In the final episode of season two of Rings and Rituals, Marilyn and Sara revel in having the two finest scenes of the entire series appear in the final episode, and lament what might have been with Adar. They try to untangle a few lore threads and manage to pull in Mediterranean bells, Wagnerian characters, summoning rituals (not the goetia sort!), standing in awe of what may be seen by the eyes of death, sharing packing rituals, and discussing Dutch camera angles. Marilyn grieves with Elrond over lost manuscripts, describes a royal healing ritual from primary world history, and offers a new theory about Tom Bombadil‘s song. Sara is quite clear on her thoughts for season three, they both delight in a flurry of messages from enthusiastic listeners and, looking ahead to season three, pose (in song!) the ancient question: “ How do you solve a problem like a Balrog?
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00:13 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, and welcome back to Rings and Ritual Season 2, where we will be examining the 8th and final episode of Season 2 of Pain and McKay's series into power, called Dune to Die.
00:25 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_01]: In preparation for the opening of Season 3.
00:27 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, next week!
00:31 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Merrill, and I bring in a ribbon doll.
00:33 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry that she'll made Narohan, and whether you listen to all of our episodes from Season 1, or this is the first time you've ever heard of us, we're delighted you're here.
00:41 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And if this is your first time, well, it's better late than ever.
00:44 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
00:45 --> 00:53 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be following our pattern from Season 1 by reviewing what we mean by ritual, and then applying those concepts to the different examples of ritual that we find in the series.
00:54 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And from this, we'll discuss how pain and decay depicted the cultures that they were adapting to their series.
01:01 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_01]: You get in touch with us even though this is the last episode we'd still love to hear your thoughts.
01:05 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: You can email us at rings and rituals at TheLoreHounds.com, or you can join our Rings and Rituals channel on TheLoreHounds Discord.
01:14 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll include all that information in the show notes.
01:18 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We also want to say that we are a proud affiliate of the Laura Hound's Barovian Broadcasting Network, where you will find all sorts of interesting and entertaining podcasts on TV, film, books, video games, and other stories.
01:33 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So as we said, we will be identifying any rituals that we see in the episode and discussing them from the perspective of the intention, the outcome, the musical background, and what the ritual tells us about the culture
01:48 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_01]: and when we may come up with some other discussion points along the way.
01:53 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But before that, we'll have a quick break, and when we come back, we'll bring you the meat or the tofu for our vegan and vegetarian listeners without the quail sauce.
02:13 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back.
02:14 --> 02:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into it, Sara, how do you feel?
02:18 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_01]: We're finished with season two.
02:20 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to have gone pretty quickly, actually.
02:23 --> 02:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what we found more to talk about than I thought we might do at first viewing?
02:29 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought so too.
02:30 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The first couple of episodes I was listening to I thought, oh well, this will go through fast.
02:34 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly we both just began expanding our lenses.
02:38 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you say, there was a lot there.
02:41 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, though.
02:42 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pleased with that because that for 10
02:47 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope it does too, I mean, I can't imagine they're going to change the way in which they have been doing things and then suddenly there will be zero rituals to talk about for the next three seasons, which would be a bit of a shame for our podcast.
03:01 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it wouldn't indeed, however, even if they do drop back on the ritual count, I'm sure we can find things to talk of that.
03:09 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure we can.
03:11 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: In any case, the listeners who have communicated with us seem to like what we're doing.
03:15 --> 03:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll find that case.
03:17 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so long as they're happy, one way or the other.
03:22 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So as people may remember, well, our main focus is on ritual, as we said,
03:32 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: This, of course, means we are doing follow-ups boilers from both seasons throughout these episodes.
03:38 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And if that isn't what you want, then go back and binge the entirety of seasons 1 and 2, which you're probably doing anyway if you're planning on watching season 3.
03:45 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And then come back and join us.
03:49 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So before we get into this final episode, I wanted to make notice something back in season 2 episode 6.
03:56 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Which only a reason to occur to me.
03:59 --> 04:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems that there were many visuals in Elendil's trial before Fattoson that were reminiscent of the sort of thing that we saw with the trial of Jesus of Nazareth before Fattoson by the Roman consul.
04:13 --> 04:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And there was Elendil in the center of this large open space with bruised face and hands bound and dressed in rags.
04:20 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Fattoson with his crownes and his association with Eagles.
04:24 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: which were, of course, a civil war room.
04:27 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, we get a quick shot of three women in the corner who are mourning and lentils coming fade to sort of thinking together to one another.
04:36 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that resonate with you in any way, Sarah?
04:39 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really glad you pointed it out, Marilyn, because I, for whatever reason, I tend to miss a lot of Christian imagery.
04:49 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't really jump out at me, but I'm always pleased when somebody points out things like that that I have missed.
04:57 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And having listened to that and thought back over that scene, I can see exactly where you're going with it.
05:03 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, I can see what the showrunners were doing with it as well because I think that it just seems very deliberate don't you think?
05:12 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have to think so given their religious backgrounds of the showeners themselves, but also the nature of the story.
05:21 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, it took me three watches before I picked up on it, so I don't think you need to worry about missing things like that because we all focus on different things at different times, but I just suddenly had these images of illustrations from a childhood Bible kind of a thing for my own youth that were coming in there and I thought, oh, yeah.
05:46 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, well, this isn't that interesting.
05:50 --> 05:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought I would bring it up.
05:53 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, that's really great.
05:54 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always good to find another layer and a layer that I had definitely missed.
06:00 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully that'll bring something new to the thoughts of other people too.
06:04 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I hope so.
06:05 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It also reinforces to me that what you see in any visual imagery
06:17 --> 06:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not good, bad, or indifferent.
06:19 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just what you see because of your own background.
06:22 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's always useful to keep that in mind, particularly with the series like this, which definitely has its complexities, shall we say.
06:32 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good way of putting it, Marilyn.
06:34 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
06:35 --> 06:39 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, would you like to open us up the first synopsis?
06:39 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
06:41 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So, we begin with King Durin, who is about to break through into the Barrogs Chamber, which does not sound like a good idea.
06:48 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: He's confronted by his son, who realizes that he is not strong enough to raise an axe against his father.
06:55 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Nonetheless, the prince begs him not to open a hole into the cabin.
06:59 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_00]: The king responds that Dwarves should never beg, and he breaks through the final barrier.
07:05 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Inside they find untold veins of Mithril and the King claims that it is the dynasty of Doran.
07:13 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_00]: The Prince is Julie impressed, but he reminds the King that it was he who told his son that it was never there, mountain.
07:19 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: The King thinks that with the ring it could be, but their discussion is interrupted by a fiery glow and a steady growl.
07:29 --> 07:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder what that might be.
07:33 --> 07:38 [SPEAKER_00]: When the shock of seeing his son thrown back by the sword of the Balrog, the king returns to his senses.
07:39 --> 07:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He takes off the ring and tells his son that he never let him win.
07:44 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It was always the prince getting stronger.
07:47 --> 07:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Calling his son King Doran, the elder Doran hefts his acts and leaps to attack the Balrog, who manages to close the entrance to the Mithril vein.
07:57 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_00]: The prince, now King Dorin, by his father's acclamation, is held back from running to his father's aid by Disa and Navi and another dwarf, and they all watch in horror.
08:09 --> 08:11 [SPEAKER_00]: This was a heck of a scene, Marilyn.
08:11 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to say, I'm choking up just like you guessed correctly again, because it's... Ah, the depth of the fields, the poignancy, the stress.
08:26 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, unquestionably, unquestionably, and my first observation has its pretty bold to start your final episode with probably the most perfect scene of the entire season.
08:38 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is just, yeah, I really, it's hard to, to not stumble into a length of hyperbolic praises, but um, yeah.
08:51 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, it's also interesting to note that by the end of this episode, we will have seen each of the leaders of all the great realms tested in one way or another.
09:01 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: true.
09:02 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have Doran by the Bellrog, Muriel by the Seamanster, that was the previous episode, of course.
09:08 --> 09:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That is on by his own greed into using the Palantir.
09:12 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Elendo by his loyalty and Gil Gallad in his strength of arms.
09:16 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yep.
09:18 --> 09:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's another thing that is occurred to me,
09:24 --> 09:30 [SPEAKER_00]: throughout season 1 and season 2 has been kind of father son dynamics.
09:31 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we see here in this scene, this great scene, a culmination of one particular thread of that dynamic.
09:41 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_00]: The father son confrontation, it has been throughout most of season 1 and season 2 because let's
09:50 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: the elder and during the younger have not exactly rubbed together very well until this point, and then suddenly, with this moment and with King Dorian suddenly coming to his senses, now he reaches out to his son and tells him something vitally important.
10:11 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, unquestionably, and something that he will need to hold close in the challenges to come.
10:19 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine the show runners rubbing their hands and anticipate the Tory glee when season 8 was about, I mean, at the so date was about to drop at last.
10:31 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, that will this scene, we knew there was going to be a confrontation with the Balrog.
10:36 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It was sooner or later, we knew it was coming and for me it didn't disappoint.
10:43 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: No, not Middle East, and to be honest, these two father and son are so similar, how could they not clash?
10:53 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that was probably their major point, wasn't it, their major problem was the fact that they were just too similar.
10:59 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And Disa is wise enough to see that because she loves both of them.
11:03 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, at one point she says, I love him more than my own fathers.
11:13 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that says something about her father and we could go down that road.
11:19 --> 11:23 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Disa is a wise dwarf.
11:23 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: She knows what's what?
11:25 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.
11:27 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
11:29 --> 11:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, the stranger finds the stored village seemingly abandoned in the moonlight.
11:36 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The dark wizard enters, greeting him as an old friend, saying that he is
11:42 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: because he, the stranger, was the one who convinced the Dark Wizard to join with three other Eastarrie to leave the West and try to defeat Sauron.
11:53 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: The stranger is wary, even with the author of being told his name is passed and the location of his staff.
12:02 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead he asks after Norian Poppy, and is told that the Dark Wizard has been keeping in safe.
12:08 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the desert people appears with a knife blade at the halflings' throats.
12:14 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Brank, then, enters saying that the two of them will be killed if the dark wizard does not keep his promises, and objects to the epithet of low people, saying that they are kings.
12:28 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, one of them ends up dead in the other's fleet.
12:32 --> 12:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The good names him as the dark wizard, and while he rejects the name, saying it was misled upon him by humans, it is clear that none of the halflings trust him.
12:44 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The stranger refuses to become one of Sauron's successors, and in deflecting the rock fall that the outraged wizard has released upon the store village, he sees the constellation that he has been following for so long revealed it last, directly overhead.
13:01 --> 13:05 [SPEAKER_00]: some fairly tangled law threads going on in this particular scene don't you think?
13:06 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's been a lot of objection to what will happen at the end of this episode, so I'm going to spoil it anyway to the stranger being Gandalf.
13:17 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And some people point to what we read in the
13:24 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: appendices in order to ring some people object to other things, but I was among the group that really, really wanted this to be a blue wizard.
13:34 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's still hope that the Dark Wizard is one of the blue wizards.
13:38 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think that's actually quite likely.
13:41 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well we are told that
13:43 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_01]: there's, well, again, Tolkien tells us two different things.
13:46 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, it's Tolkien.
13:48 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's Tolkien and it's more, more claims tend to, to get a bit weak as we really start to dig more deeply.
13:55 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So, perhaps what they're doing is the dark wizard is one of the blues and, um, Gaddolf has come along to try and persuade him to a more sensible path.
14:07 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But as far as the chronology
14:10 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: At the end of his life, Tolkien had a lot of newsings about a lot of things, and many of them are printed by Christopher Tolkien, a blessed memory, in one or more of the volumes of the history of Middle-earth.
