Sara revels in dwarves, even in the midst of their dilemmas, Marilyn treasures the shrine of Nienna, the oldest shrine in Númenor, and both grieve over its desecration, agreeing that Kemen is a broken wart of a human being. They see symbols of seeds everywhere, retch metaphorically over Annatar‘s gaslighting, and wonder whether it is possible that Celebrimbor is the better smith of the two. And they ponder the ways in which Númenorean rituals have changed since the days of Tar Elros – and why are they talking about green countries and swift sunrises anyway?
Contact Us
Questions or comments? Send emails to: ringsandrituals@thelorehounds.com
You can also leave us a voicemail through our website, or record a voice note on your smartphone and send it to the email address above.
http://thelorehounds.com/contact
Rings & Rituals is part of the Lorehounds Network. Find us, our community Discord, and all our affiliates at:
https://linktr.ee/thelorehounds
Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
00:13 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome back to rings and ritual season 2, where we will be examining each episode of season 2 of the Panama case series, Rings of Power, in preparation for the introduction of season 3 this November, and today's episode is Halls of Stone.
00:28 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Sara Shield made in a Rohan.
00:30 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Rivingdale.
00:33 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And whether you've listened to all of our episodes from Season 1, or this is the first time you've ever heard of us, we're delighted you're here.
00:39 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be following our pattern from Season 1 by reviewing what we mean by ritual and then applying those concepts to the different examples of ritual that we find in the series.
00:48 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And from this, we'll discuss how Pena McKay depicted the cultures that they were adapting to their series.
00:55 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_00]: To get in touch with us, we're getting some excellent feedback and we'd love to have yours as well.
01:00 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: You can email us at ringsandritualsattholorehounds.com, or you can join our ringsandrituals channel on the Laura Hound's Discord.
01:10 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll include all that information in the show notes.
01:12 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to say that we are a proud affiliate of the Laura Hound's Barovian Broadcasting Network, where you'll find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, films, books, video games, and other
01:26 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Now as we said, we'll be identifying any rituals that we see in the episode and discussing them from the perspective of the intention, the outcome, the musical background and what the ritual tells us about the culture it is depicting.
01:41 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: we may come up with some other discussion points along the way we seem to be pretty good at that don't you just say yes we do indeed are the before that we'll have a quick break and when we come back we'll bring you the meat all the tofu for our vegan or vegetarian listeners without any of that
02:09 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, our main focus is on ritual to aid our listener's memories will begin each section with a synopsis of events.
02:17 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Please note, we are doing full on spoilers from both seasons throughout these episodes.
02:23 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_00]: If that isn't what you want, then go and binge the entirety of seasons 1 and 2, and then come back and join us.
02:29 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Sara, will you take us away?
02:31 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I will indeed.
02:32 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Slow.
02:33 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Despite his sons foreboding, King Doran puts on the dwarf ring that calls to him most strongly.
02:39 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He then enters the mining tunnels and uses the guidance of the ring to identify places for the miners to dig to open new light shafts and restore sunlight once more to the kingdom of Khazad Doom.
02:51 --> 02:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's notable that King feels as one particular ring that calls to him Marilyn.
02:56 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did find that interesting.
02:58 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get quite as much of a hint of that with the album rings.
03:03 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
03:04 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: No, if I didn't get any of that with the album rings where each one seemed individually destined for one person.
03:13 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_01]: No, here it does feel like this one sang to him in some ways.
03:20 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: He definitely was drawn to it.
03:22 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
03:23 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
03:23 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
03:27 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good thing.
03:28 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so either to be perfectly honest.
03:32 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: We shall see.
03:33 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Indeed.
03:37 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Moving along, in Eregian, a contingent of elves and dwarves celebrates their partnership and its most recent outcome, the doors of Duran, and the tar inpatient, leaves the festivities and
03:55 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_00]: or unnatal claims to be wholly taken up with the suffering of humans and still wanting to create nine rings for the best, the purist of men to use, to hold back the rising shadow.
04:07 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_00]: A discussion in sews, during which time, pillar-pring-bore observes that anatar will plant seeds, of a new idea in someone, until they decide that that idea came forth themselves in the first place.
04:23 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_00]: After some more back and forth, Caleb put him more insist that he will not make rings for humans.
04:30 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And then at our replies, then you will make them himself.
04:34 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Natal, we'll plant seeds.
04:38 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, dear listeners, how many rituals have we seen of planting seeds?
04:43 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Amongst the elves, actually, we've seen it now a few times, haven't we?
04:47 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we had the contrast of both Arondir and Adar planting seeds before the battle in season one.
04:56 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so that's for starters.
04:59 --> 05:06 [SPEAKER_00]: We saw at the beginning of this season, Caladriel in a dream of, you know, it was a vision planting seeds.
05:07 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: to honor the memory of her brother in the very memorial garden of where the tree with her brother's image is carved and wow did that ever turn out bad.
05:19 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, so do we think that this is a deliberate drop-in of that phrase, a some kind of foreshadowing?
05:28 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Feels like it.
05:29 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, because I, when I think of seeds, I think of roots, and I think of the visual image that gave us when the mountain blew up and how these dark root-like structures began spreading out and touching all the dwarven colonies.
05:44 --> 05:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Or foundations, or I should say, you know, their castles, their palaces, their beautiful dwellings, and associate it directly with the shifting of the stones and the shutting up of the various light shafts.
05:59 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
06:00 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this metaphor of planting seeds is actually serving a variety of purposes in this series, isn't it?
06:07 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Affirmation of life before battle, memorializing the dead, and here weaving webs of deception.
06:14 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.
06:15 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and as a gardener, I really hate to think that anything is horrible as cell runs deception could be associated with seeds, but
06:25 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are certain seeds that I really don't want to my garden, and I certainly know about invasive species, so that is true.
06:31 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I think there are some other rituals going on in this particular section, Marlin indeed, there were we were seeing some elvish rituals of hospitality, speeches, drinks, good nature teasing, it was possibly less formal perhaps and would be just elf on elf, but it was still pleasurable.
06:52 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They seem to be having a lot of fun.
06:57 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet this whole scene makes me question, could it really be possible that at this point and the thought of does not have the skill to make nine rings for humans?
07:08 --> 07:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is to say about his status as a Maya of Aure, regardless of the form which he's appearing?
07:15 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?
07:16 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it depends on if we're taking what he's saying at face value.
07:20 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's saying that he needs calibreable for this.
07:27 --> 07:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but does he really, or is it just part of him trying to enmesh caliber and more further into his machinations?
07:37 --> 07:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm getting the impression that he really doesn't know how, because it comes up again in the later scene, when Kela Brimboor loses his temper and always almost blurt's out.
07:50 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you shouldn't do this.
07:51 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You should
07:55 --> 08:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so I do think that there is something that Kelo Brumboor has come up with that either Annotar doesn't know at all or can't figure out probably more the latter and well that got has to really get up Annotar's nose, which I think
08:12 --> 08:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, considering who he is and what he thinks of himself as a craft, well, can't say craftsman, craftsman, craftsman, Harrison, how about, a crafty being a crafty being indeed.
08:28 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But I suppose, and spoilers, obviously, there has to be a reason why he keeps Caleb Rimbour around, because if he could do all this by himself, he could just
08:40 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_00]: exactly.
08:41 --> 08:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So props to Caleb Brimboire for being a better Smith than a Maya.
