Oneshot - Nosferatu (2024)

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[00:01:56] Hello and welcome to the Lorehounds. Your guides to dark screens and dark souls. I'm John. I'm Alicia. I'm not even going to attempt. I'm John. You've already got a sick voice. And this is our dive into the dark world of Nosferatu. We'll start with our spoiler-free takes for any of you still considering whether this movie is for you.

[00:02:23] And then before we leave the spoiler-free zone, we'll drop a little Nosferatu primer. Where did this story come from? How is it related to Dracula? And how many movies do the completionists need to catch up on? Then, after our spoiler warning, we'll talk through the highlights and dramatically low lighting of the new Robert Eggers twist on the tale, focusing on key characters and moments in the film. Stick around to the end for a preview of what's coming up on the Lorehounds this week and next.

[00:02:53] Well, let's transition everyone. This is Alicia's outline, but I'm following the leader here. It says that I'm supposed to transition. So I'll move us across the continent of Europe. Spoiler-free hot take section. By boat. By boat, of course. We have to move by boat. And that's just standard vampire rules. That's not even a spoiler. Yeah, except aren't they not supposed to be able to cross water? It's confusing about the water thing.

[00:03:17] I've seen the cross the water thing done the same way as in the movie other times. We can talk about that when we get there. This is from Dracula. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I don't know. I don't know. It's a fictional thing. We can make up rules. It's okay. As we go along, make up the rules. If you can give me a sparkly vampire, I can have my Nosferatu. That's exactly right. But I will argue that the sparkly vampire is an evolution of the Bela Lugosi version.

[00:03:47] Okay. Okay. All right. Well, it says I'm supposed to go first. So I guess I'm going to go first so I don't go distracted. Oh yes, please tell us your hot takes. I'm going to tell you that I loved this movie. Spoiler-free, of course. I loved this movie. I thought it was excellent. I see a lot of people on the internet saying like, oh, it was too slow. It took forever for anything to happen. And all I can say is you'll need to get off TikTok. And I love TikTok.

[00:04:16] I'm sad that it's probably going away by the time this episode airs. But I think we as a society have forgotten how to like experience dramatic tension when it's a slow burn and Robert Eggers knows how to do the slow burn. I think I think we're going to get into Robert Eggers in a minute. But you know, I think the which is probably the best horror movie ever made. I will say that full stop. And I just think that this is his style. I did not like the Northmen.

[00:04:45] And so I love the Northmen. Okay. All right. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. But that's why I was nervous going into this. I really like the subject matter. I never seen the first Nosferatu, but I had seen a lot of trailers. It looked really great. I love the Gothic horror vibe that he was going for. And so going into this, I had high expectations and it exceeded it. I thought the visuals were amazing. I was really impressed by by by Johnny Depp Jr. I cannot. What's her name? Lily Rose.

[00:05:14] Lily Rose. Thank you. Johnny Depp Jr. Lily Rose Depp did a fantastic job. Uh, and in the rest of the cast did a fantastic job. I mean, you have, uh, the, the same guy who does the dad and the witch as the doctor here, he does an amazing job and you wouldn't even, you, he doesn't stand out. None of the characters stand out in a way that's distracting. I should say. Right. They all fit their characters as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:42] Except I think that the friend, the friend husband has iPhone face. I do. iPhone face. Actually, I didn't, I knew he was in this film. It's Aaron Taylor Johnson. I knew he was in this film and I actually forgot when I saw him because he looks so different to me from, you know, where I've seen him and other things like he's just in Craven that came out. Not that I've seen it yet. Okay. Okay.

[00:06:10] And, and listeners, if you're wondering what I mean by iPhone face, I mean, it looks like a person who has seen an iPhone, like does not feel like he belongs in a period piece, but I think he did a good job anyway. I don't think there was a bum performance in the entire film. The special effects were great. Nosferatu himself was really creepy. Could have done without the mustache. I honestly could have done without the mustache. But both accurate to history and the novel. Well, but I, I just could have done without it. I just didn't like it. Okay.

[00:06:39] I didn't like the mustache, but that was my one critique of the movie. That's my only critique of the entire movie. Okay. John, you want to give your, your hot takes next? I love this film. Um, I thought Orlok was fantastic. It just, uh, the character and the physical aspect of the character. So imposing and yet so decrepit at times.

[00:07:06] So when we, we got to see a fully upright Orlok was like, Oh, this is nuts. So I thought it was really, um, really well done. And you know, welcome to phone just keys. He's, he's just amazing. He, he really is.

[00:07:33] You know, he's, I just love his, his whole character behavior in this movie. Um, so I think it's really, just like a, uh, you know, this guy who knows things, but is, uh, just a little bit unhinged. Um, so maybe what he knows isn't really what he knows. It's just, just a great portrayal. Just a great character.

[00:08:01] Um, we love imagine this, right? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Um, so everyone was really, the film was just really well acted. Um, and I thought the tension, I don't get the folks who say it took too long. Um, I agree with you. I think we, we are now used to having things sped up, right? Mm-hmm . Where the slow burn is really, you know, like, Oh my God, when is the action going to happen?

[00:08:32] The action was happening. You know? It was all around us. The tension was all around in the film. You know, there was not a moment that I felt like any type of safety was in the audience. It was a lot of fun for any of the characters. Yeah. You know? It didn't feel safe. It didn't feel like, Oh, when is something going to happen? It felt like something was going to happen almost at every waking moment of the film.

[00:09:01] So that's a great point, John. I think, you know, as we, you know, this is primarily a channel where we cover TV and we're always like, who has plot armor, but really nobody had part of our plot. Yes. Yes. Yes. So truly, um, I really liked the film. I think, I think folks who enjoy horror, who enjoy, you know, just being suspense and suspenseful theater mode. We're really like this movie.

[00:09:30] Um, so yeah, that's where I'm at with it. What about you, Alicia? Yeah. I, so I, this is like really in my wheelhouse. So, um, I'll keep it light because I'm going to be kind of talking about it. Like as we go through this whole primer thing, but, um, I have to look at it as an evolution of what has come before. And as that, I just think it was perfect. I mean, I, I, I have to be honest that I am a bit of a Robert Eggers fan girl in the sense

[00:09:59] that I don't think everything he does is perfect, but I do. I've watched, he has a small catalog. I've watched it all. And, um, it's clear that he and I are very interested in the same things. The very interested in the same filmmakers of history, very interested in the same, you know, like one of his first short films is a post story adaptation, you know, like definitely this guy and I have the same taste. So I'm naturally inclined to like what he does.

[00:10:26] And this is combined with, I don't know, Dracula has been a fascination of mine since, um, I was read it as a teenager, um, and him too. And, and that comes out and just his attention to detail, you know, like for instance, he worked with a linguist to, um, to what is it? The Dracian, uh, language he helped, like they helped sculpt out this dead language that they would have

[00:10:56] spoken at the time to use within the film, just all of these attention to details. It's just so satisfying to watch his films. And yeah, we're going to talk more about the cinematography, but, but they always hit. Um, I have a question though. So my theater experience was I kept having to move it because of scheduling conflicts and such. Um, so, and my theater kept selling out. So I eventually saw it on a smaller screen that didn't have like the best contrast.

[00:11:26] And sitting too close. Um, so it was a packed theater, but it was early in the morning. So people weren't really that reactive. And so it was not the ideal watch experience, but I still loved it. But I'm curious, what was it like when and where you guys were watching? Um, small, not, not too, not a lot of folks. Um, and I, I'm no, I'm normally not into the, the other theater goers experience. Mm.

[00:11:55] So I'm not like, I don't get the feels when everybody else is like, yeah, you know, I'll jump you or anything like that. I'm, I'm, I'm total opposite. So I'm the, I'm the guy who's like, shut up everybody. Let's watch the movie. Oh, but yeah, it was kept mine. It was very quiet and, um, understated. Hmm. Yeah. I had a similar experience. I went out 6 PM on a Friday and it was still fewer than 10 people. I think. Okay.

[00:12:25] And it was, it was, you know, people silent through the movie. Didn't hear a single reaction. Yeah. It felt like, and this is often, I always think of this as a Dutch thing, but I guess not. Well, you know what the Dutch do like dark humor. So it felt like at first I was the only one laughing at certain things. And then by the end of the movie, people were especially laughing at, at, uh, William, Willem Dafoe. Hmm. He was fun. Yeah. He was great. Mm hmm.

[00:12:52] So the reason why we're, we're going, we're releasing this sometime around January 21st is as of the time of recording, the word on the street is that that is when it is coming out on video on demand. Oh, wow. So yeah, it's, it's, uh, that's a pair. That's the rumored, uh, digital release date, but not yet fully confirmed by focus features. So it might shift by a few days, but it'll be around then. Uh, I am surprised by that. Yeah.

[00:13:23] It's, it's, it's surprising, but also horror in general, I think does less of the box office, but I will say I'm not a guy who's like, I need to see it in the movies. Most of the time, this one, I would say, go see in the movies. I would say, go see this in the theater. It's, it's really great to just have it all in your face big because it feels all encompassing. And I think it's supposed to really draw you in like that in a way that I don't think you get as much in your living room and the sound as well. The sound is great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:52] Just his breathing. Oh my God. Breathing in the theater. Yeah. So spooky. Yep. Just spooky. So to whom would you recommend this film, John? To whom would I recommend it? I'm anyone who likes horror, anyone. Um, I do think it's a little gory for people who aren't into that. This is higher on the Pukila scale. For sure. Yes. I would not recommend it. At least a plus three or four. Yeah. I might even go plus five.

[00:14:22] Yeah. People who can tolerate physical violence and want a nice slow burn. And anyone who has enjoyed the witch, I think would like this. Yeah. I think if you know Robert Edgar style and you like that dramatic lighting and with like sumptuous costumes and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, John? I think anybody who enjoys a good horror film. Yeah. I mean, this is Dracula. You know, this is Nosferatu.

[00:14:53] This is. Yeah. This is, if you like good horror, when these stories are told and done well, they're exquisite. Right. And this was so well done. Yeah. This is, it's definitely gorier than the primary Nosferatu, the previous main Nosferatu adaptations,

[00:15:18] but it is like, if you are into horror films and you know, you won't, you'll think it's, it's beautiful, which sounds terrible, but isn't it though? It is. John, are you a fan of Robert Eggert's films? I love the Northman. The Northman. Yeah. Yeah. I've watched it. I've watched it like, I think I've watched it like five times already. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't finish it. Really?

[00:15:48] I probably should. I just, I watched it at home and, and I got like halfway through and I was like, this is just not for me. This is not for you. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. I think because I'm like really, I, you know, for various reasons, I've been quite interested in, in Viking history and. I too like that. It's, but it's rare that you see it so accurately portrayed on screen. And, and also, you know, obviously it's just all those beautiful shots that he does. Yeah. I haven't seen the lighthouse either.

[00:16:17] That's on my list. I haven't seen the lighthouse nor the witch. Oh, you gotta, you gotta watch. I put the witch on my list. Um, from the end of the year. So I'm going to watch that. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think that the witch, I mean, I haven't seen the lighthouse, but I think the witch is very close in tone and, and sort of this existential dread kind of horror. Oh yeah. A lot of folks. That's his thing, right? You know, folks love that movie. Mm hmm.

[00:16:44] Everyone who I know who's seen it has said the same thing. Well, you're gonna, you're gonna love it. What I love about all of them is that how grounded they are. Um, just, he really researches the history and loves getting lost in those details, which really speaks to me. Yeah. Um, so yeah, just a shout out for anyone who doesn't know he only, this was only his fourth feature film.

[00:17:08] So we've got the witch from 2015, the lighthouse from 2019, the Northman from 2022 and Nosferatu now in 2024. Uh, before that he released three short films, which you can all find on YouTube or Vimeo. So his first one from 2006 is Hansel and Gretel. And it's like a black and white silent film in German expressionism, which of course it is.

[00:17:32] Um, the 20s, 2007, he has a telltale heart, huge jump in quality from the first one. And then brothers 2013 is actually, yeah, it's actually quite a good film about two brothers and their tumultuous relationship. But, um, and then next up, it looks like it could be either something called the night or a Western or a Rasputin film. And I kind of hope it's a Rasputin film.

