Ch. 3 - Adar

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Episode 3 of Rings and Rituals, Adar from the Pain and McKay series Rings

[00:00:18] of Power. I'm Sara Shieldmadene Rohan. And I'm Marilyn, the Librarian of Rifendo,

[00:00:24] and we're delighted that you've joined us. Today we'll be reviewing what we mean by ritual

[00:00:28] and then applying those concepts to different examples of ritual that we find in this third episode

[00:00:33] of the TV series. We'll explore them using a set of questions to reveal how Pain and McKay depicted

[00:00:39] the cultures that they were adapting to their series. Now be sure to get in touch with us.

[00:00:43] A discussion of two is an adventure but we'd love to have more voices join us. You can email us

[00:00:49] at ringsandritualsatthelorhounds.com or you can join our Rings and Rituals channel on the

[00:00:54] lorehounds discord. We'll include all that information in the show notes. And we also want to say

[00:01:00] that we are a proud affiliate of the lorehounds Barovian Broadcasting Network where you will find

[00:01:05] all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, films, books, video games and other stories.

[00:01:12] Our thanks to all the listeners who support the lorehounds through good ratings on Apple iTunes,

[00:01:17] joining the lorehounds Patreon and other forms of donation. If you like what we're doing here,

[00:01:23] consider giving them a boost as well. Okay so before we get into it let's as usual review our

[00:01:29] process. So firstly Marilyn what do we mean by ritual? By ritual we mean a repeated action.

[00:01:37] It's usually intended to recognize and or bring about change. It often has symbolic content but

[00:01:44] not always. I love my teeth but I don't consider them to have much symbolic content. What I do brush

[00:01:49] them every night and every morning and after lunch for as far as that goes. Ritual may be a form of

[00:01:57] meaning making which does not have to be religious or spiritual so fireworks has this particular

[00:02:04] meaning on the this side of the pond than it does from where Sara is on her side of the pond,

[00:02:12] you know depending upon which one you're at it's either Guy Fox or for the July.

[00:02:16] Ritual may create or reinforce communal identity though they're also solitary or personal rituals.

[00:02:25] Often ritual gives structure and meaning to the unimaginable and may include

[00:02:30] humor which can help one to bear the unbearable. Right so we'll keep these points in mind as we

[00:02:35] describe each ritual and then we'll ask questions like these what is the design of the ritual,

[00:02:42] what is the intent of the ritual, what is the outcome and most particularly, what does that

[00:02:47] ritual tell us about the culture and the individuals in that culture? So you can ponder these things

[00:02:54] while we take a quick break and when we get back we'll bring you the meat or the tofu for our

[00:02:59] vegan and vegetarian friends without the quail.

[00:03:01] Welcome back. We're going to review the ritual elements that we saw in this third episode but to

[00:03:14] aid our listeners memories we'll begin each section with a synopsis of events. Now please note

[00:03:19] we are doing full-on spoilers throughout these episodes and if that isn't what you want go and

[00:03:24] binge the entire season and then come back and join us. So beginning our synopsis,

[00:03:31] Aurendo becomes conscious in the work work camp and discovers that many of his comrades from the

[00:03:37] Elvish Garrison and Austeris have been captured as well. Galadriel becomes conscious in the ship

[00:03:43] that rescued her and Albrand. The captain is astonished to have fished one of the elder out of the ocean.

[00:03:50] She and Albrand are astonished at the majesty and the size of the channel and the port

[00:03:56] and Galadriel realizes that they must be in Numenor where it has been many years since an Elf is

[00:04:02] visited. In Queen Maryl's court, Galadriel asks for passage to Middle-Earth but Farazan and

[00:04:10] Miriel seem unwilling to granted. Out on the ocean the Seaguarded to Dets are doing drills on their

[00:04:17] training ships. Isildor hears a whispering voice of a woman while looking out at what is probably

[00:04:24] the sacred mountain, the Mel-Tarnuma. Back on shore, the cadets all chant the ritual call on

[00:04:30] response of Numenor. The sea is always right but Isildork does not join in. Later when Elendil is

[00:04:38] asked by Miriel why he chose to bring Galadriel to Numenor, he replies, the sea put her in my path

[00:04:45] and the sea is always right. What sort of rituals do we see in Numenor than Marilin?

[00:04:53] Well, first off there is a lighting of a beacon and I'm pretty sure that that is when the ship

[00:04:59] returns. I don't think it just randomly fired at the time that the ship was coming here.

[00:05:05] You get the feeling that this is something they do every time and it's probably as much for

[00:05:10] safety particularly at night having to be able to light the passage somewhere but it seems to be a

[00:05:16] welcome back. It does, it seems to greet the ship doesn't it? I think so. Yeah, I think so.

[00:05:22] And so then we have a Numenorian cultural affirmation and what I like to call this is the way for

[00:05:28] those of us who love Mandalorians. In the case of Numenor, their cultural affirmation is the sea is

[00:05:37] always right. Now I'm allergic to absolution to be in with so I'm not exactly friendly to this one

[00:05:44] but there it is so it'll be interesting to talk about what it means. It's usually a call and

[00:05:50] response for the training sea cadets and it starts interestingly with the blowing of a horn

[00:05:56] which reminds me right away of Ulmo who is the sea god, the Vala. It reminds me of

[00:06:03] almost horns the Ulmuri and this is the horn that he's blowing as a signal from them all to

[00:06:08] stand straight and face towards the sea in two lines and say in response to him the sea is always

[00:06:14] right. Later this same saying as we heard is used by Elenbeel to justify saving Galadriel and

[00:06:21] Helmland from the ocean so what's your first reaction to the sea is always right? Well I have a

[00:06:29] question yeah what exactly do they mean by that? What does that mean the sea is always right,

[00:06:36] right about what and how can the sea be always right about so I mean it immediately struck me

[00:06:46] what does that really mean? The sea is always right does that mean that they are embedding this

[00:06:53] notion of the sea being an entity that is almost sentient. Are they linking that therefore to the

[00:07:01] sense of Ulmo the Lord of Waters? Is it the sea itself or is it the Lord of Waters behind the sea

[00:07:09] that is somehow driving decisions of some kind? I mean I just find it an interesting thing to say

[00:07:18] and it is as you pointed out an absolute which always makes me a little bit itchy. Oh yes I'm glad

[00:07:24] we share that characteristic. Yes absolutely yeah but I just that was my first instant reaction the very

[00:07:34] first time I heard this was what do you mean by that? About what is the sea always right? I mean when

[00:07:43] Alendil says that the reason why he brought Galadriel back to land is because the sea put her in his

[00:07:50] way and the sea is always right now I can see that connection there okay so for him that is fate you

[00:07:57] know the the waters of brought Galadriel to him and therefore that is meant to be so we don't

[00:08:05] ignore what the sea gives us or tells us we pick it up from there I get that but other things

[00:08:14] it seems a little less tangible then. I mean was the sea right when it drowned his ill-doers mother?

[00:08:21] Yes this is a good question yeah so it just hmm I found it open ended for an absolute to be open

[00:08:33] and it is something of a paradox isn't it? It is yes which again troubles me. Yeah yeah I think

[00:08:41] the meaning is somewhat contextual too when I hear the cadets saying it what I'm hearing is

[00:08:50] maybe more a version of the sea as a harsh taskmaster or mistress and anytime you make a mistake

[00:08:59] you are responsible you cannot blame the sea for whatever might or might not happen when it's

[00:09:06] supposed to happen and that's part of what they're inculcating into their sea cadets. That makes

[00:09:12] sense yeah because don't mess with the ocean it is way more powerful than you right in significant

[00:09:19] little insect you can't ever cheat it or make shortcuts or anything else and the way they're

[00:09:28] being drilled over and over and over again it looks very repetitive to me in still the body memory

[00:09:35] and so forth but there's still this overarching philosophy of you can't argue with it you know

[00:09:41] you can only survive it as best you can and we're giving you the skills now I'm gonna pull back

[00:09:47] the camera a little bit here and propose the possibility that these things might be vestiges of

[00:09:54] past rituals I think of Carol P. Christ who was one of the four mothers of feminist spirituality

[00:10:03] in her saying that symbol systems cannot merely be erased they must be replaced. Now we're gonna

[00:10:10] talk some more about vestiges of the Valar as we walk around and noticing that initially knowing

