Marilyn geeks out over Bear McCreary‘s music and the secrets it reveals in a bonus episode with none other than Phillip Menzies, the Bard of Ered Luin. Musician, composer, and music theorist extraordinaire, not to mention co-organizer of Ozmoot, Phillip is also the host of the YouTube show “The Words and Magic of Music in The Rings of Power.” Find out why Bear’s blog is so helpful, explore the connections of the Harfoor and Stoor themes, and what they say about the two cultures, and hear musical speculations for season three. No knowledge of music theory required!
Find Phillip:
- Blue Sky: Phillip Menzies
- Apple Podcasts: The Words and Magic of Music in the Rings of Power
- YouTube: Phillip's SilmFilm Soundtrack
- Facebook: Hern Ennorath Australia
- Facebook: Sydney Tolkien Fellowship
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00:13 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, and welcome to a bonus episode of Rings and Rituals Season 2, where we will be examining the music of season 2 of the pain in my case series Rings of Power with a very special guest from the words and magic of music in Rings of Power.
00:28 --> 00:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Riffindell.
00:31 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Philip the Bard of Erad Luin.
00:35 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're delighted to have Philip as a guest, and all of you as listeners.
00:39 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Philips YouTube program, which is also available as a podcast, examines the themes that compose your Bermary Creary Road for the Peoples, Places, Objects, and themes of the Rings of Power.
00:50 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Philip, welcome!
00:52 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Before I get to the music, why don't you first tell us about yourself?
00:55 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, well, as you may be able to tell from my voice, I am an Australian, and I'm lucky, I'm one of the lucky people who live in a place in the world that has a counterpart in Middle-earth.
01:09 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I live in the Blue Mountains in Australia, just west of Sydney, but no one calls at Erad Louine except myself and a few other fanatical people like myself.
01:21 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien lovers.
01:21 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien lovers.
01:21 --> 01:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking lovers, we're not talking lovers.
01:24 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, of course.
01:27 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_00]: My handle, which you have read out a few times, Folkow is from the Township where I live, which is called Folk and Bridge.
01:36 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is connection there with with the father of Federation in Australia, you see Henry Parks.
01:43 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's a very, it's a very nice little, it's very suburban, but we're in the mountains and we love it here in the mountains.
01:54 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been musical and musician all my life, I learnt piano as a child and did some theory at that time, but it's only been recently that I've actually changed to calling myself a musician before that, what did you do, what do you do, I play the piano.
02:18 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But now I consider myself to be a musician because I've developed musically in so many ways over the past few years.
02:27 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly consider you a musician based upon your extensive knowledge and ability to analyze various music, so yeah.
02:35 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you.
02:36 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I've always had a reason to keep being involved in music over the years.
02:42 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Have a piano, you if you click Maryland, you can see the piano in the background.
02:50 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've always kept on playing over the years, unlike my siblings who have not, we all let the piano, but I'm the only one who's still plays.
03:00 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, at the moment, the reason for me to keep on playing is because I am the Communist for a community choir, where called Shine Community Choir, and I do a lot of the arrangements as well.
03:13 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just about playing the piano.
03:14 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually work out a lot of the vocal arrangements and the harmonies because often they're not commercially available.
03:21 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're also a composer?
03:24 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I am also a composer, and that really only happened, I really only composed my first piece of music in my early 50s, believe it or not, before that I really didn't feel like I was in a place to do that and didn't have the inclination to, and I found myself part
03:53 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we started at the beginning of the Silmarillion, there was a lot of basic talk about what the soundtrack should sound like.
04:01 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And even talk about the Iron Lendolay because the Iron Lendolay was going to be in the first episode.
04:08 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you show the Iron Lendolay musically?
04:15 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_00]: in an episode of television.
04:18 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So there were lots of conversations at those early stages about what the music should sound like.
04:25 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But as start to get towards the end of the season, it was like no one was willing to actually step forward and write any music.
04:37 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_00]: and I'd be doing that.
04:39 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, everyone was happy to talk about it, but no one was happy to actually get in and do it.
04:46 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was when I said, okay, I'll have to go out writing music.
04:49 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote my first
05:02 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: thematic material, which was for the valor, and the concept was that, all throughout the Silmarillion, there would be continual callbacks to the valor, like even later on when there's no action happening in valor nor it's all happening in middle earth, if a person experiences grief, we're going to hear in the end as theme.
05:26 --> 05:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
05:27 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
05:27 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
05:28 --> 05:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I was involved with that very briefly.
05:30 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I realized quickly that it was going to take far more time than I had, which I know I was sorry, but you probably remember that my handle was Neendil, which don't love her, or follow her of Neendus.
05:45 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
05:46 --> 06:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I did go back and find those early, early forum entries to, and that was when I remembered only recently what it was like back then and trying to get people to actually get in there and write some music.
06:01 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote some music and I've been writing ever since for the film project.
06:07 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I have an ultimate goal, and that is to write my own version of the
06:15 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a lofty goal and I've actually written half of it but it's the easy part
06:27 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_00]: When everyone, when anyone talks about the island lender, they always jump in and they start talking about the three themes because that's what the island lender is all about, but if you actually read it carefully, a lot happens before the three themes are used.
06:45 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
06:46 --> 06:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've already written 15 minutes of music, which demonstrates that what happened before the first theme was actually sung by the owner.
06:59 --> 07:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And the only people who have heard that so far are the people who attended Osmour in 2023 in Brisbane.
07:08 --> 07:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So I will get it out there one day, but I need to do some more work on the second half, which is the
07:14 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_00]: much more complex part.
07:16 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's every other version, you know, how sometimes you're going through YouTube and like, hey, there's a video called Island Lake.
07:27 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll have a listen to that and I'll watch that.
07:29 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I found is that no one is actually tackling what the music actually is and when it comes down to it, they're all just like that tenacious D song tribute.
07:40 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_00]: by Jack Black which is this is not the actual song this is just a tribute to the song every version of the island lay that I've listened to is exactly like that now one has actually gotten down to what does the island lay actually sound like and how do those themes mix together?
08:03 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
08:04 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've heard Jordan Reynolds realization of that.
08:10 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember it in particular because he very kindly asked me to read the text for the, you know, to go along with it for probably a Tolkien reading day or something, a well-back.
08:22 --> 08:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was very, very spare in his interpretation.
08:25 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not in your head, so you probably have heard it already, yeah.
08:30 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I haven't.
08:31 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you haven't.
08:31 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not.
08:32 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll take a listen.
08:33 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_01]: See what you think.
08:34 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_01]: If you can find it out there and not sure what the access points would be for that.
08:39 --> 08:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, do, I mean, start with Jordan Rennels.
08:43 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He also edits the PPP podcast and is all over the interwebs related to Tolkien and all kinds of other things.
08:51 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
08:53 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
08:54 --> 09:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And most recently, actually only last weekend, I had my first piece of music actually played by a live orchestra.
09:05 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, how exciting that must have been.
09:08 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It was.
09:08 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It was really good.
09:10 --> 09:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I do intend to, uh, I do have a recording of it.
09:13 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I will get it up onto my YouTube channel.
09:15 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Once I can get it off my phone and on to my computer.
09:21 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but yeah, it was wonderful to hear my music played by a real live orchestra.
09:27 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And I told him this was my world premiere.
09:30 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It was only very scary.
09:31 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
09:33 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, but it was people who were interested.
09:35 --> 09:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the wedding
09:38 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, be interesting here.
09:41 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You talk about that in season three, and okay.
09:47 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So we've heard about your musical background.
09:49 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_01]: What can you tell us about how you first in Canada, J.R.R.
09:52 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien, and when and where has that in Canada taken you since?
09:59 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, before I met Talcon, it took me a little while, it didn't take me long to realize that I was attracted to fantasy and the fantastic.
10:13 --> 10:23 [SPEAKER_00]: My father had a collection or still has a collection of comics called Classic Comics, and they were what we were now called graphic novels
10:24 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_00]: All the great novels from the, like, I think there was even some, like, going back to some Shakespeare stories, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, the Count of Monte Cristo, but I was always attracted to Jules Verne, H.G.
10:44 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Wells, there was even a version of the Odyssey and the Iliad.
10:51 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: They were the ones that I really loved.
10:53 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So I knew as from a young age that I loved the fantastical.
10:59 --> 11:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I did read the Chronicles of Narnia in early high school.
11:04 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in Australia high school, I think means a different thing.
11:07 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would have been 12.
11:09 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have middle school.
11:10 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have middle school.
11:11 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: We just have primary school and then high school, which is year 7 to 10.
11:16 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So I read in the Narnia Chronicles and absolutely loved them.
11:20 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was the next year in you, right?
11:25 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the end of the last day of term and we're having an English class in the library.
11:30 --> 11:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And I lamented to my teacher and said, I've got nothing to read over the holidays.
11:36 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And she disappeared into the library.
11:39 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And she came back holding the Hobbit.
11:42 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So read this and I did and loved it and then very quickly went on and I think in the same holidays went on and read the Lord of the Rings and since then it was just it's just sort of grown from there.
11:59 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know this is in the 1970s.
12:02 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So the following year the Silmarillion was published.