[00:17:59] I think Rasputin is one of the most underutilized characters figures in history, like underutilized in fiction. You know, he was born in my birthday. Really? Wow. Well, happy birthday to Rasputin, you know, the lover of the Russian queen. Hmm. Scandalous. I'm just quoting the song. Yeah. Um, but I, I just love that.

[00:18:25] He's like, uh, that Robert Eggert's for all of these films. He really does his research. Like in Nosferatu, you see it in the medical history, that Dacian language. Um, he says he likes to think about who we are and where we're going from the perspective of where we came from. Um, and, um, this Nosferatu film was deep in his psyche since he was a kid. So it's funny because he and I kind of got into horror movies for the same reason, which

[00:18:54] is probably another reason why I respond to his work is that he, I had recurrent nightmares and he was, he, he said a scared kid. And so he liked to explore horror as a way to control fear. And he saw a picture of the Nosferatu from 1922. And he asked his mom to get him a video, a VHS tape and they watched it together. And then later he directed a play in high school of Nosferatu and some, uh, professional, a

[00:19:24] professional theater saw it and liked it so much. They asked him to, uh, do it for their theater as well. And he also, by the way, played Nosferatu in that. Um, and this, this is what made him decide. He's like, yeah, I'm definitely, I'm going to be a director. That's my career. That's what I'm doing for my life. And he's been working on this particular film for 10, more than 10 years. Wow. Now we get to enjoy it. And now we get to enjoy it. So this is sort of a, you know, masterwork. And it is for him.

[00:19:54] I can't imagine my eight year old asking me to see a picture of Nosferatu and say, Hey, could you get that movie for me? Pop. So we can watch it. I just cannot imagine it. I think I would be freaked out. It would freak me out. What? I'm searching you for weapons before we watch this movie. See? Yeah. Oh, my mom has sympathy, but she indulged my horror stuff.

[00:20:25] Because it does help with the nightmares. Um, okay. See, my grandpa showed me horror movies and that caused my nightmares. So, uh, I don't, I don't know if I'm on board with you there, but I'm glad it worked for you. There's psychological study behind it, but of course everyone's different. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, this is by far his highest grossing film. Um, he got 136 million worldwide so far for Nosferatu. And like the next highest one was a Northman at 70 million. So. Wow.

[00:20:55] That's a big jump. It's not doing bad. Yeah. It's great. Especially post COVID. I feel like everything's expected to do worse than before. And he's just growing. Yeah. He's taking over. Yeah. I mean, I think, and this is probably, we'll see when Oscar nominations come out. Uh, they're going, they've been delayed now to the 23rd. So right after this episode is released. Um, but we'll see. It's probably going to show up there. I think somewhere.

[00:21:25] He's not going to win several. You know why? Cause it's hard because it's horror. Yeah. Uh, but the substance is another one that's, you know, could do well. Okay. Maybe we'll see. Maybe, maybe we're making it. It's going to be a sweep. I swear. Which one? Oh, I actually wish, but doing has lost so much. Um, so much like impetus because it was released early in the year.

[00:21:51] Like it's probably going to get some nominations and probably get some technical stuff, but no, one day I'll watch. So we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. You haven't seen it yet. No, I'm trying to finish the Dune books before I watch the rest of, I've seen like a third of the first. Well, I, I did watch it back before Dune, but I don't remember anything of it back before reading it when we covered it. Mm hmm. And I haven't watched the second one at all. Wow. Okay. Okay. Well, anyway, about no, no. Yeah. I, yeah.

[00:22:20] I want to talk about Dune, but not now. It's winning all the awards. It's winning all the awards. That's all. That's all you have to know. Um, but about Nosferatu. So I guess, so you guys haven't seen the previous versions, right? I have never watched it in. Okay. Clips. Right. Right. So it's called the original is from 1922. It's called Nosferatu symphony of horror.

[00:22:44] And the director was F W Murnau and Murnau is still considered one of the greatest directors who have ever lived. Um, I will actually say more than Nosferatu. I think his greatest film is Faust from 1926. Mm hmm. And I think Robert Eggers is also a fan of that film based on several things that pop up in this movie. I'll bring up. Um, but yeah, Murnau was like the V, no, Ville Neuve of his day.

[00:23:12] Like he, you know, it's about the visuals more than the dialogue, even though then the dialogue was the inner title cards. So it's really like the striking lighting and all that. And yeah. Do you guys know the story about, um, why we're lucky Nosferatu still exists? No, I do know part of it, but I want you to regale me. Okay. Well, okay. So basically it is an adaptation of Dracula. If you've read Dracula, you can see it. It's a simplified version of Dracula.

[00:23:41] And, um, Murnau went to the Dracula, the Stoker estate, which by that time Bram Stoker had died and his, his, uh, widow Florence Stoker was managing the estate. And he asked for rights to create a film adaptation. And she said, no. So then he did it anyway. And he's like, you know, I'm setting it in Germany. I'm changing all of the names of the characters. Although, you know, there's a good point to be made that he does say in the title card,

[00:24:11] he's like adapted from Dracula, which is not, was not good for his court case later. Exactly. Like, what are you expecting? What are you expecting? You cannot say it's based on something and be like, I had no idea. Um, I mean, cause it was, it is the Dracula story, but then he changed the names and stuff to make it more German and in the location to Germany. Um, so he lost the case and the, he had to erase all of the films.

[00:24:38] However, he did, he, he complied, he erased, he did, you know, destroyed the copies that he had. However, luckily other copies existed already out there in the world. And it was like the internet today, you know, when something's online, good luck getting it down. Yep. Although we lost, we've lost like, I don't know, like 10 Murnau films. So it is a shame. That is a shame. Yeah. Have you guys read the novel Dracula? Yes, I have not.

[00:25:06] It's on my list eventually, but it's, I have not, but I did. After I watched Nosferatu, I went back onto Wikipedia and I read the plot summaries of both the original Nosferatu movie and the Dracula novel. I was like, oh, he did straight up steal this. This is, this is just a straight up. It's not subtle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I want to shout out the, a podcast called read Dracula that I listened to the audio drama

[00:25:33] version of Dracula recently is they did a really good job and they're like one of the only ones I've ever seen that have attempted to do a Dutch accent for Van Helsing. So respect. Oh, that's Dr. Van Helsing to you. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, all of these Dracula characters that people know the names of like Van Helsing and, and, um, Renfield and stuff, they are all versions in this.

[00:25:59] So I'll shout out their Dracula names as we talk through the characters later. Um, in case that's more familiar to people. Um, so the funny thing is in the original Dracula is, sorry, the original Nosferatu, uh, Nosferatu counterlock was played by Max Schreck, which means Max fright in Yiddish and German. So I don't know. Did you guys ever see the movie shadow of the vampire from 2000? No, I don't think so.

[00:26:28] I didn't start watching horror regularly until 2014 when I met my wife. Okay. No, it was, I mean, it made a little wave at the time, but it basically it's a, so Willem Dafoe is in it as Nosferatu as Max Schreck. And Oh, I think I did see that. It was like the behind the scenes of the making of the movie. Yeah. I did see that. Yeah, exactly. Cause it was, it was a big movie that year.

[00:26:56] Um, and he was actually, he was actually a vampire. Yeah. Yeah. I did see that. I did see it. And, uh, John Malkovich was FW Murnau and he was like, please stop beating my crew. You know? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's pretty funny. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, it's funny cause Willem Dafoe was Nosferatu there and now he's the Van Helsing character. You gotta play it all. There was a Jet Li movie back in the day where he played the student avenging his, uh,

[00:27:26] his like martial arts master. And then later, like 20 years later, he played the master in another biopic. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. You're playing two people in the same story. And that's funny. That's the same thing here. Yeah. I want to know what Jet Li movie that is. Cause I want to watch it. Oh, I gotta, I gotta, I think it was fearless. Jet Li fearless. Okay. Yeah. It's fearless. That's the newer one. Okay. I will have to get back to you on the older one.

[00:27:55] It was like an 80s or early nineties movie. Okay. So earlier I made an offhand reference that, uh, Bella Lugosi was the slippery slope that led to sparkly vampires. So you guys are familiar. I don't know if you've watched the 1931 universal studios, uh, Dracula film. I have. Okay. Yeah. Clips, but, but yeah, exactly. It's, it's an iconic famous one. And that was really the first on screen, handsome Dracula.

[00:28:24] Can I read to you the book description of Dracula? Uh, his fit. I mean, no, sorry, I'm going anyway. His face was a strong, a very strong aquiline with high bridge of the thin nose and peculiarly arched nostrils with lofty domed forehead and hair growing scantily around the temples, but profusely elsewhere. His eyebrows were very massive, almost meeting over the nose and with bushy hair that seemed

[00:28:54] to curl in its own profusion. The mouth, so far as I could see it under, under the heavy mustache was fixed and rather cruel looking with peculiarly sharp white teeth. These protruded over the lips whose remarkable readiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years for the rest. His ears were pale and at the tops, extremely pointed. The chin was broad and strong and the cheap cheeks firm, though thin.

[00:29:20] The general effect is one of extraordinary, extraordinary polar hitherto. I had noticed the backs of his hands as they lay on his knees in the firelight and they had seemed rather white and fine, but seeing them now close to me, I could not but notice that they were rather coarse, broad with squat fingers. Strange to say, but there were hairs in the center of the palm. The nails were long and fine and cut to a sharp point. As the count leaned over me and his hands touched me, I could not repress a shudder.

[00:29:49] It may have been that his breath was rank, but a horrible feeling of nausea came over me, which do what I would, I could not conceal. So, like in the novel, that sounds more like Nosferatu than Bela Lugosi, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Or, you know, all the other Draculas that we have. But you can't make that Dracula on screen. I'm just saying. Robert Eggers just did. Hollywood said, no, no, no.

[00:30:19] We can't have that as Dracula. No, half our viewing audience would not come to watch the film. Yeah. Bella, please come down. That's what they did. I mean, it is interesting that he was like the reason for the accent too, right? Like that was not a thing until him. But it makes sense because Dracula is from, it was Hungarian territory. It's Romania now and he's Hungarian. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:49] They just happened to be accurate. I love accidental accuracy. Accidental accuracy. This was the first film, the 1922 Nosferatu that it's not in the novel and the novel Dracula is only weakened by sunlight. 1922 is the first death by sunlight for a vampire. So it invented that myth. Yeah. I read that too. And I was like, wow, that's interesting that this really did like shape the modern vampire genre. Yeah.

[00:31:18] I think kind of the modern vampire genre is a, an amalgamation of the Dracula novel, Nosferatu the film and the Bella Lagusee film. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. With some key. I mean, it's interesting to see how the, because there's also a play in the mix too. Like the first 1931 film was based on the play.

[00:31:43] And then Bram Stoker actually wrote the first play right after he wrote the novel to secure the copyright. So it's just interesting how these have all influenced each other into yeah. Later versions. Yeah. Um, I do just want to address some, there's some antisemitism allegations against the original film. And it seems I can't, I'm not going to defend Bram Stoker, uh, because you read his work.

[00:32:11] He was clearly racist and misogynist and, uh, we can say product of his times, but not everyone from his time. Yeah, exactly. Um, but Murnau by all accounts was not that he was actually a gay man himself with the Jewish partner and the screenwriter and several cast members were Jewish. So, um, it's unlikely that there is antisemitism in there.

[00:32:32] There are, you see some like Hebrew symbols and stuff pop up, but that's because of this, uh, guy called Albin Grau, who he created a film company and he wanted this to be his big splashy entrance into the movie industry. And he was going to create all these films like this, but that were tied to the occult because that was his real interest. So when you see that, the Hebrew stuff, it's, uh, Kabbalah, Kabbalah. Yeah.

[00:33:00] Um, and this is also, we have to keep in mind the height of the Weimar Republic, which is when, you know, there was like the lavish partying scene. So he actually ended up, he started this film company, Prana films. Uh, this was the only film they ever made because he ended up spending as much on the premiere party as he did on the entire film. That's insane. And then that whole copyright thing happened that just killed any proceeds. Wow. Yeah.

