Partings - S01E05

[00:00:12] Hello and welcome to Episode 5 of Rings and Rituals, Partings from the Painemake series Rings

[00:00:19] of Power. I'm Sara Shield Maiden of Rohan.

[00:00:22] And I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Riven Del, and we're delighted that you've joined us.

[00:00:27] Today we'll be reviewing what we mean by ritual, and then applying those concepts to

[00:00:31] different examples of ritual that we find in this fifth episode of the TV series.

[00:00:36] We'll explore them using a set of questions to reveal how pain and decay depicted

[00:00:40] cultures that they were adapting to their series.

[00:00:43] Now today's episode also includes a special bonus with the introduction of three rather

[00:00:48] noticeable new characters we will have a brief introduction to the history of magic

[00:00:53] and how it is and is not connected with ritual. Be sure to get in touch with us. A discussion of

[00:00:59] two isn't even sure, but we'd love to have more voices join us. You can email us at Rings and Rituals

[00:01:06] at Velourhounds.com and you can join our Rings and Rituals channel on the Lourhounds discord.

[00:01:13] We'll include all that information in the show notes. And we also want to say that we're a

[00:01:17] proud affiliate of the Lourhounds Barovian broadcasting network where you will find all sorts

[00:01:21] of interesting podcasts on TV, films, books, video games, and other stories. Now thanks to all

[00:01:28] the listeners who support the Lourhounds through good ratings on Apple iTunes, joining the

[00:01:33] Lourhounds Patreon and other forms of donation. If you like what we're doing here, consider

[00:01:37] giving them a boost as well. Now as our regular listeners know, we like to start with the review

[00:01:44] of our definition of ritual, particularly for anyone who might be joining us for the first time.

[00:01:47] So Marilyn, what do we mean by ritual? By ritual, we mean a repeated action. It's usually intended

[00:01:55] to recognize or bring about change. It often has symbolic content, but not always. I don't think

[00:02:03] there's much symbolic about me brushing my teeth three times a day after meals, but it is a ritual

[00:02:10] to preserve my health. Ritual may be a form of meaning-making, which does not have to be religious or

[00:02:17] spiritual. If you think of communities that like together together and watch fireworks, sometimes

[00:02:22] they're at specific historic events, and this becomes a means of remembering and making

[00:02:30] meaning in terms of this is part of our cultural heritage. And in addition to this reinforcement

[00:02:38] of communal community marker, in addition to this reinforcement of communal identity,

[00:02:48] there are also solitary and or personal rituals, so it doesn't always have to be with a group.

[00:02:54] It can certainly be in an individual people. And often ritual gives structure and meaning to the

[00:03:01] unimaginable. And it may include humor, which can help one to bear the unbearable.

[00:03:06] So we'll keep those points in mind as we describe each ritual and we've in the following types

[00:03:11] of questions. What is the design of the ritual? What is the intent of the ritual? What is the outcome?

[00:03:16] And also most particularly what does it tell us about the culture and the individuals in that

[00:03:22] culture? We're going to take a quick break now. And when we come back, we'll bring you the meat

[00:03:28] or the tofu for the Indian Vegetarian listeners without the quail sauce.

[00:03:45] Welcome back! We're going to review the ritual elements that we saw in this fifth episode,

[00:03:50] but to aid our listeners' memories will also include a synopsis of events.

[00:03:55] Though, to save time, we may leave out one or two small scenes or compile some things out of order

[00:04:00] for the sake of continuity. Please note, we are doing full unspoilers throughout these episodes.

[00:04:06] If that isn't what you want, go and binge the entire season and then come back and join us.

[00:04:12] Okay, Marilyn, do you want to start with the first synopsis? Sure thing.

[00:04:18] Noodie tries to explain to the stranger what migration is all about. It has nothing to do with his big

[00:04:24] thumb. He thinks that he himself is a peril, but noodie is sure it's him that he is good.

[00:04:31] At the Brandy Foot's encouragement, Poppy sings her mother's walking song to their great delight.

[00:04:40] So this is a very, very beautiful song which contains elements of the Harquit's culture.

[00:04:48] And some of them are kind of obscure. We don't know what sleeping on Black Sand is all about,

[00:04:55] although we've made a lot of guesses that people can go and google the whole song and what does

[00:05:00] this line mean in that line mean. But for the Harfits, it has a number of different meanings.

[00:05:05] I think both for them is a group but also Poppy individually. They call it her mother's walking song.

[00:05:12] Right. It tells me it was something that her mother created and shared with the community.

[00:05:20] And of course as we learned in the previous episode, all of Poppy's family are dead, including her mother.

[00:05:26] So when they're first urging you to sing it, I could imagine that her refusal was partly because

[00:05:32] the associations that were still pretty sharp and full of grief. She might not have wanted to do that.

[00:05:39] But communal Harfit that she is, she wants to support her community.

[00:05:46] And so as they are shouting to her, come on Poppy, come on, Poppy. Come on, Poppy. Give us a two.

[00:05:53] She starts to sing in the old cheer. So it's a lovely moment. It's a beautiful moment.

[00:06:00] Yeah, poor Poppy. Yeah. I really feel for her. You know, it's so sad the way that we get

[00:06:10] drip fed the news that she is in fact an orphan that she is completely alone within such a community

[00:06:16] minded people as the Harfit. She is one. And so I suppose doubly reliant on the embrace of

[00:06:26] community because she doesn't have family on whom to rely. I suppose that Nori and her family

[00:06:34] other closest Poppy now has to any kind of family, right? I would think so. I would think so.

[00:06:39] And maybe this is why she's always the one to hold back in caution where Nori is the one who wants

[00:06:45] to push ahead. Yeah. She's no wonder she's a little cautious though, right? Well, exactly.

[00:06:51] She's experienced that life could be really difficult and painful in challenging. And yet

[00:06:58] she maintains this friendship with Nori which is wonderful. And I also wonder if this might not

[00:07:04] have become a personal ritual for Poppy. Yeah, her mother, her son, um, there are cultures in

[00:07:11] which people will inherit songs from, you know, their parents or their grandparents or something.

[00:07:19] And it is known as So and So's Song and other people would not presume to sing it.

[00:07:26] Same thing with poetry. Or it's storytelling in particular, many of the indigenous people in this

[00:07:32] continent believe that a story belongs to the person who tells it. And you never tell it yourself

[00:07:40] without asking their permission. I'd probably working with him for a while and explaining

[00:07:46] why you want to tell it. You know, it's it is considered a personal possession because it was an

[00:07:52] act of creation by the one who originated that story. Right. Here is Poppy's mother's act of creation

[00:08:01] and right now Poppy hasn't inherited it, you might say. Yeah. And even though we do see the book

[00:08:10] that Sadok has, we get the sense that they are steeped in an oral tradition, the half-foot.

[00:08:18] Because there is the book and Sadok keeps it. Right. The rest of them don't seem to have access to it.

[00:08:24] So if you're going to pass things down, it's going to be from family member to family member via

[00:08:31] oral tradition or as a community via oral tradition and a walking song, how much more perfect

[00:08:38] could that be for the half-foot's? And as you say, there's so much ritual actually built into

[00:08:45] the song itself because it names so many different places that are important to the half-foot.

[00:08:53] It actually builds them into the walking song. So you have the whole idea of a walking song is a ritual

[00:09:00] in and off itself but then built in, you've got all of these places that have importance and

[00:09:05] significance to their culture. In fact it's almost a bit of a trailfinder isn't it?

[00:09:11] Because they're talking about, okay the sun is falling past trees of stone.

[00:09:17] To me that says the sun is falling behind the misty mountains now. Now of course it does that every day

[00:09:23] but it must be doing so in a particular location. Right. It's a cup of time and that's one of the

[00:09:29] signals to say, okay it's time to pack up and get moving. Right. And as not of course it's how they

[00:09:34] mark the passage of time is via the seasons. Yes. Yes. And then you have subsequent mentions

[00:09:40] of different what could be geographic or geological locations. And so okay yeah so we have to

[00:09:47] head to that place where all the black sand is and we have to get it by this certain time

[00:09:53] and if we don't get there then we don't have the food source that we need. I mean there's potentially

[00:10:00] a lot of information there for them. I also think it's just simply a way to help the steps pass.

