Ch. 6 - Udûn

[00:00:13] Hello and welcome to Episode 6 of Rings and Rituals, Udon. From the pain in the case series rings of power.

[00:00:20] I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Rifendell.

[00:00:22] And I'm Sara, she'll make the Rohan, and we're delighted that you've joined us.

[00:00:26] That's a day we'll again be reviewing what we mean by ritual,

[00:00:30] and then applying those concepts to different examples of ritual that we find in this six episode of the TV series.

[00:00:35] We'll explore them using a set of questions to reveal how pain and decay depicted the cultures they were adapting to their series.

[00:00:43] Please be sure to get in touch with us. A discussion of two isn't adventure,

[00:00:47] but we'd love to have more voices join us. In fact, we have a lot of voices joining us today.

[00:00:52] You can email us at Rings and Rituals at TheLoreHounds.com

[00:00:57] and or you can join us on our Rings and Rituals channel on TheLoreHounds Discord.

[00:01:02] We'll include all that information in the show notes.

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[00:01:33] Okay, as our regular listeners know,

[00:01:37] we'd like to start with a review of our definition of ritual, particularly for anyone who might be joining us for the first time.

[00:01:43] So Marilyn, what do we mean by ritual?

[00:01:46] Well, primarily, and first most, first and foremost, ritual is a repeated action.

[00:01:52] It's usually intended to recognize and or to bring about change.

[00:01:56] It often has symbolic content, but not always.

[00:02:00] I mean, people who are dog owners know that there's a ritual for walk on the dog.

[00:02:04] Not terribly symbolic, but very important.

[00:02:07] And you probably follow certain patterns each day, although maybe you're like someone else I know who likes to take a different route every time.

[00:02:15] But the ritual aspect is it happens on a regular basis.

[00:02:20] It may also be a form of meaning making, which does not have to be religious or spiritual.

[00:02:27] People use fireworks for the celebration in many particular rituals.

[00:02:32] Like, you don't usually have, well, you might have fireworks at Christmas, but usually you have them in the states around 4th of July.

[00:02:39] And in the UK around November, I'll remember.

[00:02:43] No, but November.

[00:02:44] November, remember.

[00:02:45] Remember, remember, remember, remember.

[00:02:46] Remember, remember, remember, remember.

[00:02:47] I just did.

[00:02:48] And so these rituals may create or reinforce communal identity.

[00:02:55] Although, of course, there are also solitary or personal rituals.

[00:02:59] Often, ritual gives structure and meaning to the unimaginable.

[00:03:04] And may include humor, which can help one to bear the unbearable.

[00:03:08] So ritual can perform some really significant actions when life gets tough.

[00:03:16] So we'll keep those points in mind as we describe each ritual.

[00:03:20] And we've been following sorts of questions.

[00:03:23] What is the design of the ritual?

[00:03:25] What is the intent of the ritual?

[00:03:27] What is the outcome?

[00:03:29] And particularly, what does that ritual tell us about the culture and the individuals within that culture?

[00:03:36] So keep those things in mind because we're going to take a quick break now.

[00:03:40] And when we come back, we'll bring you the meat for the tofu for the unervegetarian listeners without the quail sauce.

[00:03:47] Welcome back.

[00:04:00] Before we get started, we had something to share which draws a less obvious connection between the Lord of the Rings and Rings of power.

[00:04:06] We've already talked about the ritual culture affirmation of the hardfuts.

[00:04:11] Nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone.

[00:04:14] If you, this is your first episode, you can go back to the gliss episode 3 where that comes in pretty significantly.

[00:04:22] Recently though, while I was reading or listening, I can't remember which to Lord of the Rings, I do both.

[00:04:28] I noticed an unexpected echo.

[00:04:31] What's the company reaches Rivennell?

[00:04:34] We have all of the significant hobbits together in one place.

[00:04:37] At one point, Billville says to Frodo,

[00:04:41] We hobbits must stick together.

[00:04:44] This seems to be pretty similar to nobody walks alone.

[00:04:49] And then a little while later, we hear Mary and Pippin say to Elrond,

[00:04:53] We don't want to be left behind.

[00:04:56] Now, I'm not going to try to tell you that this was Pan-Emique's direct inspiration in their creation of this particular cultural statement.

[00:05:03] But it just seemed pretty familiar.

[00:05:06] I thought it was a pretty neat connection.

[00:05:08] So I wanted to share it with you all and I want to know, Sara, what do you think?

[00:05:11] Well, to be honest, it doesn't really surprise me when I think of hobbits.

[00:05:16] I think of community.

[00:05:18] And because of that, to me, it seems natural this idea of sticking together, being together, working together.

[00:05:27] Think about the hobbits we see in the Shire, either in the Hobbit or in the Lord of the Rings.

[00:05:32] And we're talking about big families and that sense of community and being together and partying together and eating together.

[00:05:41] And drinking together, there's a whole lot of togetherness there.

[00:05:44] And when, for example, at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings, we have the folks in the pub talking about Bilbo and Frodo, right?

[00:05:55] Because they are slightly different to that because they are a little bit more individual, if you like.

[00:06:04] They are referred to as queer or cracked or cracking.

[00:06:10] So I think for most hobbits, it's the norm to be part of what everybody else does.

[00:06:16] Now we can argue forever about whether that's a good or a bad thing.

[00:06:20] The fact that everybody is supposed to do similar things and those that don't are other.

[00:06:27] But there is such a sense of community among the hobbits that we don't necessarily see amongst any of the other people that we come across in our reading.

[00:06:38] So this idea of we hobbits must stick together and that link to nobody goes off trail and nobody goes alone.

[00:06:47] To me, that actually kind of makes sense.

[00:06:51] I don't know what do you think.

[00:06:53] Well, it was particularly the phrase we don't want to be left behind, which is almost word for word.

[00:07:02] When we're hearing miracle talk to Nauri and you know, she and and Lago are talking alone and she keeps saying we're going to be left behind.

[00:07:13] I can say as Panama came, sure you're listening to us every week, please write and tell us.

[00:07:19] Was this on your mind?

[00:07:22] Or listeners, if you've read something or heard something or whatever, I would love to know because I do know that the showrunners have a deep knowledge of the text.

[00:07:31] And a deep love for the text. So maybe it was subconscious or unconscious, you know, when they did that, but it just really struck me between the eyes when I get through that.

[00:07:41] Yeah, perhaps a combination of that idea of hobbit community feeling, but also of course the fact that the harfots need to stick together because those that don't stick.

[00:07:52] Yeah, tend to well frankly die.

[00:07:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:58] So for the harfots it's a very particular problem if they're not part of the group.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] But at the time we get to the Lord of the Rings, it's more like being socially ostracized but once you're going all the way back to the time of the harfots, it's a matter of life or death.

[00:08:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:17] I just think it's kind of a neat connection and I think if it is, you know, a harfot culture expressing itself in, you know, the their eventual dissentance.

[00:08:32] And it's slightly different way.

[00:08:34] Yeah, I like the idea. Good, I'm glad.

[00:08:37] So we're going to review the ritual elements that we saw in this six episode, but to aid our listeners' memories will also include us a noxious event.

[00:08:46] The disafetime we might leave out one or two scenes or compile some out of order for the sake of continuity.

[00:08:51] Now please note where doing full unspoilers throughout these episodes.

[00:08:55] If that isn't what you want, go and binge the entire season then come back and join us.

[00:09:00] Yes, please.

[00:09:02] So Marilyn, do you want to start with the first synopsis?

[00:09:05] I will do that. Thank you.

[00:09:07] A daughter makes a small hole in the ground and plants seeds in it saying new life in defiance of death.

[00:09:15] In Kuenya.

[00:09:18] He then goes to his army and speaks of how much they have yearned for a home and how they are now at the point of being able to claim one at last.

[00:09:25] The Orcs respond with growling and grunting to this classic ritual of an encouragement speech,

[00:09:31] whether for an army or a sports team or something else.

[00:09:35] The Orcs chant, Nampot, which means death as they march.

[00:09:41] They find the tower seemingly deserted, though there are still torches lit.

[00:09:45] The Orcs fan out to search for people.

[00:09:48] In an upper portion of the tower, a rondear waits, listening for the right moment to bring the tower down on the Orcs,

[00:09:54] where then trapped inside the courtyard.

[00:09:57] Or, in a distance, the refugees from the tower cheer as they watch it collapse.

[00:10:02] Bronman leads them back to the village saying that they don't have much time to prepare.

[00:10:07] Okay. Well, I think it's fairly clear one of the main things we find in this section right, Marlon.

[00:10:15] Yeah. Here's a daughter planting seeds and speaking Kuenya in a phrase that sounds pretty ritualistic to me.

[00:10:24] And I wonder where did that come from? How far back?

[00:10:29] Right, because why would else need to be defying death?

[00:10:37] That is strange, isn't it? They don't die! No. They do not die.

[00:10:41] And I think this is one of the challenges of any kind of adaptation of this series is remembering this key difference between else and humans.

[00:10:50] And for the sake of drama and audience expectation and so on,

[00:10:55] the elves are depicted as being far more vulnerable than I think they really are.

