The Rings of Power - S01E01 - A Shadow of the Past - Rerelease

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Episode 1 of Rings and Rituals, A Shadow of the Past from the Payne and McKay series

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Rings of Power. I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Rivendell.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Sara, shieldmaiden of Rohan.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're delighted that you've joined us. Today we'll be reviewing what we mean by

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: ritual and then applying those concepts to different examples of ritual that we find

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: in this first episode of the TV series. We'll explore them using a set of questions

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to reveal how Payne and McKay depicted the cultures that they were adapting to their series.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Now be sure to get in touch with us. A discussion of two is an adventure, but we'd love to have

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: more voices join us. You can email us at ringsandritualsatthelawhounds.com or you can join our R&R channel

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: on the Lawhounds Discord. We'll include all that information in the show notes.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to say that we are a proud affiliate of the Lawhounds Barovian Broadcasting Network

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: where you will find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, film, books, video games and other

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: stories. Sara, can I just say how excited it was when I said the first episode? I mean,

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we're finally launched and on our way. Hooray. Actually talking about the stuff.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So before we get into it, let's review our process. Firstly, Sara, what do we mean by

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: a ritual? Okay, so a ritual is a repeated action and it's something that's usually intended to recognize

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and or bring about a change. Rituals often have symbolic content, but not always. I mean,

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a ritual can be something as simple as brushing your teeth every morning and every night.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And it can also be a form of making meaning which does not have to be religious or spiritual,

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: but it can be very rooted in culture. Yes, almost always, right? So we're going to keep those particular

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: points in mind as we describe each ritual and then ask the following questions. What is the design of

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the ritual? What is the intent of the ritual? What is the outcome? And most particularly, what does

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it tell us about the culture and the individuals in the culture? Okay, so we're going to take a

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: meat or the tofu for our vegan or vegetarian listeners without the coil sauce. We'll be right back.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're back. Welcome back. We're going to review the ritual elements that we saw in this

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: first episode, but to aid our listeners' memories, we'll begin each section with a synopsis of events.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And please note, we are doing full on spoilers throughout all of these episodes. So if that

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: isn't what you want right now, then go away and binge the entire season and then come back and join

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: us again. So here's the synopsis for the first section. Born in Valinor in the light of the two

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: trees, Galadriel follows her beloved brother Finrod as the Noldor elves go to fight the great

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: enemy Mordgoth and his servant Sauron in Middle Earth. After great losses, Mordgoth is defeated

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: by the Valar with the aid of the Noldor, but Finrod has been killed by Sauron. Galadriel

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: goes on a vengeance quest, defined and kills Sauron. But her obsession in the pursuit over

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: several hundreds of years leads her company to rebel against her. Her High King and her

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: dearest friend Elrond decide Galadriel needs to return to Valinor for healing,

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: even though she has no wish to return. Okay, so there's actually, I think,

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: a few rituals to note just in this opening section, right, Marilyn?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. Please. So what we notice is that, well, first of all, it is obvious that the elves are a

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: warlike culture and they draw their swords to commit to that war. That seems to be a very

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: symbolic gesture. And we also see things like the stacking of helmets. And that the stacking

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: of the helmets seems to be a symbol of these, this is the resting place of all of these soldiers,

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that great big mound of helmets. So it's not just the, you know, like a graveyard, for example,

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's actually taking the helmets which seem to symbolize each person who has been killed

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and stacking them all up together. Yes, I'm sorry. I'm reminded of how Galadriel in her

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: over monologue of the introduction section there, she said we had no words for death.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And so if you have no words for death, presumably you have no rituals for death.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So they kind of have to make that up as they go along, don't they?

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. And this seems to be one of the things that they came up with, if you will.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It happens back to descriptions in the summer only too, of course. But this is different. I don't

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: remember any stacking of helmets. No, I mean, it really reminds me of the non-Athanoid ad.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And the result of that, of course. But yeah, I mean, that point that they don't have

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: any words for death, I think that is incredibly important because of course they don't until,

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, things went wrong, Feanor, I'm looking at you. There was no need for them

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to discuss death. That's not to say there hadn't been death of a sort, of course.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, Feanor's mother I'm thinking of, for example.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. Sure. The separation of the soul and the body, the Feanor and the Roar.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. But it was a different concept because

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the Feanor will exist as long as Ardita exists, which is certainly not a concept that humans

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: have. Yeah. And then the drawing of the swords definitely feels like they're taking an oath at

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: this point, don't you think? Oh, yes. And that reminds me so much of some of the wonderful

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: artwork I've seen by artists like Yenny Dolphin showing the oath of the sons of Feanor,

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that idea of them drawing the swords and all pointing the swords together. And it's like a

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, it is very ritualistic. We're going to war where we are committing to that and

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: we draw our swords together in this moment. It feels a little bit like that.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you keep that in the back of your mind, when we get to the point

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: where Galadriel's company decides they've had it with her, they draw their swords and they lay them

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: down. Yeah. That does feel very symbolic. Yes. And quite ritualistic. I mean, they're not just

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: saying, okay, I'm out of here. I'm done. And they're in a semicircle and it's just very

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: carefully done intentionally done with intention and with purpose to say, okay,

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I've changed my mind. So the purpose of the ritual to demonstrate a change,

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, however simply presented here. Yeah. And I think if we're defining a ritual as like an

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: agreed action between a group of people, which it must be, then this definitely represents

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: something like that. It is an agreed action. It's obviously something that they as a group have decided.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to follow Galadriel anymore. How are we going to show her, not just tell her,

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but show her that we've had it? And I think this seems to be a very agreed action.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think this was something that had been done before or do you think they just

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: came up with it? It felt, obviously, we're looking at the way it's depicted on screen.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It felt like this was something that was an agreed action from before because it seems so smooth and

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so, you know, so immediate. And so easy come to them if you like. This is what we do.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. I without thinking about it had the sense that, you know, this is something