12:07 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I had no idea of the significance of the Silmarillion
12:10 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: that time, but I read it and thought, oh, some more books by Tolkien, just what I want.
12:18 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And how did you do with the Silmeraly and on your first read?
12:22 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't too bad.
12:24 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It was, I was, of course, everyone is taken by the very, the, the, the, the big change in style and the fact that they were when there were no hobbits.
12:40 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But it'd help me to understand the Lord of the Rings so much better, because reading the Lord of the Rings before, as you may know, reading the Lord of the Rings before the Silmarillion was published, means that there are so many things in there that Tolkien is referring to with no context, like the mention of Aramae and the Phil on the Pellanal fields, just like the only time Aramae is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings.
13:09 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_00]: prior to the Silmarillion, people had no idea of that context.
13:14 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the generation that we were.
13:18 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, look at what it wasn't too bad.
13:20 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I sort of got the main story of Faye Norbert was very surprised that he died so early in the story.
13:29 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, look at was it was good and then of course unfinished tiles was published and that was that was great to read and really it made sense because it was adding to
13:44 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_00]: what we'd read earlier, either tales from the Silmarillion, the Nanai Hinhuren, the children of Huren from Silmarillion, or the added stories about the wizards, the battles at the forwards of Ison, the way the black riders were hunting for for the ring, all of that sort of made perfect sense and it was adding to what we already knew.
14:11 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I love the fact that we suddenly got a sense of the black writers is really not being quite as with it as we thought to the point of can they really find their butts with their you know what's not so much and yet they almost drew everything without even knowing that that's what they're doing.
14:36 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_00]: um exactly um and I found found only on the Tolkien pretty much ruined every fantasy author for me yeah a lot of us have regretted that that experience
14:49 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_00]: because I read in first and so I spent years and years searching for another fantasy author who had the same depth as Tolkien and took me many years to realise why I couldn't find that.
15:02 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't begrudge those other authors now.
15:05 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I used to use to say, oh, why?
15:06 --> 15:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Why have it?
15:07 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Why can't they write something as as in-depth as talking?
15:12 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't worry about that anymore and just enjoy them for what they are.
15:16 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But at the time it was quite difficult not understanding Tolkien's creative process.
15:22 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, picture how the publishers would have been very upset with any author who said, yeah, well, I need about 15 years to write this next one.
15:31 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly right, exactly right.
15:33 --> 15:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But then, of course, the books of Lost Tales, the beginning of the History of Middle Earth was published, and I think I got that for my 21st birthday, after dipping my toe in a few times, it was that was the really difficult, difficult one.
15:47 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it took me a
15:49 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: about 10 years to actually get in and read them.
15:53 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the main time I was still collecting the history of the Middle Earth as it came out.
15:58 --> 16:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I still haven't finished reading all of the history of the Middle Earth.
16:01 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I will get there.
16:02 --> 16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's pretty much my experience too, except I have read all of it and I've re-read bits and I've drawn from it for papers and so on and so forth, but I did like the first book of Lost Tales and the second one and then the one after that came out and they just said, what is this?
16:20 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was the lays, I think, and at that point, I really didn't have a much appreciation of Tolkien as a poet.
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Not to mention the context of all the rest of it put together,
16:31 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Because Tolkien's biography had only recently come out to Humphrey Carpenter, and I had to read and re-read and teach my course on Tolkien sources for a good decade before I could really begin to slot things in and say, OK, yeah, I can see now where this is really really valuable.
16:55 --> 17:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but, uh, yes, I've always, I've continued to love Tolkien and reread and, um, ventures of Tom Bombadil and Farmer, Farmer Giles Fam and, and, uh, all of those other stories, uh, leafed by Nicole, I've loved all of those.
17:11 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_00]: and continued to read, and being involved in the Silmarine film project.
17:18 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I was sort of led to the Tolkien professor through a series of podcasts.
17:24 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I finally sort of found my way to him, and then I've been involved in his podcasts, joining them live when I can, but commenting and being a contributor to the Silmarine film project.
17:37 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: But it really was in 2023, we had our first Osmoot in Brisbane, Australia, and Elana, who also became involved with film as a writer.
17:51 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_00]: organised that.
17:52 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So for four years now, we've had Corey coming to Australia and Signum hosting Osmoot every time and it's just the Australian Talcon Fellowship has just grown so much through through those myths and with and we've got local events happening in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra.
18:18 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's really growing where we're sort of game that momentum and there's a lot of there's a lot of interest at the moment and recently myself and three other people, one representative from each of the capital, those capital cities, we appeared on the Tolkien Guide 20th anniversary live video feed.
18:42 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_00]: They had a 20-hour video feed.
18:44 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: We were on,
18:48 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but how wonderful and how delightful it was in that must have been really exciting.
18:55 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It was.
18:55 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, now that we know a bit more about you, what we really came here to talk about is the music.
19:01 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So perhaps you could describe to us a little bit of your process when you're analyzing
19:11 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, and I suppose I have to start once again by backtracking and just explain that I didn't just wake up one morning and decide that I wanted to analyse bears scores of the rings of power.
19:24 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't happen like that.
19:26 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
19:27 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It really happened with Howard Shaw's music in the ring.
19:32 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
19:33 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, as a lover of Wagner and Opera, not the composer himself, but the music, the music.
19:40 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I was very well acquainted with light motifs, so I knew from the very beginning what he was doing with it all, as clearly you did as well.
19:49 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well I think it was a slow, it was a slow realization for me at that time I loved the music and I got the soundtracks and listened to them over and over so became really familiar with the music and I watched the appendices on the on the extended edition voice
20:08 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_00]: and love the ones about the music and the themes.
20:13 --> 20:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But it wasn't until I went to a live performance of the movie in 2011 at the Sydney Opera House.
20:23 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading the line of notes and what I read, it wasn't actually correct what I read but I interpreted it as it's as saying the ring theme and the evil of the ring theme were the same theme and I was actually, it wasn't actually saying that but that was how I interpreted it but it was in fact correct because there are variations of the same theme
20:49 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was sort of the point where everything sort of, my mind went boom.
20:54 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Boys.
20:57 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
21:00 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd always been, like, the thoughts of variations of themes is always been something that I've really resonated with and love the idea that you can play something in a different arrangement and make it sound so very different.
21:18 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
21:19 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The instrumentation, the juxtaposition of other melodies along with it, stretching or compressing the theme or the rhythm or yeah, there's so much you can do isn't there.
21:32 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_00]: exactly.
21:33 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I started to realize that that was what Howard Shaw was doing in the Lord of the Rings movies.
21:41 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Managed to get the coffee table book, the music of the Lord of the Rings films, which is a beautiful book.
21:49 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so nicely presented, but it's written so that you can actually read a long while watching the movie.
21:57 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's a fantastic book.
21:59 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I have it as
22:02 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_00]: it is.
22:02 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So all of that is sort of giving me more and more insight into how film scores are put together.
22:10 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I started listening to podcast.
22:12 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a good Australian one called the Art of the Score, the soundtrack show.
22:17 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:18 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:18 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:19 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite good.
22:19 --> 22:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And a few of us went to a performance at the Sydney Opera House early this year hosted by the Art of the Score and it was
22:31 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: and the soundtrack show by by an American David W. Collins.
22:35 --> 22:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of these people say get used to listening to analysis and how people go about listening to music and of course I listen to a lot of soundtracks and listening to composers talk about what their creative processes are.
22:53 --> 23:07 [SPEAKER_00]: During all of this I came upon bear McCreary, I often heard him interviewed by another composer, and so I'm getting more and more information about this whole creative process for four composers.
23:07 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I'm actually composing myself, and so I'm bringing
23:22 --> 23:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and as I said with variations, I love their variations on a theme and for how it sure was the shy theme, played in different ways, the defensive version, the rural version, and the him version, and it was the him version that actually led me to understand how soundtracks actually work.
23:44 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I was listening to the soundtrack and so is not lovely how at the end of the fellowship with the ring the music Just transition so lovely into in dreams and then after that you get any singing may it be And then I'll watch the movie and I get all confused because Anya's song would be played first followed by follow by Andrew.
24:05 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on here?
24:05 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Why is it different?
24:09 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that gave me an understanding and my understanding was that the soundtrack is how it imagined it to be and wanted it to be.
24:20 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But when it came time for it to like the final cut of the movie,
24:26 --> 24:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if this happened, but I can imagine the conversation between Peter Jackson and how it's sure.
24:32 --> 24:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And Peter's saying, while the time we get to any song, there'll only be third of the audience left in the cinema and you need to pump it up earlier.
24:43 --> 24:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
24:43 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
24:45 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: When you invite such a well-known artist as in, yeah, to feature in a film, you gotta pull it in right away.
24:52 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So what now means that we've got these really clunky transitions in the movie, whereas in the soundtrack, the transitions are just so streamlined and beautiful.
25:03 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You should go and listen to it.
25:05 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, all your listeners, go and listen to it and hear there is a difference.
25:09 --> 25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's sort of some learning about soundtracks.
25:14 --> 25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens now is that I read, I find out what the creator is saying about their music, and I just listen for patterns.
25:24 --> 25:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a good ear for music.
25:26 --> 25:28 [SPEAKER_00]: As said, I'm a piano player.