[00:11:01] Yeah. Now, maybe if you're an adult or one of the first two is taken into a twisted it whatever.

[00:11:06] I don't know, maybe you don't come back if you are killed.

[00:11:09] But even so, the way this is presented makes it seem like elves have been doing this for millennia.

[00:11:17] It does. The only thing I can think, you know, giving a little grace to paint a mk if you like,

[00:11:24] is that it's new life and defying some death, but it's not about the elves.

[00:11:29] It's about the world around them.

[00:11:32] I mean, after all, he's planting seeds. These seeds will burn in plant life.

[00:11:39] And plants around them that nature around them, that does have a cycle in which there is death and new life.

[00:11:48] And perhaps we could point to that as being a way of understanding this as ritual.

[00:11:55] I do find it highly ironic, though, given what it is he wants to do to that area.

[00:12:01] Yeah, right? So that in fact, he's going to take an area that is relatively lush and green

[00:12:09] and turn it into what is going to become more door, so it's all like new death and defyons of life.

[00:12:16] It does feel like a ritual that goes back a very long way, particularly spoilers, spoilers.

[00:12:22] When we see our India doing something very, very similar.

[00:12:27] Exactly. Later on.

[00:12:30] But the only thing I can think that is not, well, this is a bit of an error on the part of Pena Mk is perhaps this isn't about elves.

[00:12:38] It's about everything else.

[00:12:41] That's really interesting. I'll have to move that over for a while.

[00:12:45] I can see where that might be the case. I mean, I see where you're drawing it from and it has a good foundation there.

[00:12:54] But yeah, again, it just makes me wonder what is a daughter's backstory?

[00:13:01] And I really hope we get some of that in a second.

[00:13:03] Oh, so do I because I have to be honest, Adar is one of those characters in the whole of their series

[00:13:10] that really intrigues me. I mean, many of the other characters I enjoy.

[00:13:16] I love Adar and I love Bronwyn and don't get me started on Disa who is in fact my queen.

[00:13:22] Exactly.

[00:13:25] But Adar fascinates me. I want to know everything about him and his origin story.

[00:13:31] Yes, definitely.

[00:13:35] So there's more in that little synopsis actually than just the planting of the seeds.

[00:13:39] There's that encouragement speech that he gives when he goes to speak to his army.

[00:13:44] And let's face it, that's everywhere in literature.

[00:13:47] Yeah, and of course Tolkien does something similar when he has the battle of Helms D.

[00:13:55] And he has the battle of the Black Gate.

[00:13:59] And he does have that sense of leadership there, although it's not quite the scene that Jackson makes of course.

[00:14:05] Well, then Adar got him before the Black Gate although I have to say that's a really good scene.

[00:14:09] It's very Henry the Fifth.

[00:14:10] I was just going to say, Chrisman's crispy and once more dear friends under the reach and all I've been a thing for sure.

[00:14:17] I also think of Arise Arise writers of Theoedon.

[00:14:22] Yeah, you know that's another.

[00:14:24] I called it an encouragement speech because there's other things that people call it that I thought well, that's not really Tolkien to me.

[00:14:33] But anyway, it's a battle cry basically.

[00:14:36] It's the summoning of the troops.

[00:14:38] Yeah, you know, Feldi is a way of fire and slaughter for Faire Lingus.

[00:14:45] And it as it is a cultural statement, it's probably something they've heard before.

[00:14:52] It kicks him into high gear, right?

[00:14:55] Yeah, it makes references to things that make cultural sense to them as well.

[00:15:01] Right, this is what they do.

[00:15:02] They're warriors, they come forth and when their Lord calls them, they respond.

[00:15:07] So all of these things ritualistic in the sense that you can imagine him seeing it before, you can imagine now if you're going to be a good person.

[00:15:13] Imagine now it affects them.

[00:15:15] It's a reflection of this warrior culture and has a lot of meaning for them, I think.

[00:15:22] Hmm, now I don't know if Arondear or excuse me, if Adara ever gave a speech before to his, his children.

[00:15:32] But the sentiments are certainly things they've heard and felt an expressed before.

[00:15:38] Yes, so yeah, pulling all that together and reminding of them of that as if they needed reminding.

[00:15:45] As a means of seeing okay, yeah some of us are going to die but there will be in a very good cause and that's usually the just of any kind of pre battle statement isn't it?

[00:15:58] Yes, yeah, I was in the troops.

[00:16:00] Right, this will be worth it, there is a point to this.

[00:16:06] And I think that this is this is showing great leadership on the part of Adara, because we know already that they view him as this sort of strange father figure.

[00:16:18] But this is now a bit more than that because you can be fatherly without being a battle leader and I think you're still.

[00:16:25] Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:27] But I think what you get here is him showing that side of him that he is not just top dog amongst the orcs if you like but he's also their leader into battle.

[00:16:39] Hmm, and their father though again, I think back to that horrible scene where he tells one of his children to expose their arm to the light.

[00:16:47] And yes, that's a rather abusive father.

[00:16:49] Yeah, you see the mother there for sure.

[00:16:53] But the orcs pick up his enthusiasm and as they march off, they are chanting.

[00:16:59] So how many times do we see that ritual of you know you keep in step that brings you together as a group.

[00:17:08] Your chanting death, maybe that's their version of defiance of death, you know they can't plant seeds but so they just chant the word over and over so that no.

[00:17:17] Yeah, I'm afraid I can see that it might be death but I also will plant a ring death.

[00:17:22] And that's the point isn't it?

[00:17:24] And I mean what you don't want is your troops marching along singing, Tala La Lali way down the valley because that's not going to keep them riled up.

[00:17:35] You need your soldiers riled up and really on the edge with their adrenaline going because that's the only way really to get soldiers into battle.

[00:17:46] So the only way to get soldiers into battle is to get them feeling that sense of urgency and power and strength in their.

[00:17:55] And there was a degeterness here, of course.

[00:17:57] And we were just talking about community amongst the orcs but there's a degeterness here because they march in step and they're working together and they're chanting together.

[00:18:06] And it's an important sense of connection.

[00:18:10] Do you think elves have chance as they've watched a battle?

[00:18:17] That's a really good question.

[00:18:22] From Haurie and to Louvre of course we can work pretty good wouldn't it?

[00:18:27] Do we see any examples of that in talking?

[00:18:33] And I'm not sure that we do.

[00:18:36] I really don't think we do.

[00:18:38] And my initial reaction to my own question was oh my gosh no.

[00:18:43] But then why not?

[00:18:45] And yeah, do they have some else don't go to battle?

[00:18:48] Dead and yeah, yeah I'm going to turn this one over for a listener's right in if you have any ideas about that.

[00:18:56] That would be great.

[00:18:58] Yeah, you can imagine them at the you know the last alliance and you know marching together and with you know elves and men and would they have that kind of.

[00:19:10] Common chanting and riling up and all that kind of thing.

[00:19:13] It does feel slightly acuate the elves, but it just doesn't it feels off and yet now I'm realizing that you know these are more things that are being chanted as they are moving.

[00:19:25] And getting to be a unit.

[00:19:28] I don't think elves need to do much practice to move as one if you see what I mean or to you know to become a unit.

[00:19:36] Now maybe I'm seeing them through those kind of glasses, I don't know.

[00:19:40] But once there are the field itself, I don't think they're going to be chanted.

[00:19:44] Well let's face it.

[00:19:45] Elves have plenty of time for practice.

[00:19:48] Oh yeah, definitely.

[00:19:51] Would you like to give us the next chunk of synopsis?

[00:19:55] Sure.

[00:19:56] Okay.

[00:19:57] In the hold of one of the new menorian ships is ill do a wigs before anyone else and shares an apple with his horse barric.

[00:20:04] Hellbrand is also awake, but he doesn't stir.

[00:20:07] Isildor goes up on deck to watch the dawn and catch sight of mid-earth.

[00:20:11] Galadriel comments that all soldiers were to be asleep and isildor apologizes, but she recognises his eagerness to have a first glimpse of land.

[00:20:20] When she learns that he is a stable sweep, she comments that humility has saved entire kingdoms at the proud of all but led to ruin.

[00:20:30] Not wrong actually. That's a very good statement.

[00:20:34] Isildor says he's trying to get away from new and all, saying that what they have left behind is not the real new and all which he doubts ever existed.

[00:20:42] But Galadriel assured him that it did and does if only in the heart of a stable sweep she says.

[00:20:49] Isildor introduces himself and Galadriel recognises his father in him.

[00:20:54] Isildor says he was always told that he looked like his mother.

[00:20:58] But he's thrilled to see sunrise over mid-earth.

[00:21:01] When his father appears, Isildor returns to the stables and Elendiel tells Galadriel that his wife drowned at sea.

[00:21:08] So back to that comment there about humility, saving entire kingdoms at the proud of all but led to ruin.

[00:21:16] And of course we have to remember just how far back Galadriel's memory goes.

[00:21:21] So which kingdoms might Galadriel be thinking of that was saved through humility?

[00:21:26] But let me end.