[00:10:20] as we do from the texts that the new and audience were initially it's hard to say believers

[00:10:27] of the Valar because it's you don't believe in something you have actually seen you know it now

[00:10:34] the new men audience themselves may not have seen them but they know particularly from the elves

[00:10:39] that these beings exist that Monway exists that it's not a symbolic ritual when they go up the

[00:10:45] middle term or three times a year and the king speaks the prayers and so forth. So at one point

[00:10:53] one could say they were highly religious in this fashion um but I'm wondering if as time went by

[00:11:02] they sort of let go of the deities as they would think of them though we do still maintain a

[00:11:11] connection with Osse and Uinen again if you go to the text we read that the new

[00:11:18] men audience had a particular devotion to Uinen who was a Mayar so a lesser deity if you will

[00:11:25] or a guardian angel some people like to think of them as and listeners will know Gandalf as a

[00:11:31] Mayar as an example there so I never really know if that massive statue in the channel offering a

[00:11:40] waterfall off the top of his hand is Ultimo or Osse and maybe it was once Ultimo and is now thought

[00:11:50] of as Osse but Uinen is even more interesting yeah um I agree actually because talking

[00:11:58] of vestiges of past rituals we know that there were specific rituals in the time of Aldarion for

[00:12:05] example those rituals have been around for a very long time even in his time um that were offerings

[00:12:11] to Uinen like the branch that's put on board of the ship so that it's symbolic of connection to

[00:12:20] the land but it's also an offering to Uinen so we know that there were rituals there

[00:12:26] and this of course is a long long time post Aldarion right definitely you know hundreds and

[00:12:34] hundreds of years Uinen interestingly enough appears in the prison that statue that we see when we

[00:12:43] go into the prison of this beautiful woman with the long flowing hair that almost turns into waves

[00:12:49] um Rairn Z. Avery who was the production designer has has been quoted as saying that yes this is

[00:12:56] Uinen and they speculated that the jail as it is now was formally for lack of a better term

[00:13:04] sleeping quarters for novices you know for new minority and so we really wanted to study

[00:13:09] the lore and and the knowledge of the valod um they would meet together in school of schools

[00:13:18] whatever and then these would be their individual cells for sleeping and meditating and stuff

[00:13:24] and once all of that was no longer being practiced around the same time you start to have more

[00:13:31] and more need for jails I mean maybe it was just people sleeping off right as night or something but

[00:13:36] um here we are the novice quarters have been changed to jail cells and Uinen is trapped

[00:13:43] in the jail along with the prisoners. Not seems significant and symbolic it just says volumes to

[00:13:50] me and so what I'm wondering now is the sea is always right has that statement replaced

[00:13:58] both Uinen and Osay or recognition of Uinen and Osay. Interesting that one of the faithful like

[00:14:07] a lendil would use that place marker instead of yes yes well I think that speaks to his status as

[00:14:18] one of the faithful and I think if you are someone with a secret identity or that if you are

[00:14:27] somewhat counter culture you may use the culture's rituals sayings whatever

[00:14:35] just to not stick out but in your mind you're translating it to mean something else and for a lot of

[00:14:43] people um who might might attend religious ritual every so often don't necessarily believe anymore

[00:14:50] but you know we'll go Christmas and Easter because it pleases grandparents or whatever

[00:14:54] might during the reciting of a regular prayer substitute something else for God if God has no meaning

[00:15:00] for them um that's that's kind of how I might imagine that and imagine a lendil's use of it but

[00:15:07] as you pointed out the painful irony that a lendil's wife and his ill daughter's mother

[00:15:16] was drowned by the sea and to have to chant that on a regular basis um

[00:15:22] it's the first signs we see of his ill daughter's character that he will not say that

[00:15:28] along with everybody else and I suspect that he was if he were discovered in that um there would be

[00:15:33] trouble yes because as we learn later on step outside of the norms in Nuvenor and that's not a good

[00:15:43] thing well I think it's really a good thing in any culture but some cultures are more intense about

[00:15:48] than others I guess we could say yep yeah anything else we want to talk about with that particular

[00:15:55] ritual well I also see this question of uh the saints versus God God replaced by the saints

[00:16:04] um of course in this case they never really do specify connection with Elro except on the

[00:16:09] middle of the cinema but the saints can be closer to home the saints can be more personal

[00:16:18] uh perhaps less threatening um but even now even those saints you know God replaced by the saints

[00:16:27] as Carol Chris said simple systems can't be removed they have to be replaced by something

[00:16:34] and now being replaced by the sias always right right because we know that in this time

[00:16:40] the time of time irielle and our farazan etc that um all of those rituals that the Nuvenorians

[00:16:48] did have of going up the menel tarma and the uh ceremonies that were held up there I think it was

[00:16:55] three times a year wasn't it yes um that those those have gone by the by um now obviously tar

[00:17:02] midiels father so um tarpilantir he tried to re-instigate all of these um ceremonies to do with the

[00:17:14] valar but not particularly successfully no I'd say that being pushed off your throne and exiled

[00:17:21] into the tower is not successful yes i would agree feeling nature's success being that you still have

[00:17:27] your life yes yeah so if we place this episode as best we can into what we know of the time

[00:17:40] that Tolkien actually did right then we do know that at this point there's been a deliberate

[00:17:46] separation of the Nuvenorians from their original connection with the elder and thus to the valar

[00:17:57] um so that is i think really interesting when we put that alongside something like this

[00:18:04] cultural affirmation of the sea is always right um because that totally takes it away from any

[00:18:12] sense of thank you for bringing us home safely to in and or anything like that yeah yeah yeah so

[00:18:19] is there anything else about the Nuvenorian culture as the series is presenting it to us

[00:18:25] from this that we can we in terms of the sea well in terms of the Nuvenorians in general what do

[00:18:32] we know so far yeah i mean we will i think know a little bit more about the tree um because

[00:18:41] the way in which the tree has an effect on or particularly on timetary eland elandil

[00:18:47] um there's a significance there to the tree sure and that moment when we see tar midiel having

[00:18:56] the dream of the ineluctible wave yeah symbolically of course the white tree is destroyed

[00:19:03] right with that wave even in that dream scene um so that's a moment i'm looking forward

[00:19:09] to discussing actually because the tree is so important yeah so i would say from all this

[00:19:14] for a section that um the sea is pretty important to the Nuvenorian culture

[00:19:20] well that makes sense don't you right right that's that is one piece of continuity um from the text

[00:19:26] to the to the series and i also see a certain amount of of rigidity yes um hierarchy i mean

[00:19:38] we saw a lot about the steek cadet drills and things and you know it's all i've always wondered

[00:19:43] for this particular version of the Nuvenorians why are they having what looked to me like military

[00:19:49] drills who's out there for them to fight why are they having a sea cadet you know why do they

[00:19:55] have that at all i mean yes they pick up a random elf in a scoundrel or raft but you know how many

[00:20:02] hundreds of years times you know how many times in a hundred years does that happen i suppose but

[00:20:08] again if we and i'm not sure how much the showrunners were doing this right but if we place it in

[00:20:14] the context of Tolkien's own timeline for Nuvenor in this time the Nuvenorians were empire building

[00:20:22] right on the on the the shores of middle earth right and to do that you need overwhelming strength

[00:20:32] um you know because you are going to face some resistance i mean from what Tolkien wrote there wasn't

[00:20:39] a vast amount of resistance but there was some and the power of the Nuvenorians lies in the

[00:20:46] domination of the sea um but then you got to hit land and then you need people who are willing

[00:20:53] and able to fight so you need to have some kind of army um but that would be an army that would

[00:21:02] always by necessity have to travel by ship so really the right the best thing to have is

[00:21:08] sailors who are also soldiers which is what these cadets seem to be there's certainly being trained

[00:21:14] in a military fashion i would yeah to to my band educated eyes and yeah i suggest listeners put

[00:21:20] a pin in all this um because we will be seeing some military action later i'll just use future

[00:21:28] vision and jump ahead and say i cannot say that i think that they're particularly well-drilled

[00:21:35] or trained or whatever in military at this point and they seem to imply that this is a new thing

[00:21:40] for them so i don't know i might have misinterpreted that uh but yes we shall see we shall see

[00:21:48] and i would love to know to what extent pharazon was instrumental in coming up with the notion of

[00:21:55] the seaguard or if it's been going on for a while before his time it feels well established