25:29 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a brilliant piano player.
25:32 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can play music that I want to play and I do need to read music.
25:39 --> 25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not one of these people who can just sit down and play anything by you that is not me at all.
25:45 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I was really able to improvise when I was still able to play the violin before ten and I just said, sorry, that part of your life has to end, although I'm still a violinist, but yeah, it's amazing how there are people who can improvise and just sit down and well, piano mostly just start playing music at the end.
26:06 --> 26:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And the job of the hat, it's wonderful.
26:08 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, so over the years I developed this habit of listening to a soundtrack before I go and see the movie and I find that it puts me more in tune with the soundtrack.
26:22 --> 26:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Often I walk out of the movie and think, if you ask me about the music, it was, it was nice, but I don't remember any of it.
26:30 --> 26:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
26:32 --> 26:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So I listened to it first and then I go on watch and I'm more in tune with what the composers and the directors are trying to do.
26:43 --> 27:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when rings a power was being being released, it hadn't quite been released and now I was slowly releasing some tracks from the soundtrack and the track, the track list for season one was what was released before the music was.
27:02 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I looked at it and thought, oh, okay, so there's the main thing, that one's called Galadriel, that one's called Sauron, that one's called Hellbrand, that one's called Numenor, it sounds like, basically what I've been doing, he's writing a track which is a thematic track to say, this is what the theme sounds like,
27:27 --> 27:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was, and then you get to the first track, a track further down called in the beginning.
27:33 --> 27:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, I wonder what in the beginning is about.
27:36 --> 27:38 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't sound like anything.
27:38 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And then as a read more of the track titles, I got to understand that, oh, he's got a mixture of thematic tracks and tracks which are actually lifted straight from the show.
27:52 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember because I do the same thing too.
27:55 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I, if the soundtrack is available before seeing the thing, I get it and I start listening.
28:02 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You know comparisons are odious I understand I had Howard Shore under my skin So I knew that this had to be somebody You know to to look at from their own merits and not Look for another Howard Shore whenever but the first couple of ones as you say I thought oh, golly
28:23 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_01]: This is so basic A, B, I really hope he's going to, you know, use a little development here.
28:32 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, as you say, when you got away from his state of the themes and then got into actual soundtrack background stuff.
28:39 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, this is a little better, but it kind of threw me for a loop at first.
28:45 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but
28:46 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_01]: by the end of season one.
28:48 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I was on board, definitely on board.
28:50 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Although I will say, and maybe this is heresy to some listeners if it is my apologies, I got kind of tired of Galadriel's theme by the end of season one.
29:00 --> 29:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know it's because she was the focal character for the vast majority of it.
29:07 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_01]: that lorty lorty, I just thought, oh, can I please air another melody?
29:13 --> 29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he wasn't, I think maybe he didn't have time to develop it to the extent that he certainly did in season two.
29:20 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that got a lot better.
29:23 --> 29:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But of course we're seeing more people we're getting introduced to more storylines at that point in character arcs and so forth.
29:29 --> 29:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
29:31 --> 29:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and look bare admit himself, he's he I was actually in an interview with him and court Corey and Maggie on there on their show other minds and hands, right because I was Corey's like I was the person the Corey knew who knew about music.
29:48 --> 29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:49 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So we invited me on and best said in that in that interview that he's neither clever nor subtle.
29:58 --> 30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's a wise person who knows their own characteristics, right?
30:02 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's...
30:03 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
30:05 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
30:05 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_00]: But now look, I think what happened was that I found that he was writing music the same way that I've been writing music and so I was able to see...
30:17 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Understand what he was doing.
30:19 --> 30:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:20 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:23 --> 30:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So really what I do is I read what he has to say about his own music and his blog is just so extensive.
30:31 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_00]: He's got one blog entry per episode.
30:34 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_01]: That is the most wonderful thing you have done for me, Philip, has introduced me to that very finely detailed effect I was just reading the one for episode eight, because we have yet to record that for rings and rituals yet.
30:47 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to kind of get myself back in the frame before I even finished my rewatch.
30:52 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So that is a very valuable place for any listeners who were interested in music and rings of power.
30:58 --> 31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: definitely check out Barry's blog.
31:00 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It takes a little while to get to that point, but once you're there, it's so rich.
31:06 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and also what I've done is I've taken screenshots.
31:10 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_00]: He provides little pieces of music.
31:13 --> 31:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've taken screenshots, and I've put them on a word document.
31:16 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I printed them out, and I've got them in a piece of cookie, so that I can just sit down and play them, and say that I can understand them myself.
31:25 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And,
31:26 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Also the way I work is that when I hear things and when I play things on the piano I understand them better and that was when I I was I just played Saron's Ostonato on the piano and we shortly after that that I was watching a scene and it was like that Saron's Ostonato that I'm hearing why am I hearing it in that scene?
31:53 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_00]: and so that's sort of what my podcast is about.
31:59 --> 32:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's filling a niche that I don't think anyone is addressing at this time and I sort of compare it to your episode with John in season one, your music episode.
32:12 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, the way you approached it was sort of the way we're approaching it today, which is let's talk about the character of the themes and what what what they represent and how they played and what instruments and what does that tell us about the person or the place.
32:31 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm looking at is
32:35 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_00]: is when is this piece of music played in a scene and what does the music tell us about what is happening in that scene?
32:44 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Particularly if you hear a theme and that person isn't in view or nobody is speaking about anything.
32:49 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright so why this person is popping up?
32:52 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So, questions for you?
32:54 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Were you one of the bright sparks who figured it out right away?
32:57 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That how brand's theme was sound on
33:01 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I was not.
33:03 --> 33:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay, no.
33:04 --> 33:06 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all right, I didn't either.
33:06 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this, I, but sound a kind of similar, but I, I didn't quite get there.
33:10 --> 33:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't, I have to be honest.
33:12 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can tell you something.
33:14 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I have never trusted Hellbrand, all the Southlands because of the music.
33:20 --> 33:21 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I didn't either for the same reason.
33:22 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what, what reason was that Marilyn?
33:25 --> 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as you said, it's the music.
33:28 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It was all,
33:31 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, that's kind of a melody coming around again and again and again, but it was more than just their suffering because clearly that's one of the things I think we're meant to understand, but do you tell me your reason Philip?
33:51 --> 34:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, my reason is that, you know, I've said this in my introductory episode, bear is walking of a knife-edge of litigation.
34:02 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_00]: He can't use any of Howard Shaw's music or themes, but he can
34:10 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's let shall we say draw our attention to or make us think of those themes without actually without actually playing them.
34:21 --> 34:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what he's doing.
34:22 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, listen there's this is third level knowledge here.
34:26 --> 34:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Go on, Philip, tell us.
34:27 --> 34:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so how does how does how brands then go?
34:30 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Just played on the piano here.
34:32 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I just wanted to say.
34:37 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And what are the first two notes?
34:44 --> 34:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well done.
34:46 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_01]: This is I'm sure you will recognize Howard Shore's theme for The Rain.
34:53 --> 34:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, so it starts with the same two notes.
34:56 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a totally rise, which is so intrinsic and you know he, I can graduate in during the interview on the on the song sung by Fiona Apple at the very end, which is the where the shadows lie and the and the ringvers.
35:13 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I said can I always say to Corey never trust the semi-tone rise and I said isn't that right bear?
35:19 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the congratulations on putting the semitone rise on the word Mordor in the song if you listen to the song you'll hear Mordor, it's that semitone rise.
35:32 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I was, I never trusted how brand all the Southlands and I was onto the Southlands being Mordor extremely early in the show.
35:45 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's-
35:47 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I just did the visual.
35:48 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a scraping hawk and volcano there.
35:51 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's in the south.
35:53 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, it's going to be more thought-edventually.
35:56 --> 36:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But I really like that you did the same detective work using music.
36:00 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That's very cool.
36:01 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really cool.
36:03 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_00]: That's.
36:05 --> 36:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so I look at that.
36:06 --> 36:07 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm doing.
36:07 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm putting music into context and it's showing me so, so many things, like for instance, with the with the kiss scene.
36:20 --> 36:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I love that, tell us.
36:23 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, it wasn't until I was listening to the soundtrack of the episode soundtrack.
36:30 --> 36:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So the episode 6, I think it is DOOM to die, 6 or 7, don't think it was 6 DOOM to die.
36:38 --> 36:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just listening to the soundtrack and I was following the music through and it got up to the big charge of the Elvis Cavalry towards the darkness on the grain field.
36:51 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the music just stops at that point and then suddenly I heard Galadriel's Ostonato.
36:58 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it had Bayes-Wife, Yabro singing, singing the solo of Galadriel's theme.
37:08 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But then just after that, it went straight into Galadriel's Osternata, her pure Osternata.
37:13 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I almost did a double take and thought, you know?
37:17 --> 37:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I've never heard this in the show, I've actually only heard it on that track called Galadriel in the season 1 soundtrack and I had to go back and sort of work out where exactly does this happen in the episode.
37:33 --> 37:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I'm doing.
37:34 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm noticing things musically and then going to look and see where did this happen?
37:40 --> 37:41 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the context?