14:22 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that Tolkien used about was he thought, well, you know, I think the wizards had to have come over sooner.
14:31 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_01]: As seen sometime during the second age,
14:34 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
14:35 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there you are.
14:38 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It could be that this is what the show rotors were going with.
14:41 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think so.
14:42 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:43 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, once you agree and allow that the wizards are there early.
14:50 --> 14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And that this is Gandalf, which let's face it, we kind of knew from the off, right?
14:57 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they did much the same thing with Gandalf as they did with Sauron slash Albrend.
15:04 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:05 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But that makes the idea then that this is one of the blue wizards.
15:11 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_00]: That kind of works.
15:13 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: If we acknowledge that the wizards are there early, then the fact that this is or the possibility that this is a blue wizard actually works with the way in which the showrunners are using the lore in their own way.
15:27 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we know that the two blue was at Wend East.
15:31 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_00]: We also know, if you read the chapter, the story from unfinished tales, that they then became involved in cults.
15:42 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and strange things, and that really fits with the things that we have seen so far with all the very odd people that this dark wizard is hanging around with, but also their use of magic and the kind of magic that is definitely power over.
16:05 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So this all kind of, they are at least being internally consistent, is what I'm trying to say.
16:11 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Once they've decided that they're going to have wizards, they're now being consistent with how they're using them.
16:16 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And so long as this definitely does turn out to be a blue wizard and not, please no, sorry man.
16:23 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no.
16:24 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that wouldn't work at all.
16:26 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It just wouldn't.
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't believe they would make that level of doofus mistake.
16:31 --> 16:32 [SPEAKER_00]: If it's a blue wizard, it works.
16:33 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so too, and I think this is another example of the Art of Adaptation, when you make a change, you make it consistently and not just out of pure fancy, but because you have a whole through line, yes, that you have conceived in your own mind, and all right, call it or what if you like, but still, it's an important
16:59 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_01]: thing to remember that they are retelling the story.
17:04 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
17:05 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:05 --> 17:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And as I'll say towards the end, I'll say I hear now too.
17:09 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the completely invented characters are have some of the best arcs and development of any in the story.
17:18 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think they did show owners have a definite skill.
17:23 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: in storytelling.
17:25 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm a degree.
17:26 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
17:27 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it seems to be showing here too.
17:30 --> 17:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:31 --> 17:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the rules of adaptation is that if you're going to change something, make sure you're changing it for a reason that you're doing it not just because, but you're doing it for a reason that makes sense with the narrative you are telling.
17:48 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And if they stick to that, then it won't be so bad.
17:52 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's when somebody comes in and doesn't adaptation and just
18:00 --> 18:05 [SPEAKER_00]: and the changes that they've made don't make sense and it doesn't hold a narrative together.
18:05 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking for example of the adaptation of Susan Cooper's book, The Dark Is Rising, which was called The Seeker.
18:15 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I have to think about it?
18:16 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, very, very briefly.
18:18 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the worst adaptations of anything I've ever seen in my life, ever.
18:23 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And I never want to see it again because it's so bad.
18:27 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But the problem with it is primarily that they changed a lot of things, but there was no really good reason for changing it.
18:35 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't create a narrative that held together.
18:39 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't make sense.
18:40 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, in my opinion, what makes a bad adaptation.
18:45 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't agree with you more, and I know, for some listeners, the image of smashing toys together might be coming to their head right now, that seems to be what the, what was in the mind of the people who made that, the film that need not be remembered.
19:06 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we say, sink into obscurity, as far as I'm concerned, and that will be just fine.
19:17 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, carrying on, Yardian rings the bells to some in the faithful to hear the proclamation from Thartazon, as the storm wind rises and shakes the branches of the white tree.
19:30 --> 19:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Thartazon claims he now knows how Muriel was able to be which the sea monster into allowing her to survive and be proclaimed queen.
19:39 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: She is declared to be in league with Thartazon, and all the faithful likewise.
19:45 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_01]: As soldiers began rounding up the leaders and the followers, Fadazon notices as Arian's lips out of side to door.
19:53 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The white petals of the tree begin to rain down on its courtyard and blow across the harbor.
20:00 --> 20:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Arian rushes to the old corridor where chaos isn't suing to warn her father that he has to flee at once.
20:07 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_01]: She threatens a curious guard standing outside.
20:10 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Arian deals a partment and then,
20:13 --> 20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Tells a new move along which he does.
20:16 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Then she goes in and finds up Elendil has already moved along and has heard away to Mirriil's chamber, insisting that she must let him take her away to the harbor so that they can sail together to Western us, where his son and Aurena and other faithful have already gathered.
20:33 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, Mirriil gives him the sword Narsil and orders him to reclaim his lordship and his destiny.
20:41 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Elendil modeling the proper behavior for his distant descendant out of going takes the store to his own.
20:48 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
20:48 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Why can't they give Elendil his own in our steel reveal moment?
20:52 --> 20:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is a time when I wish they had to use their imagination.
20:57 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And he had a sticking to a certain film, which I think everybody knows what I'm referring to at this point.
21:06 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
21:07 --> 21:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a shame.
21:08 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it could have been made more of.
21:10 --> 21:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That's official.
21:12 --> 21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I do too.
21:13 --> 21:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It mean it's fine to demonstrate a lineage.
21:16 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Those of us who would have recognized that didn't really need the visual reminder, whether or not you read the books or you saw the films, but all right.
21:26 --> 21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: That's that.
21:27 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I bought Quebec over.
21:30 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I also observed that the ringing of the bells to some in the congregation to a ritual is a very familiar procedure, although, of course, in this case, they weren't being sent into a ritual, unfortunately.
21:42 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But they looked very much like the cylindrical bells in the bell tower in the Mediterranean style.
21:48 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
21:48 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the kind of vibe that they want the new minorities to have.
21:53 --> 21:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say though the mechanism for ringing also looked highly new menorion, i.e.
21:59 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: very advanced because I have run bells.
22:02 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I rang a small bell in a small methodist church and I once had the privilege and delight of ringing great Peter in York, Mr. on my birthday.
22:11 --> 22:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, goodness.
22:11 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_00]: How wonderful.
22:12 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It was fantastic.
22:14 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I had.
22:14 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I changed as a minister guide and so when they found out my birthday was coming up this, oh, well, you have to ring that up.
22:21 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: really?
22:22 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I promise you, ropes were essential in this process.
22:26 --> 22:32 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no handy lever that you pushed down and they started ringing and you pushed up its advice for a certain, it stopped.
22:32 --> 22:34 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it doesn't work that way.
22:35 --> 22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So, all right, it looks good in any rate and I don't really see how they could have had a audience swinging on a belt rope.
22:43 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I think perhaps that's why they changed it because having a Aryan swinging on a bell rope, it kind of takes away from the significance of what she's doing rather than how she's doing it.
22:56 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if all she has to do is pull a lever, then it's about the fact that she's ringing the bells rather than oh look she's now swinging on the end of a rope.
23:06 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can see why they did it.
23:13 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, exactly, exactly.
23:16 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, there are strong Christian connections here.
23:20 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So other religions have other similar types of calls to the congregation for the Muslims.
23:26 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It is the call of the poison, a culture prayer, which is uttered five times a day, of course.
23:32 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And then for Jews, the show far rings out only for specific holy days, but it's most known for the high holy days.
23:42 --> 23:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, and much about the Hindu or Buddhist practices, or any other religions that might have similar practices, but any thoughts on this kind of imagery, so are?
23:53 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I like you.
23:55 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any knowledge about Hindu or Buddhist practices or any other religions, but communities have always had a way to call the community together.
24:07 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm.
24:09 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, we see this happening in various communities across the world of rings of power, right?
24:14 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: They just, they have ways of calling each other to come together as a community.
24:19 --> 24:26 [SPEAKER_00]: This is, yes, it's not a call to prayer or a call to service or a congregation or anything like that, but it is a call to community.
24:27 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that this is what makes it a ritual because if you wish to call together the community, this is what we do and this is how we do it.
24:37 --> 24:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And that means that everybody must recognize that call, know what it means, and know what to do about it.
24:44 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:44 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:45 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it could just as easily be a call to say, hey, there's an emergency, bring your bucket, sir.
24:50 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
24:50 --> 24:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Any anything along those lines?
24:52 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But I like your analysis of it is being a ritual in the sense of there a change has to happen, and so people have to come together to enact it.
25:03 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
25:03 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll have to know what it means ahead of time.
25:05 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, that's that's certainly how I read that moment.
25:11 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, shall I continue into the next scene?
25:14 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
25:15 --> 25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we are in the midst of battle as Orcs enter the city of a region and begin to sack it.
25:24 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel leads what else she's able to gather through her secret exit, as they emerge more Orcs surround them.
25:32 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But Galadriel bargains for their safe passage by offering nine rings in exchange.
25:39 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, yeah, we'll come back to that bit.
25:42 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, in a tower somewhere, Sauron torches Calibremble with arrows and tells him he will spare him the brutality of Orcs in a wall frenzy if he will reveal the location of the nine rings.
25:56 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Calibremble tells him that soon he will be on the shores of the morning, born by a wind that Sauron can never follow.
26:03 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's rather beautiful language that actually.
26:06 --> 26:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It is very beautiful.
26:07 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
26:09 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Sauron threatens to show Keller Brimble his mastery of the craft of keeping things alive for a very long time and Keller Brimble laughs.
26:16 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Saying that Sauron's only craft is a treachery so pure that it will betray the very hand that forges it.
26:22 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says something that really resonates here for me.
26:26 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
26:27 --> 26:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Hear me shadow of morgoth.
26:29 --> 26:32 [SPEAKER_00]: The rings of power shall destroy you.
26:32 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the end, I perceive that one alone shall prove your utter ruin.
26:39 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
26:40 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:41 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Saron is absolutely enraged by this, and he spears Calibremble and hoist his body up against a pillar, claiming that he alone is the master of the rings as their creator.
26:54 --> 27:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Calibremble responds that, nope, Saron is their prisoner, and Saron, lord of the rings.
27:03 --> 27:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Calibremble and dyes, and
27:07 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot in this scene, and by the way, this was also an extraordinary scene.
27:13 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Water scene, this was incredibly powerful.
27:16 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I actually did not watch it the very first time, because I knew it was going to be horrific in terms of visuals, and I just didn't need that imagery in my mind at the time.
27:29 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I did watch literally watch at this time, and I looked away a couple of times, but
27:37 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: exchange of language, the lines they were given, these two have been such an amazing pair throughout this season and they, you know, they, it's easy to see the Charles Edwards is a Shakespearean actor.
27:54 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_00]: very much so.
27:55 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the dynamic between the characters is compelling, but the chemistry between the two actors is what really made this work.
28:05 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Or boy did they make it work.
28:07 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It is so well done.
28:10 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a scene that we all knew as coming.
28:12 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_00]: If you know anything about the story of Calibre and Boy, you knew the scene was coming.
28:17 --> 28:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's how you get there.
28:20 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_00]: That is very important.
28:21 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:22 --> 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And let me also say Charlie Vickers is no slouch when it comes to acting.
28:26 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: No matter what it means.
28:28 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he is, you know, the two of them are bringing out the greatness in each other.
28:35 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
28:35 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
28:36 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
28:36 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_00]: They're elevated by each other's performances.
28:40 --> 28:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:40 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And which do you think Sauron was more,
28:46 --> 29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say hurt, not emotionally hurt, but stung by being called shadow of Murdoch, or being told that these creations will prove his ruin, or claiming that he is the prisoner of these rings.
