The Wheel of Time - S03E07 - Goldeneyes

[00:00:01] Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Bass has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark. I'm a real person. Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes! I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music Podcast. Where one psychologist... ...and one musician... ...deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move. And who could forget the crossroads? Is it THE crossroads or THE crossroads?

[00:00:29] Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:55] Hello and welcome to the Lorehounds coverage of The Wheel of Time Season 3 Episode 7, Golden Eyes. I'm Alicia, the wolf inside Perrin's head. And I'm John, a white cloak and definitely not a dark friend. For most of the episode, there will be spoilers through Season 3 Episode 7 and equivalent book stuff. But we will not be spoiling future book stuff. If you want that, then stick around until after the outro credits for our White Tower Talk with full series book spoilers.

[00:01:25] And by the way, before we get into this new episode, I just wanted to share a fun theory that's going around Blue Sky and probably elsewhere online about last week's episode. So, have you heard this theory that the hills of Tanchico? So, again, the hills of Tanchico. And, you know, it's obviously it's about ladies' curves where one's not enough and three's too many and two bring a man to his knees.

[00:01:51] People are wondering what if once upon a time the song was originally written about the A-Dum because there's two bracelets to bring a man in the collar to his knees. And then it says, these hills will flatten a whole ship's crew. These hills will make a man out of you. Huh. That's very good. I like that a lot. I wonder if we're going to get some interviews after the season where they're like, yep, that was that.

[00:02:17] Yeah. Or else they'll be like, no, but it is super fun. The theories you guys come up with. Yeah, exactly. It's like, do you guys go outside ever? Yes, with phones. So, maybe I should actually start with my hot take on this episode because I think I liked it a little bit better than you. Sure. I loved all of the mountain scenery and I thought that this was a decent battle episode.

[00:02:43] I was pointing out that I think maybe it's the first actual battle we got. You know, we were supposed to get one in the season one finale. Obviously, that didn't happen with COVID. Mm-hmm. And then, I guess we did have the battle last season, but this one, I don't know, felt more out in the open, I suppose. Yeah, and it felt more hand-to-hand, even though we had some hand-to-hand with the white cloaks last time. It just felt different, which was good.

[00:03:12] Yeah, it felt more battle-y. But I did, for some reason, you know, going in, people said there were two amazing episodes. And for some reason, I was thinking it was going to be like the two, one location episodes. So, four, Rydian. Obviously, that was definitely, you know, the case. And then the, I think, I thought that this was going to be the other episode that the people who had seen them all said was the best. But I think, actually, they were referring to episode six.

[00:03:39] So, I went into this one with too high of expectations. And then I was, I was whelmed plus, you know. I noticed that they had made decisions with the budget for the season. And I think they made the right decisions. But then there were certain things, like, from the books. I was like, oh, is this big thing going to happen? And I'm like, no. I think they've, you know, used their budget elsewhere. We're not going to get, like, a bunch of wolves rushing in or something like that. So, yeah.

[00:04:09] Whelmed plus, we'll go through the details. But what did you think? I think that's a good way to put it is whelmed. I don't think I would put a plus on it. Like, it was fine. And I think what's most disappointing about that for me is that the battle in the two rivers in the books is perhaps one of the coolest battles in the whole series. And I just don't feel like it was earned.

[00:04:37] And the reason for that is that I understand the impulse that people have, showrunners have, to do a bottle episode. I know it's not really like a traditional bottle episode, but like a one location episode. But I feel like that really undermined the development in the two rivers. I know we had two river scenes before this, but we didn't really have training scenes before this. We didn't have, like, the development of, like, hey, they're really good at shooting bows until this episode.

[00:05:05] Like, you can't tell me in one episode they're really good at shooting bows. And then, like, they could defend themselves against Trollocs later in the episode. Well, there were season one references with Rand and stuff. But, yeah, there were other things. I think they could have reminded us of a few things. I also just, like, I don't know. I spent some time thinking about the two rivers plotline this season. Because, for example, I thought that they, going into the season, I expected they would bring the Tuatham back in earlier.

[00:05:33] And then, because that would set up, you know, that whole reaction we got with Bane and Chiad about, like, oh, Aram's cute, but he's a dirty lost one, you know? Yeah. Just that contempt shown there would have been handy to have that interaction before Rand went through the columns in Rodean. But then again, of course, we needed that to happen before the whole thing with Aram and Ela. Yeah. This episode when he defends the baby. Right. So, yeah.

[00:06:04] But I just thought, like, if they brought the Tuatham in earlier, then they would have cut into the whole establishing the stuff with the sisters and the white cloaks and stuff. And it's just, again, like, oh, just wish we had one more episode or two more episodes every season. But that's it. And that was something that I mentioned to you, too, is, like, I don't know if this is a Wheel of Time problem or, like, a TV in 2025 problem where we just can't have 10 episode seasons unless you're on Apple now.

[00:06:32] I don't know what the marriage to eight episodes is and why we're there. But this show clearly needs one or two more episodes per season. Hmm. I am curious. I have a feeling with both of us that we came in with big book expectations. And I knew that it would have to be pared down. But I have a feeling if we weren't book readers, we might not have been bothered by the same thing.

[00:06:59] So I'm very much looking forward to having a conversation with Jean after this episode airs. We're going to put out a special extra episode for the public feed just as a check-in with a non-book reader just to see how he's responding to everything. Because I think this one's definitely going to go down better with non-readers. Yeah, probably. And maybe I'm just a crank. And that's fine. But it was, like, for me, I was like, where are the wolves? Where are the wolves? There's no wolves coming!

[00:07:27] Although there's a reactor who made me feel better about that. Arroyal B is a YouTube reactor. And when she was watching episode 5, she saw the wolves' heads on pikes in the white cloak camp. And she said, oh, so they're not going to be available for Perrin to call on. I'm like, yeah, okay. That's fair. They did warn us. Okay. Am I right? Yeah, I wasn't even that bothered by the lack of wolves. Like, it would have been great to have them. I know. It's my favorite. But that's the kind of thing.

[00:07:57] Well, yeah. And the wolves are important at several points in the books. And I think there are more important scenes for them to be in. Right. Sure. But that actually, I do understand that kind of budget cut. What I don't understand is why squish everything into one episode and not have a season of development. And that's what I think bothers me the most. Because that is not just, that's not having too few episodes. That's not having too little budget.

[00:08:24] That is, I am the showrunner and I made the decision to put everything in this episode. I don't know. Because I was thinking, like, what could they have gotten done away with? I'm like, well, maybe, you know, like the Alana Maxim drama. I actually like the Alana Maxim drama existing. I didn't like the way they did it in episode five with, like, having Maxim running off or something. Like, they could have brought in the two-a-thon and just had the drama more with everyone together. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:54] And I know they had the two-a-thon be, like, the warning that the Trollocs were coming that night. But they could have easily ridden around that, right? Like, they could have easily had, like, somebody scouting and be like, it looks like they're night away. You know? Like, there's no reason that had to be the two-a-thon. Yeah. Maybe they didn't want to pay them for that many episodes. I'm like, why are the two Aiel seem to be the only scouts? Yeah. And Fai'el, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That being said, I want to end on a positive note. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:21] I did really like a lot of the action. I really liked the interaction between Perrin and Dane Bornhold. Mm-hmm. And I really liked the Fai'el and Perrin interactions. I thought those were all really, really good. And I thought that they really did a good job, even perhaps a better job than in the books, of Aram's arc. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because it made me also really excited to see what's next with Aram. Aram is someone that I enjoy from the books more than others, I think.