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that other else had done at other times. And you know, it was a known quantity and not just

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: something that they had muttered about of, you know, while they were off together on one side.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And then say, okay, let's do this to drive home our point.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. Yeah, because I think if it had been, they'd all agreed that they were going to say,

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: no, we're not doing it anymore. There would have been more of a sort of spontaneity to the

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the drawing of the sword and the laying them down. So you know, one would do that and then

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the rest would kind of look at each other and go, okay, I'll do that too. But there's none of

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that. Yeah, it seems to me. Oh, is that we're supposed to do now? Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm with you.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to be too coordinated, I think for it to be a spontaneous action.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I could see the stacking of helmets being the first time, but I think,

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, these other things are rituals that have been around with this culture for a while.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And as you said earlier, very much a warlike culture, which, you know, where they get

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that from while they were living in Valid al-Ran peace and so forth. Well, I think

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: we all know the big bad who first planted it in their minds. So yeah, absolutely. But I don't think

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: motorgoth cares that much for ritual. No, you know, likelihood. No, because ritual isn't agreed action.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's he gonna agree with? It is. Well, yeah, my way or else, I suppose. But that's not

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly the agreement, is it? So from that, go ahead. No, I was just going to say from

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that, I was actually going to, I think I just jumped on your line there. And so from there,

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we actually, we come to Elrond, right? And very much not spontaneity. No, no, he's writing this speech.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He's preparing a moment. But the moment he's preparing for is very much a ritual.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But because of what's going to happen, you can see why he's preparing very carefully

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for this ritual. It's a moment. That's a good point, because again, I imagine that

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Elvis had been leaving for Valid al-Norah before this. But this is a big moment. It's a thing.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a statement. Yeah. And not everybody likes the statement that's being made. But

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of writing it himself, Gil-galad has assigned it to his herald, Elrond, and also his

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: ambassador and a few other things like that. I think Gil-galad recognizes one of the things

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that Elrond really possesses is tact. Yes. Yes. And so he's definitely in his

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: as kind of summer mode. Absolutely. Yes. I really like him for that. And then when

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel arrives, and well, first he's told that Galadriel has arrived and he's so terribly excited.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And he comes up to her and he says, Lyndon receives you with grace.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And she responds, with grace I am received. That call response feels very ritualistic.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it does, doesn't it? Yes. Yeah. That's a very familiar form.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It felt a little bit like the Catholic call response. I agree. I agree.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, this thing is said. This thing is said in response to that. But yeah, it's clearly

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: something that it wasn't just, oh, I think I'll say this to Galadriel and Galadriel thinks,

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, I think I'll say this in response. Right. This is clearly something that is done

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: as a ritual upon arriving at Lyndon and then being received, if you like.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And what you say about the familiarity almost with a religious ritual, I'm immediately thinking of

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: peace be with you and also with you. And also with you, yeah. Or also with your spirit or whatever

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever different versions, different denominations have used over time.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. So what about this ceremony for those who returned to Valinor? What sorts of things

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: do we see there, Sarah? Well, apart from anything else, there seems to be a really ritualistic

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: approach to this return to Valinor. And that's actually understandable.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Returning to Valinor is a big thing. And in fact, for the company of elves that have been with

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Galadriel, it's a reward for their actions. So this is a big deal. So it shouldn't surprise

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: us that actually this appears to be a ceremonial moment in which everything is kind of planned out

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: almost like a choreography. We have these elven women who are dressed and I'm going to say almost

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: none like. Yeah, yeah, they're shrouded and they are veiled. And the company receive gilded

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: laurel wreaths. And this is almost like an anointing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, put this upon their heads.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Heroic symbol which carves back to the Greeks, of course, the laurel wreaths.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not enough to be just plain plants. Exactly. It's got to be gold, right? Which

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't really feel like elves as much to me. But these are the gold ore. And I think that's

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: something that the Syrians really want us to understand is that there are different kinds

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: of elves. Yeah, you know, Orondair in the south doesn't get a golden light wreath. He just says,

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, you're done. You can go home now. Exactly. Yeah, the Noldor are, you know,

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the high elves and this is the High King of the high elves. So it's no wonder I suppose that

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, we're not just going to give you a little bus ticket home. We're going to,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, give you this gilded wreath. And if we think about that sort of Romanesque

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding of the gilded laurel, it feels like this is a high reward for high deeds and an

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledgement of who you are in this world if you like it. It's something that denotes your

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: importance. That's what I'm getting at. You are important because you have received this

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: laurel wreath. Yes, and if gold is a connotation of importance, what does that tell us about

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Gil Gellad in his dress, which is not just seen at this ritual, but the way he's dressed all the

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: time? Oh, Gil Gellad is the shiniest in Middle Earth at the moment. I mean, yeah, that cloak.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the man is in head to toe gold lame. He's the swishiest high elf there ever was.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The most kicked back he is when he takes off the laurel wreaths, right?

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the equivalent of Gil Gellad getting into his sweatpants for the weekend. Exactly.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But he is when he's standing in front of them, the way in which he speaks to these elves who are

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioning, which again comes back to our call and response that we noticed earlier.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to being hieratic, it's quite extravagant. Very massive gestures and

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of course, it's Elrond's words, but he's the one delivering them. And they definitely

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: convey this sense of power and authority, graciousness, if not actually condescension in a way.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's the high king. He is. He's the one in charge. He gets to decide what to do. And

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you got to be pretty bold to cross him, which Galadriel figured out and Elrond conveyed

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to her. Indeed. And there's a very strong subtext between he and Galadriel, which is

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think part of the ritual. No, that seems to be a bit off script.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so. Yes. There's just that one moment where you think she's not going to do.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not. No. Really? Is she? No. Okay. Good. She didn't.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Because you can see it. It's humming under the skin. She wants to do something to