29:06 --> 29:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
29:07 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I think yes and.
29:10 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the weeping was a fascinating choice because we weep for so many different reasons including out of sheer frustration and anger.
29:25 --> 29:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm, good point.
29:27 --> 29:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's no doubt in my mind that he is feeling those feels, as well as any other feelings.
29:35 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He is so frustrated at the way which Kelle Brimble continues to defy him, because how dare you?
29:47 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:47 --> 29:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:48 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you're a friend.
29:50 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:50 --> 29:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:51 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_00]: What he says while stabbing him with an arrow.
29:54 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:55 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so there's all of that, but also, it's, it's the, the way in which Caleb Brimble frames this ending as like a prophecy.
30:06 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, that the ritual of speeches is at the point of death.
30:12 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and we see that with it.
30:14 --> 30:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We see that in a number of places, don't we, in the legendarium?
30:18 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so do you think Kele Brimboar is seeing a literal vision of future events?
30:27 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it simply, I mean, it's difficult to say because I know that I can talk about
30:34 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_01]: seeing something, and I don't mean with my eyes, I don't even mean with the picture in my mind.
30:39 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I just mean more of a, a, a body of my soul.
30:42 --> 30:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, although that's usually more hearing from me than sight.
30:45 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But I wonder if part of Kelebrembo's language is his awareness of this similarity between the two of them.
30:58 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron has used Kelle Brimbor's desire to exceed his ancestor fanor, to deceive him, to tempt him, to lead him into doing things that will prove ruinous for quite a long time.
31:14 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that why he can call him Shadow of Morgoth, because he has perceived that for Sauron, it's the same dynamic.
31:23 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron wants to exceed Morgoth.
31:26 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, that can better this master if you will not necessarily a descent, you know, an ancestor, but certainly a hierarchical difference in power and accomplishment, if you will, if you can call it accomplishment, I only just know thought of that, but the more I think of it, the more I think, all right, yeah.
31:49 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So often we can see in others the things that are our own weaknesses, if we can be honest enough to look with queer sight.
31:59 --> 32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the eyes of death can be pretty clear sighted, particularly in these kinds of stories.
32:07 --> 32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and to go back to your original question is kind of brimble quote unquote seeing what will happen with Sauron.
32:17 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And my answer is he may well be just trying to get a rise out of Sauron and to provoke him as much as possible because then Sauron will end this.
32:31 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
32:32 --> 32:38 [SPEAKER_00]: On the other hand, when he says, I perceive that one alone shall prove your utter ruin.
32:38 --> 32:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
32:40 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Now come on, because Sauron hadn't made the one ring at this point.
32:44 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not been mentioned to Kelle Brimble about a one ring.
32:48 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's definitely something here.
32:51 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Kelly Brimble may well be trying to provoke Sauron, so he can bring this torture to an end.
32:56 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:57 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think Kelly Brimble is being very perceptive in this moment.
33:03 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And I like how you brought up who are because yes, knowing something, it's given to you to know this in the moment of your death.
33:17 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, who's actual line is I say this to you, Lord, with the eyes of death, from you and for me a new star shall arise, if you can withstand but a little while yet, so that's what really made me focus on this whole eyes of death function.
33:38 --> 33:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a concept used in other literature as well, but
33:43 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_01]: for so many people that that scene at the near north aren't body at is one of the most dramatic and and favorite I mean Allen sister of the prancing pointy podcast we all know his number one favorite line is out right and yes we have we do know that but that's horn who has his own problems with for god oh yes this is for
34:10 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And so his ending and his sons accomplishments are different.
34:16 --> 34:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Very much so.
34:18 --> 34:22 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, I will continue with the last bit here of the scene.
34:23 --> 34:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Glue enters with a few walks and asks if Anatar is sauron.
34:28 --> 34:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Sauron responds with the familiar I have many names.
34:32 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_00]: What is yours, Uruk?
34:34 --> 34:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And glue is deeply affected.
34:41 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually, I can have compassion for Luke.
34:43 --> 34:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I really can.
34:45 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I think we're actually supposed to have compassion for Luke, the way in which his character has been set up.
34:53 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The vision of him as a family orc, you know, he said family man, family orc, but also his concern for his fellow orcs.
35:03 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_00]: which we've seen on more than one occasion and we'll see again that this is somebody where we recognize he is an orc and therefore he is not on our side but we can perceive him as a complex character one who's been given deaths that other portrayals of orcs in previous adaptations have not been given.
35:28 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the thing that makes it so challenging for some people
35:34 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We are seeing in this uteroc who is clearly been given to us as an enemy, experiences that we have had in our lives.
35:45 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_01]: All of the fathers watching out there who have children have to in some level resonate with that scene earlier on with
36:02 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:03 --> 36:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's profoundly uncomfortable if you are not willing to say, even my worst enemies can have things in common with myself.
36:14 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And to my mind, that is the starting of compassion.
36:18 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's good.
36:18 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
36:19 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, very few people are going to want to take that step and have compassion for the Lord of the Lord at work.
36:26 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I agree.
36:28 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_00]: This, it seems to me that with the way in which we've been given the orcs and, of course, Adar in the wings of power, this feels a much more 21st century reading of the other.
36:44 --> 36:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
36:44 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas the Jackson film adaptations are very rooted in 20th century thinking in which it's still perfectly acceptable to think of the Orcs as an amorphous mass that you simply kill as many others possible as quickly as possible.
36:58 --> 37:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I think with what rings of power are doing is they are complicating that and I thought they did a pretty good job of doing that actually
37:10 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so too, I know that there will be listeners who disagree with us, and that's probably fine.
37:18 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I was fascinated by this because what startled me more than anything else in the first season when we first did, season one of the ring's rituals, was the realization that orcs have rituals.
37:32 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I suppose that's part of why I'm calling them Uruk,
37:37 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: because I see them as distinct from the orcs that we see later.
37:40 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that change happens when Sauron takes over.
37:46 --> 37:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But you notice that this is what he first addressed him as.
37:50 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your name, Uruk?
37:54 --> 38:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So they still have this sense of agency, if you will, although we'll see towards the end of this episode that that kind of gets eroded away.
38:05 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I also pick up on the fact that Sauron is fond of saying of himself, I have many names.
38:14 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And so often when I hear that, I think of a text from one of the Christian Gospels when Jesus is in the process of casting out a demon and asks him, what is your name and the demon says?
38:32 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Legion.
38:34 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
38:35 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning I have many, many names, not, you know, I'm a demon of religion of the ninth cohort of the Roman soldiers.
38:43 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I am a legion, I am multitudinous, I have many names.
38:47 --> 38:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So almost a sense of, there is no unity in this being.
38:52 --> 38:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all fragmentation.
38:55 --> 38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: This being will continue to call himself Ron.
39:00 --> 39:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I said many roles, many lifetimes,
39:07 --> 39:18 [SPEAKER_01]: what's there at his center beyond a desire for power over and what is at the center of that other than fear?
39:21 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a little more interesting complication of a of a very evil character.
39:27 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, if you want.
39:28 --> 39:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, no, very much so.
39:29 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a really interesting one.
39:32 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm certainly not feeling any sympathy for yourself on that can promise you that.
39:37 --> 39:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, nope.
39:38 --> 39:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Weeping or otherwise.
39:39 --> 39:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not anytime soon, no thanks.
39:42 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But I wonder, because again, this I have many names as something I believe that the show owners came up with.
39:48 --> 39:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I have to wonder, given their own Christian backgrounds, is this what they were kind of leading towards?
39:53 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think so.
39:54 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_01]: If you keep on taking roll after roll after roll after roll, suddenly you just lose yourself entirely.
39:59 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know who and what you are anymore, except this urge to power over and hurt and meme.
40:06 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And that to my mind is not so much a soul as an agony.
40:16 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, do you want to take us on to the next scene?
40:18 --> 40:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I will do that.
40:21 --> 40:25 [SPEAKER_01]: In Palagir, Isildor goes to pack Astrid's dagger in his bag.
40:26 --> 40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And Theo tells him that it is ill luck to do so as it will cut the journey short.
40:32 --> 40:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He then asks Isildor to tell him how he carries the weight of his mother's dying to save him.
40:38 --> 40:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And Isildor responds poorly.
40:42 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But he also says it is only from his journey to Middle Earth and the grander things that it has shown him that he has realized that.
40:54 --> 40:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He asks Theo to turn to Newman, return to Newman or with him, but Theo says that he likes being a low man.
41:00 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's yielded to says he liked it too.
41:04 --> 41:10 [SPEAKER_01]: He offers him a hand, but instead, Theo hugs him.
41:11 --> 41:18 [SPEAKER_01]: it's a lovely scene and you know in terms of presenting character and character building and you can see Isiel Gorg.
41:19 --> 41:19 [SPEAKER_00]: He's pretty grown up.
41:20 --> 41:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Growing up and moving towards this character that we will see.
41:25 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope.
41:27 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whichever season it is in his own personal climactic event.
41:35 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you so out of do you have a favorite hacking ritual when you go on a journey?
41:41 --> 41:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it doesn't have everybody.
41:43 --> 41:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited.
41:44 --> 41:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have to make sure I bring everything I need to, but I just... Yeah.
41:48 --> 41:50 [SPEAKER_00]: My ritual begins with a list.
41:51 --> 41:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, yeah, because that's the only thing that makes sense to me.
41:55 --> 42:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to make a list and I will break that list up into the various component parts like clothing will be on one section and accessories and another section, et cetera, et cetera.
42:11 --> 42:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But I make a list and then I go and fetch everything that I require and I put it in specific piles upon the bed.
42:21 --> 42:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I move through my list and I place something in the case and tick it off the list.
42:28 --> 42:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I am anal about how I pack.
42:31 --> 42:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It is meticulous.
42:32 --> 42:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, don't leave things behind.
42:34 --> 42:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a thing of meticulous beauty.
42:36 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
42:37 --> 42:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I find if I don't pack things in certain places, then I can't find them.
42:42 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I worry that I left them behind.
42:44 --> 42:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
42:45 --> 42:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So certain cases for certain things, the whole ritual is sorting out which liquids are small enough to carry on the plane and which one, you know, that's a large item.
42:56 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a large item.
42:58 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm packing for my two weeks journey to Swan's Island, I have a list that I have carried over from year to year to year.
43:06 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is crucial for me.
43:08 --> 43:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I still sometimes manage to forget.
43:13 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Important things but that's okay because there is a small
43:16 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_00]: store on the island but I start with the things that you absolutely cannot manage without.
43:23 --> 43:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm traveling internationally, the very thing at the very top of my list will be passport.
43:30 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that slips into my purse very early on.
43:34 --> 43:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I also did the shoes always go on the same place in the case and the socks tucked in the shoes to save space and you know
43:46 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, there's the rituals of what are the plants and calling the pets that are in all the things that we must do and we're going to be away from the house for a certain length of time.
43:55 --> 43:55 [SPEAKER_00]: All the things.
43:56 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_01]: However, even if TSA would not object most strongly, I will, I have never hacked a knife in any of my past.
44:05 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_00]: No!
44:05 --> 44:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Me either!
44:07 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, it never occurred to me that that might be a thing I would do, so no.
44:11 --> 44:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So I did inadvertently forget that I had a Swiss army knife that my sister had given me.
44:18 --> 44:21 [SPEAKER_01]: That was no very important to me in my purse.
44:22 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when they found it, I was dreadfully distressed and I said, okay, I know I can't take this with me.
44:30 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any way, and he said, I'll put it in an envelope.
44:34 --> 44:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You address the envelope.
44:35 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can't, I think they actually mailed it back to me, or maybe you could.