08:48 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, take that fanor.
08:52 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, out.
08:53 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, I don't know if it'd be on fanor, but in this case, I think, you know, it does a lot.
09:01 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_01]: No, she makes a very good pinata.
09:03 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know a lot of people liked that, but you know, Quaker inclinations.
09:07 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like to beat up on anybody.
09:08 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_00]: What can I
09:10 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_01]: This is true.
09:11 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, meanwhile in Numenor, Phara's on suggest to his son Kevin that the view of Toler S.A.A.A.
09:18 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_01]: from a top menal tarmo was put there to taunt humans, with the realization that however high they reached in power, eternal life would always be beyond their grasp.
09:28 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin tries to point out the power that his father now has with the scepter.
09:33 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_01]: His father tells him that his mother prophesied he would come to a bad end, and hopes that Kevin would not prove her right with the task that he is about to give him, I mean, out.
09:43 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Farazon is another example of not father of the decade.
09:47 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, not father of the third age and second age and first age.
09:54 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And the look on Kevin's face,
09:58 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when Fata's on actually mentions his mother, a gaming and instant, okay, they've never talked about her.
10:07 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Kevin knows almost nothing about her.
10:09 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So any scrap of information is going to be treasured.
10:12 --> 10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Until it turns out to be, yeah, she always said you'd come to a bad end.
10:16 --> 10:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you can believe Fara's on, I mean, again, he's not somebody I would necessarily trust the word of,
10:23 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Fair point, and yet I think Kevin does believe it.
10:27 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether it's already because he's been so squashed or whatever he does.
10:33 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin is one of those characters.
10:34 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean he is a bit of a little weasel, isn't he?
10:37 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet there are moments where I feel quite sorry for him and this was one of them.
10:42 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I think his weaseliness came directly from his father's attitudes towards his son.
10:48 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Could they?
10:48 --> 10:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I really do.
10:49 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, what kind of seeds do we have planted in us at our birth to force the metaphor perhaps worth?
10:57 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I should.
10:58 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_00]: But still.
11:00 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, this is the whole nature and nurture thing.
11:02 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I think we've already seen an example or two of Kevin really wanting to please his father.
11:11 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, or at least impress him.
11:13 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe um, please necessarily.
11:14 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So a touch of the, uh, Caleb and Boris there as well.
11:19 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:20 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:22 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a real contrast, isn't it, with Isilder and Elendil?
11:27 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You do have a sense of Isilder wanting to please his father as well.
11:34 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But Elendil's a very different father figure to far as on.
11:42 --> 11:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I would hope so.
11:45 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Far as on, not model for a father of the year.
11:48 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we've established this.
11:50 --> 12:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, Isildor has this other burden, doesn't he, which he tells Esther about, his whole deal is much more about himself, feeling that he has finally earned the gift that his mother gave him of not only saving his life, but losing her life in the process.
12:10 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a whole theme here of fathers and sons, though, isn't there?
12:14 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
12:16 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: For one thing, we don't see that many mothers or daughters.
12:20 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes.
12:21 --> 12:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Tolkien, even Tolkien has his...
12:27 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_00]: things that we wish he might have done differently.
12:28 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's put that way.
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_00]: This is true.
12:32 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But the one thing I want to bring us back to is this idea that from that it's that close view of the Blessed Isles was intended to taunt mortals.
12:44 --> 12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you think he has this idea?
12:46 --> 12:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would the Valar be cruel?
12:49 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I really did not understand the line when he delivered it and I'm still not really sure why they had him say that I think it's part of the underlying tension between what is going to lead to new and old fall in the series because we're just beginning to see the whole religious peace coming in.
13:15 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But the only time I've seen a mention of fear of death is found us on standing at the tomb of Todd Palantir.
13:27 --> 13:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And now in this close view of the blessed aisle, because he feels taunted by the fact that he thinks can live forever, which we know is not exactly right.
13:38 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And he knows that he is mortal and he's going to die.
13:40 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So perhaps this is their very subtle slow ramp up.
13:45 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_01]: to an eventual powders on who is just terrified and all of his actions coming from that terror of death and obsessed it becomes obsessed doesn't he with the idea of death and avoiding death and I suppose this this moment sort of does play into that anti elf sentiment that he's clearly building on oh yeah and that's been clear from the very first season yeah
14:14 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, trying to jinn up elf hatred and so on, and so on.
14:19 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, why would he envision the ballot to be in cruel?
14:25 --> 14:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I think when you have rejected some really massive power and in your heart of hearts, you know they're a massive power.
14:33 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_00]: They can't be good anymore, so you have to put labels on them.
14:39 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, the eagle coming, he really
14:44 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_00]: concept.
14:46 --> 14:48 [SPEAKER_00]: He helped by his totes, of course.
14:49 --> 15:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now we see it further emphasized and it goes all the way back to that scene where we saw the two brothers, Elinos and Elron on either side of that tapestry or whatever form of art it was in the ancient library with the ancient scrolls in season one.
15:08 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: They started off as brothers.
15:10 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_00]: One shows one way one shows the other.
15:14 --> 15:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Tate was, could have chosen to be an elf, but he didn't.
15:18 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So all these generations later, I guess they've lost the reasons why Tate not lost made that choice.
15:28 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the setup has to be something else, and that is one decides that it's the valor being cool.
15:35 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, make sense.
15:37 --> 15:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a little bit more ritual to talk about in the next section, if you want to get into the next bit of synopsis.
15:44 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
15:46 --> 15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the old tales, Muriel, that the faithful in the old quarter are saying daily prayers for her restoration to the scepter, and urges her to retake it with that backing.
15:57 --> 16:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Muriel asks him what he saw when his hand touched the Palantir.
16:02 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_00]: and he says he saw himself writing a way to an unknown destiny.
16:08 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: This encourages her in her belief that they are meant to do nothing against Fatazon, but rather to remain the calm in the eye of the storm.
16:18 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_00]: As this is the first time in many years that anyone has seen anything other than Numanor's downfall in the stone.
16:27 --> 16:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating the elendialisine something different.
16:30 --> 16:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, and I have to think that photos on is seeing something different as well Although I'm not sure we're not being really clear.
16:37 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He's he's looked into the stone twice now to make him every is correct And he's not pleased either time.
16:44 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No Yes, absolutely true beyond that.
16:47 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's pure speculation on anybody's part
16:52 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So what ritual do we see here?
16:55 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, well, we have the faithful praying to the valor.
17:02 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_00]: and praying to one's God or God's to avert suffering or to bring changes, certainly an ancient practice, whether you have the notion of personages or trees or the storm God or the earthquake God.
17:17 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: This goes very far back and this is where we first develop unfortunately to my mind, this notion of a transactional power that if I do this, then you won't do this, please.
17:29 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: know tell me how I can please use so that you won't punish me which to my mind again is just it just painful to me to think that so many people for so many eons would live with this kind of concept and yet praying to one's deity or deities is also a form of comfort.
17:49 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because you couldn't recognize there is something bigger than myself, I can go to that being and if nothing else express my grief and my fear and all my other emotional states that I wish I could calm down with a hope again.
18:09 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe they can bring about some change.
18:13 --> 18:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is this sense of the faithful few, and there is an Old Testament story.
18:21 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if we're basically Abraham bargains down God, he's going to destroy this city and Abraham says, well, if there's a thousand faithful, can you not?