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: disrupt that ceremony, but she do not disrupt that ceremony. It's just too important.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. And yet, what does that say about how each of them views the importance of the ritual

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: on the ceremony? I think Galadriel acknowledges that this is a very important ceremony. And you

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: know, even though she doesn't want to go back to Valinor, the soldiers who've been with her,

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: this is a huge moment for them. They are receiving their golden ticket home, literally,

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: from the High King. You know, if she does anything to disrupt this ceremony,

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it actually ruins the moment for them as well. That's a good point. Again, your comments about

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: ceremony being and ritual being in a group as opposed to individual. It's a corporate thing.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. There's plenty of private rituals out there, of course, but we're seeing

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: an individual ritual. What we're seeing here is a group ritual. But what sort of message do you

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: suppose that's sending to everyone left behind? To those who aren't getting the golden ticket

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ceremony boat home, you're not good enough yet because these people have earned it.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. You know, they have done mighty deeds that we are rewarding them for. That's certainly the

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the overall message that's being given with this ceremony. Of course,

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for Gil Gala there's a whole political deal going on underneath it. You know,

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of wants Galadriel gone now because she's causing trouble. And the best way to do that

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is to frame this as a reward and you all get to go home and isn't it marvelous. So that's overlaid on

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it because he's the shiny, shiny High King, but he's also a politician. You get a raise

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and you get a raise and you get a raise and you get a raise and you get a raise whether you like

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it or not. You better take this raise or else. Yeah. And I think there's almost

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: not a moment in which Galadriel can get out of it because that ceremony is like a huge truck

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: rolling over the top of it. You know, it just this is a big thing happening and you are in it. And

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you going to do? And this is this is another aspect of ritual that we didn't really

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: put forward. But it takes a pretty bold individual to be part of a corporate ritual and then

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: bust it up somehow. Oh, yeah. And that's that's the cultural reinforcement piece, perhaps.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Yes. And that connects to the other side of what is accepted cultural ritual and that is

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: cultural taboo. That's kind of like the opposite. These this is the thing that we do. We do this.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We all do this. If you don't do this, you are not we. You are not we exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Which Elrond kind of tells her, yeah, you know, he don't refuse this from your high king. No.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: For one thing it might not ever be offered again. Right. But I'm not sure that would

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: distress her so much but she does seem to recognize that a line would be crossed.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And if she openly defied her high king in front of all these people. And once you cross that

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: line, is there ever any real coming back? You could you know if you cross that line, you can end up

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: no longer being able to access Falunor but also not welcome at the court of your high king. And

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: then who are you? That's again that's part of the you are not part of the we. And to break

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: some of these rituals puts you into the area of taboo. We don't do that. We do this. We

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: don't do that. And what Galadriel eventually chooses to do in breaking the ceremony at the

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know last possible moment. Right. Yeah, that's what we don't do. Which is why it's so shocking.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's think about this whole concept of cultural taboo and so forth in the future. We're going

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: to come to another ritual in which these various same dynamics will be playing out. So let's put

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: a pin in this one. Oh yeah, plenty to come back to on that one. Yeah, I also wonder where the elves

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: found their launderers. You know, I mean, I've never seen so much white cloth in my life. I know

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: they're crafty people. I know they're very good at whatever they turn their hand to but wow.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And all the women who as you say almost look none like all in white and with the way feels

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: do they make you uneasy? Oh, incredibly uncomfortable. I had a lot of conversations

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: about this with people who are watching and I think I even mentioned it on the alternative

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast about the rings of power rings of power wrap up. I was very uncomfortable with the veiled

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and shrouded Elven women. I thought that was that was just not great at all for me. That

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: was not a choice I enjoyed. No, no, I really wondered who they were why they were did they

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: choose to be this where they told this is what they were going to be. They certainly seem to serve

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: ritualistic purposes. But you know the one that we saw who wasn't in the middle of ritual was

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: really kind of snarky. Yeah. So you know how happy was she with her lot in life and having

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to constantly wipe grastings out of her hem of her white dress every night before the next day.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and of course the connotations of white that purity.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Which brings other things along with it. I mean, let's face it, elves live a very,

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: very long time. Imagine being a nun forever. Forever. Yeah.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Forever truly ever. If that is in fact the way they were perceiving that role.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you think Paine and McKay were saying about their understanding of Elvish culture?

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: With this particular knowledge. I think this comes down to their own personal beliefs.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. Yeah. And I think that when we look at all of the episodes, I think we might

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: glean other aspects of their own personal belief system kind of infusing itself into

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the rituals and ceremonies and belief systems of this version of Middle Earth.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my opinion anyway. I don't like that sort of purity culture veiled women kind of aspect at all.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it was not a symbol that I had ever seen associated with elves before.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: No. I mean, if we think about, okay, let's think about nuns, all right.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Their whole purpose is that they are married to God and we have, I suppose, in this primary world,

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: we have many gods because we have many religions. But if we're thinking along the lines of say,

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the Christian religion, we have a very active participation in a church system

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that has a lot of ceremonies and rituals embedded in it. Now if we go to Middle Earth,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien very expressly did not do that. I know. There are no churches in Middle

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Earth. I mean, the only one that we get, which is not a lovely example, is the

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Temple to Morgoth on Numenor where they had human sacrifices. Right.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Wouldn't want to be a nun to that church. Yeah. So the whole idea, I mean, they did look none

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like, but who precisely and how are they? Who are they being a nun for? And how and why?