44:38 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Goodness.
44:39 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty good.
44:40 --> 44:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they saved it for me there, and I picked it up when I got back.
44:44 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, there's an advantage living in a state that has small population and nice small airports that are international or connected to international that you can feel comfortable with moving around it and so forth.
44:58 --> 45:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But Theo is not wrong if you actually packed a knife in your bag, it really would cut your journey short.
45:04 --> 45:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It would in this culture and if you're flying, if you're flying, yes.
45:13 --> 45:14 [SPEAKER_01]: in any case.
45:15 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_01]: May I just say that while it was, it's lovely to hear the loon calls outside in this scene, um, I've never really imagined that there were loons in Middle-earth, so it was, it was jarring for me.
45:29 --> 45:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It really felt as though it was out of place, which, of course, is absurd, because why shouldn't there be loons in Middle-earth?
45:34 --> 45:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But,
45:36 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: There were goals in swans, so why not lose?
45:38 --> 45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, exactly, exactly, but I associate lens of the particular kind of place.
45:43 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And while, yes, there are ocean side birds, then I do occasionally see them in the ocean.
45:48 --> 45:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I associate them with lakes in the northern parts of the country.
45:52 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So if I heard Lunes in the Lake District in the Shire, that would have made a lot more sense to me than Lunes in Palaccair.
46:01 --> 46:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's my own personal whatever.
46:04 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So forgive me for indulging myself listeners.
46:07 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Saw it, please take us along the next section here.
46:11 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I will, we're still in Polargear.
46:13 --> 46:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Estrid enters an excuse of returning some bandages she'd borrowed, and she tells Isildar that her betrothed Hagen has already laid the cornerstone of their house.
46:24 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But when he prayed for the gods to bless it and their love she felt ill, that's when they exchanged an a passionate kiss, and Isildar invites her to come with him to Numenor, but when they arrive on the dock, they discover that a few things have changed in Isildar
46:41 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_00]: our favorite person we love to love, Kevin arrives very much in charge of what he calls cleaning up the place and makes it quite clear he's feeling about those he is pleased to call the low men it's amazing he hasn't been decked
46:58 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He is astounded to see a zilder alive, and he does a number of rapid mental calculations before saying that the Aryan will be delighted, but that Kemen's father is now king, and that Elendial is wanted for a reason.
47:11 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_00]: He even says he wishes that a zilder had not survived, and threatens to kill Berek if a zilder just respects him again.
47:18 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Never, ever, ever, have I seen a character that I more wanted to just slap?
47:23 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I do remember even though it's in a very tragic scene overall, I do remember the pleasure That was taken when it's you'll when Ellen they'll decked Yes, finally I bet he enjoyed that very much.
47:38 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I know I did the the follow-up was and No Preferables dressing but So yeah, have at least seen somebody deck him once.
47:48 --> 47:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I I really hope it's gonna happen again
47:52 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, he then goes on to lay down the new lore of the Numenorians for the people of Pelagia, no timber, no food, and ejection from what is now a Numenorian fortress intended to build more ships for the Armada.
48:06 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And here we have the beginning of that colonialism, empire building,
48:17 --> 48:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and if any personality is going to enact it, the Kemenish personality is definitely at the top of the list as far as I'm concerned.
48:26 --> 48:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we should adopt that word, Kemenish.
48:29 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Kemenish?
48:29 --> 48:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a great descriptor of a certain kind of person.
48:32 --> 48:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I enjoy creating theologism so you're welcome to it.
48:36 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, thank you.
48:38 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whenever I hear the name Hagen,
48:41 --> 48:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I immediately go to Wagner's adaptation of the Volsengessaga.
48:44 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, right.
48:45 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, ring-cycle, operas.
48:48 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_01]: In the second operative, Alkira, Hagen is a Lord who forced a woman of his vanquished foes to marry him, only to let her discover that she is the sister of Azigun, who falls passionately in love with her and she with him.
49:03 --> 49:07 [SPEAKER_01]: They escape together, but eventually are tracked down by Hagen, who kills Azigun.
49:08 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Ziglinda escapes long enough only to give birth to Zigfried the hero of the age before she dies.
49:14 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:15 --> 49:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know, folks, this may just be the fever imaginations of an opera lover, but I don't know the saga literature, practically at all, and particularly the holes in the saga, but
49:31 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't know, I just wanted to plant that seed and see if anything grows from it.
49:37 --> 49:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, goodness.
49:40 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Next, we see Galadriel being wrought by the Uruk's to add out.
49:46 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It was kneeling at a large piece of stone.
49:50 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks not unlike an altar.
49:51 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, but it has more than a square on it.
49:56 --> 50:01 [SPEAKER_01]: She tells him that she is willing to accept his terms and we'll fight with him to overcome Sauron.
50:03 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Adar asks how she proposes to do this without her ring and standing, turns slowly to reveal that Galatheil's ring has healed the damage that was done to him literally ages ago.
50:18 --> 50:22 [SPEAKER_01]: He wishes to keep the name Adar and offers her her ring.
50:23 --> 50:30 [SPEAKER_01]: swearing that once Sauron is being vanquished, Adar, where we turn with his children to Morhtor, and will never trouble Middle-earth again.
50:32 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The Latheriel says that she has slaughtered more of his children than any other elf, but Adar says he forgives her, and asks her help to create a lasting peace.
50:44 --> 50:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, Saurar.
50:46 --> 50:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I know.
50:47 --> 50:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those, what could have been moments.
50:51 --> 50:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, this was just heart-rending and shocking.
50:57 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The very first time you see it.
50:59 --> 51:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the last thing you're expecting.
51:01 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
51:02 --> 51:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But you look and you say, all right.
51:06 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_01]: This really was the result of corruption.
51:09 --> 51:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's really astounding is that Adaud was able to cling for so long to the love that he had for his children with all of the horrible, horrible, distortion and corruption that was done to him.
51:25 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying he hasn't done some pretty horrible things.
51:28 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, process, including to his children on occasions.
51:31 --> 51:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
51:36 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_01]: him having one of his children hold the arm out in the sunlight till it started to literally crisp and I thought that was just vile and disgusting to me.
51:46 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It does kind of give a tilted angle to this which I am leading up to the fact that once again we see the Dutch camera angle.
51:56 --> 52:07 [SPEAKER_01]: with the scenes between the two of them, but for those who don't remember this means that instead of having a straight on horizontal vertical camera that acts as if the camera is tilted to one side.
52:09 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And you might not even notice it at first because it can be very subtle.
52:13 --> 52:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But once you have seen it, it's impossible to not see it.
52:16 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
52:17 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think every time we have seen these two characters together, this Dutch angle has been used.
52:24 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd love to speculate, although I really don't have enough background to do this, about what they were trying to convey with this.
52:32 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Because here's a glorious scene.
52:34 --> 52:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's exactly what I would have wanted, and I think many other people would have wanted.
52:41 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But is it telling us that,
52:43 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_01]: it's just not possible, is it telling us, is it deception?
52:48 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it a self-deception now of that?
52:51 --> 52:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's telling us that we're seeing it.
52:57 --> 53:03 [SPEAKER_00]: somehow, you know, a way that is throwing us off.
53:03 --> 53:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not supposed to be comfortable with the Dutch camera angle.
53:07 --> 53:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to convey a sense of being off balance.
53:10 --> 53:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's something isn't right in the way that it is.
53:14 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that that means that Adara is lying.
53:19 --> 53:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It may
53:23 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not a thing that can happen, and any minute now, we're going to see just how quickly it becomes not happening.
53:32 --> 53:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you see how often they use the Dutch camera angle when it's gradual and add-ar, I think we're meant to be thrown off balance by everything that happens within
53:48 --> 53:54 [SPEAKER_00]: with those scenes that there's something just not quite right with our perception of what's going on between these two characters.
53:54 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It's an interesting technique.
53:56 --> 54:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and the thing that I suppose it leaves it up to the viewer to decide, I suppose because of the angle many people could have said, oh well, he's just leading her on.
54:08 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't really mean it.
54:10 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
54:12 --> 54:13 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't either.
54:13 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't do it.
54:14 --> 54:15 [SPEAKER_00]: In the moment, anyway.
54:16 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he would have stuck with it.
54:20 --> 54:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But in the midst of war, two people from opposing sides trying desperately to make peace.
54:27 --> 54:30 [SPEAKER_01]: They're usually the first ones to get destroyed.
54:31 --> 54:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Because neither side wants peace by that time.
54:34 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_01]: They both want to fight.
54:36 --> 54:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And so anything that they might bring up is just slip to side, a last one where the other.
54:45 --> 54:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking practically, do you really think this could have worked?
54:49 --> 54:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm thinking back to Adara's question to Galadriel earlier on when she says, look, we can work this out somehow.
55:01 --> 55:07 [SPEAKER_01]: When he asks her whether the hiking's forces would ever fight side by side with autos against Sauron?
55:08 --> 55:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a tough question.
55:10 --> 55:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
55:12 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that as much as anything is the sticking point.
55:17 --> 55:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because what you need between allies is trust.
55:21 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
55:23 --> 55:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that either side would ever fully trust the other.
55:28 --> 55:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And so perhaps this is also a good example of why peace-building is so incredibly hard.
55:35 --> 56:00 [SPEAKER_01]: and not just necessarily piece-building that is a literal or war situation, but two groups of people who are in conflict for whatever reason that it is usually the only option to bring it about is to have one-on-one conversations, to try and reach across this Gulf.
56:01 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_01]: things to show, oh, okay, we're really not all that, where we have similarities at any rate.
56:06 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even have to take them out, him and step up, I guess, we're really not all that different for one another.
56:12 --> 56:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what that scene with Luke's baby was all about.
56:17 --> 56:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Showing us that it could have been possible, that there were similarities, and if there had been enough will, to avoid the violence, to avoid the war,
56:31 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, it's just too huge.
56:35 --> 56:37 [SPEAKER_01]: A reggae and it's just been sacked.
56:38 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_01]: All of these horrible things are happening.
56:41 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And really, how many of the oil looks are going to agree tough fighting alongside or else, never mind the else and the orcs.
56:51 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's just such a heartbreaking scene for me from beginning to end.
56:57 --> 56:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it doesn't get any better.
56:59 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to shut the scene.
57:02 --> 57:09 [SPEAKER_00]: A group of orcs arrives bearing the body of glug on a stretcher, Adar is deeply distressed, but it's a trap.
57:10 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Glug stabs him, and then the encircling orcs fall upon him mutilating his body.
57:16 --> 57:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Sauron appears and picks up the crown of Morgoth.
57:20 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Adar calls the orcs his children once more in the black speech, but Sauron tells him there are no longer children.
57:27 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Glug delivers the final stab and leads his fellows in hailing Sauron as the new dark Lord.
57:33 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_00]: He orders them to raise a Region and leave no Elph alive, but to bring the leaders to him.
57:41 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It's noticeable that you've been talking about the Dutch camera angle that while they are stabbing at our, the Dutch camera angle disappears, but it returns with the appearance of Sauron.
57:59 --> 58:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm even more confused because it seems to me that if we're talking about, you know, what is real and what is deception, that's stabbing is about as real as it gets.
58:13 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no deception going on here.
58:16 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_00]: What's normal camera angle, maybe.
58:18 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:19 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:20 --> 58:20 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm thinking.
58:21 --> 58:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
58:21 --> 58:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Sour on the Master of Deception.
58:25 --> 58:27 [SPEAKER_01]: it comes back when when he comes back.
58:28 --> 58:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But then why was it there between Adar and Galatria?
58:32 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't think either of them were speaking from a place of deception.
