The Wheel of Time - S03E01 - To Race the Shadow

[00:00:00] The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast, called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds.

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[00:01:27] Welcome to the Lorehounds coverage of Season 3 of The Wheel of Time. I'm Alaysia. And I'm John. Hello again to those of you who listened to our book spoiler breakdown of the Season 3 trailer, which you'll find in this feed. Today we're back to talk about Episode 1 of Season 3, To Erase the Shadow. For these episode breakdowns, we'll only talk spoilers up to the current episode. So for today, that means spoilers for the first two seasons of the TV show and the first episode of Season 3,

[00:01:55] and any equivalent book content since John and I are both book readers. But we'll save any book spoiler discussion for our White Tower segment at the very end of the episode, after the outro music and ample spoiler warnings. Subscribers, we've also put together a show guide for this season, which we will be updating weekly. All hail Hand of the Pod Nancy for all her help with that.

[00:02:19] Plus, we'll be putting out weekly lore casts only for subscribers on either the Season Pass or the recurring subscription. And if you're not a subscriber yet, stick around until the end of the episode for more information about that. Plus, a one-time Season Pass option for those of you who only want the extra Wheel of Time content. And yeah, this pass is going to also include content from last season, which was the first season the pod was around.

[00:02:48] But last season, John, you and David were doing the main episode recaps, and I was just joining you for the White Tower spoiler section at the end. Yes, that's right. It was after Season 2 that you were christened a full lore hound. And I know David's very happy because while he likes the Wheel of Time, he doesn't really love the Wheel of Time. So now we're going to have two super fans, as I'm calling us, talk about this show. And I think that's going to be a lot of fun.

[00:03:13] Yeah. Yeah, we also, we had to divide and conquer a lot this year because they've decided to release everything in the spring. All the shows. Thank you all the streamers for doing this. Yeah. So anyone new listening, if you go back and listen to the last season's content, you'll notice it's a slightly different format, slightly different people. Only those who have read the books will hear me. But I do recommend checking that out if you haven't yet.

[00:03:42] And I especially recommend checking out, you guys did a really good interview with Michael Livingston about the origins of the Wheel of Time book. Yeah, he's a really smart guy. I think maybe we'll invite him back at some point. I have his book and I'm going to consult it throughout the season if there's something there. I'm like, hmm, what's going on here? Are we pulling from some real world influence? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good shout.

[00:04:06] And also to point out that all of these public episodes will be in the public lore hounds feed, but there is also a separate Wheel of Time feed if you only want Wheel of Time content. And vice versa. If you're on the Wheel of Time feed and you're like, these guys are pretty good, then go over to the main lore hounds feed. You'll get even more content and all for free. Yeah. And we'll talk more at the end of the episode about other stuff coming up, but it's going to be, we keep saying we're going to slow down, but the release gods are not letting us.

[00:04:34] I've given up on that. Alicia, you and David have defeated me. I mean, okay, the Oscars thing was just out of control, but this has, I can't control Mother Nature and apparently, yeah, anyway. We won't talk about planet change. You can't control the streamers. And we can't control the streamers. Especially Iger. I hold Iger like half responsible for this. Oh yeah. He's, he's responsible for a lot of the crunch that we're experiencing these coming months.

[00:05:01] But Iger, always welcome on the pod. If you want to talk about it, we'll work it out. Defend yourself. Hmm. Um, John, about the Wheel of Time, we've watched now the first episode and we're not going, we've agreed. We're not going to watch ahead of the episode that we're recording about so that we're free to speculate. Um, so what did you think about this first episode and full spoilers for that episode?

[00:05:24] I thought it was great. I really did. I was thrilled to be back in the world, of course, because I love the Wheel of Time generally. I'm back in Ranlan. But I also just thought this episode was even better than season two already. Yeah. I think they have nailed the chemistry in a way that they haven't before.

[00:05:43] There's been a little bit of like, you know, weird, like darkness and, and subversion of what you would expect between the Emmons field five and past seasons. And I think they're finally moving past that. And I'm so glad that they are because to me, the core of the Wheel of Time is the characters and the relationships. And if you can nail that, the, the magic, the, the main conflict is all secondary to what we're doing here.

[00:06:10] And so to watch, are we, am I allowed to say spoilers yet? Yeah. Yeah. Spoilers. Okay. Spoilers. When I'm watching Matt Perrin and Rand just like giggle together and be bros, I'm like, wow, they really like got the chemistry of these guys together. Just to see Rand laugh was such a welcome change. Yeah. Like I, I, I got really tired of Mopey Rand last season. Mm-hmm . I think we're moving past that a little bit. And I, I think that's a really good thing.

[00:06:39] Matt, they're finally nailing the humor with him. That was another thing that I think was not quite there last season. And, and they're really doing it this time. We're, we're moving at this like crazy pace. Mm-hmm . Of the plot that I think is really, really good because we have 14 books to get through. Mm-hmm . And, and they're also navigating the fact that they skipped part of book three really well. I, I am impressed with how they are reordering the story a little bit. Right. Right.

[00:07:07] And especially with the factor of, you know, where Matt had to be recast. Right. And thus missed out at the end of the first season and they had to do some rejiggering of the plot. And I think they're handling that well. Right. Definitely. My, my one complaint is I still think Rafe wants this to be a little game, a little more Game of Thrones-y than the Wheel of Time really is. Uh, I just don't need. Look, I don't need like three intimate scenes in one episode. You know what I mean? Like it's just not that kind of story. Like it's fine. Yes, it is.

[00:07:37] It has always been. There's so many sex scenes in the books and all the spankings. At least they're not doing all the spankings. Um, are there so many? I can think of one. Yes. Yes. There are so many. All right. All right. Fine. I, and one other thing I'll compliment though, is that there are things that happen off camera, you know, off camera metaphorically in the books that we are seeing on camera here that are just epic. Notably the black Aja battle. Mm.

[00:08:07] Yeah. That's, that's just glossed over in the book. They're like, yeah. And then the black Aja attacked and a lot of people died. Mm. Yeah. No, it's much better. I mean, obviously, yeah, that's smart to do as an adaptation for TV. Like show us that. Yeah. Like don't, don't skip over that. We want to see that. Mm. Yeah. Um, I would say as far as what you said about it being a subversion of, of, you know, the Emmons field five having strife and things like that.

[00:08:36] I actually think, you know, I've been reading, reading book two recently and Rand is whiny and he is pushing his friends away. So I think that rather than it being a subversion in prior seasons, I think that what they have the opportunity to do now and they did well in this first episode is actually to kind of lighten that up versus the books a little bit, you know, especially because things do have to move at a faster pace because, you know, there's only so much screen time.

[00:09:06] Um, yeah, I think I agree. They did a really great job just showing the connections between various people. And also just, you know, they, they had a lot of nice moments with just two characters at a time and various groupings. So, uh, like for instance, there was a nice, really nice conversation between nine even Matt, which might not be the first two characters you would think to pair based on what we've seen in the TV show, but we need to have all these different established relationships,

[00:09:35] uh, in our minds, especially as the characters part ways at the end of this episode. Yeah. And I think that that's what my, it was my biggest complaint about season one is they didn't set a foundation for the relationships of these characters. And that was, that was my biggest beef and they didn't really go back and do that in season two either. So I'm glad that we're, we're, we're kind of starting to do that now. I wish we had done it sooner, but I think it's, it's good to do it whenever you can do it.

[00:10:02] I just think, you know, you have this journey, which the first book of the wheel of time, the first season of the wheel of time really is very closely tracked to the story of the Lord of the Rings. Right. And you need the shire to be established. You need that home to be comfortable. When Rand says in this episode, I want to go home. Like, why would you want to go home? It seemed pretty crappy in episode one. I wouldn't want to live in the Emmons field of episode one. I would. Even prior to that. I was like, why? Why?

[00:10:32] You don't want to live in an idyllic country town where. I didn't get the vibe of that. I got, I saw a woman get pushed off a cliff. I saw. She survived. She's fine. She got her hair braided. And yeah, anyway, my point, my point is I didn't feel like they set the foundation. You have to earn those character moments, right? You have to, if you want me to be upset that Rand is being a dick to his friends in season two, you need to give me a season one where they're best buds. Right. And I didn't get that. We did get that in the book of book one.

[00:11:01] So again, I don't want to keep complaining about season one because that's just exhausting. But I'm glad, what I'm saying is I'm glad that we're catching up now on that relationship building. Okay. Again, I'm just putting it out there for those listeners at home. I love season one. I do think it's continuously improved since then, but I think season one had a really strong start. The first episode was a strong start. But there was also in addition to the COVID stuff that, you know, that took a toll later

[00:11:28] in the season at the start of the season, there was also the toll taken that they were told at one point, basically they had to cut back on the amount of material they had. You know, they thought they were going to be able to do more episodes and the episodes in the first season were shorter. This episode was an hour and nine minutes long, which is almost. Was that was that with everything like with the. Yeah. With the credits. Okay. Yeah. And the problem. Yeah. Yeah. So the first season was much shorter.

[00:11:55] And now the last season, every episode was about an hour this season. I think it's fair to say that people can expect the same. It's yeah, they just have they're being given more screen time and they're making use of those extra minutes. And you could really feel that this first episode was there was so much going on. I was yeah, I messaged you. I was like, oh, they're like, let it let us go. Oh, we have places to go this season.

[00:12:23] What was your take on on this episode? Well, I mean, this I've been saying my take, but yeah, I'm formally inviting you now. I'll just add to it that the costumes continue to blow me away. So kudos to Sharon Gillum, the costume designer, and I forgot to write down the name of the person who does specifically the hair, the wigs, but that was also really noteworthy. I like I liked what they did with the Gwaine's wigs.

[00:12:52] Although, did you think that a Gwaine this episode was looking a lot like men is described in the books? I did not have that thought. She was she has the short hair. She's wearing the pants. She with the vest and stuff. She looked very men like to me. You think they're they're giving her some men's characteristics? I mean, they introduced men. Yeah, they I mean men's in that she wasn't in this episode, but she's in the show. She'll be around this season. Yeah.

[00:13:18] Um, but yeah, I just I noticed that but the part that struck me the most I guess was when a Gwaine will talk about it, of course, but a Gwaine does her testing and she goes through the arches and we see an alternate world where she's Amarillyn see the hair and the costumes in that scene or just chef's kiss. Yeah, especially, especially dark Rand. Yeah, hippie. I like I like his hair. Yeah.

[00:13:46] Yeah, I can I just say like Joshua Stradowski. I was a little dubious. I was a little dubious of his acting in season one and a little bit in season two. I thought he got better in season two. Okay, this one. I thought he nailed this episode. I again, I think I really needed to see Rand left. Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt your take. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was just saying it's Josha by the way. He's Dutch. It's Josha. Mm hmm.

[00:14:15] Well, I apologize that during my insulting section. I mispronounce your name, Josha. I mean, I thought he did a great job. But yeah, let's let's get into our breakdown of episode one of season three to race the shadow. It was this was written by Justine Joel Gilmer, who she also wrote episode six of season one, the flame of Tar Valon and episode seven of season two, Dice, Dymar. And she's going to be writing this season's finale.

[00:14:44] And the director is Ciara and Donnelly, who directed the last two seasons of season one, which, you know, that was a rough task because I remember I was watching. Yeah, I was watching with my friends and we were like, oh, how convenient that the murder holes are one point five meters apart. You know, honestly, I don't blame him for that. This was just a an unfortunate time in filmmaking. And he did the best he could.

[00:15:15] I would have perhaps changed some of the writing there, but I don't think you can blame him for that either. Yeah, I mean, I it was apparently they were, you know, Amazon was putting them under pressure to because they had been away for months. And so there was actually writing being done on the morning of on the set as they're trying to adjust to the demands of the covert regulations. And it was just it was just a mess. You know, I give a lot of passes. And it shows.