18:31 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And, well, if there's 10, can you know, it comes, if there's one faithful person remaining, would you hold your hand and God says to Abraham, will for your sake, I will hold my hand if you can find one.
18:44 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And he doesn't.
18:45 --> 18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, goodbye, big city.
18:52 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that kind of vengeful God of the Old Testament is a little bit scary.
18:58 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_00]: More than a little bit, you know, again, underlying that whole transactional concept.
19:06 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, although it does have the flip side of that which is, you know, those two follow my ways, you know, they will receive good things and so even that it's used to me as something of a questionable promise because an awful other thing bad things happen to good people so I think a different kind of theology is required.
19:26 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: in that sense, and interesting that those following the old ways are living in the old quarter.
19:33 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I noticed that as well.
19:35 --> 19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the one thing I would have liked, it's a shame we don't get even a little glimpse of it is the people at prayer and how they do that.
19:46 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, because different cultures pray in very different ways and I would have really liked to have seen a
19:53 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: That would have been really interesting, you have any ideas, what do you think they might have been doing that?
19:59 --> 20:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know when I was visualizing it, I had the kind of Roman kind of idea where you have like your household gods and you have a thing in one of the main rooms of the house and you bring offerings to the household god like bowls of fruit or flowers or something like that.
20:18 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just I had that kind of visual in my mind, I don't know why, but it seems to fit
20:23 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's certainly chimed with what we have seen of in an audience ritual group ritual, because we had the large statue of Niana.
20:32 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was also the smaller, more human-sized statue.
20:36 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, human in the sense of, you know, she was what between one and two feet tall.
20:40 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and that's kind of what I had in mind, I think, where I was thinking of like the ancient Roman rituals where you would have little statues or, you know, a little corner of one of the rooms would be set aside as the shrine to one of the gods.
21:06 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_00]: wanting you to be in a little room and contained.
21:09 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine they want you to be at the cliff edge or on the beach or somewhere near the ocean because that is their home.
21:18 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you decide to throw flowers in or other kinds of sacrifices or dunk yourself, there's a lot of possible forms that might take depending upon why you're calling on them and what you're asking for.
21:32 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah, that would make sense.
21:35 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I would visualize someone like Aldary on, for example, actually speaking to Osse or Lady Uyne and went out on his ship on deck.
21:46 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, exactly.
21:48 --> 21:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, thank you.
21:49 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_00]: We have the bow of return, which we did see.
21:52 --> 21:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody said anything about it.
21:54 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But we did see it on the Nemanorian vessels.
21:57 --> 22:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, when they were sailing to and from Middle Earth.
22:02 --> 22:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So clearly these examples are present if we know what to look for.
22:10 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_00]: and yet some of them make me question a few things but we'll get to that when we get to that.
22:16 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, because we're going to come to some of those sea rituals in a moment, I think.
22:21 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we are.
22:22 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we are.
22:23 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But in the meantime, where are we now?
22:26 --> 22:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we are still with the Lendil.
22:28 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_01]: He leaves the palace and comes across a line of his former sea guards who are giving in their uniforms because they cannot pledge loyalty to King Farrison.
22:37 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: A Lendil is shocked to learn that it's on his daughter's authority that this is taking place.
22:42 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: A Aryan tries to maintain that her position is based upon anger with Muriel for using the stone to chart Numenor's course, which ended in her brother's death.
22:52 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Elendiel sees it differently, and warns her that the path that she is treading may become sea-water.
22:58 --> 23:07 [SPEAKER_01]: A Aryan tries to persuade Valandiel to let her get his name off the list because he is her oldest friend, but he refuses the offer.
23:09 --> 23:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he does.
23:11 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_00]: As Elendiel turns to leave, one of the sailors in line calls, Captain leaving deck,
23:22 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: and Elendil suppressing his anger and his grief, with difficulty, acknowledges this and turns in his sword.
23:32 --> 23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: As he leaves various members of the Sea Guard called Lesson's on him in the name of the Valor.
23:39 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Fathas on himself looks into the Palantir without any observers, but we are given no indication of what he sees.
23:51 --> 23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: no.
23:54 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So we see some examples of sea guard rituals acknowledging the departure of a captain leaving the deck is clearly something that they are used to doing every time they are on board ship and the captain leaves and there is a particular way of saluting that.
24:21 --> 24:38 [SPEAKER_00]: In the earlier versions, I don't know if the more recent ones have it, but the original series and also now, I'm catching up finally on strange new worlds, and they had that saying, whistle sound when captains come on deck, but also acknowledgement captain leaving deck.
24:39 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But this, of course, is weighted with so much more emotional significance.
24:44 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just any leave taking.
24:47 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It is over.
24:49 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is done.
24:51 --> 25:01 [SPEAKER_00]: This may well be the last time that any sailors will acknowledge a lendil as a captain leaving the deck.
25:01 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: and of course these sailors too are giving up their position because they can't swear allegiance to Farrason so they may well not be sailing for Numenor again and he will not represent them as captain and so both sides are fair welling aren't they?
25:21 --> 25:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, in a very formalized manner, but rituals often could create these containers that allow us to express very potent emotions in a more contained controlled way.
25:37 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And particularly because of the quasi-military feel of the seaguard, you know,
25:43 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: losing your composure and breaking down and so forth, probably would not be looked upon very well.
25:49 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So they are maintaining a composure that reflects well on the sea guards in their tradition, as they see it.
25:57 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:59 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll land the old too, you know, we often go to anger when what we're really feeling is grief.
26:06 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that both of those were present there for him.
26:09 --> 26:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
26:11 --> 26:18 [SPEAKER_01]: The next bit that is really noteworthy is the way in which they call the blessings of the vala to support and sustain their captain.
26:18 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's clearly a tradition to call upon the vala in these moments as well.
26:28 --> 26:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is probably another reason why they really don't want to have anything to do with whatever ferrous on decides to do with the sea guard.
26:39 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_00]: They know they're very lives depend on a good relationship with these beings and remember their initial call on response that we saw in season one?
26:51 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yes, yes.
26:53 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Goodness, that feels like a long time ago, but yes, it does.
26:55 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: The sea is always right.
26:57 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:58 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if I'm a purely practical standpoint, any sailor will tell you that you don't argue with whatever water you're sailing on.
27:04 --> 27:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's just, it's always going to win.
27:08 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
27:09 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
27:10 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_00]: If you do, you know, things that are not to your advantage, so we say.
27:13 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and these men, even though they're not going to be part of the formal sea guard, their lives are still as sailors.
27:21 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they would want to keep speaking to the same Valar, they would want to keep on the right side of the sea and of the Valar.
27:30 --> 27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's all of that up play here.
27:34 --> 27:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and there's another very, for me, very potent image from the season one.
27:45 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_00]: which was once a residence for new and audience mystics.
27:49 --> 27:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's all these little small cells.
27:51 --> 28:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when that was no longer a thing, they converted these cells to holding cells, presumably somebody gets to ride a strunk one night, they can sleep it off in a cell.
28:03 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a statue in there.
28:07 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_00]: From the former days, when there were new minority and mystics, it's a statue of Leiden.
28:14 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And you see her flowing hair, which is associated with the sea, it's an absolutely beautiful statue, and it's literally locked away.
28:23 --> 28:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, it is landlocked as much as anything on Numenal County, which seems so wrong.
28:30 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it certainly does to me, and I have to think it seems very wrong to the sailors as well.