[00:10:09] Oh yes, yeah because it's a long old trek and you're hauling your house and this is a way

[00:10:16] perhaps to be able to forget a little bit. You know how it hurts and you get a haul this thing out

[00:10:23] of us swap and they show us scenes of all the different things that they're encountering. And yeah

[00:10:29] that makes sense. I mean think about all the Hollywood films where you see the soldiers running

[00:10:34] and they're doing their old marine chanting saying right, you know the I don't know but I've been

[00:10:39] told kind of chanting that yes has a sort of cool response right kind of saying when it helps the

[00:10:45] steps and the time to pass. And there is a name for that and Sir Terry Pratchett mentioned

[00:10:50] it in one of one of his wonderful books and I can't remember what he calls it but maybe some

[00:10:55] listener will know and write us into reminders. Oh yes please that would be great. And apart from

[00:11:00] anything else just you know as a last word on this song it's a great song it is. I loved it. It was

[00:11:08] honestly it lived in my head rent free for weeks. It was wonderful and anytime it comes up

[00:11:15] boom I got to go through the whole thing all the way to the end. And interesting sort of pun to

[00:11:22] there is in Scotland a tradition of walking songs WAU LKING which is what the women sing when they're

[00:11:34] walking the wool. It's in a shallow long wooden tray as it were with with water or some of the

[00:11:44] liquid that we don't want to think about too much. So yeah let us say pungeon and they're literally

[00:11:53] walking up and down on top of the wool to break down the fibers and do whatever else it does

[00:11:59] technically which I'm afraid I've reached the limit of my knowledge but they have all these songs

[00:12:05] that they sing that are rhythmic and encouraged the walk walking without the you so they can walk

[00:12:11] with the wool. So I don't know if they were thinking about this when they called her mother's walking

[00:12:18] song or not but that's what came into my head when I'm. Some lovely cultural connections anyway

[00:12:26] for sure for sure and it helps them bear that which might be unbearable.

[00:12:34] Yes, most emotionally for Poppy and physically for any of the

[00:12:40] any of the hardwoods. Indeed would you like to take us forward to the next

[00:12:46] synopsis? Yes because now we meet some really interesting individuals because back at the landing

[00:12:53] place of the strangers meteorite we meet the hissesisters who are gazing at the crater where he landed

[00:12:59] and one of them goes down stretches out their hand towards the crater and seems to convey to

[00:13:04] their fellows this is the place. All these folks are creepy they really are. They really are and

[00:13:14] drawing from a number of different cultural cues. Now hissesisters is my name for them and I

[00:13:21] derived it from the hissing music that usually accompanies them whenever they show up. They never

[00:13:26] hissed themselves so let's put that out there right away. One of them never makes a sound at all

[00:13:33] either too we don't hear making any sounds for quite some time but they do eventually speak.

[00:13:40] So what are they? Well what do they look like? It's easier to say what they're not I think although

[00:13:48] a lot of people have called them a lot of different things that was really quite fascinating.

[00:13:52] Right and that's got a lot to do with how they are dressed, how they present themselves,

[00:13:57] what they carry, more sorts of things that come together to raise actually I think more questions than

[00:14:04] answers at this point though. I think so from the beginning I should make it clear that

[00:14:11] they're not ritualists that we ever see. Not so far? No. Why are we talking about them in a

[00:14:18] podcast about ritual? Well there definitely uses a magic I would say and oh this absolutely yes even

[00:14:26] at this very early stage we get that sense but certainly later on spoiler alert we get a

[00:14:33] far more definite indication that they are indeed magic users. Yes well in this instance she's

[00:14:39] using a magic to read energy in the earth and some people like call that gomancy I don't know if

[00:14:44] that's an accurate application or not. That's good wood and I'm saying she but this particular

[00:14:52] of the three called the dweller never actually says anything at all so she has to communicate in

[00:15:02] other ways. So we have this sort of gray white clothing it's very drapey, very distinctive jewelry

[00:15:10] which I think lets out the notion that you can call them the aesthetics because I'm sorry I just

[00:15:15] don't think any aesthetic or that fancy in their jewelry or they're clothing. So the accoutchements

[00:15:24] as you mentioned really interesting and puzzling it something that looks like a serving platter one

[00:15:29] in them has. One of them has a staff which on the top of it is full of what I consider to be

[00:15:35] Egyptian like symbology you know the the horns of their calagatus and the disc of ISIS and

[00:15:45] effect that whole top thing looks very much like what ISIS has on top of her head and in one of

[00:15:51] iconography and of course ISIS is the goddess of magic in Egypt so there's that next one.

[00:15:59] Yes another really fun connection that is my own personal head cannon. One of them has a very close

[00:16:05] fitting cap or head gear with little tuffty ears pointing up on that aside which definitely reminds me

[00:16:11] of cats I called it the cat helmet at one point. It reminds me of best who is the cat goddess

[00:16:21] Egypt and particularly efficacious for women. I can't remember she brings good fortune or not but

[00:16:30] you know cats are very often associated with witches and I think that's probably why the show

[00:16:34] runners through that little detail in there because they consider them to be witches. Now I would

[00:16:40] take great exception to that notion because of my knowledge of witchcraft and ancient and contemporary.

[00:16:51] I won't go into Morty Tales now because we're going to talk about magical later on but

[00:16:55] yes that's another name that I'm afraid I would reject. Yeah I'm on your side but this one

[00:17:04] I think that pain and amacase idea of them being witches is a rather derogatory term now

[00:17:14] and also as we'll hear in the moment there definitely perceived as being lesser which slightly

[00:17:22] great. Oh yeah yeah particularly given their I think their gender reads mostly feminine although

[00:17:29] there is one that is very almost asexual in the way. Mm-hmm so what yeah I mean

[00:17:36] the one with the close-cropped hair who says nothing it seems almost a gender exactly yeah exactly

[00:17:44] yeah so what do pain and mk actually say about these people then Marilyn?

[00:17:50] Well there's a publication on the movie where dub com site which has them giving a bit of an

[00:17:59] interview about it and pain says I think what you're reading is there are glimpses into the

[00:18:03] unseen world which I would definitely say is accurate so they're speaking from the point of

[00:18:10] view of the entire series so this gonna be mentioned here are some things that we haven't seen yet

[00:18:14] in this go around which is why I hope people will be binging before they are listening to this so

[00:18:19] they don't get spoiled unless I want to you know that's fine. So mk says we're riffing on the

[00:18:26] visual language of that but we also like the idea that there are different forms of magic and

[00:18:32] Tolkien. Visual storytelling hopefully suggests that these witches are lesser conjurers

[00:18:37] than one of the wizards would be there's your word lesser. Can you hear my teeth grinding?

[00:18:42] I'm yeah I think you better get your mouthgarg out yeah and our best did here but they escape

[00:18:49] in another form now that's an interesting piece of information there was a lot of speculation you

[00:18:54] were they actually completely banished? Did they say they're not well I think that's what all

[00:19:00] those butterflies are all about. There are two appearance in the world of the unseen is hideous

[00:19:05] and horrible and some kind of magic is making them beautiful which is interesting.