[00:15:44] I give a lot of passes to the season one finale for that reason. That's right. Absolutely. But so we should say also that this episode, the first episode, we won't drop this episode, our breakdown of it until, you know, it officially airs in the 13th. But a lot of people did watch this a week early at an online fan event on March 8th. And there are there are others who watch this even earlier at a London screening.

[00:16:11] So people who watch this even before for we're recording now. So, yeah, we're recording here on March 6th. So we're a little a little before about a week before the episode. Mm hmm. Yep. So this opens. So Rafe Judkins, the showrunner, he promised that season three would open with 20 minutes of middle aged women shredding each other. And he delivered that. That's what I did. I didn't realize that was a promise. He did also promise.

[00:16:39] And I think we're realizing this now that I've seen one episode. And by the way, we do have screeners, but we're not watching ahead. Right. So we are speculating in good faith. But, you know, he said that this was going to be book four, like this was going to be the Shadow Rising. And I'm glad we're dedicating a full season to that story because I recently reread it. And my God, is it packed? Yeah. It's like probably the most packed book. It's got like a bunch of different major events that all happen at the same time.

[00:17:09] And I'm glad that we're really going to slow down and do this. Yeah. And stick around until after the outro music, if you want book spoilers where we discuss what those events are, some of them at least.

[00:17:49] Yeah. So the history in the dark. And the old. But the city in the dark. It's going to be a cause. In some of the dark cities. It's going to be a little kämpire.

[00:18:19] The The Golden. And the black witch. Viren Sedai, leads her blood sister Adelaus and trusted friend Naomi to the secret 13th Depository where the Aes Sedai's greatest objects of the power are kept. Once there, Naomi reveals herself to also be a Black Sister, knocking out Viren and Adelaus with a special weave and stealing everything she can carry. When Viren and Adelaus wake up later, Adelaus has lost her memory. Outside, Naomi rejoins the other Black

[00:18:49] Sisters who save Leandrin from being killed. They then try to shield Swan, the Amaralyn Seat who leads the tower, but she is saved by her estranged lover Moraine. The Black Sisters kill Ivan, one of Green Sister Alana's warders, and escape with the stolen objects of power. So, yeah, so we saw the first 10 minutes of this were released early on Prime and for like a week on YouTube. Did you watch that before watching this? I did, I did.

[00:19:19] I saw a lot of go, you will not leave here alive. And then, of course, we cut to black and you're like, ah, what's going to happen? Yeah. We thankfully didn't have to wait as long as everybody else, but it was still like, oh, that was a good cliffhanger. Man, I loved seeing the Green Aja, which for those who haven't read the books, the Green Aja is the Battle Aja. They are the Aja that is supposed to be like the most battle-ready, war-like. Like, they're not supposed to do anything with that, but they're

[00:19:48] supposed to be trained to like fight the shadow at a moment's notice. And we see that happen here. Like, oh my god, Alana was such a badass in this scene. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the cool thing was that, you know, so we got that 10-minute preview, and then that cliffhanger, and then, you know, you continue watching, and it actually just even amps up more. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there, I feel like it's less brutal after that, but it's more intense. Yeah, well, it was, like, there was a

[00:20:17] moment where Leandrin almost, you know, it looks like she might die. It's like, oh my god, what if, because, you know, they have killed characters that didn't die at this point in the book, see, you know, last season. Yeah. So, I'm like, oh my god, what if they kill Leandrin? I thought that too. I was like, are they gonna do this? Yeah, and I was, like, part of me, I'm like, wait, am I rooting for Leandrin to live? What the hell? Honestly, like, I could see them, you know, be doing a little bit of, like, give this character different plotlines and whatnot and writing out

[00:20:47] Leandrin, so that was realistic. So, I think that is an exciting thing for book readers to not know if they're gonna make major changes like that. Yeah, yeah, because they have before, and I'm certain they will again. Actually, we see something later this episode that also is a major change, I think. Yeah. And just to say that, so we are doing extra lore casts for subscribers, and our first lore cast is going to be going deeper into the Aja system and the role the Black Aja plays in it. So, yeah, we'll go into all the details

[00:21:16] there, but suffice it to say, it's an extra status, basically. So, you're never only Black Aja, you're publicly a member of another Aja as well. Right, right. You wear a mask of another Aja, sort of. Yeah. But, yeah, I think that's gonna be a really fun podcast, but we're not gonna, like, withhold knowledge here. So, that's why we're talking about the green being the battle Aja, the Black Aja being the evil, dark Aja. Right. We'll just add to it there. We'll just go a little deeper. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Mm-hmm. I love confrontation that's with Swan and Leandrin. I did a timestamp here, if you want to sound clip it, but Swan says, you have betrayed us all, and now you will be tried, stilled, and give up every member of the Black Aja before you die. And I love Leandrin says, you're right, I will. And she's basically telling all the other Black sisters in the hall, like, I'm gonna give you up. And she says, join me. And that's when battle commences.

[00:22:17] I can't sound clip that, because you did it so well. I have to leave it at. Okay. Okay. So, we had a lot of Black sister reveals in this episode, and it was interesting because, so, Leandrin, obviously, even show-only watchers know from the end of last season, Leandrin is, you know, sworn to the dark. We saw that. And so, she walks in with this half-black, half-red dress, and it's like, mm, settle, Leandrin. Um, but then, you know, as a book

[00:22:47] reader, I kind of know what's about to happen in this confrontation. I know that more Black sisters are going to step up. So, I'm looking around, and you see, oh, this sister has a Black vest on, this sister has a Black belt on, like, oh, how cute. They're identifying themselves. Um, those are the sisters that are gonna step up. But then, twice as many as that stand up as Black Aja. So, even as a book reader, I was surprised how many sisters were involved. Yeah, and I don't remember who said it, but somebody went, how are, how are

[00:23:16] so many of our sisters sworn to the shadow? Yeah. Yep. It's, it's shocking, right? Because this is something that the Aes Sedai have denied forever. They've always been like, there is no Black Aja. There is no war in Ba Sing Se for our Avatar The Last Airbender fans. The complete denial that this could possibly exist. And Aes Sedai would never swear to the shadow. That's only something that normies do. And this is part of that Aes Sedai hubris and elitism that gets them into trouble a lot of the time.

[00:24:12] Yeah. I mean, I knew that when, when they got to the 13th Depository, something was going to go wrong because just because of what happens in the book. That's not quite how it happened. It's not quite how it happened because we didn't really get a big description of the book. We just got told they stole Terran Grail. Um, but yeah, I, I just think that, uh, I, I was surprised by all of them really. Yeah. I was, I was not surprised that they were there. I was surprised at who a lot of the time.

[00:24:40] I mean, Naomi, because like last season I was really into the Brown sister bonding and so, and Naomi was an important part of that. So that was really like, Oh, not you. Um, but there were others like Joya is a gray sister and she, you know, uh, last season I was already saying in our, uh, white tower segments, I was like, yeah, pay attention to Joya. She's black Aja that is known. Uh, so it wasn't surprised to see her step up.

[00:25:09] Um, that green that came up Jean, um, Jean Cade. She, yeah, is also black Aja in the book. Chesmal. Enmary, yellow, uh, Amiko, Nagoyen, yellow. They all made it out and Ispen Shefar, blue. So those are all the sisters that made it out together. And, uh, I, we're going to be following what they do after this. We know based on the trailer they show at the end of the episode. Um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:37] And something that I'll say is I know, I know Marilyn was saying like, is every person you don't like. No, dark friend. Yeah. And I see that's your next bullet point here. So I guess you should probably just go along with that. No, I mean, yeah, but that was exactly the point is that, uh, so we, we see two red sitters, uh, Tsutama and Amira who are being barred from going into the hall and by Alana's warders and Alana's warders are like, no, you can't go in there. Like you fools.

[00:26:07] You're going to let your sisters die. And it's their prejudice that, and they, and then Jean walks up and they are immediately like, Oh, green sister, you're good. And it turns out Jean is the black Aja and, and the red sisters really were probably just going to jump in and try to help, you know, fight the black Aja because just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're evil. Right. And, and this also is sort of a subversion of something that we see a lot

[00:26:35] of, uh, you know, obviously they came out in opposite order. Like the wheel of time came out first, but Harry Potter, a lot of people bring up like the Slytherins of Harry Potter. There's not a wizard who went bad. It wasn't from Slytherin. Right. Right. And so you, you start reading this and you're like, is the red Aja sort of the Slytherin of the Aes Sedai? And, uh, no, they're not because yeah, you might disagree with them. I certainly disagree with them on their approach to a lot of things. And I think that there's a lot of consequences of their actions that are negative, but

[00:27:04] there's dark wizard, dark wizards. There's dark Aes Sedai in every single Aja, even the yellow is like the healing Aja. Like what it's crazy. They're all over the place. And that's why it's almost scarier because you never know who could be. And I think something we have to watch out for this season is what's Swan going to do to root out the black Aja. Right. Right. And, and I think that that's why Naomi, the brown sister they added, who isn't in the books, um, was a good one because they showed, you know, this, this

[00:27:33] bonding with the other brown sisters and they all look so sweet together. And then, you know, we see Viren later, this episode says to Moraine, like I watched her grow from girlhood because again, uh, reminder Aes Sedai age very, very slowly. So Viren is, she hasn't said how old she is, but let's assume at least a century. Right. If, if she's already starting to have like gray hair, then a lot, she's a lot to

[00:27:58] vary. Um, can I ask why did the weave affect Viren differently than Adelaus? She blocked you. She threw up her hand and there was, you could see like a little Oh, I didn't notice that. Go out. Yeah. So she able, so it knocked her out, but she didn't, um, lose her memory. Whereas Adelaus was caught unawares and her hands were by her side. Mm. Yeah. So sad Adelaus. Yeah. So speaking of the 13th Depository, so in this, it's a

[00:28:28] slight difference from the show to the books, uh, in the books, the 13th Depository is secretly, is, uh, sorry, specifically a library of secret histories. So books. And there is also a stash of these saw on Greal and terror on Greal, which, yeah, do you want to remind people what those are? No, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, yeah, the saw on Greal. So are they're combining the saw on Greal and the regular on Greal, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:57] To simplify. So the saw on Greal are objects that can amplify your ability to use the power, the one power. And so that means if I can hold 10 units of the one power, I can hold like a hundred units of the one power. Like that's, that's an exaggeration in some ways, but it can be that much depending on the power of the on Greal or saw on Greal. The terror on Greal is an object that may or may not require

[00:29:25] the use of the power, but it uses the one power to do a specific thing. Like it only does one thing. It's a one trick tool. Right. Right. Like we think when Moraine travels to see Swan and their little love nest that there, that's a terror on Greal that they're using that just has the express purpose of taking them to this location. Right. Yeah. There's, there are a ton of different terror on Greal. And the problem

[00:29:54] is often people won't know what they do. And so they try to use them and then they get hurt because you just don't know what's going to happen. Right. Like, like the archways that we see a Gwain go through for the testing or terror on Greal. Right. And those ones do require use of the one power, like somebody to channel it into them, but some of them don't. And that's something important to remember too. Like people who can't channel can sometimes use terror on Greal, depending on which one it is. Right. And all of these things. So, and then the on Greal are like lesser saw on Greal. So, and they just

[00:30:22] amplify your power. So on Greal amplify your power, saw on Greal amplify your power more. It seems like in the show, they're just calling them all saw on Greal, which makes sense. Yeah. I think it's fine. I think it's fine. I, I, I do think the show could trust its audience a little bit more. I, I, I think it dumbs it down a little bit too much sometimes, but I mean, they're throwing so much lower people. I know that people were overwhelmed in the first seasons by it. I don't blame them. Yeah. Right. Oh, right. This doesn't change anything. You know, you, you look at game of Thrones and

[00:30:51] like that gets complicated too. Like how many they also cut out so much lore and game of Thrones and characters. I'm still bitter about some of the characters that cut. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I just think, I just think we can trust our audience just a little bit more than we do in the show. Um, I, I don't know because I know people, uh, have been also lost on the other hand. So I think they strike the right balance where, yeah. Um, but just to point out some key things that they zoomed

[00:31:20] in on that we saw Naomi stealing. So there was a, uh, a little statue that I think is a song grail from the books. Um, there's an armband that we know from previews is going to be important this season. And one other thing she couldn't have possibly stolen this, but in the back, this is very important to book readers. And we'll talk about this more in the white tower section. There is a twisted red door frame in the back of this room with snakes and foxes carved into it.