28:34 --> 28:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how many sailors have been to mine in the cells, it's saw this.
28:38 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But all of these are sending us signals that this is a culture that is doing its best to suppress.
28:46 --> 29:10 [SPEAKER_00]: it's past relationships with the the demirages that in this world we know are real and have real tangible effects and it seems that the sea guards as a culture within the culture are the only ones who still hold with this, along with the faithful role in the old quarter of course and of course a combination of a number of different kinds of peoples.
29:11 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.
29:14 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So speculation time, hmmm, what do you think Feltesson saw in the Palantir?
29:21 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a theory, okay, or please tell us.
29:26 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a theory, now I could be utterly wrong, but to me there is a reason why a Lendiel sees something different in the Palantir to what other people have seen.
29:38 --> 29:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is because he is not going to be on Numenor when Numenor sinks.
29:44 --> 29:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful Sara.
29:45 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he will be elsewhere.
29:47 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, Miriel et al, who have looked into the plant here and seen the end of Numenor, they will be.
29:56 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they will see it.
29:59 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that close and personal.
30:00 --> 30:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that very much.
30:03 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So if that follows, then I think what Fatterzel and so in the Palantia was the destruction of Nomenal.
30:08 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
30:09 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that is quite likely.
30:12 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I do also know, in something rather than I saw or read, some people are stating as if it's true that I don't know if it was the first time or the second time he looked in, that he saw
30:31 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_00]: and realized that how brand and sorrow were the same being how that happened.
30:36 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, and this is what kind of gyms him up to say, right, I'm going to take care of this dude once and for all because he tricked me.
30:45 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what they're basing this on.
30:47 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly, I think if he did see this anywhere and trusted division, yeah, he would be very angry.
30:54 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But I like your idea, a whole lot better.
30:58 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It just seems simple, it may be that simple, you know?
31:02 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it Arkham's Razor, the simplest answer is usually the best?
31:06 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
31:07 --> 31:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Reiser are not, once you take us along to the next section.
31:12 --> 31:19 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, so Gil Gallard reads the letter sent by Lord Kelly Brimbaugh saying that he has closed down the forge.
31:20 --> 31:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But the vision he sees in his ring is not reassuring to him.
31:24 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: A military commander tries to persuade him that they must soon sail to Mordor if they are to defeat the armies of Adar.
31:30 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, El Rond and his remaining company raced to Lindon to give the hiking the
31:37 --> 31:44 [SPEAKER_01]: says a whole load of misdirection going on and, you know, what is really happening?
31:44 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people not really knowing what's going on in other parts of Middle-earth here.
31:49 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, each of the ring bears that we've seen, we still don't know what Kirito Dhan is doing with his ring.
31:56 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_00]: They're getting these visions and they're trying to figure out what they mean and how to make use of them or not.
32:06 --> 32:10 [SPEAKER_00]: and I wouldn't be your Goward for all the money you could get me.
32:12 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, the responsibility is enormous.
32:14 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
32:15 --> 32:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And now he has a real problem because he's got a letter sent by Lord Killer Brimble saying one thing, but the vision in the ring is telling him something very different.
32:24 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Who does he believe or what does he believe?
32:27 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and he's also experienced some of the visions that Galadriel have received from her ring before she followed his orders and went out under Eldron's command and I believe recognize that some of those are coming true or at least need to be looked into.
32:47 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:48 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's difficult.
32:50 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.
32:52 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: But now we are with my favorite couple.
32:56 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_00]: We're back at the dwarves.
32:57 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And you knew I had to give you this section.
32:59 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm so pleased.
33:01 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how much I love these too.
33:03 --> 33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm particularly decent.
33:05 --> 33:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I do.
33:05 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So, back with the dwarves, Disa expresses to Doran her distrust of the astonishing way in which the king is able to use his dwarven ring to discover new shaft locations for the light to come through, because of course this is not the way it's been done before and this is the sort of thing that she and the other stone singers used to do.
33:25 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
33:26 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But everybody else seems to be perfectly satisfied with this outcome, but she says that being able to hear stone is a gift from Aure and it takes a long time to develop.
33:37 --> 33:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The can't just pop a ring on and suddenly be able to do it, so that's why she's very worried about it.
33:44 --> 33:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The couple shops for a tuning stone for their young daughter to be able to start listening to the mountain.
33:49 --> 33:53 [SPEAKER_01]: As Lisa picks it up, somebody jossles her and she drops the stone.
33:54 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: After a rather disruptive chase through the crowded market, she follows the stone to a massive cabin that she apparently has never seen before.
34:02 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: She sings to the stone there and appears to awaken some massive water creature.
34:08 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, the king tells the messengers from the six other dwarf kings that these rings will allow them new power over their worlds and bring about a new era for dwarven kind.
34:19 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Later on, he crosses out all the old restrictions of areas for safe digging, which he himself had set, and orders Navi to begin recovering the ocean of riches that he perceives beneath them, despite Prince Dorin's tale of Deesa having stirred up
34:37 --> 34:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.
34:40 --> 34:42 [SPEAKER_00]: You read my mind.
34:42 --> 34:44 [SPEAKER_00]: No Palantino required.
34:45 --> 34:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Not for this one.
34:46 --> 34:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
34:47 --> 34:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
34:49 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So what was it that Disa stirred up in the water?
34:52 --> 34:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is it.
34:55 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because Balrogs don't tend to live in water.
35:03 --> 35:09 [SPEAKER_01]: because water and fire don't really go together, but something is a woken down there.
35:09 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
35:11 --> 35:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps what it's saying is that deep deep deep in the mountain are many nameless things, that it might be best not to disturb.
35:21 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_00]: You think?
35:23 --> 35:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm, yeah, I'll certainly.
35:25 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been hearing people say, oh, it's the bell, oh, I'm gonna make.
35:28 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the watcher in the water.
35:31 --> 35:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on the tin, hello.
35:33 --> 35:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And the bell rogue is not going for a swim.
35:38 --> 35:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
35:40 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everybody's entitled to their own interpretation.
35:43 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So listeners, if you disagree with me, I'm fine with that.
35:47 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry about it.
35:48 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
35:49 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we know from more of the rings when the bell rogue descended with Gandalf into the depths.
35:57 --> 36:05 [SPEAKER_00]: and they landed in the cold, okay, he turned into a slimy thing of strength with tentacles and whatnot.
36:05 --> 36:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So, all right, okay, make it stretch, I can see that.
36:10 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think that the watcher of the water in the third age was the ballerog who'd been taken abat.
36:16 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_00]: No, my sense is that there's two separate creatures.
36:19 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it would make sense that the watcher in the water was at one point
36:28 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_00]: There's plenty of water down there as we can see.
36:31 --> 36:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
36:32 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_01]: What we have though in this particular section is an account from DISA on the importance of the way in which one approach is learning to sing to the stone and why it's so important to have a particular way of learning this rather than simply popping on a ring and suddenly being able to do it.
36:54 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And she distrusts the shortcuts.
36:57 --> 37:03 [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't like it at all because to her, learning how to sing to stone.
37:03 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a gift from hourly and it's not something that you suddenly gain.
37:08 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to work and earn that gift from hourly.
37:12 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to become good at listening.
37:16 --> 37:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just about saying or singing.
37:19 --> 37:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about listening to the stone as well.
37:22 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not commanding the stone when you're singing to it.
37:26 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But the ring seems to be commanding it.