[00:19:11] While the visual language is a little similar to the nautical we're also thinking about mkbath

[00:19:16] and we're thinking about the old crumbs and the three witches and just trying to come up with

[00:19:20] something strange and weird. Thank you very much. A little more to say about that. We know they

[00:19:27] come from prune and we know that there are magic cults in prune which is one of the things Tolkien

[00:19:33] writes about so maybe there's a slightly different kind of magic and we can peel back the layers

[00:19:38] into future seasons. Well where do we begin? Oh yeah. Yes. Okay so the fact that we have some

[00:19:49] connections here with the unseen world is very interesting because yes the nautical

[00:19:57] exist if they exist at all really within the unseen world and they project a sense of themselves

[00:20:03] into the square quotes here real world as real world as secondary worlds are of course. So I'm

[00:20:12] interested to see how it is that these three are also within the unseen world because Tolkien

[00:20:23] is quite clear about who isn't who is not within the unseen world. Okay so there's that. So I have

[00:20:29] many questions which I'm hoping will be clarified later on obviously not in this particular season but

[00:20:36] in later seasons. So yeah and the other thing I have questions about is this whole concept of magic

[00:20:48] because if you read on fairy stories which you should if you haven't run don't walk. If you read

[00:20:54] on fairy stories Tolkien actually makes it quite clear what he thinks of magic and in particular

[00:21:01] the word that McCay comes up with here conjuring and to him this kind of magic is trickery.

[00:21:11] Yes he utterly dislikes it and it's one of the reasons why you don't really see

[00:21:20] the wizards performing too much in the way of what he would call magic. Now yes there are some

[00:21:28] occasions we can point to and say okay this must be one of them like Gandalf lighting the fire on

[00:21:32] Karathras. And he says what you might as well just write Gandalf was here. Yep good point

[00:21:41] but in the main that is not what the wizards do their power doesn't lie in conjuring as such.

[00:21:49] So this is something that I'm thinking what are we doing here with magic and I do think the

[00:22:01] best in the three old Crohn's is a little bit lazy. Yeah and it's also pretty good clues to

[00:22:07] what they're thinking in terms of magic and it's fortunate because this play was written for

[00:22:14] King James the 6th of Scotland in 1st of England. Yes who had a particular phobia

[00:22:19] about witches and this was approaching the time of the most violent witch persecutions which again

[00:22:31] in in air quotes throughout Europe. And you know Shakespeare is Shakespeare his use of language is

[00:22:39] stunning and this scenes that he conjures and be quite memorable entirely intended on you Betcha

[00:22:48] have them all you can folks but he really shaped the thinking of what witches were and completely

[00:22:58] overlooked such things as conjuring women or the cunning women or the cunning men who were

[00:23:08] healers for their communities they knew herbs they knew the uses of to some degree the

[00:23:16] uses of foremoid a new moon in terms of healing abilities and they didn't dance around in the

[00:23:25] nude like Granny with her eyes with say it's a bit nippy wouldn't it? It's frankly wood and we're

[00:23:32] north of the Mediterranean so this is drawing upon a stereotype and I think they were either

[00:23:40] they were drawing upon their own stereotype or they were drawing upon the stereotype that they thought

[00:23:43] was most prevalent in their audiences it doesn't feel like talking to me not so far no and we

[00:23:51] wouldn't have to see what they do with these for us to make a full judgment on it but yeah yeah I mean

[00:23:59] we have to remember that when Shakespeare wrote my best he was doing it for a very particular reason

[00:24:05] and he was guided in his portrayal of the witches because of his need to attract the attention

[00:24:14] of James the first and sixth right I mean as you rightly said James was well he was almost of

[00:24:21] cest with witchcraft yeah and it wrote his own book on it of course which I'm sure sold many many

[00:24:27] copies because you know king but you know having lost his great patron Elizabeth the first to

[00:24:36] the inconvenience of death he then needed to keep royal patronage and what better way to do that

[00:24:43] than to flatter what the king is most interested in hence of course they play set in Scotland

[00:24:50] and naming one of James's purported ancestors as bankwow as being the good guy and

[00:25:00] having witches of the kind that James was most convinced existed and that he was most obsessed with

[00:25:08] right so whether Shakespeare himself thought that this was a thing is lost in time and almost

[00:25:14] irrelevant here because he wrote the play for the purpose of flattering the king pulling on Scottish

[00:25:21] history you know what this reminds me of if you wish to control your enemy find out what he is

[00:25:30] most afraid of and tell teach him how to overcome it and so Shakespeare gets to manipulate James

[00:25:39] the first and six into being his patron have delightful right right but I just I just can't see

[00:25:46] Macbeth's witches holding a magic cult in ruin it you know there's such a dissonance there

[00:25:55] yeah in my mind but as you say you know we've only seen the first of several seasons and who knows

[00:26:02] what will develop in the future right yeah yeah and also the combining of the unseen world which

[00:26:10] I think it was in Tommy Hillman's recent book pity power and Tolkien's ring exactly by the way if you

[00:26:16] don't exactly do get it it I think he does put forward a theory that everybody exists in those worlds but

[00:26:26] most mortals don't ever experience it or know about its existence or understand it

[00:26:34] which I found interesting but yeah so time magazine was a little more circumspect they call them

[00:26:44] cultists or evildoers I think cultists may actually be closest to the mark at this yes from what we

[00:26:53] seen so far yeah you know that their whole purpose was to find the returned salarong and they picked

[00:27:01] the wrong they picked the wrong dude yeah oops what a mistake to make yeah and and

[00:27:09] prime video itself we're closer to the mythics and their entire certainly contributes to

[00:27:17] religious ethos they say and I would say not religious but rather mythic yes mystics would kind of connect

[00:27:27] with cultists in the sense of these three I'm not saying that all mystics are cultists right

[00:27:35] you think thank you I appreciate that mythics is it usually implies the existence of some supernatural

[00:27:44] figure yeah now I suppose you could say yeah well that's sout on and so there's sout on mystics

[00:27:49] as opposed to you know zoofing this text right um I don't know language starts to get slippery

[00:27:57] after a while but it does yes we definitely should be watching these folks for future appearances

[00:28:06] and of course they will appear later in this season oh yeah oh yeah mum will probably have a bit more

[00:28:12] to say about them hmm showy move along let's do that yeah okay so bronwyn announces to the

[00:28:21] villagers that a dog has ordered his works to attack the tower and kill them all unless they swear

[00:28:26] feel key to him she tries to persuade them to stay in fight and many raised their hands to stay

[00:28:33] and let me just do a side comment here I'm find this scene to be quite reminiscent of the scene we saw

[00:28:38] in the north at the end of the previous episode where people are raising their hand oh I think it's a

[00:28:45] definite parallel here I think this is a definite choice yeah that was intentional you

[00:28:50] but waldrig bless his heart draws away about half of them implying that he'd rather serve the one who is

[00:28:56] sure to win oh pragmatic waldrig well that's one word for it isn't it in the north

[00:29:04] is yield or tries to convince his father that he is worthy of going on the expedition but his

[00:29:09] father is not swayed y'allian asks kemen to persuade his father to cancel the plan but kemen things

[00:29:16] that would be a waste of time kemen's no wrong he's not wrong waldrig is taken to muriel and

[00:29:21] Galadriel to consult on the southlands he tells them all he knows and appears reluctant to participate

[00:29:27] in the venture the laddry on how brand recognize that each of them has used the other

[00:29:33] and how could it be parts in anger and then slightly out of order but the group together makes sense

[00:29:40] Galadriel enjoys demonstrating to some of the younger volunteers the proper way to fight works

[00:29:46] waldrig is made lieutenant when he succeeds in scoring on her this is one of my favorite moments

[00:29:53] absolutely adore this scene that bit where she just puts them right back in their box and not so much

[00:30:00] I mean a lot of it has to do with the music i think musical choice the violin

[00:30:06] and i think i heard bear himself actually say that he showed the score to the violinist

[00:30:13] minus a violin part and said okay here's what it's going to be and here the places like like

[00:30:18] you to come in i just want you to play whatever you want that makes sense to you in terms of what

[00:30:25] you're seeing on screen wow so the whole violin part in that piece is basically a cadenza or a

[00:30:32] riff or whatever language in the call for which i think is what he is dodging

[00:30:38] and extremely extremely engaging so do you think this these uh the training things are

[00:30:47] a form of military ritual oh we have this discussion didn't we a little bit of episode when we

[00:30:53] talked about whether what the new menorians were doing was a ritual and we were kind of 50-50

[00:31:00] on it as to whether it was um with what's happening in the southlands i don't see that as ritual

[00:31:10] because it just seems to me to be a deliberate parallel as we were saying with the scene in