[00:09:52] And, yeah, they set that up well. And I think also just the way that ties into what we learned in episode four was well done, too. Yeah. There's no baby in the books. So they made him a lot more like... Right. They made his motivations a lot more clear, right? Is this whole, like, I'm not letting anyone else die. Right. And they also, they set it up, you know, Robert Jordan is one who will do sudden twists.

[00:10:17] Whereas here, I could have told you from season one, like, Aram's not 100% in on the way of the leaf. You know, whenever there's a comment to be made, he's like, yeah, this is just, like, the thing my people do. I remember him setting up Aram pretty well, though. He spends, like, half the book being, like, with Aram, like, eyeing Perrin and eyeing the words, right? Like, I don't know if that was an example of a sudden twist. But, yeah, there are sudden twists. True. All right. Well, shall we get into the details of the episode itself?

[00:10:46] Because there are a lot of, like, character moments I really appreciate. Like, even, you know, R.I.P. Days Conger. Don't worry if you are a show only and you don't know who that name is. That's the wisdom who died at the end. She was just basically thrown in there as a nod for book readers. And so they had another channeler. Yeah, that was another throwaway. I was like, mm, fine. Yeah. I don't know. She had her whole little arc. Anyway, okay, we'll talk about it.

[00:11:10] But so we are here to talk about Season 3, Episode 7, Golden Eyes, written by Dave Hill, who's previously best known for working on Game of Thrones Seasons 5 through 8. Oof. I know. I knew you were going to say that. Well, that makes some sense. No, I'm just kidding. Actually, that had some of the best battle work, for sure. Like, that had... Yeah, I'm sure that's why they, yeah. Yeah, Battle of the Bastards is in that. And that's, I think, that's still my top battle on TV ever. Absolutely.

[00:11:39] I completely agree with that. Yeah. Yep. And the director of this episode was Karen Donnelly, who also directed Episodes 1 and 2 and is also directing the finale. And this is the shortest one of the season at 58 minutes. We'll be talking through one story arc at a time, as usual. So that means we'll be discussing scenes out of the order in which they aired. And do you want to set up the first part? Raising the Banner. The entire Two Rivers trains.

[00:12:09] Maxim trains the men with pikes and poles until they demand the long bows they're used to. Alana trains the Cothin Girls and a third powerful channeler she's found in town. Wisdom Days Conger. The rest of the women's circle train themselves. If no one else can be bothered to do it, thank you very much. And Perrin trains two young apprentice blacksmiths. A group of townsfolk unhurl a banner with a wolf on it and begin calling Perrin Lord GoldenEyes.

[00:12:38] Perrin doesn't like it because he's worried he's leading them all to their death. But Tafael tells him that the people need him to embrace his leadership roles. And the banner gives them hope and a reason to fight to survive. Which they'll need because Perrin is certain the big attack is coming that night. So, yeah, I like the whole Trollocs are afraid of wolves. Although it is funny. And I guess this also, this reflects real life.

[00:13:07] You know, that the Trollocs are afraid of wolves. But still, the White Cloaks call wolves dark friends. Yeah, well, yeah. They're not filled with logic, the White Cloaks. No, no. Just like real life. Can I say, too, if the Two Rivers men are trained on longbows, which are for longer distances, why are they so close to the... Yeah. Yeah, that bothered me a lot. I was like, shouldn't you be, like, up on a building? Exactly. Like where Alana was.

[00:13:37] Alana should have been with the archers. Right. I completely did not understand that. Yeah. Alana should have been where they were with the archers. And then they should have had a scout running back and forth to report back to town. Not that all the channelers need to go back to town after they do their one thing. Right. Yeah. There was some awkwardness in the battle setup. And we'll talk about it in this week's...

[00:14:04] This week's lore cast is going to be about Minethrin and the Two Rivers. And they have some differences in, like, the layout versus from the books versus the TV show. Because in the books, like, it's really a field, a plain. And it was, like, where the Minethrin fell is literally Amon's, the king's field. Yeah. Which they call Amon's Field is what it's called in the books. Two Rivers is... They're going to call me Grandelph, aren't they?

[00:14:33] Or Gandalf. Sorry. No, this is much better than that. This is, like, a natural evolution of a name over centuries. Right. This is taking place in Two Rivers is the region. But, yeah, that's what the lore cast is going to be about. We'll talk a little bit more about it here. But one thing I have to say is we'll bring up Tysher Minethrin, which is... And they said it in English, basically. Alana says, the old blood runs deep in these mountains.

[00:15:03] And in the books, someone would say, Tysher Minethrin. Yeah. Len liked to say that a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, so Days Conger brought her up already. She was in the pilot, by the way. She was there on that first battle on Winter Night. And, yeah, she showed up several times this season. But I think a lot of people... I know even book readers didn't recognize she was there.

[00:15:29] And the reason why I've known she was there the whole time is because I study the credits every week because of this podcast. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I think people will recognize her better on rewatches. I think she got some good lines. And she was like, you want me to be part of your child army? Depends if I'll have to stop drinking. Yeah. That was pretty good. A solid comeback. Yeah. Um, she's...

[00:15:54] It's just, like, one of those things, like, her, Sembui, those two kids with Perrin, are they all-seen boys? They... These are all characters who play, you know, moderate minor parts in the books. And so we're getting nods on screen. And so I think... I hope that show-only watchers don't feel overwhelmed trying to remember who they are. Because even, like, book watchers don't even realize that it's those characters. Because it's not important. There's too many people. Yeah. Yeah. But I think... She's gonna die in this episode anyway.

[00:16:24] Who cares? Right. But I think that this is the stuff... Some of the stuff that gives this show such a high re-watchability is when you go back. Like, I know, for instance, Jack Alcine was in previous episodes. And he was not credited in this one. So I'm like, oh, wait. What happened to Jack Alcine then? I have to pay more attention next re-watch. Or the baker boy that Maxim was complaining about his buns before. He was credited in this episode. I'm like, oh, where was he? So I have to pay more attention on my third re-watch to see if I can see the...

[00:16:54] You are truly the champion. I have side characters, Alicia. But that's what I love about this. I mean, I love it about the books. The book has so many endless side characters. And a bunch of them made it into the show. And stuff like that. And also, like, the can you spot the Aeol? Can you spot the Grey Men? It gives... It makes it a lot of fun to re-watch these. That's all I mean to say. No, I hear you. Yeah. That's cool. But yeah, just the difference with Days. She is a character in the book.

