Ch. 8 - Alloyed

[00:00:00] This summer we enter a new era of Star Wars. You mean the Dawn of the Star Wars can't in timeline podcast? Yeah, yeah sure that too but I was obviously talking about the acolyte. We've got to cover that on the lorehounds.

[00:00:18] Oh, but the Star Wars can't in timeline podcasts is exactly at that point in the timeline. The end of the high-repeb-like 100 years before the prequel trilogy, we've got to cover it there. Why not both? Okay, deal. It's the first live action Star War outside the Skywalker saga.

[00:00:37] Nobody can miss this. Listeners, kick off your hot lore summer weekends with scene by scene breakdowns of the acolyte found in both. The Star Wars can in timeline podcast and the lorehounds mother feed. And the lorehounds Star Wars feed.

[00:00:51] Wherever you like to listen a couple of days after each new episode is released. Hello and welcome to episode 8 of Rings and Richials, a Lloyd from the Pain and McKay series Rings of Power. I'm Merrill and the librarian of Rivendell.

[00:01:28] And I'm Sarah Shield made in a rowhand and we're delighted that you've joined us. Today we'll be reviewing one last time what we mean by ritual and then applying those concepts to the different examples of ritual that we find in this

[00:01:40] eight and final episode of Season 1 of the TV series. We'll explore each ritual using a set of questions to reveal how pain and McKay depicted the cultures that they were adapting to their series. Be sure to get in touch with us.

[00:01:54] A discussion of two isn't adventure but we'd love to have more voices join us. You can email us at Rings and Richials at the lorehounds.com and or you can join our Rings and Richials channel on more Hounds discord. We'll include all that information in the show notes.

[00:02:10] Now listeners please take note. This is our final episode of the series. Now following this we'll have a bonus episode on music and ritual and the rings are power with a special guest.

[00:02:20] And then we intend to have a feedback episode so that we can incorporate all the feedback that we can get from our final episodes into one exclusively feedback episode. Now that means we must have your comments by July 9th

[00:02:34] as we intend to record the feedback episode on July 10th. So still thinking about what you haven't yet said that you would like to say. And we are also wanting to say that we are a proud affiliate of the

[00:02:44] Lorehounds, Barovian Broadcasting Network where you will find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, films, books, video games and other stories. Our thanks to all the listeners who support the Lorehounds and also rings and rituals through good ratings on Apple iTunes, which boost our

[00:03:01] visibility by joining the Lorehounds Patreon or Supercast and from other forms of donation. If you like what we are doing here consider giving them a boost as well. So before I get started we just wanted to take note of the fact that at this

[00:03:18] time we are already receiving bits of information about season 2. For those of you who do not wish to be spoiled I would suggest that you cut out now and come back in 5-10 minutes or so.

[00:03:28] By that time we should be talking about what ritual is and where what are the questions we will be using in our analysis of the final episode. Okay, time to leave now. So for those of you who are still here we thought

[00:03:42] we discussed the fact that there has been a lot of conversations stirred up about the appearance of one Tom Bommadil with the stranger. Indeed. This would be the first time that Tom has appeared in any visual representation or adaptation of Tolkien that we know of.

[00:03:56] There has been an audio only example in the Brian Sidley production of the Bommadil chapters from the Lore of the Rings. You can find this on the CD called Tales from the Parallelist realm. It features Yon Hague as Bommadil.

[00:04:09] It's my mind he doesn't excellent job of voicing Tom. Of course he is not acting Tom as well. So what are your thoughts about this unexpected appearance? Hmm. Entry, slightly concerned. I think intrigued because it will be interesting to see a physical

[00:04:28] representation of visual representation of bombadil on screen. And they've got a good actor to play him. That is for sure. But if they've just put bombadil in because they just want to put bombadil in that won't be so great. I really would want them to be doing something

[00:04:50] very specific. That means that they need to have bombadil in. I mean the fact that they're transplanting him to run is a little bit odd. As we know that was not exactly what Tom did. But okay, I think I'm just going to leave it with intrigued but waiting

[00:05:12] to see what it is they're going to do with him. And his boots had better be yellow. Well they were a bit yellowish in one of those. Yes. They were yellow adjacent. Maybe we can say. Yes.

[00:05:26] I do think that Tom spent a lot of time traveling around before he finally declared his kingdom to be along with the windle. Yes, but as far east as Roon. Well, he does say that or I guess it's El Rant who says that he has different names

[00:05:40] for the doors and the elves and humans. So he's been around. Roon is part of my whole head cannon about where the Ant-Wives went. And so I'm wondering if they're going to bring them in at some point.

[00:05:54] We did see that at life comforting their entire child they're ending when the comet streaked across the sky there in that very first episode. So having dropped them in there so tantalizingly I really do hope that they are planning to show us that some point.

[00:06:14] And that could be a possible link, you know, maybe Tom had been keeping connections with him somehow and suddenly everything went silent and he's out there trying to figure out why.

[00:06:24] I did also read or hear somewhere that the show runners were wanting Tom to bring a little bit of light into what is supposed to be a very dark season. So take that for where it's worth.

[00:06:38] Whether, you know, what I think about it I can't really say at this point because I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, you know, my ex-exact like let me get some material to make form of the opinion around and not just kind of Emote about it at this point.

[00:06:53] Yes, yes, hence my I'm intrigued. Yeah, but I'm waiting to see what they do with him. Yeah, and I'm also looking for a nice bright blue on that jacket. Well, he would have probably needed to go to Bronwyn for that. Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:07:10] Yep, and you know, additional spoiler there will not be a Bronwyn. Yes, I know. I'm terribly grieved about that but of course the actor has her very good reasons for doing that. Yes. And I certainly affirm her right to do that. Not that it makes any difference.

[00:07:27] What I think about it one or the other. But she was my favorite character. You know, from the moment I saw the posters, hers was the one that I really tracked in on and saw the The circle and said, okay, agriculture, possibly a herbalist or a healer.

[00:07:44] And I was right. So you know, having accomplished that connection, I'm very, very sad to listen. And I also am kind of sad to think, you know, what are all the stories that we won't hear? Because we lost that character.

[00:07:57] I mean, had they intended that she would die anyway. I didn't get that impression, but it's not outside the realm of possibilities. True. But there'll be plenty of plot lines that they can develop from that tragedy. So I expect that's what they're going to do.

[00:08:12] Well, they've got four more seasons to develop those plot lines in. Seriously. Any other tidbits you can think of that have dropped recently? At the moment, I mean, I'll be honest, I haven't been paying any enormous amount of attention to what's coming up.

[00:08:30] I have seen initial photography of the new actor who's playing Adder. I'm glad they're continuing the character. Yes, but I thought that the first actor was absolutely brilliant playing Adder. So it's big boots to fill off, you know, pixie boots, elfish boots, or boots, whatever they actually are.

[00:08:53] But they are big boots to fill because he was excellent. Well, I'm glad they're the character remains. Yeah, and that's kind of an interesting contrast, isn't it? Now that you mentioned it. There was something that they needed to have him there for. Yes, so they replaced it.

[00:09:10] The fact that they didn't replace Brunwyn. I hope that doesn't mean that they thought that she was, you know, not essential. On your behalf, maybe they had planned for her to die early on, and they just decided, all right, we'll just start with this in here.

[00:09:24] Yes, maybe. I mean, I would imagine that they have set up a story, a clash of some kind to happen between Adder and Sauron. Oh, yeah, I mean, last we saw Sauron, he was head and home. And Adder is already there.

[00:09:43] So I'm actually quite looking forward to seeing what happens when Sauron knocks on the door and the door and the door. It says, hi, honey, I'm home. Remember? Yeah. And because they both asked each other, you know, who are you and do you remember me?

[00:10:01] And as I was reviewing the final episode of season one for this podcast, I've heard the line that Sauron says to Gladriel, I was fighting against your enemy and mine. So that made it pretty clear to me that, yeah, Sauron once are reckoning. Indeed.

[00:10:24] So I think there is something to look forward to. I'm hoping that they've taken the two intervening years to consider some of the concerns of those who've been watching it. We'll see what they'd done with that. See where they go with all of those story lines.

[00:10:41] Yes, well, yeah, I mean, I'm going to watch it. I want to see what they do. Whether we like it or not, that's a whole other conversation. Isn't it just? Yeah, I'm also looking forward to it.

[00:10:55] And curious, just really curious to see where they're going to go next. So, Sauron, go next ourselves? Yes, indeed. And we'll start the way we usually start because as our regular listeners know, we like to begin with a review of our definition of ritual.

