make me cry.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll start with the Bob Dylan though.
01:06:10 --> 01:06:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:06:10 --> 01:06:19 [SPEAKER_04]: So because this does come from a lot of times, the folk tradition will do this, what I'm not pulling from is the really abstract songs.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So like American pie by Domic Lean or Hallelujah.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, Leonard Cohen, which is like 40 versus in the original, but really it's all just abstract ways he's talking about sex, right, like an American pie.
01:06:33 --> 01:06:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, he's he's inspired by the playing crash and all that, but it's kind of a surrealistic journey.
01:06:39 --> 01:06:42 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm looking at ones that are actually really following the story.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Like two ballads, a ballad in the true sense of not us sad slow love song, but a story.
01:06:48 --> 01:06:54 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is Bob Dylan 1975 hurricane, okay, which
01:06:54 --> 01:06:55 [SPEAKER_04]: not don't think twice.
01:06:55 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_04]: It's all right.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Thank goodness.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Isn't that can handle it?
01:06:58 --> 01:07:01 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a little more abstract, lyrically, right?
01:07:01 --> 01:07:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So this one has some weird stuff, but it is also telling the story about Rubin Hurricane Carter, who's, you know, falsely, he's a murderer.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:11 [SPEAKER_04]: 17 verses.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my God.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But it jumps around to different characters at different points.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:26 [SPEAKER_04]: So each one of these verses plays a very specific role in the emotional story in the same way, or in a similar way rather to what Tracy Chapman is doing.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:29 [SPEAKER_04]: There's only three choruses in this entire song.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And the first one happens after the first verse.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm looking at the lyrics now, and I'm like, where it's a while down there.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the first one happens first.
01:07:37 --> 01:07:41 [SPEAKER_04]: It depends after the first verse, and then we have a long way for the second.
01:07:41 --> 01:07:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So here's a snippet.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, so that's that's one of the verses as a sample.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:04 [SPEAKER_04]: It's unending at parts and then we hit that chorus.
01:08:04 --> 01:08:09 [SPEAKER_04]: And each one of these is introducing a new kind of complex aspect of this narrative.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:14 [SPEAKER_04]: So a couple other examples going in different directions.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:19 [SPEAKER_04]: 1983, the song has three super long verses.
01:08:20 --> 01:08:25 [SPEAKER_04]: The first one is sort of a framing story and the second and third are arguments with his parents.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:29 [SPEAKER_04]: This is institutionalized by suicidal tendencies.
01:08:29 --> 01:08:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh no, no, I don't.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:31 [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:34 [SPEAKER_04]: This is not folk music.
01:08:34 --> 01:08:35 [SPEAKER_06]: No.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:48 [SPEAKER_04]: it's like from the perspective of a teenager who's going to be institutionalized by his family and each one is sort of a different frame and the argument the debate he's having with them and it culminates in the really intense chorus.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:49 [SPEAKER_04]: So here's a sample.
01:08:50 --> 01:08:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It just doesn't work out where I want it to, and I get real frustrated.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:03 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, I'm trying hard to do it, and I think my time, but it just doesn't work out where I want it to.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a constant real hard, but it's just doesn't work out.
01:09:06 --> 01:09:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything I do and everything I try, it never turns out.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, at least I'm feeling these things out.
01:09:10 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_02]: There's always no other than one.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:13 [SPEAKER_02]: It might, you know, even though it's even had a lot of problems.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:16 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's not enough, though.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a bunch of verses.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:19 [SPEAKER_04]: It's super long verses, right?
01:09:19 --> 01:09:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And it seems like really cathartic.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:23 [SPEAKER_05]: You don't have never heard that, I'm not crazy.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:24 [SPEAKER_05]: It's the Tusha.
01:09:24 --> 01:09:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
01:09:25 --> 01:09:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Is that the song?
01:09:26 --> 01:09:28 [SPEAKER_05]: The put my in and it's the Tusha.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I know that.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I know that.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I know the chorus, I guess.
01:09:30 --> 01:09:32 [SPEAKER_04]: But crossover thrash, chorus, right?
01:09:32 --> 01:09:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know that the lead singer of this band, like the band, make up has changed so much over time.
01:09:37 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_05]: But he's just the only consistent person in the band this whole time.
01:09:40 --> 01:09:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know that for that.
01:09:41 --> 01:09:42 [SPEAKER_05]: They can really paramour.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:43 [SPEAKER_05]: It's a paramour.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:44 [SPEAKER_05]: It's a paramour thing.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
01:09:45 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I just googled that.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't comment.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:47 [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_05]: I went from never even knowing nothing to knowing a lot.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_04]: I know in a lot.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:09:51 --> 01:09:54 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what the internet is.
01:09:54 --> 01:09:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:09:54 --> 01:09:55 [SPEAKER_04]: 1975 also like Hurricane.
01:09:56 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Lionized by the Eagles.
01:09:57 --> 01:10:04 [SPEAKER_04]: So this one waffles back and forth each verse is either a description of what's happening or a rationale.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Some of them seem to change who the bad guy is, like there's certain verses that give us sympathy for the woman who's out having the affair.