37:30 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I like that contrast because Disa also says that it requires some inborn skill to begin with.
37:42 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when she's looking for the stone for their daughter,
37:46 --> 37:51 [SPEAKER_00]: if she doesn't actually say it, the implication to me is very strong, that she needs this because she has the skill.
37:52 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now she starts to learn.
37:54 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're also given the clue that this ability starts very early in your life.
38:01 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to think that this notion that King Dordern is able to suddenly, as you say, identify, say spaces for light shaft locations, it's very
38:14 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_00]: of the concept of power over any machine in Tolkien's world.
38:19 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It's domination.
38:21 --> 38:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's imposing one's will on creation.
38:24 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And that just doesn't usually end very well.
38:27 --> 38:32 [SPEAKER_01]: No, and it's totally opposite to what Deesa and the other stone singers do, exactly.
38:32 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like I was saying, they don't just sing to the stone, they listen to it as well.
38:36 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a two-way conversation between the rock and the singer.
38:42 --> 38:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And the rock doesn't do as it's told, the rock listens to the song, and then chooses to give them what they need.
38:50 --> 38:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Or not.
38:52 --> 39:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But with this, what came to mind for me is like a metaphor for AI, if you like.
39:01 --> 39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:02 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_01]: What King Durin is doing is the AI version of writing music, whereas DISA does is the true craft person's version of creating and making music.
39:15 --> 39:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I just came to my mind.
39:17 --> 39:18 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I love that when that happens.
39:19 --> 39:21 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's, I think that's great because of course AI is
39:32 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_00]: ask them out.
39:33 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, they don't tell them.
39:36 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
39:37 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I think King Dordon is claiming the mountain is telling me things.
39:45 --> 39:49 [SPEAKER_00]: In the couple of scenes that I remembered him going around and saying, okay, yes, dig here.
39:51 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, the ring, okay, it's the ring that's showing me.
39:54 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
39:55 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the rock is speaking to you.
39:57 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think you're absolutely bringing that is.
39:59 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:59 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
40:00 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I realized maybe I picked that up from your head.
40:02 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_00]: He were telling me, he was laughing to me.
40:05 --> 40:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, okay, no, you're absolutely right.
40:08 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But he does frame it in terms of listening.
40:10 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, yeah, he's listening.
40:15 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_01]: He's just not listening to what he thinks he's listening to.
40:18 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:18 --> 40:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Fair point.
40:19 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Fair point.
40:20 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's all the more ominous that he is spreading these machines throughout the dwarven kingdoms.
40:28 --> 40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
40:29 --> 40:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's overriding his wisdom, his own orders from ages ago in order to increase as well.
40:37 --> 40:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which is the wrong kind of thing to be focusing on.
40:48 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm right.
40:48 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, do you want to move to the next bit of this inopsis?
40:52 --> 40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I will do that.
40:54 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_00]: In the forge, Yerdania is terrified by a living waking vision of an evil creature with skin of flame and terrible eyes.
41:04 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Anna Tartel's herge will look around and see that she is here now among friends.
41:09 --> 41:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Because a Brimboor asks what she had done differently this time while attempting to forge the new type of ring.
41:18 --> 41:22 [SPEAKER_00]: She says that she was trying to add more me thrilled to decrease the human tendency towards corruption.
41:24 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Brimboer, interrupts her and begins to say, you should then seize Anna Tharr and Stoss.
41:31 --> 41:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Anna Tharr says it would be immensely helpful if Kela Brimboer would share this piece of wisdom with him.
41:37 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Ha.
41:39 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_00]: By sorry, I could bring her more refuses.
41:41 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're fine.
41:41 --> 41:42 [SPEAKER_00]: You're fine.
41:42 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You go right ahead and express your disdain for this whole idea.
41:47 --> 41:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He is then called, Kelovin and Boris called to speak with Prince Duden, who was just arrived from Kazadum.
41:54 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And at first, he says no, the princess to come back later.
41:57 --> 42:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But when Anah thought it offers to speak with him instead, Kelovin and Boris says no, he will go himself.
42:04 --> 42:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's not completely lost at this point.
42:07 --> 42:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Not at this point, no.
42:09 --> 42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder if this is jealousy of his own position because he doesn't want to be usurped by Anotar or if there's some suspicion in there.
42:24 --> 42:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, maybe a little bit of Colombe, a little bit of Colombe.
42:26 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I would say.
42:30 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is one of those scenes that led me to believe that there is a skill that Kalibremor has that Anantar doesn't, because if he had this skill, would he be spending this much time and energy?
42:44 --> 42:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't think so.
42:45 --> 42:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Being thwarted in one of the most important pieces of his grand scheme.
42:50 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so.
42:52 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think so, either.
42:53 --> 43:00 [SPEAKER_00]: He wouldn't have needed to interact with if they're getting at all in the first place once he was, you know, solidify the end.
43:00 --> 43:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And access to the tools and stuff.
43:03 --> 43:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But he's no longer black lobby.
43:05 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_00]: No, he's no longer slimy sailor.
43:08 --> 43:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So, how does that conversation with Doran Gauss are at?
43:11 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_01]: While Durin expresses his fear that there is something wrong with the dwarven rings given the inexplicable changes in his father, and particularly his growing greed, which has never before been his way.
43:23 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But Kellerbrimble says this is impossible, because they're making the rings in the same way, even with the same tools.
43:29 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But Prince Durin puts his finger on the difference.
43:32 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He asks how much Kellerbrimble actually knows about Anna Tar.
43:37 --> 43:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Princeton is not stupid, is he?
43:40 --> 43:43 [SPEAKER_00]: No, and it's too bad that nobody asked this question until now.
43:44 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
43:45 --> 43:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
43:46 --> 43:48 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's coming from outside, isn't it?
43:48 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
43:49 --> 43:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And from a different perspective, obviously from different experiences from what was going on with the three.
43:57 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and Anatar has spent a lot of time buttering up color brimble and so color brimble will view Anatar in a different way.
44:05 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It also when he first met Anatar, you know, coming out like some kind of Glowy Christ figure.
44:12 --> 44:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly that.
44:14 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the musical accompaniment.
44:15 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
44:16 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But that also will have made him view Anatar in a different way.
44:22 --> 44:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Prince Durin wasn't there.
44:24 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't see that.
44:26 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_01]: He comes in, as you say, from outside.
44:28 --> 44:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And he sees this kind of dynamic between Calibrembore and Anatar.
44:34 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And he is, I think, naturally suspicious of what he sees.
44:38 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows Calibrembore.
44:40 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_01]: He does not know this Anatar.
44:41 --> 44:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:42 --> 44:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:42 --> 44:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And as he easily identifies, this is the only variable.
44:47 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
44:48 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_00]: According to Kelo Brimborn, now, of course, we know that there was another little variable going on there.
44:55 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to go back to meridanias vision because it feels like this was an aspect of Sauron that just kind of appeared to her to stop her from putting all of that me thrill into the rings.
45:10 --> 45:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I agree that it was, to my mind clearly a vision of Sauron, but I couldn't figure out why he was showing up all of a sudden like that, or if he was hanging around there the whole time, but the fact that he wanted to not waste the material, I think, in his eyes.
45:25 --> 45:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he also wouldn't want the material to be used to make the rings less likely to corrupt the wearer.
45:34 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly the opposite of what he wants.
45:36 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent point, yes, yes indeed.