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because yeah, we know that the elves have this connection to the Valar and therefore through them

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to the idea of Eluvatar. But Tolkien himself very expressly did not have active worship in

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Middle Earth. Well, particularly with the elves, they didn't need to worship.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They could not commit the act of belief because they knew they experienced. Yep.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: They spent time with these Demiurges and okay, they never probably ever saw or heard from Eluvatar.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just a completely different approach and understanding.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need face when you know.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. Exactly. So another possible lens through which to see them is more Arthurian perhaps.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll be talking about Arthur again a bit later on, but you know, a serving maid.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't think we see too many serving maids explicitly veiled. But clearly, you know,

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: they run errands and they take off armor when it's time. And you know, they're very,

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: very service oriented, shall we say. And so your idea about the purity with the white

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe comes in there too. It's almost, it's almost pre-Raphaelite in a way and the clothing

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that the elves who are being honored wear definitely pre-Raphaelite.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Foyums of fabric and flowing this and that and the other thing.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I wonder if those serving women also had to do all the laundry.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can get that the High King has servants. I get that. All right.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But do we need to veil and shroud them? It's the veiling part that really disturbs me,

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say. And we see them later lined up behind the table, the famous table where

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: the Prince Dorene is having his conversation with the High King and really holding his own.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And then some, here's all these serving people, the same women standing in a row,

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: standing the whole time. They do a lot of standing.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. And do they all have to be women really? Do they? What are we saying here?

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Good question.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. You know that makes me twitchy, right?

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm right there with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I just particularly with the whole,

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: again, Arthurian tradition of squires. Right? Yes. Squires serving their knights and their

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: lords and masters and whatever it's really, it's really fascinating how how world builders

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: are conceiving of things and building them and how much that reflects of their own

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: concepts and ideas as you were saying earlier.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I suspect in, I suspect that in this it does reflect Pena McKay's own personal

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: thoughts and beliefs. Right. And I think it's also a chosen way of distinguishing this culture

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: from other cultures. And the rituals that each of them undergo do a lot to help with that.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But why they conceive of elves in this particular fashion and not some other way? I mean,

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an interesting question to ponder. At least I find it interesting. I mean, obviously here

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: we wouldn't be here right now, would we? Exactly. Yes. It is interesting, particularly as it isn't

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: a very Tolkienian. Yeah. You know, you kind of got to say that, don't you? At least.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Or I wonder if this was their notion of what would be Tolkienian?

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Because of all the cat- That overlays their own thoughts, yes.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how elves develop in the second season.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And also the notion that Gilgallad was hiking over all the elves. Yes.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine if you talked to Orofer in the Greenwood,

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: he would have a thing or two to say about this. Oh, I think that's most likely.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And speaking of Greenwood in trees, this is another thing that I found really unsettling.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was ritualistic in the sense of it occurred on a regular basis with meaning it.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We see it in the aftermath of the ritual we've just been talking about. But it's not

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: part of that ritual per se. It's when she and Elrond, when Galadriel and Elrond are in this grove of trees

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: with images of elves who have died. And people have a lot of fun spotting,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: there is Lothian with Juan and all the other famous folks that are familiar to people who

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: know the Silmarillion. These are living trees. Yeah. And they've been carved.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem elvish at all to me. And I at first said that, well,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope the trees cooperated and said yes, I'd be honored to carry the form of Lothian,

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the fair. But Galadriel remembers when the first of them was carved.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just not sure that it's a natural process for this tree.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: No. Already. I have questions because

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the elves don't have monuments. Yeah. They don't because they don't need them.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need the repositories of living memory. So they don't need statues to this elf or

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: monuments to that elf, because they just don't. So yes, okay, Lothian, very important elf,

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: hugely important elf. Her mother by the way, still alive. Let's not forget that.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Do we think they would really create these statue monument type remembrances?

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't see that anywhere else. That's not to say that there aren't sculptors amongst

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the elves because there are, we know there are. But they don't make statues of each other.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't make memorials as you were saying. And now I'm thinking of the

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: text about Lothian that comes from Lord of the Rings, where I can't remember the speaker.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it was Ergon saying and so of all the elves, Lothian is the only one who has died

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: indeed and left the circles of the world. So you could argue none of those other elves and

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: all those trees actually died. Right. You know, because they yeah, their physical body may

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: have perished in Middle Earth at some point, but because of serial longevity that is not death.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Right. Maybe they're in Mandos still who knows and we know at least one who probably

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: is never going to leave Mandos. Oh, he's on the naughty step in the back corner.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. Wearing a pointed cap on occasion I think.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, so again, it's the line of trees, the double row of trees and the open path

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_00]: very much like a cathedral. Oh, yes. And then we walk into the cathedral and here are the images of our

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: saints. It does feel a little bit more Catholic than Tolkien. It really does. It really does. And

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel saying I imagined that one day I would be among them.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, she actually has this sense of they'll put a carving up to me someday.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. The piling up of the helmets seem to me to be almost an instinctual gesture.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a recognition of that of a moment and of the sacrifice that people have made.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. But it's not a tradition at that point. This has clearly become a tradition and it just

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: felt strange to me. Yeah, I agree.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, before we move on to our next example, what did you think of the music for that? What do you

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: remember of the music for the actual ritual itself? Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to say out loud,

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: straight away, by the way, I love Bear McCreary's music across this entire season. It is a

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: thing of beauty. It is glorious. And there are some moments and we'll get to some of these

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: moments where the music just makes the moment. It's wonderful. With this particular scene,

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: we've been talking about how it feels almost like entering a cathedral and that kind of

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the kind of music you expect it to be the background to this sort of scene. And I do think

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: he gives us that actually almost him like in its movement through the scene.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And you have traditional European instruments. You have strings and I think there's some brass in

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: there too, and the rising and falling of the emotional peaks of things. As you say,

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: abocative of religious practices perhaps, but it underlines the importance of the moment,

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the joy of the moment. And then I think we go directly from that final view of them with

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the ocean on the dramatic listener. Again, the next thing you know, we're getting fireworks.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So clearly celebratory as well. But it's not diegetic. It's not music they're making.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's what the movie makers have chosen to have us listen to as a reflection of this culture and bring

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: up from us whatever associations we have with that kind of music. And it does, as it is meant to do.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It is meant to give us that sense of this emotional moment. And there are moments later on