[00:22:01] it does doesn't it so probably it's not so much in benedict as he's prepared to take advantage

[00:22:07] of it when the time comes definitely uh we have that conversation that he has with his son who

[00:22:13] i keep wanting to call kevin it really does sound like kevin who has the most tragic hair but

[00:22:20] let's pass over that um he has a conversation where he says you know this is where power lies

[00:22:27] this is what power means yes so we can see that in the character of our pharazon already

[00:22:34] yeah yeah it's classic resource colonization isn't it yes yeah okay we will move along to our

[00:22:42] next bit of synopsis the orcs order the elves to cut down a tree they try to refuse but the orcs

[00:22:50] kill several of them orandir says he will take down the tree but before he begins to chop he touches

[00:22:57] the tree and asks forgiveness right now here we are back in the south lands of course and poor old

[00:23:03] arrondir is a captive of the orcs but this moment with the tree feels very ritualistic because

[00:23:11] obviously he is a silvan elf yes and for a silvan else the the connection with the living world

[00:23:19] is always made very very central um and it's rather a poignant moment i find anyway when he asks

[00:23:29] the tree for forgiveness now this really compares to the memorial trees that the naldoor

[00:23:39] have created so you think i absolutely think so i just i saw his tenderness and his grief and i thought

[00:23:47] oh my gosh and it's an excellent way of distinguishing the naldoor from the silvan elves and in fact

[00:23:55] i'm considering them from this bit really to be two different cultures oh i agree they may be

[00:24:02] you know the same biological creatures but very different approaches to

[00:24:08] life in all its forms and trees in particular so small moment but i think it's it's very

[00:24:18] very pointed and yes useful and and isn't the last time we see arrondir showing his connection with nature

[00:24:28] will come to that moment of course later where he has the seeds yes that he plants but in this moment

[00:24:36] here i think you're quite right to show that this really demonstrates the differences between the

[00:24:44] naldoor whose they do have a connection with the land around them but it's not their focus

[00:24:51] in the same way right the naldoor are very high elves their focus is ruling and the great

[00:25:01] matters of the world whereas the silvan elves seem a little bit more rooted in the earth

[00:25:08] definitely i also think it's the naldoor desire to craft yes and crafting is different isn't it to

[00:25:16] well it is i think you would ship is the word i was looking for that stewardship is an excellent word

[00:25:21] and yes we've already seen that tenderness of arrondir towards nature because when

[00:25:27] uh pranwin first gives him some of the seeds he says so how do you use it medicinal and she'd oh

[00:25:33] well we we picked the petals and we crushed them and he wouldn't say he crushed them

[00:25:38] she says gently it's a great moment but again that that tenderness for nature

[00:25:46] you can tell that he was a gardener even before he tells us that at some point during this series

[00:25:55] would you like to read our next bit of synopsis sure because we are back on numinor

[00:26:03] so galadriel escapes her guardians but is confronted by izildo who offers advice on which

[00:26:10] to steal and tells her that there are stums who still speak quenya in numinor

[00:26:15] and they also once inscribed it on the many shrines to the valar including the one to nienna that

[00:26:20] they are standing near and upon learning of galadriel's interest in the hall of law elandiel takes her

[00:26:26] there on horseback so what do we get in this bit that shows a few more of the rituals of numinor

[00:26:35] well this one caught my eye from the very first because of the shapes of the goddesses or forms

[00:26:44] that were on this altar and it wasn't until again reading this interview of ramsey avery that I

[00:26:53] said no wonder and I asked my partner bob to give me a really expanded view of this image

[00:27:00] it's full of mediterranean goddesses of descent and return and as those who know me will know

[00:27:10] I have a very strong connection to nienna i i really see her importance in the pantheon

[00:27:18] and in the creation altogether really you hide it so well oh i do my best sir thank you thank you

[00:27:25] so here we have one of i gather many shrines although i haven't really i guess i spotted one

[00:27:31] other so far but we have evidence that the shrines were once very important to the numinor audience

[00:27:40] and they were used for personal rituals i don't see a huge crowd gathering around this nienna shrine

[00:27:45] in this it's it's very closely held it's like a passageway that's got open walls on one side

[00:27:52] but solid walls on the other and they think about it an awful lot of grief is private

[00:27:58] yes you wouldn't necessarily want you know the whole square to be standing there watching it while

[00:28:02] you're crying your eyes out or making offerings or whatever um so these different shrines connected

[00:28:08] to a variety of the valloth depending upon the need and since his wife has recently died

[00:28:14] drowning in the sea which supposedly it's always right hmm it's not surprising that elendale is

[00:28:20] familiar with this shrine to nienna who is the value out of grief and warning

[00:28:27] and since she is in fact a vallot but i also see her perhaps almost as a saint of grief

[00:28:34] or possibly a mother of sorrows which is one of the names for Mary

[00:28:40] so i'm wondering if the showrunners picked up on Tolkien's devotion

[00:28:45] to Mary and certainly would have interacted with her as our lady of sorrows

[00:28:52] and decided yeah let's put this in here and use it as a character

[00:28:57] sign for elendale it's like the grief has never spoken of

[00:29:02] but you can kind of see it just again and again these little touches you know

[00:29:07] is illordered refuses to say that the sea is right before we know that his mother drowned in it

[00:29:11] um and clearly elendale knows the shrine knows this place which tells me he has been here before

[00:29:22] so probably abandoned by most new and audience at this point but for those who are in deep need

[00:29:30] and certainly elendale as one of the faithful it's a very tender a tender thing for me and i was

[00:29:37] really pleased that this cultural uh representation statement example

[00:29:46] was one that they chose to to put up there because galavity el is full of grief

[00:29:52] yes sorrow and galley don't i wish that she could have you know three new minority or three

[00:29:57] valarian cures with nana um and a few conversations and so forth

[00:30:04] yeah i just like that's that's what i saw in it i don't did did you have anything else to add?

[00:30:11] um not to that i mean apart from anything else you you are definitely the authority on the end

[00:30:16] no two of us um but i did enjoy that little nod to uh valar is that i've always thought

[00:30:25] as being one of the most important yes yes and people make jokes about her being a buzzkill

[00:30:32] standing off in the corner with a handkerchief and i as you can tell i will admit that it irritates me

[00:30:38] a lot really you never would have guessed right no no no again you hide it so well oh yeah but

[00:30:45] yeah of course she's important um because of what she stands for but let's also not forget

[00:30:55] that she was the teacher of gandalf yes and that is so important um because she's not just some

[00:31:03] weepy woman in the corner she's the representative of not just grief but pity and mercy

[00:31:12] and anyone who thinks that those two things are not at the heart of Tolkien's legendarium

[00:31:18] well i have news for you you know uh pity and mercy are immensely important

[00:31:25] and that's why it's significant that she was the teacher of gandalf yeah and anybody who doesn't

[00:31:31] get that can read Tom Hillman's amazing book on pity power and uh i'm not going to get the title

[00:31:38] right i'm sorry Tom if you're listening um pity power on the ring yeah right and it's interesting

[00:31:45] to me personally that uh what gandalf learned was pity and patience yes not a commodity that

[00:31:52] i have a great deal of all the way do you say that's to exercise it but um the fact is

[00:32:00] it pity or compassion as i prefer does require patience healing from grief requires patience

[00:32:09] you know dealing with people who don't understand the urgency of your quest or whatever

[00:32:16] needs some patience and since gandalf was a fire spirit fire fiery folks need patience even more

[00:32:23] so it all fits pretty well um interesting just to stick with nianna for a minute if we think about

[00:32:31] her origins in Tolkien's early writings right that in fact she was nothing like what he finally

[00:32:40] came up with in fact i mean the nianna that we have is non-judgmental but the nianna she first

[00:32:48] appeared was exactly that she was a judge yes she was where you went when you died

[00:32:54] that's right and he came up with a couple of different ideas didn't he has to exactly how that

[00:32:59] would work but uh the her purpose was to judge and decide what was going to happen to you

[00:33:08] and it was remarkably resembling uh the Catholic concept of heaven purgatory and hell very much so

[00:33:16] in her hall was very dark and very cold and i like to call her the goth persephone because

[00:33:22] she persephone was also at one point my judge in the nianna world so i'm i'm really glad that