45:39 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So Anatar expresses admiration of Miradaniya, saying, it is difficult for those who have seen the unseen world to return to the realm of the living.
45:48 --> 45:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And he tells her, oh, gosh, such a lie.
45:51 --> 46:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He tells her that what she saw was the shadow of Lord Calibrembor, who has been ravaged by the amount of her, is your turn for a sardonic hair, who has been ravaged by the amount of energy he has put into the making of the three and the seven, and encourages her to say nothing of this to him.
46:09 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_01]: direct.
46:10 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, oh, don't say anything.
46:12 --> 46:13 [SPEAKER_00]: No, of course not.
46:13 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, secrets are create an environment in which lies will thrive.
46:21 --> 46:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
46:22 --> 46:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But he then complements her hair.
46:24 --> 46:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I got the extreme egg enduring this scene.
46:28 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say such an egg.
46:29 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
46:31 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says that her hair and she both remind him of the Lady Galagriel.
46:39 --> 46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
46:40 --> 46:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and if he had said you you'd be even prettier if you smiled.
46:44 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I was gonna Oh, man, the hell is that same feeling?
46:47 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
46:47 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
46:47 --> 46:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
46:48 --> 46:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It is totally giving me the egg.
46:49 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I mean, okay.
46:50 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It helps that we know who he is.
47:00 --> 47:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it still felt slimy, not charming at all.
47:05 --> 47:08 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, insinuating, grooming, all of those.
47:09 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_00]: All of that, yes, wow, wow, yeah.
47:12 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was also interesting that whereas Modania speaks to Anatae and Sindarin, Anatae speaks to her in English.
47:19 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
47:20 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, why?
47:21 --> 47:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Why does he not speak to her in Sindarin?
47:23 --> 47:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think?
47:25 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm wondering if it's something about accent.
47:29 --> 47:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
47:31 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, aside from, you know, unlethalter is not exactly going to be happy with using sin-dut at any way.
47:41 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's getting too close to Elvis?
47:44 --> 47:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
47:45 --> 47:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I just, my first thought was, as I say, that he feared it might reveal himself in some fashion.
47:53 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
47:54 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
47:55 --> 47:56 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a speculation, that works.
47:57 --> 47:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that works.
47:58 --> 48:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be a good reason not to speak to her in Sendarin, because maybe his accent would give him away as it not being quite right.
48:06 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:07 --> 48:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It not sounding quite right.
48:08 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after all, we know that one of the things that Sauron does is develop the black speech.
48:14 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
48:15 --> 48:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it would give him a way as not having the right way of speaking Sondar and maybe.
48:26 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I did, Calibre Mortel, his elven Smiths, that Annapar is an ambassador from the Valor.
48:36 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that happening.
48:37 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't either, and I'm warning you if he ever did.
48:41 --> 48:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to, from the way, at least that Birghani is interacting with him, trusting him over Kele Brimboar, I think one could make a case for yes he had, but I really don't know.
48:53 --> 48:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know either, but if anybody does, please feel free to write in Antellus because I can't remember.
49:00 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Speculations welcome.
49:02 --> 49:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, but it does make sense what you just said that he would have told them because it would also help to explain why he's working so closely with Anadar.
49:13 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And why he, of course, they might not know that he's just obeying his king's orders.
49:18 --> 49:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But why starting up again after all and you know, did none of the Smiths ask It'll how much do you know about this and a thought of person?
49:28 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_00]: if Calibremore hasn't told them something, that probably more likely to ask that question.
49:34 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe he did tell them something.
49:37 --> 49:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know something.
49:38 --> 49:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I can see it either way.
49:39 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think they would have to have told, because otherwise, you know, you are Lord Calibremore, the greatest crafter of the age, who is this dude and why are you giving him so much?
49:54 --> 49:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, airtime, if you will, yes.
49:57 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
49:58 --> 50:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Kellerbrimbo asks Anatar, if he had altered the process of making the rings in any way, but Anatar says no, we did.
50:11 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And he blames the changes in the dwarven rings on Kellerbrimbo's lying letter to his high king.
50:17 --> 50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's literally saying, well,
50:20 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You changed what went into the rings because you have been deceptive, and he insists, despite all of this, that the only thing to do is to carry on with the process and forge nine more rings.
50:33 --> 50:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to think there are no mirrors anywhere about and I'm not talking about sound on the vampire here.
50:38 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about, you know, look yourself from the mirror because you know, talking about deception, making it a worse product, et cetera.
50:48 --> 50:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, who is doing the most deception of all here?
50:52 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
50:53 --> 50:55 [SPEAKER_01]: This is some epic gas lighting.
50:55 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, indeed.
50:57 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, particularly when Anatars says that calibreable would not recognize he was being manipulated until the knife was at his throat.
51:04 --> 51:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, no lies detected there actually.
51:07 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a really manipulative none and that was a line for the audience Yes, I really have to think you know, yes, it's just to ratchet up the oh All factor.
51:20 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, indeed Okay, I think we're heading back to Nomenal or yes, we are into one of my favorite rituals of the entire series so far
51:34 --> 51:44 [SPEAKER_00]: In a temple to Niana, a priest encourages those who have gathered to help bring peace to the souls of their loved ones who have passed on by letting candles and floating them on the water.
51:45 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Cameron interrupts at the head of a detachment of troops, claiming that the sanctuary has been condemned by the king because it is in the way of the new aqueduct, and that the king senses apologies.
52:05 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_00]: an old worshiper insists that at the statue of the Enna is not stored, the souls for whom she weeps will be lost.
52:13 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Kemen drops the statue while pretending to hand it to the old man, and Elendil finally loses it and socks him on the jaw.
52:21 --> 52:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Kemen calls for two soldiers to hold Elendil so that he can return the favor, because he need that, he sure would.
52:35 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin responds by trying to drown him, but the Laundail manages to acquire Kevin's sword overcome him and break his shoulder.
52:43 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Before he can kill Kevin, a Lendil orders him to stop.
52:49 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_00]: The Lendil follows the order and is stabbed in the back by Kevin, who stops to wash his sword in the sacred pool, and tells the guards to inform the jailer that Lendil started the uprising.
53:02 --> 53:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how I said a few minutes ago that there were times when I feel sorry for Kevin this is not one of those No, I'm not clear.
53:09 --> 53:21 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I do not feel any pity for him even though I went to when his shoulder was broken because I've been dealing with shoulder issues It over the past winter and while so I know how excruciating those awkward.
53:21 --> 53:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but if we act here is one of a bully and a coward
53:25 --> 53:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
53:26 --> 53:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Unquestionably, this is exactly how he's being coded.
53:29 --> 53:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if his father's words were in the back of his mind.
53:33 --> 53:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see how you succeeded the task I'm about to set you.
53:36 --> 53:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this probably was the task.
53:39 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this probably was the task, but what a way to go about it.
53:43 --> 53:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you have to be that cruel dropping the start to one pretending to hand it to the old
53:54 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I also think it's in line with what Fatta's on was saying about the Valar taunting, Numinorians, by putting Tolera Sair within sight, but not within reach.
54:10 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, again, he is came in this responding by saying, I'm not going to be taunted by you, people smash.
54:21 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the fact that he wants two soldiers to hold a lendial for him so that he can punch him, cowardly, weasily rubbish behavior, and then he stabs the lendial in the back.
54:36 --> 54:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how much more of a metaphor do we need?