[00:33:30] Um, but were you guys surprised to see the addition of the, the plague elements? Oh, I was. Yeah, I was. I knew that I wasn't surprised by the rats, but that the rest carried the plague was not something that I had thought about before. I thought they were just going to eat people. I mean, well, that's it. Either of you ever play, I know you both play video games. Either of you ever play a plague tale innocence? No, I have not.

[00:34:00] I have not played it. Well, I don't know that those are games where like the plague is the rats. It's not just disease, but like the rats are just like group think hive mind. And they're like eating people basically as you go and you have to like use torches to keep them away from you and stuff. It's a lot of stealth stuff. And, and, uh, it reminded me of that. That's that was the vibe I got. Yeah. Well, yeah, this plague element is a Nosferatu addition to the Dracula story.

[00:34:27] It's not in the original Dracula, but probably Nosferatu comes came out in 1922 thinking of the flu epidemic of 1918. And then also they made sure to set it in a German town during like the 1838 is the one movie 1979 is in 1850. And this is during the cholera epidemic. So they're responding to these, you know, tying these together.

[00:34:53] And, and it's just interesting how we see that evolve in the new Nosferatu film where he looks like someone who's carrying, you know, he looks like death incarnate or pestilence, like the horsemen of the apocalypse. Yes. Yes. Apollo over him. Yeah. I do like that a lot that he is dead himself. So, you know, and that's in the trailer of that line. Oh, this creature is death itself. Yeah. He looks it. Yeah, he looks it. He brings the plague with him.

[00:35:22] He's, he's just all over the place like that. It's interesting that, um, I'm thinking about all the vampire movies that are coming out now. And we have monster movies in general coming out a lot in the coming year. And, uh, Freud's had this British colleague called Ernest Jones, and he pointed out that vampire legends proliferate in periods of mass contagion. So I'm thinking, is this a COVID echo? Hmm. Yeah, it could be. I mean, every hundred years we get one of these, right?

[00:35:51] That's kind of the pattern. Every hundred years we get a major pandemic. That's yeah. Seems to be at least. Yeah. It used to be even more. Yeah. So let's not go back to that. Yeah. Well, yeah, let's see what happens. Let's see what happens. Um, so did you guys, John, did you know about the 1979 version from Werner Herzog? I like saw it in the Wikipedia article that I read after. Okay. That's my awareness of this.

[00:36:17] I, I did not know a lot of Nosferatu stuff other than from SpongeBob, which we'll talk about in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. I see. That's where I have a, I have a, um, what do you call it? A blind spot. What about you, John? Are you, I did not, I did not know about it. Okay. So there's actually two versions as an English and a German one. They filmed at the same time. That's the thing that I used to do a lot. And this is the one, like, if you ask the really snobby film nerds, which is the best

[00:36:43] Nosferatu, this is the one that's considered the correct answer, but I don't know. Um, Nosferatu, you know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Herzog. Sorry. I didn't mean to call him that. He basically, he wanted to create a, an ode to the most significant film in German history, you know, having grown up in the wake of world war two and sort of the shame that the German populace carried around with them.

[00:37:11] Um, but he wanted to make Nosferatu more human. He ended up because Dracula was by then in the public domain. He used the original character names instead of the ones that you find in the movie we did now. Do you know who Carl Kinski is? Either of you? No, I do not. Big German actor and apparently just an absolute asshole.

[00:37:36] And so, um, Herzog worked with him a lot and he would just like have this way of working with him where he would provoke him into having a temper tantrum so that he looks really sleepy when he films cause he had tired himself out. Um, but actually I have to say about Kinski is there was an unofficial, absolutely horrible sequel quote. Yeah. Very unofficial again.

[00:38:03] Sequel from 1988 called Nosferatu in Venice and Kinski reprised the role and his behavior was so bad on set. It shut down the film and ruined his career. Oh, wow. Damn. Yeah. Wow. Everyone quit, including the person who had been championing it the whole way. Wow. That's crazy. And Herzog later wrote, um, made a documentary about it after his death about he called my best friend about their tumultuous relationship. Wow.

[00:38:33] Yeah. Okay. I just have to point out two more things. One is, uh, about locations for the 1979 is there's it's set at this castle in the Czech Republic. I think it's called the Pernstein castle. And, uh, that is the same castle that was used in this film, but Eggers is really reluctant about it because he hates to reuse something somebody else has done. So he had to do completely different shots, but it's the same castle. Um, but a lot of the film was filmed in Delft, which I didn't realize until I watched

[00:39:02] it and I had to laugh that like some of the signs in the background are in touch and stuff. Um, but I love, there's this iconic, you can find it on YouTube, this party in the square that's like just overflowing with rats where people are like, ah, the plague is here and the world is ending and let's just have a big feast and party in the middle of the square. Um, God. Well, there's no germ theory back then. Hmm. Yeah. Like just kick the rats away. We'll be fine. I mean, at least it's an open part of the city, I guess. Yeah.

[00:39:33] Open here. What did this? But yeah, I did that one's most iconic for the ending, which if you guys are curious, I'll tell you after the spoiler warning. Um, just quickly to point out, there was a 2023, uh, also called a symphony of horror. And this was directed by David Lee Fisher, but it gets the most attention for having Doug Jones playing Orlok, you know, Doug Jones from like the shape of water. And like, he does all that. All we do in the shadows, hocus pocus, all that stuff, all that stuff.

[00:40:02] He can bend his body in interesting ways. And people like that. Yeah. And he, he plays a great Orlok because of course he does. Um, that one also took 10 years to make. So it must've been heartbreaking when they found out this one was coming out. It was finally released to the public in October. Uh, I it's, it's definitely the worst of the bunch because the others are all much better. I mean, it's, it's not like the others are all good. So it's merely mediocre and it turns Thomas into a cheating scumbag. And I didn't like that.

[00:40:31] Um, but basically the way they did it is they use green screen to insert colorized backgrounds from the original film and then had live action acting in front of it. Uh, so if anyone wants to check it out, you can find it on video on demand. Yes. So John, tell us about the SpongeBob. All right. So in the early days of SpongeBob, and I don't know the exact year, but this was like 99 or

[00:41:01] 2000, there was an episode where SpongeBob and Squidward were told you have to keep the crusty crab open 24 hours. So they're working the night shift and it's called graveyard shift. The episode, if you want to look it out. And there's a story that Squidward tells SpongeBob to scare him about the hash slinging slasher, which is something like fast food horror person. Anyway, he's trying to scare him, but then they realized the lights are flickering and Squidward's not doing it. Everyone's getting scared.

[00:41:30] And then, you know, throughout the night they realized nothing was really wrong. They're like, wait, but who was flickering the lights? And then it just pans over to Nosferatu flicking a light switch on and off. And there you go, Nosferatu. And that's how like all of like millennials and Gen Z were introduced to Nosferatu. That's hilarious. I had no idea. I'm not a big SpongeBob.

[00:41:57] And it's, it's the image of him in the doorway. I can send you both a screenshot in discord. It's the image of him in the doorway, but with a light clip of it. I think I've seen it. Yeah. I think I've seen it. Are you a SpongeBob fan, John? I'm not a SpongeBob guy. Yeah, no, I've never watched it. But I've seen it. I was seven years old when this came out. I was prime SpongeBob age. SpongeBob age, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Um, I, that's so random.

[00:42:27] So there's no explanation. It's just funny because it's random. And that's why I mean, I actually saw a tick tock breaking down why they did this. And essentially they had a B plot that had to get cut where they had like somebody who lived under the floorboards that everybody knew about. They were going to have him come out at the end because they couldn't do the bleep B pot. They didn't have a setup for it. So they just needed a random reference. And one of the writers was just a big Nosferatu fan. So he took the image from the poster and was like, let's just put that in there and see if it works. And it was funny. It made me laugh.

[00:42:57] Mm hmm. It was for a bar to just like, they were scared of the hash singing slasher the whole time. And Nosferatu is fine. Yeah. No, I did. Yeah, it does. Um, it's permeated the cultural zeitgeist that even though I know nothing about SpongeBob, I'm aware that that is a thing. Um, but yeah, if it's, I think Nosferatu has kind of become like a whole genre, like, uh,

[00:43:22] the Salem slot adaptations in 1979 and the new one in 2024, definitely heavily influenced. There's this vampire movie from 1932, which is definitely riffing on that. There's, I never watch this. There's this Nosferatu, but spelled with a four and the two numbers. Oh my gosh. It was with Zachary Quinto from Silas from heroes. Yeah. And so I always wanted to watch it, but didn't. Um, also to shout out the last voyage of the Demeter.

[00:43:52] If you like the Dracula on a boat part, the last voyage of the Demeter is all that. I like that movie. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. I enjoyed it. It looks cool. I enjoyed that. It was very speedy. Yeah. I think it got, it didn't get the, the love that it deserved. No, it should have gotten at least a makeup nom because that was phenomenal. No.

[00:44:16] And then there's also like El Conde that was this, um, they have Pinochet as an Nosferatu character and it's set in Chile. So it's a, like a political commentary from Pablo Loren. But anyway, yeah, that's another recent one. Um, I have a list of a bunch of Nosferatu films that maybe John, you can toss in the show notes. If anyone's curious, I have to say, even I've only seen like a third of this list because there's a lot, a lot of like random shorts and documentaries and weird remakes, but. Okay.

[00:44:45] Put the letterbox link in there. Okay. Um, but I do have to shout out my favorite new one is the Vaudelaire, which is also, it was released this year, but it's technically dated 2023. It's a French film from Adrian Beau. And it's the kind of film that made me go and read the novel in two different languages and then watch three other films and then decide that, that actually this French film is the best of all of them.

[00:45:13] So I think I just, I have to mention it here. It's a hard one to recommend to people, but if people who are into Nosferatu, it's the Vaudelaire is like another version of the tale, um, where it's about a loved one who dies and comes back. And there's this whole family drama and an outsider who's just like powdered French, uh, pompous. Uh, yeah. Anyway. And, um, it's, they have a puppet playing the vampire.

[00:45:41] So there's like this level of absurdity, but I just, I think it's really brilliant if anyone else, um, yeah, dark humor, they've added several layers to the book. Um, and yeah, if anyone, uh, it's, it was written by the way, by the, the novella. Uh, it's a short story basically by Alexi Kostan, uh, Konstantinovich, uh, Tolstoy. And so no, it's not the Tolstoy most people think of it's his cousin. Hmm.

[00:46:10] So you can find that online, the family de Vordelac. Fun. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, they, the other, um, film adaptations are black Sabbath by Mario Brava and night of the devils from 1972. Did black Sabbath, the band steal their name from that? I think there's a good chance that they did. Hmm. Good question. It's, it's a triptych of three different horror stories. Actually. One of the other ones is my favorite. Right in Mark.

[00:46:39] Yes. And now I'm, I am done with my education time. Thank you all for coming to my, you know, I liked it. I learned a lot. It was very good. Thank you. It was very good. Shall we get into the film itself? Well, I think we need to take a quick break before we do that.

[00:47:09] And we're back. Alicia, are you ready to cast off the shackles of spoilers? Are we moving from Transylvania to, uh, We tell all the spoilers now. I can't do it. Can I, can I tell you the funniest summary of this before we get into the serious summary that I've seen? Okay. Uh huh. There's a tick tock going around where somebody did a cosplay of him.

[00:47:38] And it's him saying to Ellen, you must bounce on it. Crazy style. No. That's kind of the plot. Hmm. It's kind of the plot. That is not the plot. All right. All right. Alicia wrote us a lovely plot summary, which she's asked me to read. Shall I begin before we do our discussion? Yes, please. Let's set the stage.

[00:48:04] The opening scene is a flashback to the younger years of our Gothic heroine, Ellen, who prays for guidance. Only her prayers are answered by a dark entity she's awakened, who asks her to swear her fealty to him. A number of years later in 1838, Ellen is now married to Thomas and they are building a life together in the fictional town of Wiesberg, Germany. Thomas has aspirations to advance at work so that he can give his wife a better life.

[00:48:33] And so accepts his boss, Ernak's request. That comes with the promise of a large raise to travel to Pennsylvania, not Pennsylvania, to sell a local property to the mysterious Count Orlok, making him Thomas and Ellen's neighbor.