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in the series where we do get diegetic music, of course. And some of those moments are just

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's one in particular I'm thinking of that I'm really looking forward to talking about

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: later on. But here, Bear McCreary's music does exactly what it's designed to do. It brings us

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: into the moment and it makes us feel what the elves who are on that boat heading off to

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Valinor are supposed to be feeling at the moment uplifted. This is a glorious moment.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a ceremony that celebrates that this is happening. And then we get the fireworks

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: going on because woohoo. But it does exactly what it's designed to do.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Triumphal comes to mind. Yeah. And a sense of accomplishment. And I too absolutely adore

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: the music that Bear came up for this. When I heard the first tracks that were coming out

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that were basically statements of each individual theme within A and a B and back to the A,

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: no great traditional form. And I thought, well, that's nice. That's okay. Yeah.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Seems a little plain if you will in terms of presentation. Well, when you start listening

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to the soundtrack of the actual film and you see the incredible way with which he uses

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: these themes, they become like motifs and he weaves them in just so skillfully.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And that to me is what really highlights both his skill as a musician and the closeness with

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: which he has been working with the filmmakers and everybody else to definitely enhance the

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: experience for all of us. I agree. And in that sense, it reminds me very much of the job

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that Howard Shaw did with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films, exactly the same thing,

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: themes for the different cultures, different like motifs, all of these things that were woven in so

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: beautifully. And I think that Bear McCreary did an absolutely fantastic job. You know,

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: say what you will about we had Wagner who definitely was not a nice human being on many levels.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: His creation of that concept of the light motif has really stuck with us and is so serviceable

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in a combination of visual as well as auditory experience, which is of course what he had in

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: mind when he created it in the first place. Yes, it's nice that there's something about him that's

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: laudable. So anything else about this particular event or showing move on to the next one?

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we can move on to the next one if that's okay.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. So if you would please read our next synopsis.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because we are in the Wilderlands and the Harfuts are about to begin their annual harvest

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: fest and their migration. Saddock, their trailfinder and some of the wise women are concerned with

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: strange omens on earth and in the skies. But Norrie is happy to pick Blackberries and wonder

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: about the world beyond their familiar wanderings. Yes. So what I had in mind here is not exactly

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: ritual per se, but it's I think it's a very strong image when you see Saddock, their trailleader,

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: followed by three older women all dressed in black and wearing black hoods.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm reminded of Odin and the three Norrins because Odin is the wanderer

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and of course Saddock has to lead their wanderings and the three Norrins are the ones who

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: speak of the fates of each human being. There's one who spins the thread and one who measures it

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and one who cuts it not unlike the Greek mythology of course. And certainly Saddock

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: serves as the wise one of their group. So did you did you see anything like that?

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very noticeable isn't it that you have Saddock the leader and you have these three wise

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: women who are with him. And I think that although we don't get a lot of ritual as such or

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: ceremony in this particular introduction to the Harfuts, this is the beginning of that

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: because actually the Harfuts do have a lot of ritualistic behavior. They do have ceremony

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: very, very much so and so this is kind of the beginning of it where we see that

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we get that hint that they are a culture that does have those things.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course one of their most important rituals of all is their migration.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. And so we're introduced to that idea now that these are wandering people

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but not wandering without any particular sense of purpose. They have very specific places they

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: go at specific times and they recognize that they've written it down in books. So they have a tradition

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of handed down knowledge and information and they follow it one might say almost ritually.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, very much so yeah because again here is an agreed action. This is what we do. We

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: all leave at this time of the year because we will then end up at this place at the perfect

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: time to harvest these particular foods because this as you say is a wandering people. They don't

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: cultivate their own foodstuffs. They move to where those foodstuffs are at different

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: points in the year so they need to do that. This is what these kind of traveling peoples

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: have done since time immemorial is move from place to place. I mean they carry their homes with them

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to make sure they can do that. So yeah this is what their culture does.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm thinking back to your earlier comment about the taboo space.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. We already see hints of nori wondering what it's like outside of this ritual.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. If you will. Yeah and that makes her different which is difficult when survival of your culture

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of your group depends on everybody pulling together at the same time and doing the same thing.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have somebody who's you know going outside of that that can cause trouble

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and nori is definitely that kind because it is not usual for these half-oots to wonder about what's

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: going on outside of what it is that their people do. And you can see that Sadak doesn't respond too

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: well to the notion of anybody thinking outside the box. Right or Mautagold nori's mother who

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: basically tells her you know we rely on each other. We have each other and we are free of an

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: awful lot of the cares that other folks who live in different ways have. And I know she doesn't

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: say it in this particular scene but with her famous line you know the tallest sunflower gets

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: snipped. Yes. Only it wasn't a sunflower I don't know what it was but anyway we'll come to that

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in the future. But interesting ways of corralling and maintaining your culture you know

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: establishing the boundaries and you know patrolling them. Yes. Making sure that they come.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So what do you remember about the musical messages that we get for the half-oots?