[00:11:12] And particularly for anyone who might be joining us for the first time. So Marilyn, what do we mean by ritual? First and foremost, ritual is a repeated action. Something that has done more than once and has attained some kind of meaning as a result of that.

[00:11:28] It's usually intended to recognize and or bring about change. It often has symbolic content, but not always walking the dog twice a day as it can be considered some form of ritual. How symbolic that is?

[00:11:44] I don't know, it much depends on how kind you are to your dog and how you feel about dog poo, I suppose. Ritual may be a form of meaning making, which does not have to be religious or spiritual.

[00:11:57] So we have fireworks designed to help celebrate, but it can be celebrating and then recognizing a ritual of many different types inside of the successful revolution or commencement night or any number of things.

[00:12:15] And ritual may create or reinforce communal identity, though there are also solitary or personal rituals. And I think that's something that we see the most in our exploration of the series. Our fundamental ritual gives structure and meaning to the other imaginable,

[00:12:33] and it may include humor, which can help one to bear in the unbearable. Right, so we'll keep those points in mind as we describe each ritual. And we're going to weave in the following questions as usual. What is the design of the ritual?

[00:12:48] What is the intent of the ritual? What is the outcome? And particularly, what does that ritual tell us about the culture and the individuals in that culture? And as a special endosies in Treet, when we have covered the material from the episode,

[00:13:04] we'll have the great pleasure listening to Sara take us through a discussion of alchemy and Tolkien's works. And in the ring's apparent particular, Tolkien and Alchemy are Sara's jam. And I'm really excited to hear what she has to say tonight.

[00:13:16] Well, no pressure. I'll do my best to bring a little bit of that to it. But we're going to take a quick break now. And when we come back, we'll bring you the meat or the tofu for our vegan and vegetarian listeners without the quail sauce. Welcome back.

[00:13:44] We're going to explore the ritual elements that we saw in this eighth episode. But to add our listeners' memories, we'll also include a synopsis of events,

[00:13:52] though at a safe time we may leave out one or two scenes or compile some out of order for the sake of continuity. Please note, we are doing full-on spoilers throughout these episodes.

[00:14:02] And if you really don't want that, then please go and binge the entire season and then come back and join us. The strange thing? I absolutely want to start.

[00:14:12] The stranger makes his way into the green wood with his star map wrapped around the apple that Naudi gave him. I remind her that he is good. One of the hissesisters takes on Naudi's form to entrap him.

[00:14:26] And all three of them, the Asetic, the Nomad and the Barrower, kneel before him to honor him as Lord Saldron. They tell the stranger that they have been looking for him and that the veil covering his mind will soon lift.

[00:14:39] The Asetic tells him that the pattern of the stars he is looking for is called the Hermits Hat, and that it is only visible from one place. The crown, they tell him that he will have command over all the elements and that all things will be his slaves.

[00:14:56] When he tries to tap into it, it is too much for him and they put him into unconsciousness. Suddenly they sense that they are being watched and they hide as the four hardwoods emerge.

[00:15:09] They try to lead off the sisters and release the stranger, only to discover that the Barrower has taken on his form. A battle ensues and Saddok is stabbed. The stranger emerges and using the sisters' staff, he calls upon the winds with his magia and defeats the three.

[00:15:28] From Shadow you came to Shadow I bid you return and they reply, he is not Sauron, he is the other, the East Star, he is I am good. The Hissy sisters turn into mods and disperse.

[00:15:46] The three hardwood women hug each other and then see that Saddok is mortally wounded. He tells them I am afraid of about to go off wander in off trail. Don't be sad proud foot, the Mrs will be waiting.

[00:16:00] Now if you don't mind, I just like to sit a while, watch the sun come up. He smiles at the stranger who nods in return and the four hobbits sit together as the sun rises, watch over by the stranger.

[00:16:17] Right. Well, what do we think is going on there, Marlin? Well of course we have Saddok's death and that's why I chose to read some of the things he said because I find some very interesting details there. He can see his death is wandering off trail. Right.

[00:16:39] And we go back to the ritual that they had for their harvest festival and how they were constantly chanting, you know, nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone.

[00:16:56] So here is the moment in any hardwood's life when like it or not, you are going to go wandering off trail. But his next words are don't be sad. So for the hardwood's evidently death is not or is not intended to be something bad, evil dark scary, whatever.

[00:17:20] And most important, the Mrs will be waiting. Right. Yeah. That fills in a lot of background on Saddok that we didn't know. It sure does. It sure does. And it reinforces, I think, what we saw in that harvest ritual of not simply remembering your beloved dead,

[00:17:42] but saying, we wait for you. Well guess what? The dead also wait for the living. Right. And I just think that's beautiful. Hmm. I think so too. And I think what we get here is we've had hints before this that there has been death among the harfots.

[00:18:06] Of course, we have that ritual as you were talking about there and poppies family. We know I'm no longer there at all. But here we actually get to see a harfot facing death.

[00:18:20] And perhaps revealing a little bit about what the harfots think about death as part of his response. That death is for them. It's all a part of the way in which they perceive the world and how they perceive their place in it.

[00:18:39] That the trail, if we're doing a speak metaphorically and why not? Let's speak metaphorically. The trail is the path you take through life and that trail might wind but you have to stay on that trail. And leaving that trail which during life is seen as perilous,

[00:18:58] leaving that trail only happens when you die. There's no wonder they think nobody goes off trail is dangerous if they feel that that's kind of part of the death part of the equation. Right. And I also see in this people who live right close to nature.

[00:19:19] They see the cycles, they see the rhythms, they recognize death as part of the wholeness. Death is completion and yet death as the beginning of something different. The misses will be waiting great then what? Maybe they anticipate maybe they don't but there is this sense of.

[00:19:44] We are still with one another whatever our situation or our circumstance because we stick together. Nobody walks alone wherever they walk including in death including in death and the fact that they watch plants go through a cycle of you know,

[00:20:02] being growth decay death and then return because they return to the same places every year and the plants that were there last year are there again this year. So it's a very rich cycle I think.

[00:20:18] Yes quite a healthy attitude to life, that life is cyclical and everything about it is natural and although you should you know do things to try and prevent death happening like not wandering off the trail. In the end it's all good it's fine.

[00:20:35] Sadducks attitude to it I think is very accepting and also it's quite sweet because the wife will be waiting for him and you can see that that something that he truly thinks is going to be waiting for him.

[00:20:55] And there are some viewers who were wondering while there's the stranger he's clearly recovered some of his powers. Why does it heal Sadduck? And the way I interpret the glance between them you know Sadduck goes over and looks almost questionally at the stranger and the stranger nods.

[00:21:13] I my cannerness there's a conversation between them where Sadduck says can you let me go please. And the stranger says if that's what you wish.

[00:21:24] Yeah it brings up a whole lot of issues when you start having somebody bringing someone back from the brink of death through powers of some kind. And I think that I think would be worrying to inject into the narrative at this point as well.

[00:21:44] Yeah, but also talking's world, talking's narratives are all about loss. They're about death they're about loss. We should be seeing death and loss in this story if they're trying to keep to the major things. And nobody is immune to that including the half of it.

[00:22:06] So I just think it actually is quite important that we see this happening. I do too and we see the four women sitting with him relaxed enjoying the sunset crying. So yes, morning your dead is an appropriate thing to do. Thank you, Niana.

[00:22:24] And at the same time, it's part of life as much as is the sun coming up.

[00:22:34] And you know, the thought of the stranger intervening in this process as you said, you know, so close to death begins to have a little touch of necromancy in it and then that is go at you that as we know from the texts is actually one of the names of South on that one point.

[00:22:53] He's called the necromancer, which means someone who is as people from the dead. So it just would not have seemed right to me if that had happened.

[00:23:03] Right. Yeah, I mean, the kind of wound that's sad or hard, you're not coming back from that without some kind of other worldly intervention and yeah, don't think that would have been a good thing at all.

[00:23:19] No, no, it would have been contrary to nature. I think they would have said anything else for this not from that section, I think.

[00:23:31] But I do think it's an important moment in which we learn even more about the half-hoods and actually of all of the people, I think the half-hoods have much more of a no, not rigid.

[00:23:46] That's not the word I'm looking for, but more of a structured ritualization to their lives and although we haven't seen birth yet, we've now seen death. And I think that's really interesting. Yeah, that's true.

[00:24:03] I don't know if we'll see more of the structured aspects as the season progresses, but they do have a simple structure, but an essential structure. Again, for their survival, they're living very close to the edge and so having having these guidelines, these structures, these rituals is important for their survival as a community.