[00:31:47] Yep. Yep. Just, just watch it. That's all you need to know for now. Yeah. Just that's there. That's the thing that's there. And yeah. Yep. Yeah. What did you think of, um, the, we saw some interaction between Moraine again, she was, she cannot enter the tower because of that oath she swore to Swan in season one, which by the way, that episode was written by the same writer as this episode, but we do see her help Swan in the city. What did you think of

[00:32:16] that non reunion reunited and feels so good? Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know if either of them felt very good about it. I think, I think, uh, Moraine wishes she could, you know, just be with Swan. And, and here's the thing is like, I feel like if they, if they had not witnessed the prophecy, which we saw this happen in, in season one, there was a flashback season two rather, um, if they had not heard that

[00:32:45] prophecy together, that like the, the, uh, dragon reborn was being born, I think they might've just been green and been each other's partners and would have like lived a very peaceful life just in the white tower. Right. Whereas now they are more wedded to the cause than they are to each other. And that's just sad. That's just sad. And I think that they're finally seeing, you know, obviously it's kept them apart, like at a physical distance before, but this is the first time a disagreement

[00:33:15] in how to approach this goal has really emotionally torn them apart. Right. Yeah. I mean, it'll be interesting to see, especially with that, that oath still hanging over Moraine's head. It'll be interesting to see if that plays out in a certain kind of way. Um, and just what happens with Swan overall, because I keep saying, I wonder if her story is going to go a little differently than in the books. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a question. Speaking of differently from the books, I do have

[00:33:44] questions about how a shield is cut in the show universe. Do you, what was your understanding of what, so the Black sisters shielded Swan and they were going to drop some stuff on her, but Moraine stopped them from dropping like a building on her and saved her like that. But then did she, did they loosen up their shield enough that she cut her way out or the Moraine do something or how did that work? I think she was starting to cut her way out. And that's why they said, we have to, we have to kill

[00:34:13] her. You know, we can't just keep doing this. I was a little bothered by this because it's, it's a very clear point in the books that you cannot break out of an active shield. So something, something that a person is actively maintaining, you just can't break out of that. You can break out in other circumstances sometimes, and that's possible. And I'm not going to go deep into that because it might be a spoiler later. I don't know if they're actually going to do this because of the way they're changing

[00:34:40] this, but there, there should be no way to get out of this if you're going straight with book lore. But then again, we did see Loghain was able to break out of a shield that was being held by multiple sisters in season one. And that was an indication of the strength of his power. Yeah. Which I also think breaks lore, you know, I just think they both, both can be true. I'm saying it's internally consistent then, at least for this show. I'm not accepting that the show lore is going to be a bit different than book lore. Yeah, that's fine.

[00:35:10] As long as it makes sense internally. It bothered me a little bit, but then I just moved on. Like, I actually forgot about this until you just asked me about it. Sorry. Even though I complained about it to you when I read it. When I watched it, rather. Yeah. So another point that they make sure to emphasize this episode is that Nynaeve, she has this blocking channel that she can only channel when, I don't, I mean, in the books, it's often when she's angry here, she's, she's feeling fear when the

[00:35:38] Black Aja attacks and she just freezes up and cannot call on the power. She's not hulking out. She can't help out. She needs to take some, some advice from, uh, no, I can't remember the name of the guy who plays the Hulk now, Mark Ruffalo. She's got to get some lessons from Mark Ruffalo. Well, yeah, he's always reverting. I don't know if that's, she can do better. Maybe she needs some advice from, uh, from Jen, from She-Hulk.

[00:36:07] She, she does better at managing that. I have not gotten up to it in my chronological watch of the MCU. I have to, I have to do it. I know I'll like it. I've heard good things. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. I'm not up to it yet. Okay. Uh, speaking of green women, Alana, she, she, she lost a warder this episode, Ivan. So they recast the Ivan actor and I had a feeling that he was going to go down, especially when he didn't appear in the posters for the season. Um, but it was kind of, so I understand

[00:36:37] they recast because, uh, I think the original Ivan actor was busy, you know, he had a scheduling conflict and it's like, well, we're just going to bring you back to kill you. So might as well bring in another actor. And I get that completely. But part of me was like, well, it just lessened the impact slightly just because like I can squint and pretend that's the same actor, but it's not. And I really liked Ivan, especially last season. He said a lot of interesting things and I'm sad about him being gone, but it felt like a different person because he was only there

[00:37:06] for a second. Yeah. I hear you on that. Um, I do think that this is going to serve the story. This death will serve the story. It's not just going to be a meaningless death. No. So, uh, I, I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of that, but it was sad to see, see the loss of a warder. And we saw the opposite last season. I would not say last season, season one, we saw a warder grieving and I said, I, because once you, once one person on the side of that bond dies, that like shatters the person on the other side.

[00:37:36] It's like losing a part of yourself. So I wonder how deep they're going to go into Alana's response this season. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there were people, book readers who were upset that they spent in a whole episode on, on showing, you know, how Stefan responded to his warder, Karenie dying. And, uh, I think this shows that they were doing that for a reason. They're laying important groundwork, but then what a chilling contrast with that

[00:38:03] green black sister, Jean, who, uh, her, one of her, her, I guess both of her warders are killed and she's like, she likes it, you know, in like a sadomasochistic way. Yep. It's, it's very chilling as you, as you write here. Uh, one thing I want to ask is it, it appears that one warder can feel the other. Yes. Yeah. They did establish that in previous seasons. That's different. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it is a change. I think it's fine.

[00:38:32] It doesn't really bother me. Um, it's interesting. It's interesting. Yeah. Well, I thought it made sense, especially for, um, you know, played a role in, in the thruple of Alana and Maxim and Ivan. So I thought it made sense there. My advice to you, I did watch the first season of season two, episode one, uh, or the first episode of season two. And I'm planning to watch the rest of them soon. I just, I just need to make time for it. But, uh, just, I, I love the scene where

[00:39:02] Egwene goes like, I needed your advice. And she's like, my advice is to focus on your own pleasure first. And she's like about the weave. I need your advice about the weave. The weave. Um, Alana was a badass this episode though, by the way, I love how she channeled an arm blade. Did you see that? It was like a blade coming off of her hand. Like she was going to punch someone with a power, with a sword of the power. Well, I saw this as a, as a callback to Leandrin in season two, episode one, which

[00:39:32] is Leandrin makes a blade. She goes, you know, and I need your, you're training with these swords. Swords are useless. I can make a sword right now out of air. And then she doesn't. She goes, but this is useless too. This is, this is still like a limitation because it's attached to me basically. And I was like, oh, but this battle, as you remember, this, this Alana here is doing it and putting a limitation on herself. Like there was nothing stopping her from just pushing that blade forward with the air. But she, she put, she put herself in a situation where she had to physically move

[00:40:01] her arm forward. Yeah. Because I mean, I think she just really wanted to punch the shit out of the person who killed her border, you know? Yeah. But I mean, I understand the emotion of it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, it wasn't a logical move. It wasn't exactly. Yeah. It was purely driven by rage and hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I did like to see Liana, the keeper of the Chronicles stepping up more this season. She was spent a little too much in the background for me.

[00:40:31] I mean, she got a bit more attention in season two, but, uh, this season I'm expecting to see more of her. She's, she's in the background a while in the books too. And then she, yeah, she comes out a little bit more. So I think that's fine. Yeah. Uh, did you have any other thoughts about this opening brawl? I don't think so. We spent 40 minutes talking about it. I think we did it. All right. This is probably a good place to take a quick break and we'll come back and talk about the rest of the episode. All right, let's do it.

[00:41:18] Okay. And we're back. And, um, so we're going to be talking about basically one plot arc at a time rather than scene by scene. So we're going to start with, uh, something, a discussion that was going on throughout the episode, this talk of the city of Tyr, city slash nation of Tyr. Um, I think, yeah, Tyr is like, it's like a New York, New York kind of situation, right? Where the capital city and the nation are the same name. Mm-hmm. Uh, so Moraine and Lanfear are secretly still working together, both trying to

[00:41:47] push Rand to go to the southern city of Tyr, where a prophecy says that he will claim a sword called Kalindor and conquer the unconquerable fortress there. The first of many nations he will one day rule. Moraine has arranged a ship to take them there. And so, yeah, one thing about this show that I really wish they would implement is maps. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like the wheel, the, the rings of power maps where they're like guiding you across. Yeah, that would be helpful. Or, or, yeah, the, yeah, that was, rings

[00:42:17] of power did it especially well, or game of Thrones. And maybe they don't want to feel like they're copying, but hey, rings of power is also an Amazon show. So, um, but for anyone who doesn't know Tyr, it's on the southernmost coast and that's where Swan is from. So we, we saw Tyr in flashbacks, uh, when we saw her as a child, like if you look in the background there, there's a sort of fortress sticking up in the background. That's a stone of Tyr. And that's also the location of her secret love shack with Moraine that we were just, um, referencing.

[00:42:47] John, what is the Carathean cycle since that comes up this episode again? Yeah. The Carathean cycle is a, a set of prophecies essentially about the dragon reborn. They're the prophecies of the dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Like saying that he would be reborn on dragon mount, which we saw in previous seasons that that is indeed where Rand was born. Um, it's often also the, um, the opening quote for a lot of the books. Some of them, some of them are like

[00:43:17] commentary on it and then some of them are from the Carathean cycle directly, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. And so that, this is also what's saying that he's going to go to Tyr and get this sword. Um, but they added something for the show. It's not in the books. He's ran says to Moraine, they say lose Theron put Kalindor in the stone of Tyr, which is interesting. I mean, we, I don't think we ever got the origin of Kalindor in the book. So I think that's fine. No, not exactly. No, yeah. But then, so they set it all up.

[00:43:46] Like they're going to go to Tyr, which is indeed what they do at this point in the books. But then, you know, in the TV show, there's just too many locations for one season of television. So they're like, well, and we've reminded you Tyr is there and this is a goal, but we're going to sidestep and go somewhere else instead. So I'm glad they name dropped Kalindor. Kalindor is important, but I'm, I'm also glad that we're doing full shadow rising now. Yeah. Yeah. And they're, they're going to, um, some of the plots that happen in Tyr, they, they

[00:44:16] are clearly setting them up, but they'll just happen elsewhere with like the black Asha and things like that. So that makes sense. Um, I guess we should point out there's a lot of Arthurian references in this and that's because, you know, it's, it's the wheel of time reincarnation. There is, uh, Tom Merlin is also Merlin in a reward. But so is the Amerlin. Right. True. True. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of stuff like that. And, and again, I'll plug origins of the

[00:44:45] wheel of time has a glossary of all these and he will, and Michael Livingston will talk about like where all these names came from because it's, it's funny that Tolkien is known as like this great writer who wanted to bring back English culture, like Anglican culture. Um, but, but Robert Jordan pulled way more from Arthurian legends than Tolkien ever did. Yeah. Yeah. And including this calendar, the sword in the stone of Tyr, it's obviously Excalibur from Arthurian legend.