[00:33:28] Tolkien took about 30 40 50 years to kind of let her refiend herself open by it was she was the one

[00:33:35] who started weeping even before morgueff started his riffing and went off on his own and

[00:33:44] invented new things because she could foresee from the beginning that a world that was founded upon

[00:33:52] free will was going to contain loss and therefore needed to know how to grieve

[00:34:02] she was responsible for the birth of the two trees and then for the blossoming and fruiting

[00:34:10] of the sun in the moon so yeah i think she's kind of important yes i think so too um i think we

[00:34:18] can get caught up on you know the big four if you like but um nianna doesn't always get the credit

[00:34:26] that she showed no no well maybe we can change that shall i carry on with the next synopsis this

[00:34:34] was a fairly lengthy one so we're back in new man Oregon with hubrand he tries to persuade a

[00:34:44] master smith to take him on and let him show his craft but is told that he must be a member of the

[00:34:50] guild before he is allowed to work iron at lunch several men bully him and he tries to win their

[00:34:56] friendship but you know then as he leaves he takes the guild crest off one of his tormentors which

[00:35:02] isn't a very friendly thing to do i have not so much no and they don't think so either they follow him

[00:35:07] and he savagely beats them and then is locked in jail for his needs kind of terrifying in that moment

[00:35:13] oh that that was one of my worst moments yeah well seriously i suppose at that point i should

[00:35:18] against who he really was but my i came close i said all right he clearly has been strongly influenced

[00:35:24] by that particular entity in the hall of law or galavity will draw this sigil that she has been

[00:35:32] chasing in hopes that the lore master can track it down and explain its meaning she is amazed

[00:35:37] that so much lore has survived and elendil is astonished to realize that galavityl must have

[00:35:43] known elbross and we're talking hundreds of and hundreds of not thousands of years back i mean

[00:35:48] that's going to be pretty mind blowing seriously the lore master provides evidence that leads galavityl

[00:35:54] to recognize that this is a sign for a plan for a new land where in the event of wargoth's defeat

[00:36:02] orcs can live under his lieutenant saueron and galavityl finally feels justified for the last

[00:36:10] couple hundred years that she's been trying to track him down it's a very i told you so moment it is

[00:36:15] it is and the music here ends in very ominous feeling and then transitions to a forest where with

[00:36:25] this ominous kind of very baselo humming we hear laughter and this solemn humming chorus in a minor key

[00:36:33] someone in a magnificent crow costume and others who could be representing wolves are leading the

[00:36:39] harfwoods including a group of young girls who are addressed in straw stucs saddick leads a parade

[00:36:47] of young harfwoods chanting their cultural mantra nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone

[00:36:54] in call and response fashion older harfwoods are carrying food for the feast alone together in their

[00:37:03] cart myrgold is afraid that they'll be left behind because they won't be able to pull their

[00:37:07] cart but largo reassures her as darkness falls nori sneaks into sadducks caravan to try and find his

[00:37:15] book with information about the stars the stranger is looking for with some interruptions from

[00:37:21] sadduck and some aid from poppy nori manages to find a copy of the constellation sadduck reads his

[00:37:28] speech with humor and tenderness to all assembled remembering those that they've lost and promising

[00:37:34] all those assembled that if any of them are to fall behind on this year's migration quote they

[00:37:40] will likewise be will be carried with us in our hearts and in our memories close quote

[00:37:46] remember those lost in the past year sadduck says in life we could not wait for them but here now

[00:37:54] we welcome them to our circle he leads another call and response naming each person and their form

[00:38:00] of death with their response by the people we wait for you i'll just say here and now this ritual is

[00:38:10] the whole reason why this podcast exists yeah i can imagine it is so moving to me it is so

[00:38:18] important it is so redulent with harfoot culture and when i heard people interpreting it in

[00:38:24] radically different ways i said i got to do something about this because there were quite a few

[00:38:33] different ways to perceive this ritual yes there are i i do allow for that for sure

[00:38:40] it particularly if you know nothing about sound in the northwest of Europe right or contemporary

[00:38:46] pagan Braggditz rich you know many people may not right exactly exactly so would you like to take

[00:38:54] off with the description there okay so a lot of the fact that you started with the music

[00:39:00] absolutely because the music really transitions us from a ominous moment for galadriel in the hall of

[00:39:09] lore and then it moves into something very very different obviously one of the most significant

[00:39:17] ceremonies that the harfurt's actually participating so it's um that minor key i think is wonderful

[00:39:26] because you get that sort of ominous sense from numenor but the minor key carrying over into the

[00:39:34] harfurt has that resonance of the sorrow that they feel for those who have been left behind

[00:39:42] and it's you know this is a combination ritual of both mourning and celebration

[00:39:49] right they seem to be able to bring the two together although we will notice of course that for one

[00:39:56] particular harfurt this is a very sad moment because she lost all of her family yes yes poor poppy indeed

[00:40:05] poor poppy um at the the procession seems to me to call back to some real pagan rituals

[00:40:14] absolutely yeah with the the figures disguised as crow and wolf who of course are traditionally

[00:40:20] enemies um and these are animals that are often depicted in a pagan ritual and in pagan texts

[00:40:32] so i found that really interesting particularly at this time of year i mean it's all you could

[00:40:38] just look at it as a harvest festival and it's still resonating and it's a festival about losses

[00:40:46] the people you've lost it's the end of the year so the old year is going um those are also

[00:40:53] what lenses that you could look at it through absolutely um so the young harfurt girls

[00:41:00] with the the call and response nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone

[00:41:05] that's clearly a teaching moment as you know often little songs for little kids can be because it

[00:41:13] repeats and so it becomes a mantra that then they will remember um and they understand the importance

[00:41:22] of that because it's drummed into them continuously and if we think about who the harfurt are the

[00:41:28] fact that they are a wandering people yeah whether they know where they're going that's a whole

[00:41:33] different thing um the idea that particularly one of the youngsters might wander off the trail

[00:41:41] or go off somewhere i mean that's dangerous it's really really potentially dangerous

[00:41:47] and that's how you can keep a nice folks you can't keep a night all of them all the time can you

[00:41:51] especially not these harfurt so it's a you know it's another way of passing down knowledge to the

[00:41:59] younger generation but also instilling in them a sense of this is how things work and they have

[00:42:05] to work this way um so in their way we talked about the strictness of the new manorian culture

[00:42:13] and the way in which things are quite regimented there's quite a lot of that in the harfurt culture

[00:42:19] as well maybe in a different way maybe for different reasons but if you don't have those rules

[00:42:26] laid down then that's how danger is brought to that community and there are community who live

[00:42:33] out in the middle of nowhere who travel along um i mean we don't see any harfurt soldiers do we

[00:42:41] that's not what they do think about when we first encounter them which is after those hunters with

[00:42:47] those weird antlers right i've gone over the hill and the next thing you know there's a bunch of

[00:42:52] harfurt popping them out of the grass and you have no clue they were there but that is of course one

[00:42:56] of their main forms of defense so um when you have a culture who aren't warlike, who don't carry

[00:43:06] swords whose main way of defending themselves is to just hide um and we see that happen a few times

[00:43:13] actually over the series um then you need to instill a sense of this is how we do things and

[00:43:23] we must do them this way and i think because we'll talk about this i'm sure this kind of explains

[00:43:32] the ones we left behind and how that works along with nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone

[00:43:40] right right yeah listening to him describe the what happened to each of the ones who were left behind

[00:43:47] in the past year it really sounds to me as though none of them were ambulatory and most of them were

[00:43:53] dead or unrecoverable so it's not like i mean it's kind of like what happened with Lago he

[00:44:02] here just for foot he heard us for it pretty badly so yes you can still follow us you'll have to go

[00:44:07] to the end of the line but you'll still follow you know you'll still be with us so you you

[00:44:13] accommodate the needs of the individual to the needs of the community right i mean the difficulty

[00:44:19] for Lago and of course Marigold um is that they're not offered any help not all now so bringing the

[00:44:28] cart along Lago can barely walk he certainly can't pull the cart uh and if you're at the back of the

[00:44:35] line you're going to fall behind and fall behind and fall behind and that's going to make you

[00:44:41] incredibly vulnerable if there are any dangers around um i mean i heard a lot of people saying

[00:44:49] oh this this is so brutal you know they should be at the front of the line so that you can always