[00:24:30] And that was the other thing about this. I just got a very strong sense of community throughout, you know, he wasn't dying alone. Right, because nobody walks alone. Exactly, even on the final path. Even into death, yeah. Yeah. Okay, well that was lovely.

[00:24:48] Will you take us to the next section, please? Yes, indeed. So we are with a Galadriel and Halbrund, because after a non-stop six day journey on horseback,

[00:24:59] they arrive at a region where Kalibrin Boar and Elrond have been discussing their failure trying to use the mehril to stay off the decline of the elves. And Halbrund is immediately sent to the Elvish healows. So before I go any further, let's consider the question, Elvish medicine.

[00:25:20] How do you think that works? Do they use rituals for healing, do you think? I mean, Halbrund is quite severely injured because they don't realise at the moment who Halbrund is, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The hindsight is always interesting.

[00:25:38] My first thought is clearly they have a very deep knowledge of medicinal plants in herbs and treatment. And I remember at first thinking, well, why did the elves become such great practitioners in medicine because they don't get sick when it's come from?

[00:26:01] Well, of course, you know, a thousand years of war with Motogoth will tend to, you know, not only ruin your day but possibly ruin your health as well. So presumably they begin to learn out of necessity. It's interesting.

[00:26:18] We saw a lot of ritual around the return to Valinor. I'm not sure how much more overt ritual we have actually seen with the elves. Not very much actually, which again, if we put that against what happens with the harfots. That's quite contrast. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:41] With the medicine, yeah, as you say, elves don't get sick but in over the millennia they have come into very close contact with humans and humans certainly do. And elves have been around for long enough to understand the ways in which plant law will work.

[00:27:02] You know, the natural remedies that can be used and they will have also had to treat battle wounds and injuries and things like that. So whether it's ritualized or not, I don't know.

[00:27:15] I mean, I would say that the elves are probably about as advanced as anybody could be in healing in middle-earth. Whether that incorporates ritual, we haven't seen any of that at all. No, no, I'm not messing with myself, which of the Valinor would I call upon?

[00:27:33] A healing context. I think L'Orian is mentioned but more about dreams and rest, that sort of healing. I don't think they really have a Valinor that is dedicated to healing specifically. Listeners write in and correct me if I'm wrong. Can you can you think of anything, sir?

[00:27:55] No, no. I mean, we have Yavano tends to living things but we don't really hear of her being a healer of those living things. We have Nianna who weeps for the pain of those living things, but we don't hear of her being a healer of those living things.

[00:28:17] No, but I would love to hear from anybody who has ideas about that. That would be really interesting. And O'Rondear mentions in an earlier episode that they have what he calls artificers who are skilled in the arts of a healing the body,

[00:28:34] but that else tend to heal themselves from way in and that healing of the soul is as important to them as healing of the body. But of course, this is a human they think they're dealing with. Right. And so the approach might be quite different.

[00:28:52] Yes. I mean, I have questions about the fact that Sauron who is a Maya seems to have been severely injured has he? Has he really? Is he wanting to be taken into this stronghold? Is this actually part of his manipulation of what's going on?

[00:29:15] Yeah, it just seems unlikely to me that a Maya would be in such desperate need of healing. And also, he's obviously able to cloak himself such that when he goes to the healers they don't figure out hang on a minute you will not human.

[00:29:32] And my first thought too is like, whoa. What's he doing to disguise his real substance from them?

[00:29:41] Because I mean, from the very beginning I've had difficulty even before I knew who he actually was. There were lots of questions about how did he get this wound and why was he on the side of the road and nobody knew it and so on and so on.

[00:29:55] So many questions, but of course if he is a Maya then that's fairly easily answered. Although that also raises other questions of well if he is a Maya, rather than why does he allow this to happen and that he's happened and you know why does he stop trying to persuade a Lavriel jumping far ahead.

[00:30:16] Anyway, I'll ask some more of those questions when we get to that point. Actually, how do you like to carry us on through the next session? I do that. Yep. So both Galadriel and Elrond are astonished to see one another in a region.

[00:30:30] Elrond is going to be surprised isn't he? Because the last year you,

[00:30:33] the Collagerial was on her way to Fallenore, but Elrond does apologise for having collaborated to send a Galadriel away to Fallenore and a Galadriel explains that she left from the ship because she did not feel worthy of Fallenore and knew that her task on mid-Lose was not complete.

[00:30:48] She says that she did not swim so far only to drown now and she will not let Elrond drown either. And then we have this astonishingly mobile hellbrand who, like 30 seconds ago was a deathdore and being hauled off to the healers, but he walks slowly into Calabrimbord's workshop.

[00:31:08] Elrond medicine. Yes, Elrond medicine. Yes. And he delights Calabrimbord with his appreciation of his fame. Yeah, Calabrimbord is not immune to flattery as he, or was such a good moment from the actor.

[00:31:26] He just nailed that. It was marvelous to see. Yes, you could see him start to glow from the inside. Yeah, it's just a transformation. He likes me. Yeah, but how about then proceeds to tell him about such things as alloying metals to eat them out?

[00:31:46] Calabrimbord calls this an intriguing suggestion. Halbrand calls it a gift. That was the moment. First viewing when I said, oh, no, no, no, no.

[00:32:00] That's where you knew absolutely was it. How could they, you know, I mean, they've been dropping hints all over the place and I was doing my best to offer explanations for them, but this is the last episode and this point is it.

[00:32:13] So for our listeners who don't quite get that explained why he was saying it's a gift actually makes it quite clear he's out on. Well, we may see some of this in the upcoming season too, but in the text there was a being called Anatara who

[00:32:34] purported said he came from the baller to aid Calabrimbord in his forging of rings of power and Anatara is translated as Lord of gifts. So at that point it was pretty clear wasn't it? It was definitely a key where it was definitely, you know, flash.

[00:32:55] Yeah, I remember watching that and feeling yes, that's it. It's definite, but I have been suspicious of Aquagorn for quite some time.

[00:33:05] I kept trying to come up with reasons for well he was very close to Sauron and that's where he picked up this notion of, you know, if you want to defeat your enemy, find out what they fear

[00:33:15] and then show them how to overcome it. I said, okay that's that's level five. I hope he was in the shadows watching Sauron do this. Cognitive bias, it's amazing. It's really strong thing. That's always important to know what it is that's actually operating in sequence head. Very true.

[00:33:38] Okay, so I'll continue with what happens next because we head off to Numinor and we're at the bedside of a dying tar palantir where pharazonset several artists sketching the king in preparation for a magnificent tomb.

[00:33:52] Aarion is one of the lucky apprentices chosen to compete in this task and during her sketching, the king regains consciousness mistakes her for middle and tells her that if the island does not return to the old ways it will fall.

[00:34:06] He commands her to go and look in the palantir though not for too long because he did so and now cannot separate what was from what is or what was from what will be she goes to the palantir and removes the cover. And the scene ends. Right.

[00:34:24] So do we assume that she has the same vision that Miguel has seen that gladriel has seen in the palantir? I don't know what they're doing with palantir right here at this point, Sauron. There's so many unanswered questions.

[00:34:42] There's you know six others to be accounted for and I'm guessing that a lot of them are off in the west of the island with the faithful. It's gotten stuck on channel big wave so. I'm not sure, I mean Aarion doesn't even know what she's looking at so.

[00:35:03] In that sense how could it show or anything other than you know the drowning of the mornore. It was I like I was interested to have him talk about what caused his incapacitation was looking too long. Into the palantir that sort of has echoes of denosore.

[00:35:23] You know seeking to learn more and farther and farther and deeper and deeper until he was trapped now of course there was no sauton at the other end to trapped the car palantir at this point.

[00:35:35] They're clearly turning the palantir into something other than what they were in the text. We're adding on layers. Yeah, perhaps this one seems to be functioning is more of a crystal bold and exactly exactly which the palantir we're not know. There is one vision's.

[00:35:52] No there is one sentence somewhere that does imply that some sight into the future was possible but it certainly isn't how we ever see it used.

[00:36:02] It's supposed to be communication between distances and you know if a mountain gets in the way then it doesn't work I mean it's kind of early self or more than.

[00:36:13] Crystal ball I think yeah yeah I mean denathor as you say had sauton on the other end of the line and that's why he was pulled into it because sauton was able to communicate via the palantir. The things he wanted denathor to see and to believe.

[00:36:33] Yeah, so I mean in that sense a palantir can bring visions in that somebody can send that it's a communication to all right but if that is the case with this palantir who's sending the visions of the wave.