[00:31:17] in nomenor but also this is completely out of the norm for the southlands that have been

[00:31:25] we're going to use the word overseen by the elves for centuries and so they've had no need

[00:31:32] to go to battle um and in fact they would have been strongly discouraged from doing so i think

[00:31:38] by the elves he would not want them taking our arms because of reasons so i think what you have here

[00:31:47] is a number of deliberate parallels one the asking for volunteers but two also the

[00:31:55] the woman who stands in front and asks for those to fight with her oh nice um very good catch

[00:32:03] hands yeah yeah definitely and one wonders what experiences people have had with swords up to this

[00:32:13] point i can't imagine a great deal simply because again elves say no um they would not have wanted

[00:32:21] the southlanders over whom they were watching supervising etc um to have sword practice

[00:32:31] because the whole point isn't being there was to keep an eye on them right yes yes i'm also

[00:32:37] thinking of the new an audience though oh yes i can't think of a time in there you know day

[00:32:45] in the life of where they would be needing to take up arms or to have a military side to their

[00:32:51] culture hmm yeah well this time when they are expanding their colonialism their empire

[00:33:00] building on the shores of the earth when you would take a long people that were heavily armed

[00:33:07] because you need to subjugate the people who are already there sure and that is certainly in

[00:33:12] the texts for this time period hmm we just they haven't really shown us any evidence of that to my

[00:33:17] mind no no it's so far in fact it seems as though fatter's on is seeing this war for a whole new opportunity

[00:33:26] for colonization and so forth but yeah clearly they have to have been doing some kind of fighting in

[00:33:32] advance either that or they're really skill that putting out a lot of armor and swords really fast

[00:33:38] right and i think that coming back to the southlanders i think we'll see that that really

[00:33:45] hasn't been part of their lives no no um when later on they are faced with having to fight

[00:33:51] and they have very little with which to fight right right and they really need Orandeer

[00:33:58] to organize them and to recognize their strengths and their flaws and be able to say okay let's

[00:34:05] do this instead of this you know within keeping of their abilities are not exceeding them we're

[00:34:11] expecting them to know what to do in the situation and them being absolutely clueless yes okay are we

[00:34:20] done with that section i think so you might carry on i'll move on to the next synopsis then

[00:34:25] and we're back with the harfots and they are forced to take a path through an old dark forest

[00:34:31] which clearly contains wolves malva continues complaining about the big guy but after the

[00:34:37] stranger saves her nori and poppy from a wolf attack surprisingly Malva becomes a little bit more supportive

[00:34:44] and that's good for you Malva. Good exactly now using his power the stranger seeks to chill water to

[00:34:51] heal his arm from his use of magic against the wolves but nori gets kind of entangled with this

[00:34:56] moment of magic um and is inesplicably tossed across the clearing and now she is scared of the stranger

[00:35:05] yeah well lot of we make all of that yeah yeah yes it looks like the stranger is trying to

[00:35:14] grow into his abilities which he does not understand again there's no scientific ritual here but

[00:35:23] some to him untramiliar maybe even unknown power is being employed both in the chasing out of the

[00:35:31] wolves and in the healing of his subsequent bruising and he's chanting to the water and using

[00:35:38] an unknown language which we recognize as kwa nia and i went to the interwebs to drop on other

[00:35:47] people's detailed explorations to say that does some of the fragments that you can hear

[00:35:54] one is the word kala which means light and another is en vinyata which we will hear him use

[00:36:04] again in future episodes which is a verb to renew or heal so it's almost to command you know heal

[00:36:13] and then we have listen yann and by my grace which is an interesting

[00:36:23] interesting concept of the introducing to all this at this point it really is and i think it's

[00:36:28] worth noting that at this point we don't know obviously still the stranger we don't know who or what

[00:36:34] he is he definitely has powers but at this point he's certainly not in full control of them

[00:36:40] and i mean if we're reading this from a more tall canyon point of view you could argue

[00:36:46] that his use of this magic in this moment to heal himself is a sign of the immaturity of

[00:36:55] his ability to wield the powers that he has you know he's going for some kind of spell like

[00:37:01] thing rather than being deeper into his power as possibly a wizard we don't really know yet

[00:37:12] i have my suspicions but yeah we'll have to wait and see interesting of course that

[00:37:19] he loses control to such a point that he actually ends up hurting nori which i don't think was

[00:37:24] with any intent but no in that moment and you know let us let us also acknowledge that it was

[00:37:32] not terribly wise of nori to reach out and touch the arm as it's coated with ice i mean that

[00:37:41] so i kind of think of nori is almost acting like Pandora in a way here

[00:37:46] though in Pandora's case you know you're given a prohibition that was intended to make

[00:37:52] you curious and open it up and in nori's case it's reaching out with curiosity and winding up

[00:37:58] of the handful of trouble and i hope that there's not any kind of gender link intended there

[00:38:05] and i don't think there was i think it was just the sushi is she's curious she's interested in

[00:38:10] the world she feels a responsibility for this stranger i mean she just brought some of the harfoot

[00:38:16] medical treatment you know for a bruised paus she says and suddenly she's in doing something

[00:38:24] completely different and wants to know what it is so i think that's that's reasonable

[00:38:28] me natural but it also breaks her confidence in him because of the unexpected to both of them

[00:38:37] reaction when he brings the spell to an end if you want to call the spell which i really

[00:38:43] don't but i can't think we never would right now and she gets shot across the clearing which is

[00:38:49] kind of impressive okay i think we've agreed that there's no ritual in there but

[00:38:59] worth making that connection with this use of magic considering we talked about the hissesisters

[00:39:04] earlier and we'll be talking more about magic in middle-earth later yes yes okay so next in

[00:39:12] office yes please okay chem and tries and fails to persuade pharazan to stop the war

[00:39:19] pharazan is looking forward to elves taking orders from nomenal and starting the process of

[00:39:23] colonizing middle-earth medials father tells her not to go because only darkness awaits her there

[00:39:30] now in a rather favourite scene of mine at an elegant elvish dinner prince Doran and

[00:39:37] Gilgala trades smooth political barbs and disa came to a new dinner table and yes it's a

[00:39:45] very funny moment now afterwards as the veiled elvish women clear the table elroned questions

[00:39:51] the true purpose of his journey has adum after Gilgala accuses him of lying to his king

[00:39:57] the king insists that elroned tell the apocryphal tale of the origins of mithril

[00:40:01] then tells him that the tree of lindon is dying and only mithril can save the elves from fading

[00:40:06] at the same time and i want to know how did he know this in the first place yeah i have some sort of

[00:40:13] many questions about this story i don't know what's the first of this information yes um i mean

[00:40:22] there are a number of options here one this is being presented as the true origin of mithril in

[00:40:28] which case the sound you hear is my head thunking off my desk right uh two um this is a

[00:40:37] apocryphal that king has made it up and he's using it as a way of explaining something as

[00:40:46] stories often do right okay my question there would be why why this story and why does he seem to

[00:40:53] believe it um another possibility is that this is a story that has been passed to Gilgala by a

[00:41:01] another currently unknown and that Gilgala for some reason has believed it um yeah i i at this moment

[00:41:12] i don't have any explanation for what this story is doing here um i mean as an explanation for the

[00:41:20] origins of mithril it nonsense it's been my humble opinion so i'm hoping that that will actually

[00:41:28] be a known thing at some point that this is this is not a thing because it makes no sense

[00:41:34] i would so love the next season to open with kirdan hearing this story and saying for the

[00:41:41] love of marnoy don't you people know anything about your souls? Absolutely the story was good

[00:41:48] the story was clearly pre-existent because elrodon knew it yes and he knew to call it apocryphal so okay

[00:41:54] that's part of the furniture that that's nothing new what i want to know is who gave Gilgala the notion

[00:42:02] that mithril could save the tree from its corruption but even more gave him the notion that

[00:42:11] they're tied in with this corruption and if they don't get the mithril sunbathing or whatever

[00:42:17] it is there's just doing um they're going to either have to leave it alerif or they're going to die