37:42 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when I
37:44 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_00]: to see the conclusion, if you want to watch my gladrial episode, listeners, that her pure ostinato represents the cheers on the right path, and I think we can all say that up until that point in season 2 gladrial was not on the right path.
38:02 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if she was, she was pursuing it in the wrong way, but listeners' rest assured, Philip has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was not a kissing story.
38:14 --> 38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
38:17 --> 38:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
38:18 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
38:19 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the kind of discoveries I'm making because I'm listening to the music and I'm and I'm questioning it and saying why is that being played in that scene?
38:31 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_00]: What then does it signify?
38:34 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And it leads me to like my valonore episode and sort of like, wow, the different seasons have different themes around each story line.
38:43 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Season one for valonore was
38:48 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And ended up being a dream, literally, four-gladryl, and yet in season two, the story doesn't go to Valenor yet.
38:56 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We get the Valenor theme, and it's really that contrast between cadence, view of Valenor, and pharisons view of Valenor, which is so very, very different.
39:08 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just really interested to know where the Valenor theme is going.
39:19 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_01]: episode tracks.
39:21 --> 39:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And the episode was called candles on the water.
39:26 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought the whole thing was just this, you know, the scene in Nannas Temple.
39:35 --> 39:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I had forgotten that it started with
39:47 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He's sad, he's frustrated, he's angry, he's resentful.
39:52 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the word I want, he is resentful.
39:55 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why that valuable theme is so darkened than does you bring out with the low-based music singing.
40:03 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, listeners, Philip even points out the languages and says, this is crystal, and this is what it means.
40:11 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm guessing you took that from various blog, because I see he does exactly the same thing.
40:16 --> 40:43 [SPEAKER_00]: exactly I'm I'm no expert in tokens languages I'm taking and I know I say a lot of what I what I'm telling you is actually from from bears blog but I put but I put a little caveat on there and just just tell everyone bear doesn't tell us everything so just just be aware of that there's because there's obviously story narrative things that would be spoiled as if they are
40:44 --> 40:47 [SPEAKER_01]: not to mention those NDAs that you brought up before.
40:49 --> 40:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
40:50 --> 40:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
40:50 --> 41:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but what what you said Marilyn about listening to that episode and and hearing that music and not knowing where it fit in, that was what I tried to get across in my introduction episode by saying that like
41:04 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_00]: describing how sound tracks are put together and how actual tracks are put together, and that candles on the tide is a really good example of that where they take the music from two different scenes and just run them together into one track with a little bit of editing.
41:21 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, as long as you are aware of that, I think that the main, I think I've found this out in Howard Shaw's soundtrack, the King of the Golden Hall.
41:31 --> 41:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I was listening to that and thinking, oh, okay, this is the bit where they're entering the hall, this is a bit where they're going, where they're where the the the the the ruffians are fighting them and then
41:46 --> 42:00 [SPEAKER_00]: and then suddenly after the culmination of that theater and it's played the music with theater and Gandalfot outside at all the graves and the symbol moon is seen.
42:00 --> 42:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they went together in the movie so soundtracks run different scenes together into the one piece of music.
42:16 --> 42:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Philip, I was pleased when I first reached out to you to talk about the possibility of doing this episode.
42:21 --> 42:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that it would be sensible to start with a hardfoot, since that is the theme that I have picked in my fellow Laura Hound John arranged for our Reigns of Eccles Podcast.
42:32 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what can you tell us about it?
42:34 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me start with my own observation that it's a song which is very similar to an Algerian woman's song.
42:41 --> 42:56 [SPEAKER_01]: featured on an album by a women's group called Lebanna, and the title of this album is Sojourns, and the song is called Adchef Hent 2 Loss, and no I had to look this up to see how it pronounces because I do not read Algerian or speak it.
42:58 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_01]: but it's that same kind of five-four rhythm, but the melody line is virtually identical.
43:04 --> 43:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So next time you talk to Bear, please, I might be have ask him, if he's ever heard any of the soundtracks of Lebaman.
43:11 --> 43:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess this inquiring mind really wants to know.
43:18 --> 43:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's, yeah, the influencers, um, that that composes have a ideas can come from everywhere and yes, you have to be very careful not to steal someone else's idea, um, but it'll, I think it all depends on how much money you have because some people can get away with that.
43:36 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, since this is a melody that was written by a very small group of women's independence, women's choirs in a very remote portion of Algeria, I really don't think that he has much to worry about.
43:51 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
43:52 --> 43:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so at all.
43:54 --> 43:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Sadly, sadly.
43:55 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think artists deserve their credit, but you know,
44:01 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this goes back to what I said before about how Barry is trying to evoke the thought of how a choice soundtracks, but not
44:16 --> 44:18 [SPEAKER_00]: cannot reproduce them in any way.
44:19 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This is another example of that, because the half of the theme starts with a very familiar run of notes, which is, if I've got my music here, that's right, that's right, it goes with her that before,
44:48 --> 45:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't sue someone I've a three notes and they know that's an important thing because I've always had to teach students I think it's more than four words than it row on your plagiarizing so Maybe four notes to music maybe only three I don't know
45:03 --> 45:20 [SPEAKER_00]: and is in a minor key, not a major key, like the show I think is, but yeah whenever you hear those three bomb bomb, three notes leading into something, it's really relaxing and does
45:21 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_00]: sort of root you with nature as well, I think it's, I think it's just something culturally that we are, that would that we expect when we hear that kind of music.
45:34 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that, that was the first thing that I noticed about it.
45:38 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually heard someone say someone commented to me on a forum to say, yeah, he can, in one particular scene, he can hear the similarity to the shy
45:49 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not, it's now we need a direct Taking of the thing.
45:57 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest difference for me is the rhythm.
46:01 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
46:03 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like a grace note series as opposed to Yeah.
46:08 --> 46:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
46:11 --> 46:11 [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
46:12 --> 46:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Look, I, as I said, I always got a Bayes Bayes block, so I had looked to see what Bayer had to say about it.
46:17 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, Rich, Julian, I'm not sure that I'm pronouncing them, right?
46:22 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
46:23 --> 46:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Dylan, pop.
46:24 --> 46:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
46:24 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So Irish ill and pipes over an accompaniment of small Scottish bag pipes and strong percussion and connection to the natural world.
46:33 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what he's trying to get across with that strong percussion and the ill and pipes and using those instruments.
46:46 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_00]: The distinctive part of the theme is, of course, what you and John landed on, and that is the beat, the irregular beat to it.
46:57 --> 47:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's got a time signature of 118.
47:06 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Take a quick cry right now at the bottom playing something in 118.
47:12 --> 47:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, 11's not a natural number that you want to, that you want to keep count of.
47:19 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously?
47:20 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
47:21 --> 47:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But, alternatively, you can bring that down to 5 and 6, so it has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
47:29 --> 47:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually like to take it even lower than that to go 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3.
47:41 --> 47:49 [SPEAKER_00]: They're latched onto Norris' father, Lago's obsession with wheels.
47:49 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
47:51 --> 47:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
47:52 --> 47:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I was reading a head in the script here and I thought, Oh, this is perfect!
47:57 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it sounds like it sounds like you've got a crack wheel and every time the wheel comes around you have the one-two beat Yeah, and it's that continual and it happens at the same regularity again and again So that's
48:12 --> 48:31 [SPEAKER_00]: that yet bear seems to latch onto something in the script and try and put that into the music so that's so whenever whenever Lago's talking about the wheels and or they're sanding the wheels to make them more regular think about the beat of the harfots.
48:31 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So what bear said about this is that it subtly tells the listener that their simple life
48:41 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a really, really important thing when you're listening to the music and thinking about the harfords and their lives.
48:50 --> 48:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And you and Sarah, Sarah and John had really good conversations about this.
48:56 --> 49:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And it does raise the idea of, well, is there something wrong with harford culture?
49:06 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think
49:08 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's music is not saying that there's something wrong, but he's drawing attention to something.
49:18 --> 49:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's not saying it's wrong.
49:20 --> 49:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just saying, be aware that this, this is here.
49:23 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what their life is like.
49:25 --> 49:32 [SPEAKER_00]: They need to, they hit a dividend the road and something falls off or someone falls off and gets left behind.
49:33 --> 49:35 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing you can do about that.
49:35 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_00]: They have to keep on going.
49:37 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And a few more, a few more miles further down the track.
49:42 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_00]: They'll hit another dividend and someone else will fall off, but they have to keep on going.
49:48 --> 50:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And you have pit upon the very reason why I wanted to start the podcast strings and rituals in the first place was because I immediately understood the context of their culture from their ritual to honor their beloved dead.
50:04 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And the more I thought about it, the more I realized this is a mobile people, this is a migratory people, these are no mats, they don't have cemeteries.
50:14 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: How are they supposed to be in your bed?
50:15 --> 50:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't think they literally left the body on the side of the road, unless they fell into a chasm or something, it was impossible to do anything that they would need to be fitting.
50:27 --> 50:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean they don't care about it.
50:29 --> 50:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean they don't mourn the loss.
50:32 --> 50:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And so their culture comes together like a wheel around this ritual of mourning those who have been lost.
50:45 --> 50:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, exactly, but there is a development of the theme later in the season, which I haven't heard anyone talk about, and actually bad doesn't draw attention to this in his blog.