[00:36:47] Well with what is it connected with whom is it connected? It clearly not sell run because he's not at that point yet and he's not at the other end of a palantir. I mean you could make a case for it being out of himself trying to send warnings.

[00:37:05] I'm not sure that's the direction they're moving in though it doesn't feel quite right to me but nobody else that I can think of. Well we don't know anybody else is at the other end of any palantir at this point except this one so.

[00:37:21] Does anybody else guess I think that you know having it be locked into this thing and. Medial and describing her experience to go out there you'll seem to imply that it's been this way from the very first time she looked.

[00:37:38] Now it didn't seem to disturb her mind for way it disturbed cauffellentir's mind but his explanation is well I did it too often. So presumably he would not.

[00:37:49] Let her look in it too often and in fact he mistakes her from your nails so perhaps he's reliving that memory right now and this is. Trying to get her to see this is this is why I tried to turn us all back to the proper path.

[00:38:13] But it seems to it seems to have gone a bit awkward. Should we say it stuck on this line and it's not going to let anybody else dial anything else I guess. Mm-hmm. All right so.

[00:38:32] Um, did you say the curtain comes down very suddenly upon arian and the palantir? I think we're meant to understand that arian has got some kind of part to play and what comes next for nomenal. I think so. Yeah, I think so.

[00:38:47] You'd start talking about building monuments and whatnot. Many people are speculated that she is going to be pulled into building a great vast. Temple for one cell on who will be returning to nomenal and not looking much like a southlander I think.

[00:39:05] Yeah, we'll see what happens with that and how soon that happens. But in the meantime those nomenalian ships are heading towards Harbour and on board the queen who of course was blinded in previous episode. She practices mobility alone and a lendial compliments her and she replies,

[00:39:27] I'm not sure if you can recognize me again like that captain, I'll have your ship. So they're not mess with my deal. They each admit to one another, they are still of the faithful even though the choices they have made have led to sorrow and loss.

[00:39:41] My deal says that her father once told her that the way of the faithful is committing to pay the price even if the cost cannot be known and trusting that in the end it will be worth it.

[00:39:51] And they both commit to seeing it through to the end and paying the price come what may. They go on deck only to find the harbour filled with black banners of mourning for the king. Fathers on stands before the body of the king all but weeping.

[00:40:05] So here we actually do see, I think this is a lovely contrast to the harfoot preparation for death or marking of death. We have the new menorian version of this. Now obviously this is for a king. But Saddok of course was the leader in the harfoot camp.

[00:40:25] Yes, yes. Good comparison I think, good analogy. Yeah, so before the king is even dead, people pop along to do sketches for his tomb. I would find that singularly disconcerting if I was not being that bad. At least wait until he's not breathing anymore folks. Come on, yes.

[00:40:45] Oh, quite. Why are you here? I need to sketch you for your tomb, Sire. Lovely. Unless it was 19th century France and then they were doing death masks all the time while they were still living.

[00:40:59] Because the death masks of them were after they were bodies and so forth. More of a bid preoccupation, anyone? Yes, yes. So apart from these sketches which seem to be something accepted as this is what we do.

[00:41:15] So it's part of this ritual of marking the death of a monarch. All the ships are hung with black banners. The harbors filled with black banners. So it looks like they have that kind of way of marking death that black as the morning color.

[00:41:39] The banners are everywhere which would be a sign a signal that everybody would understand. So it's part of the collective consciousness of the new anorians. And please, my previous comment don't let you hear that I'm casting shade on the French because I didn't need to.

[00:41:57] No, no, no, no. It is a fascinating part of a wonderful French culture all history that absolutely. That's come along in response to things like you know, hundred years of war and so on and so forth.

[00:42:13] And each culture responds differently and as you said, so it's interesting to set the harfots and the new anorians side by side. In their responses to death. So clearly it's a, it's an event of special magnificence.

[00:42:33] But we say even though it's a death and not a birthday party. The, the tombs, I mean this takes us back to the Egyptian influence doesn't it? It does. And it's a new anorian's being obsessed with preservation of bodies.

[00:42:52] As a means of possibly discovering how to revive a dead one sometime. You know, it's not just the commitment to honoring the dead but also gee maybe we can learn more about how to extend our already extended lifespan. Which admittedly have been shrinking.

[00:43:10] They have significantly less hundreds, couple hundred years or more. But not for any of the reasons that they think it is.

[00:43:19] I mean, that this is kind of the irony that the more they try to extend their life, the more it is trunk because they are resisting the natural order of things. Whereas the harfots live within the natural order of things. They embrace it and embrace it.

[00:43:39] They do not fear it because they're not trying to resist it. Right. Yeah. And yeah, the preparation for the tomb of the king just immediately brought me to Denithor. Obviously many, many years later and his preoccupation with the tombs of the dead.

[00:44:02] And this idea that in Minas Tirith they were always facing backwards. They were always looking to their past and that is where their strengths and their glory lies. And it sort of marks who they are but as a result of always looking back.

[00:44:21] And then failing to look forwards we have a sterile city. One where there hasn't been a king in place for centuries. Where you have a steward who's rule over Gondor just encourages that sense of sterility. Because again, Rath Dinan is more important than anything else.

[00:44:48] The marking of the tombs, the, you know, the way in which memory is built into stone rather than used as experience to look forward. Some extent nicely put, nicely put. I think of Rath Dinan as the silent street and the comments on how silent Minas Tirith has become.

[00:45:09] Yeah, of course they set the children away but even so there are fewer and fewer houses that are being inhabited now. It's one of the satir aspects of Tolkien's beliefs and understandings that the past was always better and more glorious than the present.

[00:45:30] But the future doesn't look positive. Maybe briefly but you know he just had this notion of history as the long defeat, the great decline. And to me that's really sad. It's interrupted by the return of the king, of course, our Gondor taking the throne and so on.

[00:45:50] But there's still is this deeper sense, particularly among the else of course. That yeah, this is this is beautiful and wonderful and it's temporary. Right. And looking at the way that Fadazon is interacting with the king in his final days.

[00:46:11] At one point he says, you know, this is what we'll come to. Even a powerful king as if power would be something that could overcome death.

[00:46:26] And I think there's some seeds there. Yes, that we need to look for sprouting in the following seasons that for whatever reason he feels that one quote unquote should. Be able to overcome this one quote unquote should not have to suffer this indignity.

[00:46:47] Hence the look of fear on this face exactly and and the grief because he's I don't know who he's grieving for more for far as all and for himself. He's he's the only we see with the great beard, you know, he definitely worked up his age.

[00:47:07] And I think that's intentional to push him forward along this path. That he seems to be to be following. So to come back to that comparison that we're making between the response of the half its to death and the response of the new menorians to death.

[00:47:28] And I wonder if the very longevity of the new menorians actually makes death far more of an event. If you like something to mark with this, you know, the huge show of grief and mourning with all the black banners flying everywhere.

[00:47:49] Because it isn't something that they are quite as used to in the same way that half of its are who are. We don't know what the lifespan of a half would is, but it's going to be nowhere near the lifespan of a new menorian.

[00:48:06] And therefore death is much more common that cycle is much more visible. Yes, birth through life to death. And that I think is part of the problem for the new menorians is that they are terrified of that cycle. They don't want to even consider that cycle.

[00:48:29] And the longer lived they are, the more death becomes this huge bogemon at the end of this long, long life. Whereas for the half, it's part of the natural cycle of things.

[00:48:40] It's interesting. Well, I think of Mediterranean climate, which I think is what we're supposed to be understanding new and order to have. The seasons change, of course, but the differences are far less observable than it was.

[00:48:54] In fact, it's much more subtle change over time. Now, somebody living in Greece could probably tell me otherwise. Nonetheless, I think that the hardfuts not only live with a more obvious seasonal cycle, but it dictates their lives. And so they cannot pay attention to that.

[00:49:18] And it walks with them and they walk with it. So, yeah, if it doesn't become just one more part of your day in your life, you're going to have some neurotic hardfuts, I think. Yes.

[00:49:32] And, you know, I think Sadok, yes, as you say, Sadok was the leader, he was also somewhat kingly. And he does to my mind look a lot older than most of them, except for Melvin, the sisters.

[00:49:45] So, yes, there are some hardfuts who do attain what appears to be, you know, quite a nice age.

[00:49:52] Some elders. There's definitely elders there. And yet jumping ahead to the end of this episode, Melva actually hands over the trail finding to poppy because she displays an ability to read the maps.

[00:50:08] So, there is respect of elders. But it's not a rule of elders in the end, I think, one might say, or the elders are not absolutely, maybe would be a way of putting it. One of the reasons I hope that their elders is because they have wisdom.