[00:48:52] Despite warnings from the locals and an unsettling midnight vampire killing ceremony, Thomas keeps his appointment with the Count in the Carpathian mountains and sells him the house. Though he loses a lot of blood and his locket picture of his wife to the covetous Orlok, Thomas is able to escape the castle before he loses his life and is nursed back to health in a monastery.

[00:49:22] Meanwhile, Orlok travels to Wiesberg by boat, bringing plague with him. There, Ellen is not faring well in her husband's absence, falling into epileptic trances come nightfall. Much to the frustration of her best friend, Anna, Anna's wealthy husband, Frederick, and a Dr. Severs, who eventually calls in the help of the more mystically leaning professor von Frans.

[00:49:49] Despite her husband returning and improving in health, and skeptical Frederick's attempts to block von Frans' interventions in his and Dr. Severs' more violent brand of healthcare for Ellen, Ellen ultimately follows Severs' advice to give into the darker side of her nature.

[00:50:07] As Orlok's one true object of desire, she is the only one who can stop him, luring him to her bed and keeping him engaged in their carnal desires until the sun rises, catching Orlok by surprise. They die in each other's arms so that the rest of Wiesberg can live. You must bounce on it. I guess that's kind of the ending, isn't it? Isn't it? She does distract him with herself.

[00:50:37] Yeah, with the carnal desires. That's right. That's right. Jean, how did you think that even Dracula or Nosferatu aside, how do you think that this portrayal of vampires is stacked up against other portrayals of vampires you've seen? Well, I liked it more than I liked the shiny diamond version. I'll tell you that. Not even Robert Pattinson likes the Twilight movies. If you want to laugh, go look up Robert Pattinson's Twilight interviews.

[00:51:04] He hates that movie more than anyone else in the world. And I liked it better than this last Salem's Lot that we got. Oh, yeah. Ugh. That was rough. So I thought this was, again, this was very well done. I like Orlok. I like his creepiness. His creepiness. I like the way that they showed how his powers work, his supernatural powers that he has.

[00:51:31] How he was in tune with not just the rats but the wolves, the horses. Just the mist almost that he could just like almost see through walls, come through walls, compel people to do things. It was well done. I liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, those elements are from the novels with the wolves in the mist and stuff. Right.

[00:51:58] Because they showed some restraint by not using the line that every Dracula or Nosferatu movies, which is, what is it? Can you hear them? The children of the night. How they sing. Because that is a line from the novel. But... Let me just say one more thing. I like the mustache. Yeah? Okay, cool. Yeah, I like the mustache. I don't like it. I thought the mustache was... I like the mustache. It's book accurate.

[00:52:26] Especially when he first stands upright. And he has this... He looks like he's like eight feet tall. You know? And just so physically imposing. And with this mustache that is just like... Man, this... Do you want that in the same room as you? You know? Yeah. The mustache is adding to the terror for you? Like, I don't understand, John. Yes, it is.

[00:52:55] It's like... It's unhinged. It's like an unhinged mustache. Well, because it's also like... What is it hiding? But it does make him look like, you know, a... He... Well, he was... You know, it is based on Vlad the Impaler, Count Trakul. And it makes him look like this imposing badass lord who could kill you as soon as look at you. All right. But here's my question. He has three hairs on the top of his head.

[00:53:25] But the bushiest mustache you've ever seen. Come on. Maybe he pasted on to hide the rot beneath on his face. Yeah, it's actually just a disguise. He has a hair and makeup minion. It hooks around his pointy ears. What I love about this is Bill Skarsgård, who, of course, is known for a lot of horror movies, especially. Most notably, Pennywise the Clown and It. But he's actually...

[00:53:54] I mean, in case anyone doesn't know, you probably know who he is. But he's like a really good-looking guy. He's a Skarsgård. And he wanted... He first auditioned to be Frederick. And then they gave the part to Nicholas. Oh, sorry. He first auditioned to be Thomas. And then they gave the part to Nicholas Hole. And then he auditioned to be Frederick. And they gave the part to Aaron Taylor Johnson. And he was like, I've got to be in this movie. What part can you give me?

[00:54:22] And they're like, let's talk about Orlok. So he went through months of voice training to lower his voice in octave. And working with the microphone to create that deep, booming, slow drone. Wow. Do you have a theory on why he does that crazy breath? Because I heard one I really like, but I want to hear what you two think of first. Because he's dead. Like, that's a death draw.

[00:54:53] I mean, I think... Yeah. It's like it's inside your head. Like, he's inside your head. Yeah. It's like... I mean, the theory I heard about the big breaths is that he doesn't actually need to breathe. So anytime he breathes, he's just taking one big breath. Like, a rusty breath that he doesn't have to do ever just to speak that one sentence. Hmm. That's an interesting take. Yeah. That's an interesting take. That's an interesting take. I like... Dusting off the old lungs, you know?

[00:55:23] I like how this version was like the most corpse-like vampire I feel like I've ever really seen. You know, with the real rotting. Yeah. Yeah. And so apparently it's inferred through the movie that he was once a black magician who was cursed by the devil to become a vampire. And it's funny, there's so many Faust touches in this movie. And I just know Eggers is also a fan of that film.

[00:55:50] But what did you think, by the way, of the biting the heart instead of the throat? I like that. Does it make logical sense? I don't think so. I don't think you get no blood from that area. No, I don't think so either. Yeah, there's bone in it. But for that movie, with how they portrayed their quote-unquote relationship, right? It made sense to me. Yeah.

[00:56:19] Like, he's, you know, he's seducing those around him into giving their life to him, right? Mm-hmm. So where else would he, why not bite the heart? You know what I mean? Yeah. That's a good point, John. I didn't think of it like that. But yeah, I didn't mind it for sure. And I thought it was cool to change it up for sure. I was just like, well, that doesn't really make sense logically if you're trying to get blood. But whatever, whatever.

[00:56:48] Well, I think so. The Dracula, the novel, is a work of romanticism because of the era it came out. And so that was really important to Robert Eggers with this film, that they make it a romantic film in terms of like the capital R art movement. And yeah, and that's definitely just like the gothic features and the, you know, holding aloft the bizarre, the individual. All of these elements are elements of romanticism.

[00:57:17] So I think that biting into the heart and like the metaphor of it plays well into that.

[00:57:52] Nice. I don't think any movie has captured it this well. The rotting, the way he gets like right inside your head, the way he just creeps around and nobody could really stop him physically. You just have to trick him. So let me ask you, what did that then make you think of Ellen or Lenny, as she's called my friends, Hutter, who is, by the way, the Mina Murray character from the Dracula novels and played by Lily Rose Depp.

[00:58:21] What she is drawn to this and she's inviting him into her bed. And they're obviously, you know, at one point she tells her husband, like, you can't please me the way he can. How do we take this? Considering how disgusting he is. I mean, big martyr. Take it one for the team. No, but she she's drawn to him. We all have different things we're attracted to.

[00:58:50] But can we really say she's drawn to him, though, because he came to her as when she was a child, basically. Yeah, he groomed her. Right. So, you know, this is him, Orlok, being a predator, right? Picking on, picking on the sheep. The wolf looking for the weakest sheep. So, I think, like you just said, he groomed her.

[00:59:18] I think he set this whole thing in motion, right? From when he first encountered her psyche. Whatever drew him to her. Because this is probably not the first one. Right? Right. He's been around centuries, right? Right.

[00:59:41] So, yeah, I think it's, I don't necessarily think that she was like, oh, Orlok, I can't wait to see you. You know what I mean? In her dreams. Yeah. I don't know. I just think. There's a little bit of that. Yeah. Look, I think if we would have replaced Dr. Severs with Chris Hansen, this movie would have been over in 20 minutes.

[01:00:04] So, in the novel, Dr. Severs, the character that he's based on, he is one of the suitors of her best friend, Lucy. So, okay. So, in the original book, there's the two friends, Mina and Lucy. And Mina is kind of the more central one. She's the one that survives. Lucy is the friend who sleepwalks at night and is a little bit, people are worried about her, but also she has three men pursuing her who are all besties with each other.

[01:00:33] And at the end of the novel, they all team up together with Van Helsing and take down Dracula. And so, Lucy is like, when you read the book now, I can see Lucy is being slut-shamed throughout the book. And so, this is kind of an element that seeps through into every adaptation where it's about a woman who's craving this darkness and being judged for it.

[01:00:59] But also, you know, it's about infidelity and it's about, I don't know, all these things. So, a lot of people are giving this film credit that Ellen has more agency than we usually see this character have because she's the one who's kind of taking the reins in several situations. Do you guys agree? I think that's right. It actually, the way you're talking about it reminds me a lot of how I hear people talk about the Esther story, the biblical Esther story.

[01:01:28] A woman sort of reclaiming her sexuality, you know, she was in a, essentially a harem and she reclaimed her sexuality and used it to save her people. And that is what we have here. Well, it's interesting. Unfortunately, she dies, but. Yeah. So, it's interesting. In the 1979 Herzog movie, the Ellen character, so he switched back to the Dracula book names.

[01:01:55] But instead of calling her Mina, he called her Lucy, which kind of gives away the fact that she is kind of in DNA with, with the, I don't, I want to say fragile psyche because I think that she's actually quite normal, but just not fitting within the restrictions of Victorian society. And she has like something, Jean, you and I have talked about with Lilia slash Zared, Zaredna.

[01:02:22] And when we were talking about, you know, Agatha all along, but also we're going to talk about it, I guess, a bit with Cersei. But she is a herald who goes around and tells people the plague is coming, the plague is coming, you know, Nosferatu is coming. And nobody, they condemn her for it. And so, she's kind of, yeah. I guess she's a witchy woman in a way without it being a witchy woman, if that makes any sense.

[01:02:52] Yeah. People get mad when you tell them bad things are coming. We learned about it in Encanto too, Bruno, right? Like, just because you say that, just because you say it's going to rain doesn't mean you made it rain. I just, I think Ellen is probably the way a lot of artists see themselves. But what did you think of the, this was a new interpretation of, you know, Ellen slash Mina slash Lucy always goes into these trances under Dracula's thrall at nightfall.

[01:03:20] But this is the first time I've really seen it like epileptic like this. Sean, what did you think of it? That was great. Yeah. I mean, I think Lily Rose Depp did a fantastic job. The fact that they used no CGI, I saw afterwards and it was just her eyes doing those things and her voice changing into Nosferatu. I mean, the way she encapsulates the breathing again of Nosferatu. I thought the breathing was one of the scariest things. And the way that she replicates that is incredibly impressive.

[01:03:49] It's like a, it's like you're being hunted. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's like that breath that, you know, if you've been chased or if you played tag or if you played hide and seek or have been, you know, in certain situations, that breathing that you, you're trying to control, that breath you're trying to control. That you're trying to make silent, but you can't. You know what I mean?

[01:04:17] Like your body won't allow it to be silent. And I think Orlok is just that breathing is that he's setting a tone. Like you should know that I'm here. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. At all times. And it's pretty, yeah, it's very spooky. Mm-hmm. Yep. It's very spooky.

[01:04:45] I, so I know a lot of people were upset when Anna, Anya Taylor-Joy left the project. She was originally supposed to play Ellen. But now I can't imagine anyone but Lily Rose Depp playing this part. I agree. Yeah, I, I love Anya Taylor-Joy. I think she's one of the most talented actors of our generation. But at the same time, I, I just think this role was better for Lily Rose Depp. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, she, she's not, no actor is good for every role.

[01:05:15] And I, I think she would have done a fine job with it. Yeah. But I don't think it would have been as good as us. I think she, yeah. Not that we would have known, but still. Right. Right. Right. Right. I think she would have done a great job, but it just feels, yeah, that this was the perfect moment. And I hope that it boosts her career after this. Yeah. For sure. Wow. What did you think about her husband, Thomas Hutter, who is the Jonathan Harker character from the novel played by Nicholas Holt? I always want to smack him.

[01:05:44] He taught me a valuable lesson. What's that? Never sign a contract written in wingdings. Mm. Yeah. I always want to smack this guy. Right? Whatever iteration it is, I always want to smack him. Doesn't matter which story. Doesn't matter which name. Just him. I just want to smack. Well, he's a nice guy, but you know. Yeah. I do appreciate that he didn't do what most male partners do in horror movies and completely

[01:06:13] gaslight his wife, like disbelieve her. Oh, no. He didn't see what you saw. No, he's our ally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is a stalwart ally. But he's seen it himself too, so. Yeah. Well, but even before that, he's, well, he does go, never speak of this again. And that, I laughed at that. I laughed at that. Which he's like, okay, here's what was really in my dream. And he's like, yeah, don't say that again. Don't say that again.