[00:17:22] She does become the Wisdom after Nynaeve leaves. She's not a channeler in the books. But, you know, she doesn't die in the books at this point either. But in the books, Varin was there. And there were more girls that Alana recruited. She recruited one of the Cawthon sisters and other girls. But of course, yeah, I think this makes sense as a simplification and a replacement for Varin based on what they have time for. Yeah, I agree. That's totally fine.

[00:17:52] I do wish we had more Varin this season, but... Yeah, yeah. That's mourning that I'll have to do later. Yeah. I think she'll play a larger role in the future. Well, if she makes it through next episode, who knows? Who knows indeed. Who knows if we'll make it through the next episode? Because we might not get a renewal. Oh, no. Stop. I mean the finale for one. Yeah. I liked, though, that the girls, the Cawthon girls, they were realistically teenagers.

[00:18:21] Like, can you throw lightning? The other Aes Sedai did the last time the Trollocs came. Yeah, that was pretty solid. That was pretty solid. I did not buy that they were able to throw a flame all of a sudden and fully burn this guy alive, especially when they just said we can't touch the source. But I'm okay with hand-waving it. Yeah, I am embracing that they must have the fast-learning talent that we talked about in the talents episodes.

[00:18:46] So, fast-learning talent in the books, which is basically at some point they're like, you know, some characters can just see a weave once and learn it and hand-wave, hand-wave, moving on. Yeah, and sorry, everyone, that that was a little bit later in the day. I accidentally scheduled that episode for a week later than it was supposed to come out. So, there are some benefits to screeners and then there are some calendar confusions.

[00:19:11] One exciting thing that was shouted out this episode that people have been waiting to be clarified in the show is Alana says to Days, you can see my weaves, that means you can channel. So, that's a thing in the books where, you know, you can only see the weaves of a channeler if you are also a channeler of the same gender. And in the show, that's been somewhat confusing from a viewer perspective because obviously they want us all to see the weaves.

[00:19:42] So, we weren't sure who could see them. So, that clarifies. Yeah. Yeah, I see. I see what they're doing. And there's this whole thing in the books is they make clear that, like, when two women duel with the power, like, if somebody who couldn't channel was looking at them, it would just look like two people standing still looking at each other. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, in the show, they added these, like, hand motions, but that's okay. Well, the Aes Sedai do hand motions. That's one of the things that defines them as Aes Sedai.

[00:20:11] Yeah, but sometimes it's, like, seen a little bit as a crutch, right? Like, with certain things. After you've done the weaves, like, you're not, like, holding it with your hands, right? Well, but that is the problem with the Aes Sedai versus other channelers, like, say, the wise ones. The Aes Sedai are so dependent on their hand motions because they, that's how they learn them.

[00:20:32] So, if the Aes Sedai lose use of their hands or something, like, for instance, that is why they had Iman Velda cutting off their hands in previous seasons, even though that's an addition from the book. But it's because they can't channel if they can't use their hands because that's how they learn to channel. Okay. Okay. I buy it. But, yeah, I liked, you already mentioned the Two Rivers bows.

[00:21:02] I like that they called that out, although I do not think the bows they showed are nearly long enough. Yeah, but I guess there's, like, how big can they be without people looking very tiny with them? Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, but that is the thing. It's, like, anytime the Two Rivers contingent comes and they bring out their longbows, like, new people are laughing at them. And then once they see them in action, they're like, I'm sorry, I did not realize your game. Yeah, exactly. That's a good way to put it.

[00:21:31] So, Sembui calling Maxima out was, like, very on point. And, yeah, I'm glad that they did that. And, indeed, don't worry if you don't know. Sembui, angry old man who complains a lot. Days post-Naineev wisdom. That's all you need to know about them. Just pointing out, though, for the book readers, no Master Luhan, who is the one who trained Perrin at blacksmithing. But I guess he didn't make the cut. Yeah. Well, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine.

[00:22:01] I think they should have had him in the show and then had Perrin kill him in the first episode instead of his wife. Yeah. I think that would have been way more meaningful for book viewers. And it would avoid problematic tropes. Yeah. Maybe in retrospect, they would have done that now that they've heard so much complaining about it. Yeah. Yeah. So we get Perrin and Fahil. They have their through line in this episode where he's trying to do the over-chivalrous thing, which is straight out of the books.

[00:22:29] And she's like, no, like, I don't know why I'm pulled into the Tavira net. I like you. And guess what? I just like fighting. So let me do it. Yeah. And I love that journey in this episode. I think that's one of the most effective things is Perrin by the end of the episode going, stay behind me. What? You can't keep me? Because you need to get the stragglers. And I was like, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Because that is a thing in the books that lasts so long. And it's so obnoxious is Perrin being like, I can't risk Fahil.

[00:22:59] And it's just, it's, I groan every time I read it. I groan. And so the show is doing better in that sense. I think I'm liking this episode more the more we talk about it. But I think the things that bother me are getting smaller and the things I liked are getting bigger. Yeah. I think it is one of those episodes. And that's why I think like just us being book readers is that's where the first thing is like, oh, yeah, I feel so rushed compared to like in the books that it's not just one battle.

[00:23:27] There's an ultimate battle, but there's like a week of battles going on with all these different things that happened. And of course they can't do that in the show. And so necessarily, however they condense, it's going to feel a little bit like, you know, it takes a beat, takes a beat to think about it more. Yeah. I liked what she, what Fahil said to Perrin, we deserve respect before battle and honor after it. Save your guilt for the enemies that escaped.

[00:23:52] And then that's kind of foreshadowing because Perrin lets them escape is a trade. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about that later. I have thoughts about that. All right. We'll get there. We do get that nice moment where Perrin gives Matt's sisters the sketch of Matt blowing the horn. And there was another nice teenager moment. Like Matt, the bladder blower, Matt, the sheep tutor. What do you think about the girls not being taken to the white tower?

[00:24:23] Um, yeah. So I have something about that in the white tower segment to talk about. I, yeah. Um, I know why from like an story can outside the story construction, why they would be doing that. But I'm wondering what Alana's immediate motivation is going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. All right. We'll save it for the spoilers. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[00:24:51] Do you want to talk about, should we talk about some refugees with familiar faces? I love those. Meanwhile, a caravan of wagons shows up at the gate. It's the Tuathon, uh, leading a crowd of refugees from all over the two rivers, all running from the trollic attacks and hoping to take refuge in the relative safety behind the walls now built around this town.

[00:25:12] In book terms, Egwene's season one flirtation, Aram and his grandmother, Ila, are leading the Tuathon. But Ila's husband, Rain, was killed the night before in a trollic attack. Taryn is glad to see his old friends, nonetheless, and return the aid they gave to him and Egwene in season one. Bane and Shiad, on the other hand, privately make their contempt for the lost ones clear.