54:38 --> 54:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no more metaphor is needed.
54:41 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah, absolutely heartbreaking.
54:44 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he washes his sword in the sacred pool.
54:49 --> 55:12 [SPEAKER_00]: that's just absolutely did me in because this beautiful beautiful ritual in heart breaking the beautiful actions of the setting, the gestures, these this same ritual is done by people of many cultures over many periods of time, letting a candle and setting it afloat.
55:14 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is how we deal with grief.
55:16 --> 55:28 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what we need to deal with grief, the ritual actions that give us a container to say in the face of this thing, that I cannot change, there is something I can do.
55:29 --> 55:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it isn't going to bring about change, it's still to some degree feels healing for me.
55:36 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.
55:38 --> 55:39 [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time,
55:41 --> 55:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to ask the question why don't need to, but I feel it is called for, despite this heartbreakingly beautiful ceremony setting, we're told that this is the oldest shrine in Numanor.
55:54 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So the first Vala that they built a shrine to was Nianna and I think there's a lot to contemplate there because all humans share grief.
56:07 --> 56:17 [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of our universal experiences but it could also be seen as a falling away by the new nodions from their former practices.
56:18 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_00]: right because this ritual that we're seeing here is very unlike the original rituals that we hear about originally no spoken rituals, no statues to any deities and no mentioned of morning rights in any of the descriptions of early and human art, which I find particularly striking because they did still construct tunes.
56:42 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's going all the way back to the very first, you know,
56:47 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_00]: thought elbows died.
56:49 --> 56:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
56:50 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_00]: But we aren't told anything about any sort of a ritual form around this.
56:55 --> 57:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So perhaps that's why Nianna was the first because they really felt this human need to have this comfort.
57:03 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:05 --> 57:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to speak from moment about the priest.
57:08 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
57:10 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Why is he talking about green countries and swift sunrises?
57:14 --> 57:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That seems odd to me.
57:15 --> 57:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the whole point of Numenor's fall is that they were jealous that they could not go to the land of the ever-living, right?
57:25 --> 57:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels to me that a major cultural message here for the show runners is that Numenor's fall
57:33 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_01]: than to fear of death.
57:35 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And not 100% on board with that.
57:40 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've only seen this alluded to once thus far with pharaohs on standing over the open coffin of Tar Palantia.
57:48 --> 57:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And we certainly saw and heard enough resentment of elves in season one.
57:52 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But that seemed to be due to their greater skills, their beauty, their strength, and not so much about their serial longevity.
58:00 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think they've really forwarded that very much.
58:05 --> 58:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
58:07 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's a shame, actually, because for me, it's much, much more important than health envy is the whole fear of death.
58:16 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course it is.
58:17 --> 58:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think because time compression, because character focus, because
58:23 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you compress 2000 years of history into a very short period?
58:27 --> 58:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to be that they are going to focus strictly on phatosons journey, if you will, is falling away, that the prejudice against elves was a useful tool for him when he was trying to build up his own political hegemony and so on.
58:47 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Because people who feel like they're having a hard time in their lives for whatever reasons,
58:52 --> 58:58 [SPEAKER_00]: are unfortunately more inclined to point to some other group and say it's their fault.
58:58 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense.
59:00 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, they got a big short cuts haven't laid for the viewers.
59:03 --> 59:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We will they do and we see this pattern over and over.
59:07 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So I see it as much as a political tool of phadras on.
59:12 --> 59:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But there has to have been some sort of grounds, well, but what I would love to hear you talk about is the ritual itself that's going on before it is horribly disturbed.
59:25 --> 59:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, again, the comfort of the priest.
59:29 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, wherever he got the words from, one of the rings, excuse me.
59:37 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_00]: He knows that this is his function.
59:39 --> 59:41 [SPEAKER_00]: He is there to comfort his people.
59:42 --> 59:42 [SPEAKER_00]: The older,
59:44 --> 59:51 [SPEAKER_00]: person who is feeling this particular personal call to tend this smaller shrine with all the lit candles.
59:51 --> 01:00:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And if very firm and his belief that she has to continue to exist in order for the souls who are gone to find their way to what?
01:00:04 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we don't really know.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's it's a familiar ritual.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:11 [SPEAKER_00]: It has been in your content and yet in terms of
01:00:15 --> 01:00:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It can be a little confusing.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to wonder, was this the first shrine built in Numa-Node because the faithful were feeling uneasy about their falling away from their former forms of giving respect to Mon-way?
01:00:30 --> 01:00:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Could be.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And thus, calling upon the valiant of comfort to help them.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the first cloud in the horizon, and you say, I don't know, let me go and, you know, offer this up to.
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 [SPEAKER_00]: the one who is the Comforter.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the ritual itself feels almost church-like, doesn't it?
01:00:51 --> 01:00:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, there's a fair bit, I think, of Christian overlay here.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And given the background of pain and decay, that's not surprising.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: You have a priest leading a congregation where you have stained glass at the top of the back wall with the statue of Nielano beneath it, which is kind of reminiscent of our lady of sorrows.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Very reminiscent since that's in essence, which she is, both in the series but what talking made of her over time.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mentioned the lit candles, reminding people that
01:01:27 --> 01:01:32 [SPEAKER_00]: remembrance of their deceased and, you know, honoring their grief, many cultures around the world to this.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_00]: The common response in Inquenia is also, I think, very reminiscent of Christian Sermon, is going way, way, way, way back.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And this, of course, was also the original language of Numenor,
01:01:47 --> 01:01:50 [SPEAKER_00]: and is still used in ceremonies by the faithful.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's another link to this past which for many people is so distant that they really can't remember much about how it was back then.
01:01:57 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is a trying to reach back to something that has not been there for a long time.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean that the vile out of themselves, but the,
01:02:07 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_00]: the way in which they were approaching them.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:15 [SPEAKER_00]: There's lovely music of choirs, a company for your instruments.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_00]: What I really focused in on this feeling is the shell patterns everywhere.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They're large reflectors for the candles, letting the room, they're the holders of the candles that are being filtered on the water.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, the shell was placed on the tomb of Pauge Palantir for remembrance.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:40 [SPEAKER_00]: this is a very important symbol for them.
01:02:41 --> 01:02:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when the fighting does break out, the priest shout said, this is a holy place.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It is a sanctuary and there should be no violence there.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Which does call back to the mountain parner, doesn't it?
01:02:53 --> 01:02:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes it does.
01:02:55 --> 01:03:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It does, but it also does feel like there was quite a heavy Christian overlay on some of this.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think so, because again, due to Christian religions are what pain and the care most for me with, and perhaps they figured most of their audience will be as well, which I don't think is necessarily true, but it's it's an understandable, shorthand perhaps to convey, okay, now we're in a sacred space because ABCD
01:03:24 --> 01:03:26 [SPEAKER_00]: and they're kind of drawing from that.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, it's much more visually attractive and quote unquote theatrical than a whole bunch of people standing in silence on this large top flat top hill and then leaving in silence and nothing said nothing done.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can see why they might have wanted to be a little more visual and auditory.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:03:49 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going back to the devils.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:58 [SPEAKER_01]: because back from his visit to Euregion, Dorin begs his father to stop using the rings.
01:03:58 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, King Dorin tells his son how proud he is of him for having had the wisdom and insight to partner with the elves, and he reinstates him as Prince Dorin.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Deesa, on the other hand, is distressed when Dorin tells that the king would not listen, and Dorin swears to her that he will not use one of the dwarven rings.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So my question to you, Marilyn, is do you think there are any differences in dual culture between swearing and promising?