50:59 --> 51:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Really?
51:00 --> 51:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he really, he doesn't.
51:02 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_00]: There are lots of things.
51:04 --> 51:04 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to read to him.
51:04 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_01]: See, see?
51:05 --> 51:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, intelligent clever, you are a bear.
51:08 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think sometimes he's really, really busy because he's doing the entire score, he's not outsourcing it to his production team, Sparks Chadows, who have done things like the soundtrack for the Percy Jackson series, that's none of my Sparks and Chadows and Bear will do things like, right, the theme and then hand it off to his orchestrators and they will put the whole thing together.
51:35 --> 51:51 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, see, I'm going to be doing a podcast on the upcoming season of Percy Jackson, and I love the series and I love the theme, and it's amazing how many of the streaming series that I really enjoy.
51:51 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_01]: have bears music on them.
51:53 --> 52:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I jolly made that connection again tonight looking at his blog and saying, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, he even did music for the agents of shield.
52:01 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a long way back for me.
52:03 --> 52:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's something about that music that really, really speaks to me anyway.
52:10 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, but yeah, just just be aware that I mean the rings of power is a passion project for it out there and it's like he's writing every single note Yeah, whereas something for Percy Jackson he'll say this is the theme this is gonna be the theme He goes you guys go off and do your worst go and put it all together and make something wonderful and they do they do
52:37 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No, not how John Williams did the same thing for the movie solo.
52:41 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He wrote the theme for solo, and then they handed it over to Michael G. Chino who did the entire score.
52:49 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I think he did the score for that.
52:51 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I know he did the score for that one.
52:53 --> 53:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I remember thinking this is such an amazing John Williams score without it having been written by John Williams.
53:03 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, but it didn't fall into parity.
53:06 --> 53:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't sound like a lazy approach.
53:09 --> 53:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It really felt like a kiss and cousin if you will.
53:14 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And if not a sibling, but, you know, we know that who can lay out where siblings after all.
53:18 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's it.
53:21 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So would you like to hear how the theme develops?
53:24 --> 53:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait.
53:25 --> 53:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Carry on.
53:26 --> 53:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is how I'll just, I'll just play, say you've got the contrast between the two, between the two versions.
53:35 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So any very subtle difference?
53:37 --> 53:38 [SPEAKER_00]: This is how it goes.
53:40 --> 53:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll count, okay, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3.
53:49 --> 53:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's where we got the uneven divot and the cart goes off balance in that one too
53:59 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We hear this development in the growth after the stranger leaves and Nuri says she's going to go after him and help him because that's what you do for people who are part of your group, part of your family.
54:18 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And the harfots really rally around her.
54:21 --> 54:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we lose that
54:25 --> 54:29 [SPEAKER_00]: unevenness, and the theme then changes to
54:32 --> 54:50 [SPEAKER_00]: 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2
54:56 --> 55:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, interesting, interesting, and of course as we learn in this in the season two of Rings of Power, they are more.
55:08 --> 55:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They had been more, and they have reconnected with their earlier history, and maybe coming forward, they will become again even more whole.
55:19 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_01]: What I like about that change, it dances, it's a waltz.
55:25 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_01]: and it's smooth and flowing and you can hear the delight in it this time, not that they don't enjoy their life with, you know, the stumbles and the wheel falling off occasionally, whatnot, but
55:37 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really poignant during saddix death scene, you hear that version then, and it's just so beautiful.
55:47 --> 55:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's sort of like, even though he's sacrificed himself, this is more like what they should be.
55:56 --> 55:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what the music is saying.
55:58 --> 56:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Not that they were wrong before, it was necessary, but they can be more than what they currently are.
56:04 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think...
56:06 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_00]: when we leave them at the end of season one, I think that's the message that that way given, that culture has become richer now because they're taking on more concern for each other.
56:20 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I always love about that scene with Sadoc, after hearing so many of
56:26 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Because members of his community say, we will wait for you, he says the missus will be waiting for me.
56:34 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:35 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning his wife who died several years ago.
56:38 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm joking up now.
56:40 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So we better move on to the stores.
56:43 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't break up all together here.
56:49 --> 56:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, in season two, we don't get any of the harfwoods theme at all.
56:53 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_00]: We get lots of Norris theme.
56:55 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Norris has her own theme.
56:57 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_00]: We get lots of hers.
56:58 --> 57:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And even when Poppy joins them, we don't get any callback to the harfwoods theme at all.
57:05 --> 57:11 [SPEAKER_00]: but when they do meet the stores, we hear the similar patterns.
57:11 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've always talked about the ostinato which can be in a beep and we heard that a lot in the in the harfots because with all percussion to give us that connection with nature.
57:25 --> 57:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But we hear the same beat.
57:27 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I was actually playing
57:30 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is actually the same, it's the different notes, but it's the same beat.
57:34 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So in the half, what's we get a, and it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
57:50 --> 58:00 [SPEAKER_00]: When the stores arrive, we get this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, which really confused me.
58:07 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And just to note stuck in here, too, for listeners who aren't just familiar with terminology, you just turn to perfect demonstration of what an ostinato is.
58:15 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a few notes that are repeated in the same pattern over and over and over.
58:20 --> 58:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a Finnish American, and I've always loved the music of Sebelius, and he is famous for long passages of ostinato, which is wonderful for the listener.
58:30 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_01]: gets kind of boring if you happen to be in the second violence and you're going do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do for literally forty some bars so fortunately yostinados are never this long enough in bears music but yeah yeah it's a good it's a interesting technique and can create a lot of emotion and mood with it
58:54 --> 59:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So of course, I was listening to the same pattern, we've got that same pattern, we've got that same rhythmic pattern, even though they are different notes, of the five-the-patten with the stores that we had with the half-words, but the half-words had a five-and-a-six-beat.
59:11 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was listening for the same kind of thing with the stores music, and I didn't find it.
59:21 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Not deficient, but the stores could be more, the sorry that the half-wits could be more, and that was demonstrated by evening out to six-beat, six-beats, for the half-wits.
59:32 --> 59:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not hearing that with the stores.
59:34 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't I hearing with it?
59:35 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Hearing it.
59:36 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where...
59:38 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_00]: analyzing the music brings in you analyzing the whole of what you are presented with.
59:45 --> 59:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just the music that I'm analyzing, I'm analyzing everything here as much as much as I can can take in.
59:51 --> 59:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what the conclusion I came to was that
59:56 --> 01:00:11 [SPEAKER_00]: This is where the half-woods actually belonged, this was their point of origin and this has been a stable society for so long until the dark wizard comes in at the very end.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So, maybe the five-beat pattern is the natural rhythm for the half-foot's and the six-beat pattern is a deviation.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:31 [SPEAKER_00]: This is sort of thing that music does for me and opens up these questions that everyone else can go and discuss.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my first thought was,
01:00:37 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps there was yet a third version of the theme, which we haven't heard yet, but both the harfwoods and the stores have deviated from.
01:00:50 --> 01:00:58 [SPEAKER_01]: because the stores remained absolutely at their home, their literal home in place, and the harf was wandered.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But is there a middle ground in there somewhere?
01:01:02 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps I see that you're suggesting we're hoping to hear a fellow hide theme in the future?
01:01:08 --> 01:01:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the fellow hide theme will give us some clues about that.
01:01:13 --> 01:01:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe I don't think it'll be season three.
01:01:17 --> 01:01:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably four.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, four or five.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we've been told that there'll be no halflings in season three, which agrees.
01:01:24 --> 01:01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and look possibly the fellow hide theme will be an even six-speed theme.
01:01:39 --> 01:01:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they've maybe they split off at an earlier time than the harfoots leaving the store village.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they left thousand years earlier than that.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They said that they left a thousand years ago.
01:01:54 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they're in, or maybe I'm getting this mixed up with Babylon 5.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Often thousands.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't bear in that music, too.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's very electronic, there are some themes, aren't so easily suggesting wishing that electronic music.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, possibly, and they're saying that they left a thousand years ago, they said that in season one, they didn't say it in season two.
01:02:25 --> 01:02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So I imagine that something bad happened a thousand years ago, don't know what, and possibly the fellow hides left another thousand years before that if things are cyclic.
01:02:35 --> 01:02:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe they're closer to Susette than the harfots ever got.
01:02:42 --> 01:03:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine that that we will get into twining of the three themes eventually when the three clans do do meet up and maybe the culmination of that will be when they find Susette and when they find and I imagine that that will be the Shire and we will see in season five the establishment of the Shire even though it is thousands of years earlier than Tolkien put
01:03:09 --> 01:03:11 [SPEAKER_00]: put down in his legendarium.
01:03:11 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and maybe they'll get the rights for bear to, to briefly quote, Howard Shores theme for the Shire.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, but then we have to keep the stores in the Anduin Valley.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll settle in the Anduin Valley, because Gollum's got to pay that,
01:03:30 --> 01:03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I just hope that Poppy and Maramak don't give birth to a son named either D.I.G.
01:03:37 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: or Smeagle.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe they give birth to children who then have children that are, you know, it's named whatever.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so your listeners have a preview into one of my future episodes.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So I will be doing an episode on the hardful theme and the store theme.