[00:25:43] Yeah. So, Ila plays an interesting role in this, like, very judgy. She's already eyeing Perrin's acts with judgment. But then at the end of the episode, she's, like, more proud of him than she is of Aram, which is like, oof. You know, I just, I said to you sometime in the middle of watching this episode, I messaged you and I said something like the way of the leaf can suck it.

[00:26:11] Like, I am just so done with these fucking tinkers and their judgmental stuff. Like, I'm sorry, but if your philosophy wants you to let a baby die, then your philosophy is evil. That's truly my opinion. Especially, it's a trollic. This is a mindless monster at this point. Like, they, they, we don't know the origins of them, but at this point, they are mindless monsters who will do nothing but kill.

[00:26:39] If your philosophy lets you, makes you let that kill a baby, then your philosophy is evil. Hmm. I mean, on the other hand, I do feel for them, like, and the constant people expecting them to be different. Like, the, the moment where Mara Nelfir says, oh, don't worry, we picked out the meat. I had flashbacks to so many times when I've been traveling and people have done that to me.

[00:27:04] And I am, I have been more like Aran where I'm like, okay, thanks. Just so you know, like, vegetarians don't want to eat the meat juice either. Yeah. Look, I've, I've, here's the thing. Like, I've been in that situation too because I used to be a vegetarian. Hmm. But, but also, like, there comes a point in your vegetarian journey where you have to realize that, like, bacon grease is on the griddle if you go out to eat. Somewhere you have, you have touched bacon grease. You are not fully avoiding exposure to it.

[00:27:34] I mean, I know people who have been really extreme in that where they're like, I will not, I will not allow, eat anything that's been cooked in pots that have cooked meat or things like that. And I'm not to that degree, but I can understand the people who are. That's like kosher rules you're going with. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but it basically, it's, it's the same sort of idea. Yeah. Um, but there's always, yeah, you have to find where is your own line?

[00:28:00] Because I also completely understand Aram when he's looking at Hila, when she says we bury our dead and we go on, what else is there? And he's like, I don't know, maybe mourning your fucking husband, my grandfather. Like, I would be angry with Hila too at that moment. It's kind of what we saw, we saw Maxim get angry with Alana for similar reasons this season. Yeah.

[00:28:26] I think, um, any philosophy can be taken to an absurd extreme and to be, and be taken to dogmatic problematic behavior. And Hila is certainly at that extreme with T'Hadlon. But I think it's also in the case of like, we bury our dead and go on. If we look at it the same as Alana, there's a, there's a self-protection in there too. Like, how do we cope with this loss? Well, we just keep going and bury it.

[00:28:54] Like, we don't just bury the dead. We bury our feelings about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I like the way you put that. There's, um, you know, I, I think I mentioned in our severance podcast, somebody wrote in to ask for feminist book recommendations. We had mentioned, you know, some, some passages and, uh, I had recommended a book called patriarchy. Uh, sorry. It's called why does patriarchy persist?

[00:29:17] And the whole thing is about how patriarchy is essentially a set of scripts that people often fall back on when they're feeling pain, when they're feeling grief. And I feel like you could apply that to any dogma and whether you agree with the way of belief or not, it is dogma, right? This is a strict set of rules.

[00:29:37] Uh, and, and people often, and this is why people fall deeper into their religion and particularly into religious extremism is it is easier to have a script and be able to take mindless action than it is to confront your feelings and the moral complexity around what occurred. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. And so that's what you have here.

[00:30:02] And, and like, that's why I say like any belief system can be taken to an absurd extreme religious or not. Mm-hmm. Do you think that this is why Perrin, we see him struggling with, you know, we see him kill a lot of people this episode, but we also see him saying a lot of the most profound way of the leaf type things. Like at this point, he says, it may be the season of falling leaves, but when people see how bare the trees are, they will long for spring and your wagons will fill again.

[00:30:31] And he's saying lots of stuff like this. Um, just really speaking to Illa's heart this episode and then going and killing a bunch of people. Do you think, why do you think, I mean, how would you describe the inner turmoil going on in Perrin? Um, part of it I don't think makes sense. Like, I, I understand he, he is like, I don't want to hurt people. Mm-hmm. And yet my circumstances keep forcing me into situations where I have to hurt people. Yeah.

[00:30:59] And that's, um, I, I'm, I'm reading the Stormlight Archive right now, as I've talked about on another broadcast. I'm like, there's other characters that deal with like similar things of like, should I go into a healing role or should I be a soldier against what I think is bad things? Mm-hmm.

[00:31:14] Um, and, and I just, I don't really buy what he does at the end because I, I do think that if he had killed Patton Fane, the Trollocs would have lost any sense of like order and probably the, uh, the two rivers would have been successful. At the same time, there's an argument to me made that like Perrin doesn't know that for sure. Mm-hmm. And maybe his best chance is to let Patton Fane run away.

[00:31:40] But now let me argue against myself again, is that what's to stop Patton Fane from getting out from under the axe and being like, just kidding. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not like he was like, I'm going to follow you with this axe out of town. He just let him get up and go away. Yeah. Uh, but also I think he, he did put an extra fear in Patton Fane when he told Patton Fane he could smell his fear. And he's like, you can do what? So. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:08] I think he did make Patton, give Patton Fane the fear of like, I will find you. Uh, well, especially if you're hanging around with the hundreds of Trollocs. So, um, yeah. A random question. Okay. So we'll, we'll get to this talk back when we get to the battle, but random question about this opening part. Do you think Loyal understands Maiden Hand talk now? Because he seemed to understand the gestures that the women were making about Aram. I wouldn't be shocked.

[00:32:37] Like he's been spending a lot of time with them and he's clearly a very smart creature. Um, but yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, well, I guess we'll get to their scene in a bit, but it's, uh, I, I, I agree with you. I think he understands it at least a little bit. Yeah. I feel like he's this. So show only people have heard us refer a few times to a character named Gall, who is not, who's from the books, didn't make it into the show. And we saw part of his part go to like Avienda, for example. But I think Loyal is definitely playing part of his role too.

[00:33:07] Hmm. Yeah. Although, yeah, it was Gall was here with them and he and Loyal went to the gate together and blah, blah, blah. Anyway. Um, yes, just to point out. So they talk about all around the two rivers because again, the two rivers is a region, not, it's actually four different towns. We'll talk about that more in this week's lore cast. And, uh, turnips is what the Tuathaan eats.

[00:33:31] So I guess when Maxim did the whole turnips and figs flirtation, I guess that was, uh, the Tuathaan finally got to make their own food without meat in it. Yeah, probably. Uh, the, the fig scene was pretty funny. I was like, oh boy, this is, oh, we're getting it on. But see the, like that was as much intimacy as I needed to see. You know what I mean? Yeah. We did it. And then they faded to black. Yeah. Yeah. We did it. And we got the whole message there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. And I think that that's what they've done throughout. That's my thing.

[00:34:01] All right. We're not doing this again today. We're not doing this. All right. Let's take a quick break here. And when we get back, let's talk about an unlikely alliance. We're back.