[00:42:24] do you know what this reminds me of go about the Jackson films and it's the moment in the return

[00:42:29] of the king when elrodon tells arugon that arwin's fate is now played to the ring yeah and she's dying

[00:42:36] because of the ring and my response to that was huh yeah i've had the same response to this

[00:42:43] hello excuse me what yeah let's see what now so how exactly are they planning to beam the

[00:42:51] mithril light across all of the elves in middle earth yeah how does that image turn into three

[00:42:58] rings for the all the kings under the sky right or do they have to line up and get their

[00:43:03] mithril vaccination and there's gonna be some anti-vaxor elves out there you just thought

[00:43:12] how we know that will probably most of the silver dolls are going to say hey it's your treat

[00:43:16] it's your problem we're out of here we're not going anywhere oh no what to do with this story oh

[00:43:25] I think it's a little bit more kinds of things to do with it but we should probably carry on at

[00:43:30] the spiritual deep dark hole moving on okay so isilter approaches balandil and on tarmo

[00:43:36] in order to find out if you can get into valandil's company balandil tells him he can't in

[00:43:42] good conscience stake his name to recommend isilder for a duty that you might well decide to

[00:43:46] abandon he says one day i hope you will find something that you'll be willing to sacrifice anything

[00:43:51] for and if that isn't a planted line i think that is definitely a somebody waving a flag going

[00:43:58] please notice this line i don't know what is i think we may see it's fruits in the future right

[00:44:08] now slightly inexplicably kemen boards of estral de set it on fire and prevent the war

[00:44:14] and wakes up isilder who was hiding on borders means of being taken to mid-learth both of them

[00:44:19] narrowly escape the burning ship and a lendial realises that isilder has saved kemen's life

[00:44:24] neither of them tell the truth of what actually happened jia wonder why not i wonder why not

[00:44:32] yeah i have other questions about those ships by the way oh i want to know how they managed to get

[00:44:38] all those horses and all those people on those ships superared new anodian technology of course

[00:44:45] will he tautices uh that very well could be at least in the hold of the ship holds

[00:44:52] right you tautices yes and another thought on the inside then the outside yes another thought was

[00:44:59] desiccated horses just jet water put oh well there's a thought i mean there's a clever folks

[00:45:07] the nominoreans you never know they might have invented and even learned bits and pieces from the

[00:45:13] um moving on moving on so calibrimbo asks for elrons forgiveness because he did not tell him about

[00:45:22] gil gallads desperate search for me through since the hiking had forbidden him from doing so

[00:45:28] please note that evidently somebody knew all along that the dwarves had already discovered it

[00:45:33] which is interesting in the light of the conversation that print during how had with daddy during

[00:45:39] the previous episode about you know it's secret keep it secret keep it safe et cetera but calibrimbo

[00:45:47] has already tested it under every condition and nothing diminishes its light now we know that

[00:45:53] methyl has special properties we know that um we know that sour on desired it and we know that

[00:46:01] it was immensely rare so much so that the methyl shirt that Frodo had is actually worth all the value

[00:46:11] of the shy and everything in it and everything in it yes um so we do know that it is a really unusual

[00:46:20] metal but i do wonder what test calibrimbo has been doing and how they know

[00:46:27] and i want to know is what methyl was he testing did elron give him his little chunk and that's

[00:46:35] what he was testing i don't see how that could possibly have happened given the space of time

[00:46:40] of these scenes which tells me they already knew about methyl because i had some mm right so that's

[00:46:49] going to be a bone of content in between the elves and the dwarves at some point isn't it

[00:46:54] among many take your pick so to continue galadriel visits halberand and the

[00:47:01] apologizes for using him but halberand refuses to go to the council at dawn and convince

[00:47:06] Maryel to take ship from mid-earth he says that galadriel has no idea what he did what all

[00:47:12] the southlanders did in order to survive and galadriel responds with her brothers saying

[00:47:18] sometimes to find the light we must first touch the darkness halberand instantly wants to know

[00:47:23] who's dagger it was that she now carries and she tells him it was her brothers who was killed

[00:47:28] by the servants of sauron and she also tells halberand that one cannot satisfy thirst by drinking

[00:47:33] seawater. galadriel says that the only piece for either of them lives across the sea

[00:47:40] and places the pouch with the king's sigil in his hand okay this kind of clarified something for

[00:47:47] me in a subsequency and that we'll see will sauron is playing her brother he says something about

[00:47:57] this saying to her and so initially I thought okay well you know powerful being demon reaches into

[00:48:05] the mind creates this whole beautiful well this is now telling me that halberand has already heard

[00:48:13] saying from galadriel's own lips because the very first thing he says is whose dagger is that

[00:48:22] and makes that connection between them and I don't know it just otherwise it's just oh well

[00:48:29] sauron could pull anything out of her mind because magic and that you know that doesn't turn

[00:48:35] into a dream trade. No no it's a cheat it's you know why should we care so it was interesting

[00:48:42] for me to read that this time is say oh okay this came up really right so the final bit in this

[00:48:51] section we're back in the southlands and waldrug leads those who followed him to addar

[00:48:57] and offers to serve him addar requires him to kill roen before he accepts them saying only blood

[00:49:03] combined. Theo meanwhile is practicing archery and wonders why addar and deer bothers to try and

[00:49:09] teaching when they'll all be dead soon addar and deer says it's because it took him over 200 years

[00:49:14] to achieve the bravery Theo has achieved in only 14. Theo wonders why addar and deer is staying

[00:49:20] with them and he says it's because all those who stayed have the same courage. Theo shows the sword

[00:49:26] helped to addar and deer who says he's seen it before and he tells Bronwyn that the

[00:49:31] he'll have some sort of key to help enslave her ancestors and that addar knows that Theo has it.

[00:49:37] Bronwyn despair is in his ready to surrender but addar and deer comes up with a way to fight

[00:49:44] which doesn't bother to tell us in this scene. No we have to wait till next episode exactly.

[00:49:49] dramatic pause. Okay so do we get anything ritualistic about any of that section of the episode

[00:49:58] Marlin? Well I mean we do see the urcs claiming a blood of right which you know if orc are

[00:50:07] going to have rituals that's kind of more the sort of ritual that I would have imagined. Right and

[00:50:13] it's a very shocking contrast to the previous rituals that we have seen that before me.

[00:50:19] But it's quite a common one. So usually if you're doing a blood oath it means you're taking your

[00:50:26] own blood and exchanging it with the blood of somebody else with whom you are making and oath.

[00:50:32] So again only blood binds but in this case it reminds me almost more of street gang rituals.

[00:50:38] You know you can't be part of our gang until you kill somebody. Right which exists in a number of

[00:50:44] places around the world I think. So it's pretty straightforward you know what's to say I'm

[00:50:51] afraid I closed my eyes before you know but doesn't actually show you that killing

[00:50:57] ruin. Fortunately no but we have to have seen that this is what happens. I mean no

[00:51:03] wall drag I don't see him being reluctant to cut the throat of ruin. Yeah I mean blood binds

[00:51:11] and in this sense it binds in so many different ways because World Rekha shared blood now.

[00:51:19] And that's not it's not that it now makes him part of a band of brothers. It just puts him

[00:51:27] I think under the control of Adar and the walk forces because he has committed an appalling

[00:51:35] piece of treachery by killing one of his own to gain what really subjugation under

[00:51:45] Adar because ironically those humans are going to be viewed as very much less than the

[00:51:51] orcs definitely. The word fodder comes to mind. Yes again no spoilers but we're going to see a

[00:51:59] little bit of just how Adar and the orcs view these humans that have committed a blood sacrifice

[00:52:07] actually to commit themselves to Adar's cause. Yeah yeah I see Walbrae gets a petty belief

[00:52:16] looking for a bigger bully for protection basically. Yes yeah and the souls who feels you're

[00:52:22] only worth anything if you have power and you have power over what is make clear not other kinds of

[00:52:28] necessarily. He's also obviously somebody who actually hankers for a time when

[00:52:36] somebody like Adar was in charge. Yeah you know and we get that sense that he's the kind of person

[00:52:43] who who would look into history and see only the good things about that kind of evil.