[01:06:41] Can I tell you guys about the 1979 special ending? Anyone who doesn't want to hear it, skip forward once. But basically at the end of the movie. So always, of course, Nosferatu dies in the end in a similar way, different special effects. But at the end of the 1979 Herzog one, after that happens, we find out that actually Thomas, he's still, or he's called Jonathan in that one. He was infected.

[01:07:10] He's a vampire himself. And he goes off into the world. So all of her sacrifice was for nothing. Oh, that's awful. No, I think that's a terrible ending. But it's actually, it is actually, I'm not doing it justice. It is, it's one of those endings where you're like, oh, shit. But it's very memorable. But then it makes your sacrifice kind of meaningless. Yeah, no, I know. I know. And that's probably why no one else has ever done it. Would you have gotten into the carriage?

[01:07:41] With, oh, the carriage when the door opened? I mean, you've gotten that far to the crossroads. I mean, you're walking out in the Carpathian mountains with wolves howling at midnight. Like, what are you doing already? Seeing what you saw, would you have kept going? Before you got to the carriage part, seeing what you had seen, waking up in the morning, and it'd be totally deserted.

[01:08:09] I feel like, yeah. You would have continued on the journey? Yeah, but also he had no horse, no food, no water. Yeah, I do think at that point you're too deep in. And, like, whatever spooky shit is happening, it's as spooky outside of the carriage. Yeah. I mean, if you've gotten to that point, what else are you going to do?

[01:08:35] But, you know, I am someone who, before the pandemic, I traveled a lot. But I always would consider, you know, if I'm traveling to some place in the middle of nowhere by myself, I'm probably hiring a guide to see me, you know, door to door at the very least. Yeah. And then when the guide says, don't go there, I listen. Although, yeah, he has that career motivation, though. He wants to give his new wife a better life.

[01:09:05] Yeah. Well, his soon-to-be former wife. Not even his former wife. Can I ask you why? Widower. Why does, oh, no, I just meant because of the contract. He annulsed their marriage. Oh, that's right. But so, here's my question for you. Wait, he annulsed their marriage? I miss it. Yeah, that's the whole thing. The contract was really an annulment. It was not a deed. Right. Oh, I see. Okay. That's a new twist. That's a new twist. Okay.

[01:09:35] So, why did Nosferatu need her to re-pledge herself if she had already pledged herself? I don't think vampire rules have like an age of consent. I mean, that's a new invention, too. I don't know. Because it creates more tension dramatically. I just felt like, you know, if she was already wed to him, couldn't he just be like, well, your second marriage was invalid because you were already married to me?

[01:10:06] Hmm. I, but she wasn't, yeah. I mean, I guess he's also subjected to the legal rules. Usually, he has to buy the house like a normal, like anyone has to buy a house. Yeah, he just can't. I don't think he really did in this case because he had already gotten to Hare or whatever his name was. Canuck, yeah. Yeah, Hare Canuck. So, I think he would have just, you know. Nobody's saying there. Go live there. Hmm.

[01:10:34] Can, oh, can I tell you a fun costuming detail related to Thomas wanting to give his wife a better life? And just to show like how far Eggers and obviously, I didn't look up who did the costuming, but they used for Lily, sorry, for Ellen, self-tying corsets. So, because she didn't have maids, that means that she would have to tighten her own corset. So, the string, you'll see it wraps around to the front again so that she can pull on it without the help of a maid.

[01:11:04] Oh, that's a good detail, yeah. Hmm. Did either of you see Renfield? I did. Yeah. No. I enjoyed it. I loved it. I mean, I love Nicholas Cage, unironically. It was silly. It was fun. Yeah. It makes for good, you know, viewing on a ravey Saturday. But it's funny to see Nicholas Holt go from that Renfield character to this, you know, sort of like ultimate golden retriever.

[01:11:34] I wouldn't have continued on the trip. That's all I'm saying. No. I would have turned around. Bring it back. I would have turned around. I would have turned around. As soon as I saw the stake go through the man's heart and he jumped up out the coffin and then I wake up and everybody gone, I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. We got to turn this party around. We got to go back home. That's it. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I just wanted to say, like, it was cool that they made it so that there was one way to kill this guy. Right?

[01:12:04] Like, the traditional vampire stuff is not going to work on him. Crosses, stakes through the heart, all that. You got to really, like, get him, get him with the son. Right? Yeah. He's the father of vampires in many stories. Okay. John, do you think that they would have been happy, Thomas and Ellen, if the Orlok thing weren't in the way? Or do you think they were just doomed to he's too much of a golden retriever and she's too much of a black cat?

[01:12:33] I hear your question and I reject it. She is intertwined with Orlok inseparably. Okay. Like, her personality is largely shaped by the fact that she is wed to death. Hmm. And I don't think she'd be the same person without this whole Orlok thing. So, I don't think that even exists. I don't know who Ellen is without her psychic bomb. Is her name Lydia Dietz?

[01:13:02] Is this a Beetlejuice movie? Sorry. Oh, my gosh. Hmm. Do you? Do I think they would have been happy? What we saw before him leaving was that he seemed to be quite good for her. But if him going away is enough to, you know, she unravels without him, then how can they do that?

[01:13:32] Especially in that world where there's no, like, what's up. Yeah. But also, I don't think it's usual in his career to go away. No. Because he was taken aback by this. Right. Right. Right. Right. And to your point earlier, like, would she have been the same person without this connection to Orlok?

[01:13:54] So, would she have, with his leaving, have spurned her to go into this, you know, state if Orlok had not been, you know, festering in her mind? Hmm. What connection might she have found instead? And would it be worse? Or who knows? Yeah. So, I think they would have had a chance. They could have had a chance. I mean, I think if anyone was going to work for her, it's going to be him.

[01:14:22] Can I tell you what character really drove me crazy in this film? Who? It was the Friedrich Harding, which is the Arthur Holmwood from the novel. But Arthur Holmwood would never. This is the Aaron Taylor Johnson character. But he was so annoying the entire movie. And my favorite part of the novel is a team up. And he completely ruined it by being a tying Ellen up jerk. Asshole. Yes.

[01:14:51] I was not a fan. His last move wasn't great either. No. Hmm. Not a good look, buddy. Not a good look. Start to finish. iPhone face. This was the one. I thought he looked perfect for the part. And this is just because the way they made him. He was shorter in stature than the other. The other two actors were very tall.

[01:15:15] And the way he was carrying himself was sort of like pulling his limbs inward, if this makes sense, in a way that showed that he was like a defensive person. I thought he did a good job with the character. But I hated the character. Yeah. I didn't like the character at all. Not a fan of any of it. Again, my one criticism. I have to point out that he has. They added a first name. He didn't have a first name in the original movie. And Friedrich is because F. W.

[01:15:44] Murnau, the director of the first movie, is Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau. So, ha, ha, ha, ha. So, we had Emma Corrin playing Anna Harding, which is a Lucy Westenra character. But do you guys know Anna Corrin? Well, of course you know her. She was Diana in The Crown in like the middle years. And she played Cassandra Nova in Deadpool and Wolverine. Oh. Did you recognize her? I did not recognize her.

[01:16:14] No, not at all. Yeah. I think she's a real. Oh, I'm sorry. I should they. Emma goes by they. Okay. They are a real chameleon. I did not recognize. For sure, yeah. Didn't recognize at all. Mm-mm. But I don't recognize her. Very tragic character, though. I mean, heartbreaking. Yeah. You know, as a parent of young children, that was one of the hardest parts to watch. That is. They ramped that up. With Anna having the two daughters and being pregnant. Like, that is. That was a bit.

[01:16:44] Well, there are always kids who are like the in the novel. There's like the lady in white who comes at night. And that's Lucy. But Lucy didn't have her own kids. Those were just random kids. No, that was just. That was tough. That was tough. And it was so like sudden and just tragic. Yeah. Took me by surprise. Yeah. Total. Total surprise. But also her friendship with Anna. I'm sorry. With Ellen was, I don't know.

[01:17:12] It was recognizable to me of like where I'm your friend and I care about you. But as long as you conform and don't upset my husband and, you know. Well, she's looking out for her own life. Yeah. I also get it though, right? Like if I had a friend staying with me who I could not get rid of and who and who was literally like spouting demonic stuff through my house with my young kids.

[01:17:42] Like, what would you do? Would you be okay with that? Because I don't think you would. I mean, but obviously her friend has like physical mental health problems. Yeah. We got to get you help. Yeah. We got to get you help over there. Because. Look. Look. We can be friends and I'll visit you at your house. But you're probably not spending time around my young kids. That's probably what's going to happen. You know what I mean? I just want to point out that sometimes in 1922, she was called Ruth and often in adaptation, she's hurting sister.

[01:18:11] But this brings up that the help that did get her was Professor Albin Eberhard von Franz, or who's obviously the Van Helsing character from the novel played by Willem Dafoe. So they got him to help, but then they blocked him from actually, like he was the one who was actually helping her calm down and stuff. But then he did tell her to kill herself and take the monster with her. Yeah. But again, what was his instruction? You must bounce on it. Oh, God.

[01:18:40] That's, oh, this is what von Franz said to her? I thought that was what Nosferatu said. Well, that is in the meme that's Nosferatu, but that's kind of the instruction that von Franz gave her. Yeah. Is like, look, you know what you need to do. You know what you need to do. So John, do you agree that he is the Tangina character of this movie? Well, I never. This is a Poltergeist reference for anyone who doesn't know.

[01:19:09] If you want to hear more of my terrible, terrible Tangina accent, please feel free to check out our Poltergeist coverage. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think he's very much like that. Just the, the kooky guy, but who's like so sure of himself. And so he like makes you want to believe it. But, but also I think Tangina was like much more quickly believed in Poltergeist.

[01:19:34] Whereas this guy constantly needing to like convince everybody else to listen to him, even though he just sought out. Yeah. That was the one thing that, that was frustrating. Like you brought this guy in to tell you what's happening. He's telling you what's happening. Like Connor, you guys just kind of probably believe him. Right. You know, because he's obviously doing something that you have not been able to do. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:03] And I think it comes back to that whole romanticism thing with the capital R that it's like this reaction to the Victorian strictures where it's like you are supposed to behave this way. And then the romanticism movement is saying like, no, some people are quirky and we should celebrate individual quirks. So I noticed that like, I feel like the two most sympathetic characters are Ellen and Von Franz, who are the two quote unquote weirdest characters. Yeah. Yeah. Ellen too.

[01:20:33] And this is, it sort of dovetails with Von Franz is, you know, female sexuality was treated as a shameful thing. And I think you had to hide and repress for centuries. It's still kind of is today. Right. And, you know, I, I do think that they do a good job of sort of linking that with her psychic powers as this kind of thing of like, this is the stuff that society wants to put away. Female sexuality and the occult.

[01:21:00] And so they're kind of like unlikely allies in that. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think the reaction of both Thomas and Frederick and by Frederick, also Anna and trying to get her to conform when he's when he tells her, you know, don't say that again. And I, I didn't take it as, I don't want to hear that. I take it as like, you don't want people to hear you talk like that.

[01:21:30] Right. You're going to be staying at the Dr. Seavers resort. Right. Right. Exactly. Like, you don't want people to talk like that because if they do, then, you know, it's not going to be good for us. It doesn't matter. He's coming. Exactly. I'm coming. And that's the thing. Like, no, it's just not. Yeah. You just can't do it. And Frederick's basically just like, you will not have an O in my house.

[01:22:00] Frederick is just, you know. Oh, he's a total killjoy. He will tie you down and kill that joy. He is no good. He was just not a good. He was just not a good person. No. Right. He sucks. Yeah. He was just not a good person. And I was not sad to see him die. He was not a good husband. Mm hmm.

[01:22:18] And the way that he mourned the death of his unborn son in a way that he did not mourn for his daughters, I felt, was telling. Mm hmm. Like, just the way he, when he describing his loss. Yeah. It felt more of a loss of the, of the baby boy than of his two girls. Mm hmm.