[00:34:29] For an unlikely alliance, Perrin sent Lord Luke to invite White Cloak Commander and man on an anti-Perrin mission, Dane Bornhold, to parlay. Perrin argues that they should team up against the Trollocs, but Dane said he just can't trust the guy who killed his father. Perrin reminds him that he just had Natty killed and asks where this revenge spiral will end, if not here. Perrin questions what Dane really stands for. If he doesn't help them fight the Shadowspawn now.

[00:35:00] Perrin tells him that if the White Cloaks help them in battle, then Perrin will turn himself in afterward to face whatever the White Cloaks deem justice. So, yeah, we got just a cursory Lord Luke mention again. Again, it's a book character. And we're wondering, I mean, we'll save this, I guess, mostly for White Tower talk. But I'm wondering if this is just one of those things where it's like, look, it's Daze Konger. Okay, bye.

[00:35:26] Or for actually, you know, or like Jai Chim Chin, who plays a much bigger, more complex role. And then in the show, it was just kind of like a nod. I don't know. What do you think? Lord Luke? I want my Lord Luke. I want him. I do. I do, too. I do, too. I think he plays an important role in Perrin's story, especially. And it's not just like, can we have the side character? It's like, this is a major character.

[00:35:53] And to change this, I think, would be, I think you'd have to make too many other character changes to make the arc work. Like, it would just feel very shoehorned to leave him out. Especially because you already introduced him, right? Like, why not just leave him out altogether then? Yeah. But then I am wondering, like, for instance, we also got Child Byer introduced in episode five, which is like, oh, hi, Child Byer. And then, you know, it's only book readers. They're like, oh, hey, I know that name.

[00:36:20] But then we haven't even gotten, even in this episode, I don't think we saw him at all. So was that just like an Easter egg for book readers? Or is that actually going to be a thing? I don't know. I just can't speculate at this point. Who's to say? Yeah. Okay. Anyway. I feel like I have to download a River Song spoilers sound. Yeah. If we're going to go forward with this conversation. Fair enough. Fair enough. Moving on to Loyal and the Maidens.

[00:36:48] So first, Bane and Chiad question Loyal about the book he's writing when they notice a name of a Minethirin king, a king of Minethirin, whose name looks just like Ran's last name. And so again, yeah, the lore cast is going to be about the history of Minethirin, but it's the ancient kingdom that fell to the Trollocs on this very spot where they are battling now.

[00:37:14] And that was 2,000 years before current events, at least more than 2,000 years before current events. Althorin was the last king there. So I'm wondering, did an Althorin survive? And eventually that name morphed to Althor. I think it's very possible. I was thinking when I was watching this, I was like, did they add that for the show? Because that might be a little cute. And like, no, it's definitely in the books. I just never even clocked it before.

[00:37:45] Yeah. I don't think I really clocked it before either. So, yeah, that is interesting. Thank you to Chiad for pointing that out to us all. And she like looks right at the camera, like Althor. Althor. Like Althor. Did you get it? Did you get it? Like, well, honestly, I did not. So thank you. I have to say, Loyal was looking rough this episode. Like the way they did his makeup. He had the bags under his eyes. His ears were drooping.

[00:38:12] Like I know it's from he said that he had the longing, which again is what happens when Ogier are away from the setting for too long. So they certainly made him look like he had the longing. Yeah, for sure. Do you want to set up the Maiden's Kiss game? I would love to. Loyal tells the two that he's finally ready to play Maiden's Kiss, but he refuses both of their kisses when the game begins. By the rules of the game, they should spear him for not giving them a good kiss, but they don't want to harm Loyal.

[00:38:41] So they make an excuse to end the game. He believes this counts as sparing his life and thus the toe she had had towards him for saving her life is paid. But Bane argues that now she has toe because Loyal risks his own life by playing the game with the intention of saving their lives by sending them away from the battle. So that cancels out. She adds toe towards him, but now Bane has toe. So she must stay and fight with Loyal. And she had, of course, goes wherever her first sister goes. Yeah.

[00:39:10] So I felt like that needed to be explained, but this is, I think it's just a, it's a silly aside. And again, another one of the things that's really prevalent in the books and I find mildly annoying where all the male characters are like, oh, but the women must be saved. But it is true. It's straight from the books, but I thought it was just a nice little aside that shows, just the complications of the IEL toe system and Loyal trying to figure them out. Yeah.

[00:39:36] And I feel like it was like, there definitely was part of that, like sexist, you know, the women have to leave. But I think it was also partly like you, you two are my friends and this is not your fight, right? Like this is not your town. You could escape and go back to your people. And he was doing his best with that too. Yeah. Yeah. But as they say, it is dishonorable to cheat an IEL of her toe. Yeah. I like the way they put that. Like you, you kind of skipped over that in the recap because it probably would have made

[00:40:06] it like three more lines, but yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. And then they like logic around it. They were like, oh, but he was being noble because he was trying to bend the rules to save your life. It's a lot of wiggle room in tow based on personal interpretation. Yeah. It's like, like many systems you can interpret it to fit your belief system. Yeah. All right. Shall we take turns with this next section? Yes. Sure. You want to start?

[00:40:36] Okay. While the town braces for battle, Loyal and the maidens head out on their own mission to permanently close the two rivers way gate so that more trollic reinforcements can't come through. Loyal says his goodbyes to Perrin, promising that the story of Perrin and the two rivers will live on through his writing, whatever happens here, so that others may learn from these events in their own fights against the shadow. Perrin thinks that Loyal has taken his book with him to return to his steading to recover from the longing.

[00:41:04] But Perrin later finds that he's left his book behind. At the way gate, Loyal, Bane, and Chiad fight off the guards and others who discover them, allowing Loyal to slip inside. Using the trefoil leaf stone, he closes the gate with him on the inside. An army of trollics storms through the ways intent on using the gate. He's just closed to join the battle. So Loyal uses his hammer to smash through the path beneath his feet.

[00:41:31] Loyal falls with the way gate and the island it was standing on into the nothingness below, but there is no longer a way for the trollic reinforcements to join the attack on the two rivers. As Bane and Chiad fight to protect the way gate from the other side, it explodes in a burst of light, visible even in the town. So what do you think about this? This is not a thing that happens in the books. Loyal taking himself out with a way gate. Boo.

[00:42:01] He does close the way gate. He and Gaal close the way gate. But this is a... Do you think, though, like... It was just giving me Gandalf vibes, you know, when he faces the Balrog and then falls and then he comes back later. Do you think we're going to get that? It's... I don't think we're going to get, like, Divine Intervention Gandalf. No. Where Gandalf is purposefully sent back by the Valar. But, um... I do think he'll come back. I mean, I don't know for sure.

[00:42:31] This could be... No. Anything could happen, but I think he'll come back for reasons later. I mean, nobody knows the ways as well as an Ogear. Yeah. And, like, we don't know if there was something else underneath it, maybe. Like, there was... We don't fall just into nothing, but we don't even, like... We don't even really know what's down there in the book terms. No, we don't. And maybe they'll address that. But I mean, like, is there another platform underneath it? Maybe. Who knows? But, like, way down.