[00:21:29] Yeah, Belerian does a whole was never really considered a kingdom and of course it wasn't saved so that kind of doesn't work too well.

[00:21:37] I'd gone to London kind of came to mind from y'all though, of course in the end it fell too.

[00:21:45] That decision to retreat into hide might be considered a form of humility, of recognition that we really can't defeat this vala.

[00:21:55] So let's do the next best thing because we're exiled now, we're here.

[00:22:02] And we want to preserve our lives and our fellow's and our culture whatever is on this possible.

[00:22:09] Rather than do the whole booyar, we can beat this dude and run out there and get killed.

[00:22:15] So could we, I mean obviously this is a long way in the future too to the Galadriel and you know she has memory but she doesn't have this kind of foresight.

[00:22:26] If we push this forward into the time of the Lord of the Rings, we could possibly say that the humility of Sam and Frodo,

[00:22:34] in taking on the burden of the Ring, that does save entire kingdoms and that the pride of certain other leaders like Sadaman, like Denithor,

[00:22:50] have all but led to ruin.

[00:22:53] So there is a, I think that we can point to that as saying it's true, she doesn't know this because it hasn't happened yet.

[00:23:00] But here is a thing that we can say, yeah, because the very smallest of course can make the biggest difference.

[00:23:08] Right, right, yeah, I mean I'd love to grant Galadriel a kind of prescience.

[00:23:16] It may just be more of a, of a proverb or something I don't know and certainly in Valinaut, there was no need for saving the kingdoms because, you know.

[00:23:28] Or maybe, oh, now here's the thought. What about the very, very first land that they had with the two lamps?

[00:23:34] Hmm, it wasn't exactly a kingdom.

[00:23:40] And I don't know that you could accuse them of being prideful when they made the two lamps.

[00:23:46] And then when they go and hide behind the walls of the mountains that they themselves create is that more of a form of humility as well.

[00:23:55] I don't know.

[00:23:56] Just because, looking at that we can also say that if we want to point to the really proud we point to fail and all.

[00:24:04] Oh yeah.

[00:24:05] And he all but led to ruin the vast majority of his people.

[00:24:10] And then pass it down to his sons, right?

[00:24:13] No, that piece of it I don't have any trouble with.

[00:24:16] There's plenty of examples in her life already of the proud of all the leading places to ruin.

[00:24:22] It's a humility bit saving kingdoms.

[00:24:25] Yeah, that was the one which, you know, gives it balance and I don't know.

[00:24:31] Maybe she just came up with something in the moment to comfort a stable sweep as she thought.

[00:24:39] Shall we move on?

[00:24:42] Yes, let's move on. Do you want to do the next bit?

[00:24:44] I will.

[00:24:46] Back in the village, a rondeur tells Bronwyn that he cannot destroy the sword-hilt that fail found.

[00:24:52] And so he will hide it.

[00:24:54] But fail is watching all exchange.

[00:24:57] The villagers prepare for war and Bronwyn and Othondier get the traditional speech to encourage their fighters.

[00:25:03] Bronwyn tells Theo she needs him in the tavern to protect those who cannot fight for themselves.

[00:25:08] Theo asks her to repeat what she used to say to him after his bad dreams, and she replies,

[00:25:15] In the end, the shadow is a small and passing thing.

[00:25:20] There is light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.

[00:25:24] Find the light and the shadow will not find you.

[00:25:28] They embrace, he says farewell to her and goes to join the others entering the tavern.

[00:25:33] O'Rondeur takes out two of the alphiorean seeds that Bronwyn gave him,

[00:25:40] and says that this is a tradition among elves to plant one before the battle begins.

[00:25:45] Bronwyn responds, new life and defiance of death.

[00:25:50] O'Rondeur tells her about the vala who protects all growing things and those who tend to them.

[00:25:55] He says that they will plant the rest of the seeds after the battle is over in a new garden.

[00:26:01] He and Bronwyn and fail together.

[00:26:05] Bronwyn asks for his promise, and he kisses her.

[00:26:11] Now, this clearly is a reflection of what we saw a daughter do with the beginning of the episode.

[00:26:18] But why do you suppose it's Bronwyn who says this ritual phrase, new life and defiance of death?

[00:26:23] I mean, she's saying it as a question but she's using exactly the same language.

[00:26:27] Yes, and I have to say that totally confused me when I told her.

[00:26:32] Thank you, right?

[00:26:33] Because it would not have surprised me quite as much if I don't do your headset it because then you could see how it was a saying

[00:26:41] that had been passed down through Elvin generations, if you like.

[00:26:46] But for Bronwyn to say it, that kind of doesn't make sense to me.

[00:26:52] Especially as it's exactly the same language that Adara uses.

[00:26:56] How would she have that same phrase?

[00:26:58] Unless another elf had said it to her before.

[00:27:02] But it doesn't feel like that because Alondia actually then tells her about the tradition of planting the seeds before that time.

[00:27:10] So it doesn't sound like it's something that she knew about beforehand.

[00:27:15] So hence my confusion, I'd love to say I got here as my answer.

[00:27:20] You know, I don't actually have an answer for that.

[00:27:23] Yeah, yeah, she says it in response to him explaining the tradition.

[00:27:28] And it comes to her, it seems spontaneously because she ends it as a question.

[00:27:35] New life and defiance of death, meaning is this why you do this?

[00:27:39] Is this the meaning of the ritual?

[00:27:41] Hmm.

[00:27:42] But that she has the same language exactly as Adara.

[00:27:46] Yeah, yeah, I just know.

[00:27:48] Adara, why?

[00:27:49] Very odd.

[00:27:51] Which led me to then also wonder while I'm skipping ahead a little bit.

[00:27:57] What are they, why are they trying to tie this connection to Eyn Adara and Arondia?

[00:28:04] And as it, you know, something all else know because clearly they are not the same type of elf if you will.

[00:28:12] For lack of a better word, meaning they come from different plans that have had different experiences.

[00:28:17] You know, Arondia being a silver elf and hmm.

[00:28:20] Adara being we don't quite know what but certainly older.

[00:28:24] Very much so.

[00:28:25] And I doubt to silver elf as well.

[00:28:28] Something like so.

[00:28:30] No, there's something that tells me he's not a silver elf.

[00:28:33] I could welcome from the time before there were actually three groupings of elves.

[00:28:39] You know, come from the very, very early days at Quivienne.

[00:28:43] So that's always been my head cannon.

[00:28:46] But yeah, and until it's proved otherwise, we will exactly true of most head cannon, right?

[00:28:54] This may have just been a poetic license kind of thing from this group writer and you know.

[00:29:02] Well, I have a theory but we'll.

[00:29:05] I'll introduce that after we look more in detail at all of the rituals that we see in this section.

[00:29:13] So first of all, we have the encouragement speech.

[00:29:15] Yeah, which is obviously a reflection of the one that we get from Adara and the walks earlier.

[00:29:20] Right, right.

[00:29:21] And something that I think is probably a ritual and just about any culture care to think of, at least those who engage in warfare.

[00:29:32] What about the ritual for Theo when he wakes up after I was getting a little recledbed through.

[00:29:39] I was reading it because of course I can't help but think of Sam looking up in more stored and seeing.

[00:29:46] Errand Hill.

[00:29:47] No, exactly what I thought when I heard it yes.

[00:29:50] Yeah, yeah, but also she adds her own.

[00:29:57] Statement.

[00:29:58] Find the light and the shadow will not find you which certainly fits in nicely, but that's that is I think unique to her and into the script writers.

[00:30:14] I've never had children and I can't speak to how it feels as a parent to know that they're having nightmares.

[00:30:21] And going and waking and comforting them but.

[00:30:25] Yeah, I expect that most parents will have done this ritual at least once and you have each having their own particular phrase.

[00:30:33] Maybe one for each of their children because of course children are different and different things will comfort them.

[00:30:40] Yeah, and.

[00:30:43] Yeah, as a parent myself yes, I did deal with bad dreams that my daughter had when she was little.

[00:30:53] The language of what Bronwyn says here is a little high for lootin for a little kid.

[00:30:59] Good, good sense of it.

[00:31:01] Good point yes, that idea that.

[00:31:06] Let's turn on the light and show you that there are no monsters under the bed.

[00:31:10] There are no monsters because we shine a light and then we see there aren't any but I'm right here.

[00:31:16] If they were.

[00:31:17] They wouldn't get past me.

[00:31:19] You give it that kind of sense that reassurance that yeah, my mother data here and there's no monsters because they're not allowed.

[00:31:30] But this kind of language is.

[00:31:33] It's a little like I said a little high for livin for a little one.

[00:31:38] So it depends on how old.

[00:31:40] Theo was when she started to say these kinds of things because of course the language that you use when your kid wakes up squealing at age three or four.

[00:31:48] It's very different to the language that you use when your kid wakes up squealing at age ten.

[00:31:53] Yeah, my dear mum is here.

[00:31:55] Yeah exactly.

[00:31:57] When they're really little they just need to know that they are fully awake and that mum and all dad are right there and it's okay.

[00:32:05] Yeah, parenting takes incredible courage.

[00:32:09] I have to say.