[01:22:47] So, he was just not a good person. Yeah. No. Very deep in the sexism, for sure. Um, so about Von Franz, uh, they, he's the Van Helsing character and they made him, they switched him from Dutch to Swiss, which makes sense because German tale. But, uh, I have to say the 1922 version calls him Professor Bulwer, which I always thought it's the lamest change in name. Von Franz is much. Because you have Von Helsing. You need Von Franz. Yeah. You need something. Yeah.

[01:23:17] It's cachet. Hard, uh, V's. I need a first last name if I'm going to take this character seriously. A first last name? Yeah, Von. I'm just joking. Oh, oh, I see, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Innocent. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:05] You brought him up. But I really miss. They never include Lucy's third suitor who is a Texan called Quincy Morris. And, uh, I just think it's delightful to have an American with a Texan drawl in the Dracula story. And I'm sad that he never makes the adaptations. Yeah, he never makes the adaptations. He's never in the films. But yeah, we talked a bit about Severs, but it's like he's sort of there, it feels like, to contrast against Von Franz's mysticism.

[01:24:35] Like, oh, this is medicine. He's not his medicine. Right. But when we see his medicine in our day, we're like, that is historically accurate, but it's not, doesn't look rational to us, right? Yeah. Tying a woman down and, yeah. Yes, yes. It's, uh, what is it in O.A. Sonia and Philadelphia? Like, science is a bitch sometimes. No. You know, like, science gets proven wrong, and then we have new science, and then that's how science evolves, right?

[01:25:04] We disprove some things, and we move forward. Well, also, we have to get our own prejudices out of the way. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, look, this is the era of hysteria, right? Of, like, thinking that a woman's uterus is the cause of her mental illness. Because it moves around. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's not a very, I mean, vibrators being part of, like, treatment, right? Like, this is. Hey, there's a silver lining to every. Yeah, right.

[01:25:32] Which I've heard, actually, that's not actually, like, that accurate that that's how it happened. But anyway, we'll see. We'll see. Maybe we won't. I don't know. I'm probably not going to do a deep dive on the history of vibrators. There was a TV show about it called Hysteria, right? I haven't watched it, but it's always been on the list. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I listened to a podcast, Maintenance Phase. I love that podcast. They do a lot of, like, health-related stuff, and they did a good deep dive on it, and they were like,

[01:25:57] well, it might have been a little bit of that, but it was probably just, like, men making weird things and using them on women. Well, yeah. I mean, there are worse things that have come out of the way that mental health was viewed in the. That's true. That's true. In the early 20th centuries, yeah. I think we see quite a number of them in the Dracula films. Yeah.

[01:26:27] So, I think, okay, so the character who we always see locked up in the institution is in the original Dracula is Renfield. In the Nosferatu films, he's combined with Thomas slash, you know, what's his? Sorry, Thomas slash Jonathan's boss. Yeah, into Herr Knock. Which I always thought was a great choice to combine them. Yeah, that makes sense for an adaptation. Played by Simon McBurney here.

[01:26:56] And I found it interesting that when he got committed and when Dr. Seavers was first told that he was in the basement room, Seavers was, you know, aghast. Like, we don't use those. This is a modern medical facility. Right. So, they'd already advanced beyond that point, but yeah, then they saw. What did you think of Herr Knock, John? I thought he was incredibly spooky.

[01:27:25] And the minute he's, like, doing his little naked ritual, I'm like, oh, yeah, Thomas is dead. I was shocked that Thomas lived, because I went in blind on this. I was shocked that he escaped the castle. I thought he was dead the minute that he walked in there. And that it was going to be, like, a tragedy of, like, oh, she knows what happened to him, but nobody else will. Hmm. Huh. Yeah.

[01:27:49] Maybe that's why, um, that's why Herzog did the ending where, you know, he had him. Where he unlived. Yeah. But I think it's cool that we saw in this that Knock wasn't unhinged in the beginning. Like, often in Dracula or Nosferatu movies, this character is played for comic relief. And here, I feel like he was just really creepy.

[01:28:17] I think in the other films, though, it's like a gradual falling off of a cliff for the character. Like, we don't get the gradual falling off of the cliff. He's already rock bottom when we beat him. I think here, it was like, okay, each time we saw him, he was a little bit worse. Yeah.

[01:28:43] You know what I, so it was not all of a sudden that this guy is just stark raving mad. But it's now, it's like, okay, he's giving clear, concise, you know, directions to Thomas. And then he's running down the street stark naked. And then he's, you know, he's in the asylum. And what was he eating?

[01:29:10] Well, he's in the, yeah, so in the book, in the book, he's like working his way up from flies to spiders. And then he asked for like a cat and stuff. And then in this movie, they really leaned into that. And I think for the better, for, you know, it's a horror movie. Yeah, I think so. I think it worked. I think it worked well to have him when he turns around and you see the blood. And then, and it's just like, oh, shit, what the fuck? Like, what is going on? What is this? Like, that made me gasp.

[01:29:40] And then he starts biting into the people. Yeah. That made me gasp. I gasp. I'm like, oh, shit. What the fuck? I was like, yo. But the way he like gleefully runs down the road giggling, it's, it's, that was a great moment. It was. Yeah. It was. And it wasn't comedy though. You know, like you said, the characters also often portrayed in a comedic way. But even in that moment, I didn't laugh. You know what I mean? I did. I didn't laugh. I didn't laugh. But he's tragic.

[01:30:09] I mean, I was terrified, but I laughed too. Yeah. But he's tragic too, because he just so desperately wants immortality that he thinks that consuming life is the way to get there. Right. And he's never going to get what, they were more avert to that in this, where Orlok was like, oh, you little piteous thing. Well, I guess that, yeah. In the 1931 one, they are as well. This is interesting. Like, what is Orlok's endgame? To kill everybody? Because then he has nobody to eat.

[01:30:38] I don't think he's a long-term planner. Nah. Except for Ellen. Look, his mustache is well-groomed. I think he is a long-term planner. He has to be a long-term planner, because he's been planning to drain Ellen of her blood. Yeah. True. But if he's been planning it her whole life, why wait until she's married? That's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know. I wonder if the...

[01:31:07] Well, she said that the dream started again after they got married, right? So I wonder if her breaking their vow alerted him. Hmm. Maybe. He sensed when she was getting into the carnal pleasure mode, and that she's broken their vows, and he's like, all right, now I got to move before it's over. Hmm. I like that there was consent imposed. You know, we brought that up earlier, but I like that addition here, where they're like, you know, she has to reaffirm her vows.

[01:31:34] And she had to choose to, you know, to die as well. Mm-hmm. She had to be willing to sacrifice. I don't know if we can call it consent when it was literally like, have sex with they are all, everyone you ever knew is going to die. Part of her did want it. They made it that a more overt thing, which they do in some stories. By the way, I have to point out, in the novel, she does not die. Right. Oh, really? Hmm. I, you know, usually I'm like, the woman always dies.

[01:32:03] I'm a little eye-rolly about. Like, I think that that's a stupid trope, and people should stop using it. Just like, don't have women die for no purpose other than to motivate a man. I don't think that happened here. I think this was a meaningful sacrifice, and that's fine. Or motivate an undead creature. Yeah. But here it meant something, right? Here it was the natural conclusion of the story. And I'm not talking about Nosferatu. Oh, my God.

[01:32:31] This is maybe the raunchiest podcast we've ever had. I mean, is it not appropriate? We watched this film. That's what happened. We all had our dark awakenings. No. Everyone's thirsty for old Nosy. No, I'm talking about, I was actually talking about the bride, but that's for a different podcast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think that that's a good point to take a break on. All right.

[01:33:00] We'll see you after the break. And we're back. Alicia, what else you got for us? Have we cleansed ourselves? Have we cleansed our souls over the break? Yeah. Just talking, just a couple of final points about the filmmaking and major moments.

[01:33:30] So I pointed out before the romanticism, but also I briefly name dropped German expressionism, which is basically the style that F.W. Murnau was mostly known for, the original Nosferatu, but especially that other Faust film I mentioned from 1926, huge Robert Eggers influence. And the idea of the German expressionism is that it's like simplification for the sake of exaggeration.

[01:33:58] So we have these dramatic, obviously back in the 20s, black and white visual forms, and they use simplified gestures to make them more dramatic in a way. And it just reminds me of how Eggers talks about Nosferatu versus Dracula as being a more fairy tale version. Because it's, and I know Marilyn would object to that definition of fairy tale, but that's what Eggers says. Hi, Marilyn. Don't watch this movie.

[01:34:28] Yeah, no, she's probably not listening to this one. But I think, yeah, in terms of book to film adaptation, it makes sense that that's the case. And in terms of that Faust movie, like that Crossroads, you remember that Crossroads image from this film? Yes. That 100% is a reference to Faust, where there's a famous crossroads scene, but it's filmed at a very different angle. Because of course, Eggers will not redo something that somebody else has done.

[01:34:55] And the other thing is, remember when, that reminds me most of Faust, is remember when Knock was signing, he was writing like the contract in blood, and he was dipping into this like well of quote unquote ink, his blood in the crook of his arm. Ooh. There's this really memorable scene where, in Faust, where Mephisto gets, sorry, Mephistopheles,

[01:35:24] mixing up my epics. Mephistopheles. Yeah. Gets, gets Faust to sign a contract in his own blood, and it stabs it into this like well of blood in his arm, rather than like pricking his finger or something. And that definitely felt like a reference to that. But yeah, like I'd say, he says it's not German expressionism, he says it's romanticism, because that's historical to the era with Dracula. And basically, romanticism is about like the spotlight lighting.

[01:35:52] So that's why there's so many dark scenes where there's one source of light, like the fire, for example. Yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. That's one thing I didn't mention that I really liked was how they hid Orlok in the darkness for a while. Yeah. Yeah. But also, I appreciate that you can see things in this dark movie. Yes. That has been such an issue in recent years, and I think we're finally learning how to use light again. Yeah. Agreed.

[01:36:23] That night filter was cursed. Please get the night filter. Get rid of it, yes. Yeah. But yeah, and then also the wide nature shots, which was another F.W. Murnau thing, was like the widescreen nature shots. So they were really into like the exotic and mysterious and the gothic and all of that fun stuff that I like.

[01:36:47] I'm just shout out the cinematographer, Jarin Blansk, who always works with Edgar. So he also worked on The Witch and The Lighthouse and The Northman. And he was just like trying to do a single source of lighting and all the dark shots. But did you guys notice? I'm curious. You've seen like the clips of the original with the shadow play, and you noticed that in this film? Yes, I did.

[01:37:14] That was one of the things where I was like, oh, they're doing it. They're doing the thing. They're doing the thing. In fact, my wife and I got home, and we were both like doing the, like putting the hands up in the house. In the house, it was just funny. Yeah. No, I think it was a good balance between like they had the classic callbacks, like the cutting the thumb scene in the castle. But then, you know, like I already brought up how they left out the, listen to them, the children of the night.

[01:37:45] And I also have to shout out that for once, the Romani are not serving Orlok slash Dracula. Yeah. I appreciated that. Yeah, that was good. They were like, hey, you should not go there. Do not. Do not do that. Bad news. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. But I'm going to get a raise. A lot of people do a lot of, what was that?

[01:38:11] I just, you know, I just heard, I'm reading the Wizard of Oz books, like the actual like Oz books that I'm somewhere in it. And they said, you know, people do good things for free all the time, but to do an evil thing, they always require payment. And I was like, wow, that's kind of applicable to this movie. Interesting. Jean, can I ask you a question?

[01:38:38] You said you like The Last Voyage of the Demeter. How did you think that, it was much shorter in this version, which I was appreciative of personally, but how do you think that this voyage compared with that one? I think because The Last Voyage, the entire movie took place on the ship. Mm-hmm. It's a different feel because you're really immersed with the crew and you're really immersed in the setting.

[01:39:08] I think in this film, it was almost like shock and awe, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't get to know the crew like I did in The Voyage. But the horror of being locked up with this vampire was still omnipresent in the viewing. Mm-hmm.