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well at least to start off with we do get a lot of that kind of joyful irrepressible

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of idea of who they are until we get the scary moments of course. Right. Right. But we do get that

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: sense of them being free spirited, free hearted that they you know they live together off the

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: land it's a community I think the sort of like again light-hearted notes behind it show us that

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a happy people. And most of the music that you hear both diagetic and non-diagetic

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: is with instruments made of natural materials. Yes. So you're not going to get any you know brass

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: instruments for example you've got drums of different materials you've got you know pipes that are

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: either hulled out wood or possibly made with clay I think the little pipes that

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Marigold uses just to signify all you know all clear looks to me like it was made of clay

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know for that purpose presumably. So that's one thing very rhythmic. Yes.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like dance. Very rhythmic and like dance because they are always in motion I like that. And

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: interestingly also very much like a lot of the ethnic music what Westerners would call

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: ethnic music but in terms of their rhythms you hear one two three one two three four one two three

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: one two three four five it's it's that unexpected kind of rhythm shift and the melody that they're

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: composed is very very close to a melody from Algeria which you could hear on

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: LaBona CD called Sojourn's. So when I first heard the melody I thought I know that that's

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: quick but don't it's very very familiar to me and it just took me a long time but I finally figured

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: out okay it's that melody. Oh that's wonderful. Slightly slightly rearranged rhythmically but

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah so that was a lot of fun. So there again you know simplicity it's a single line

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not harmony piled on harmony and lots of fun ways to make rhythm to go along with it.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But that makes sense for the people doesn't it you want simple not simplistic simple music

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that could be made with handmade instruments out of natural materials and also a tune that is

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: either to remember because you're not writing it down anywhere and you want to pass it on to others

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know if you actually have a song that needs to be something that is memorable

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and it will be sung over and over again so it needs to have all of those sorts of elements

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to it and I do think that the music that we get along with the Half-Foot does that.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah yeah it is easily felt in the body. Yes so an embodied kind of music that you

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: can carry with you wherever you go and as you say it doesn't necessarily have to be written

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: down I don't know if Sadak has notes in his big book of okay for harvest festival do this but

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we can figure that out as we go along to the next time.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything else for the Half-Foot at this point? I think that we're done with the Half-Foot at

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: this point because it is just a glimpse of them isn't it it's really true for us to get a little

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: bit of context on them and be introduced to Nori. Yes also the contrast between their culture

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and the culture of of Anonbor. Oh yes extremely different. Yes yes indeed.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay so shall I look at the next synopsis? If you would please. Okay so in the Southlands

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the silver elves are still guarding the descendants of the humans who followed Morgoth in the wars

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: hundreds of years ago. Arondir one of the elvish watchers loves Bronwyn a human healer

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: upon learning that the High King has declared the wars over and calls the elves to end their watch

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Arondir goes to tell Bronwyn they're leaving but both are distracted by a very sick cow which

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have been grazing at the next town over. Okay so do we have any ritual elements here at all Merlin?

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: No not this not in this section but just to keep the continuity of the synopsis in order

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so that people can follow us along. Okay so here is the next chunk of the synopsis. In Lindon

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Gilgallad's realm Elrond learns that the High King knows that Sauron is still present even though he

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: told Galadriel otherwise on the ship returning to Valinor the warriors are relieved with their

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: armor and weapons. Galadriel reluctantly yields up her brother's dagger which she had kept with

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: her all this time. As the ship draws near the Undying Lands a meteor streaks across the sky and

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: across the view of all the peoples we have seen so far plus a family of ends. As the meteor lands

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: near Norty's folk Galadriel dives into the sea having realized that she is not yet ready to

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: return to Valinor. Okay well this bit much like the first bit on the elves contains a lot of

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: ritual because it's still I think part of the ceremony that we were looking at in the first part

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still the same ceremony it's just that they're now on the water right? Good point good point.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay so you were talking earlier about when we were talking about the veiled elven women

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you were saying perhaps we could read this as being very Arthurian and of course this trip

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: across the Sundering Seas is quite Arthurian and it's also very ritualistic. Yeah yeah the whole

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Arthur crossing the ocean after he has been received a mortal wound from Mordred who actually died

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_00]: being escorted by women on a ship right crossing a body of water to a place that is not of this

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_00]: world altogether though it sort of is in order to receive healing and a sense that he will return

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_00]: one day now we don't necessarily get that from the elves but in a sense I suppose you could say

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel returns to the astonishment of a few elves you know towards the end of the season.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_00]: The gestures are very ritualistic and again hieratic that kind of almost priestly

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: disrobing the symbol of we are removing your garments of war and your weapons of war right

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and of course that's where Galadriel gets a little antsy and they're still in white they're still

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in white it's just sort of you know just a very flowy drapey kind of thing and a lot of people

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_00]: called it the nightgown which you know they're not wrong it sure looks like one. It does look

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: there you go there you go and so then the light shining from the west right you know the west

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: is traditionally the place of the ancestors and the deer departed I mean certainly with your

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: knowledge of Welsh mythology and so forth you could talk about this far more effectively than I

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: could but the although I guess is it for the Welsh that for some the land of the ancestors

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: is the north rather than the west? I think we look to the west. That's what I thought too yeah

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what I thought there are some who do but it's not it's not the Welsh and then the birds fly out

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember from the watching the trailers and seeing this moment it was so moving

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and and they're singing the birds are singing so again music as part of ritual expression

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_00]: very important to very effective I think and earlier we had heard Elrond talk about

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: what he had heard about those who returned to Valinor there as a song

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: that they know in their hearts they've always known and as they approach Valinor

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: they hear it and they start to sing it themselves right so clearly this is

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: ritual in the sense that it is a story that has been handed down a knowledge that all share

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: jointly and some get to experience and so this is what we see here right and it all feels like

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's almost like a ritual cleansing before you enter paradise kind of idea being stripped of

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: all of your accoutrements of war because you cannot enter Valinor with a knife at your belt

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: probably not really but okay but yeah it's that it's almost like heavens gates are opening

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but you have and I thought this was kind of a nice call back to the words that we hear

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in the Jackson films it's Gandalf who says these to pip in before you know the storm breaks

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but actually in the book it's Frodo and his dream and the rain clouds roll back and

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you get the light and it's I think it's pointing back to that moment

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and all turns to silver glass etc. Yes I mean it's beautiful beautiful language in the book

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's absolutely glorious and I think this is what they were trying to go for here

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is that idea that Valinor is otherworldly yeah whilst being sort of ish maybe part of our will

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but there is a barrier between eventually yeah yeah they're not really clear in in this series as to

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_00]: where they're not those barriers have been established no they had not been in in in the original text