[00:32:12] Well, I picture myself trying to make that promise to a child.

[00:32:17] You know as long as I'm here nothing can hurt you.

[00:32:20] There's a part of me that just knows that's not true.

[00:32:24] Trouble is the parent does too really.

[00:32:26] That's what I mean.

[00:32:27] No, I mean I as the parent would know this.

[00:32:29] The child might believe me.

[00:32:30] I would hope the child would believe me.

[00:32:32] That that would certainly be my intention.

[00:32:34] But at the end of the day no of an ax wheel becomes in.

[00:32:38] I don't have a lot of resources to deal with it.

[00:32:41] On the other hand, the odds of that happening are so low fairly slim at least in our twenty-first century day life's right.

[00:32:49] Yes, it does apply there.

[00:32:51] It feels like I don't know.

[00:32:53] Yeah, ax wheel being mad people could actually be a thing.

[00:32:56] It could be a good in date.

[00:32:58] Yeah, but you're right.

[00:33:00] I mean as parents we make all manner of promises to our children.

[00:33:04] But we do it in the moment because we really don't need to sit the kid down and say, well you know I'll tell you this now.

[00:33:11] But let's face it if there was an ax wheelding murder against you in the door.

[00:33:15] I wouldn't be able to save you.

[00:33:16] So I mean, he sure you don't need to go through that with your kid.

[00:33:21] Right.

[00:33:22] Right. So yeah, sometimes we make these statements and the adult in us knows that there is a limit to it but the kid does not know that and does not need to know that.

[00:33:31] No.

[00:33:33] Yeah.

[00:33:34] Yeah, you make that promise because frankly when you have a child that's what comes with that is, you know especially when your kid is little, you are there everything and you have to step up and be that even through all of the fear and lack of confidence and all that kind of thing because you know you can read all manner of books on parenting but

[00:34:01] not one of them is any use in the moment.

[00:34:03] No, because I just hold on like, oh look at my bookshelf and it would be my devout wish that when the day eventually comes that the child realizes actually there are something that my parents can't protect me from.

[00:34:19] They'll be old enough to be able to take in the information and and you know accept it, cope with it, do it.

[00:34:29] That not feel betrayed you told me you know, but doesn't know what has happened when you want it to does it.

[00:34:36] No, it doesn't and it of course it changes year on year as the child gets older year on year because of course by the time they reach a certain age it's no longer about monsters in the closet or under the bed.

[00:34:51] It's about the difficulties that they're facing on you know when they go to school or something like that.

[00:34:57] You have real things.

[00:34:59] Real real things.

[00:35:01] Yes, which for the axe murderer has to.

[00:35:05] Yeah, I mean that's face it we don't have this problem here in the UK but in the US so many children having to do active shooter drills.

[00:35:15] That horrifies me and upsets me because little children learning how they have to hide in case somebody comes in with a gun.

[00:35:25] I mean this is a real thing in the States.

[00:35:27] It's really it's more a thousand.

[00:35:29] The next most of us if not all of us.

[00:35:33] Yeah, so now we've gone slightly off track but that's the same thing because we're examining Bronman as a parent here.

[00:35:40] I suppose in doing ritualistic things that parents do to reassure their child and I find it interesting that in this moment where

[00:35:50] You know they're waiting for battle to begin if you like the O'Reacher's for a childhood memory.

[00:35:56] Yes, I noticed that too well in part I think because while Bronman has given him something that he can hold himself to maintain his pride in his dignity

[00:36:08] They both know the reason why he's in the tavern is because he's too young.

[00:36:13] In Bronman's eyes, of course we later find out that's not only to and it could just be and I'm not applying any blame to her goodness knows

[00:36:23] It could just be she couldn't bear the thought of the O'Reacher and so she puts him in the safest place she can think of and gives him a job

[00:36:30] And also says yeah well you can fight your that's true.

[00:36:34] They can't and they need somebody who can and so that's why I want you there.

[00:36:39] But and it's also could be sort of a well that's one less thing for me to worry about if I know that my son is not going to go safely somewhere because I have plenty of other things to worry about it this day.

[00:36:49] Yes, definitely.

[00:36:52] So what I found interesting to look at too and all this is in essence we have just seen two very different groups of beings go through exactly the same rituals and preparation for battle.

[00:37:07] So do you think that pan and decay are saying anything in particular to us?

[00:37:12] Well, I think so I mean it's it's a deliberate mirroring and there's a lot of this deliberate mirroring in this particular episode.

[00:37:20] Yeah, the same more.

[00:37:21] Yeah, so yes, I think they are.

[00:37:24] I think they're telling us that in essence it doesn't matter what side you're on.

[00:37:31] It's the same preparation for battle because there are living creatures people whenever we want to call them on both sides and that speaks back across to any war in our primary world.

[00:37:47] Because the way in which you get soldiers to fight is by telling them that the other side are bad evil wrong the enemy.

[00:37:55] Yeah, and human exactly and the more you dehumanize them the easier it is for the soldiers on your side to kill them.

[00:38:02] Meanwhile on the other side the leaders are telling the soldiers exactly the same thing about you.

[00:38:07] Yep.

[00:38:08] Yeah, because for most of us it is not natural to head out to battle and kill as men.

[00:38:16] And then the people as you can is it's not a natural thing to do.

[00:38:21] It's a I think that most of us would only do if we absolutely had to.

[00:38:26] I mean, I'm aware there are some people out here who wouldn't probably enjoy it because that's the kind of person that they are but their a minority the vast majority of us would only do that if it became absolutely necessary.

[00:38:42] And so you have to distance yourself or be made to distance yourself in some way.

[00:38:49] So that it becomes easier as a boy and for those who choose the military as a career out of a desire to ensure that their country is safe and to protect it and so forth.

[00:39:03] I'm not going to subscribe in the notion that they come to a place where they can't wait to kill other people.

[00:39:09] No, the vast majority would not but they'll be some but the vast majority are not.

[00:39:13] I'd remember a wonderful scene from CS Lewis's book till we have faces where a lifelong soldier character tells a young girl who is going to become their queen.

[00:39:27] She's very skilled in battle. She uses her sword wonderfully.

[00:39:32] Her name is Oral and when they've worked in work to work she's she's going to be fighting one-on-one with the leader of the other people and they've agreed to you know have this combat decide who wins quote unquote.

[00:39:48] And he says to her okay now we've perfected that fault that you had before we go there's one more thing you have to kill the pig.

[00:39:57] Because there is something in every human being that will resist killing another human being certainly in a possible and a living creature.

[00:40:06] And you have to not hesitate because if you do you're probably dead.

[00:40:12] And so we have to overcome that resistance and so you have to kill the pig that will be using for the victory feast later on I think.

[00:40:20] And I was so glad that he mentioned that course he fought and where we're one as did Tolkin.

[00:40:25] And acknowledged and recognized that there is something in human beings that do resist that.

[00:40:31] And depending upon your life experience that resistance may stay with your whole life or it may be ground away through various oral experiences.

[00:40:39] But I have to think that anyone who does serve in the military has had some kind of training or discussion or something.

[00:40:49] I mean it's a lot it's a lot more personalized now of course your your sending out drones of pushing buttons or whatever rather than facing another person at the end of the sword.

[00:40:58] But I have to think and believe that there is still this hesitancy that is part of the training of somebody who has chosen this.

[00:41:07] For the life's work whether military or police were sir you know whatever.

[00:41:13] Yeah so bringing it back to what pain and care doing.

[00:41:18] I think by giving us those parallels by giving us that mirroring in the episode is showing us that in the end.

[00:41:30] Two sides are going to come together with that same need to be put to you know the moment where they're going to draw swords and actually fight right now.

[00:41:43] Of course we can then argue that orks are a little bit more likely to want to go to battle but even they are encouraged and they're marched off and they're shamping their walk rise and things like that because.

[00:41:59] You know even they have to be kept up to the scratch if you like.

[00:42:05] And by having that mirroring I think pain and care just showing us that in the end there's a lot of similarities between the two sides.

[00:42:14] One of the things I like about this series is that they do things that are far more interesting with the orks than I have seen in other adaptations.

[00:42:23] Yes you know the orks are has it used the word you know what I mean humanized a little bit more.

[00:42:31] They're not depicted as the mindless grunting hordes I mean yes they're grown to be grown respectfully remember exactly that's the thing.

[00:42:42] But they're not they're not portrayed as just simply in a more first mass that they are that they have an ork community that they have this leader who they clearly love.

[00:42:56] And who has that a love for them I wouldn't say it's a particularly healthy father child relationship but you know it certainly has.

[00:43:06] A little bit more to it than we've seen in other adaptations so that's one of the things I think is quite interesting about this adaptation.

[00:43:15] Yeah and I you mentioned the word community again and this we say ritual builds community what I see is the overarching message is you need to fight is one yes you are a group now.

[00:43:29] You must operate as a group and fight as a group and be for each other and so forth.

[00:43:36] So even more than they you know because I don't see villagers saying yeah I can't wait to step those works.

[00:43:42] But they are encouraged to say yes we can overcome this challenge we can see the sunrise tomorrow right.