[00:45:13] So, um, and it's also, it's mentioned, it is a, one of the most powerful saangriel. So amplifying your power. And we see, because we can read the subtitles, we see that Matt, um, says in the old tongue, the sword that is not a sword. Mm-hmm. So they don't hear that. Only Matt understands that and us because we have magic subtitle reading abilities. So this is a new thing that they're introducing

[00:45:42] is that Matt has these memories, Matt has this old tongue, and they're changing how he got it from the books. In the books, he, he, uh, you know, that dagger from season one that they kind of like hand waved away. Um, when he gets healed from that, finally, uh, he, he suddenly has all these memories. Right. He has, has the old tongue. Like they healed him so good. He's remembering past lives now. Yeah. Although it's, yeah, it was, it was sort of a two step regaining of the memories.

[00:46:12] Right. Uh, but, but that was what triggered the first step. Hmm. Yeah. And in here it's because he blew the horn and found out, you know, the fact him being a hero of the horn himself is something that's kind of teased, you know, half implied. You can interpret it as you will in the books. And here they explicitly state like, yes, Matt is a hero of the horn. Um, he's yeah, his life is bound to it. And now you see him clinging to it kind of in the

[00:46:40] way that he was clinging to the dagger in the books at this point where he's, yeah, the dagger was a two step healing process. So we saw step one and then I think they're just doing away with step two and they're making it about him and the horn this season instead. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do like Matt as a hero of the horn. I think that's a good change. Uh, again, like you said, it's not really neither confirmed or denied in the books. So, uh, it's, it's good. It's good. I like Matt, you know, he, he has a heroic personality in that he, he is a goofball that can be so serious when he needs to be.

[00:47:11] Right. Yeah. And, and it's important that he, he points out to Nine Eve that he can remember many, many ancient battles in his head. So that's a plot point that will come up. So, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I also want to point out that Elaine tells Rand that she sent a letter to a Terran noble woman who is friends with her mother, who again, her mother is the queen of Andor, another nation further North, closer to Tarvalon. Um, and yeah, so basically a letter of introduction

[00:47:39] saying like, help Rand, the dragon reborn. Um, I don't know if this was the greatest move, Elaine, like, hello, Tyran woman, you are about to be invaded. Good luck. Yeah. Uh, in some way or another, that letter is definitely going to come back. Yeah. We're going to find out. Yeah. Yeah. But I did like her entire, her interaction with Rand, you know, where she, because she has been raised to rule.

[00:48:07] She's been taught about politics her entire life and Rand has not. Rand was raised to be a sheep herder. Right. Exactly. So she says, having power means accepting that any decision which helps some will hurt others. That's the truth of ruling nations. That's a knowing who to trust. So again, yeah, this is another one of those pair up moments where they're laying a foundation of, you know, setting her as someone who Rand might turn to for guidance in this area. Yeah. Political advisor, if you will.

[00:48:37] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's also the one who nudges Rand toward, you know, maybe you want to like gather this aisle army that the aisle keeps saying technically is yours once you learn their ways. It's a, it's a conditional acceptance. Yeah. He's got to go to Roydeon. Oh my God. I can never say it. Roydeon. Yeah. And, um, but they are, they want to have one last day about town.

[00:49:05] So with the group set to either return to the tower or head their separate directions in the morning, almost everyone decides to hit the town for a little last fun. Rand, Matt and Perrin grab drinks with Matt hiring an artist to draw him posing with the horn and images of the story of Rand fighting Ishamiel on top of the tower and foam in last season's finale. Rand can't shake the three aisle maidens of the sphere are Avienda, Bane and Chiad who believe him to be the Ail

[00:49:35] Karakarn, their chief of chiefs and are determined to protect him, especially as he seems a bit like a bumbling idiot to them right now. You know, I, I, I did enjoy this scene. Uh, Avienda sassing Rand. Great stuff. Great stuff. Um, I laughed out loud when Moraine goes, make sure you're careful about what you look like, what you say, what you do.

[00:50:03] And Matt goes, I, Matt Cawthon of the two rivers blowing the horn of Valir, which is waving it around Randall Thor in the sky. Matt. Yeah. But, but neither, neither of the other ones actually like bat an eye at this, which is pretty funny. Like I was like, I thought, I thought one of them at least would have been like, Matt, like let's, let's chill out for a minute. But they're like, yeah, go ahead. Pose with the horn.

[00:50:31] Well, I think because they, we do, they are still the country bumpkins. Like they, they've played down the country bumpkin aspect versus the books. Um, but they are still like, they don't really understand celebrity at this point. Like, I think that that's going to be something that catches up with them as their fame grows. Uh, and obviously having pictures circulating about them in this stuff is not gonna, is definitely gonna do something in that direction.

[00:50:56] But, um, I think they just don't realize, uh, how conspicuous they are. I think that's right. I think that's right. And, um, but, but also they're also being like, bro, like you ever hear, you ever watch Harry Met Your Mother? They have this joke about revertigo. I don't remember. This is, this is this joke that like when you're with friends from like your childhood, you will revert to the person you were as a child. Yeah.

[00:51:25] Like your high school self or something like that. And so I feel like these, these three all get revertigo when they're together. And I loved watching it. Like they, the way that, that Celine, the way they say that together, it was so good. It was so good. And, and this is what I needed. This is what I'm saying. I needed to see like, if we're going to go through hard times together, I need to know why you love each other. Right. And I didn't see that before now as much. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:54] I, I do. I like that Matt has become full Matt, which to be fair, um, he's not full Matt until at least like book three anyway. So. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh, but we see very whiny in book two. Yeah. We get the whole dagger thing. Ugh. I honestly don't mind that they cut that story short. Um, but yeah, we see also an iconic scene. It's in a different place, uh, because Matt's not going to the Iowa waste with them.

[00:52:22] Um, but this maiden's kiss scene is an iconic one from the book. So what's the maiden's kiss story? You want me to recount the maiden's kiss? Yeah. How the game works. I mean, they explained it pretty well in the show is they, they put the spears to your neck and they kiss you. And if you do well, they take the, they take a step back. If you don't do well, you see what happens. So we should take away from this, that Matt's not a great kisser because he had

[00:52:52] blood running down his neck after that. That's right. But I do love when I need that, like ask him like what happened? He goes, gentleman never tells. I do wonder. So there is a character in the books. We've mentioned him before, uh, Gaul. He was an Aiel character who Avian has been given a lot of his parts so far in the story. And I understand they're cutting back on, um, on, on, you know, characters because there's so many in the books.

[00:53:21] Um, a lot of people were sad to see that one in particular go. And he also has an interesting relationship with Bane and Chiad. I wonder if they're going to transfer any of that story to Matt. Yeah, it could be again. Hmm. I got, I got some flack for calling certain characters stories boring on our preview episode. I'm going to, I'm going to add Gaul to my list of characters. I think have kind of boring arcs. Oh, I like Gaul, but I also understand. I mean, but there's, it's funny because there are like characters you can do away with that

[00:53:50] I'll be like, I'll be really upset if there's no Eludra. I'm not going to tell you who she is, but she better show up. Yeah. I would like Eludra to show up, but, but. But I can also understand that, you know, if you're cutting extraneous storylines, but, but yeah, there's got to be also just a case of like fan favorite editedness. Yeah. Yep. Like some characters just need to be there because they're cool. Okay. Look, if I don't get Beldoman speaking in the most ridiculous accent we can find.

[00:54:19] Hey, we, we got it. We got that already last season. I know. I know. I'm saying like, if I don't get more of that. With Egon and who is essential. Yeah. I, I, I got, I got some tweets about that or not tweets. Oh, did you guys about that? Did you? Yeah. I will defend her. Um, but yeah, we also see now parents gone full. Golden Eyes, but we didn't get any references to that because I don't mind if he's like, we saw him struggle with that wolf nature last season.

[00:54:48] I would love to just see him full on embracing it more this season. Yeah. I, I, that is something they could cut down on in the show is this whole like, I don't want it. Yeah. You know, the Jon Snow, I don't want it thing. Refusing the call to adventure. Yeah. That happens for so long for each character in the book. Mm-hmm. And I think we could do with less of that. That is something that I think Robert Jordan milks a little bit too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[00:55:17] Well, meanwhile, while these characters, while these characters are carousing, um, Egwene sticks around to talk to Swan. Swan tells Egwene that if she leaves Tarvalon as a novice without the serpent ring of at least an accepted, she will never be allowed to return. So Egwene demands that she be given her accepted test immediately. And we see her undergo the same process that Naini did last season, entering three successive arches where she will forget herself in different lives and she must make it back out of all

[00:55:47] three to pass the test. We see one arch shows her a world where she's the Amarlin seat and must gentle Rand who has gone mad and killed Perrin and Matt. And we do not see what she experiences in the other two arches, but having passed the test and earned her serpent ring and Egwene informs the Aes Sedai that she will be leaving the city. I could have seen that one coming. Yeah. I was surprised that, um, cause this is one of the things we're like, oh, we have to see Egwene's accepted test.

[00:56:15] And this was one of the ones where like, I was like, oh, they're doing this, this episode already. Just okay. We're moving along. Yeah. They didn't even do an intermediary scene. I don't think. Right. They just went right in. Yeah. Like you saw this last season, you know how this works. Okay. She's done it now too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I liked it. And, you know, I watched this episode twice and I think on second watch, I was, I was even more like enjoying things because I understood what the pace was going to be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's great. It's great. Yeah.

[00:56:44] And the one thing, other thing I would point out about this scene is that, so there are always three sisters there who are, you know, guiding the, uh, testing novice through the test. And so we had Swan, we had Leanne and the third sister they called Alviarin. Mm-hmm. And, um, Alviarin, I'll just say, this is a new sister for the show in the books. She's the only, if you're like, who's in the white Aja? I'm like, Alviarin. And I cannot remember anyone else. Right. Right. So pay attention to Alviarin.

[00:57:14] Fair enough. Yeah. And then, uh, we get our one last round of hookups where the gang, the gang makes use of their last night of freedom to couple up Lan and Nynaeve, Rand and Egwene, and new flirty coupling Elaine and Avienda. I'm like, so I brought this up in the preview episode. You did. You did. You called it. Look, I, I said like, I don't, I don't really care either way. I did. I just didn't read it in the books, but like, no, it's fine. That's fine.

[00:57:42] I mean, I'll just say this is one where, you know, I brought it up in, in the preview episode and there were other people who, you know, in blue sky were agreeing with me that they read it that way in the books. So it's not just like a me thing that these, these characters. No, I believe you. I believe you. Um, I just want to point out, I, I like to call them Elaine Vienda, but other people call them Avi Lane. So just, I, I understand. Neither is good. I like Elaine Vienda. I think it's brilliant.

[00:58:09] And I liked how Elaine echoing Lanfear last season, Elaine, when Avienda kisses her, says finally. Yeah. I, again, like, I think this is fine. I, in general, I think the show could do with less sexing up. Like, I, I don't need Ren to have sex with every single woman he meets. And so far, that's basically what's happened. I mean, that's what happens in the books. Is it? Yes. Yes. No, it is not. No, it is not. Yes. Even random people like.

[00:58:38] He was never intimate with Egwene in the books at this point, I'm going to say. I mean, but that's because they were treated as younger and more naive in general. Um, but they were, they were considered betrothed. Lanfear is an addition. Lanfear is not an addition. She was always in love with him in the book. Yeah, but, but not, but they never did the deed. Sure. At this point. I don't, I feel like you've just been like reading over all the very many sex scenes in the books. They're not. All right. All right.