[00:52:51] We see the same thing in neo-Nazi's now. He should look back at that time and see only what

[00:52:58] they want to see actually take from it only what they want to take and twist it to actually feed

[00:53:07] them their own beliefs in the time in which they live and I think Walbrae is doing something very

[00:53:15] similar with Adar here. He's hankering back to a time long before him by the way because he

[00:53:22] had centuries ago but he sees that as being a good time. I mean okay that the Southlanders

[00:53:30] don't live well it's very rural and agrarian and they do seem quite poor so you know you don't see

[00:53:39] anybody with any power you don't see anybody with any wealth. And I think maybe he looks back

[00:53:46] in history and things were better when these people were in charge. I think that one thing

[00:53:54] that really fires him though is that they have been under the watchful eyes of elves for so many

[00:54:00] hates that, doesn't it? Yes that they have been under the thumbs of overlords as if he sees it

[00:54:07] and therefore he feels that he has not been free and he makes a illusion to you know our ancestors

[00:54:17] you know you might say some of that things about them but at least they stood tall or

[00:54:22] words to them. Yeah yeah and of course I only think that no more free when they're under Adar than

[00:54:30] they were when they were under the elves. I know I know in some instances there are actually

[00:54:35] I suppose you could say he felt he got to choose which overlord he would be enslaved under

[00:54:42] which okay if that's what floats your boat I guess but there was also this sort of very

[00:54:49] fundamental assumption that you know anybody who stays here is gonna get killed. I'd rather

[00:54:54] take my chances with the ones who to my mind are clearly more powerful and more likely to to win

[00:55:01] and come out of it with a whole skin. He's not the sort of man who thinks too much about morals and

[00:55:09] conscience and things of that nature never mind community I mean wow just not there okay

[00:55:20] do you want to take it the next snob? Yes let us go on to the next section

[00:55:25] Thank you for giving me this section. Elvrand is walking with Doran as he heads back towards Kazadum

[00:55:37] preceded by several elves carrying the stone from the former eldest table. Elvrand realizes that Doran

[00:55:44] made up the whole thing the whole story about the sacredness of this particular stone

[00:55:50] and Doran agrees saying that you know Disa really has been wanting a new dining table.

[00:55:57] Elvrand confesses that while he did not know it he had been sent to Kazadum not for friendship

[00:56:04] but for me through. He explains that the elves will fade without it or else leave middle Earth forever.

[00:56:12] Doran is really pleased to realize that the fate of the entire Elvrand race isn't his hands.

[00:56:17] Back to yes, Elvrand to repeat it a few times. And he tells Elvrand to come back with him

[00:56:23] to Kazadum so they can figure out a way to persuade his father to help the elves.

[00:56:28] No one of the many things I love about that table saying that Doran actually invokes

[00:56:38] cultural, more age, cultural ideas. But he said all the sacred stone and it was only ever used.

[00:56:50] I mean this is kind of telling something ritualistic. It just doesn't exist.

[00:56:55] Doesn't exist. He made it all up. On the spot that he and Gil Gallard are matched.

[00:57:04] You know, they are really a pair of politicians. Right. Being the politician he is, Gil Gallard

[00:57:12] recognizes that in that moment he has been outplayed. Oh he has been had to spades. I mean he

[00:57:17] is absolutely been wiped but been used to wipe the floor. Yes. And every single exchange

[00:57:26] thing big, it's like a chess match. You know to try and put the other one on the wrong foot.

[00:57:34] It is fun to see. It goes back and forth and back and forth and in the end Gil Gallard just doesn't

[00:57:39] stand at chance. So it is very funny. I think Elvrand suspects from the beginning that this is

[00:57:47] a lot of a whole question. I'm sure that Gil Gallard knows it's a lot of hogwash but he can't afford

[00:57:53] to tell him to lay down his cards. He is the host. He is the one who would be wrong. He is the

[00:58:05] one who feels he needs to be gracious and I think maybe he is tripping over his own stereotypes

[00:58:10] about what Elvrand and what doors are. Yes. And how each of them should appear to the other.

[00:58:15] He loses a beautiful dining table and he loses face to print a door. He does. He probably

[00:58:24] regrets that a lot more. Yeah, he could always get another table. I'm just thinking this maybe

[00:58:30] why he is particularly testy and offensive with Elvrand immediately afterward. Well you're going

[00:58:37] to take it out on somebody, haven't you? When somebody just wiped the floor with you? Yeah, calling him

[00:58:41] half Elvrand again and you know it's just like it's some kind of derogatory term. Seriously,

[00:58:49] it's nothing terrible about being half Elvrand particularly not when you look back at his

[00:58:54] ancestry. You know he's not half Elvrand because some random dude somewhere in a forest somewhere

[00:59:04] walked off within an Elvrand woman. He's so random. He's the products of two incredibly

[00:59:12] important people. I wonder if there is some kind of chagrin amongst certain of the elves who

[00:59:22] think very highly of themselves that it took this plea from what they persist in viewing as a human

[00:59:31] that it was a human who was able to sail back through all of the traps and the rocks and

[00:59:37] the nests and so forth, which the Null Lord could not do. And actually step on the undying lands

[00:59:48] and not be smoked immediately. I mean yeah, the timing was great. All the guards that were supposed

[00:59:52] to be guarding the pass were in with the festival. What isn't about the Valauden festivals? They

[00:59:57] really have to think about their rituals. It comes to festival celebration. But a few guards are

[01:00:03] out of few key places here folks. Anyway, I'm just wondering if there isn't some sort of resentment

[01:00:09] there that you know all of those Null Lord who suffered and went to Mandoz and so forth

[01:00:17] and it took this one person to achieve it with the Silla of Elb. Let us be clear,

[01:00:26] was the creation of the most gifted of all the elves as well as probably the most flawed.

[01:00:34] So there may be a little bit of rancor rolling around inside him somewhere about that whole thing

[01:00:40] and now here's the sun and you know what am I going to make if you kid? Okay, so we have another

[01:00:49] bit of this on the other one. Albert and decides to go to Middle Earth and he joins the military

[01:00:56] procession to the ships. The Aryan is dismayed to see that Isil Lord is in their midst

[01:01:01] as this means that all her family has now left her. On boarding the flagship Isil Lord learns

[01:01:08] that he has been taken on as a stable sweep, which reconciles Valandil to his presence and his

[01:01:13] friendship. Galavodil boards the ship and clasps, Helbrons are as the ships make sail and head

[01:01:20] northeast to Middle Earth in the blaze of light and triumph at music. Now let me just say from the

[01:01:26] beginning here, I am not a fan of the military. I honor people sworing Oads and keeping their Oads

[01:01:34] and doing service and all those of the things. I always cry in this moment. I just I always

[01:01:42] weak because we'll really be because of the pointy and see it at all. And again, this is a very,

[01:01:50] very strong world where one vibe. Here are these young people and older people marching off to war

[01:01:55] and they're excited and flowers tuned into their feet and it's going to be glorious and we're back

[01:02:00] in a week and of course we know because we have Daripel and Thierry's prophecy. All you'll find

[01:02:07] there is darkness. Right? So it's the tragedy of it as much as the thrill of the Majesty of

[01:02:19] it for lack of better work. It really does speak to Tolkien's experiences of world,

[01:02:24] well one and of course general experiences of world war one where so many similar scenes were played

[01:02:30] out. The young men marching off to the cheers and the waves at the crowd and then facing the

[01:02:36] absolute brutal horror that is war. I like you, Marilyn. I, you know, all of those who make the

[01:02:44] choice to serve their country in that way and of course back in World War One, many of them at some

[01:02:49] point didn't have a choice. But there's a reason why I'm a vegetarian pacifist because all I see

[01:02:59] when I see those young people marching off proudly faces full of excitement is death,

[01:03:06] the horror that awaits because there is nothing glorious about battle. The never has been anything

[01:03:12] glorious about battle. It's always hideous. And the glory I guess comes from the behavior

[01:03:21] of and the sacrifice of the people who decide to undertake it. You know, I think of the northern

[01:03:28] tradition of the literature that Tolkien and many of the inkling is love so much. The greatest

[01:03:35] thing that people could do at least the men was to die fighting in battle. The most

[01:03:43] ignomines and was to die peacefully in your bed. Don't you have to call to mass pro-pacly? I'm

[01:03:50] already exactly exactly. It was a reason why it's called the old lie though, which means for people

[01:03:57] who haven't heard that before, the sweet and proper proper it is for someone to die for their country.