[00:43:53] And the emphasis there being on we okay so let's commence the battle here okay and indeed the battle commences and after a difficult fight the villagers triumph over the orks but.

[00:44:06] I have to say this is one of the most shocking moments actually they're joy is short lived as they discover that most of those they fought against and killed.

[00:44:16] And not orks at all they were the villagers who are joined the orks with wall drag that moment when they first start taking off that the helmets and seeing who it is that they've killed is just awful.

[00:44:28] And then the remaining or car me attacks a second time with arrows so clearly the villagers have been sent in just as cannon fodder right.

[00:44:37] And the remaining villagers have to withdraw into the tavern.

[00:44:40] Brong when his shot but with a combination of heard knowledge theos help add on dear skill and our feelings he's they're able to save her.

[00:44:49] The orks break into the tavern and add our enters he demands the hilt from add on dear who says let them go and then I will consider it.

[00:44:57] Add our orders the orks start killing villagers and then threatens Brong in life but Theo who is known all long where the hilt was hidden gives it to add our just as we hear the arrival of the new anorian cavalry.

[00:45:10] And add our gives the hilt to wall drag telling him that he has a task for him.

[00:45:16] Yeah, it's that yeah that moment with add our in the hut this is why I really love add our character because you can feel sympathy for him.

[00:45:31] In one moment and interesting another moment and then revulsion in another moment.

[00:45:37] Yeah, right that when he simply has villagers killed just with you know just as if it's nothing because to him it doesn't seem to be anything at all.

[00:45:47] Yes, he has an agenda he wants a homeland for him and his ork children but.

[00:45:55] He's quite prepared to do whatever it takes to get this and he will see the slaughter of innocent people without a blink.

[00:46:04] Yeah, yeah well, partially because he doesn't see them as innocent he sees them as.

[00:46:11] Yeah, yeah, because he is first priority as you say is always for his mode of children.

[00:46:18] Yeah, and in some respects that complication of his character I think is what makes him closer to human.

[00:46:29] Because we humans are complicated creatures. Oh yes, and we are a mixture.

[00:46:36] And we don't always like to be reminded of that very true so it may be that this is why some people are really uncomfortable with the character of a daughter and what.

[00:46:47] The showrunners appear to be doing with the works to make them more complicated and so forth. You know some people just want their values to be values and their degrees if you could use and there is some.

[00:46:57] Degree of comfort in that, but it's even more fantastical than you know fantasy literature generally I think.

[00:47:05] And Tolkien didn't do that either.

[00:47:07] No, he did not.

[00:47:09] And other reason why I really like the fact that they take this approach.

[00:47:13] Right, because for Tolkien good and bad do not exist on a well delineated binary.

[00:47:19] The most interesting characters always have that fuzzy boundary between the two anyway.

[00:47:26] But there can be good in the bad and bad in the good.

[00:47:30] And even more he doesn't believe in evil which exists independently of anything. He follows the boethy in line that says evil is the absence of good right.

[00:47:43] Evil's yet result of good picking poor choices.

[00:47:46] Right, yes.

[00:47:48] And it's a lot easier to see that in this kind of a depiction.

[00:47:52] Yes, he says he one of his lectures doesn't say that I do not believe in absolute evil because that would be zero exactly.

[00:47:59] Yeah.

[00:48:00] Yeah.

[00:48:01] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Okay, so the last bit of this section is Yldor goes down to the battle and he arrives in time to help his father but it is how brand who saves a lendeele.

[00:48:10] Galadriel asks Arondier where the command of the Orcs is and he points to add art escaping on horseback.

[00:48:16] She follows swiftly on and Theo watches her leave with adoration.

[00:48:20] He's got a teenage crush.

[00:48:22] Oh, you better.

[00:48:24] Well, look on his face.

[00:48:26] Wow.

[00:48:27] Blame him.

[00:48:28] You know it's Galadriel.

[00:48:30] Yeah.

[00:48:31] And she's doing all these amazing actions on horseback.

[00:48:35] Yeah.

[00:48:36] But she's a little old for him.

[00:48:37] Let's say he's dropped at gorgeous.

[00:48:39] Well, he didn't know that.

[00:48:41] I also don't think that he would even dream of considering her in light of that particular sort of relationship.

[00:48:48] Oh, no.

[00:48:49] It's an adoration, isn't it?

[00:48:51] It is actually it's reminds me of what Fadermir said to A1 about her first reaction to out of Gorn.

[00:48:58] Yeah, has a young soldier looking at it.

[00:49:01] At this poisson leader absolutely.

[00:49:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:49:06] Which she is every bit of poisson.

[00:49:09] So we're going to do something a little different right now and drop one of our pieces of feedback into the middle of our discussion today because it is very pertinent to what we've been talking about.

[00:49:19] This is from Brian, 863 from the Lourhounds community.

[00:49:26] Hello, Marilyn and Sarah.

[00:49:28] Thank you for the insightful podcast on the relationship between the show and the ritual.

[00:49:33] It is a thought-provoking discussion that I thoroughly enjoyed.

[00:49:36] Thank you, Brian.

[00:49:37] I appreciate those kind of words on them.

[00:49:39] So glad that you're enjoying it.

[00:49:41] He goes on.

[00:49:42] I wanted to ask this.

[00:49:43] Does battle intensify a ritual?

[00:49:47] I'm reflecting on soldiers and then many rituals that they have.

[00:49:50] The intense situation, the knowledge that soldiers could be maimed or die, probably brings the need to add ritual to the lives.

[00:49:57] We see a pretty intense one in episode 1 when the L's lay down their swords.

[00:50:02] I wonder if Orcs have more rituals than we realize.

[00:50:05] They tend to be seen in a simplistic matter.

[00:50:08] But I remember once seen in one of the Peter Jackson films on which an Orc was screaming right before his death.

[00:50:13] This is a motion.

[00:50:16] As we see more battles in the show, we can see what happens.

[00:50:20] Thanks again.

[00:50:21] Brian 863.

[00:50:23] Well, Brian, I hope that you saw some of what you were asking about reflected in our discussions today.

[00:50:30] That's been a lot of the bulk of what we've been talking about today.

[00:50:35] I don't see how battle doesn't intensify everything.

[00:50:40] Right.

[00:50:41] And I think that's part of the training that one has to have is to not let that intensity interfere with your training and your discipline and your clear sight of the situation as it unfolds.

[00:50:55] Right.

[00:50:56] So I mean, that's where I would say the question does battle intensify a ritual may not be quite the wording.

[00:51:07] Does battle produce more rituals?

[00:51:10] That may be I could go along with because battle itself is intense.

[00:51:16] We can agree on that.

[00:51:19] The rituals that come along with battle will necessarily be intense because they have to maintain that intensity.

[00:51:25] For the soldiers to go into battle.

[00:51:28] But because the ritual is formed in order to be connected to the idea of going into battle, it's already an intense thing.

[00:51:40] Does battle intensify it further?

[00:51:43] I'm not sure if that's the way it works, the ritual intensifies the feelings, the emotions within the fighter.

[00:51:50] So maybe it's kind of the other way around.

[00:51:53] I mean, the other thing I'm thinking is that it's not just soldiers going into battle that tend to have these kinds of rituals.

[00:52:00] We also see this in like sports people who before they go on to whatever it is a picture or a quarter, you know, non-sporty person here, insert your area or arena as you wish.

[00:52:15] And often they will have their own rituals, like tying up the left shoe before the right shoe.

[00:52:20] I think that's all about reddying them for the moment and it's not battle as such in the sense of hopefully they're not going out there to literally kill anybody.

[00:52:30] But it is a fight of some kind because you're going out there to win.

[00:52:36] That's the whole point, right?

[00:52:39] But to me, the ritual is part of preparation rather than the battle itself intensifying the ritual. Does that make sense?

[00:52:49] Yeah, yeah it does.

[00:52:51] I'm looking a little further down and I think maybe this was part of what he was asking.

[00:52:58] He says the intense situation which you were just describing probably brings the need to add ritual to their lives.

[00:53:08] So you just mentioned the tying one shoelace before the other and what comes to mind from me, you want to hear that is luck.

[00:53:16] Yes, you're appealing to luck through, okay, last the first time I did this, I did this left shoe first and then the right shoe when I won.

[00:53:24] So I'm going to do it that way from now on.

[00:53:28] Is that ritual? I suppose it is.

[00:53:31] It's a personal ritual you're repeating it, you're doing it with the intention of bringing about a specific outcome so it tends to take off all of our criteria quite nicely.

[00:53:41] And I'm wondering if it does so in part without people even meaning to you know, I don't think one would sit down and thank now how many rituals can I create before this first battle but.

[00:53:55] They evolve sort of organically for individuals now for a group like the the elves laying down their swords this he mentioned from the very first episode.

[00:54:09] That to me was clearly not spontaneous it was practiced it was agreed upon with something that they all knew and it was a ritual ending of the relationship between the soldier and the commander right.

[00:54:25] So you have your individual rituals in advance of battle or a competitor competition or whatever, but then you have your group rituals which are designed as I said before to form coherence within the community so.