01:03:57 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where they'll be the same episode or different episodes.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I like to take things slowly.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
01:04:03 --> 01:04:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
01:04:04 --> 01:04:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So you mentioned the valinore theme earlier, and that is thus far my single most favorite theme.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I use it as a soothing,
01:04:12 --> 01:04:19 [SPEAKER_01]: in my own mind whenever I'm feeling a little anxious and what to just calm down a little bit.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And you've already put out a wonderful episode on the valenor theme and I certainly urge people to listen to it.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have anything to say before we move into anticipation for season three about
01:04:42 --> 01:04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: like Bear talks about the two different chords, the two different chords being polar opposites and further it's further to part that they can be.
01:04:54 --> 01:04:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So the G chord up to the up to the
01:05:01 --> 01:05:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Those two, from those two chords, one to each other, can't get further away than those two chords are because that D flat major is D flat as half way in between the bottom G and the top G.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's something really, so I understand what he's doing, but at the same time there's something really discordant about that, and Western music has a fascination with that.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And whenever there's like, do you have a low, the devil or with the deck and pose?
01:05:38 --> 01:05:40 [SPEAKER_00]: and it's called a tritone.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So, so, I just think there's something else going on with the theme that we don't know yet.
01:05:50 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine, as I said in my episode, I imagine that that tritone, those tritone chords will be the basis of the confrontation between Numinor and Valinor.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, and here we see that yet again, the devil is in the details.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:28 [SPEAKER_00]: exactly right exactly right and they are polar opposites and humans do not belong in the valanore um yeah and that's shown very very clearly uh to us through through Tolkien's writings even though Frodo and Bilbo uh they bend the rules for Frodo and Bilbo to go to to the valanore in the very end.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:30 [SPEAKER_01]: My special grace yeah.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so yeah, I'm not sure, not sure, still not sure what to think about the Babylonal theme, but I'm really interested to see how it's going to develop.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And like we need more of those scenes with Farazon that we had in season two of showing his Everest in a way for the gift that men haven't been given or he feels that men haven't been given.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they've been there, they've been,
01:06:58 --> 01:07:02 [SPEAKER_00]: granted much longer life than ordinary men in mid-life.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's going to be an interesting ride, and I'm looking forward to hearing more valenor, even though the story is unlikely to get to valenor until maybe end of season four.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if not, well, I guess it's the end of the very last one, won't it?
01:07:22 --> 01:07:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I always, I was, I still find it odd that Faude's old would characterize this as the elves' taunting humans.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a case of projection on his part.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day,
01:07:46 --> 01:07:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The elves aren't responsible for where these two respective islands are placed.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:52 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the decision of the Valor.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you see, afraid to acknowledge the Valor at all by saying it must have been the elves.
01:08:00 --> 01:08:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You see, trying desperately to maintain that it doesn't believe in the Valor.
01:08:05 --> 01:08:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, looks in the Palantir.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This horrible wicked stone of the Elvish evil magic users are what I mean.
01:08:15 --> 01:08:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, people can be complicated, I guess, as about all we can say for that.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you have some speculations about season three, what is the theme for the season do you think?
01:08:28 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, what I mean by the theme for the season is, and I will do an episode on this in my series.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here to hear your first folks, we're giving you a little bit.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, each season has a theme, a musical theme.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is displayed in the very first episode on the title card at the end of the prologue.
01:08:53 --> 01:08:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we don't get how it's sure opening.
01:08:57 --> 01:08:58 [SPEAKER_00]: in the first episode.
01:08:58 --> 01:09:00 [SPEAKER_00]: We've sold it in season one and one end.
01:09:00 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:09:02 --> 01:09:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So in season in season one, we've got the one that I told you was true creation, but I'm not certain.
01:09:15 --> 01:09:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I went back to have a look in Bears blog.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't hear it called true creation that it's the basis of where the shadow is live,
01:09:27 --> 01:09:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, the elvish, the elvish, magical theme, true creation requires sacrifice.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It pops up in the most interesting places, so it seems to be a multifaceted function, shall we say.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It does.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: After Season 3, I will do a series of episodes on starting there.
01:09:51 --> 01:10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: and showing how bears, how bear describes magic through the music, how that changes and listening very carefully.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, we can discover the most amazing things about like if you know what magic sounds like in the music, then when you hear it in a scene, you can say,
01:10:12 --> 01:10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Magic is actually happening here.
01:10:14 --> 01:10:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I didn't realize that magic was actually happening and I think that's what we lose sight of like in the creation of the three elvist rings at the end of season one We hear there's a theme that bear calls the forging theme.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very it's a very fast ostinato of Notes just running up and down up and down up and down
01:10:36 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_00]: we don't realize that that's actually the sound of magic.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just forging in a material sense, there is magic going into these items.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:49 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Elvis magic.
01:10:49 --> 01:10:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we hear this music, we need to understand there's real magic happening here.
01:10:57 --> 01:11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to put something to you because we've talked in both seasons 1 and 2 and rings and rituals about the difference between magia and goatia.
01:11:08 --> 01:11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: These are two forms of magic.
01:11:10 --> 01:11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Magia is what Gandalf does with the elf to its craft.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not domination, but it is using your abilities to the affiliation of creation, if you will.
01:11:27 --> 01:11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So in that sense, it is, you know, quote unquote, good magic if you want to characterize it that way.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Goatia is domination.
01:11:37 --> 01:11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Goatia is sauron's business.
01:11:40 --> 01:11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I find fascinating in this,
01:11:44 --> 01:11:47 [SPEAKER_01]: The elvish rings are clearly healing.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You'd see the expect they have on the tree.
01:11:50 --> 01:12:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, they are also a form of machine because they are designed to preserve in a mortal world, which was created to decay.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So I put that out to you and see with your subtle hearing of it and your ability to parse this so beautifully.
01:12:11 --> 01:12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we start to hear intimations that may be the Elvish magic is becoming a bit more like Southeron's magic?
01:12:21 --> 01:12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is in terms of actual like magic being used or like I am doing something which is creating a magical effect in those terms, yes, we're definitely hearing that in the music.
01:12:41 --> 01:13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: That will be a very interesting thing to see how the character, the Daniel Wamen plays, how it develops the season in season 3, because we have heard in interviews he is talking about the Gandalf that we know about inspiring people and looking to hope.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: He's talking about that aspect in interviews.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really interested to see how we're going to hear that in the music.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't hear it in that those chords which I played you a little while ago, the generation, because they're actually the tri-tones as well.
01:13:20 --> 01:13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Anytime I hear that theme, it's creepy.
01:13:26 --> 01:13:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, oh, it's creepy.
01:13:28 --> 01:13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Look out, what's going on here, folks.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: exactly.
01:13:32 --> 01:13:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's going to be really interesting to hear how Bear approaches that inspiring of hope.
01:13:40 --> 01:13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's already written a hope theme.
01:13:42 --> 01:13:49 [SPEAKER_00]: We heard it at the very end of season two with the final destruction of a region.
01:13:49 --> 01:13:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I think when Poppy is having her monologue and we see as we see the montage on images, the music that we get there is actually hope.
01:13:59 --> 01:14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I will listen very carefully to that because I haven't gotten quite to that point yet in an episode 8 in my review of it, we won't be recording that final episode on Rings and Mitchell's for until a week after next, so all kinds of lovely things to look at.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, so yes, and I think you pointed out to me that in both seasons, that opening little light motif that we get on the title, the rings of power, is actually played in its fullness.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_00]: at the end of the final episode in the final credits.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So in season one, we got those little, those few chords, and we got where the shadows lie sung by Fiona Apple, which is a development of those chords.
01:14:47 --> 01:15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: In Season 2, we got the few strains of no or matter, which means brave warrior, and we got a full heroic version of that in the final in the final credits of Episode 8.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's my burning question.
01:15:02 --> 01:15:06 [SPEAKER_00]: What's going to be the musical theme for Season 3?
01:15:07 --> 01:15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, of course, we know a little about what they're going to include in that.
01:15:12 --> 01:15:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the time compression
01:15:15 --> 01:15:27 [SPEAKER_01]: get based upon the images I've seen, it seems like it's the Sauron show, the Sauron forging the one ring show, basically, and so all of these are the things that are andcillary.
01:15:28 --> 01:15:33 [SPEAKER_01]: People are called the Nesgnagol ring rates already.
01:15:34 --> 01:15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that they've even gotten their rings yet.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that Sauron would risk giving them to them until he'd made his one, to be sure that they will rule over the nine.
01:15:48 --> 01:15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, now that that will be interesting, I think there are four or five so far that we have seen.
01:15:56 --> 01:15:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've seen a bunch of them.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, but but not not not not not all nine So so I think one of the most interesting stories is who of the characters that we know are destined for one of the rings for men Well, we all have our favorite Ballant of our favorite Hope possibilities, don't we?
01:16:18 --> 01:16:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We do another interesting question I have music wise is I don't think I write this on on the program is the end of season one and I Complimented bear on this I said in the final scene in season one of the forging of the three over shrinks.
01:16:36 --> 01:16:37 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no dialogue
01:16:38 --> 01:16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, you, you've carried that with your music.