[00:59:05] Maybe, maybe I need things to be more explicit to, to get it. But I was like, I just, it's not, it's again, I, I'm not objecting to specific couples. I'm just like, why does it? Again, I just think it's the Game of Thrones of vacation. Like, let the show be its own thing. Making a sex scene. I think it's a mistake to assume that adding sex scenes. It is its own thing because it's following the books. It's just being. I just want to say that I think that there is a misconception of these writers that adding

[00:59:35] sex scenes makes a more mature show. And what makes a more mature show is having more complex emotional arrangements and having detailed and, and serious relationships between characters. Yes. Which includes often sex. Yes. But can't only include sex. It doesn't only include sex. Like we were just talking about Matt and Nineve. I'm sorry. Spoiler alert.

[01:00:02] They're not going to have sex, but we got to see a nice bonding moment between. And that's what I mean. Like, I want more of that stuff too is, and more of like the intimacy between the three boys. Um, like I, I, I do think that this show has needed more. I I'm, I'm trying to drill down to what my actual complaint does. My actual complaint is I think the show needs more intimacy total and less sex total. Do you know what I mean? Like we are too focused on physical intimacy and not enough focus on like building the relationships

[01:00:32] between these characters. I understand the point you're making. I just completely disagree with it. Okay. All right. I mean, because I just, and I'm not saying that there's not, there is obvious, there is a world where, you know, we were complaining with, with Dune prophecy that there were sex scenes that just felt thrown in for the sake of sex scenes. And that was, that was an HBO show. Um, but yes, so I definitely, I think that can be a problem, but in this case, particularly

[01:00:58] if, if you were to ask me going in, you're like, Alicia, what's one thing that you, that's from the books that you want to be more explicit in the TV show? I would say Elaine Vienda. Ha, see, I'm saying it. Um, and I would say that even, I would say that. Yeah, I know people say Avi Lane, but I would say Elaine and Avienda even before for me personally, I found that more important than making Moraine and Swan explicit personally, just based on my reading of the books. All right.

[01:01:28] And we'll talk more in the white tower segment, but yeah. All right. That's fine. That's fine. I think we're just going to disagree on this one. I think, um, it's funny because in season two coverage, I definitely got called approved like multiple times in like reviews and emails and that's fine. Like you can disagree with me on this just to me. I think, I think maybe what bothers me is that I put wheel of time more in the category of Tolkien, which is like the most asexual thing you can have. Most of the time there's, there's some implied stuff, but very little.

[01:01:58] Um, and, and so it feels like jarring to me to have this more, I think game of Thrones modernistic grimdark stuff going on. Well, I'm more thinking ahead about, cause I've, to me, there's always a lot of sex in the wheel of time books. And I'm thinking there are some, uh, sexual situations that are uncomfortable. And, uh, so one thing, for instance, there is, I'll say there's a sexual situation that

[01:02:25] comes up later in the books where the fact that people can feel who they're bonded to makes things awkward. And so in the show, they already said like, Oh, well you can shield your bond. So they're skirting that. There's another situation. I think, you know, readers of the books know what I'm, which one I'm talking about. I don't know if they're going to skip it altogether. It involves Matt. Um, Oh yeah. I hope they skip it. Yeah. And so for me, I see all these things because, uh, that, that particular situation with Matt

[01:02:54] is like one of the most discussed things in fandom. So to me, there are sex has always played a large role in this story. Okay. All right. Listen, I'm just going to tell everybody now because I'm sure that everyone is like yelling at me by now in their car. I'm not going to like complain about this all season. So you don't have to, you can write me an email if you want, but you don't have to, you don't have to tell me to stop ranting about it because I will stop on my own. I can be better. Everyone I can, I can improve.

[01:03:20] I will say that, um, there is also jokes people make about Rand panty dropping Al Thor, you know, every girl who meets him is just like, whoop. But yeah, like, that's why I'm like, uh, I don't, I don't need this guy to get with every single woman he meets. But that is him. All right. All right. I'm done complaining. I'm done. My, my rant is over for the season. So one thing they'd added with Elaine's character though, that definitely wasn't in the books,

[01:03:47] but I quite like is that she likes to, she likes to brew cider with a kick. I think that's a fun quirk of her personality in the show. And so we see that again this time. Okay. All right. Fair enough. I, I think they had great chemistry. Mm-hmm. I think the, the two of them had great chemistry. I bought it. I buy it in the show. I was just, all I was saying in our preview was I didn't understand. I didn't, I didn't read that in the book. In the books. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, one thing, definitely a coupling from the books from in, in this show, Lan and

[01:04:17] Nynaeve, and we see this iconic moment where he gives her his family ring and says, I would want no other woman as my queen, Nynaeve, in any life we have lived. Referring, of course, to her remembering them having a whole life and child together, um, in her alternative life in the arches last season. And so did that, did that work for you there? Yeah. Last goodbye. I think so. The, the romance between these two is far better than it was in the book. Yeah. I mean, yeah. In the beginning.

[01:04:45] That's a weakness of Robert Jordan's overall, um, is that he's just not that great at writing romance. Like things, things seem to like suddenly happen. Right. It's true. Um, somebody's like, I just love this person. And you're like, okay. I guess that's a thing now. Yep. Yep. Um, so they're, they're doing a much more gradual. And I, I enjoy that. Yeah. Yeah. And just as a side note, we also, uh, Lan explains to Nynaeve in this, uh, scene that he has this

[01:05:14] sword, uh, from Malky, he's the, again, he's the king of this kingdom of Malkyr. He's uncrowned because the kingdom fell to the blight when he was a baby and he was smuggled out and raised in Shinar, the next, uh, country to the south of that. But he has all these relics of Malkyr because he would have been the king, including the sword, which he points out is power wrought, like the hair and blade sword that Rand used to kill Shamiel in the season two finale. So that's definitely going to come back. Yeah. And those are new things in the show.

[01:05:43] That's not like a thing that her and marked swords are always a power wrought in the books. Right. Heron Mark just meant that you had a certain level of, uh, yeah, you were a sword master. Yeah. Yeah. And this one doesn't have a heron on it, but it is apparently it's a power wrought sword. And this is, yeah, I guess we, I'm not sure if they really made it explicit, but basically a lot of talents like the making of such weapons have been lost. So they can't make more of these types of swords. They have to be very ancient.

[01:06:12] It's very Valyrian steel in Game of Thrones. This is what I was thinking. Yeah. Which came later, which came later. Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. This was a Robert Jordan idea. Um, I mean, I'm sure he got it from somewhere too, but yeah, you're like some like legend or something, but, uh, as all these writers do, I just want to say, and, uh, yeah. So if you want to understand land, he's Aragorn, he's just Aragorn in a lot of ways, um, early on at least. Right. Right.

[01:06:38] And especially this sword, they're kind of making into Narsil all of a sudden. You're like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we talked about the differences between Ren and Egwene in, in the show and they have a more adult relationship, which I personally quite like, but, um, it does, it is creating complications now where Rand is coming across as a bit of a dog where he's like apparently still getting visits from Lanfear in his dreams.

[01:07:04] And when the guys ask about Egwene, he's like, well, we never really talked about it. And, but let me tell you about Selene, this innkeeper from Kyrie. Selene. Sorry. I'm going to do that every time because my God. So we, I thought. But of course he doesn't mention it's Lanfear. Yeah, exactly. Like I thought Rand understood that by the end of last season. Oh, he knows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's just not telling them. Right. Exactly. Which, yeah. I, I, I'm banging a forsaken guys.

[01:07:34] Like the way he would say that. Well, he's also like, he's, he's like, I'm, I'm sleeping with my ex-girlfriend who has PTSD because the other girl I'm banging on the side, who's a forsaken, uh, tried to kill her. So. Right. Right. It's not great. It's not a great look for him. No, no. The Randicule expandicules.

[01:07:58] Um, but that wound, the, the wound in his side, which again comes from, uh, from, yeah, being wounded by Shamaya last season. It, uh, it is looking gnarly. They did a really great job. Like worse than the books. Yeah. Yeah. I, I thought I, I felt, I, I like felt icky looking at it. And I think that's the point. You should feel icky looking at it. It's just this gnarly wound that won't heal. Right. Yeah.

[01:08:27] Because in the books I kind of get like, oh, like it's constantly infected or something like that, which is bad enough. But this one, you, you look at that, you're like, oh no, that's never going to heal. Uh, uh. Yeah. That's just evil. It's like straight up evil spot on your body now. Yeah. Yeah. They did a really good job at that. Yeah. Yikes. Um, any final thoughts on this before we get to the climax of the episode, the second climax of the episode? I don't think so. I, I, uh, I think I've rented long enough.

[01:08:56] I'm going to get so many, please look, feel free to at me. I'm, I'm open to criticism, but, uh, but just know I'm, I'm doing my best here. I'm good. I'm sure there are people out there. I'm sure there are people out there who agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, that look, this is my personal preference. This is my podcast. So this is my personal preference. Why am I Southern all of a sudden? All right, move on. Let's do it. I'll represent the people who are sex positive. No, I'm sorry. Just kidding. I don't mean to ask you.

[01:09:24] You know, it's funny because like other shows, other shows, I'm like fine with it, but the wheel of time for some reason just like jars me every time we do it. Oh, okay. Um, okay. Well, this is a good point to take another quick break and then come back and wrap up the episode.

[01:10:01] All right. We are back to talk about the gray men and bubbles of evil. The good times are interrupted by what book readers might call bubbles of evil with copies of Rand crawling out of mirrors to attack him in a Gawain and Loyal, Perrin and the maidens of the spear attacked by their own weapons and other objects. Meanwhile, as Matt is mes, as Matt is mesmerized by moving playing cards, we later find out we're being controlled by Lanfear, a humanoid creature not controlled by Lanfear,

[01:10:28] a gray man sneaks into the room and stabs Nynaeve several times. Fortunately, the gray man and other mischief is stopped before anyone is killed. Lanfear tells Moraine and Lan that most of the mischief was her doing, trying to scare Rand and his friends into going after the sword and tear, but not the gray man. There is only one person who can make a gray man, Lanfear says. Cut to Magedion, the forsaken who operates softly, softly from the shadows, who has caught

[01:10:57] a white cloak named Jachim Karadin in her web. He has disappointed their dark master and so she forces him to consent to becoming a gray man himself. So what did you think about this iteration of the gray men? I loved it. I mean, we never get to see how the gray men are created in the books. They just kind of show up. So I'm super glad that we're going to, that we get to see the creation of one. I mean, it's so dark and gross, but fitting. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:26] And this is a new thing where they're specifically linked to Magedion, but I'm happy to give Magedion any more plot points they want to give her. Yeah, she can be underused at certain times. I think the forsaken, I think cutting them down is a good idea because then they can have more personality individually. There's eight instead of 13 in the books, yeah. Right. Because some of the forsaken kind of like come and go in the books. And because what are you going to have one forsaken per book?

[01:11:54] Like it's just like kind of, what do you do with all these guys? I understand why he wanted 13. I think it's just hard to balance all of them. Hmm. Yeah. It was also a change a bit to have. So Jai Chim Karadin is a character in the books. He's a dark friend who goes by Bors in the dark friend circle. So like when we saw last season, we saw a bunch of people sitting around in black cloaks and one of them was clearly a white cloak, a white cloak.

[01:12:24] Everyone assumed that that was Bors. Yes, the man known as Bors. The man known as Bors, who's actually this white cloak inquisitor, Jai Chim. But this is new that he's being made into a gray man. And I do wonder if they're changing, like how conscious is he at this point? It seems like his mind is gone. So obviously, I mean, I guess it makes sense. You know, they're not going to do the same thing with his whole story because obviously

[01:12:51] they just don't have enough time to do all of the characters and all their stories. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fine. I won't miss him. Yeah. I mean, I guess we're still going to see him get up to stuff, but I just wonder how much the because the thing in the books is mostly like the gray men are these mysterious assassins that are hard to see unless you're like really focused on them. So that makes them they can slip into places and, you know, they're hard to stop. But it looks like it might be a little bit different for the show. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:21] Yeah. I think that's fine. I think that's fine. I'm I'm I enjoyed the portrayal. I think it was it was fitting. Yeah. So about this bubble of evil, there wasn't a bubble of evil. Should we tell Marilyn not to watch this episode? I think she could take it. I it's it's not great, but it's it's not the worst thing I've ever seen either. Hmm. This is a Pukila plus one. You think? Oh, my gosh.