58:36 --> 58:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But no, again, it was self-deception on Adar's art believing.
58:40 --> 58:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's much more likely.
58:41 --> 58:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Believing that this really could be so.
58:44 --> 58:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:45 --> 58:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:50 --> 59:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So Galatriel is still there, and a cell run denies her accusation that this outcome was his plan all along, saying that even he cannot predict all the windings on the road.
59:06 --> 59:09 [SPEAKER_01]: She attacks him, but he counters her strike with Morggloss crown.
59:10 --> 59:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They battle as the smoke billows over the ruins of Regan, where Elvarond is crushed over the burning of Kelebrinburg's manuscripts.
59:18 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_01]: The High King is almost literally crushed until one of the Orcs yells that Sauron wants the leaders spared.
59:27 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Rack is Leo Rondier appears seemingly out of nowhere, another captive and very much alive, but El Rond has eyes for nothing but the flaming manuscripts.
59:40 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to say I have enormous sympathy for El Rond at this point.
59:46 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_01]: As an historian, a librarian, and a sometime archivist myself, I think of all the manuscript collections that were lost during only the most recent two world wars.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And this was something that deeply grieved, talking as well, and had an impact on his own work because an awful lot of earlier versions of the manuscripts of the Anglo-Saxon literature that he was discussing
01:00:16 --> 01:00:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And you think of the fact that we had only had one surviving manuscript available.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And even that was threatened in a fire and parts of it were burned.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine this world without the available story?
01:00:30 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine talking without the available?
01:00:33 --> 01:00:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I just can't.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The whole notion is just chillingly incomprehensible to me.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So I do get that.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And the historian and so forth, I have to say I really cannot say that I would have traded lives for them.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I, that's one of those, that's a different thing, isn't it really?
01:00:58 --> 01:01:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Questions, people like to throw a pass of this, and I, I cannot say what I would do in the moment.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to, I can only answer that in a moment.
01:01:07 --> 01:01:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But I definitely understand the devastation that he feels at this point.
01:01:13 --> 01:01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the loss of those manuscripts is going to really hit somebody like Elrond.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well meanwhile, Sauron and Galadriel continue to fight.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_00]: He quotes Finnrod's line, sometimes to find the light we must first touch the darkness.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And Galadriel denies that they have ever had anything in common with one another.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:45 [SPEAKER_00]: She's about to deliver his death blow when he transitions to the form of Halbrand, and then to her own form, saying, they could no longer distinguish me from the evil I was fighting.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:52 [SPEAKER_00]: followed by Caleb Rimball, and then Sauron again, claiming the door is still open between them.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:55 [SPEAKER_00]: The Galadriel assures in the door is Slamjut.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 [SPEAKER_00]: She manages a slash on his face before he backs her against a stone and stabs her with more goss crown.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_00]: She slips to the ground and the nine rings fall at Sauron's feet.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He picks them up just as the sound of dwarven horns is heard approaching a
01:02:13 --> 01:02:24 [SPEAKER_00]: He tries to compel Galadriel to give him her ring, but she responds, you wish to heal mid-earth, heal yourself first, and steps backward off the cliff, her ring clutched in her hand.
01:02:25 --> 01:02:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Now then.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is, I just realized, does that ever mirror what we just saw, Addard healing himself with her ring?
01:02:37 --> 01:02:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Now that was outside of her choice because the ring was taken from her.
01:02:41 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, here, we almost see that mirrored, and then she says, nope, nope, not for you, nope, you got to do it yourself.
01:02:52 --> 01:02:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And wow, is that ever a potent ring that Galadriel has on her finger, huh?
01:02:57 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, definitely.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And look at what he's prepared to do to keep it from falling into Sauron's hands.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, literally.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, call it suicide, call it, you know, self-inflicted death, whatever you like.
01:03:11 --> 01:03:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get a suicidal despair, it's more like a sacrifice, a defiance, a self-molation of defiance, if you will.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wish they could have had some moment where you hear some door say,
01:03:38 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Nevertheless, we do see the dwarves streaming into Oregian and transforming the sacking by the orcs into a route.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The three Elvish leaders are quickly freed from their captivity, but Elrond is grieved to learn from Narvey, who is leading the dwarven army.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:57 [SPEAKER_01]: The Doran is in mourning.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: They all look up just in time to see Galadriel's body flowing down a very, very high cliff outside the city.
01:04:08 --> 01:04:10 [SPEAKER_01]: just how high this cliff really was.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:12 [SPEAKER_00]: No, well, they were fighting.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:15 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, until they show this.
01:04:18 --> 01:04:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Luke rushes back to that very high cliff to tell Sauron that the dwarves are protecting the remainder of the elves retreat as they evacuate the city and ask for orders.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron kills the messenger.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, this is what treachery gets you.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I hope nobody is surprised by this.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:41 [SPEAKER_01]: No, treachery, but also fury.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Sauron is furious right now.
01:04:45 --> 01:04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
01:04:46 --> 01:04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that the jab similar to what Caleb Brimbor gave him earlier, you know, the shadow of Mordoth and Galaviril, heal yourself first.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's gonna sting even more.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:17 [SPEAKER_01]: don't taunt a Maya or a vala just you know just don't do it on your head she didn't care she didn't care because she had Pretty much knew what her ending was gonna be One who has to live with the energies of what a Gotham side you anyway.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: No thanks.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yuck Fortunately, you'll go out and know Ronda you're fine to the dying Galagheria with the base of the cliff
01:05:26 --> 01:05:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The hiking tries to use the power of his ring and his office to drive the darkness from her, but he is not overcoming it completely.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Elrond arrives and sees Galabadil's ring on the ground.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:49 [SPEAKER_01]: He picks it up and finally puts it on, declaring that the two rings together can drive the darkness from her.
01:05:52 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:05:53 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had problems with Elron's problems with the rings since the beginning of him having problems with the elephant rings.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that the elephant rings aren't problematic because they are, but not in the way that they are depicting it here.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:16 [SPEAKER_00]: But interesting that he puts all that to one side and finally puts on the ring because he wants to save Galadriel.
01:06:18 --> 01:06:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it took, you know, the near corpse of his dearest friend lying at his feet to say, okay, there are worse things than using tools that the enemy might have had a hand in.
01:06:33 --> 01:06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: If we know how powerful they can be, and of course this was prefigured when we saw how powerfully that ring had healed.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Adar, so we kind of knew what to expect at that point, and Adar doesn't of course, but he seems, you know, quite clear that, yes, of course, the two together will help.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I also found it reminiscent of, um,
01:06:57 --> 01:07:15 [SPEAKER_01]: the old tradition of amongst British royalty and other possibly other continental roles as well, but I only know it from the British side of the monarch laying on of hands to drive up what was called the king's evil or the queen's evil if it was a queen regent.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: and scholars today think that that meant Scruffula, which is a sort of a skin disease.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's pretty visible for all to see.
01:07:24 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Because for a long time, it made no sense to me that all wrongs ring would have any kind of function in this particular role.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:43 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, we really don't see how Gil Gallauds ring functions with him wearing it.
01:07:45 --> 01:07:47 [SPEAKER_01]: give it to El Ron Spoiler.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry if you didn't know that.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but we never, we don't really see him using it in any of the texts that we read.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought for a while that, that feels kind of off to me because what's this whole thing about, you know, healing and whatever, but then when he says the power of his office and that for the first time got through to
01:08:16 --> 01:08:21 [SPEAKER_01]: whatever his actual religious we don't know but he has been a claim that I came by the elves and therefore he is.
01:08:22 --> 01:08:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that could help me make more sense of the notion that he could be involved in a healing that was healing the power of the evil and driving it out.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know,
01:08:38 --> 01:08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a form of power over, and power over cannot completely accomplish this alone, but combined with healing, and I like to take of it as power with, just some degree, because it is her ring, after all, and Elderland is finally using it.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So, together, that togetherness also helps to finally,
01:09:03 --> 01:09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Breakthrough Elrond's inhibition, but also push out the last of the evil that is still bringing ink and collaboratively.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's head east.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I said.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Where Nory and Poppy are doing what they can and the aftermath of the destruction of the stores dwellings.
01:09:24 --> 01:09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: But when Nory says they must fix it, Poppy tells her that after her family died, Sadok Baro's told that some things that are lost are lost forever.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Demonstrating once again her connection to Sam Gamji, who will walk you around for a little while, but yeah.
01:09:41 --> 01:09:43 [SPEAKER_00]: She speaks over a montage of images.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Doran and Disa with the dwarfish caught behind the morning and empty throne, draped in black.
01:09:49 --> 01:10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: The few remaining elves following a woodland path, is sealed her departing on the ship back to Numenor, watched by Theo and by Hagen, who carefully reaches out to take Estrid's hand.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Midiel standing in chains before Farrason, listening to Bell's agar, reading out an indictment, while Elendiel rides away from the city.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:17 [SPEAKER_00]: and we have this quote from it at those times you just have to accept it what's broke is broke and it won't be fixed.
01:10:18 --> 01:10:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It's that kind of wisdom that we hear from Sam in the third age, yeah, very similar kind of wisdom.
01:10:25 --> 01:10:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, yeah, it's really rooted, yeah.
01:10:29 --> 01:10:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But ominously over a vision of sound on holding Feyenoors Hammer, we hear and all you can do is to try to build
01:10:40 --> 01:10:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, the first time I saw that, I just didn't understand that juxtaposition of the statement on the image.
01:10:48 --> 01:10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And this time I said, oh boy, yeah.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I see what they're doing here.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, whatever.
01:11:01 --> 01:11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So it is Poppy who leads the stores out from the only home they have ever known into their first migration.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them choose to bid farewell to the stranger as Grand Elf.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he observes that they don't even know what to pack, and the stranger responds, or what to leave.
01:11:22 --> 01:11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: She tells the stranger that she would love to travel with him forever, but has realized that it's time for them to follow different paths.
01:11:30 --> 01:11:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The stranger claims they are very different people, but Norris says,
01:11:39 --> 01:11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: as he leaves the store of village alone.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: The stranger stumbles upon his own staff at last.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And makes his way back to the house of Tom Bambadil, who was already preparing tea.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Cool, see us.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course he is, he's Tom Bambadil.
01:11:54 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Tom tells him that both a wizard's staff and his name find him.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And the stranger realizes that folk will call him Gandalf.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: and Gandalf responds, let us sing together, their song drifts away over the hills and into the window of the dark wizard, whose bloodred stone is gleaming on his staff.
01:12:24 --> 01:12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So once again, epiphany in this second viewing of this episode, Tom and Gandalf singing together now that the song began.
01:12:34 --> 01:12:38 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the first time I ever made a connection between Tom's song and the I knew Lindelay.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, interesting.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I would say that this song is a ritual for Tom.
01:12:44 --> 01:12:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm, intended to be a physical representation and reinforcement of the music.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:59 [SPEAKER_01]: There's never ceased, but it's constantly in need of mending, of repairing of reinforcement, if you will.
01:13:00 --> 01:13:05 [SPEAKER_01]: and Gandalf's final discovery of himself and his name and his identity and his purpose.
01:13:06 --> 01:13:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think as a form of re-weaving, he has come back together with what he left behind in the West and who and what he is now.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like the idea.
01:13:16 --> 01:13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:13:16 --> 01:13:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_01]: There may be a paper there, but not sure yet.
01:13:20 --> 01:13:22 [SPEAKER_01]: There are all sorts of theories, of course, about who Trump is.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I've always felt Thomas the music incarnate.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:31 [SPEAKER_01]: because that explains why he could have been there before the first dream drop, et cetera.