01:16:42 --> 01:16:49 [SPEAKER_00]: That was, that was, and it's such an amazing piece of music when, when you listen to it or watch it.
01:16:49 --> 01:16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Just just be aware, when you watch that scene.
01:16:51 --> 01:16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: No dialogue at all, music carries it completely.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm wondering whether we're going to get the same thing with the forging of the one ring.
01:16:59 --> 01:17:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine how powerful it's going to be if there's no dialogue.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: All we get is the visuals, the sound effects, and the fantastic score to bring it home.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:12 [SPEAKER_01]: That could be stunning.
01:17:13 --> 01:17:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You think perhaps they are going to end with the final completion of the one ring?
01:17:17 --> 01:17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
01:17:19 --> 01:17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think I've heard if my memory is correct.
01:17:25 --> 01:17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think will be the culmination of season three.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, it certainly makes a lot of sense, and I definitely have not been creeping through all the corners of the inner webs to get every single piece of information.
01:17:38 --> 01:17:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I only know what crosses my path and the various discord channels that I lead to.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So forth.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that would certainly be a dramatic culmination, wouldn't it?
01:17:49 --> 01:17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And more or less a midpoint of all, well, not quite because there's only five seasons, I'd say.
01:17:54 --> 01:18:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, other things I'm waiting for is to, is to hear those B themes, particularly Galadriel's B theme, which is not being, you can hear it in her track in the season 1 soundtrack, but we've never heard it in the show.
01:18:11 --> 01:18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and, and I,
01:18:13 --> 01:18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be about her relationship with Kelli Bohn, but if it was, I would have expected to hear it in that scene in with you when she revealed, hey, I'm married, I've got a husband and I said, and everyone's complaining about that.
01:18:30 --> 01:18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: where did that come from?
01:18:33 --> 01:18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I would have if it was going to be about KELOLAND I would have expected it to hear it there but I didn't but you know that's that's the interesting thing about the score is they change and develop as the project itself develops.
01:18:48 --> 01:18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe like Ben you exactly what the B theme for Sarah on was he wrote it with the intention of it being the
01:18:59 --> 01:19:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not always the case.
01:19:02 --> 01:19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Composers don't necessarily know they just have a piece of music and development that all sounds good together But then when you get to the actual scene You then make a decision.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is what this this particular bit means.
01:19:17 --> 01:19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I've I've got a piece of music that I wrote in that way for the house of had all
01:19:22 --> 01:19:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I wrote it, when Hadel was a character, these, this is the music that I imagine that this character and his family will have, but when I got to some scenes, exploring some scenes for Huren, which were very personal scenes, I found that I was attracted to one little variation of the music that I had written, and so that little piece of the music I now called The Heart of Hadel.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, nice, lovely, that's lovely.
01:19:53 --> 01:20:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We did chat a little bit about how to do on Bronwyn's theme, what do you think might happen with that?
01:20:02 --> 01:20:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's an interesting one because by the end of season two, I mean, obviously we've lost Bronwyn, but we still have the theme and it's been heavily associated with Arande.
01:20:13 --> 01:20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And he still carries that theme.
01:20:17 --> 01:20:18 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lovely theme.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also been passed on to Theo.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I just read that in Bears Blog this afternoon.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems that Theo has inherited his mother's theme as well as her skill in healing.
01:20:31 --> 01:20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly right.
01:20:31 --> 01:20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So is that going to be confusing for the audience to hear the same theme, the CSEA to with both Arande and Theo?
01:20:38 --> 01:20:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't imagine that their paths are going across this season.
01:20:44 --> 01:20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have nothing to base that on, just the thought that Arande is now embedded with the Elvis Charmys.
01:20:52 --> 01:20:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Theo and the refugees from the Southlands are clearly
01:21:00 --> 01:21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: huge mountain range in the middle of the white mountains, which you are actually fairly close to, I believe.
01:21:07 --> 01:21:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And what mountains in the real world?
01:21:09 --> 01:21:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes indeed.
01:21:10 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Right there in the borders with the hamster.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it could be that he's going to use different instrumentation.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I've noticed he's already doing that.
01:21:19 --> 01:21:29 [SPEAKER_01]: For Brown, when it's almost always been the single woman's voice, whereas with El Rondeo, we're now hearing more martial prowess instrumentation.
01:21:29 --> 01:21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're brass or more prominent when his iteration of the thing comes through.
01:21:34 --> 01:21:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe Theo will get his own instrumentation for it as well.
01:21:39 --> 01:21:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very effective way of doing that.
01:21:43 --> 01:21:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of instrumentation, I really want to know what happens with Aarion.
01:21:49 --> 01:21:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I have hope for her, and I plan to do an episode on this.
01:21:52 --> 01:21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I plan to do so many episodes.
01:21:53 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know whether I'll get to do them all.
01:21:56 --> 01:22:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I have hope for Aarion based on her music.
01:22:01 --> 01:22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
01:22:01 --> 01:22:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
01:22:03 --> 01:22:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:22:03 --> 01:22:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Because when we first meet her, we hear a rendition of what in the soundtrack is called El Rond and Isalduha, but it's really the faithful theme.
01:22:15 --> 01:22:16 [SPEAKER_00]: It develops into the faithful theme.
01:22:17 --> 01:22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So you mean, El Rond and Isalduha?
01:22:20 --> 01:22:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Elendalent.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You said El Rond, that's why I was looking for you.
01:22:24 --> 01:22:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
01:22:24 --> 01:22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Carry on.
01:22:26 --> 01:22:26 [SPEAKER_00]: My mistake.
01:22:26 --> 01:22:27 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I started with.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Fancy confusing talk it.
01:22:33 --> 01:22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It will start with EL, come on.
01:22:35 --> 01:22:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all right, they're stars.
01:22:37 --> 01:22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Every live star is a kid should be a little more creative.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Jerry, a lendal and isldo-a-them, which becomes the faithful theme.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Now when we first introduced to a Aryan, we get a rendition of that theme played on a flute.
01:22:55 --> 01:23:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really beautiful as she's greeting Isldo-a and his friends as they come in on the beach there and greet Barrett rather than her.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very light, but because that's how I don't believe that.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_00]: that it was just used to identify her as being Isldo's sister and part of Elendil's family, I believe that at her heart she is faithful because of because that's how her music presented her.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you've got to remember that Bear talked to the showrunners about where all these characters, what their story arc was going to be.
01:23:37 --> 01:23:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So he hasn't been musically
01:23:41 --> 01:23:42 [SPEAKER_00]: their final fate.
01:23:42 --> 01:23:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he knew that he knew that the relationship between Hellbrand and the Sauron before the actor did.
01:23:51 --> 01:23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, that's right.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It took several episodes before Charlie Vickers was hailed as Lord Sauron and it was game is news to him, I think.
01:23:59 --> 01:24:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I can give you some hope for a audience because for a very small clip of a scene from one of the trailers that lasted maybe five seconds that were two people galloping on horses on a beach.
01:24:12 --> 01:24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: one of them was almost certainly a woman and she was dressed in one of the audience's favorite colors.
01:24:18 --> 01:24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So it really looked to me like an audience was galloping behind.
01:24:24 --> 01:24:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It looked like it was Ellen Dill but it could have been somebody else.
01:24:26 --> 01:24:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:24:27 --> 01:24:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that you know, take that in hope.
01:24:31 --> 01:24:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I can say hope is never meager even what it is mere.
01:24:38 --> 01:24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: and with the character, the new character of Manuk, the Ork, who I've heard pointed out he is wearing the breastplate that belonged to Adam.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my, that's interesting.
01:24:52 --> 01:24:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to know, is he going to be associated with Adder's musical theme?
01:24:58 --> 01:25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought we weren't going to hear any more of it, but I think this is a really interesting development, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we hear that in relation to Manuk.
01:25:13 --> 01:25:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have heard lots of things about who is this character and how trustworthy or otherwise, which of course, I've been afraid we all ask about any work we encounter or Uruk.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how long will it be before they drop the Uruk and South and says, no, you just doorks, so cut it out.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Although technically, he did eventually make his own Uruk, but I think that was more along the lines of the third age rather than second.
01:25:41 --> 01:25:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I'm really, really excited to hear any new thematic material.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: As you said, you can get a little bit over gladruel's theme, if it is played too often, but new thematic material.
01:25:58 --> 01:26:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Even for things like gladruel's theme,
01:26:01 --> 01:26:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of these things I'm finding out as I'm preparing my episodes and doing analysis, we only heard Gaudadriel's full-same twice in season one.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was in the opening scene with her conversation with Finrot.
01:26:19 --> 01:26:22 [SPEAKER_00]: We heard it from beginning to end of that main A theme.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't hear it in its full version again until the final episode.
01:26:30 --> 01:26:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, no the final episode of season two two yeah season two.
01:26:35 --> 01:26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I put season why that's what book n season one and two to say and no other time even with the really heroic bit in sailing for the dawn
01:26:47 --> 01:27:02 [SPEAKER_00]: In the middle of season one, you think you're hearing the full A theme, but it cuts short by only about three notes, and instead she goes into that handshake with Hellbrand.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
01:27:03 --> 01:27:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:27:04 --> 01:27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's sort of like, you don't get your full representation.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to take that from you.