[01:13:49] When when he caught the axe between his fingers, I yelled out, oh, shit. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Maybe plus two. We'll give her a plus two. I don't know. And yeah, we should point out that we also see him that shattered his wedding ring. I only caught that on the second watch and he's looking at a shattered wedding ring later. Hmm. Time to move on, Perrin. Yeah, it is. I mean, maybe that's what it's trying to tell him, right? Hmm.

[01:14:18] That's what that's what Lanfear is trying to tell him, at least. What bothered me, though, is that it seems like Moraine and Lan were in on this. Like they we see them listening until finally Nynaeve is calling out and then Lan goes running. Um, because again, Nynaeve, that part was not part of the plan. A gray man was not supposed to come in and stab her. That was Mogedion. But all the other stuff that was Lanfear doing it on purpose and true.

[01:14:42] Nobody died because they conveniently have a bunch of people with magical healing properties right there on the property. Mm-hmm. Um, but they could have. Like Perrin took an axe to the gut and Chiad was nearly decapitated by that same axe. I know. Until Loel saved her. Like people really could have died. Yeah. She, look, you trust Lanfear.

[01:15:06] Like I, and I think that that was one of the things that I actually didn't think that book Moraine would have ever done is say like, let's go trust Lanfear for a night. Right. Especially, especially because it seems like they knew they were going to try. She was going to do some kind of scare tactic. Mm-hmm. You're going to hire the forsaken to like rough them up a little bit. Are you kidding? I mean, the only person that who Lanfear is motivated to protect is Rand. Right. Right. So, oops. She wouldn't have cared if Chiad died.

[01:15:36] Exactly. Exactly. Oopsies. Yeah. Oops. Yeah. That's what we call a whoopsie daisies, Maureen. Yeah. I'm not sure. I mean, I kind of like Maureen and Lanfear working together more in the books. It will also, we know from the previews that there's going to be conflict between them. Sets it up nicely. But, yeah, I don't know that I buy that Maureen would just sit through all that yelling. No, I don't either.

[01:16:04] I think at some point she'd be like, all right, that's enough. That's enough. We don't need this anymore. And we do also see that Rand's channeling is starting to already look pretty corrupted. And he's having a hard time letting it go. So, that's dangerous. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And that brings us to the end of the episode, where the next morning, the party parts ways.

[01:16:32] Rand refuses to go to Tyr, saying that he needs to first go to the Aeol Waste and become the Karakarn and gather his army of Aeol. Aguain says she will follow him, and Maureen and Lan will as well, as well as Avienda to guard slash watch the Karakarn, of course. And Nynaeve wants to stay at the tower to try to work through her channeling block. Elaine can't leave either. She's still a novice.

[01:16:57] And Matt wants to stay as well to get answers about his attachment to the horn and the ancient memories that are now crowding his head. Perrin, though, he just wants to go home. He wants to go back to the two rivers. And Loyal wants to go with him. And Chiad says she will follow Loyal as she owes him a life debt, and Bane will go wherever Chiad goes. No sign of Min, though, this episode. No sign of Min.

[01:17:22] Can I ask you, did you understand that they're giving the accepted a lot more freedom in this? Yeah. In the books? The books, sure, you can leave the White Tower, but you can't just nope out and not listen to the Amaralyn Seat. Yeah. You don't have complete autonomy. It isn't accepted. No, it's true. Not even as an Aes Sedai can you directly disobey the Amaralyn Seat. I think it was just, how do we get Egwene out of here ASAP? Because we got to get this story on the road.

[01:17:51] Yeah, and Swan really fell for it with like, you can't leave. You don't have the ring. All right, I'll go back on the condition that you give me the ring. Well, now I've got the ring. Goodbye. Yeah, I don't know if I really thought that Swan was that dumb. Yeah. I mean, I guess, what is her choice really though? Because of Egwene's attachment to Rand, they really do need Egwene. Yeah.

[01:18:21] At the time. And she's powerful too. And she's powerful, yeah. They make very clear in the books, like had Nynaeve not existed, Egwene probably would have been the most powerful. Yeah. Like Egwene, so powerful. Nynaeve is the greatest channeler in a century. I almost think of them as like the difference between an Angraal and a San Angraal. Mm-hmm. You know, like another order of magnitude up from Egwene. Like Egwene is an order of magnitude more powerful than the other Aes Sedai. And then Nynaeve is another order above that. Yeah.

[01:18:51] Yeah, I mean, I would say Nynaeve is like Lanfear level. Yeah. But she can't control it and Lanfear very much can. Right, exactly. And that's the big point, right? Is that we have all these evil figures that are from the Age of Legends that have those memories, that have all these like trained abilities that it's not even like Nynaeve can learn these abilities easily. Right. They're forgotten in her time. Right. So, how is she going to compete with these people? Right.

[01:19:18] Like we got a tease last season that Lanfear can somehow get around more quickly than even the Waze. Right, exactly. So, I think we're going to learn more about, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she can go into dreams, right? Like that's a whole other thing. Yes. Yeah. We're definitely going to, I'm looking forward to, we got the tease last season about the Teleron Riyadh, the world of dreams, and that's definitely something that we're going to explore more this season. I'm excited about that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:45] And Teleron Riyadh, I think, is one of the most unique parts of the Wheel of Time. Like it's one of the standout aspects of this world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we get also another tease for a major thing that we're looking forward to this season where Avienda has warned Rand that in the Isle Waste, he will have to face the trial of Ruidian. And so, the Waste again is the desert. It's not like, not to be confused with the Blight, which is where, you know, what has swallowed Malkir.

[01:20:15] But the Waste is basically a desert where the Isle have exiled themselves for reasons. So, I'm looking forward to exploring that. And it was very on point for Matt to say his goodbyes with a penis joke about the White Tower. That was really good. I laughed out loud at that. I was like, all right, all right, we got Matt back. Yeah. The one thing I think we didn't really talk about this episode was how Maureen gets kind of a talking to from Varin of like,

[01:20:44] you might think that you control Rand, but you don't anymore. Like, he is going to fulfill the prophecies. And you're not going to be able to expect how he's going to do it. And I think that that's going to be so important. I feel like that's going to be Maureen's journey this season, is just to sort of figure out her new power balance with Rand. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and that definitely echoes this point in the books where it's like, because it's not even just that Rand is so powerful,

[01:21:11] but he is just a really stubborn personality. He has been in his entire life that's just fundamental to who he is as a person. Right, and it's Taviran, so things will bend around him. He's like the most powerful Taviran ever, ever. Right. So things just bend around him in a way that Maureen can't control. Right. Yeah, she cannot control him, so how does she find a way to influence him despite all of this? Right. Yep. Right. Yeah.

[01:21:39] Well, any final episodes? Sorry, any final thoughts on the episode? Obviously, we'll come back after the outro music and talk a little bit more about book spoilers, but any final non-spoiler thoughts? I think it was a great episode. Like, I don't know what else to say. Strong start. Very strong starts of season two. If we can keep up this pace, I think we're going to get through like six books this season. And I really am very impressed with this team.

[01:22:06] I think that they, you know, as I said, I think they started at a weak point of season one, but I know you disagree. And I think that every season has been improving and they are finally at a place where they're operating at a really, a really high level. Yeah. I agree with you that it's been getting better and better every season. I think that's also true of the books. And also, I just think this, yeah, this team is finding their way.

[01:22:33] And I feel like after the first season, they were also given more leeway to find their way. And, you know, we've talked so much about COVID. But, yeah, I think, I hope that everyone listening, if you like this show, please get everyone, you know, to watch this show because we want them to complete the entire story. Yeah, I'm very afraid of cancellation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an expensive show and they need, and it's just been a period of cancellations everywhere.

[01:23:01] So we just really need strong numbers for this. So make everyone, you know, watch it twice. Fair enough. Fair enough. And also, yeah, if you enjoyed this episode, please do share this with other people who are Wheel of Time fans or who you want to be Wheel of Time fans. And you can leave us nice reviews that mention the Wheel of Time. That also helps us. You can complain in the reviews.

[01:23:26] As long as it's five stars, you can yell at me about my position on the Randicules. Yes. So you can, yeah. Elaine Vienda for the win. I'm fine with it in the show. I just want to make, listen, I want to make clear, I am fine with it in the show. I was just saying I didn't read it in the book. Okay. It's working for me. It's working for me now.

[01:23:50] So we do have a Wheel of Time Season 3 Season Pass set up. So that is a one-time fee. If you don't want to do the whole subscription thing, but you want our extra lower cast, you want to listen to the episodes ad-free, you want access to the show guide, then all of this is included in a one-time $10 Season 3 Wheel of Time Pass.

[01:24:17] And we're going to throw in also the last season's episodes too, so that you can listen to all that in one place, no ads and all that. Of course, subscribers get all of that anyway, plus a bunch of extras, like the extra Severance episodes, like our extra Elevensies episodes this month. It looks like there's a dead heat in the voting between Scott Pilgrim and Zoolander for this month's Elevensies. Oh, I haven't looked at it in a few days,

[01:24:44] but I did see the back and forth going on. It's very exciting. So subscribers, if you haven't voted yet, you can determine whether we're doing Scott Pilgrim or Zoolander this month. And I stupidly put up My Sister's Keeper. I was like, I don't know, let's give people a sad option too, since we have two silly movies. It has, I think, one vote, two votes. Well, that's more than, remember when I did Teen Witch and it got zero votes? Oh, gosh.

[01:25:14] Okay, so Scott Pilgrim is ahead by one vote right now. Okay, okay. Very close, very close. Yeah. I'm reading all the Scott Pilgrim books just because I always meant to anyway, so just in case I'm reading them. But then on the other side, David's never seen Zoolander, so, hmm. Yeah. Hmm. That's true. That's true. Both, I think, would be a lot of fun. Yeah. And I will say, subscribers, you also just recently got an extra Daredevil prep episodes

[01:25:40] where Jaune and I looked back on the Netflix series and kind of recapped those to set up for this one. And also, lots of stuff going on in the public feed. What's going on in the public feed right now? A lot of stuff. I just put out a Silmarillion story, so that was a lot of fun. David and I just recorded a Star Wars film fest, which I think is going to come out just after this episode. Like, it's going to come out the Monday after this episode.

[01:26:06] And before this episode, Lorehounds play on the Indiana Jones game that came out in December is going to post. So, plenty of bonus episodes. I know David and I are also going to do a mid-season for White Lotus. Are you coming on that, Alicia? Do you want on White Lotus with us? Yeah, if it works out. I'm definitely all in on the White Lotus stuff, so. All right, all right. Yeah, we'll see how it works out, because also, Daredevil's going on right now.

[01:26:33] So, Jean and I will have, before this, we'll have our reaction to the first two episodes that just came out as we're recording. And we're going to be covering Daredevil. Just, I mean, we would love to do it weekly, but it's just such a crunch time that we're going to end up doing every two to three episodes together, similar to what we did with the Penguin. Yeah, which I think was fine. I think that worked out. So, this will be good. I wanted to watch it last night, but I was like, I should probably re-watch The Wheel of Time. So, I did. I did.

[01:27:02] And I'm glad I did, because it was more fresh for me this morning. Right. But, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to try to catch up on Daredevil this weekend. Yeah. I mean, I think it was a strong start to the season, the first two episodes. So, I'm looking forward to seeing where it's going. Yeah, we're going to, we have full coverage of Wheel of Time, obviously. Full coverage. You guys are doing weekly breakdowns of The Last of Us? Yes, we are when that comes out. Yeah. I mean, I love The Last of Us games. I loved season one. I'm really looking forward to season two. Yeah.