[00:54:41] I think I think maybe that touches on both of the points that Brian was making here and and I think individual fighters rituals will change over time as their experience changes to but.

[00:54:59] It wouldn't surprise me I guess is my short answer.

[00:55:04] And yeah, I think these particular works probably have more rituals than we realize.

[00:55:09] I don't know if Peter Jackson's works have more rituals.

[00:55:13] I don't know what's become of them over the you know between the second age and the third age and we do know from the texts that.

[00:55:22] By the time we get to the third age most of the works in most of where were formed in some fashion by sound on.

[00:55:31] Right so I think he would probably almost certainly build in some differences because he's not looking to make children he's looking to make cannon fodder right in my estimate.

[00:55:41] My result is who will do is they're told and don't really care you know how they treat people or cultural values or any of those other things but.

[00:55:51] And I think the one you're talking about that one scene where we see the York screaming right before his death, I think that was the the work in the charge of the real hero.

[00:56:01] On the battle of the fellow Northfields that he had a sort of a leather cap that almost made a kind of a hood over him and he was I think he had to speak for she beer something anyway.

[00:56:11] I just remember this face in this oh which was almost sort of an area kind of.

[00:56:17] It had this lovely tonal curve to it.

[00:56:20] I think that's the work he was thinking about Brian if it wasn't you can write in and let us know, but thank you very much for your feedback and that was a great question excellent question I agree.

[00:56:30] Okay Marilyn do you want to pick up where we left off?

[00:56:34] I will do that.

[00:56:36] With the invention of how brand a daughter has halted in his flight, all bread asks if he recognizes him and a daughter says no asking him if he killed someone that all brand loved.

[00:56:47] Galatherial intervenes to prevent help her from killing a daughter outright saying she needs him alive.

[00:56:53] She tells how brand that one cannot satisfy thirst by drinking seawater.

[00:56:57] Meanwhile, is sealed or in his friends are talking about possible next steps?

[00:57:03] Well Galatherial questions at all.

[00:57:05] He denies being soud on in claims to have killed him by splitting him open after soud on killed too many of his old children trying to claim a craft to craft, a power not of the flesh but over flesh, a power of the unseen world.

[00:57:22] Aaraclaims that his children are free, children of the one as worthy of life as any other and that quote soon this land will be ours and then you will understand close quote.

[00:57:33] Galatherial thousand genocide on an aarce children while keeping him alive to witness it all.

[00:57:38] Aarac says he is not the only elf whose life has been transformed by the darkness and suggests that she searched for Mogas successor in her own mirror.

[00:57:49] This time it is Helbran who stops Galatherial from killing a daughter.

[00:57:53] As they leave, a daughter asks Helbran who he is but Helbran walks away without replying.

[00:58:00] Boy there's a lot of mirroring in there. I just realized. Oh yes.

[00:58:04] Are you talking about that before to say? Oh yeah! There it is! Look first she saves him and he saves her.

[00:58:09] Helpt is really back and forth. Interesting because of course the implication could be one of them anyway that you know there are a lot more like than they're different.

[00:58:19] And that is the implication for sure. Yeah. There's another one on Helbran but also Galatherial and Anar.

[00:58:26] Indeed, when Adar says search for Mogas successor in your own mirror, that's really interesting because of the way in which they are depicting Galatherial in the past.

[00:58:38] And I know there's been a lot of criticism of this depiction of Galatherial.

[00:58:44] But I would point people to the fact that this is a Galatherial thousands of years before the Galatherial of Lothlory and that we meet in the Lord of the Rings.

[00:58:55] And everybody gets to have learning moments especially a very long life and she's been through a lot a lot.

[00:59:03] And the fact that there's darkness in her, that is not a surprise to me at all actually because we do not reach the wisdom that she does by the time she is the lady of the woods.

[00:59:16] Without going through some stuff. Yeah.

[00:59:20] And read the unfinished tales and in that there's quite a lot of detail about Galatherial being quite martial and asletic and strong and forward.

[00:59:35] And that's not the Galatherial that we see as the lady of the woods either.

[00:59:39] So somewhere along the line it is eased into the great wise elf that we see in the third age.

[00:59:48] This is the second age. It's a long time before that.

[00:59:51] Yeah, somewhere the Galatherial is referred to as the greatest of an old Lord even greater than than fan Lord.

[01:00:03] Yeah. And that is saying an awful lot in this world.

[01:00:08] The other piece of this world and we see this in many different examples as in our own world wisdom comes through suffering.

[01:00:17] And right now she's carrying the darkness of her grief and her loss, which nobody has offered to share with her how to deal with that.

[01:00:32] And so she's taken on the only things she knows, which is the fighting in the martial prowess and making absolutely certain that every single last sign of sauron and sauron himself are eliminated.

[01:00:50] And oh by the way that includes any of the works.

[01:00:53] So these orcs, these old rooks are not having nothing to do with sauron. It seems. I mean we're being having pints dropped all along the way here.

[01:01:03] But yeah it's clear. I mean she spent time with Malian, the Maya and Malian spent time in Lorean.

[01:01:15] But she did not spend time with Niana as Gandalf did. And so thus far I don't know that she's had anybody to teach her how to grieve, how to find pity, how to express patience and how to live with patience.

[01:01:33] All she's doing is what she knows. Yes. And she realizes that eventually and at one point she says, you know, how would I ask her why do you keep fighting and she says because I cannot stop.

[01:01:48] And earlier Eldron had asked her, you know, or said to her, told her, put up your sword and her responses without it, who am I to be?

[01:02:00] That's scary. Yes, it is. That is very dark. So in that sense of darkness, Eldron is not wrong.

[01:02:09] But in the sense of darkness, it says I'm going to slaughter whoever I need to to create a homeland for myself. No, I don't see that in her. She's provoked to making an expression of genocide.

[01:02:23] And when Eldron points it out to her, she is horrified. Now, her issue we actually used to stab the person who was telling her that and isn't that always the case?

[01:02:31] When someone tells you a truth, you really don't want to hear. Often your first responses don't want to slap the teller.

[01:02:37] Yes. And that's very good sign that what they're telling you is truth.

[01:02:41] Yes, because it challenges you and you recognize that out that hurts but it can only hurt if there is that grain of truth in there.

[01:02:50] Yeah, if it doesn't connect with you at all then you can brush it off.

[01:02:54] Yeah, or laugh out loud. You can say, what? No, not even close.

[01:03:02] Okay, shall I carry on? Do, please. Okay.

[01:03:06] A Galadriel and Halbrand go and sit in the forest near a stream and agree that they each felt something while they were riding together.

[01:03:13] Galadriel thanks Halbrand for pulling her back and he says she pulled him back first. She tells Halbrand to be free of whatever was done to him and whatever he himself did.

[01:03:23] Halbrand says he never believed he could be free of what he did, but that while fighting together today he changed his mind.

[01:03:30] Of course, with hindsight that's a very interesting conversation isn't it? I really want to talk about this conversation in light of episode eight.

[01:03:39] We're going to have to table it. I think so. I mean we did say spoilers about everywhere but I think for the flow of our particular approach will we'll put up in in that will put up in in it, but we are coming back to that.

[01:03:52] Oh, you betcha.

[01:03:54] So the celebrations of the victory Bronwyn is presented to the Queen region who says she understands something of what it is to be a fine leader who never sought to take up the burden.

[01:04:04] Mary else, the loot's Halbrand is king of the Southlands and all the people do likewise. When Bronwyn notices the sigil on the pout that he wears she asks Halbrand if he is the king that they were promised he says yes and the villagers toast their returned king.

[01:04:23] Again, sticking up in it. Yep.

[01:04:26] And notice we do have some rituals here I didn't actually pull them out but you know the toasting of the king and the declaring and the affirmation of the people and all that you know you recognize that for many number of

[01:04:39] Oh, I don't know, Anglo-Saxon or other you know rulers proclaimed by acclamation rather than by inheritance or

[01:04:48] You know having just won the battle.

[01:04:51] That's so forth.

[01:04:52] Now if we really don't see him doing a whole lot in the battle like well he saves Elendil and he chases after a god but they don't ever wish on him fighting which okay fine, you know they wanted to highlight the new annoyance because this is their big moment right.

[01:05:07] Okay, I think you can carry on there.

[01:05:11] I will do that.

[01:05:12] When a vondier gives Theo the rapt package of the Hill Sword Health after telling him not to blame himself for choosing to save his mother's life

[01:05:22] Theo says that even now he feels the loss of it because quote when it was in my hands I felt powerful.

[01:05:29] Let's put it pin in this one too.

[01:05:33] Arondier tells Theo to give it to the new annoyance to be tossed into the sea.

[01:05:39] But Theo recognizes instantly when he holds it the package does not contain the Sword Health because it is the wrong way and length.

[01:05:48] Back at the ruined tower, Waldrag uses the now flaming sword to release the waters damned behind the tower.

[01:05:57] They run through the various tunnels and trenches dug by the orcs to flow into Mount Oldergruin.

[01:06:03] Barric sends the penting to the priest and he sees the priest and he sees the old tries to calm him, but only Elendil is able to do so.