01:27:18 --> 01:27:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that I'm also looking at that kind of detail.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That's just because I think when if a person can't complete their own theme, it means that they don't have all of the power.
01:27:33 --> 01:27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not completed yet either.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if they just give me different orchestration, I would be happy.
01:27:40 --> 01:27:57 [SPEAKER_01]: although, you know, flutter or horn either way that that seems to be the two most favorite ones, but you could, they could offer us more variations of it as we've been discussing with so many of the themes and the variations are part of what create those or support those character arcs that we're seeing.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So speaking of character arcs, there's another shot that I saw from the Amazon rings of power video drop called familiar faces, which was just cuts of different actors in full costume and makeup and everything, which was really nice talking, you know, for maybe 15 seconds each about their roles.
01:28:18 --> 01:28:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw a shot of Kierradan in full battle armor with his hand on the hill to this sword and wow did that feel odd to me.
01:28:27 --> 01:28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that's not the Kierradan I know and love and I'm just wondering you mentioned that his theme when we saw him in season two was tied very closely with Falanoid.
01:28:39 --> 01:28:41 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it pretty much was the Falanoid theme.
01:28:41 --> 01:28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Wasn't it didn't have his own at that point, right?
01:28:44 --> 01:28:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just wondering if we might get a new Kirdon with Nautia theme or something.
01:28:50 --> 01:29:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is some, like, if they pay particular attention to the three all-vish rings, we've had a bit of attention on Naria with with Galadriel, we've had almost nothing with with with Kyrton or with Gil Gallard about their relationship with their own, we had a little bit with Gil Gallard and his visions.
01:29:16 --> 01:29:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we haven't had anything specifically about the ring.
01:29:19 --> 01:29:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So that would be nice to get, like, this is Galadriel's relationship with her ring, this is keyed, and this is relationship, this is Gil Gallaud's relationship with his ring.
01:29:28 --> 01:29:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That would be nice.
01:29:31 --> 01:29:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but at this, at this stage, I don't imagine that we'll hear the valanore.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the valanore theme is, I don't think you can say that.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It is kidn's theme, but it is his focus.
01:29:46 --> 01:30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think I don't think it will we'll hear that again until after he is no longer custodian of that ring and he can sit down once again and gaze west and that's when we'll hear it again.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're right because
01:30:04 --> 01:30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: the three are tinsed with that tritone, you know if they have this sort of slight eyebrow raising moments to them.
01:30:14 --> 01:30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Even with the scene where the tree is renewed is gloriously beautiful and I got almost forgiven for the way they mangled with the understanding of what valine over really is.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a good conduct prize.
01:30:27 --> 01:30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's every elves right and oh by the way yeah
01:30:34 --> 01:30:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Take it as red.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: They've interpreted it differently.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is their show and they're, you know, they're showing us new facets on the story that we all know and love so well.
01:30:52 --> 01:30:56 [SPEAKER_01]: not just allowing their wares to do things, but affecting their wares.
01:30:57 --> 01:31:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I do know that in the texts, Tolkien said something about whenever Galadriel wore Nenia, her yearning for valiant autumn creases.
01:31:10 --> 01:31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So this could be something that happens as well.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But thus far they only seem to be using it as a profoundly powerful tool for healing, which is fine.
01:31:20 --> 01:31:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no objection to that for sure, but I like the way the music is still to some degree weaving the uncertainty.
01:31:29 --> 01:31:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't just Elrond.
01:31:31 --> 01:31:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, at the beginning it was all Elrond was suspicious in there for we had to be.
01:31:34 --> 01:31:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Kira Dunn comes in and says, ah, perfection has come to Newman,
01:31:40 --> 01:31:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, except a little earlier, you said perfectionally exists in Valley Noor.
01:31:46 --> 01:31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's that all about, you know?
01:31:49 --> 01:31:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope Bear is going to play with all these thoughts musically, I think he could come up some wonderful stuff.
01:31:56 --> 01:31:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think you will.
01:31:58 --> 01:32:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And my takeaway from that scene is that the elvish rings are untouched and they don't bear any of Sarah's malice.
01:32:10 --> 01:32:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Although we'll point out a little visual flaw in that, you know, back in
01:32:16 --> 01:32:34 [SPEAKER_00]: a season one episode eight alloyed when there's a scene where Kelly Bremble actually places the lump of methyl into Halbrand's hand and he looks at it and gives it back to him.
01:32:35 --> 01:32:39 [SPEAKER_00]: He has touched technically he has touched.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so much for his hands never touched them.
01:32:42 --> 01:32:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And at the end of the day, they are still machines.
01:32:48 --> 01:33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: However, skillfully crafted, however beautifully wielded, whatever their intentions, they are still exerting a desire to preserve and put on in a place where it's not the natural order of thanks.
01:33:06 --> 01:33:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
01:33:07 --> 01:33:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
01:33:08 --> 01:33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, but look, in terms of the show, I'm finding it is, uh, really subtle in how it delivers things and, um, people will find out in my next couple of episodes exactly how subtle it is.
01:33:25 --> 01:33:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:33:26 --> 01:33:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and every, every glance, every,
01:33:33 --> 01:33:53 [SPEAKER_00]: word uttered or half uttered conveys some meaning there is nothing accidental about this show everything is deliberate yes and when people realize that more I think we're going to find a lot more hidden things in there yes yes and the music's only one part of that
01:33:54 --> 01:34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Philip, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your knowledge and your analytical skills and your attention to detail.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I suspect that our listeners will be paying a lot more attention to the music in season three now.
01:34:09 --> 01:34:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for that.
01:34:12 --> 01:34:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's it for this bonus episode, which I think is set a record for the longest episode we've ever done on rings and rituals for very good reasons.
01:34:23 --> 01:34:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, please feel free to write into the usual places, but I'm afraid we will not be reading any more feedback on there at this point.
01:34:31 --> 01:34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Nevertheless, we would still welcome it at Rings and Rituals at TheLoreHounds.com, or on TheLoreHounds Discord server where we have a special channel set up just for Rings and Rituals.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Fill up if they wish to get in touch with you or to subscribe to your new series, what should they do?
01:34:49 --> 01:34:52 [SPEAKER_00]: you can find me on YouTube.
01:34:52 --> 01:34:55 [SPEAKER_00]: My channel is called Philipsome Film The soundtrack.
01:34:57 --> 01:34:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also on Blue Sky.
01:34:59 --> 01:35:03 [SPEAKER_00]: My handle is at Glow-Round.
01:35:03 --> 01:35:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I chose the book of Lost Tales version of the name because like no one knows about Glow-Round.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:11 [SPEAKER_00]: He was first.
01:35:12 --> 01:35:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also involved with the Australian Tolkien Fellowship, we're called Hurn N'Rath, which is the Southern Lands of Middle-earth.
01:35:22 --> 01:35:27 [SPEAKER_00]: You can find us on Facebook, Sydney Tolkien Fellowship has a Facebook page as well.
01:35:28 --> 01:35:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we're actually in the process of, uh, designing, um, logos and we've got, I've got a logo in the works which has the, like, like, Tolkien's heraldic devices, but it has lovely house, the Opera House in the house.
01:35:44 --> 01:35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, how perfect.
01:35:46 --> 01:35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: See, he's even a designer folks.
01:35:48 --> 01:35:51 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll, we'll do our best to put all that information into our show notes.
01:35:52 --> 01:36:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So check that out on the brings and rituals, podcast information, but on the lower-hounds website, there will also be a contact form and a voicemail feature.
01:36:03 --> 01:36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you do want to send stuff and you could look for the contact us link at the bottom of the page.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, be sure to check out the other affiliate podcasts supported by the Brawian Broadcasting Network, such as Dungeons & Do Rags, never mind the music, and into the West, which is a podcast about the great screen and cinema that have died recently.
01:36:25 --> 01:36:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, don't miss John David Alicia and Jean on the main Lohão's podcast feed.
01:36:31 --> 01:36:39 [SPEAKER_01]: We will definitely be covering season three of rings of power even though we're not quite sure yet just how we're going to handle that first for episode drop.
01:36:41 --> 01:36:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can certainly count on us to cover each episode individually.
01:36:44 --> 01:36:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to smoosh them all together like that.
01:36:47 --> 01:36:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So links for all of those things will also be in the show notes.
01:36:51 --> 01:37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks as always to our recording engineer and editor Bob, to David and John our producers, and to John who, as we heard earlier today, arranged our theme music, as well as for all of those who support us along the way.
01:37:06 --> 01:37:14 [SPEAKER_01]: If you would like to be one of those who supports us in the podcast, please look for us on Patreon at patreon.com slash the lower hands.
01:37:15 --> 01:37:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Any subscribers will get access to ad-free versions and many other benefits.
01:37:20 --> 01:37:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time then, remember, it is said by the Eldar that in water their lives yet to the echo of the music of the Inaur more than in any other substance else that is in this earth.
01:37:35 --> 01:37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And many of the children of El Luitar are still unsated to the voices of the sea, and yet no not for what they listen.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And from me, Ellen, Celia, Lumen, or Menteelvo, may Sashaan on the hour of our next meeting.
01:37:53 --> 01:37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Nacamine, until we meet again.