[01:27:32] Yeah. And Andor is, they're doing that annoying release schedule. So, we're coming up with a, you had a great idea for a plan to sort of deal with the fact that you're going to drop three episodes a week. Yeah, I, so I want to like announce that as like a fanfare thing of what we're going to do. Okay. I want to like do like a cutesy promo. So, yeah. So, hold off on how we're going to do it. Lips zipped. And then also, Doctor Who is coming out in April too. So, we're figuring that out.

[01:28:01] But unfortunately, that probably means that Doctor Who is not getting weekly episode coverage this time because it's just too much. Well, last time we weren't even going to do weekly episodes and we were like, ah, we're having fun. Let's keep going. We'll see what happens this time. Yeah. But we might have an extra British voice joining us. That's true. That's true. Hmm. Hmm. But yeah. Also, do explore the link tree in the show notes where you can check out all the affiliates.

[01:28:28] Radioactive Ramblings is currently doing weekly coverage of Invincible. Also, of course, My Will Shift Dust and the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. What are you doing over there? Because every podcast I record lately, I'm like, I don't know what Alicia's doing next, but I'm sure it's something good. Dune. You are doing Dune. Okay. Yeah. So, we're doing the book breakdown. Like, we're doing big detail on the original book breakdown in the public feed just because that's the basis for everything else.

[01:28:57] And then, you know, going through the adaptations thereof. Maybe I'll write in since I'm actually a Dune reader now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're, yeah. Well, if you want to join for any of the episodes about any of the adaptations. All right. Let's talk. Let's talk. Yeah. Yeah. David joined for the first part of the book breakdown. So. Oh, good. That's fun. Mm-hmm. And of course, there's also the separate Severance feed and there's a discounted season pass for the extra episodes for that.

[01:29:26] And in the link tree, also Discord where we have Wheel of Time chat going strong under current shows and chats for all these other things too. And if you want to send your feedback, I guess we haven't really talked much about this, but I guess we'll end up doing sporadic feedback episodes for the Wheel of Time. Yeah. I think we're going to have to do it that way because we're going to be pre-recording a lot of these. Yeah. Just because of scheduling. Like if we don't, if we do not get ahead on this, we're not going to survive Andor. No. So we got to do this. So. Yeah.

[01:29:56] We're going to be ahead on the recording. Again, we're not watching ahead. Right. Of what we're recording. We'll do like a mid-season probably on feedback. We'll see how much feedback we get and we'll discuss it, Cadence. So send it to Watt at the Lorehounds dot com, W-O-T at the Lorehounds dot com. And yeah, we'll put together some feedback episodes. Do you want to read the names? The reading of the names.

[01:30:22] The reading of the names from the White Tower archives. Sure. We have our Discord server boosters, which we like to thank. Aaron K, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Dove 71, Athena Agilea, Tina Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard. Then our Loremasters, our top tier subscribers on Patreon and Supercast. Who, by the way, if you're recurring, you get all of our bonus content, not just the Wheel of Time. Mm-hmm.

[01:31:21] Scott F., Stephen N., Julia F., Kali S., Ilmariel, and Adrian. Thank you, everyone, for your support. It always helps us do more covers and go crazy with all our wacky plans for the spring. And just to, of course, if you want all the spoilers from the books, stick around until after the music. But to wrap up this episode for most of you who don't want the book spoilers, I'll just say,

[01:31:50] The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again and finally brings us season three. In one age called the third season by some, an age yet to come, an age long past, a wind rose in the mountains of mist. The wind was not a beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time, but it was a beginning.

[01:32:19] I love it. I love it. We did it. We've written a new Wheel of Time novel. All right. All right. Bye, everyone. See you next time. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash thelorehounds.

[01:32:45] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. All right. Still around. All information discussed from this point on is sealed to the hall of the tower. It includes spoilers for all of the books all the way up to the end. So do make sure you have the proper authorization to sit in on this meeting. That's right. If you're not a sitter. If you're not a sitter. You have to step out. There's no other option. You have to wait outside the hall.

[01:33:16] So let's start with that door. So this means, I guess we're getting the elf in, the foxes and the snakes? Yeah. I could see them subverting it a little bit still, but I think we're getting some kind of thing like that. It was a relief. It was a relief because I was worried. Yeah. It is one of the weirder things. Yeah. It's one of those things where it's a fan favorite thing, but it could be cut. But then again, it is so important to Moraine's arc and Matt's arc, especially those two. Lanfear.

[01:33:45] Even Ren, I think, gets a lot of insight from it. Mm-hmm. That's true. That's true. One thing we knew was coming this season, and I'm very excited to see play out, is the Battle of the Two Rivers. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's going to be really fun. And when I say fun, I mean brutal and horrific, but also beautiful to watch. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:10] And you had something in the notes about how I've been dying will lead to Alana bonding Rand. But I guess that must happen next season because she's going to Two Rivers, we know from the promos and the posters. Yeah. I think it does happen in book five or six with Alana and Rand. So that would make sense to me. But I do think that this grief is going to fuel her bonding Rand forcibly.

[01:34:37] And that has been, you know, in the book they make very clear this is a violation. This is like a really serious, like the other sisters even look very much down on her when they find out she did this. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I do wonder why they had, if they killed him off earlier because the actor couldn't return. Because she does lose a warder in the Battle of the Two Rivers, but now she's losing a warder at the beginning of the season too. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:35:04] I forgot that she lost a warder in the Battle of the Two Rivers, so interesting. You know, they never really make clear if Alana is Black Aja in the books. I think she's not. But I think they make it clear that she's not. Really? I never saw a suggestion that she was, personally. I think the forcible bonding, Varin questions it at some point, I believe. She's like, is Alana really? You know, like, Varin goes through this, like, questioning thing with her.

[01:35:31] Which she does with multiple people because, you know, she's testing people in general. Yeah. Because Varin is Black Aja. So, sorry. This is spoiler zone, we said. Right, right. This is all the books. But anyway, yeah. I think I'll be interested to see if they make Alana be Black Aja in this. I would not like that. Because I think, because this also comes down to where, you know, the whole discussion of just because someone does bad things, it doesn't mean that they're sworn to the dark.

[01:35:59] It's just that people do bad things. Yeah, no, I agree with that. But also, Alana's motivations are kind of opaque at times in the books. I think they're developing her a lot better in the show. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I do think that they're developing her a lot better. She was, like, she was one, she was a character I always found interesting in the books. But now, in the show, she's probably one of my favorite characters. Yeah, she's very cool in the show.

[01:36:29] I think she's much, much more interesting in the show. Yeah, there's also the, so we set up the propaganda pictures, which we know, like, this becomes a thing with especially Rand fighting on top of the tower. Pictures went around of him fighting in the sky with the Shamayal. So, and we know that we met a character last season from, a Shinaren, Masama.

[01:36:54] And he becomes the prophet of the Dragon Reborn because of all these, you know, he was there in Falm. He saw what happened and, you know, all this, these images going around, stories are starting. So, yeah, we're going to see that fame blow up in a way that I don't think the boys are going to like. I would not be upset if they cut the prophet storyline entirely. Why? I think it's the most boring spotlight. What does it do in the end? He just kind of like dies unceremoniously.

[01:37:25] I mean, I think in a lot of cases they can streamline a lot of these plots. Yeah. I'm just like, what did that amount to? And I don't think it amounted to much. Hmm. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, so yeah, you mentioned already, you said before the Randicule, Expandicules. Yeah. But I don't think so. I think that they're just making the Elaine-Avienda connection, the sexual side of it more explicit. Whereas I always assume that was such in the books.

[01:37:54] These two girls have a special bond. They become first sisters. Um, just like Bane and Chiad are first sisters. And I always looked at them also like, hmm. I did get that from Bane and Chiad in the books. Okay. Just not, not from, uh, Elaine and Avienda. Okay. Yeah. They always had a special bond beyond. And I, I just think it, in terms of, you know, Rand, Penny Dropper, Al Thor.

[01:38:20] Um, I just, if, if he is going to have the polycule like he does in, in the books, I want it to be more even where it's not just like everybody's focused on Rand, you know? Yeah. Where people have their own relationships. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's right. I, I think it's fine to, I don't think that they develop the Avienda-Ellene friendship even enough at the, in the early books.

[01:38:47] Because they're all of a sudden, Avienda is like obsessed with Elaine. And you're like, well, what, why, why though? Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. In the books, a lot of these things just happen suddenly. Exactly. And, and that's a criticism of like all the romance in those books, basically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do wonder if it's all going to play out the same way or if they're going to add more complications. It does seem like they're setting up Rand with the whole Lanphier and Egwene thing to be like,

[01:39:17] I don't want to be tied down. Who wants labels? Who wants just, you know, one relationship? Oh my God. Rand, can I just say like, in a lot of ways, Rand is a very good guy. And in some ways he just straight up sucks. Yeah. Uh-huh. Which makes him an interesting character, but for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah. So that band that Naomi took off with, I'm assuming that that's the domination band, which is the male Adam, which is so they.

[01:39:47] Oh, you think so? Uh-huh. So the black Aja wants it because they want to collar the dragon reborn, basically. Like, like we saw Egwene last season, but. Yeah. Well, that was in Tantico already though, in the book. So I'm wondering, yeah. But most of the, most of, in the books, most of the Terran Greal they took were Dreamot Terran Greal. Mm-hmm. I'm sure that's in there too. And we saw that statue that I think is a Saan Greal that we see in the books. Um.

[01:40:16] You think that's the, the female or male, like big one? Uh-huh. The Chodunkal? Yeah. Maybe. Well, we do see Moraine with a, uh, an orb in the previews that I'm assuming is linked to that. So. Yeah. The only other statue I can think of is, um, you know, Rand has like the, the statue of the little man that like helps him get the edge in the fight with Asmodian. That seems to have, have disappeared after the first season. Yeah.

[01:40:46] Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe, maybe he'll find it in a, in a coat, you know, it's in my other pants. Yeah. Wow. Um, I, I do predict, I think that they have to do next episode, the whole stick fight with Matt. And I think they're going to introduce the Camelon crew, um, and do the whole stick fight because they got to get those, those people out of there. A bunch of them are going to Chanchico. So. Yeah.

[01:41:13] I, I, I think we gotta, we gotta move fast now in, uh, Tarvalon. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm really excited about the next episode because I've been really looking forward to all the Camelon characters coming in and I've been really looking forward to that stick fight, um, where Matt beats up the princes. Yeah. That's one of the best ones. I love when they're, uh, when the guy lectures up afterwards and he's like, this greatest swordsman of all time, what's the one time he lost? Yeah. And they're like, I didn't read that chapter in history.

[01:41:43] Yeah. Like don't underestimate a farmer with a stat with a bow staff. And I actually wanted to, because of that, uh, in the books, I've always wanted to learn to fight with, with a staff like that, especially because I'm, I'm very short and, um, I want to be able to have a weapon that can keep people at a distance. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. You're going to have a bow staff now. Yeah. I mean, I always wanted to learn. I still haven't, but it's still on my bucket list.

[01:42:12] I took karate classes like Okinawan karate classes for a while in high school and they did some bow staff stuff and I was like, I am too clumsy for this. And so I stopped. I figure it would help me with us, but yeah. Um, and I think when, do you think we're getting the tower split this season and when? I think it'll be towards the end of the season, but yes, that does happen.