[00:50:23] And so, Melva has the wisdom to see when it's time to pass as long. And, of course, Sadok's death brings out about too, because somebody's got to do to tell finding, yes.

[00:50:34] And so, if you've got a bright youngster here who does appear to have the skill for it. And let us also say, has accumulated some life experience, some very harsh life experience in a very short period of time.

[00:50:48] So, probably does have a lot of wisdom, perhaps more than her age peers. So, there's a number of things I think that combine in the hardwood sense of leadership and dignity and the new and audience sense of those things.

[00:51:08] When your life is shorter and your life is harder, and you confront dangers just as part of your daily life. You're going to grow up quicker, you're going to accrue wisdom and experience quicker. And you're going to be expected to act on that earlier. Yes.

[00:51:29] So, look at the new annoyance who are living until 200 plus still at this time. There obviously are going to have a totally different view of both life and death. Their lives apart from these moments when they're at war are not as dangerous.

[00:51:51] They don't have to confront those kinds of dangers that stalk the half of it's on a daily basis. They also have an origin story of being special. Yes.

[00:52:03] And that really can cover, I mean, I think it's very important for every person to feel that they're special in some sense. Certainly they're unique just like everybody else.

[00:52:14] But more than that, the specialness has to be sort of a foundation for security and oneself perhaps is a way of expressing it.

[00:52:26] But this is more, this is we are the people of the star who were given this island and we earned it and we have a right to it.

[00:52:35] And you know, fair bit of entitlement much maybe sort of and look how in sense they are when an elf comes along and tries to tell them that it was a free gift given to them. Oh no, no, no, no, no.

[00:52:49] We earned it. Yes, we earned this so cold gift. We protest that hard clearly the nerve has been touched. Yes indeed. Okay, so I think that's pretty much it formal that section. And we ready to move on to the next section. Yes, I will carry on with that.

[00:53:16] Gilgallet is highly skeptic of killer brimorous proposal to create a small round mytho object that will allow the power to build until it is all but unbounded. The high king has no wish to invest that much power into one person, even himself calling it perilous.

[00:53:36] Galatio responds at sometimes the perilous path is the only path and such a path brought her there. Gilgallet responds that she should not be standing there at all and that if this had been a solution, it was needed sooner.

[00:53:50] Kilbrimorous says that he had been on the cusp of this for some time but that Halbron provided the idea of creating this object that would have power not of the flesh but over flesh.

[00:54:02] Galatio is highly concerned when she hears those words coming from Kilbrimbo because she lasted them from a daughter when he was describing what's sold on himself. Had been seeking a power of the unseen world.

[00:54:14] Galatio will ask Kilbrimbo where he heard those words and he cannot remember nor does he think it's important because a high king is said to disband the forge. But Elbron asked the king to give him three months simply because he is asking for it.

[00:54:29] The king says this as a false hope nothing more and Elbron responds with the king's own words. Hope is never mere not even what it is mere. And so the forge has restarted with help rend at the heart of all the operations.

[00:54:45] Galatio then asks a lore master to scour the catacombs for any information they may have on the bloodlines of the mortal kings of the Southlands and insists that he tell no one of her request. Several weeks into the work there's an explosion in the forges.

[00:55:03] The myth-real is refusing every effort to bond it with lesser ors. Elbron says that tapping into the powers between the scene and unseed worlds appears to soften the boundaries between the two.

[00:55:16] The Brimbo are things they've used all the pressure of the heavens and the earth and it should have worked. Elbron counsel's patience. Galatio wonders if they've been pushing too hard and Helbron picks up on that idea suggesting that they've been using too much force.

[00:55:31] The Brimbo agrees saying perhaps the metals should be drawn or coaxed together. The archivist comes with a scroll for Galatio and Helbron watches as they depart. Hmm. So Galatio is obviously feeling highly suspicious of Helbron at this point.

[00:55:51] I think she's rethinking some of her choices at this point. And I just put in a pin here and say that this is the first time that I've really been glad with this hiking. Hmm. And thank yes, this is a hiking of whom the harbors could sadly sing.

[00:56:08] Yes, that he says I don't want that much power and I think it's a dangerous thing. It's like oh okay. Thank you sir. Yes.

[00:56:19] So what we get to see here is this consideration of power that we just pointed out, Gil Galad rejects because he rightly says it's far too much for one person to have. But what is this power? What would this power enable someone to do?

[00:56:43] And how does it relate to the unseen world? What are we understanding by the unseen world? Obviously it raises red flags for Galadriel because she's heard about this before, right? Yeah. But what is the unseen world? How are they in this particular adaptation?

[00:57:04] How are they distinguishing between a scene and an unseen world? Because I'm wondering what similarities it has to what we see in a whole or don't see. I see what you did there. I didn't know right?

[00:57:20] I've always had questions about what Tolkien himself meant by the scene in the unseen world. It seemed to me often he used it as a convenience to explain why he had been developed after the death of their bodies and came back.

[00:57:42] Could be said to be in both worlds simultaneously. What does that mean? I wonder if he even knew what he meant by it. It sounds cool and it makes a lot of sense and it creates a wonderful image and so on.

[00:57:57] Just reading this aloud just now, I brought my attention to what Elrond said more closely for the first time that tapping into the powers seems to soften the boundaries between them. And now I'm thinking of the ring raise. Yes, as you should.

[00:58:19] As they were slowly drawn into transgressing those boundaries but they never do appear in both worlds simultaneously, right? They're in this world and they keep fading and they keep fading and they keep fading. Now does that mean that they're entering the other world at the same time?

[00:58:36] I also just a back a minute and say, what does this have to do with healing preservation and knowledge? Which were the functions of the three Elrond rings in the text. And I'm uncomfortable with having Albert and be so closely connected with their making.

[00:58:56] Which of course, in book canon he is not. That's part of the point exactly exactly. So clearly this the show owners are having a different conception of this whole matter and at this point we're not given too many clues as to what they mean by this.

[00:59:15] I mean, I do remember when they were talking about the scene and unseen worlds and the power of not a flesh but over flesh.

[00:59:24] We saw scenes in the castle in the north and these work bodies partly emerging from stone and all of them having clearly, you know, ghastly pain on their faces and so on and so on. So that looked pretty and so look particularly nicer or preserving or whatever now.

[00:59:44] I can't picture sound on being interested in any of those things, you know his concern is power over flesh. Domination that's that's his calling card, that's his middle name. That's his plays on that's what. It's interesting they don't use that word at all at this point.

[01:00:03] Now maybe they want to separate the three from the one, at least to that extent for which a rifle. But we haven't other than those scenes in the castle, I don't know that we really seen anything else that would call up this idea of the unseen world.

[01:00:25] That they know clearly is not the unseen world because you can see it you can write about to it if you are an author whatever and maybe it refers to what happens to humans after they die. You know, is that their unseen world.

[01:00:43] But they haven't given us anything that would lead us to think that. No, but I do feel going along with everything you said they're marlin, I do feel that the show runners have potentially a different view of what the unseen world is than even Tolkien did.

[01:01:00] And you're right, I don't think he really pinpointed exactly what the unseen world is for him.

[01:01:06] What we can tell is that the unseen world is where the ring race truly belong but that's because they've been made almost well they have been made kind of undead by the power of the one ring over the nine.

[01:01:26] And so they are held if you like in the unseen world, which is not a place where mortals are supposed to be. And that when a gloff in del is seen by Frodo as this golden shining figure.

[01:01:44] It's because according to Gandalf that's what he looks like on the other side in the unseen world. Does that mean that because Gloff in del has been returned to Middle Earth that he has had his fair restored, if you like.

[01:02:04] But he has one foot in both worlds because he has experienced a death. Yeah, which is kind of interesting. In which case El Rond definitely despite the fact that he's one of the oldest and wisest in Middle Earth. He can't enter the unseen world.

[01:02:28] So I mean he hasn't been back to Valinor never mind actually had his fair ripped from his body and then being restored. He's never even been in Valinor.

[01:02:39] No, so I just said he's never been to Valinor, so he's definitely not that so can gulantrial because of course she comes from Valinor but she has not experienced a physical death.

[01:02:53] And does that also mean that Sauron can he because he's gone through all sorts of transformations over his time? We know that after the wave, he's so busy sitting there laughing at what he's caused that he gets caught in the wave.

[01:03:13] And he is then ripped from his body and can no longer form a physical presence in the way that he has been able to do before. What does that really mean?

[01:03:24] I don't know what it really means, but I do know my personal thinking on this and I know there are other scholars who think the same is that the one ring does not confer invisibility on you.