01:13:33 --> 01:13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And this also is based a little bit on Tolkien's on writings about Tom, which, very, I mean, hello, Tolkien.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But in this one case that I'm thinking of, he said that Tom is the spirit of the fast disappearing English countryside.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm expanding that out to include all of A.A.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I think each time Tom sings with his song, it's almost as if he is re-weaving the fabric of the world.
01:13:58 --> 01:14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And now Gandalf is committed to that same endeavor, singing that same song.
01:14:02 --> 01:14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like that interpretation of the scene, that works.
01:14:07 --> 01:14:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Good, thank you.
01:14:09 --> 01:14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I know Tom Bombadil has been a challenging character, show we say in this show.
01:14:16 --> 01:14:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
01:14:17 --> 01:14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I still don't understand why he's in ruin.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I really don't understand why we have the song of the river daughter coming through because, you know, she's the river daughter, the river out west.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But he's here and I suppose they wanted to do something with him.
01:14:45 --> 01:14:52 [SPEAKER_00]: in him being there and we have something like this to understand it through, I think, yeah, that kind of works.
01:14:52 --> 01:15:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I also imagined, and I thought there was some, I thought Tom actually said something to the effect of, I came out here to see what was going on because this used to be a beautiful lush place, full of greenery and water and so forth, and it changed, and so I came out to find out why,
01:15:15 --> 01:15:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when he encountered the first wizard.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the second one.
01:15:19 --> 01:15:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he sings to Goldberry in the misdivist because hey, if I'm on a trip and my beloved is back home, I'm going to use whatever technology is available to me to call him and say hi and how you're doing and maintain connection.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And if Goldberry is the daughter of the river, river being water, if you've got a bowl of water,
01:15:41 --> 01:15:43 [SPEAKER_01]: then you could make a connection.
01:15:43 --> 01:15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just Tom's version of, you know, an iPhone or something, if you like, a very wet iPhone.
01:15:51 --> 01:15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very well, I found a wonderful, no, that doesn't work.
01:15:56 --> 01:15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, thank you for listening to my speculations.
01:16:00 --> 01:16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It's odd I wanted to continue.
01:16:02 --> 01:16:04 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I love the speculations, always good.
01:16:04 --> 01:16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:16:06 --> 01:16:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we are back with the dwarves.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Narvey reports to Durin that the remaining elves have fled from the sack of Heragion and are being led by Elrond to a valley north of the city.
01:16:17 --> 01:16:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Durin wishes to promise them the aid of Hazard Doom, but Disa reminds him that the kings of the other realms are demanding back the tribute that they paid to the old king.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And Narvey reminds him that not all of the dwarves regard him as his father's chosen air.
01:16:36 --> 01:16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And Doran gases at the dwarven rings on their plinth.
01:16:41 --> 01:16:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't do it, Doran.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't do it.
01:16:44 --> 01:16:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he's already sworn to his beloved that he won't.
01:16:47 --> 01:16:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:16:48 --> 01:16:55 [SPEAKER_01]: That vowel may be tested, but I, I, a golly, if they have him put it on that ring, I will be so cross.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I have my own notions of how that might work out, but we don't have to get into that here.
01:16:59 --> 01:17:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say, I'm sorry, but wow, was there ever a hand waving moment here?
01:17:06 --> 01:17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: The last time we saw that ring, the king had taken it off his finger and put it on a piece
01:17:19 --> 01:17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... didn't see anybody run to pick it up before the walls fell in but i guess we're just supposed to assume that's what happened i think so but with disa right there wouldn't she said heck no throw the thing in on the wall you know i would yes was right there so
01:17:40 --> 01:17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a hand-wavering moment.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a hand-wavering moment and maybe it's showing us that even Doran, the stouthearted, the true, the beloved of Disa, can be tempted because the weight of leadership and authority is a pretty heavy one.
01:17:58 --> 01:18:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's got a brother waiting in the wings.
01:18:00 --> 01:18:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We're told this already.
01:18:02 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Who probably has his eyes on that throne too?
01:18:07 --> 01:18:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say so.
01:18:08 --> 01:18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:18:09 --> 01:18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, there's going to be trouble at mill before this is over.
01:18:14 --> 01:18:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So our final scene, Galadriel Awakens, still in lingering pain, and Gil Gallaud regrets the loss of her peaceful company, which is not her usual setting show.
01:18:28 --> 01:18:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Elrond comes to tell her that they are in a sanctuary and removes her protective ring from his finger to put it on hers.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: and she clearly feels a strong sense of relief.
01:18:43 --> 01:18:49 [SPEAKER_01]: A rendezvous arrives, glad to see her returning to health, and they explain the choice that lies before them.
01:18:50 --> 01:18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: To Harry Sauron's troops, or to fall back and build a strong defense.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:03 [SPEAKER_01]: The Latherio wishes to remember the advice of Kelle Brimboar, that it is light that overcomes the darkness, not strength,
01:19:08 --> 01:19:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Before, walk out high above where the remaining elves are gathered, and Gil Gallaudet draws his sword, holding it the loft to the encouragement of all her remaining.
01:19:19 --> 01:19:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's a, it's a positive note to end the season on.
01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It isn't yet, I find it also contains a certain amount of ambiguity there.
01:19:29 --> 01:19:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see how drawing a sword is, uh, peaceful.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's not relying on light.
01:19:37 --> 01:19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, through same time, I think it will be a case of both and I think that's what they're pointing to in the trailer scenes that we have seen.
01:19:48 --> 01:19:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:19:49 --> 01:20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: That, yes, we will continue to build this as a refuge in a safe place, and we can't just let Uruk's rage all over what remains of the alert here.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But it is definitely a positive moment bears music swelling up beautifully, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et
01:20:33 --> 01:20:56 [SPEAKER_01]: horse coming in the brana, which is where Howard Shore got it from, oh no, excuse me, John Williams got it from when he was writing the dual of the fates in the prequel trilogy that is supposed to indicate the battle between the light and dark sides of the force, et cetera.
01:20:56 --> 01:20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's the same kind of coral.
01:20:58 --> 01:21:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da!
01:21:00 --> 01:21:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Sort of thing.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is I Philip told me in the name of it, and I'm not remembering exactly, but it's something about Warriors if I remember correctly.
01:21:10 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Please correct me if I'm wrong.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Or look it up.
01:21:13 --> 01:21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you'll find a look at bears blog It's definitely worth it.
01:21:18 --> 01:21:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to do some quick reflections.
01:21:21 --> 01:21:21 [SPEAKER_01]: That's do it.
01:21:22 --> 01:21:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:21:23 --> 01:21:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely like season two more after this rewatch And it feels a little bit closer to the stories that I know and love
01:21:32 --> 01:21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I said this earlier, I find that the characters that they invented are much richer and more fully realized, because they're not constrained.
01:21:40 --> 01:21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: They have a free hand to develop those arcs.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really sorry to lose that odd.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, me too.
01:21:48 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, the Anatol, Calibran-Borsho, though, you know, there's going to be flashbacks, I think.
01:21:55 --> 01:21:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that some of the trailer stuff is hinted at that.
01:22:00 --> 01:22:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And the previously known characters had it a bit more time to expand in this season too.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it may be that some of the Lord changes from season one or a bit less rocky.
01:22:12 --> 01:22:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I definitely like the rich cultures that they're showing us and uncovering them with you, sort of through this lens of ritual, but just recognizing them as as cultures on their own.
01:22:23 --> 01:22:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And then seeing there still are lower similarities as much as differences in them.
01:22:30 --> 01:22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking forward to seeing how the showeners envision the creation of the one.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, seeing some spectacular imagery already.
01:22:39 --> 01:22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I really hope we've got to see more of the faithful.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I know we're going to see more of the faithful now.
01:22:42 --> 01:22:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very much looking forward to that.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And finally, meeting anorion.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Not to mention.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Calabon.
01:22:50 --> 01:22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
01:22:51 --> 01:22:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
01:22:51 --> 01:22:52 [SPEAKER_00]: The silverclam.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: The silverclam.
01:22:54 --> 01:22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love it if we would see three union of all three of Elendiel's children together.
01:23:00 --> 01:23:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw one really fast clip in the trailer, which I thought hinted at that, but then somebody else said, oh, the character that I saw was probably a different character.
01:23:10 --> 01:23:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
01:23:12 --> 01:23:12 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope I get more character development for Theo, though I think probably one thing is always at the surface anger is going to be stirred up by Cameron and used for
01:23:29 --> 01:23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: more cared on more cared on yes i really want to see more cared on and also the early stages of revenge i hope they spend some time with that but this may be the south on show you know the whole focal point center in the way they've been talking about the ring is the center of all the mythologies and
01:23:49 --> 01:23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if talking with like that as much, but you know, yeah, so people often see it.
01:23:56 --> 01:23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, very understandable in some ways.
01:23:59 --> 01:24:00 [SPEAKER_01]: What are your reflections, sir?
01:24:01 --> 01:24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I preferred season two to season one.
01:24:09 --> 01:24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like there was more character development in season two, which was good.
01:24:15 --> 01:24:15 [SPEAKER_00]: There were some
01:24:18 --> 01:24:19 [SPEAKER_00]: in season two.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Mostly later on to be honest in the season, but some of the big climactic scenes were truly awesome.
01:24:29 --> 01:24:32 [SPEAKER_00]: They're power and that was great.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So I enjoyed that.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I too, I'm sorry to lose Adara.
01:24:37 --> 01:24:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that he was a very complicated character and he complicated the notion
01:24:46 --> 01:24:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, and that's good actually rather than have him too dimensional.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:52 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the bad guy.
01:24:52 --> 01:24:55 [SPEAKER_00]: We hate him right because he's the bad guy.
01:24:55 --> 01:25:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, we get one who's incredibly complicated and we can see who he was underneath the scars.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:10 [SPEAKER_00]: We can see the elf that he was and that is extraordinary.
01:25:10 --> 01:25:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
01:25:13 --> 01:25:16 [SPEAKER_00]: What happens to someone like Adar when they die?
01:25:18 --> 01:25:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he was an elf.
01:25:19 --> 01:25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: What happens does his VR go to the halls of Mandos?
01:25:25 --> 01:25:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And if it does, is it like else as opposed to get popped back into a heroa after a certain period of time of reflection and counselling and psychotherapy and all the things that he would need?
01:25:38 --> 01:25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, in which case does he get put back in his original heroa that is undamaged and uncorrupted?
01:25:45 --> 01:25:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he surely couldn't be put back into his corrupted heroa.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have questions that, I mean, I don't know the answer to any of these, but it's the sort of question that wakes me up at 2 o'clock in the morning and I go, oh, oh, no.
01:25:58 --> 01:26:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't know about that anyway.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:05 [SPEAKER_01]: As always, very, very rich sorrow questions you come with.
01:26:05 --> 01:26:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have a feeling, I cannot imagine, I thought it was deciding to, his failure, deciding to return to more class.
01:26:12 --> 01:26:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't see that happening.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think he goes to Mandos.
01:26:16 --> 01:26:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It could go in multiple directions as to Yeah, he just after that.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, think about what he does with Galadriel's ring he heals himself.
01:26:27 --> 01:26:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah Yeah, I think that's what he would truly want in which case You would hope that he gets to go to Mandos and maybe not be on the naughty step as long as fey and all But that he could be truly healed That would be I think a comfort
01:26:46 --> 01:26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, that's just a thought.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just throwing that out there.
01:26:49 --> 01:26:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, it's just a thought.
01:26:51 --> 01:26:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that we've lost Adar.
01:26:54 --> 01:27:03 [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm looking forward to is the new complicated bad that we're going to get in the form of the Nazgugal.