[00:44:54] make sure that they you know they're that they haven't fallen away and maybe one of the more

[00:45:00] able bodied half-oots could help out and pull the cart but this is not how they do things

[00:45:04] no no it's and it kind of i think sticks in the thoughts of us um those of us who feel that

[00:45:12] society exists for individual this is more you know the individual exists to society

[00:45:20] and it's not i mean it's in no way authoritarian but it's a recognition that for

[00:45:27] the the people to survive the culture to survive that the group as a whole needs to survive

[00:45:35] and yes the group is made up of individuals but it is i think more of a focus on um a weed um if you

[00:45:45] will rather than i yeah and not all of us are comfortable with that idea no no um and i think that

[00:45:56] there were two things about this that kind of hit me and one is the moment where we hear about

[00:46:01] poppy's family yeah which is incredibly sad uh yeah you know when i realized that who sadduck was

[00:46:09] talking about was poppy's family yes oh no they're kind of crept over you didn't that right exactly

[00:46:17] um and poppy just has to accept it because that's the way it is now okay they were lost

[00:46:23] um in an accident and unrecoverable but still there's they just go into the book and then we move on

[00:46:33] because that's what we do right but it is a moment together to honor yeah not just the change of

[00:46:40] seasons and the time of harvest beginning migration but it's all the beloved dead from the previous

[00:46:46] year and that is the essence of any sauan ritual uh sauan spelled s-a-m-h-a-i-n for listeners who

[00:46:52] aren't familiar with you know you've seen it but you haven't heard it and also known by some is

[00:46:58] Halloween um so the notion that the harfwoods who fall behind are carried in our hearts and in our

[00:47:06] memories reminds me of the Jewish tradition which says what is remembered lives

[00:47:11] and if you think about it a migrating society can't have a graveyard right it can't have a physical

[00:47:20] place where you can go and remember and because they are so communal in nature

[00:47:27] the remembering has to be done in community and that's as close as you can come to an actual

[00:47:33] physical space where you can quote unquote go to to remember and they as one

[00:47:43] respond we wait for you we call you into our circle we acknowledge you we wait for you

[00:47:51] oh and what we do that in death as we did not do in life

[00:47:55] we didn't wait for you in life true true we we didn't wait for you in life and now here

[00:48:01] we remember you so the best possible choice and in you know it's like they say when all

[00:48:09] choices are bad choices you might as well just put the coin this is the best choice they can make

[00:48:14] for the survival of all of them but it's not done in a cold way no or it's quite pragmatic

[00:48:21] it's pragmatic it's it's compassionately pragmatic I would say

[00:48:26] yeah and the compassion lies in the fact that to my mind funerals and memorials are far more for

[00:48:34] the living of them they are for the dead and in a sense you could say that it's the harfots like

[00:48:40] poppy who have been left behind and those who have died who are waiting for them

[00:48:47] and I'd ask listeners to put a pin in this one too and remember for a particular incident in the very

[00:48:52] last episode of this series because that's going to come up and this in particular is an example

[00:49:00] of ritual giving structure and meaning to the unimaginable and humor helping to bear the

[00:49:07] invariable because Sadduck is full of humor yes right I mean he doesn't have a joke for every

[00:49:13] single person but every so often he'll bring something up and everybody just starts laughing which

[00:49:18] is I think pretty good memorial practice really allowing for the grief and the laughter

[00:49:29] together so I would definitely say that this is a reflection of a lot of ancient and contemporary

[00:49:35] northern European practices and there may be a lot of us and listeners who have you know gone to

[00:49:43] uh someone rituals and honored their dead or dance ran about fire or even just dressed up and went

[00:49:49] trick or treating you know all those things are connected because harvest time you know you're gathering

[00:49:54] in um hopefully you're not always gathering chocolate although it's the worst things

[00:49:59] absolutely you're gathering healthy stuff too long away and that's what the little girls dressed

[00:50:04] in the in the straw sticks were all about to be which again is interesting because a migratory

[00:50:08] people are not going to be having fields of grain as miracle points out correct and yet there they

[00:50:14] are dressed up in those those straw sticks so you know makes me wonder what uses they have for

[00:50:19] straw but I'm sure they have some because they're very very practical people right means straw makes

[00:50:25] good bedding and um yeah good good fire startings yes good fire starters all of those things

[00:50:32] and the other reflections on the harf woods and just that the calling of the names in that way

[00:50:39] just I had this ridiculous connection with the uh the in-memorium section of the oscars these are the

[00:50:46] ones we've lost this year and there were some uh some people who weren't quite sure they liked

[00:50:53] the new form of presentation this year I will confess I didn't see it so I don't know

[00:50:57] say what it was like last year but uh yeah yeah well but again that is a common cultural thing

[00:51:04] it is to recognize yeah however we do it we want to recognize those who who have died um probably

[00:51:13] a little bit because we hope that we will be recognized too what we die yeah and that also comes

[00:51:20] back to what you were saying about the Jewish idea of what is remembered lives right um because

[00:51:26] that is so true um while somebody remembers who you are then some part of you kind of does live on

[00:51:35] now for most of us who are you know less than famous um really it's when the last person who knows us

[00:51:43] dies then we kind of pass out of memory um if you're very famous for whatever reason

[00:51:51] then obviously it moves on a lot easier that you know you're remembered a lot further down the line

[00:51:59] I mean here we are talking about Jera talking who's been dead since 1973 yeah so you know it's um

[00:52:06] it's definitely an idea that um we want to be remembered because we don't want to be reminded

[00:52:15] of just how ephemeral our existence is yes yes right and I think that's why the wolves and the

[00:52:23] crows lead the whole procession yeah yeah they have to be present and we'll put them at that

[00:52:30] of the line but you know they can get out of the way first and we're all behind them so we can

[00:52:36] keep an eye on them and make sure that they're not gonna get up to anything at least for this night

[00:52:42] tricky crows oh yes but very intelligent I like to get the crows outside my house

[00:52:51] anything else about that ritual for you oh I'm sure there's a lot more but we have more to cover

[00:52:57] so let's carry on okay shall I do the next synopsis yes please okay so we stay with the half

[00:53:05] foot to start off with because the stranger finds the star map and tries to read it but unfortunately

[00:53:11] so that's fire to it instead and so doing reveals himself to the entire camp and also he out

[00:53:18] nori at the same time in consideration of her youth and inexperience saddock is willing to allow

[00:53:23] all the brandy foot or is it brandy feet to continue in the caravan but at the back of the line

[00:53:28] so this really does disadvantage them actually you've got yeah yeah you've got the injury and then

[00:53:34] you've got the fact that they have to go to the back of the line uh and it is a punishment

[00:53:39] well and also you mentioned in this before two things I thought of one they go to the back

[00:53:44] because otherwise they slow down everybody else by by their slower pace but two they're also easier

[00:53:50] to pick off um particularly if they start getting too separated from the from the

[00:53:56] group absolutely yeah and as you know um if there's two people who are being charged at by a lion

[00:54:03] you don't have to be faster than the lion you just have to be faster than the other person

[00:54:08] okay continuing with the synopsis we are back on numinoe arian isildur and ellendil dine together

[00:54:19] and share the news concerning galadriel ellendil and isildur quarrel over isildur's future but

[00:54:26] arian finds out that she's been admitted to the builder's guild galadriel visits hull brand

[00:54:31] in jail showing him a scroll that she found in the hall of law bearing the sigility wears on that

[00:54:37] pouch a galadriel urges hull brand to take up the kingship again because she's convinced that their

[00:54:43] meeting was more than chance uh little does she know and insists that the two of them together

[00:54:49] can redeem their bloodlines oh I speak some a child um so um what do we get out of this one marilin

[00:55:00] well the one thing that i picked out was galadriel statement not fate nor destiny nor any other words

[00:55:07] men used to speak of the forces they lack the conviction to name brought us together in that

[00:55:13] ours was the work of something greater so not a ritual here but this does speak to galadriel's

[00:55:20] certitude which is founded on experience rather than belief that the valaud exist and that they act

[00:55:29] in the world after all she's seen them and probably even walked among them right

[00:55:34] so this does tend to give one an entirely different perspective on things thinking back to our

[00:55:40] earlier discussion of you know manoei being reduced to or ulumovian reduced to osse being reduced

[00:55:47] to a waterfall being reduced to the sea as i was right um glad that he was not going to be reductionist