[01:03:39] Instead it pulls you into the unseen world because that's where such unnatural power actually truly belongs. Yeah, so your physical self is no longer visible to those who belong in the seeing and seeing world.

[01:04:02] But you're not invisible in the way that we understand invisible. You are pulled into the unseen world, which is not where you belong, which is one of the reasons why those who were the ring change physically mentally. Right. Yeah, they start to fade. Yes.

[01:04:25] But at the same time they get stretched. Yes, because they do not belong partly and one and partly in the other. And I've always associated that stretching with the invisibility that there's so little of your physical body remaining that it almost can't be seen.

[01:04:44] Now I know Blurfender was said to exist in both worlds at once, both belly-naught and middle-earth. And the ring rates appear to be doing the same thing. And so in that sense, the nine do have that function of preservation, which is kind of ironic.

[01:05:07] And then when you think about it, if the elves made the three rings for preservation, that was where they transgressed in the temptation. Because with whatever good intentions they had, preservation is not the mode of middle-earth.

[01:05:25] Middle-earth is the place where things have lifespans and to preserve beyond them is not something that you want to do. So I think we need more information, really. Yes. I think we have enough at this point to understand how the show runners are conceiving of this.

[01:05:45] But I hope we get more in in season two because this is a pretty central concept. To the rings of power. So much. Really? It's supposed to be a central concept to the entire series. It's exactly. Exactly. And then this strikes me.

[01:06:07] I mean, the elves are supposed to be doing magia. That's supposed to be their thing, which is based in nature and natural processes. They just don't seem to get that what their own natural process is.

[01:06:24] You know, that their bodies don't fade over the span of time that they seem to think they're going to i.e. within months. So are they using their magia by making these rings or is it more goatea?

[01:06:40] It just seems to me with all this talk of forcing and and coaxing and melding and so forth. They're trying to impose their will over these materials.

[01:06:52] But over this process. And you know, if it all rests with killer brim wars desire to make something of quote real power. The rings of the show are even more doomed than the rings in the text. So we shall see.

[01:07:11] And I just want to put in a little commercial here to see let's hear it for the power of libraries and archives. Oh, yes. Because Galathery is about to discover something that she is not happy about would you like to tell us what that is?

[01:07:24] I would love to because the last we saw her. She was handed a scroll and she goes off to have a look at that scroll and having done so she is astonished to discover that the line of kings was broken a long time ago.

[01:07:43] Now, of course, this is linked to her understanding. Maybe she's just told herself. This is it that Halbrand is the lost king of the southlands but the line of kings was gone a long time ago.

[01:07:57] But Halbrand comes after her and Galadriel confronts him with the absence of a line of kings in the southlands and Halbrand confesses to his true identity and a very creepy scene.

[01:08:09] In which he admits, I have been awake since before the breaking of the first silence. In that time, I have had many names. And of course, one of them, although not one he would have called himself. Yes, yes, yes.

[01:08:26] Yes, Marlin. Why would he not have called himself, Sauron? I'm trying to remember what the translation is and I don't. His name for himself was Mairon. Yes, it's excellent. Yes, he thought of himself as king excellent actually. Yes, that was his preferred name.

[01:08:44] So remind me what the translation is so on. Sauron is evil, destroyer. That's right. That's kind of thing. Yeah. Not what he would have chosen for himself at all. Okay. The big bad. The big bad. Yes.

[01:09:01] Galadriel, obviously not happy with this development tries to stab him with Finn Rod's dagger. Only to find herself seemingly back in Fallen or she thinks she's talking to Finn Rod, but it becomes clear to us and to her.

[01:09:17] Eventually that Sauron, in fact, is in her brother Finn Rod's form and tries to convince her that his task is not to destroy Middle-earth, but to heal it.

[01:09:29] That's actually interesting, Marilyn isn't it because this has often been talked about in terms of the difference between Sauron and Melkor. Melkor just wanted to destroy everything and engender chaos.

[01:09:43] Whereas Sauron wanted to rule over everything but to make it and shape it in the way that he saw fit. So he didn't want to destroy everything. He wanted everything under his domain. Right. Under his domination.

[01:10:01] As they would say, in D&D, parlance, Morgaf is chaotic evil and Sauron could be considered lawful evil. Yes, exactly right. So, Galadriel realizes that this is only a trick. It's Sauron speaking in her mind.

[01:10:20] All these scenes that we get in this moment, they're all like visions if you like. She's pulled into by Sauron because the scene then shifts to that raft on the sea that we saw all the way back at the beginning of the season.

[01:10:35] And Sauron says he knew that if he was ever to be forgiven, he would have to heal everything that he had helped ruin.

[01:10:44] Now, again, for those who maybe haven't delved as deeply into the lore, there is in fact a time in which Sauron sought forgiveness that he looked for redemption.

[01:10:58] Didn't last all that long and of course we know that he turned away from that path again anyway, but there was actually a time in which he was seeking redemption.

[01:11:10] Anyway, go, go, Marilyn. Just one note here, notice the massive scale on which he is thinking, I'll have to heal everything I have ruined as if you're going to bring back a bunch of lives.

[01:11:29] You're going to do this, you're going to do that. So even in this repentance, you see this aggrandizement in a way and not a shred of humility. No, no, because he has the power to heal everything. Nor is there any sense of remorse.

[01:11:51] And that's why I think he didn't want to go back to Montwayne, be judged and humiliated and put in jail and all those other things.

[01:11:59] But just this other thing, he wants to rule. He wants to order. He wants to structure and discipline to his view, which is another way of saying he wants to be God. And yes, that job is already taken. So yeah, go and have it.

[01:12:16] So back to the scene, he reminds Galadriel that she was the one who told him to be free of whatever evil he had done. Nice bit of gaslighting there, of course. Thanks, Sauron.

[01:12:28] Galadriel says that that is not possible and that there is no future between the two of them, despite the shadowy image he shows her of the two of the ruling together. And a lot of this scene actually I thought was pretty clever.

[01:12:42] Galadriel rejects this because Sauron cannot see any difference between saving middle earth or ruling it. He just doesn't see that there is a difference. Yeah, he wants to save it for himself, not for the sake of saving middle earth.

[01:13:01] Right, the famous saying, be reasonable. Do in my way. Hmm. Sauron asks what the elves will do to her when she tells them that Sauron lives because of her.

[01:13:15] Now again, I mean this seems like enormous manipulation to me because there is absolutely no way that Sauron was going to be killed by some marauding invader who leaves him at the side of the road. Um, this is no utter nonsense.

[01:13:32] Yes, this is all manipulation and this manipulation has got him into Gil Galad's stronghold and allowed him to manipulate Kalibrimbo. So if you're trying to tell me this wasn't all planned then, I don't know.

[01:13:51] I'm sure season one episode one and I'm also thinking back to Gil Galad's saying to Elrond that Galadriel's intense efforts to track down and eliminate Sauron could actually be the breath that's blowing the sparks that you know causes the fire.

[01:14:13] Now maybe he came up with this notion independently or maybe he didn't. It might even have been dropped into his ear by some unknown figure because Sauron was wearing a different disguise at that point.

[01:14:28] I mean, I think we're going to have a lot of backstory about how this whole thing got set up. I hope we're going to have a lot of facts. Hmm, I have a whole episode of in the very first episode of season two.

[01:14:40] And it is true the one that one thing and all this morass of lies and so forth and have trees. She did say to how brand to be free of whatever you will he had done.

[01:14:55] She wasn't saying it to Sauron, but in the moment under the pressure of this dominating mind and this evil genius and all the rest of it, it's very hard to parse that out and say no actually that's not true. I would never say that to you, Sauron.

[01:15:13] I may have said these words but they were not being spoken to you.

[01:15:18] Hmm, but at this point how and when she going to find the courage and the humility to say this to the elves and he does have a point what are they going to do when they start to learn all this.

[01:15:33] Yeah, but she's the one who brought him in. Hmm, and this is a wonderful example of Goadia that Sauron is using here projecting these images taking on different forms. All the things that we see happening here.

[01:15:50] Fortunately, Galadogadogadogad is sufficiently wise to be able to see through them and reject them, but it's it's pretty potent. Yes, yes it is. I don't think there's anything ritualistic It is Stím bye.

[01:16:10] However, I don't think that there is anything ritualistic in this particular scene but literally it's such interesting scene. It is such interesting scene, and well worth picking apart, definitely. Okay. Do you want to do the next section? Suddenly, she hears Elirons' voice calling her name.