01:27:04 --> 01:27:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Nazgugal, yes, that should be interesting.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they are going to be interesting.
01:27:16 --> 01:27:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, I mean, the dark wizard we already have him.
01:27:19 --> 01:27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about the new, the new new.
01:27:22 --> 01:27:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to get come all the Easterling.
01:27:24 --> 01:27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that could be fun.
01:27:28 --> 01:27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, particularly if you turns out to be one of the kings of Bronx people.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that would be really interesting to see what they do with him.
01:27:40 --> 01:27:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm looking forward to seeing that.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I am looking forward to seeing what they do now we have a bell rock.
01:27:50 --> 01:27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: because we know that there's going to be a seron verse is the bell-rock conversation because the bell-rock is being given a voice.
01:27:58 --> 01:27:59 [SPEAKER_00]: We know this.
01:28:00 --> 01:28:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:28:00 --> 01:28:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:28:01 --> 01:28:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually don't have a problem with that.
01:28:03 --> 01:28:04 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
01:28:06 --> 01:28:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder what to my are.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:18 [SPEAKER_00]: like this, we'll be able to say to each other and how they will negotiate a very uneasy piece of whatever kind.
01:28:19 --> 01:28:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Sauron's going to want the Balrog on his side, the Balrogs probably going to be, well, what's in it for me?
01:28:26 --> 01:28:26 [SPEAKER_00]: You think?
01:28:27 --> 01:28:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I think.
01:28:28 --> 01:28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You think?
01:28:29 --> 01:28:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So that this could be interesting.
01:28:31 --> 01:28:37 [SPEAKER_00]: There will be prints now, King Doran's brother appearing on the scene.
01:28:38 --> 01:28:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's really going through a spanner in the works.
01:28:42 --> 01:28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:45 [SPEAKER_00]: There's things to look forward to there.
01:28:46 --> 01:28:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always looking forward to more dessert because she's just fabulous.
01:28:51 --> 01:28:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
01:28:52 --> 01:28:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you what I want from season three.
01:28:55 --> 01:28:59 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not what I'm looking forward to because I don't know this is going to happen, but this is what I want.
01:29:00 --> 01:29:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I want the narrative to get going.
01:29:03 --> 01:29:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I want the narrative to start moving now.
01:29:05 --> 01:29:06 [SPEAKER_00]: We have established the characters.
01:29:07 --> 01:29:09 [SPEAKER_00]: We have established the places.
01:29:09 --> 01:29:10 [SPEAKER_00]: We're now in season three.
01:29:10 --> 01:29:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get going because they have a lot to do in the remaining seasons.
01:29:16 --> 01:29:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah.
01:29:17 --> 01:29:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that by the end of season three, Sauron has got to be at least on his way to nominal, because they're going to need the whole of season four, yeah, to really bring newmen or down, so that by the end of season four, they sink newmen all.
01:29:31 --> 01:29:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that has to happen because season five has to be the last alliance.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and, and how much time can you spend on that
01:29:46 --> 01:29:48 [SPEAKER_01]: as opposed to massive battle scenes.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but frankly, okay, there's the rule of call.
01:29:54 --> 01:29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm far more interested in the characters than I am in the latest college.
01:29:59 --> 01:30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You is, look what we can do in terms of battles.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I had no doubt that they will spend at least three episodes on that last battle.
01:30:09 --> 01:30:19 [SPEAKER_01]: probably and it merits three episodes because of course as we know the siege went on for three years Yes, I don't have any of it prior to the siege it was it was going so
01:30:19 --> 01:30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it does need time, but the other thing that needs time in season five is the establishment of the exiles from Numenor.
01:30:27 --> 01:30:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then New Kingdoms.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:30:30 --> 01:30:31 [SPEAKER_00]: All of this needs to be established.
01:30:32 --> 01:30:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it also an anorion and then New Kingdoms or that?
01:30:35 --> 01:30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So when I say I need the narrative to get moving, I mean, I need the narrative to get moving because otherwise they're going to be squishing together.
01:30:48 --> 01:30:49 [SPEAKER_00]: very big events.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And they need to give them time to breathe.
01:30:53 --> 01:30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:30:55 --> 01:31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm worried that the foraging is going to take a lot of oxygen for the room.
01:31:03 --> 01:31:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it'll be magnificent and wonderful and impressive and all those other things.
01:31:08 --> 01:31:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I can easily see where they might decide just to tuck the character and stories and moving forward into the corners.
01:31:15 --> 01:31:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Sort of as is relief.
01:31:18 --> 01:31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But from everything I've seen and heard this season three is going to be the forging of the one Yeah, I'm hoping it doesn't take up the entire season because they got to get moving.
01:31:30 --> 01:31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, we do know that we're going to get character development with Galathe-Ale and Kela-Born They got to get go and if Elder I'm just going to have a wife, right?
01:31:39 --> 01:31:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean unless unless we find out that there was a Childhood and being cared for by Kela
01:31:47 --> 01:31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yes, where is Kalebrian?
01:31:49 --> 01:31:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's, right.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, hopefully with Kalebrian parents, you know, in which case I've even more questions about Elron kissing Galadriel.
01:31:58 --> 01:31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
01:31:58 --> 01:32:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm fine with that.
01:32:00 --> 01:32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm absolutely fine with that.
01:32:01 --> 01:32:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It was purely a deceptive device.
01:32:05 --> 01:32:05 [SPEAKER_01]: He knew it.
01:32:05 --> 01:32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: She knew it.
01:32:06 --> 01:32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: They knew it.
01:32:06 --> 01:32:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all great.
01:32:07 --> 01:32:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You did to know and it was intended and it succeeded in
01:32:13 --> 01:32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: completely confounding the works and making a lot of them look away, which is exactly what I wanted at that point, so I'm fine with it.
01:32:20 --> 01:32:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I really am.
01:32:22 --> 01:32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: If those people that are still uncertain about it, listen to Philip Menzy's wonderful podcast on YouTube, in which it's I think it's his second episode, he talks about the kiss, and he talks about the melodic
01:32:40 --> 01:32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he's quite right, and I really do.
01:32:43 --> 01:32:45 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, listen, yeah.
01:32:45 --> 01:32:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of music, when you said, you were going to have to deal with the problem of the Valerog into my unrepentant musical mind came.
01:32:55 --> 01:32:58 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you solve a problem of like the Valerog?
01:32:58 --> 01:32:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my goodness.
01:33:01 --> 01:33:02 [SPEAKER_00]: perfection, but yes.
01:33:03 --> 01:33:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:33:04 --> 01:33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:33:06 --> 01:33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm available for, no, I'm not.
01:33:09 --> 01:33:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I know the limits of my own voice and that, that'll, that'll be fine.
01:33:14 --> 01:33:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Anything else before you move on to, we have a lot of feedback again.
01:33:18 --> 01:33:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, let's get into the feedback feedback.
01:33:20 --> 01:33:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's always love playing.
01:33:21 --> 01:33:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:33:22 --> 01:33:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you like to start with body M?
01:33:24 --> 01:33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I always like to start with Bonnie.
01:33:25 --> 01:33:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
01:33:27 --> 01:33:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And she says, dear Marilyn and Sarah, thank you for your fascinating podcast.
01:33:31 --> 01:33:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You're very welcome Bonnie.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:33 [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have thought there could be so many rituals and talk about, but you always find a bunch.
01:33:38 --> 01:33:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Regarding your recent episode titled Halls of Stone, that was episode five.
01:33:44 --> 01:33:59 [SPEAKER_00]: During your discussion of the ship leaving ceremony at the bosons whistle, I was moved by your comments, Marilyn, when you pointed out that this formal farewell was a ritual that allowed the captain and the sailors to maintain their composure and contain their emotions at a time of grief and anger.
01:34:01 --> 01:34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:19 [SPEAKER_00]: She goes on to say, I think Sarah is correct about what Alfara's on, Alfara's on saw in the Palantia, and I enjoyed your discussion about King Doran, choosing a ring that spoke to him and that using that ring is said of the traditional method of singing to the stone, signal danger because it smacks of the machine.
01:34:20 --> 01:34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
01:34:22 --> 01:34:23 [SPEAKER_01]: All the rings were there, of course.
01:34:24 --> 01:34:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.
01:34:25 --> 01:34:30 [SPEAKER_00]: She goes on to say, I also loved your discussion of Keller Brimble's talent being greater than Anotars.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't usually take delight in whacking the fan or a pinata, but Okay, that particular instance, I thought it was appropriate, so I'm definitely.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:50 [SPEAKER_00]: She says, I find your podcast to be insightful and delightful.
01:34:50 --> 01:34:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Keep up the good work.
01:34:51 --> 01:34:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Cheers, Bonnie.
01:34:51 --> 01:34:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, cheers, Bonnie, and we will do our best.
01:34:54 --> 01:34:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Bonnie.
01:34:55 --> 01:35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We always love to hear from you and appreciate all those lovely observations.
01:35:00 --> 01:35:01 [SPEAKER_00]: We appreciate you, Bonnie.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:02 [SPEAKER_01]: We absolutely do.
01:35:03 --> 01:35:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we have some feedback from the delightful Sarah J.
01:35:06 --> 01:35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: We do, shall I carry on?
01:35:07 --> 01:35:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Please.
01:35:09 --> 01:35:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Dear Marilyn and Sarah, I've caught up!
01:35:11 --> 01:35:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I've caught up!
01:35:11 --> 01:35:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you!
01:35:12 --> 01:35:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you!
01:35:14 --> 01:35:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You too have been chatting to me on repeat during this past busy way too busy week.
01:35:19 --> 01:35:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It was good to have you to accompany me through some sluggish real-life events.
01:35:25 --> 01:35:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad Sarah, sorry Sarah, I hope that we gave you some ease along the road.
01:35:31 --> 01:35:37 [SPEAKER_01]: My brain has been full of other things, so I don't believe the following are incredibly insightful, but I'll put them in here in any case.
01:35:38 --> 01:35:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Episode 5.
01:35:40 --> 01:35:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I had the advantage of watching both seasons episodes back to back.
01:35:46 --> 01:35:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So I did pick up on another instance of our photos on showing his fear of death.
01:35:50 --> 01:35:55 [SPEAKER_01]: From Season 1, episode 8, photos on tells the students that they are to have the opportunity
01:35:59 --> 01:36:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Soon he will travel that road that makes an end of any man who walks it.
01:36:04 --> 01:36:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Black flags will fill our harbor.
01:36:07 --> 01:36:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It will be our duty to forge for him a tomb, granting him the immortality in stone that no man, not even the king, can attain in life.
01:36:18 --> 01:36:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely interpreted this as displaying photos on desperate desire for immortality.
01:36:23 --> 01:36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're absolutely right, Sarah.
01:36:25 --> 01:36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we commented on this back in the day.
01:36:29 --> 01:36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But at that point, I don't think he had connected it with the elves in particular, not explicitly, which was what I was, you know, going on to, so tightly when because he started that conversation by saying, you know, they're taunting us by parking us, you know, within sight of this unattainable thing.
01:36:51 --> 01:36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So Sarah goes on as for the hideous events at Nianna's temple, my heart breaks for Elendil
01:36:59 --> 01:37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Elendable leaves that he has lost Isildur and then with Valamidil's death, both of Isildur's good friends are now dead as well.
01:37:08 --> 01:37:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The only saving grace is that Elendil cradles Valandir as the young man dies.
01:37:13 --> 01:37:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It is cold comfort, but comfort nonetheless that Elendil was able to be there for Valandil at the end.
01:37:20 --> 01:37:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike what he believes was Isildur's isolated end.