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_00]: they were not established no because no one's still up there it hasn't been

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: clung yet we may not have seen it yet at this point but it's there yeah but there is there is a bit of

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: a barrier in that there's this sort of fog or mist or rain cloud or whatever that has to kind of part

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: like a set of curtains yeah so there is a bit of a barrier there I mean it's not like you've got

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to say the password at the gate or anything although maybe the ritual singing is part of

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the password that's an interesting idea much nicer than Avisa I think

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot easier to get I think so if you're an elf anyway lot less paperwork involved yes

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely yeah definitely definitely okay so um after we get this sort of rolling back of the

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: rain clouds we get this light shining upon them again it feels very ritualistic doesn't it

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that yes you are now being bathed in the light of Valinor and it's also glorious and also beautiful

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we get the disruption of the comet and that disrupts the ceremony now so do they actually

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_01]: see the comet on the boat is my question um I thought that it was spotted by Galadriel but you

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: can correct me see I can't remember that specifically so listeners please write in and tell us

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_00]: yes we could be wrong at what point did it happen and you know did she see it I just I

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: my memory of her is she was so focused on her struggle and then she was distracted by her

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: second in command whoever he was you know saying come hold give me your hand and you know

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: because he could tell she was having yeah second second thoughts and third thoughts

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so I don't know I just that they the way they filmed it she hits the water at the same instant that

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the meteor hits the earth that's that is very vivid in my mind but um I don't know maybe maybe we can

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_01]: issue a clarification in our next yeah absolutely the important thing of course is that uh Galadriel

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: does not complete the ritual right the others on the boat do

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and they still about the failed women I mean do they turn around and come back

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I do too I do too I mean again when I was seeing the um the teasers and the trailers

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know all these different pieces being pushed back and forth and we see at some point

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you know this disaster at sea and bits of boat sticking up and monsters swimming around and everything

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought maybe they were going to show that the ship was denied passage

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and this sea monster came along and destroyed it maybe I was in a negative space at the time or

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00]: something anyway that would have been interesting though and my first question was what about

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: those serving women what happens do they die too I mean come on you may not want this boat to

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_00]: come back to Valinor but surely there are more compassionate ways of just demonstrating that

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: right I don't know I think the serving women grab an ore and go we're going to Valinor we're going

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_00]: right now or something or something I mean at the very least I hope they all know how to swim

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah no my idea is that they just sail back on the next boat to Middle Earth and

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00]: or maybe maybe they get rewarded you know they tear off their veils and say yes oh thank goodness

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_01]: we can get rid of this awful shroudy thing yeah um but I mean if we take it as the boat just slides

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01]: on through and you know the rain cloud shuts behind them and the monster can't get in or whatever

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the ritual is complete although it's been slightly disrupted for them by Galadriel not

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: participating fully the rest of them complete the ritual we have to assume I suppose

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: um that they do reach Valinor and that's kind of it but for Galadriel she does not complete the

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_00]: ritual and that must be unheard of I would think so I would think so um I mean Galadriel is an

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: exceptional elf from beginning to end we know this yes from both the the series and from the

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: books but she has enough self-knowledge to know that she cannot truthfully complete this ritual

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean she talks about you know what am I supposed to do with you know Elrond has said well you can

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: leave you know the war the conflict of darkness behind you she said what am I supposed to do

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: with the one that's inside me mm-hmm yeah and it is interesting that she doesn't trust

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that there is healing in Valinor even for that you know I really would love it although I'm sure

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: this isn't going to happen because I don't think they would have the rights I would love to see her

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: have a conversation with Niennor excuse me not Niennor Nienna good good don't talk to Niennor no

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: no don't do that no no no don't go there no with Nienna you will get a sensible word out of

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_00]: amidst the weeping probably not but with Nienna pity and patience and how to grieve

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Galadriel knows a lot about that and I think that's why she is so conflicted

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and why she clings to that dagger because nobody has given her any notion of how to do this

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they've never had to grieve before so again how do they learn to do that well if you stuck around

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in Valinor I suspect that that would be part of Niennestas yeah and the argument of course is that

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: all right her brother Finrodus died but dying does not mean the same for elves if she goes back

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to Valinor is he not going to be sitting by that tree waiting for her or the very least in

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Mandoz Hall yeah exactly and a lot of listeners I've heard a lot of listeners in a lot of podcasts

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: point this out and say no why didn't she want to go back she could see Finrodus again she could see

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you know her father and all the rest of it so there is some the some form of compulsion

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: responsibility um it again in the texts she is too proud is what we get mostly you know she

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_00]: wants she doesn't want to be confined to one small island she wants her own realm to rule to lead the

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: order yes and that has been it sorry I was gonna say first and second age Galadriel she is a warrior

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_00]: she absolutely is she absolutely is and not only that but she looks upon the doors of the

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00]: warrior's eye you know to see oh here's here's some soldiers that I could really a general's eye

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I could definitely make some make some changes with with this group if they're willing to follow me

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so but in this instance what they're presenting us is she feels her task isn't done perhaps

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: she can't let go of the dagger I mean that's a really crucial piece of it for whatever reason

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe she doesn't understand herself which is what makes a certain sacrifice at the very end of

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the first season all the more pretentious and to my mind a sigh of the real change that she is

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: beginning to undergo mm-hmm after all she's been through yes but at this point I'm afraid that

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: although we don't see it demonstrated as much perhaps I do think that vengeance is still one

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of her strongest drivers yes yeah at one point she said to Elrond when he says put up your

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: sword she says without it who am I to be that is bleak very and that's what she's taking into

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Valinor you want to talk about being an outsider yeah you can't take that into Valinor almost

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to the point of being taboo unless Nian or someone similar would come along and say let's go take

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: a walk by the river and head to Lorian's gardens and you know actually million you know

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: because she was very close to me Leon in the first stage at least textually but again I don't think