[00:55:53] about the valaud oh no very much not and i'm interested in your comment about you know what brought

[00:56:01] them together you seem to imply that you have some idea that it might have been a mire but not

[00:56:08] the mire we're thinking of well i mean without dropping enormous spoilers in although really i'm

[00:56:17] hoping that all the listeners have seen this anyway well we warned them we warned them we did warn

[00:56:21] them um what was halbran doing on a raft out in the middle of nowhere yeah really biggest questions

[00:56:30] hmm yes actually i had to chuckle when somebody nicknamed him aqua gorn

[00:56:36] at that point yes i do remember that that was hilarious um but yes and there are red flags from

[00:56:44] the very beginning apart from the fact you know i'm questioning what he's doing out there because

[00:56:50] none of that makes any sense to me also the fact that he quite clearly ditched everybody else and

[00:56:55] separated his bit of rough from the other bits of raft to leave them for the monster so he could

[00:57:01] get away right um so there's there's all of that but you know knowing what we know about him

[00:57:10] i cannot imagine that there was no reason whatsoever for him to be out there in the middle of

[00:57:16] the ocean that's a choice he's there for a reason you know um was he intending to try and get

[00:57:26] to numenor for his own reasons we don't really know enough about his motivations as he yet

[00:57:34] no no even by the end of this series one we don't really understand why he's made some of the

[00:57:41] choices that he has i think it's pretty sure that it's involved with a dar and some kind of quarrel

[00:57:48] between them oh definitely and i read an article in which Charlie vickers said something about

[00:57:57] um he was playing this as saldoron's desire to reform to reject the past

[00:58:07] um you know to to be just another person quote unquote because we know that that actually that's

[00:58:14] canon it is canon the timing is scrui but we know that the timing will be scrui anyway yeah um

[00:58:21] and so i like your idea maybe he was on that shit because he thought he could sort of nudge it

[00:58:26] towards numenor and it could just very well have been southland refugees and he kind of mingled with the

[00:58:32] crowd he didn't do anything to calm the seas or to steer the monster in a different direction or

[00:58:40] any of the things that i might have done if i you know had about uh my our like powers and how could

[00:58:46] he possibly have known a that galadriel was going to be sailing the valinor and be that she was

[00:58:52] going to jump off the ship so maybe they're both right yeah maybe they all i mean it's all

[00:58:59] ron is nothing if not an opportunist yeah of course vickers reading of the characters said he was

[00:59:06] trying to pretend even to himself that yes he was repentant and no he didn't want any contact from

[00:59:15] the valar he did not want to be noticed and so he was sort of self hypnotizing almost i guess you

[00:59:22] could he didn't say that that's my word um as a means of getting away and he wanted to get to

[00:59:29] to numenor because he could be a happy smith there i mean that was almost his first calling

[00:59:36] yes yeah and after allay's smithy um numenor probably has the best i mean there's a smithy

[00:59:43] in erregion of course but i suspect that he knows that hanging around the elves too often would

[00:59:48] probably give him away in the end mose he can definitely fool the numenorians um yeah i mean that

[00:59:57] moment where we see him in the smithy yes and you can see him happily creating stuff yes this is

[01:00:05] definitely trying to convey that sense of sauron in that very brief moment of time where he was

[01:00:13] right attempting to repent right and to do something other than what he had been doing um but when

[01:00:21] we see him foiled before he gets to you know work in smithy when we seem foiled because he wants

[01:00:27] to do this but you have to be a member of the guild and he's not a member of the guild so how do

[01:00:32] I be a member of the guild when you can't tough luck yeah yeah yeah so he resorts to stealing the

[01:00:38] badge and then when he's confronted he just absolutely destroys everybody around him because in the end

[01:00:46] sauron is sauron yeah yeah that is that is a very core feature and and it was just utterly terrifying

[01:00:55] to watch that transformation you know it was i was reminded of it when in okay spoilers go ahead

[01:01:03] two minutes if you really don't want to hear this um in the the final episode when they're on the

[01:01:08] raft together again and you know he's trying to be persuasive in charming whatever and then he

[01:01:12] just gets tired of it all but look on his face changes and he gets the slit i cat eye pupils i mean

[01:01:19] yeah he gets goes kind of terrifying there again too so you're you're pointed out once a sauron

[01:01:25] always a sauron is very well taken but I also think that galavity is not wrong

[01:01:32] I really do think that the valar are paying attention are giving little nudges here and there

[01:01:40] my personal theory has always been that the habits were elders secret plan to fight sauron

[01:01:47] at a third age so i i can make allowances for those kinds of things to be going on as well

[01:01:55] fair enough okay shall I do the finals in obsis go for it okay so in a high tower maryl goes to

[01:02:05] visit her father tarp alantir and tells him that the hour they feared is upon them and zelf has arrived

[01:02:14] the brandy foot still think it should be brandy feet struggle to keep their cart moving in the migration

[01:02:19] and poppy the lone survivor of her family is pulling her cart all by herself

[01:02:26] lago's foot is hurting him a lot and then they discover the stranger is following along with them

[01:02:31] nor he says that he can help them and that they can then help him arondir and all the silver

[01:02:38] elves revolt together and do their best to break their chains and escape and all of them are killed

[01:02:44] except arondir who is taken to adar the orcs form a double line bowing and chanting his name

[01:02:51] but arondir doesn't make out his face before the scene fades okay so we have the entrance of adar

[01:03:01] sort of sort of fish but what i'm what i'm more impressed with is how the orcs respond

[01:03:10] to him yeah i mean clearly he's the big boss normally that means a sense of fear and um you

[01:03:20] just want to kind of disappear when he comes around these orcs are literally forming a double

[01:03:26] line facing inward for him to walk through and they are bowing and grunting respectfully according

[01:03:33] to the captain i know orcs grunting respectfully i did what does that mean we should

[01:03:39] take this i mean how do you grunt respectfully and how do you grunt disrespectfully

[01:03:47] how's that do you know i clearly don't speak orc grunt because i don't know if that was respectful

[01:03:52] disrespectful well i guess it's up to interpretation then okay listeners you can decide you decide let

[01:03:58] us know write us in that uh are really you can aim all of those at marlin no they can't they don't

[01:04:07] have my email so did you ever imagine that orcs would have rituals no not really um

[01:04:16] um we know that there is an orc culture of a kind anyway that we see in those moments in the

[01:04:26] Lord of the Rings but it's a very individualistic culture you know it's it's kind of an every orc

[01:04:32] for itself i mean the the whole thing of are their female orcs is a discussion we could have

[01:04:39] for an hour um but this does seem kind of ritualistic particularly the way in which they line up

[01:04:48] as you said and bow to adar it's like a member of the royal family is is approaching right yes now

[01:04:57] you know we have enough problematic royal family over here without adar um but yes yes absolutely

[01:05:04] um it's not been my sense before that orcs really had much in the way of community they do have

[01:05:15] community um but it is a community of individuals if you like they have rules um but here this is

[01:05:27] totally different um and i must admit that from the moment he appeared adar fascinated me

[01:05:35] as a character oh yeah yeah what i see in it is the showrunners wanting us to understand that

[01:05:44] um this is not your third age work yeah right we're in the second age we're just past

[01:05:52] a big kerfuffle morgue off is destroyed um you know the side of the darkness is in chaos

[01:06:02] and the means of survival is going to vary but these orcs are still closer to

[01:06:10] their origin story if you will i mean all right it's an entire age from that but

[01:06:15] it's still an age closer to that than the third age orcs are so for me it kind of

[01:06:23] gives greater complexity to orcs generally you know one of it one of the criticisms

[01:06:29] is that in Lord of the Rings and the third age basically the only reason for orcs to exist is to be

[01:06:35] killed yeah and that's true in a lot of um speculative fiction that for some reason authors don't

[01:06:44] want to complicate their villains they want them to be just all the piece simple it's good to kill

[01:06:50] these people now here we have a really different approach i mean don't get me wrong the sounds of

[01:06:57] the women screaming in the orc camp just absolutely make my blood run cold and the um the way

[01:07:05] they treat the the elves their love of cruelty and violence and all the rest of it uh they're

[01:07:10] they very definitely have orc characteristics but that they would be respectful

[01:07:17] of a leader i don't get the sense that any work respects sauron in the third age