[01:42:38] Do you think Swan will survive in the TV version? I could see it either way. I'm leaning towards no. Yeah. But, and I think that's exciting. Like we have an actual stake here where book readers can, can go like, all right, the pot armor off. Yeah. Like, look, obviously Ren has pot armor. Like the Emmonsfield five all has pot armor. But other than that, I think we are much more loosey goosey with this. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

[01:43:05] And, and I think, you know, Sophie Okinaida, she is just a very busy actress. So I can see, you know, maybe she doesn't have all that much time to keep going, but also, um, I just think it becomes more interesting for Leanne if she carries that part of the story by herself, considering it's a TV show and they have to pare down on things. Right. Yeah. I think, I think that'd be good. She also, I think does a more interesting thing with her new life after, after stealing.

[01:43:34] Like she goes like, I'm going to find a completely new personality. Uh, I'm going to like get back in touch with who I was before the white tower. And I think that's more interesting than what Swan does, which is like, all right, same mission, but no powers. Right. Right. And since they made, you know, this, this romance between Moraine and Swan, um, it's implied that that stops, you know, once they start chasing after the dragon, but they continued it in the TV version, which I support.

[01:44:02] But then that means that, um, for Moraine's story to go places it needs to go, they can't always have that, you know, these estranged lovers thing that they've been stretching out for two seasons. So, um. If Moraine doesn't end up with Tom Marilyn, I will shed no tears. I've never felt it. I've never thought that that was a reasonable thing. In the books? No, but they made him hot in the TV show. And I think they did that for a reason. But I, I don't want to complain about Tom Marilyn in the TV show right now.

[01:44:31] I know a lot of, you're, you're definitely not alone in complaining about that. But yeah, I do like the TV, Tom. Where's his fucking coat? It's where patches on the inside. Where is the coat? And where is his whimsy? Like, there's no, like, he, he does have a darkness to him in the book, but he also has this other side to him that's like this gleeman, right? Like, he's not a gleeman. He's just like a, an early 2000s folk singer. Well, he's coming back this season.

[01:45:00] So it will be interesting to see how that's dealt with. I did. The one thing I really missed in season two were the songs because we got two banger songs in season one. One from him and one from the Emmonsfield five. And apparently. I didn't like a song, but it's fine. It's fine. I loved it. I loved it. You can go to my YouTube channel and hear me and did I, Jedi Bob covering it. So that's how much I liked it.

[01:45:27] Um, but yeah, it's, uh, apparently we will get at least one episode with some music, which is reflective of the books. Like the songs are an important part of the book. So I missed that last season and I look forward to having him back. There was a scheduling conflict last season, but, uh, I'm glad. Was that what it was? Yeah. Because I thought we were going to have more Tom last season. Yeah. I, again, Tom, I think is another symptom of what I call the game of game of thrones of vacation of this show.

[01:45:56] Uh, this, this like everything has to be dark and everything has to be dirty and everything has to be sad. And I'm like, we're, we're moving away from that. So I hope that they do the same thing with Tom. He's a little goofy in the books. And honestly, I don't mind them toning that down. No, you need the goofiness though. You need the goofiness. At times. Having, having, again, like it's Matt, like you need these characters who like can be goofy, but also can be very serious.

[01:46:23] And I think that that, I, I say this as someone who I, who kind of embodies that sometimes. Like, um, I like to be represented. I like, I like to be represented as somebody who can be glib, but also can take things seriously. Sure. And, and they're doing a good job with that with Matt now. Um, I'm hoping they do the same with Tom, but the thing is in, in the books. It was like Robert Jordan did try to sell Tom as sexy at certain points. Like at one point there's even Elaine's even hitting on him, which I'm like, ick. Yeah.

[01:46:53] No, don't do that. He was sleeping with her mom, but, um, which is yeah. Ick. Um, but at least now I see that side, why he would have turned the head of a queen if they continue with that story. Why, you know, he would turn the head of Moraine. Why, you know, it all makes more sense with this Tom for me, but I understand a lot of people feel the same way you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But how, what do you think of this version of Mogidium?

[01:47:23] Oh, killer. Great stuff. I mean, she, they make clear right away in the books. Like she's also a coward. I don't think we've gotten that yet, but I, I like, you have to set the power level before you're like, oh, but also she has these weaknesses of personality. I mean, but the thing is, is she a coward or is it in a way like she's, she's a, she's a rogue, you know, she's like, like in, um, um, dungeons and dragons terms, you know, rogues

[01:47:50] should operate from the shadows because they are more physically weak and their strength is hiding and sneaking and surprising. And that is, that's Mogidium softly, softly from the shadows. So she did say in, when she was introduced last season, she was like, yeah, land fear, you are calling me a coward, but that's not the way I interpret it is, is you're calling me a coward, but that's not what it is. I'm just smart. I'm smarter than you land fear. I'm pretty sure most cowards would not call themselves cowards.

[01:48:18] So, um, I think she is, I never thought she was in the books. Okay. I think she, she doesn't take calculated risks. She, she only does things when she is certain she will succeed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's, there's something to be said for that, but also I think what is life without taking some risks? Hmm. Well, we'll see how this plays out. It's interesting. They gave her this ability, the only one who can make the gray men. So that gives her an extra thing, an extra tool in her tool belt.

[01:48:48] And that makes sense for her character, right? Like if she's doing it from the shadows and I love the way, like if she's the spider, like this is what happens in her web. Right. Yeah. She literally hangs them up in a web web of power. Yeah. Um, so we know we said there's going to be eight forsaken rather than the 13 in the books. And so we've already gotten Ishamiel already dead, but he was in, he was on one of the posters. Was he? I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Oh, okay. In the back.

[01:49:18] Um, so that's interesting because he does get reincarnated in the book. But I don't know. We'll see how they handle that. Um, yeah. Reincarnated in a completely different look though. Exactly. Exactly. So no one recognizes him, but yeah. So let's just say he's off the table for now. Uh, we've already met Lanphier. We've met Mogedion. We've had Grandal and Samael name dropped. And then we know there's three more that are not yet confirmed in the show, but we do

[01:49:44] know that Lord Gabriel has been cast and is part of the Camelin plot. So that's Robin, another forsaken. And I'm wondering if Gareth Byrne is going to be folded into Lord Gabriel. Bryn? Gareth Byrne. Yeah. Sorry, Bryn. That's all right. I look, we get so many reviews about our pronunciation that I, now I like try to jump up if I hear something. I, I got a bad review though, for correcting pronunciation. And, uh, I know. So we're never going to please everyone. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:50:14] Yeah. So now, uh, we're going to get like two separate bad reviews of like Alicia pronounce Gareth Bryn correctly. John, stop correcting Alicia. Alicia. We're doing, we're doing our best, especially, I mean, I know I'll lean on you for pronunciations more because you listen to the audio books. I have read the, uh, the, you know, the back, uh, the glossary and the pronunciations there, but, um, my brain does what it wants to do with these names. Yeah. I hear you.

[01:50:43] I heard, I heard a couple of things today that I almost corrected. And then I was like, let's, let's just let it shine. I think you said Sheenar. Okay. Sure. That's, I look, that's, I'm just telling you, that's what they do with the audio books. In my head, it's Sheenar and Shinear. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, uh, what was it? I was going to say, I read, I read the books through on Kindle first or actually part, part physical, part Kindle. And then I went back and I did the audio books on a subsequent. Yeah.

[01:51:12] Well, as you pointed out, even within the show, like they pronounce Moraine's name five different ways. They do. It's like Moraine, Moiraine, Moiraine. Yeah. Like pick one. But to be fair, people pronounce on this very podcast, people pronounce my names five different ways. So that's just normal. That is how people do. That's true. Well, if I do it wrong, you tell me. Okay. I have a good, I have a healthy tolerance for how my name is pronounced.

[01:51:40] Um, but yeah, so that leaves two forsaken up in the air. So one, we know from the statues we've seen, one's going to be female. So that leaves either Semeridge or Masana and Semeridge is one who's embedded in the Shantan and Masana is one who's embedded in the tower. I personally think it's more interesting to have Semeridge on the Shantan side. Completely agree. At this point. Much better plot line. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:52:07] And we, we have so much already with Black, uh, Aja and the tower that, uh, yeah. That would be. I think Landfuhrer could do exactly what, what Masana did and it would not change a thing. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And then, and then, uh, one more male. So I think we already know Bethamil and Agenor, they're, they're gone. They were never going to be in the TV show and that is as it should be. Yeah. I think we can also write off Belal is just another one of the side forsaken who can be

[01:52:36] easily folded into one of the others. Um, so that leaves for the last one. Is it going to be Demandred or is it going to be Asmodian? You got Demandred, I think, because you have to work him in with the Sharans. You have to have him get back. Although we know that Robert Jordan originally planned for, uh, Masram Taim to be Demandred. And so I wonder if the show, and I think it would have been better by the way. I think it would have been way better if he would have kept with it.

[01:53:02] He changed it because fans figured it out, but like, I don't know. I think that's kind of cheap. I don't, I think that was a mistake on his part. So I wonder if the show will bring it back. I would be fine with that. No, that I think that would make sense. And by the way, speaking of pronunciations, I noticed last season, I always call them Masram Taim in my head or Taim in my head, but they called them Taim last season. Oh yeah. It's my, I always said Masram Taim. Okay. Um, but yeah, I think that that would make the most sense.

[01:53:28] And I think Asmodian, I know everyone wants Asmodian to be in it because like every time there's a new casting announcement, they're like, does he play an instrument? Is it Asmodian? But I think the biggest thing Asmodian does is he trains Rand. And I think that they are rightfully, they've been setting up, giving that plot to Loghain, which just makes more sense because Loghain's a more central character and yeah, it sets up his later storylines better. Yeah.

[01:53:55] Cause again, Loghain like nopes out of the books for a while and then he comes back. I think it's much better to be consolidating these characters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I want, I want them to do more with Shara in general, assuming we make it to the later seasons. Yeah. I mean, they either have to do more with it or they have to cut it. It does. It's, it really is almost like a, a Deus ex devila. I don't know. Like it's, it's, uh, it just comes out of nowhere. Devila ex machina. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:54:25] Oh yeah. That's right. I definitely flipped that whole thing. Um, yeah, I, I think that the Demondred felt really out of nowhere in, um, in the books. I, I think that was one of the weaker changes. So I think, uh, they should, they should make Mazrim time Demondred. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm happy with that. Um, and yeah. And I think we should just remind people that just because we had the black tower of the black Aja reveal and the tower doesn't mean that the black Aja is done with the tower because

[01:54:54] again, they very firmly said the name Alviaren who was there at Egwene's testing. So she's not only black Aja in the book, she was the head of the black Aja if I remember correctly. She was, yeah, she was at least very high ranking. Mm-hmm. Um, but then she of course had to listen to Masana anyway. Right. Right. Yeah. But I mean, just give her Masana's plot or, you know, I don't know. Or maybe she already is. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see.

[01:55:25] I don't mind them, you know, combining their, so there are hundreds of characters literally in the book. So it makes a lot of sense for them to combine a few of these plot lines. Yep. Yeah. I'm with it. I'm with it. They're doing a good job on the adaptation versus inspiration meter. I think they're in a good spot right now. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I'm very excited that later today I can press play on season two. And I'm sorry to listeners at home that episode two. Episode two. Yes.

[01:55:54] And season two always. Yeah. I agree. Well, you don't have to apologize to the people at home because they can also go to episode two. Oh, that's true. The first three episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to figure out after watching episode two, if we're going to cover two and three together or separately. Yep. All right. Well, let's go do it. All right. Let's do that. Well, thank you everyone for hanging out with us until the end. And we want to hear your book spoiler thoughts as well. If you want to send those to watt at the lowerhounds.com.

[01:56:23] We're both book readers, so you don't have to worry about spoiling us. We'll just talk about that in a special, special spoiler cast in the feedback episode. That's right. All right. Spoiler section. Well, we will see you on the next episode. Bye. Hey, everyone. David here. Severance is back. The lowerhounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of season two.

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