[01:16:27] He pulls her from the river Glenduin, and after convincing her that he really is Elirons, Galagher approaches to the workshop with Elirons following her demanding an Elirons' habit. In the workshop, Elirons asks where Elirons is, and Galagheril says that he is gone, and

[01:16:44] she doubts that he will return, but if he does return, no one should treat with him again. Galagheril demands to know what has happened by the stream, and Galagheril eludes to his promise to trust her whatever happens.

[01:17:00] Elirons says that she's making it hard to keep the promise, and she replies, where it easy, it would not demand trust. Galagheril says they must make three rings, because one will always corrupt, and two will divide. Kalibrimboir finishes, but with three, there is balance.

[01:17:20] Kalibrimboir tells Galagheril that he requires high-quality gold and silver from value nor. So, she must sacrifice her brother's dagger, and he reminds her that true creation requires sacrifice. So, Gil Galagheril doesn't have any nice gold and silver from value nor lying around? Evidently not!

[01:17:42] And besides, you know, Plots boil it, right? Yes. And it's a huge moment, because she is giving up that link, that tangible link. But I think it's also a version of what Elirons urged her to do in the first episode, which is to put down your sword. Right?

[01:18:04] Just I hope she's already given away the actual sword. Yes, the other. So maybe this is the final step in that process of transformation. So before we go any further, I know you've got some interesting thoughts about this conversation

[01:18:25] about how one will corrupt, two will divide, but three provides balance. So go on, Marlin, tell us about that. Yeah, I just, I question, is there balance in three's? I mean, I know three is an important number, particularly in the Celtic traditions, although

[01:18:41] of course we see it growing over into Christian tradition and many others as well. But it usually indicates motion, I'm thinking particularly in the context of interpreting of taro, for instance, which again is rests in a lot of very ancient systems.

[01:19:00] On the other hand, well we usually think of balance as being something stationary. That word balance actually comes from the same root as the word ballet to dance or to move. So it seems to imply that motion is actually required to maintain balance.

[01:19:18] And to many of us that might seem contradictory, personally I still think forward we were stable. But I think in terms of why it was three, Tolkien certainly is strongly influenced by the Celtic mythology and other things of that nature.

[01:19:38] So I think of the else as flowing and of the humans as stability. And so there you would get your three and your four except again, the humans got nine in the end but that's another number that we can talk about later if it ever comes up.

[01:19:55] Yeah, and it might well do because this is called the Rings of Power. Yeah, yeah, I think we're going to see a few more ring creations before all of a sudden done. Yes, I think so too. So do you want us to take us back to the harfots?

[01:20:09] Oh, yes, please. Okay. So Nory and the stranger sit by the tree that he healed in a previous episode. He realizes that he has to go to room now to recover more power and understanding.

[01:20:24] He explains that his star means wizard or wise one in Nory's tongue and says, but times our paths are laid before us by powers greater than our own. In those moments, it's our task to make our feet go where our hearts wish not to

[01:20:38] tread no matter the perils awaiting us along the way. And that's a reflection of Galadriel's words to Theo in the episode The Eye. And we've noticed a number of times haven't we how we get this mirroring of moments and words and things like that.

[01:20:56] Yeah, yes, it's another example of that happening. Obviously, the stranger has gained an ability to communicate very well at this point. Well, if you're going to pick up something from a certain awakening to your power of communication and speech, it's probably a good first step.

[01:21:12] I would say so. Yes. And then goes on to say, alone, it's just a journey. Now adventures they must be shared. Nory says she thinks she's had about as much adventure as any harfot could have a hopeful and she turns to join her community.

[01:21:30] The harfots prepared to take up the trail again and Malva decides that POPP should be the trailfinder since she can read them up so well. Of course, they have to have a new trailfinder because Sadok is no longer there. You know, with Malvok. Yeah, in hand.

[01:21:45] Yeah, someone needs to interpret it. Absolutely. Malva says she wishes that Sadok was still with them and her sister says he is, which I think that illuminates everything we were talking about in that death scene earlier. I agree.

[01:22:02] Nory finds that her family have packed her traveling sack and they help her to realize that she really does need to go with the stranger. They say you're a part of something bigger now.

[01:22:13] They bid her farewell and POPP make sure that she has all that she needs before she goes. Largo fears that he hasn't taught his daughter anything, but Nory reassures him. And they share a symbolic series of gestures of farewell.

[01:22:27] Marigold tells her to find where the river runs and where the sparrows learn their songs. The family shares a group hug and POPP returns for a real host farewell with Nory. Nory and the stranger go off following their noses and the harfots follow their usual trail.

[01:22:44] So we have a ritual farewell. Yes, and it's really interesting to me because it was clearly intentional and formulaic. They're facing one another and each takes the others ear in their right hand and they touch their foreheads together.

[01:23:03] They then touch their right hands each to their own hearts, classed their right hands together between them and then touch their foreheads together again with the classed hands between them. Mm-hmm. Yes, clearly an understood ritual, POPP's of the community consciousness,

[01:23:21] something that they've had passed down to them, but I'm a bit of a problem here. Yes. I have a question. How and why did they develop this very elaborate ritual if nobody is supposed to go off trail and nobody walks alone? Why would they have a farewell ritual?

[01:23:37] Hello. Yeah. And it's not something that I can see them doing when someone's on their deathbed if they have that opportunity even. They certainly weren't doing it with Saddug. Right. They just sat and watched the sunrise. I have no answers for you, Saddug.

[01:23:55] I really don't know, but as I was writing it down, it just struck me. Where did this come from? I mean, is it just a brandy foot thing? Did they develop a knife so? I guess maybe there've been a few brandy foot that have wanted off trail before.

[01:24:13] Yeah, it's just, it's a big puzzle. I mean, it's a beautiful moment. Mm-hmm. You know, a farewell embodied in gestures and very loving and close and intimate gestures. But good-gulling, Ms. Molly. When did you practice it? Yes. Yes, it was a challenge.

[01:24:33] What the gestures were, though, was it written down in the book somewhere? Did you see somebody else do it? Yes, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think it might be more interesting in some ways.

[01:24:45] If Nori had gone to say goodbye to her father and they sort of looked at each other and said, well, we don't know how to do this. Yeah, that would have been interesting because usually they're going off trail is not intentional. Maybe.

[01:24:59] I mean, maybe there is some more to the hard foot pass that we haven't heard about yet. And because of that, they developed this code of nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone. But they haven't forgotten this other piece. I don't know, it's just really fascinating.

[01:25:19] I don't know much about the history of the development of special handshakes and other kinds of things. But I do have the sense that they're designed to distinguish you from the rest of the group or whatever.

[01:25:33] But I don't know that the brandy fits character distinguish themselves, particularly in fact the whole episode. They've been trying to show, yes, we're part of you. Don't leave us behind. Yeah. I didn't know listeners, right in. Yeah, suggestions. What do you write about it? I don't know.

[01:25:47] I don't know. Okay, we have the last section there, Marilyn, take it away. Yes. Galadriel yields a per dagger to the forge and Elron yields up his piece of nithril, which by the way is also a huge sacrifice because it's potentially his last link to his friend and

[01:26:05] his friendship with Doren. Yes, it is. The resulting pool forms something that looks remarkably like a red eye with a slip pupil. The Elvin Smiths begin their crafting. Elron goes back to the river and discovers the scroll with the southlander list of kings.

[01:26:23] He returns in time to see the three Elvin rings that creation accomplished. But Galadriel sees that he has found the scroll and turns away from his gaze. Galabri and Bor has eyes from nothing but the rings.

[01:26:37] Their image morphs into the iris of Sauron's eye as he stands all in black on the border of Mothdor. Don't, don't, don't, don't. And the Erisong begins. Yes. Yeah. So they, the eye with the slip pupil.

[01:26:56] I mean there's all kinds of Sauron imagery in Dron on an of course real call back to. Jackson's imagery of Sauron. Oh yeah. And I didn't actually recognize it until I started writing this to an ops, and I said oh there's

[01:27:10] an eye it's not okay three eyes look at that. And three rings have been created. Yes. So having just recently been exposed to some wonderful ideas about Alchemy. What would you say as a brief sort of overview here?

[01:27:30] What are the alchemical aspects or images that might appear in this whole process of the forging in the creation of the rings? Okay, so I don't know how much the listeners know about Alchemy. But there are a few things that I could bring up

[01:27:52] just to give you a little bit of an Alchemy 101 if you like. First of all, Alchemy is all about transformation and change. It's about moving from one state to another. It's about moving from a base state we think of lead

[01:28:12] into the higher state and we think they're of gold. And that when we think of Alchemy, we often think of people in laboratories desperately trying to turn a lump of lead into a nice shiny lump of gold.