[01:07:24] fears serves yes yes that's a different thing though isn't it absolutely different thing

[01:07:31] and so this of course is a precursor for some very interesting discussions in subsequent chapters

[01:07:37] which i'm sure we will get to but yeah it took me a while to really think about yeah okay this is

[01:07:44] culture you know these these are not animals i mean there's some animals that have something

[01:07:52] some things that we might call ritualistic elephants that will bury their dead and some more

[01:07:58] but yeah this this just really leads to a lot of uh complication in a good way i think complicating

[01:08:06] our former narratives and giving us a different sense of just exactly what orcs are all about

[01:08:13] right and as we get further in and there'll be more to talk about right in terms of this

[01:08:20] relationship between adar and the orcs there's there's we could even call it love

[01:08:26] there's a caring yeah cares about the orcs yes yes and they respond to that yes there is in many

[01:08:34] ways his children but then he is called adar which means father yeah so all of this is really

[01:08:43] interesting i mean the word father has so many connotations anyway oh absolutely and not all

[01:08:51] fathers are kind no i mean there's one scene in particular coming up eventually that i can think

[01:08:56] of in which adar is incredibly unkind to one of his quarter-unquote children for no reason that I

[01:09:03] can comprehend so and yet they respect him mm-hmm respect him follow him mm-hmm believe in him yeah

[01:09:16] and probably are more obedient to him than a lot of third-age orcs everywhere to sound on

[01:09:22] because they want to be and it's just it's quite fascinating indeed

[01:09:29] right so how would we sum up the cultural information we receive from these rituals in today's

[01:09:36] episode then mara land well we might need another hour just to do that much i know i mean it's just

[01:09:46] so many different ways in which we're getting i think closer to the core of

[01:09:53] well certainly the harfwitz and the orcs i mean just now and the differentiating of the

[01:10:00] noldor from the silvanelles is quite fascinating yes yeah in my experience to see the ways

[01:10:08] that newmanor has shifted in its enactment of rituals and who and what they place at the heart of

[01:10:16] them um music is quite crucial in fact there was so much to talk about on music that um we took it

[01:10:27] and put it into separate episode john lorehound is going to be my guest our guest except you couldn't

[01:10:32] join us alas mm-hmm and all we're gonna talk about is the music that we've so much to say about

[01:10:39] so there's just yeah there was it was too much to say and you know just one episode like this

[01:10:44] bama kriiri did the most incredible job on the music for this unquestionably unquestionably

[01:10:53] so that's not quite it for today's episode though because we have feedback oh yay

[01:10:58] we have all kinds of feedback oh fantastic it being people are listening yes they are they are not

[01:11:04] just listening they're responding so we will get to that right after a little quick

[01:11:18] okay welcome back let's get right to the messages that we received from several listeners

[01:11:22] want to kick off with one marlin i will eran k wrote in saying so excited i just started and

[01:11:29] brings a power rewatch last night yay i can't wait to hear your analysis of the rituals present in

[01:11:34] the show marlin oh wonderful and brion 8063 said this is going to be a great and thoughtful podcast

[01:11:42] looking forward to this no pressure let's hope we keep up that standard well maybe he looked

[01:11:47] in a palantir although balance here don't see the future so scratch that tina g said so excited

[01:11:54] i've listened to sarah on another podcast and it will be brilliant to hear her and marlin

[01:11:58] together in their own podcast really looking forward to it thank you tina i wonder which podcast

[01:12:05] that tina might be referring to well i can think of at least two yeah

[01:12:10] the truth and i'm sure they were both brilliant and becoming podcast ubiquitous oh dear

[01:12:17] oh dear or array has a three million loud cheers

[01:12:23] now davie mack actually wrote directly to you hi marlin as someone who isn't as up on Tolkien law

[01:12:29] only so much time in the day and limited brain space for going deep on different universes

[01:12:34] i absolutely hear what you're saying there davie mack can i ask how appealing you think these

[01:12:39] conversations will be for someone who isn't as interested in the rings of power tie in so much as

[01:12:45] just being generally interested in rituals as a concept the daily lives part of the picture

[01:12:51] above is what's got my interest peaked as well as the fact that you are involved i love what you

[01:12:56] bring to the other law hounds podcasts yay marlin yay and i responded many thanks for your kind

[01:13:03] words and for writing in we'll be using examples largely from rings of power but we do talk about

[01:13:08] ritual as a concept and as a cultural lens and we pull in quote unquote real world comparisons too

[01:13:16] so much of our conversation or riffs so i can't really predict specifics about what we'll say in

[01:13:20] any given episode and that's part of it that i love the most yes true we never quite know where

[01:13:25] we're going to go there is a ritual which drew me to do this whole project in the first place

[01:13:30] which is a wonderful mirror of northern european festivals around sown or halloween and you may be

[01:13:35] certain that we will be talking about that at some length as i hope you heard today indeed

[01:13:41] but you can always write in with questions directed at your specific interest in fact i hope

[01:13:45] you will since your questions are always insightful and help us dig deeper i hope that helps

[01:13:51] and davie macros spotted thanks for this response i really appreciate it and we'll definitely be

[01:13:56] subscribing and listening along all right well hi davie maca hope you're listening

[01:14:00] and brine 8063 he wrote in the gens saying halfway through the podcast i will learn much more about

[01:14:08] Tolkien's world which is a very good thing dr brown and marlin make a good duo you we do we make a great

[01:14:14] team does that mean that we need to own song if we have our own song you're the only one singing you

[01:14:22] really don't need to hear me singing i promise you can chant it will be an enchanted song

[01:14:28] oh very good but i mean she'll be here all week folks

[01:14:33] triangle walks 91 also known as tom wrote in saying love loving the preview so much a lot of my

[01:14:41] really big interests over the last three years have been exploring what ritual can mean

[01:14:45] we're having left the church in my teens to discovering my sexuality with a lot of negative baggage

[01:14:50] and then as an adult re-exploring spirituality and what plays ritual and gratitude can have in my life

[01:14:56] alongside discovering modern paganism i love how fantasy can explore ritual and meaning

[01:15:02] which Tolkien really said the script for yeah i think so side note a bug bearer of mine was the

[01:15:07] misuse and confusion of valtenian saun in the wheel of time tv show but it's a minor point

[01:15:14] super excited for the rest of the season had noticed you touch on these ideas a couple of times

[01:15:18] in podcasts and my ears pricked up will be following along closely thank you so much thank you

[01:15:25] for sharing so deeply of your personal life experience i did in fact contact him in advance

[01:15:31] and say is it all right if we share this on the podcast so i get to have his permission

[01:15:35] to share his story um and yes i agree and have always emphasized that ritual

[01:15:44] is closely tied in with uh religious experience but it is not exclusive to it by any matter of

[01:15:51] absolutely and anytime someone finds themselves in a ritual community which is not meeting their needs

[01:15:57] you can make your own rituals you don't have to be bound you know by convention in tradition now it

[01:16:04] means that it may be solitary ritual but it's perfectly valid mm-hmm if it gives meaning to your life

[01:16:11] absolutely offers you support so and sometimes you can find a new community with which to engage

[01:16:17] in ritual together exactly so Tom i hope you've been finding more things that have been

[01:16:23] of interest to you and supportive and please feel free to write it again absolutely we'd love

[01:16:27] to hear from you and you're amazingly welcome here absolutely we welcome all comers to write

[01:16:36] so i love this username 2kds2dgs which obviously is two kids two dogs i love that isn't it great

[01:16:44] and they wrote in saying so excited just listen to the intro to the intro episode what a wonderful

[01:16:49] angle to look at season one and a great way to do a rewatch i will definitely send in comments

[01:16:54] marlin you are such an amazing gift to our community can i just reiterate how wonderful marlin is

[01:17:01] yes all of this is true thank you thank you i i i considered not including the ones that were

[01:17:09] in essence saying yay you but i didn't want to leave out some and include others and have the

[01:17:13] people who wrote in feel i guess i won't write it again because they didn't even mention me so

[01:17:19] but hey yay you yay me yes your david often says come on or we're supposed to scrub the ones that

[01:17:25] were praising us no no kind of how i feel in one sense and in another sense i say heck no

[01:17:32] um all good words gratefully accepted and then metha says i really did enjoy it

[01:17:43] listened with my breakfast which was a much better match i love the discussions about rituals