[01:39:33] So I think they both were, I couldn't compare them just because of the way that the films are. But equally, I think they were just both terrifying. Yeah. The Last Voyage of the Demeter is one that I didn't super enjoy sitting through, but I constantly think back on it all the time now. Mm-hmm. Whenever, because it's the best representation, the most thorough representation of that part of the novel I've ever seen.

[01:40:03] Yeah, it was horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. But this is the first one that I felt lived up to that, measured up to that, you know, the way it was portrayed here. Just the, yeah, the horror of it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And what about the horror of that ending? Like, we got that death and the maiden motif, which is- It was a Renaissance thing that came back, of course, in the Romantic era. That was memorable.

[01:40:32] I mean, I felt so bad. Mm-hmm. It just was so sad. It was just really sad to me. I was saddened by just looking the way that they framed the shot and how you just see the embrace. Yeah. It's just like, man, this really sucks. Mm-hmm. No pun intended. This really, it really stinks.

[01:41:03] Mm-hmm. And, you know, I wanted so much more for her than this ending. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, so I was just saddened by it, which is what the film is trying to make us do, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, it really was poignant when he was going to leave, right? He saw the sun coming up and he was going to leave.

[01:41:33] And she says more. She does that twice, I think. Mm-hmm. And so she deliberately just keeps him- Keeps him dead to kill. And probably knows she's going to die. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just to keep him distracted. Just to keep him, just to make sure he's dead. Mm-hmm. Just, yeah. Yeah. No, it's a total self-sacrifice. Yeah. She died a hero. Yeah. And with that triveled corpse on top of you.

[01:42:03] Yeah, she died a hero. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But how tough is that for poor Thomas, you know? Oh, God. He's like, I just moved here. Oh, man. I would burn the whole house not living there, for sure. Does he have a job anymore? Oh, yeah. Because his boss is totally gone. There was a bunch of other people. They showed us the office. There's more. Who's the boss now? And how is he going to explain that whole deal?

[01:42:35] I sold the house. That's the realest. This is the problem with these movies, is that I get bogged down in the logistics and I can't see past it. Mm-hmm. I mean, you never know. He might, you know, start hanging out with, well, what's his name? When I was a kid, I would start, like, asking about the logistics of things in those movies. Yeah, from France. And my mom would be like, John, it's a movie. Like, you just got to go with it. And that's why I am the way I am today. Mm-hmm.

[01:43:05] Mm-hmm. Yeah, but Thomas is totally fucked. Right? Yeah. He's his. He might as well be undead. Yeah. Because that's, how do you come back from that? Mm-mm. Yeah. Yeah, he's lost, like, all of his best friends, his boss, his wife. Everything. Now, he did just get a debt forgiven, probably. I mean, really, John? Really? You know, I'm looking at the bright side.

[01:43:34] I mean, we know Nosferatu looked at the bright side in the end. Always look on the bright side of Nosferatu. You guys are terrible. You guys are just horrible. Ah, they're fictional characters. We can make fun as much as we want. Yeah, I know. Should we check in on what other people thought about that? Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. Who's going to read the feedback? So, two of them are voicemails.

[01:44:02] And then there's just a couple little, I mean, it was warmly received by others as well. Eons, I just got back from it, my first film watch of 2025, and it's a great one. It is visually stunning, and I've seen some critics complain about it being emotionally cold, but I was caught up in it emotionally by the end. Absolutely. Emotionally cold? Yeah. The only cold thing in there was the 11 fingers of Orlok. Yeah, I was going to say, Orlok's the extra member.

[01:44:32] So, Danny says, My expectations were sky high, and it still exceeded them. I absolutely loved it. Robert Eggers doesn't miss. It was so beautiful with great performances. Lily Rose Depp, I thought, was particularly great. Yeah. Yeah, I think she blew everybody away with this, because, you know, she is a Nepo baby. Like, I don't think you can walk away from that. Oh, sure. I really liked, I don't know if you all saw it, but Jack Quaid came out in an interview, like, last year and said, Yeah, I'm a Nepo baby. Like, I just am.

[01:45:00] I got my first roles because my parents were both actors, and, you know, I do my best to live up to that, basically, is what he said. Yeah. That's a really good way to look at it. Yeah. It's not denying the Nepo baby allegations, but go up with it. Exactly. Acknowledging that you had a privilege, and of course, you're going to use it, but how do you use it is the question. Right. Do you even acknowledge it? Yeah. Right. Right. Well, we've got two voicemails.

[01:45:30] I'll start with Brian8063. Hello, Alicia. I'm recovering from a head cold, so I'm putting it out there for the listeners. I'm a horror fan, so this film was a very good one for me. I enjoyed Good Vampire Show, 1979, Salem's Lot. Cheers to you and agree with the vampire. Go watch it. One of the best of the year. So the director Eggers creates such a rich, atmospheric film. I saw his witch movie, so I'm not surprised by this.

[01:45:58] You're really immersed in the tension and the surroundings. Everything is just so rich in this film. Congrats to the actors and the set and art directors. The cinematography is also excellent. The use of shadows and firelight is just stunning. I want to say how a roaring fire really is a key to giving you light in a room. I can't remember the last time in a movie that this really stood out. It's just amazing.

[01:46:26] And even the lantern, when it was sitting on the floor or the grave, with that circular light around it, it was just amazing. Some quick, interesting points that I want to highlight for me is, one, the science. On the one hand, we see Dr. Sievers, who wants to create a modern mental hospital. And on the other, we have Dr. Ron Franz, who started in science, but went to the occult to explain the unexplainable.

[01:46:55] Also, this movie has a theme of women's hysteria, which is important to remember. Skargard's Count Ulrich is the second thing. I have to say the mustache threw me at first, but after reading how Eggers lives in the folklore, it totally makes sense now. A count in Transylvania would have one, so I appreciate this touch now as I think back. His voice work is also excellent, and he had to do a lot of work to get it right.

[01:47:24] Overall, I like this movie more and more as I think about it, which is always a good sign. Thanks for doing this one shot. All the best. Brian8063. Thanks, Brian. I think Brian hit a lot of the same points we did, but did bring up, I think, the hysteria point as well. And I want to harp on that for a minute. I just think that's something that often gets lost is how...

[01:47:56] When we do these historical pieces, you have George R. R. Martin and people like that saying, well, it's historical. First of all, George, it's not. It's a fantasy world. But it's historical, so women were abused at this time, and so that's what I'm going to depict. And here, we had a full movie where she was not abused by her husband. Like, her husband was a writer died. Not by her husband, yeah. No, but I do think that depicting...

[01:48:23] Like, there were good people in these days, too. People had a choice of how they acted towards women. I think that that is important as well. And I appreciated that they didn't go into like, well, everyone in our life sucks. Like, yeah, you always had a choice of how to act. Yeah. Am I going off the deep end here? No, no. It's like, it harps back to what I was also saying about Bram Stoker, that, you know, like, we can make excuses for him of his time or whatever.

[01:48:51] But I read a lot of 19th century literature, and not everyone's like that. It still comes down to you maybe have more free reign to behave in a certain way, but you also choose how you behave in the end. Yeah, I had a professor once say that Tolstoy kind of convinces himself that women are people by the end of writing Anna Karenina. Like, you can see the process through the book of, like, the women becoming more... He's getting more empathy towards them.

[01:49:20] You're like, oh. He's like, oh, these are just people. And that's why I love storytelling is I think that it is the path toward empathy when you get windows into other people with experiences different than your own. Fiction is often... Especially, I will say, speculative fiction is often derided for, like, lacking intellectual grit, right? And people try to act like it's not an academic thing to study. Snops.

[01:49:48] Yeah, but what I mean is I do think perhaps there's sometimes less, like, real-world knowledge you're getting from it and real-world, like, logical knowledge. But you're getting emotional knowledge that I don't think you get as much from even more realistic fiction because speculative fiction forces you to suspend your disbelief, to let go of some of the defense mechanisms you have where you're trying to fit everything in a realistic

[01:50:18] fiction novel into your own worldview. And it makes you see things through a lens that challenges the central ideas of life. And I think that this kind of gothic horror does that, right? Like, how... What does her sacrifice mean, I think, is a huge question in this movie. Yeah. Well, I would add, too. So I agree completely with what you've said. But in terms of learning historical knowledge from science fiction, I would say...

[01:50:46] And this is also a shortcoming of, you know, I was brought up in the American school system when we weren't taught certain things. So I learned things about, like, the partition of India or the Tulsa massacre, things like that I learned through things like Doctor Who or, you know, The Watchmen or these science fiction stories. Yeah, that's a good point, too. It's Marvel, yeah. That's a good point, too. My eighth grade earth science seizure, earth science, told us that climate change is not mad made.

[01:51:18] Goodness gracious. So schools... You got a mixed bag. You got a mixed bag in public school, don't you? And in Broadway school, everywhere. Yeah. So we've got one more voicemail from Lisa Red Zippy. Yeah. Hi, Alicia. It is Lisa, a.k.a. Red Zippy here with my review of Nosferatu.

[01:51:45] It has been, I think, a little less than a week since I've seen it in the theater with my brother, Brian, 8063. And I still have not been able to stop thinking about this movie. So I am putting it in my top 10 for sure, maybe a top five. Wow. So I obviously thought it was amazing.

[01:52:12] Usually we can say what we always do with Eggers, how stunning it is visually, his cinematography, his use of light or lack of light. Of course, it was so gothic and so moody. It just was wonderful. And the production value was outstanding. There's much talk about his historical research and things like that.

[01:52:39] So you can see he really brought that to screen, brought that to life with his production designers and so forth. I thought the performances were terrific. I don't think you can get better than Bill Skarsgård for Nosferatu. He was amazing, as always. Absolutely amazing. Could not recognize him. And I'm a big fan of his and loved, loved, loved his interpretation.

[01:53:06] I also loved diving into YouTube rabbit holes about how he came up with the voice. I thought that was terrific. And yeah, and I really enjoyed the other performances as well. I really want to give kudos to Lily Rose Depp. The fact that all of the physical writhing pain, seizures, desire that she had to enact

[01:53:34] was just so well choreographed and all done by her just over and over again in front of the camera, I thought was really fantastic. And she really like always looked out of place and space. She just never seemed to really belong no matter where she was in the dream world or in the real world.

[01:54:00] And it's like her gaze throughout the whole film, except probably when she's really looking at her husband. It's just like she's staring out into this deep abyss that she knows is going to consume her at some point. And I will say, what else can I say about it that I really, really like?

[01:54:26] Oh, one of the things I did like was something that my favorite section, of course, my favorite scene was the transaction between the Count and Hutter when he first arrives at the castle to get paperwork signed. I cannot wait to dissect that scene. It was amazing. I was so at the edge of my seat and full of dread. It was that was just amazing. So I think that's my favorite scene. I also liked the ending. I thought that was fabulous.

[01:54:55] I wasn't that familiar with it. And I had forgotten what Nosferatu, the original, was like. So that was really cool to me. I really liked that. And that sunlight killed him and she made it happen. Yeah. So I'd say, you know, three and a half, four out of four stars for me. The only thing I didn't quite get, and I think it's a little leftover from my feelings about Bram Stoker's Dracula by Coppola.

[01:55:21] Is that there really was a real life passionate relationship between the Count and Winona Ryder's character. And when she thought he died in battle and she committed suicide and he comes back. And there was definitely a very strong emotional connection.

[01:55:43] So as he becomes Dracula and turns into a vampire, I understood his longing for this particular woman and finding her later in life, if you will. So there was definitely that emotional passion, desire, longing between Olok, you know, and Winona Ryder's character that I just didn't get at all in this movie.

[01:56:12] So that's probably why it's three and a half and not four stars out of four for me. But, you know, maybe that's the romantic in me. I want a little, did you even like each other? I don't know, something. But yeah, so that was a twee bit empty for me. But I should just accept it as devilish and demonic and leave it at that. So thank you so much. And that is all for now. That's interesting.

[01:56:40] My understanding was he wanted her because she woke him up because she came in and she went enchantress and then just sort of psychically woke him up. I mean, I think they did the explanation that they've done in many other supernaturally tinged stories about, you know, the quirky person is closer to, you know, more open. Yes, exactly.