[00:43:01] Maybe it'll fall on it. Take to the place where people go skimming or something. We'll see. I do have a gripe with the fact that he just left his book behind because, like, the last time the Trollocs attacked the two rivers, the Wine Spring Inn was burned down. So, he's like, oh, people will hear your story, but I'm going to leave the book in the place that has a 50-50 shot of getting burned down. Well, I think in his head, he's like, well, better than where I'm definitely going to die.

[00:43:31] Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, I guess there was no way... If he had to lock it from the inside and the Trollocs were coming, even if he were able to destroy the gate another way, it's not like... Yeah, he's going to be stuck in there with the Trollocs. Not to mention about Shin Shin. Yeah, and in the books, like, the whole thing is, like, even if you take out the leaf from the outside, nobody will be able to go through it. So, he didn't really need to. Or actually, I think he had to go in, get the leaf from the inside, and then take it out on the outside.

[00:44:01] Right, and then take it out. But the point is, once you take away the leaves, you're fine. Yeah, but they did destroy it just so that it couldn't be reopened anymore. Yeah. Yeah, they took the leaves with them, and that way nobody could open it. Yeah, so, I don't know. I don't know how... This is the biggest part of the episode where I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that. I understand.

[00:44:25] Well, for instance, like, I was a defender of the fact Uno's death in Season 2 was a big surprise. Uno's still around in the books. But I thought that that was actually... Was a smart decision to make because I think... It was a cool Uno way to go out. But they made him tied to a Hero of the Horn, and I could see them doing certain things with that story in the future, too. Like, could he be a specific Hero of the Horn that we know the name of as book readers? Yeah.

[00:44:56] But, you know, so I think that was a good way to handle it. Also because Uno, he is a character people love because of his personality, not because he's necessarily so central to the plot, to particular plot turns. But I don't... I don't know. This one, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it. I guess I have to wait and see the repercussions of this. Yeah. It did feel like an unnecessary change to me. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:23] Like, either he's going to stay dead, and then book readers are going to be mad. Or he's going to be alive, and it'll feel kind of silly for him to have, like, fake died. Yeah. Because then if he's going to stay dead, does that mean, you know, he... I think it's safe to say that, you know, he opens up Ogier elements of the story because he's in... Yeah. Oh, there you go. He's in the Ogier land. So does that mean they cut out the Ogier stuff? I guess it depends how many seasons they get. Yeah.

[00:45:54] I don't know. I just feel like they put themselves in a lose-lose with this, and it was completely unnecessary. They did not have to do this. They wanted a big stage. This is what I mean by, like, you are creating moments for TV and not telling the story. Hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. I guess it depends. I'm waiting because I had a thought that I'm going to bring up in the White Tower segment about the Fai'o backstory change. So, you know, maybe...

[00:46:20] I have to assume until shown otherwise that there's a reason why things are done except for the season one finale, but we've already hashed that out enough. Right. Yeah. I just... Look, there are, like, character moments that have changed that I think have been better done. Like, I talked about the Irem thing. I think in general... Sure, everything with Leandrin, yeah. Yeah. I think in general, when you're adapting a work like this that's so beloved, you have to be like, okay, why is this beloved? Mm-hmm. And should... Do I really know better than the author? Yeah.

[00:46:50] I mean, I think that they really took the time to do that and, like, went around interviewing a bunch of people. Like, what are... Why is it beloved to you? What are your favorite moments? And things like that as they're deciding, like, what's essential to keep and how do we connect it all together? So, that's why I think... Yeah. Anyway. I just want to say, like, I think one of the original sins of this series that we're... We've mostly moved past, but I think this was one of the things that, like, may have been a straggler from that is...

[00:47:20] Supposedly, when they started the series, they sent out surveys to big fans of Wheel of Time and they said, What things would you change from the books? And I just think that is the wrong philosophy to have. It should be, what do you love from the books? Well, that is what they did. They... I mean, they asked all of the things. So, I think that we shouldn't put an unnecessary... Because it was mostly, what do you love? What are the most memorable moments? And things like that. And that's why we got, you know, the stick fight. Even though that's not necessary.

[00:47:49] Is it the most important plot-wise? I don't know. Maybe not. But it feels important. I think it's important character-wise, right? Like, it's important for the two princes to be struck down a peg, which I think was on their mind a little bit by not having in public. But still happened. Again, I didn't complain a lot about that. I thought it was mostly good. And then you have Matt being like, I have skills for reasons. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's an important character moment for him to, like, get a little bit of confidence, I think.

[00:48:20] Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Right. Should we get into the battle? Yes. Though Loyal and the Maidens manage to prevent the reinforcements from joining, the hundreds of Trollocs and Dark Friends who have already passed through the way gate descend on the town. Luckily, since Trollocs can't swim and Alana's burned all the bridges, there's only one way into town, via the mountain pass.

[00:48:45] Perrin has set up stages to fall back when they must, the mountain pass, then the gate, then the square, and finally the wine spring in. So, yeah, we talked about that it is a series of battles over a week or so in the books, ending with the Battle of Edmunds Field. That makes sense. But I just wanted to shout out, I liked how they used, both times they used a reprise of Sing for Minethrin before the battle, and then Loyal sings it to himself after that before.

[00:49:11] Which, okay, Loyal's not from there, but I guess he feels a kinship and he's thinking of, like, I'm doing this for Taisha Minethrin. But, yeah, for me, I found both. I really like that song, and I found both of those instances moving. Okay, yeah. Look, I mostly liked a lot of the character moments in this. I think this is where I might begin to be at more critical.

[00:49:38] I know I just was more critical a minute ago, but I think the battle in general was where I started to go, hmm, not my favorite episode. Again, like, I think I said this to you, like, I did not like this episode. It's my least favorite episode of the season, of a great season. And so, like, something's got to be the worst episode in the season, right? Like, not all of them are going to be 10 out of 10. And I would put this one at, like, a 7 out of 10. Okay. Okay, that's fair.

[00:50:06] Okay, well, while Perrin and Maxim take most of the locals to hold the pass for as long as possible, Alana takes the channelers to a higher vantage point where she can link with Days and the Cawthon Sisters to create a rain of large ice shards that takes out a big chunk of the shadow spawn, impressing the girls. Their attack, chasing away the contingent at the pass. But when they return to town, the Trollocs sneak up on them there, and they spear Alana through the torso

[00:50:35] while Days puts up a final fight. The Trollocs break through her unpracticed shield quickly, killing her. Yeah. So one character beat I could have done without is Days throwing away her flask. I'm like, let the lady have one last drink before she goes. Well, the character beat I could have gone without with her was suddenly being able to do a shield when they discovered that day that she can channel. They're all fast learners. Ty-sheer-manetherin. No.