01:37:24 --> 01:37:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, yeah, good points.
01:37:26 --> 01:37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
01:37:28 --> 01:37:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Episode six, Master versus Servant of the Secret Fire.
01:37:33 --> 01:37:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I now can't remember which podcast I was recently listening to, likely Corey also is exploring over the rings, where they discussed that Tolkien revised Gandalf's word to the Battle of Rage in the confrontation upon the bridge.
01:37:47 --> 01:38:07 [SPEAKER_01]: In the earliest versions, Gandalf said, I am the master of the white flame, and you couldn't find this text in a treason of Eisengard, Chapter 10, Minds of Moria, Sarah very correctly, properly, and helpfully, citing resources, and she says, I'm so glad that Tolkien changed master to servant.
01:38:08 --> 01:38:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't agree more.
01:38:10 --> 01:38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It just turns the meeting on its head and says, yes, this is certainly to ship this is not power over.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:27 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a recognition of power with an empowerment and it makes all the difference to me.
01:38:29 --> 01:38:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I loved your discussion of the different concepts of home held by the harfuits and by the stores, and it struck me that this difference, physical place, as home, compared to home being smaller portable items, is apparent in my extended family.
01:38:43 --> 01:38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: My parents were store-like with deep emotional ties to their home and their homes furnishings.
01:38:49 --> 01:38:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Both my kids and I are each more like the harfuits in the amount of stuff we accept.
01:38:55 --> 01:39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: This so explains the seemingly to me outsized to support my parents tried to mask.
01:39:02 --> 01:39:05 [SPEAKER_01]: When we next generations did not want all of their cherished possessions.
01:39:06 --> 01:39:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, that's difficult, isn't it?
01:39:08 --> 01:39:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is, and I think it may be a function of the way financial pressures have changed the expectation for home ownership.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:21 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think you're going to be in a house for 40 years, then yeah, you're more likely to hang on to stuff.
01:39:22 --> 01:39:26 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're going from rental to rental, you don't want a lot of stuff.
01:39:27 --> 01:39:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it'll only, you know, you go have to haul it behind you in a cart, necessarily.
01:39:31 --> 01:39:34 [SPEAKER_01]: But it will weigh you down in one fashion or another.
01:39:35 --> 01:39:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, really cool that that insight came to you, Sarah, I'm glad.
01:39:40 --> 01:39:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I think she sent us more, didn't she?
01:39:43 --> 01:39:45 [SPEAKER_00]: She did, would you like to carry on with Sarah J?
01:39:45 --> 01:39:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I will.
01:39:46 --> 01:39:52 [SPEAKER_00]: She says, dear Marilyn and Sarah, however did we get to the last episode of the season for your lovely podcast so quickly.
01:39:53 --> 01:39:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I've so enjoyed revisiting rings of power season 2 with you both.
01:39:57 --> 01:39:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you Sarah for being with us as we've done that.
01:39:59 --> 01:40:02 [SPEAKER_00]: We appreciate revisiting it with you as well.
01:40:03 --> 01:40:05 [SPEAKER_00]: She offers two thoughts on episode 7.
01:40:06 --> 01:40:12 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, Saurons are anotars thinking that it's a pity that all things must end.
01:40:12 --> 01:40:23 [SPEAKER_00]: As you've pointed out, Sauron wants to bring order to everything and bringing about that order is hard, bringing about order and maintaining it on a system that is constantly changing and adapting to circumstances,
01:40:24 --> 01:40:25 [SPEAKER_00]: that is a false dream.
01:40:25 --> 01:40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet that seems to be what Sauron is striving for.
01:40:29 --> 01:40:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So it seems to me that even without a lendeele Gilgalaad et al, the fact that living creatures keep adapting does not
01:40:41 --> 01:40:46 [SPEAKER_00]: The large question tumbling about in my head is centered on Sauron's isolation of Keller Brimble.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:53 [SPEAKER_00]: These last episodes showed just how horrific such manipulation can be, to isolate a person is devastating.
01:40:54 --> 01:41:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, perhaps Keller Brimble welcomed being freed from the distractions of other people, as it enabled him to focus solely on his creation.
01:41:03 --> 01:41:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I read this as a cautionary tale, she says, a be careful what you wish for in junction.
01:41:09 --> 01:41:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Without interaction with this Smiths and with the others who presumably help run the city of Aragion, can a brimble becomes dangerously off-balanced?
01:41:18 --> 01:41:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we need our community.
01:41:20 --> 01:41:21 [SPEAKER_01]: we certainly do.
01:41:22 --> 01:41:27 [SPEAKER_00]: At first I thought that such a monofocus was something that only artistic creatives need to be careful about.
01:41:28 --> 01:41:34 [SPEAKER_00]: However, I've known and been myself, someone who loses all track of time when researching some intellectual interest.
01:41:35 --> 01:41:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yes!
01:41:36 --> 01:41:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
01:41:37 --> 01:41:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never done that.
01:41:38 --> 01:41:56 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
01:42:02 --> 01:42:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So no conclusion beyond that, just as mixture of thoughts, if you do end up using any of this edit or a lead as you see fit, no, no, Sarah, we want everyone of your words.
01:42:11 --> 01:42:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm touched.
01:42:12 --> 01:42:17 [SPEAKER_01]: In their purity of thought and clarity of communication.
01:42:17 --> 01:42:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, as always, thank you for those things.
01:42:20 --> 01:42:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
01:42:21 --> 01:42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a couple more shortments here, first from Falco, also known as Philip on Discord.
01:42:28 --> 01:42:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the kind mentioned in your doomed to die episode.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I talked about his show.
01:42:33 --> 01:42:34 [SPEAKER_01]: We did, yes.
01:42:34 --> 01:42:35 [SPEAKER_01]: We did.
01:42:35 --> 01:42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, you found the perfect word that I did not find in describing Galatriel's story arc.
01:42:41 --> 01:42:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Nadir.
01:42:43 --> 01:42:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you, Philip.
01:42:46 --> 01:42:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always fun to be a wordsmith and I'm glad that that word resonated with you.
01:42:52 --> 01:42:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent stuff.
01:42:53 --> 01:42:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Aaron K. Also from the Ring's InRituals Discord channel.
01:42:58 --> 01:43:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been catching up on Ring's InRituals and I'm absolutely loving the new season.
01:43:02 --> 01:43:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And click.
01:43:03 --> 01:43:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:43:04 --> 01:43:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Fantastic insights as always.
01:43:06 --> 01:43:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the unique angle you come to this show from, and it has been a great way for me to get a refresher on the events of season two before the new one hits our screens.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, me too.
01:43:18 --> 01:43:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Great.
01:43:18 --> 01:43:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's exactly what we wanted.
01:43:20 --> 01:43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That was one of our main intentions.
01:43:23 --> 01:43:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, one last comment, Zatoichi also from the Rings of Virtual Discord right below, Aaron's message said, One pod to rule them all.
01:43:33 --> 01:43:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wonderful.
01:43:34 --> 01:43:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take that.
01:43:37 --> 01:43:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be grateful for the attribution, and I'll probably just leave the one right word is.
01:43:44 --> 01:43:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Because in the ruling them all has never been my intention or my design are you in my wish.
01:43:51 --> 01:43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But thank you, Satvichi.
01:43:52 --> 01:43:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Phillip.
01:43:53 --> 01:43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, everybody.
01:43:55 --> 01:43:59 [SPEAKER_01]: For all your wonderful comments from the entire season, because that's it for this episode.
01:43:59 --> 01:44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And for season two, we're friends and rituals.
01:44:02 --> 01:44:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
01:44:02 --> 01:44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though we will not be doing any more recording at this point, you can feel free to still to send us feedback at things and rituals at the Lorehounds.com or on the Lorehounds discord server where we have a special channel set up just for things and rituals.
01:44:18 --> 01:44:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And while I did say we will not be doing any of our recording, this is true, but I can now announce that we will have a bonus episode.
01:44:25 --> 01:44:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yay!
01:44:26 --> 01:44:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yay!
01:44:26 --> 01:44:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Boo!
01:44:26 --> 01:44:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Boo!
01:44:27 --> 01:44:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Boo!
01:44:27 --> 01:44:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Boo!
01:44:27 --> 01:44:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Boo!
01:44:28 --> 01:44:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I did an interview with Philip Menzy's of the words and magic of music in Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power.
01:44:35 --> 01:44:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You can see why I have our time remembering that don't know because on for a point some time.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a wonderful title.
01:44:40 --> 01:44:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It says exactly what you're doing.
01:44:43 --> 01:44:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a lot of fun talking with you.
01:44:44 --> 01:44:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And that episode should be dropping
01:44:47 --> 01:44:48 [SPEAKER_01]: in the next few days.
01:44:49 --> 01:44:49 [SPEAKER_00]: How wonderful.
01:44:50 --> 01:44:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:44:51 --> 01:44:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:44:52 --> 01:45:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And as Marilyn says, please feel free to keep sending us your feedback because we will be doing season three at some point and it would be lovely to start our first episode of season three with some feedback from the end of season do.
01:45:04 --> 01:45:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I like that.
01:45:06 --> 01:45:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that very much.
01:45:07 --> 01:45:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Sarah.
01:45:08 --> 01:45:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So do, do, yes, we live for your feedback.
01:45:12 --> 01:45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Now on the Lorehouse website, there's also a contact form and a voicemail feature you could still use.
01:45:17 --> 01:45:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So look for the contact us link at the bottom of the page.
01:45:21 --> 01:45:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, be sure to check out the other affiliate podcasts supported by the Barovian broadcasting network, such as Dungeons & Do Rags, nevermind the music, and into the West, the podcast about the grades of screen and cinema that have died recently.
01:45:37 --> 01:45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, don't miss John David and Alicia on the main Lohan's podcast.
01:45:43 --> 01:45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: John, David and I will be getting the old Tolkien band back together.
01:45:47 --> 01:45:48 [SPEAKER_01]: This was our origin story, actually.
01:45:49 --> 01:45:52 [SPEAKER_01]: The Lohan's will definitely be covering season three of Rings of Power.
01:45:53 --> 01:45:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though we're not quite sure yet how we're going to handle the first four episode drop, but we'll figure something out.
01:45:59 --> 01:46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can count on us to cover each episode individually.
01:46:02 --> 01:46:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for all of these things are also in the show notes and Sarah will be covering the rings of power season three with Alan Sisto in the real power wrap-up.
01:46:11 --> 01:46:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes I will and unfortunately this season James Tauber can't be with us he's super busy doing let me remember oh yes something small like his Ph.D. Oh then yeah so that's why he can't be with us but instead we have Don Marshall joining us Yes
01:46:30 --> 01:46:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be super fun.
01:46:32 --> 01:46:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.
01:46:33 --> 01:46:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't ask.
01:46:34 --> 01:46:35 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fantastic.
01:46:35 --> 01:46:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:46:36 --> 01:46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: If any of you listeners have never heard and speak before, you are in for a treat.
01:46:41 --> 01:46:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I can confirm.
01:46:42 --> 01:46:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:46:43 --> 01:46:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So our profound thanks for this season to our recording engineer and editor Bob to David and John our producers and to John for arranging our theme music as well as all those who support us along the way.
01:46:55 --> 01:47:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you would still like to support us in the podcast, you can find us on Patreon at patreon.com-slash-the-law-hounds.
01:47:04 --> 01:47:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Subscribers will get access to ad-free versions as well as many other benefits.
01:47:09 --> 01:47:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, then remember, the sun yet shines.
01:47:13 --> 01:47:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, a good thought to leave us on.
01:47:16 --> 01:47:17 [SPEAKER_01]: However, farewell for now.