[01:28:29] But in actual fact, that is not really what they were about. It's not really what they were doing. What they were doing was a very spiritual journey which was turning the base self.

[01:28:41] The self that is in the world and the world is full of bad things and ugliness. And you're absorbing all of that, but you want to achieve a higher state of being so that when you die your soul will actually ascend.

[01:29:06] All right. So the process of Alchemy was in the physical sense about turning lead into gold. But in the spiritual sense, it was about turning the lead in state of the person into a

[01:29:23] wholeness, a oneness with an acceptance of everything about yourself and a rising above all of the bad stuff, if you like. So turning yourself from lead into gold, if you like. Now with Tolkien, I have written before on why the one ring I don't believe is actually

[01:29:52] gold because if gold is the product at the end of an alchemical process that signifies the success of that process and the purity of the end game, the rising above if you like.

[01:30:08] How can the one ring be that? So if you want to read about that, it is available. It's in Malone so do go ahead and have a read if you're interested. But yeah, Marillins question here was about do the else use Alchemy in the creations of three rings?

[01:30:28] All right, I would say that they might be attempting something that we could point to as being like an alchemical process because in Alchemy the most important thing was about balance.

[01:30:42] So you had to balance everything. The hot must be balanced with the cold, the light and the dark must be balanced. All those ideas that we have about a human nature, about the world around us,

[01:30:57] everything needs to be in balance because if it isn't, then you are not going to achieve the purity of the end result which of course was the philosopher stone which then produced the gold,

[01:31:08] which was the transmutation of the salt. Anyway, one of the conversations that the elves are having about the problem is that they cannot get a fusion of mesreal with any of the other metals.

[01:31:24] It will not bind with them. It will not come together and in Alchemy we called that Solveet Coagula which is to break it down and then to bring it together. They can break down their metals but they cannot bring them together and the conversation is about how they're

[01:31:46] they're applying. All of the power that they can and all of the pressure that they can and of course, Galadriel then has the idea that maybe they're doing too much of that because that's going to push it off balance. You're not going to achieve balance by throwing everything

[01:32:04] trying to make something happen. You have to look for where the balance is out. The coagula part is not going to be achieved if there's too much of one thing, not enough of another thing and that includes how they're trying to make mesreal actually bond with other metals.

[01:32:25] So it does actually have resonances of an alchemical process because they're trying to take something that is in this sense more of a base metal and something else that is a more

[01:32:42] grand metal if you like but to make of all of that something that is extraordinary that will enable them to heal the elves. Now, whatever we think about with an ethrenium is something separate to this conversation but it looks like what they're trying to do is very similar

[01:33:04] to what the alchemists were trying to do which was to introduce lots of different elements into the alembeck, the vessel in which all of this was taking place and to actually bring them together and from that bringing together, from that balancing of everything would come a new element

[01:33:28] and this new element was the important thing. The thing that would bring the transmutation of the soul here in this scene it's about bringing all of these things together to produce

[01:33:41] that which will save the elves. So the fact that they finally do achieve it we have to look at well what did they do to finally achieve it and they adjusted the process and they tried to find

[01:33:59] the balance and finally succeeded in bringing things together to actually create these rings. So the process is interesting because we can see how they're trying to work through that the end result of course looking at what we're doing here because the showrunners have

[01:34:22] moved things around and we have the three rings of the elves made before all of the other rings. Are they going to keep those three rings as the pure rings that they were in the books

[01:34:36] because they were untouched, unsullied by sound ons hand and so you could point to them as being the perfect end result of bringing together because they've got to be bringing together to make these rings out, to be bringing together more than just metal. These rings are designed to

[01:35:00] preserve to be part of the way in which the elves can be caretakers of the land around them. That's more than just one metal and another metal brought together. There's got to be something else

[01:35:14] that is actually within that which if we then look at the one ring we can see the other end of that spectrum because it isn't just gold it is a bringing together it's another alloy

[01:35:28] in that it's a bringing together of stuff including sourons will and that is the corrupting factor that stops it from being pure gold. I don't know how helpful or useful any of this is.

[01:35:42] Now that was excellent really very good and I think I hope that that's given listeners a lot to think about and maybe even go back and be watched that scene because everywhere I look I mean even the shape of one of the pieces of equipment across the top

[01:36:01] it looked like an Olympic because there was a big circle in the middle and then this one sort of spout leading out that eventually poured the liquids into three separate chant. I didn't

[01:36:11] understand that whole process at all maybe listeners can write in until they talked about it but in particular I'm thinking again back to that sentence from Elron that tapping into the powers between the scene and the unseen worlds appear to soften the boundaries between

[01:36:29] is that another outchemical joining that these rings are accomplishing intended or otherwise abolishing all softening a bound that implies maybe this is one of the things they're trying to do is to bring it together in that fashion. Right I mean you know from your

[01:36:52] class of already learned how extensively these concepts are spread throughout our cultures I call it the non-corporial cultural DNA of you know Egypt and the fertile crescent in western Europe and so on and so on. So I would love to know just how much the show

[01:37:13] what is we're thinking of alchemy when they produced all this because I got to say the forge didn't look like something elvished to me it looked a lot more like almost a rub go broke style you know steam punk sort of mechanical and I couldn't really understand where

[01:37:33] the things were going and why they came up with one piece of middle-thin and then they split into three and then you know if he works so hard to put the three together why do you then

[01:37:42] split apart and make a nith real ring you know so there there was just a lot there I didn't understand but I'm not elvish so. And even when you pain or okay and no no I'm not I am not.

[01:37:58] I hope that case a listen to something extra to think about like I said if anyone's interested in any more on alchemy and reading Tolkien through alchemy there's my paper in Malon on the

[01:38:12] one ring but also if you search for me in YouTube there is actually a recorded lecture on alchemy and the Lord of the Rings it's only about half an hour and it's like a sort of a beginner's guide to

[01:38:25] I don't want anybody out there thinking that I am some kind of expert on alchemy I'm really not but I have used the metaphor of alchemy to look at the ways in which it appears in literature and

[01:38:40] arts. I think people don't realize how much it penetrated medieval culture and since course Tolkien was drawing heavily for medieval culture and in his world building as we say now I think it makes sense that once you have the vocabulary in the imagery these things just sort of

[01:39:01] start to pop up everywhere you look. Yeah that's great thank you so much. You're welcome. So that's it for this episode. Right in and let us know what you've thought about this

[01:39:13] episode and of the show as a whole. Any thoughts about season two and anything else you'd like to share with us? We welcome your feedback by July 9th at Rings and Rituals at TheLoreHounds.com

[01:39:27] or on TheLoreHounds Discord server where we have a special channel set up just for Rings and Rituals. So on TheLoreHounds website there is also a contact form and a voice mail feature

[01:39:38] look for the contact us link at the bottom as a page and we plan to publish a bonus episode on music and ritual with Marilyn and John Lawound on July 10th and then our final feedback episode

[01:39:48] on July 24th. Also be sure to check out the other podcasts supported by the Barobi and brought casting network. We've got radioactive ramblings with Aaron and Chase who are currently doing lorapisos on the series Fallout. We have the properly Howard movie review with Steven Anthony

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[01:40:29] is the Star Wars canon timeline podcast there's lots of good information in there for all those who want to get the background on the acolyte and of course John and David on the main lorcast. Marker and of course John and David on the main lorhound's podcast currently reviewing

[01:40:47] season one of House of the Dragon in advance of season two doing acolyte and preparing for season two of the rings of power along with a whole lot of other goodness. There's a link tree for all

[01:40:58] of these in the show notes below. I'm just plenty for people to go and explore right? I wear things so it's a lot to keep up with let me tell you. I'm sure. So our thanks to our

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[01:41:51] Not getting until we meet again. This summer we enter a new era of star wars. You mean the dawn of the Star Wars cannon timeline podcast? Yeah yeah sure that too but I was obviously

[01:42:23] talking about the acolyte. We've got to cover that on the lorhounds. Oh but the Star Wars cannon timeline podcast is exactly at that point in the timeline the end of the hybrid public 100 years before the prequel trilogy we've got to cover it there. Why not both?

[01:42:41] Okay deal. It's the first live action star war outside the Skywalker saga. Nobody can miss this. Listeners kick off your hot lorh summer weekends with seemed by seem breakdowns of the acolyte found in both the Star Wars cannon timeline podcast and the lorhounds mother feed.

[01:42:58] And the lorhounds star wars feed. Wherever you like to listen a couple of days after each new episode is released.