01:04:27 --> 01:04:38 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a question that has exercised my mind a lot in a whole lot of talking, because we have swearing, we have promising, and we have oaths.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And my reading of it is oaths are the most potent because they are made to someone or something.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52 [SPEAKER_00]: larger, higher, with more power.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you break an oath, well, just ask the sons of Fanor.
01:04:58 --> 01:04:59 [SPEAKER_00]: What that's all about.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And oaths generally do not have very good favor throughout Middle Earth, as far as we can tell, in all three ages.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Swaring and promising, promising to meet
01:05:15 --> 01:05:19 [SPEAKER_00]: This was far too serious for just a promise, a swearing.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:22 [SPEAKER_00]: She keeps saying, swear to me, swear to me.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And he says, I swear it.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, interesting that they don't swear upon Alale, they probably don't have that kind of a relationship with him in a sense.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But still, the emphasis and perhaps it's also the language,
01:05:39 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_00]: promise sounds perhaps more contemporary we're swearing might sound like it came from long ago and far away and it has that kind of sense.
01:05:48 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to have somebody who's deep into phylogy, right in and tell us the origins of both of those words and was one French and England and other English and so forth and maybe there's some interesting factoids to be uncovered there.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So listeners, right in, if you have that knowledge.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure that promise comes from the French.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so too, and swear definitely sounds Anglo-Saxon to me, so that could be another reason why Tolkien preferred swearing over promising.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, but I do not claim much knowledge in that area, and I love to hear from people.
01:06:23 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely do not claim to be an expert in it, so yes, please, right in.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, in Aragion, Kele Brimble plays bad cop to Anatars' good cop, claiming that the Smiths must not have followed his instructions to the letter, and that now he will participate with them in the making of the nine in order to redeem the seven relying on the strength of the three.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to me it just sounds like he's tying himself in worse and worse, not split, whatever.
01:06:51 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Anatars hints that Kele Brimble's words may seem unreasonable, but he manages to reassure
01:06:57 --> 01:07:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Calabrimbo retires to his office where he realizes that his hands are trembling and that he is deeply distressed.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So he should be.
01:07:07 --> 01:07:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I wonder if he's distressed for the reasons that we think he should be distressed for the world.
01:07:13 --> 01:07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, indeed.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:17 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of numbers symbolism isn't there?
01:07:17 --> 01:07:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously these are Tolkien's rings or the numbers that he chose, but there's a lot of symbolism with these numbers.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, 9731.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the prime number sequence?
01:07:28 --> 01:07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't know.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We have top five, which is a prime.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Five doesn't get a look in because I got associated, I think, with which craft and the pentacole and so forth.
01:07:37 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Five points are the exact sense.
01:07:39 --> 01:07:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:07:39 --> 01:07:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But one, of course, is the unity, which is kind of ironic.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:46 [SPEAKER_00]: When we know what the one ring is going to be.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in the darkness bind them all together.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:57 [SPEAKER_00]: three in the Christian tradition being vegetarian, but also I think significant in other religious traditions.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Seven, I think that might have been a Babylonian number.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And anyway, we inherited seven days of the week from whoever it was.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And then nine, of course, is three threes.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So you, you are perfecting.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they even mentioned this in this one or other discussion about how many
01:08:19 --> 01:08:25 [SPEAKER_00]: that the three threes will be the perfect combination from the original beginning.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:34 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, if there are those of you out there specializing in numerology, please write in and tell us yes, there's some things.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I would love to hear about that.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So our final synopsis for the day, Elland tells Gilgallard that Galadriel was right,
01:08:47 --> 01:08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: No, oh, well done, El Rond, yes, how gay, thank you very much.
01:08:54 --> 01:08:58 [SPEAKER_00]: The Orcs are marching on Evragion, and only an army from Gilgallod can save the city.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: He holds out Galadriel's ring as proof.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But Gilgallod says they must focus on Soron as the greater threat than Adar.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Gilgallod.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Gilgallod.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, the orcs have reached the outskirts of O'Reilly on and carrying along a cage to allow the deal with them, they attempt to get a rise out of her, who instead manages to exit her cage and stand her ground, no talking about no they hurt the bay.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:39 [SPEAKER_00]: At all returns, allowing her to get her arm around his neck and a sharp object by his throat, but she stays her hand when he tells her that he brought her here to discuss
01:09:44 --> 01:09:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And there we leave that, and there we leave that.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have one piece of feedback for today.
01:09:52 --> 01:09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lovely piece from Doov-71.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it came to us via the Rings and Rituals channel on Blurhoun's Discord.
01:10:04 --> 01:10:19 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, a lovely preview episode and so looking forward to using two of the pod, brings in rituals as definitely a Sunday listen on the dog walk, surrounded by the woods, rolling hills, and now misty mountains of Wales.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Lovely.
01:10:21 --> 01:10:23 [SPEAKER_00]: A great pod to settle in and learn something new.
01:10:25 --> 01:10:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You knew I had to share this with you because nifty mountains of whales is a root-to-do Yeah, that's that's Sarah's crib.
01:10:34 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where she lives.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a crib.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, to use a variety of languages here So yes, I'm down in the hood of every
01:10:52 --> 01:10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: but that was lovely.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for sending that in.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We always appreciate when people send in their feedback to us and it's nice to know we're doing something right.
01:10:59 --> 01:11:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes indeed.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, you know, just reading that mood, you know, if I'm having any sort of anxiety, whatever is going on, I just go, ah, yes, a lovely walk in the misty rush, what's delightful.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds good to me.
01:11:17 --> 01:11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's it for this episode.
01:11:18 --> 01:11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Write in and let us know what you think any suggestions you might have for rituals we can look at and anything else you'd like to share with us.
01:11:25 --> 01:11:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And we welcome your feedback at rings and rituals at the lorehounds.com or on the lorehounds discord server where we have a special channel set up just for rings and rituals.
01:11:37 --> 01:11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: On the lower hands website, there's also a contact form and a voicemail feature, which apparently you can just record a voicemail on your phone and send it off and it will have a good sound quality and we'll hear it.
01:11:50 --> 01:11:53 [SPEAKER_00]: For that, just look for the contact us link at the bottom of the page.
01:11:55 --> 01:12:01 [SPEAKER_00]: We're aiming to publish weekly episodes between now and November 11th, but there may also be a special episode or two.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: If you follow any of the Lawrence podcasts, you should hear our ads and I'll let you know when the next episode is approaching.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, be sure to check out the other podcast supported by the Barovian Broadcasting Network.
01:12:13 --> 01:12:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Our affiliate podcasts such as brings and rituals and of course, John, David, and Alicia on the Main Law Hounds podcast and links for all of these are also in the link tree in the show notes.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Our deep gratitude and thanks to our recording engineer and editor, Bob, to David and John our producers and to John for arranging our theme music, as well as all those who support us along the way.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you would like to support us at the podcast, find us on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the law hounds.
01:12:45 --> 01:12:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Subscribe as we'll get access to ad-free versions as well as many other benefits.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Until next time then, remember, Eldron asks, what is beauty if it is born of evil?
01:12:57 --> 01:13:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And kiddoan replies, no less beautiful.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Palva, farewell for now.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Nack can mean until we meet again.