[01:17:49] in the legendarium and just enjoy listening to the two of you being insightful in general

[01:17:54] i don't really have any questions for you yet i'm just excited to hear more

[01:17:57] but i'll ask in the lore hand server when something comes up so wonderful metha

[01:18:02] yeah i hope you do i'm glad you enhanced your breakfast

[01:18:06] always important to listen to good stuff while you're eating breakfast it helps the digestion

[01:18:10] gets you started for the day right exactly Aaron says i'm loving the newest episode of rings and

[01:18:16] rituals yay the conversation about the new menorians bringing an evergreen bow with them was

[01:18:21] particularly interesting to me as it got me thinking about the many traditions superstitions and

[01:18:26] rituals that have become a part of real life's sailor culture my first thought when i heard that

[01:18:31] was about the various iconographies and lamentos that sailors bring with them for protection and

[01:18:36] to ground themselves back to their families whether it be a photo of a loved one or anything that holds

[01:18:42] emotional and spiritual significance having that reminder of the land you came from when you're

[01:18:46] hundreds or thousands of miles from your home is a powerful thing that's absolutely what we're talking

[01:18:52] about today right it was and isn't that just so insightful of Aaron just an amazingly wonderful way

[01:18:58] of tying it into actual everyday experience in our world yeah Aaron finishes off by saying

[01:19:05] thanks for the engaging conversation Marilyn dr brown can't wait to see what you talk about next

[01:19:09] please focus call me Sarah and i can't wait to hear what we talk about next either because

[01:19:16] stuff always pops up yes as i was listening to you read Aaron's letter i was thinking of the incredibly

[01:19:23] beautifully carved narwhal horn that doingland sailors would work with when they went on in the

[01:19:30] wailing ships and you know if you go to particularly in in New England in the states if you go to a

[01:19:35] wailing museum you're almost certain to see some of those pieces so it was a memento it was a craft

[01:19:42] it was way to occupy some of the more dull hours but i love his notion of bringing something with you

[01:19:49] that reminds you of home which is another way of saying anchors you to the land yes

[01:19:55] and sarah that you were the one who extemporized and read and so beautifully interpreted

[01:20:02] the whole green bell returning so i particularly wanted this one to be here because i wanted to

[01:20:06] thank you for that it was it was great it was great very welcome it's a

[01:20:11] it comes from a bit of the unfinished tales that's one of my favorites actually yeah mine too so i'm

[01:20:18] really glad you brought it in my turn yes it is okay from Pete Clark thanks for the beginnings episode

[01:20:26] really interesting stuff just the record i wasn't crying either when it came to the lament for

[01:20:31] fayodon i don't believe you Pete now i'm keen to get on to the next episodes looking at things through

[01:20:40] the perspective of ritual is very interesting in our house attending birth they cake ceremony is

[01:20:45] remains compulsory for our now teenage kids when lots of other things have become a matter of choice

[01:20:52] on the face of it it's not a very important matter but yet clearly somehow it is and yeah it

[01:20:58] absolutely is so i actually responded to Pete in the discord most of these come from the discord by

[01:21:04] the way but they also come from some of the um uh Facebook groups as well and i said so glad you

[01:21:11] enjoyed it and thank you for your kind words i think there were a lot of contact lens whereas

[01:21:15] that got something in their eyes during the lament for the edit and don't you and thanks for

[01:21:20] sharing about your household and birthday cake ceremonies still being compulsory for the teenagers

[01:21:25] do enjoy those rituals while they last

[01:21:28] okay so two kds two dgs two kids do dogs wrote in the game and said well lovely bit of advice i think

[01:21:39] definitely give it a try please do some references to characters you may not know but you will know

[01:21:45] most of them in episode one i found that the discussion of rituals in relation to the Lord of the

[01:21:49] Rings could be related to other works of fiction for me it has opened up a new way of thinking about

[01:21:54] what i'm reading and my understanding of the balance of episodes is that we'll connect to the plot

[01:22:00] of rings of power which we all know bastardized Tolkien's story just a wee bit it definitely

[01:22:05] played fast and loose yeah but you know let's not forget of course that Tolkien didn't really write

[01:22:10] the second age so yeah it's it's a good point we have lots of little hints and themes and whatever

[01:22:17] but bits and pieces yeah a full narrative text from beginning to end yeah but uh i do think the rings

[01:22:23] of power has been a bit malamite yes i think you could say that i am one who has tasted marmite

[01:22:31] even though my accent wouldn't tell you so and i kind of liked it back then too

[01:22:36] it's an interesting stuff well it was very salty and i loved salt and uh i you know i wanted to be

[01:22:43] English or British or whichever actative you'd like to use so it was okay um i don't eat it now

[01:22:50] yeah and later we have another um little little writing from them am i the only one who teared up

[01:22:59] i loved the other no you're not the only one who teared up i teared up every single time

[01:23:04] i get to that bit with the death of the theater seriously we were both there with our

[01:23:08] languages metaphorically and i immediately went back in my mind to his son's funeral in the Lord

[01:23:15] of the Rings extended edition that is a beautiful moment actually where they have that song

[01:23:22] and it's you know almost like it's a charm truly isn't it and it's just glorious i think

[01:23:28] it's a keening yeah it might even be keen well not quite keening i guess keening is in the Irish

[01:23:33] tradition is wordless but it definitely reflects an anglicics and practice and yeah might even have

[01:23:40] used anglicics and lyrics or poetry or something or maybe it was just that they used anglicics and

[01:23:46] well i think it was old english yeah i think a lot of the language in that was was old english yeah

[01:23:51] yeah um okay marlin i just did my duty with five stars and a little write up yes

[01:24:00] one thing i have to say as i was listening when you and sorrow were discussing middle earth it

[01:24:03] was as if you were discussing the history and people of a real world i'm so glad to know i'm not

[01:24:08] the only one who thinks and talks that way i don't know what you mean middle earth is absolutely real

[01:24:14] hello hello yeah i understand that it's an interesting distinction between real and true

[01:24:22] yes or you could say factual and true mm-hmm yeah so i could argue that you know middle earth

[01:24:29] is not factual but it's very absolutely true yeah real to so many of us so uh yeah i mean how

[01:24:38] else are you going to talk about it come on yes yeah yeah it's uh it's obviously it's a place i

[01:24:44] spend a lot of time in with my jobs and my hobbies and all that kind of thing it's this is what i do

[01:24:51] and so indeed i live in middle earth a lot of the time does not suck to be me i know not at all

[01:24:59] and you know if you think about it there are books out there to teach you how to cook foods that you

[01:25:03] find in middle earth and knitting patterns and and you know all kinds of things right and there's

[01:25:09] philosophy of middle earth there's spirituality of middle earth i mean there's books on every aspect

[01:25:14] of it that all mean military history literature of course songs music yeah how a tree yep absolutely

[01:25:25] okay well thank you readers excuse me thank you listeners for writing and stuff that we could read

[01:25:32] on air and please keep it coming absolutely this is a lot of fun yeah also you know

[01:25:39] sharing your personal reactions to it but also making those connections to other texts and

[01:25:44] shows and so that's that's the kind of thing that really gets my juice flowing and i think

[01:25:48] that might be true for you too Sarah yes absolutely and if you've thought of one that we've missed

[01:25:53] in an episode then please please let us know how about this what about that you know do definitely

[01:26:00] would love to hear from you and also send us any questions that you have

[01:26:06] okay so that's it for this episode please do write and let us know what you think any suggestions

[01:26:12] you might have for rituals for us to talk about anything else you'd like to share with us

[01:26:17] we welcome your feedback at rings and rituals at the lawhounds.com or on the lawhounds discord server

[01:26:23] where we have a special channel to set up just for rings and rituals. On the lawhounds website there's

[01:26:29] also a contact form and a voicemail feature look for that contact us link at the bottom of the page

[01:26:36] we're aiming to publish two episodes a month but if you follow any of the Lordhounds podcasts

[01:26:40] you'll hear our ads and i'll let you know in the next episode is approaching now also be sure

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[01:26:56] the main lawhounds podcast links for all of these are also in the show notes. Our sincere thanks to

[01:27:03] our recording engineer and editor Bob to David and John our producers and to John for arranging

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[01:27:27] the podcasts as well as many other benefits until next time then remember no one kneels in humanore

[01:27:34] over their will for now yeah have I said farewell