[00:51:04] They're all fast learners. He can't keep getting away with this. I'm like, am I Todd Howard stage here? I do. I think one thing that's interesting from, you know, people who have read the books is that Perrin says at one point, the armor, the discipline, this isn't how Trollocs fight. It's like someone is controlling them. And it's like, in the books, yes, always. Like, Trollocs on their own, they'll do raids and things like that.

[00:51:31] But they are not an organized, motivated group. Yeah, they're like animalistic because they're part animal. Right. So they, if they're being driven into battle by this, they are always being driven by someone. Usually, Myrdraal. We got no Myrdraal this season. I guess you know they did enough? We get the point? Also, I'm sure that's a budget point. Yeah. Well, yeah, because there's also, there's other shadow spawn that we, people are like, where are the drag cars? Yeah.

[00:52:02] Honestly, I feel like that might be a hard one to explain. Like, this is what I'm saying. Like, there are things I will excuse for being TV. Like, there are things that, like, make sense. Like, all right, we're not going to have, like, the super complicated creatures, right? Right. For both budget and time for explanation. I think, I'm looking for, are you doing the most with what you have? Right. Right. And that's also why, like, there were people who were genuinely like, I thought that there would be a green man at the Eye of the World. I'm like, I never thought that they were going to do that.

[00:52:32] And I don't blame them for just being like, nah, just let's simplify that. I mean, I could have seen Robert Jordan rewriting that ending, right? Like, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. The ending of the Eye of the World doesn't make sense. I love the book. It hooked me on the wheel of time right away. The ending makes zero sense compared to the rest of the series.

[00:52:54] I mean, the book overall, a lot of the magic things that happened in it in particular is the most out of line with the rest of the series because he was sort of just working things out. Right. So some elements, yeah. So some elements he was like, oh, yes, this is a through line through the rest of the books. And then other things just happened. And then, like, we don't talk about it anymore. Like the one Trolloc Narg who speaks. Narg smart. Yeah. And, like, look, there's different styles of writing.

[00:53:24] And, like, there's the gardeners like Jordan and Martin and Tolkien. And then there's the outliers like more of a Sanderson kind of thing. I think they each have pros and cons. Mm-hmm. One of the cons in gardening is you will often find a cool thing to do and be like, and later be like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Yeah. Maybe I should have pruned that branch. Yeah. Like, I think George R. R. Martin said, like, oh, I accidentally killed a character in the last book. Oh, right. And he had to go back and rewrite part of it.

[00:53:54] Yeah. I have theories about that. But, yeah. Okay. One other complaint that I have. My biggest complaint about the show in general is they do the fake out death or near death too much. And right now, Alana is just becoming a regular old pin cushion. Yeah. She's either, like, completely healthy or on her deathbed. There is no in- And always, like, filled with arrows. You could use her as, like, a clothes hanger.

[00:54:21] Like, you could just always, she's always got poles sticking out of her. Yeah. So, I mean, I could do with less of that. Because then it makes, I want, when the deaths happen, I want them to hit harder. Yeah, I think it cheapens it. And, like, that makes it so that even though we're not sure if Loyal will come back, like, we're like, I don't even care at this point. Like, it did not, that did not feel like a gut punch to me. I was just like, okay. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:54:50] I mean, because, yeah, I don't know whether or not to trust it. Because they've trained me not to trust deaths in this show. Because also, Loyal got stabbed and it looks like he was dead at the end of the first season. So, I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Do you want to set up with, uh, with Days Dead? With Days Dead, Alana unable to channel. And the other two girls too tired to muster more weaves to heal Alana. The army of farmers is on his own. And they quickly lose ground.

[00:55:20] Falling back to the wall. But the Trollocs have strangely fallen away again. Then the White Cloaks arrive, led by Dane. Perrin throws open the gate for them, not knowing that Padden Fane and a group of dark friends has infiltrated their number. Uh, and now the town. Perrin outs Fane as a dark friend and his troops begin turning on the rest of the White Cloaks and the townspeople, killing them. The Trollocs overwhelm the soldiers, trying to close the gate again. And the battle has now reached the center of town.

[00:55:51] So we got this whole talk from Maxim. Soldiers don't win battles. What wins battles is being too dumb to know when you're beat. Too stubborn to fall down and die. And, um, it works so-so for me as a motivating speech. But I do have to say Maxim knows his audience because, uh, people call the Two Rivers people woolheaded because they're sheep farmers. Um, and they are stubborn. They are known to be the stubbornest people. Yeah, for sure.

[00:56:20] Do you, did you think that they were gonna do the whole dark friend thing as, like, a way to get Perrin out of his oath? Because I did. How so? I thought they were gonna have, because in the books and now we can say this. Oh, oh, saying you were with the, uh, dark friend so I don't have to go with you. Yeah, you didn't help, you hurt us. Yeah. He says, I didn't know about Fane. You should have. Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you not do background checks here?

[00:56:51] Um, no, because in the books they have this whole thing where, like, he makes the same deal of, like, you help us, we'll, I'll go with you. And then he does, they just don't show up, right? They just sit out the battle and the two rivers arrives anyway and he's like, well, you gotta come with us now. He's like, you didn't come. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and so obviously I'm not gonna go with you, you fucking morons. Yeah.

[00:57:17] Uh, and, and I thought here it was gonna be the same thing of, like, and I thought they were gonna complicate it with that, which, which I, I could see doing, right? Like, I could see it being a little bit more morally grave for Perrin to be like, hey, you brought enemies here. Like, you didn't help. I'm not going with you now. I don't know which ones of you are dark friends. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems like he could have gotten out of it. Um, and I don't know.

[00:57:43] That's definitely another topic for the white tower is what we think is gonna happen next since he did go with them. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I, I, I, that would have been a way to get out of it, but I guess they wanted to amp up the tension and escalate the situation. And, and probably because it's driving future plot points faster, I suppose. Yeah. Because maybe what's gonna happen while Perrin's away? Yeah. I don't know.

[00:58:13] I don't know. Or maybe Perrin's gonna die. Who knows? It's, anybody dies now. They just kill off Perrin. No. Oh, man. You know, what's funny is Brandon Sanderson's favorite character to write when he finished the books was Perrin. And I was always like, Perrin is like one of my least favorite characters to read. So I'm like.

[00:58:30] Well, this is a part in Perrin's story where he starts to become interesting to me when he starts to just embrace the different aspects of, you know, being Lord Golden Eyes, of being with Fahil, of being a wolf brother, you know. I would take almost any other character above mid-season Perrin. Mid, mid, sorry, mid-books Perrin. Okay.

[00:58:53] Because, I mean, but is that about him as a character or is that about some, some interminable drama that's probably gonna be covered in two episodes in the show? Yeah, well, that, but also like just so much side questing, you know, like so much. And that's Jordan's problem. It's not Perrin's problem. No, yeah. No, I think, because I think like there are, I think that Perrin has some interesting plot points.