[01:06:11] He tells him that Barric is distressed by easilyilders pain.

[01:06:15] Numanori and horses and riders bond together so they can feel each other's moods.

[01:06:20] Elendil tells Theo to learn all this from his mother.

[01:06:24] And the two are reconciled as he sealed her asks if Elendil could teach him.

[01:06:29] Then suddenly water begins to spurred up through holes from the tunnels and as it reaches all the ruin it triggers an explosive eruption.

[01:06:37] Both Galatriel and Orandier hold up their hands against the force of the blast, but chaos ensues.

[01:06:44] Stunned Galatriel's stairs at the oncoming pyroclastic flow, which engulfs her as the screen goes dark.

[01:06:52] Well then.

[01:06:56] Yes, I'm going to apologize to John Louroun for saying one more time pyroclastic flow because he absolutely gained it.

[01:07:03] Loath the term, but I just think it's cool.

[01:07:06] I love to say it feels nice in my mouth so apologies John.

[01:07:11] Sorry not sorry. Sorry not sorry that's it.

[01:07:16] Absolutely it.

[01:07:18] Okay well.

[01:07:21] I mean, it's a heck of a moment.

[01:07:24] Yeah yeah and you know what?

[01:07:26] I didn't even notice this the the the most recent rewatch was the first time I noticed that in the immediate aftermath of the initial explosion, you know, there was that one energy wave.

[01:07:37] I don't know what that's called so don't worry.

[01:07:40] But I've had never noticed before Galatriel does hold up her hand.

[01:07:45] Yes and then shortly after that we see Orandier who had kind of crashed over but he was also holding up this hand.

[01:07:53] And I thought like, oh, they're shielding.

[01:07:56] Hmm.

[01:07:57] They're both using some sort of similar elvesch technique to mitigate the force of the blast.

[01:08:05] I never seen that before.

[01:08:07] No.

[01:08:09] No.

[01:08:10] And there's no explanation given.

[01:08:13] No.

[01:08:14] It's not how.

[01:08:15] I mean maybe it is just a you know an instinctive gesture to hold up your hands against some kind of, but.

[01:08:20] For Galatriel she was standing absolutely straight and still and staring at it and it wasn't a crouch on the protect me kind of the thing it was she just held up her hand.

[01:08:29] So I don't know listeners right in.

[01:08:32] Tell us what you think.

[01:08:34] I think we've mind the episode for as much as we possibly can in terms of ritual.

[01:08:41] Haven't we?

[01:08:42] Well particularly since we have a whole lot of feedback today and we don't want to run for three hours so we're not going to do that folks but we are going to take a break again and when we come back.

[01:08:55] We'll be hearing from some of you.

[01:08:58] Excellent.

[01:09:11] Welcome back it's time for feedback.

[01:09:14] So our first message comes to us from Arthur Harrow and he wrote to us.

[01:09:23] He said he couldn't find how to do that but you can do that by writing to.

[01:09:29] Rings and rituals all worn word at the lorehounds.com or if you are looking for the website.

[01:09:36] It is the lorehounds.com slash podcast slash rings dash and dash rituals.

[01:09:44] So Arthur writes today you discussed at our we know his name means father and we hear heard this word in the name of a hour when Ben Eddard which is one of the names of Tom Bombadill which means oldest and father less.

[01:09:59] In Hebrew the prefix Ben means son of.

[01:10:02] So if you run into Bombadill should you say who is your daddy?

[01:10:06] That is so awesome.

[01:10:08] That is absolutely Arthur I wanted to introduce this audience to Arthurisms.

[01:10:13] If you ever run across him or hear him I think sometimes shows up on the after hours PPP recordings and just prepare yourself for puns because that seems to be Arthur's calling card.

[01:10:28] But here's another of my favorite people Edd the Easterling.

[01:10:32] Yes who jumps in to say hi and to say I've enjoyed the first two episodes nothing profound to add but I greatly enjoyed the talk between Sarah and Marilyn.

[01:10:40] Thanks for that Ed.

[01:10:41] Thank you Ed.

[01:10:42] I we greatly enjoyed the talk between ourselves so I'm glad to know that other people enjoy it too.

[01:10:48] Fairly said it's like reliving the show again which is awesome with a magnifying glass on ritual.

[01:10:56] It really brings the show and Tolkien's world back to life loving your chemistry and discussions.

[01:11:04] I'm finished listening to the latest R&R episode and I love your talk about stone singing.

[01:11:10] When I'd originally watched the rings of power I was enamored by this concept.

[01:11:14] The fabric of Tolkien's universe is the song of the Inaur as the adopted children of eroic aluvitar.

[01:11:20] It is only fitting that walls have a method of singing that connects them more closely to the stone.

[01:11:25] Yeah I love that.

[01:11:26] Isn't that incredible?

[01:11:28] And why I never occurred to me before I don't know but Aaron that that's just it's wonderful.

[01:11:33] I really really appreciate that idea and that will be with me from now on whenever I watch that scene.

[01:11:41] And then we hear from Abby Zephgu who says,

[01:11:44] Jumping into express my admiration and gratitude for this beautiful podcast I found they caught up with.

[01:11:50] I love your approach to the subject.

[01:11:53] I will confess that I was on the fence with it for this long time because I didn't especially love the season of rings of power overall.

[01:12:01] Just bits here and there.

[01:12:03] But I love and rewatch yearly the Peter Jackson movies and loved the books.

[01:12:07] Hearing you both on episode one about how the elves don't feel polka nish, I felt vindicated.

[01:12:12] That said, your approach warms me up to getting back into the world for the new season.

[01:12:17] And of course I am now a faithful listener of rings and rituals.

[01:12:21] Lovely.

[01:12:22] Thank you, Abby. Thank you, Abby.

[01:12:24] I'm glad that we've given you a way in because I think there's always something to appreciate at least in every adapt never seen so far.

[01:12:37] You know, balanced sometimes with a lot more than I really don't appreciate but sure.

[01:12:42] Yeah.

[01:12:43] And you say things to criticize about the show absolutely.

[01:12:46] Of course we do and other other adaptations as well.

[01:12:49] And even the original series in me, come on.

[01:12:52] Right.

[01:12:53] There are going to be glitches everywhere.

[01:12:56] Of course.

[01:12:57] Of course.

[01:12:58] Okay.

[01:12:59] Sub-zero says just listening to the beginnings part I could listen to your recite Exit's All Day.

[01:13:05] Well, we could do that.

[01:13:07] We can we can throw it some more.

[01:13:09] Yes.

[01:13:12] We did that was when we were reading examples of rituals from Legendarium.

[01:13:17] And sorry, I think you brought people to tears over some of the things that you were reading that were so beautiful.

[01:13:24] Oh, the third and that's what it was.

[01:13:26] You read the third and sub-uneral.

[01:13:29] Right. And how poignant is that given the news that we had this week about the death of the Burnett Hill?

[01:13:36] Oh, my goodness. I felt sad all day.

[01:13:39] We really cared.

[01:13:40] Yeah.

[01:13:41] Yeah.

[01:13:42] And it's interesting that he could play a character so beautifully and have it so beautifully that I think at least in my mind I think in many people's minds the actor will always be associated with the role.

[01:13:57] Oh, absolutely.

[01:13:59] Every time I think of Sayodin actually I have Burnett Hill's face in my mind because he just seems to inhabit.

[01:14:08] If you like the character of Sayodin.

[01:14:11] Yeah, because yeah, just it's just wonderful.

[01:14:16] I mean there's a quote that I actually did put on Twitter or a fews to call it X on Twitter that just sort of encapsulated this.

[01:14:29] So bear with me a second.

[01:14:31] Of course.

[01:14:33] And he was laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things that he had possessed.

[01:14:39] And over him was raised a great mound covered with green turves of grass and a white evermind.

[01:14:45] And now there were eight mounds on the east side of the battlefield.

[01:14:51] Yeah.

[01:14:52] Thank you, Burnett Hill.

[01:14:54] Thank you, Burnett.

[01:14:57] Fairfoo.

[01:14:58] Burnett.

[01:14:59] Here's a good question for us to discuss from again for earlier.

[01:15:05] So so you guys don't think so, Ron.

[01:15:08] AKA, Helbrand had the whole finding a lasry on the raft and the seamstress plan.

[01:15:12] So no, where lers.

[01:15:14] Hmm.

[01:15:15] Yeah, exactly.

[01:15:17] So possibly I will step out on a limb and say that I don't think he did.

[01:15:25] No, I don't think he did either.

[01:15:27] I can see why people might think he did, especially with cough spoilers.

[01:15:32] We'll get to that.

[01:15:34] Yes, yes.

[01:15:35] Yes.

[01:15:36] Yeah.

[01:15:37] It's so Ron was nothing if not an opportunist.

[01:15:42] And there it is, canon in the literature that he did initially repent.

[01:15:49] Yes.

[01:15:50] Yes.

[01:15:51] So we don't get many details of this.

[01:15:55] But we also know that when he went to monoise Harold and said, hey, I realized I really messed up here.

[01:16:04] Do you think he could take me back in and I'll start helping to repair everything?