[01:04:06] Yeah. And I'm all saying yeah, we'll be back by Christmas and it was years if they survive that one.

[01:04:17] Yes, I think the, wasn't the average survival rate of a second left tenant on the front about two

[01:04:25] weeks. Yeah, yeah, which is why of course so many of the young men of the upper-class families died

[01:04:32] because they were all sent out as young officers and they usually lasted about two weeks.

[01:04:38] And if you look at any of the churches or chapels in any of the colleges in Oxford,

[01:04:42] you have these massive tablets on the walls with row after row after row of names of

[01:04:52] the folks who matriculated into those colleges who were killed. Right, often altogether in the same

[01:04:59] unit. Yeah, and the same thing in small towns and cities around, you know, whole towns would sign up.

[01:05:05] Yeah, back in first world war they had what they called friends, battalions.

[01:05:10] They did away with that by the second world war because they recognized that actually when you put

[01:05:14] all friends and family into one battalion, yes, you get them fighting together, et cetera. But you

[01:05:19] also can lose entire villages of men. Right, and it's not good. We've behind women who have no means

[01:05:26] of self-support. And yes, so but we do see some new minority and military ritual here, Marlin.

[01:05:37] Don't worry, did we do? Indeed we do the marching and processions coming from different parts

[01:05:43] of the city. It seemed to me almost although part of that could have been COVID restrictions

[01:05:48] and how they were able to to feel in these scenes and how many people could be in the space at

[01:05:53] a time and so forth. I keep that in mind when I'm watching this. And the music, the slow

[01:06:01] drumming and the slow horns and you see this stepping which almost reminds me of disage horses

[01:06:08] because they lift their legs up, you know, when when needed a time very, very slowly. While they're

[01:06:15] carrying those darn spears and not resting them anywhere but holding them out where you try and take

[01:06:20] a glass of water and cook your elbow and hold it up and I defy it, hold it up for five minutes.

[01:06:26] You know, I think 30 seconds isn't that all I can do. Just incredibly challenging physically

[01:06:34] but also very exciting reminds me of Roman drums and horns in the way, you know, and

[01:06:39] of course there were plenty of those that went up to all kinds of battles in quote unquote

[01:06:46] unswilled territories, you know, throughout northern and western Europe on the Romans where

[01:06:51] in their heyday and their were foot soldiers and their were cowley soldiers. The scattering of

[01:06:58] the flowers underneath their feet is they were passing of course took me right back

[01:07:04] to a founder and mayor's company riding out of Minister of D.U. what they viewed to be certain

[01:07:10] doom. So there wasn't a lot of music there and there wasn't a lot of cheering and so forth

[01:07:15] but they still stood the flowers which I thought was an interesting touch and then there's something

[01:07:23] else that we see that you talked about quite movingly in our very first episode, the brunch

[01:07:29] of her turning, the brands of returning you have to look carefully because you only see it for a few

[01:07:34] seconds but it's actually rustling in the breeze. It really it looks quite lovely and instead of being

[01:07:40] a bow that is stuck on the prow of the ship they've created it almost looks like you're entering

[01:07:47] an arbor this sort of curved piece of wood in the branches wrapped around it so it's it's an interesting

[01:07:56] realization of that concept and it's a nice little Easter egg for those of us who know the

[01:08:01] unfinished tales definitely, most definitely. Okay so what might we conclude from the rituals in

[01:08:09] today's episode not being so many of them have there. No and they've been small touches rather than

[01:08:15] major cultural revelation but you know there's still I'm seeing more differentiation

[01:08:21] again that the not just between peoples but within peoples you know the orc ritual that I mentioned

[01:08:31] being in such contrast to their rituals of veneration and their rituals of the passing of their own

[01:08:38] folk. Right yeah I do think pain and mk are using these rituals there were definitely at the

[01:08:44] beginning they were using them to help us to understand each culture that they were a shortcut to

[01:08:49] meaning and here I think you're right they're now using them to compare and contrast

[01:08:57] these different cultures how do these people do this as opposed to how do these people do this?

[01:09:05] So we're learning more but it's just being done in a slightly more as opposed to subtle way.

[01:09:13] Yeah and the whole piece of magic has now been introduced you know ritual adjacent let us say

[01:09:21] there certainly are many rituals that are founded in magic or in act magic and so forth but

[01:09:27] up until this point we haven't really talked about that so much. Therefore we're going to talk

[01:09:33] about it after we take a quick break. Welcome back as you mentioned earlier there were very few

[01:09:51] rituals in today's episode and because of the introduction of the hissie sisters we're going to spend

[01:09:57] a little time talking about magic in Middle Earth. Western European magic originates in their

[01:10:03] hermetic tradition which originated in Egypt it focuses a lot on the four elements of earth,

[01:10:09] air, fire and water with fire being the most ambiguous in Tolkien's world and generally it's also

[01:10:17] the most vulnerable of the element because it requires air and earth or fuel in the right balance

[01:10:25] in order to be sustained. So these other elements are all actual substances made from molecules

[01:10:31] and so forth fire is a chemical reaction so that kind of sets it apart and I think we see

[01:10:39] historically of all the elements that there is a sort of a different approach to fire in many instances

[01:10:47] it's the welcome flame on the heart but it's also this we certainly discover is we get more

[01:10:54] more forest fires and wildfires it can be deadly. So if you map that onto the vallod

[01:11:02] mannaway is the ruler of air our way is of earth, little more courses of water and melcore

[01:11:11] is fire and I think initially those four were meant to work in harmony to represent the elements

[01:11:18] to the balance and so forth but we also have of course we know melcore went evil and so fire

[01:11:25] becomes associated very much with evil but we also have the flame imperishable

[01:11:31] and so there's a distinct duality about fire in middle earth it's this both and

[01:11:37] if you're thinking strictly in terms of of good and bad of moral qualities or whatever

[01:11:45] as I said medieval magic was also based in hermetic principles and alchemy and astrology were

[01:11:50] both of feature of these things and of alchemy eventually due to alchemy chemistry

[01:11:56] and astrology that eventually developed into astronomy and in a future episode

[01:12:02] sorry has graciously agreed to tell us some more about alchemy. Yes indeed I'll look forward

[01:12:06] to that so will I and so will we all I think. As for magic in middle earth it follows the medieval

[01:12:14] concept in which there were two types of magic goatea and magia and Tolkien mentioned these

[01:12:22] concepts and a few of his letters he did indeed now of course the most famous letter of all

[01:12:28] letter 131 to Milton Walman let's remember that this was written pre-publication of the Lord

[01:12:36] of the Rings and in this letter Tolkien says I have used magic inconsistently the elves magic is

[01:12:45] magia art or craft which is developed far beyond that of mortals with limited lifespans

[01:12:50] and it does not dominate but rather heels the enemy on your hand does goatea unnatural interference

[01:12:58] or domination with good or bad intent so um the elves can also on occasion do goatea of course

[01:13:05] so some examples that would be things like necromancy summoning the dead trying to speed things up

[01:13:13] trying to do things that are not part of the natural process of the world if you like

[01:13:19] uh the elven rings then are the closest to goatea that the elves tend to come to because

[01:13:27] the elven rings artificially preserve the mortal world um part of the purpose of them is

[01:13:35] it's preserving but it's also pressing pause on these places so that we know that time runs

[01:13:42] slightly differently uh in for example in Lausdlorean and that's part of the fact that the

[01:13:48] elven ring uh neña that goatea actually presses pause on the world in a very strange way um so

[01:13:58] that is interfering with the natural world of course it's with the best of intentions but it's

[01:14:04] not necessarily a good thing to do in fact um Tolkien does talk about the fact that this is

[01:14:12] a problem actually that it's something that the elves do but perhaps should not do and they have to stop

[01:14:19] doing it um and that's why the elven rings have to leave mid-learth along with the elves.