[01:57:09] Yeah, more open to the supernatural in a way to these dark entities. Yeah. You know, I was trying to do a Suicide Squad reference and I don't think it led. Yeah, it's not going to work. It was a bad movie. The first one, I mean. I don't think it was bad. I don't think it was great. They get John coming on my side. It was bad. I'm just kidding. It was okay. It was not my cup of tea. Let's leave it at that. Okay. Very British of you.

[01:57:39] There were, there were, uh, listen, I only drink tea now. I've had to give up coffee because it was making me really jittery. But. Oh, I'm so sorry. I know. I, it's. Well. We're so sorry for your loss. You know what? I'm, I'm having a great time. I'm having a great time. Okay. I'm glad. I'm glad. But, um, no, I, you know, I think, I think Harley Quinn was one of the saving graces of that movie. Jared Leto was not. I agree. Sure.

[01:58:10] Back to. No, I mean, I'm with you. Nosferatu. Where both, um, Ellen and Orlok were the saving graces of this film. Yeah. What? Was, was Orlok the saving grace or was he kind of the killing grace? Uh, yeah. Well, he was the killing blow. He was death incarnate basically. Yes, he was. Is Bill Skarsgård like the villain actor of our generation? So, okay.

[01:58:38] Can I say a spoiler for Barbarian and anyone who doesn't want to hear it, skip forward a beat? Yeah. Um, what I thought was brilliant about that movie is they brought him in just as like, you know, he just looks like the innocent Swedish guy who, um, but you're just suspecting him. Because we think of him as this horror villain. And then it turns out that was a red herring and he was just actually the innocent dude that he looks like on the surface and gets killed. I thought that was brilliant use of him. Just knowing.

[01:59:07] That's pretty fun. Yeah. That's pretty fun. I mean, Petty Wise, excellent performance. This, excellent performance. I think he's, he's becoming a real. He did what he could with a bad movie. Yeah. No, I never watched it. I never watched it. I really like Boy Kill's World was a movie from this year with him. Um, I thought that was just a super fun revenge movie with some twists. Okay. Well, is that it for Nosferatu? I mean, I think let's stick a steak in it. It's dead.

[01:59:40] Why don't we talk about our other, uh, other offerings on the network? Can I just say you guys are terrible? Why are we terrible? You don't like doing it. Oh, you can't do it right now. I can't do it. That's why. That's why. Um, the Lorehounds feed has plenty of stuff going on. Alicia, I think this week you are putting out the Agatha party, party podcast.

[02:00:07] It's the, uh, it's the Agatha party, coven party podcast, uh, to celebrate my birthday, my birthday party. Um, and then, yeah, uh, John and I have just before this is released, recorded the creature commando season one. So that'll come out this week as well. And the MCU 2020, 2025 preview will kick off, uh, the following week. Will there be air horns? Right. But right before the new Spider-Man animated series begins.

[02:00:37] Cool. Well, that should be fun. Is the Spider-Man animated series linking up with X-Men 97? No, I don't think so. Okay. Okay. I'm just curious. Supercast and Patreon. Uh, we've got second breakfast on mealtimes. I think that's subject to change, but I think we're going to do it on mealtimes. Uh, these are, these are for subscribers only paid subscribers only. And 11 Z's is going to be the elite. What is the?

[02:01:05] Everything everywhere all at once. Probably. Oh, that's what's it. Okay. Is that, is that what's leading? It's, I think it's, it's what was leading last I checked. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I don't know how to check it. Uh, yeah. There's a link where you can just like sec check, see results. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Well, sounds good. We'll do one of these. I have never seen it. And I don't think I picked this one. I think you picked this one. I picked this one. I picked this one. Yeah. You know, it was really funny, Alicia.

[02:01:35] I have to say like you, I was listening to your Christmas carol coverage and you were like, you know, Scrooge, it didn't age well. It's problematic. Anyway, let's talk about breakfast at Tiffany's. I acknowledge up front that there's, it's mostly about the neighbor. Yeah. Okay. It's just, it was just funny. I was like, I, I don't, I don't think one of these things is like the other, but. But we also spent two hours talking about Dracula, which has problematic elements in

[02:02:04] the original novel. So, you know, it's always, yeah, we're always negotiating. How do we interact with this stuff? See Lovecraft Country, which is about, uh, you know, a black man in, uh, who's likes the writings of a very racist, uh, seminal writer. Just ask his cat. Um. It's cat. You don't know about Lovecraft's cat? No. I'm not going to say the name. You have to look it up.

[02:02:34] Oh, okay. It's not good. It's not good. It is very, very racist. Okay. Really? Yeah. I didn't. I mean, I know that he's like the worst in that regard, but I didn't know specifically about his cat. No, he's. Are you going to Google it now? He's not even. I just looked it up. I just looked it up. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's actually the post that I looked up on Reddit was locked immediately just for saying the name. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:03:03] So, so yes, I, we are navigating the past, aren't we? Um, a lot, a lot of authors with a lot of ideas. Yes. Mm-hmm. So anyway, now that we're completely off track, let's talk about Wolfship Dust. Tell us what you got going on. Uh, yeah. So silo season has just wrapped up, um, as we're recording now, still figuring out the last, uh, things due to, to some health issues amongst the hosts.

[02:03:30] So, uh, but there's going to be our season finale. There's going to be a mailbag wrap up and stay tuned for some, some other things will pop up. And then next up on the Wolfship Dust feed is going full speed ahead into the Dune adaptations series. Cool. Nice. We're sending just everybody. Uh, if you, if you know, Luke, send him love online. Oh, okay. Yeah.

[02:03:58] Severance has just started by the time this is released. Yes. Yes. Severance has just started. We'll have just covered episode one and a new season. We don't have screeners. It looks like this is a week. This is recorded a week ahead, but it looks like we're not getting screeners. So you can expect our coverage probably, um, over the weekend or Monday. I'm not sure. Uh, scheduling wise. And that's a separate feed from the Lawrence. That is a separate subscriber. You can get it.

[02:04:26] It's on the top of the link tree right now, just for ease of access. So you can get the severance coverage only on that feed after episode one. Uh, but like Alicia just said, if you're a subscriber to continue to get ad free in the, uh, patron and super cast for severance, that's part of our deal with properly Howard. Nevermind. The music has weekly coverage. Let me, let me look at what they did. They just did their mailbag and that was a lot of fun. Yeah. And I, I was listening to that.

[02:04:55] We got a lot of great community engagement with them. Let's see this week, which is the week after we're recording. This is going to be on the Grammy awards. So listen to that, to that. It's a sidetrack on the 2025 Grammy awards. Nice. It's right up your alley. That's my awards blind. It's my awards blind spot. I don't really know so much about the Grammys. Oh, okay. Okay. If Chapel Roan doesn't win, I'm going to do a three hour podcast on her music.

[02:05:23] See, I don't really, I need a three hour podcast on her move music because I don't really know what it is. See, I'm, I'm too busy in films. Let me tell you, Alicia. Chapel Roan's music is not for me. It was not made for me. Okay. I am a straight white male in my thirties and this music is made for like 21 year old lesbians. Okay. And, and, and I love it so much. It's like, it's the bop of our generation. She is the songbird of our generation.

[02:05:52] What song should I look up to? Ooh. Is it the songbird of our generation? I think you should start with good luck, babe. That's that's her most recent signal. Her most recent, recent single. Also her VMA performance was amazing with that. She did a Joan of Arc thing with it. You can just watch that performance too. Okay. I'll look up that. Yeah. VMA. Good luck, babe.

[02:06:21] This is where I come out to the audience as a big Chapel Road stand. Okay. So now that we've got, we keep getting off track in the show notes. No. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's supposed to be pH, not PR. I was like, what's PR? Oh yeah. Properly Howard is finishing up a few good films, which is all films related to a few good men, but they're also covering severance with us. So check out both of those feeds.

[02:06:51] Radioactive rambling is continuing with their studio. Ghibli covers. They just did. I know everybody wants me to say Ghibli. I'm going to say Ghibli. They just did Spirited Away. And that's very exciting. I was listening. And they're doing the Red Rising book series still too. They are. They are. And Red Rising, I would do coverage on the early books. I'm not a big person on the end books, but I know a lot of people love them. I see people. I'm on Goodreads, everyone. You could look me up. John Lorhan on Goodreads. I just joined Storygraph finally.

[02:07:21] You know, I was on Storygraph. I just couldn't get it to work for me. I just couldn't get it to behave. See, I feel that way about Goodreads. Yeah. Neither of them are good. But Goodreads did finally integrate with Kindle better. And I use my Kindle more than I do physical books now because I'm old man. Fair. I use Google Books, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, anyway. Anyway, you can find me on there.

[02:07:48] And I see people talking about the Red Rising books and liking them. And I'm like, I wish I liked the later ones more than I do. But they're good. They're good. They're all good. Again, we're off track. The Star Wars Canon Timeline Podcast. What's going on over there? So, yeah. Kicking back off with both the Era 4, which is the High Republic.

[02:08:09] So, have some, you know, been going back through with a sweep of some extra coverage, including some more Visions episodes and part one of season two of the Young Jedi Adventures. Ooh. Nice. So, we watched the kiddie show so that you don't have to. I tried watching it with my daughter and she was like, I don't like this. She wants to. You know what she's so into right now? What? Spidey and his amazing friends. Spidey. Oh, okay. She wants to watch Spidey.

[02:08:38] I remember those days. Well, it seems like a good one. Sorry. We'll make her a nerd yet. She will. She's got the pedigree. Yeah. Exactly. That's right. But also, yeah, pushing forward into, also especially in the Canon Padawan feed, into the next era. So, like, looking at the origins of characters like Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn. Yeah.

[02:09:07] And to remind people, the Canon Padawan feed is your subscriber feed. So, they should follow your links. Right. That's all through the Star Wars. Just start at the Star Wars Canon Timeline Podcast. If you're interested in more, the links will lead you there. Awesome. I'll see the Force be with you. And also with you. All right. Alicia, do you want to give us some thank yous? Sure. Do you got music? I don't, but I should be putting on, like, I don't know. I feel like I should be putting on, like, Mozart's Requiem underneath.

[02:09:37] Yeah. Or La Cremosa. Okay. Aaron, Discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller the Thriller. Are you going to put music after this? Yeah. I'll put, I'll put, I'll put Confutatis under this. I don't, okay. All right. Oh, my gosh. Picking up where I left off. Dork of the Ninjas, Doob71, Athena Adelaide, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Perdition, Radioactive, Richard.

[02:10:06] And thank you most especially to our listeners in general, to our lore hounds, but to our lore masters, most of all, our highest tier of subscribers.

[02:10:43] Samarsha and Michael G, Michelle E., Elisa Yu, Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., Stephen N., and always last, Adrian. Is that enough? That's enough. That's enough. That's enough. But good choice. Good choice. I'm just going to have it come in there. I think it's going to be that way. That was very good. That was very good. That feels appropriate for Nosferatu. Well, everyone, it's been a swell time hanging out with you in Pittsburgh.

[02:11:12] Thank you, Alicia, for putting this together. Absolutely. Thank you, John. Thank you for producing. When you're recovering. Yeah. Thank you, John, for producing this. We're all a big happy family, just like Ellen and Thomas' family. Nosferatu and Ellen's heart. Oh, gosh. Guys are terrible. That's terrible. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[02:11:43] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Hey, everyone. David here. The wait is over. Severance is back. The Lorehounds are teaming up with Properly Howard to bring you comprehensive coverage of Season 2.

[02:12:12] Join John, Anthony, Steve, and myself each week as we dive into this amazing show. Here's what you need to know. We've set up a dedicated feed for our Severance coverage. To join us, just search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast player or click the feed link in our link tree. You'll find that in the show notes below. If you're already a Patreon or Supercast subscriber, don't worry.

[02:12:40] You'll get the ad-free versions automatically in your regular feed. Plus, exclusive access to our upcoming bonus episodes that we'll be announcing soon. The early reviews are incredible. Apple's marketing push is huge, and we cannot wait to explore this season with you. And unlike the music dance experience, you don't need Mr. Milchuk's permission to join us. Don't forget, you can find the feed link in our link tree in the show notes,

[02:13:09] or just search Severance Lorehounds wherever you get your podcasts. Join us for what's shaping up to be an incredible season.