01:10:13 --> 01:10:19 [SPEAKER_04]: And then because her husband's kind of lame, but then you go to some verses where it's like,
01:10:19 --> 01:10:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, that sucks for the guy too, right?
01:10:21 --> 01:10:27 [SPEAKER_04]: So here's a sample of that punctuated by these choruses that are always simple and straightforward in the same.
01:10:49 --> 01:11:07 [SPEAKER_05]: They're really painting a picture and I, all the songs that you're pulling do that, they're really, they are, it's not a veiled narrative, it's a straightforward narrative, like we're story telling here and I obviously respond really well.
01:11:07 --> 01:11:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And the idea is, these songs and I'm only playing small snippets, but each verse is giving you a different part of the story, specifically, and not just that, a different emotional
01:11:16 --> 01:11:18 [SPEAKER_04]: beat in the story as opposed to just more detail.
01:11:19 --> 01:11:23 [SPEAKER_04]: I will say though this one I do think this is a beautiful song around like verse eight.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:43 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like Okay, let's get back to it because it because the verses are long all right each one that was one verse and then there's gonna be I think two more before we get a chorus Last example All who black you know or yeah All black like I'm 2010, you know, so he's most famous
01:11:43 --> 01:11:48 [SPEAKER_04]: moment in pop culture probably is the vocalist and wake me up by VG, right?
01:11:48 --> 01:11:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, but this tune, I need a dollar for verses.
01:11:53 --> 01:11:56 [SPEAKER_04]: So a little more than average, but not as long as some of these other ones.
01:11:56 --> 01:12:05 [SPEAKER_04]: The first one sort of frames and then each one is a different specific and he's talking about being essentially like destitute and that.
01:12:05 --> 01:12:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Each one's are different parts of the story and then the fourth verse really is emphasizing sort of the emotional reality and it's really
01:12:13 --> 01:12:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah.
01:12:14 --> 01:12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, not as much in the folk tradition, but sort of Miller kind of American roots music.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I love the song he talks about, you know, having friends to help him out and try to find jobs and then how kind of life gets him down and he's like, get a lot of toxicity in this life that he's trying to avoid.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:56 [SPEAKER_05]: This one doesn't seem as much like, lyricsly driving a narrative, but like the repetitive nature of it.
01:12:57 --> 01:13:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Like the bits that are obviously like repeated throughout the song, like bring you back to that story telling, bring you back to that moment of like, who is this person?
01:13:04 --> 01:13:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:13:05 --> 01:13:07 [SPEAKER_05]: That meant to
01:13:07 --> 01:13:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, you can hear it in the, you can hear it.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:14 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, um, all right.
01:13:15 --> 01:13:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Do it, because there are more upbeat way we can add on this.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:21 [SPEAKER_04]: That's all I got, but upbeat.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I believe that people can overcome their circumstances.
01:13:24 --> 01:13:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's generally upbeat mentality.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:49 [SPEAKER_05]: It's sad to me when people feel like they can't escape the vortex of life, like pulling them down, but also that's a kind of a privileged position to come from like that's like I live a blessed life, you can say you're saying don't do learn helplessness don't do it avoid it like say no to learn helplessness say just say no to learn helplessness.
01:13:49 --> 01:13:57 [SPEAKER_04]: the notably successful foolproof death in front of the day for all your psychological friends.
01:13:57 --> 01:14:09 [SPEAKER_05]: The thing that too, and I will say like Salagman himself is when you think of his theories of learned helplessness, and I know that we focused more on locus of control, but he did like
01:14:09 --> 01:14:15 [SPEAKER_05]: come later in his career, found the whole really the school of positive psychology.
01:14:15 --> 01:14:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, which just whole thing around to be like learned optimism.
01:14:18 --> 01:14:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Like we can promote the other side of it.
01:14:20 --> 01:14:22 [SPEAKER_05]: We can promote no matter what happens.
01:14:22 --> 01:14:29 [SPEAKER_05]: You can still overcome and let's lean into that internal locus of control that you have control over your own destiny.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:31 [SPEAKER_05]: I think for that's an uplifting thing.
01:14:31 --> 01:14:33 [SPEAKER_05]: It's not like funny, but it could be.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:59 [SPEAKER_04]: any psychology concept is funny if you just imagine the rats the rats yeah like the experiments of the rat yeah i'm sure it was hilarious to like the rats escape the cage or whatever they like a fast car and they put their arms around each other do do you do you do you remember the mouse in the motorcycle no what are you talking about the mouse in the motorcycle it was a movie from when we were little kids or maybe before he talked about
01:14:59 --> 01:15:02 [SPEAKER_04]: No, an American tale, that's that'll take a cry.
01:15:02 --> 01:15:04 [SPEAKER_06]: We were gonna love to watch it as a kid.
01:15:04 --> 01:15:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, why can't I have Russians in it?
01:15:07 --> 01:15:07 [UNKNOWN]: No.
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01:15:38 --> 01:15:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.