[01:14:25] So that's in letter 131 and the other letter that we're going to mention is letter 155

[01:14:32] 2nao mi mi chisthena this one is post publication of the Lord of the Rings and in this Tolkien actually

[01:14:40] explains quite extensively uh his concept behind um magic forms if you like in the Lord of the Rings

[01:14:49] along with a lot of other things letter 155 is well worth your time reading by the way.

[01:14:55] So he talks about how in the Lord of the Rings magia and goatea are both used by both sides but

[01:15:01] for different purposes goatea he says is illusion whereas magia produces real physical effects so

[01:15:10] the elves goatea delusions are entirely artistic they're not intended to deceive um so elves are

[01:15:19] not deceived by them but mortals might be and that's interesting again if we look at

[01:15:26] when the elves actually practice goatea what is it that they're doing and what is the effect on the

[01:15:31] world around them when they do so and do they perceive that in a different way to other people's

[01:15:37] which I would argue that is the case actually yes um so they're not deceived anymore than a painting

[01:15:45] is intended to deceive now that's really fascinating because that immediately makes me think of

[01:15:52] the painting Sassine Pazanpeep which is of course the magia painting which has a pipe

[01:16:01] on the painting but underneath it says translate the French rather roughly this is not a pipe

[01:16:08] right and that is true it is a representation of one particular kind of pipe right

[01:16:17] and that of course is what the artist was trying to say that this you know this isn't

[01:16:24] the thing it's a representation of a form of the thing the thing so this I think really plays into

[01:16:33] what Tolkien's talking about here that paintings are not intended to deceive neither are

[01:16:38] they reflections of reality they're not mirrors there's somebody's perception that is then put into

[01:16:46] an artist's space and different people will perceive that in different ways right because

[01:16:52] they take things to it yes exactly fascinating stuff um now on the other hand magia's goal

[01:17:00] is immediacy for better or worse it's viewed as an inherent and a non-mortal power it's not

[01:17:06] something you can learn uh it's something you have okay so there you go magia and go etch

[01:17:14] here in the two letters you've got more though Marilyn right yes I do I'm also thinking about

[01:17:21] leaf by niggle yeah when he was using that example of a painting that his whole life

[01:17:28] niggle worked on this one grand painting and was well afraid he would never finish it which he

[01:17:36] didn't but was also um despairing when he learned that it was going to be used for canvas to

[01:17:44] cover his neighbors house because the roof was leaking and then after he goes through an experience

[01:17:51] which was remarkably like death and then her tutorial he comes to a place which certainly seems

[01:17:58] paradoxical to me and sees his tree that he has been trying to paint his whole life so in this

[01:18:05] instance you do have a painting that becomes real however you are understanding that reality to be

[01:18:14] and I wonder if Tolkien didn't have this in the back of his mind when he was writing this letter

[01:18:19] to Nion the Magician son oh fantastic that's really fascinating yeah yeah so let's really consider

[01:18:26] the appearance of magia and go etch in the rings of power so we have the elves showing their magia

[01:18:34] through their physical strength and their health remember we'll have heard our will here

[01:18:39] discussion when the rondeur says you know we heal quickly and easily in our in what a physical wounds

[01:18:46] definitely in their artistic ability I mean just think of the visuals that we have had

[01:18:53] of lindon of irregian the clothing my lord the clothing stunning stunning material

[01:19:02] and also their foresight although I think you'll galates foresight channel as a bit wonky right now

[01:19:10] need some fine tuning definitely the Palantir are I think an example of goetia

[01:19:18] because they are taking an ability namely sight and they're pushing it to exceed its natural limits

[01:19:27] so yes they're made by the elves they're made for good intentions because they're not intended to be

[01:19:33] deceiving but you get someone like a souter on who gets a hold of the Palantir and he can

[01:19:39] very definitely use it in a deceptive manner you know withholding some visions and pushing other

[01:19:45] visions forward to create certain responses and people who will believe what they're seeing because

[01:19:52] the Palantir cannot literally lie so this is a very different understanding of what we see

[01:19:59] of the Palantir and rings of power and I find it interesting that the show wonders decided to

[01:20:05] use them in a slightly different way I'll be able to just see if we see more of these devices used

[01:20:10] in other ways and I'll just drop it in here that many people say that it was our dear friend

[01:20:16] Fandol who invented the Palantir. So think on that for a while if you will. The hard foods

[01:20:24] they have a kind of magia which allows them to disappear quickly and quietly just like their descendants

[01:20:31] but they also have a very close knowledge of in relationship to the earth and that can appear

[01:20:38] to be magical to other humans so there's something of a resonance there with doing the painting

[01:20:48] that's not intended to deceive then we see the new minority in humans who let us remember have

[01:20:57] a touch of the elders ancestry so they're crafting I think is what is revealed to have that

[01:21:05] little tiny touch of magia if you want to call it that consummate ship builders they're also

[01:21:11] known for their foresight again you know we hear Todd Palantir say this is not a good thing we

[01:21:19] should not be going to middle earth his foresight I think proves to be quite accurate

[01:21:24] and they excel in the craft to subject me because of their longevity which was granted to them

[01:21:32] no that's an interesting question it was the avalanche who decided to extend their normal

[01:21:41] lifespan quote unquote and this had some marvelous outcomes including building these amazing ships

[01:21:48] with the partisan the basement for the horses but it also had other rather unexpected effects I think

[01:22:00] now we have the sword-hilt south on sult which is most clearly and definitely go

[01:22:05] it here you know another form of blood magic intended for domination and in future episodes we also

[01:22:13] see south on using very powerful illusions so that magic of illusion and deception

[01:22:20] very reflective of goadia and certainly south on takes part in that

[01:22:26] as do the hissie sisters who are searching for south on the misuse of natural materials intended

[01:22:33] to deceive they use magic as a machine for fast transportation which is another form of goadia if you

[01:22:41] will and of course we all know that Tolkien did not like machines and then the stranger I think

[01:22:49] we have now seen enough evidence to say that he can use magia but he's still very clumsy with it

[01:22:57] and you had that sense that he's just beginning to learn who and what he is but also who and what

[01:23:05] he can do and be right so much actually if you start to really consider those two different forms of

[01:23:16] I really hate using the word magic but don't really see how else we can phrase it yeah it just has so

[01:23:23] many connotations and associations that you can apply in many different ways and contexts

[01:23:32] right particularly of course in Tolkien's work which is why I'm grateful for the distinctions of

[01:23:37] magia and goadia and I think that was why he was grateful for as well because he as he says

[01:23:43] in that letter that you read he knew that he was using the word magic uh inconsistently

[01:23:49] which produces confusion in the minds of the readers as well as in the minds of the Hobbits and

[01:23:55] all the rest of them okay so another time we can talk about all committee oh yes I'll

[01:24:02] be wonderful so we don't have any feedback today um we had a little mix up and the timing for the podcast

[01:24:09] drops but we'll be sure to include any feedback from this and any other episodes that we get between

[01:24:16] now and our next recording okay so that's it for this episode right in and let us know what you think

[01:24:22] any suggestions you might have for rituals for us to talk about anything else you'd like to share

[01:24:26] with us we welcome your feedback at rings and rituals at the lawhounds.com or on the lawhounds

[01:24:31] discord server where we have a special channel set up just for rings and rituals.

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[01:24:42] looked for the contact us link at the bottom of the page. The star and I are aiming to publish two

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[01:25:36] well as many other benefits. Until next time then remember there are powers beyond darkness

[01:25:43] that work in this world. Big deed. Knock I'm in until we meet again.

[01:25:48] Hello, farewell for now.