[01:16:08] And the Harold said, I'm sorry but you and I are at the same level.

[01:16:13] You've got to go to the higher authority and so on thought.

[01:16:17] Hmm, maybe not.

[01:16:20] So, you know, take that at all into consideration when you consider sound on in the second age.

[01:16:28] Okay, Matt says thank you for the half foot discussion in this newest episode.

[01:16:33] This is a discussion I've been looking forward to thinking the half foot's were judged a little too harshly by some.

[01:16:38] I've been wondering whether the stranger will also teach them more pity if he is who we think he probably shouldn't be.

[01:16:45] You would have learned that himself from the end now.

[01:16:47] That's a whole conversation.

[01:16:49] I think it's very, very tactfully expressed to you.

[01:16:52] Yeah, I think so too.

[01:16:53] That might then be a part of what's often some of their practices and teaches them other ways of doing things that don't lower their survival rates.

[01:17:01] Also one practical question for your podcast will you do some episodes after you finish talking through the series where you focus on one story line at a time.

[01:17:09] There is advantage of going episode by episode as you have to put a pin in a lot of things along the way like we had to today.

[01:17:16] Just 10 minutes ago, right?

[01:17:18] A couple of episodes at the end could be a nice verb gathering all of these together and it would mean more time listening to the two of you which would also be a plus while that's lovely and I don't see why not.

[01:17:27] Thank you, Matt.

[01:17:28] Sure.

[01:17:29] We can certainly, certainly add that to the list.

[01:17:32] We do have one bonus episode about music which will appear at some point in the not too distant future.

[01:17:37] But it could be very interesting to pick up a thread.

[01:17:43] And follow it on the way through and see what that reveals.

[01:17:47] Yeah, well thank you.

[01:17:49] We will definitely take that under advisement and then follow up.

[01:17:53] I also want to stress that I'm really enjoying the episodes as they are.

[01:17:57] The suggestion is also just a way to stretch out the fun.

[01:18:01] You just don't want the story to be over matches that it's something like that.

[01:18:06] Yes, something along those lines.

[01:18:10] Brian 863, who of course we read out his question earlier, which we weren't debating.

[01:18:15] He says the podcast is a masterclass well done and so much to learn.

[01:18:20] Cute Brian.

[01:18:21] Thank you Brian.

[01:18:22] Yeah, that's really lovely.

[01:18:23] I mean you take two teachers and you put them together in two professorial types.

[01:18:31] And you either get there so you get chaos.

[01:18:34] And you know, not sure which one we're getting today.

[01:18:37] Sometimes a little bit of both.

[01:18:40] Oh, here's your favorite name. Two kids, two dogs.

[01:18:45] Hi, Marilyn and Sarah just finished watching listening to episodes 2 and 3.

[01:18:51] I was struck how I totally missed the rituals practiced by the orcs at the end of episode 3.

[01:18:56] I have to wonder if I just had some kind of blinders on thinking that they were two brutal beings to be capable of rituals.

[01:19:03] Also, I know that Tolkien later in life question where the orcs were originally elves.

[01:19:07] But I thought it was very interesting if they used the elvish word for father as a former elves.

[01:19:13] This is what they would think of or name a daughter.

[01:19:17] And also, yeah, we discussed it in way about oaks having rituals just in this episode.

[01:19:26] Yeah, but we could be here for an hour talking about all the different versions of where do our orcs come from that Tolkien actually came up with.

[01:19:35] Definitely definitely he he wrestled with that one almost to the end of this life it was one of the last writings that he did was about works and where did they come from.

[01:19:49] And then my fellow balat Jean who does a lot of co-hosting of podcasts with various lore hands.

[01:19:57] Right, great pod really and you know as one who does them I highly value your feedback that way Jean so thank you.

[01:20:06] In episode 2 when Sarah talks about the importance of strength and endurance in northern culture.

[01:20:12] They'd me think how the show tells us that those traits are also important to the harfots vastly different cultures as they are.

[01:20:20] As well, but for quite different reasons as shown when it's question where the naughty father can make the journey or not.

[01:20:27] And then Elisia another valah who hosts more podcasts than I can name.

[01:20:32] Chimes in with Jean and says great point.

[01:20:38] The the doors have often fascinated me of written and spoken before about dwarf women which I think because of their absence in the texts.

[01:20:48] One of the things I really love about decent one of them many, many things I love about these oh yeah yeah it's hard not to love her right and the my first thought here is every culture requires strength and endurance.

[01:21:02] What's different is how do you demonstrate that how are you tested what sorts of ways do you find to deal with that.

[01:21:14] Yeah yeah because each culture faces its own difficulties and then often very specific to that culture.

[01:21:23] And it's what you do with that as you say how you respond to it.

[01:21:28] Often then tells us a lot more about their culture right yeah sometimes it tells us a little bit about ourselves.

[01:21:37] Because well I might not respond that way right but you're not a very culture right and that's what really leads I think to you know deeper understanding.

[01:21:49] And you know another interesting question to ask is will what would I do.

[01:21:53] If I were in that situation and in that condition and so on and so on and so on.

[01:21:57] Excellent point yeah yeah okay Davey Mac says I thoroughly enjoyed episode three the half of rituals discussed as well as add art the two things I responded to most when the show was airing.

[01:22:09] So it was fun listening to you both talking about it and I appreciate you reading out my message on the show you are very welcome.

[01:22:16] Yeah yes looking forward to the next one oh and back on first episode you both talked about birthdays and there was also feedback on this latest episode about birthday cakes and it reminded me.

[01:22:26] But I was going to send in feedback about birthdays among my Filipino colleagues here in Japan that I found really unique and different to the way I'm used to celebrating the states.

[01:22:34] I just never got around to sending you then get around to sending it in absolutely what a teaser come on yeah leave it on the edge of our seats like that tell us tell us.

[01:22:46] And then again from Aaron K I have just started the ad art episode and super excited for this one this is my favorite episode of rings of power.

[01:22:54] I've been recommending rings and rituals to every Tolkien fan I know you guys are killing it thank you Aaron.

[01:23:00] I put in a little plug here and say you're word of mouth one of the best ways you can support us so yes.

[01:23:06] Do what Aaron does who by the way is a member of the dune di so you know that he's good the dune di and are the wonderful folks who serve as mods for the discord channel so.

[01:23:17] Wonderful and thank you for everything that you do to help keep discord channels clean and safe for the rest of us yes yes thank you very very much.

[01:23:26] I'm really interested how many people commented that episode three was so favorite because I think I remember saying that episode three was what decided me to do this whole podcast in the first place so.

[01:23:38] Showrunners and script writers please take note yes absolutely you heard it here first listen to us.

[01:23:46] So that's it for this episode right in and let us know what you think any suggestions you might have for rituals for us to talk about.

[01:23:53] And anything else you'd like to share with us including the recipes for birthday cakes of Filipinos yes absolutely.

[01:24:00] We welcome your feedback at rings and rituals at the lorhands.com or on lorhands discord server where we have a special channel set up just for rings and rituals.

[01:24:10] On the lorhands website there's also a contact form and a voicemail feature so look for the contact us link at the bottom of the page.

[01:24:17] We're aiming to publish two episodes a month but if you follow any of the lorhands podcasts you'll hear our ads and they let you know when the next episode is approaching.

[01:24:26] Also be sure to check out the other podcasts supported by the Barovian broadcasting network.

[01:24:32] There's the properly Howard movie review with Steven Anthony who are currently reviewing various films under the category of felonies and fugacies.

[01:24:42] Now I didn't know what a fugacy was either best equivalent I think is snafu.

[01:24:48] Oh, you know, okay spelled it all out you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[01:24:53] And if that isn't clear well just go listen to the podcast and you'll find out.

[01:24:58] Alicia is doing wool shift dust.

[01:25:01] But her latest podcast venture which I listened to the first couple episodes and it's really good.

[01:25:07] The Star Wars can in timeline podcast if you are like me totally confused about the books and the video games and the in-can and the out-can all that malange that is the Starworth universe.

[01:25:18] This is your podcast.

[01:25:21] Go ahead and give it a listen and some things at least will be untangled. There is a lot more than I could really cope with it one time, but you know you can always re-list and if you want to.

[01:25:30] And of course we have John and David on the main lorhands podcast.

[01:25:34] They're currently reviewing season one of the House of the Dragon in advance of season two coming along in June along with all kinds of other glitnesses.

[01:25:43] Links for all of these are in the show notes.

[01:25:47] So thanks to our recording engineer and editor, bump.

[01:25:50] The David and John are producers and to John for arranging our theme music as well as all the others who support us along the way.

[01:25:58] If you would like to support us and the podcast.

[01:26:01] Rate and review us on your podcast your choice though I will stress that Apple does really get the algorithm going for us.

[01:26:08] Or find us on patreon at patreon.com slash the lorhands.

[01:26:13] Subscribers will get access to ad free versions of all the podcasts as well as many other benefits.

[01:26:18] So until next time then remember, the wise also look upon what is in our hearts.

[01:26:24] However, farewell for now.

[01:26:27] Not getting mean until we meet again.