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: we're gonna see a million in this series that seems unlikely which is too bad yeah but who knows

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: who knows what we'll get it's not like they've given us any ideas about the second series no

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they haven't I've seen other really absurd ideas which I think have origins in something other

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: than definitely other than well I think there has an origin in someone's wild imagination but

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: or somebody who loves stirring pots oh yes probably the with the memory biggest possible wooden spoon

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: so musically you know you're talking about how it that the reminders of you know the

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: clouds parting and the heavens opening the music is vocal yes the focus point of the music

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: is the singing and the human voice and in all the different presentations I can think of

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: this seems to be the most popular method of musically representing the elves

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a wonderful callback to the music of the iron ore oh yes this is what created the world

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the original choir the original choir and the original song and it is still being sung

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and who would know that song better than the elves right actually been in valley nor

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: well I suspect the elves who even the avarii I must have some sense of it

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: in their minds and so we get this beautiful beautiful melody I will I will make a confession here

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: whenever I'm having trouble falling asleep at night I hear that singing in my head I just let

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that pieces play as it were in my mental CD player over and over and over oh there's nothing

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong with that it is beautiful music yeah and interesting that she can't accept it

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that she leaves the ritual unfinished and I'm here to tell you as someone who has done rituals

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not good to leave partway through no it's it's it can be dangerous and I mean depending

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: on what the ritual is but the feeling of incompletion the feeling of you know loose ends dangling down

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of something being broken off it's it's really it's not it's not a good thing

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: damaging to the psyche I would imagine at the very least at the very least and yet

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: think of the psychic strength that she exhibited rightly or wrongly

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: by backing away from all that literally reclaiming her weapon literally and diving into the water to

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: do the largest olympic swim ever yes the olympic swim so you know very very strong will must be

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because she also I mean she is defying her hiking as well as breaking the ritual it there's

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: all kinds of ramifications potentially for this and as you mentioned before um what does that do to

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: her company do you suppose hmm how are they going to feel well they've already in a way you could say

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: they already rebelled against her because they decided they could not do what she wanted them to do

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: anymore so I think that they may well have been a bit of a sundering already yeah yeah but

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you can see that the the other elf whatever his name is um cares enough about her that yeah he reaches

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: his hand out to her and says come on you know take my hand yes he knows her and well enough to know

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that she's about to leave them and uh tries to stop her yeah that's a great point so

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: even in their refusal they still had this sense of connection yeah yeah which has to say

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: something about her as a commander I think driven as she was to the point of you know exhaustion and

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and severe damage perhaps to to some of their well they did follow her for a very long time

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's one of the hardest things to convey in this series isn't it

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that they had been hunting for hundreds of years yes so it's not like they got fed up after a week

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in the snow no they really had been there for a very very long time they followed her they'd

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: fought with her they you know hunted with her so they've been together for an extremely long period

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: of time as you say that's very hard to convey in a tv show and they protected each other

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: which it may be why that the second in command elf was reaching out to her

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to try to protect her because he believed that in fact she was in need of healing

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that valinor could provide yeah I like that yeah so how would we sum up the kind of cultural

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: information we've received from these rituals in the first episode hmm well elves definitely love

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: ceremony very much and formality uh-huh um a form of courtesy um more like a courtesie again

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm back to the Arthurian legends and and courtly behaviors and that sort of thing um they're hierarchical

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: some of them are hierarchical you know it's not enough to be king but you have this almost

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you know ritualistic leader function um I'd say they're very good at it oh yes very effective

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: all had a long time to practice fair point fair point yeah you wonder how many boats have gone off

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: before this one indeed yeah I can't imagine this is the first one because they know what they're doing

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: here this is a it looks like a well practice ceremony yeah because as we said earlier um

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it is clearly a formula so it's not a spontaneous creation therefore it has happened before

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and may well happen again we'll see your thoughts yeah um I think you're absolutely right on the

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the elves um it's not that the half-foot don't have ritual because they do but they're not as formal

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: not as laid down in the same way as the elvish rituals are um the the rituals are also for

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: different reasons um that the settled nature of the elves in lindon means that they've got the

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: time to have and the space to have these sorts of ceremonies um whereas for the half-foot a lot of

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: their rituals revolve around their survival their community uh their movement so it's a very different

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: attitude I think towards ritual for them yes it's very interesting to contrast the two cultures

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: one is very fixed and one is very mobile right so you're necessarily going to have a different

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: attitude aren't you yeah and yet the major ritual that we see for the elves so far is about motion

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it is about travel it is about going away but maybe that's why it's such a big ceremony because

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it's such a big thing yes it's very much a break in the traditional traditional form yeah

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah the half-foot um earthy is a word that comes to mind yeah um

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and simple as you said not simplistic

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but can you imagine he imagine gill gallop cracking a joke in the middle of his ceremony

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: not so much so I think the half-wits approach is is a lot more joyful and yeah relaxed I mean

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: they do have their limits they do I was gonna say that yes they're not it's not that they're

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: not strict about their rituals because actually in many ways they are just as strict because a lot

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of their rituals are to do with community and survival right and stepping outside of the ritual

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: can mean danger to the community that's a very different thing to breaking ritual for the elves

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: which is yeah um it's highly symbolic whereas for the half-wits it's really about survival

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a that's a really great point I really like that and I'm thinking of

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: a ritual that we're going to see of the half-wits which was in fact the whole reason why I

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: wanted to do this podcast in the first place get there when we get there um that is disrupted

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and there are definitely consequences from that um yeah indeed so you're right it you know ritual

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: is important to the culture doing it regardless of what it looks like or how it's expressed

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: yes I agree any other thoughts no I think that's it from me for this episode

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: okay I think it's it from me too so listeners please write in and let us know what you think

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: any suggestions you might have for rituals for us to look at and anything else that you want to

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: share with us we welcome your feedback at rings and rituals at the lorehounds.com

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