[00:59:21] The problem is they drag on too long and that's definitely obviously not going to be a problem with the show. Right. Yeah. Um, so just to shout out for book readers would got excited when Perrin picked up both a hammer and an axe, but they haven't really talked about hammers and axes connected to Perrin. So just to point out, book readers are gonna yell whenever Perrin picks up a hammer or an axe. Yeah, that's true. It's, it's the Leo pointing at the screen meme. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:51] There's a, there's actually a thing, I guess I can say, because Verrin, actually, she told Perrin this prophet, there's a prophecy, uh, tied to the wolf king and the hammer and the axe. Um, and she was in the two rivers and told Perrin this, but she's not there and nobody told Perrin this. So I will hold back saying it too. Yep. Um, so, okay. White cloak inquisitor Eamon Valda discovers where the Cawthon girls are hiding with the arrow pierced Alana.

[01:00:17] And Valda recognizes all three as those known to him as witches, realizing now he burned the mother for the sin of her daughters. But the exhausted girls muster up enough energy to channel a blast of fire at him, which John loved, burning Valda to a crisp, just as he'd done their mother and countless Aes Sedai before them. So, yeah, I said the fast learning talent thing. It is true that healing waves are more complex than fire blasts. So that would have been an easier one for them to do.

[01:00:47] But I know you don't like how quickly they did it, but it's, it's poetic justice at least, right? Yeah. That he got burned. I'm, I'm okay with him dying here. He's kind of an exhausting character. Mm-hmm. And like, he just feels, here's the thing about the White Cooks is like, they often feel like really small potatoes when you have like the fate of the world at stake. Right. Yeah. They're like, yeah, petty middle management. Yeah.

[01:01:12] But then you're also like, that's kind of realistic is like, we have a real problem to solve and you guys are just annoying. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Although I do have to say it was a bit dark of the girls in Alana because I realized he'd recognized them and he was like looking at them nastily because that's what he does. But he had not attacked them when the girls attacked him. And then Alana laughs. She's like, oh, I'm dying. But it's so nice to see you die faster. I mean, they knew that he burned her mom. Yeah.

[01:01:41] And they also, they also knew he would do that to them. Like, there was no question of that. He burned a lot of Alana's sisters. Yeah. He tortured Egwene and Perrin. You know, he's not, he's not a good dude and nobody's sad to see him go, but. I will not begrudge Alana her laugh. I'll just say it. Okay. Should we take one more quick break and then talk about the messy retreat and the consequences? Sounds good.

[01:02:28] We're back. A messy retreat. Knowing they would, of course, never fight, Perrin asks Illa if she and the Tuathon will take the children out a secret tunnel and run if the battle looks lost. So when the lions fall back to the town square, that's what they do. But they don't get far before they are discovered and begin to be slaughtered by the Trollocs. Aram falls while running with a crying baby strapped to his chest.

[01:02:52] He notices a Trollocs dagger has fallen within Aram's reach and he picks it up, plunging into the side of the Trolloc attacking him and the baby. He saves himself and the baby, but looks up to see Illa watching. The same look in her eyes, Ran's ancestors saw in his mother's eyes when he broke the way of the leaf in Ran's visions in Rodeon. Aram is no longer Tuathon. So, yeah, lots of hate for the way of the leaf going around.

[01:03:21] I have a bit more sympathy, but I understand. I mean, I just, I'm glad we got the setup so that we have this better understanding of why Aram is now shrunned by his people. Yeah. Back in town, Perrin finds and pins down Patton Fane. He says he will spare Fane's life if he calls off the attack and never returns. Once they see the light of the exploding way gate, Fane knows reinforcements are no longer coming.

[01:03:48] So he accepts Perrin's offer and scampers off with the remaining Trollocs. The people of the two rivers celebrate. So we get his motivation speech. Hates you? I don't care about you. I don't care about this place. The great Lord wants to wipe the two rivers off the map. I don't know why I'm doing this accent. To make a point to the dragon reborn? Great. So, um, they, it's not clear in the, in the show. And I don't think it really matters whether he's actually from the two rivers in the books.

[01:04:18] He's from another place, a city called Lugard, which may or may not even be a thing in the show. Um, but he was a face that they looked forward to. He wasn't from there, but it was like, so that would mean he would have less attachment to it. But it would, to them, he was like their main peddler guy, you know, they would look forward to him coming and bringing the news and the goods and all that stuff. Yeah. He was just their little guy.

[01:04:44] And, uh, yeah, I, I think that's an accurate portrayal of how he was in the books too. His attitude toward the true rivers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I brought up earlier about like, so Fane tries to bluff and Perrin says, then why do you smell so afraid?

[01:05:04] And that's another, you know, book pointing meme reader thing because Perrin and his smell, that's a wolf brother thing they haven't explored yet, but he can smell emotions. Right. Right. He can smell crime. That was Huron. I know, I know. But Perrin can like kind of do it in a, in a roundabout way. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:26] And then, and that's exactly why they made the very sensible decision to not have Huron in the show and just form, fold him into Elias because yeah. Sort of redundant powers. Fine by me. Yeah. Makes sense. Although I did love Huron. Yeah. I mean, that's another one like Uno where like people like Huron because of his personality more than he's super important to the plot per se. Huron is also like one of the most famous, um, Tolkien characters. So maybe they figured it might confuse the Tolkien people. Hmm.

[01:05:56] Good point. Good point. Um, okay. But my big question here is would the Dark One or the Forsaken or whoever gave Fane this order, or sorry, gave Fane this order, would they let him retreat? I mean, I guess he'll be punished. Oh, he's done for. He's donezo. Like that's, yeah, that's not gonna fly. No. I think that's fine. And we will probably see like his, his moment or, or maybe he just won't go back to them. Right.

[01:06:26] He'll try to hide. So he was more afraid of losing his life on the spot versus the maybe certainty of getting really bad punishment from the shadow. Well, there's something that they haven't really made clear in the show, but in the books it's very clear that like the Dark One has full power over the dead. Uh-huh. And so maybe he's like, well, the quickest way for me to go suffer is to die and go right to the Dark One. So maybe I could like squeak out a few more years here running around. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

[01:06:55] Yeah. And it totally makes sense that as soon as he's not pressing them, as soon as there's like, normally he would have Myrdral as the, you know, lieutenants and stuff. But as soon as they're not pressing the Trollocs, they scatter. They are not like, let's go to battle beings. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. All right. So that leads to the final consequences. The next day, Alana is healed. The girls presumably having recovered enough to help her, which she does say they saved her life twice.

[01:07:25] Their story this season likely coming to an end, Alana and Maxim have gotten through their morning rut, finding new ways to work together as a duo, both in and out of bed. The Cawthon sisters ask if Alana will take them to the White Tower to train, but she says the pattern has bigger plans for them. Ooh. So, yeah. I mean, do we have to save it for the White Tower? Do you have any thoughts on- Spoilers. Oh. Yeah. I don't know where, yeah, where is she taking them?

[01:07:54] To Aramhold? I genuinely don't know. Yeah. No, I genuinely don't know where she would be taking them, even as a book reader. Yeah. We're not being cute about it. No. Mm-mm. So that'll be interesting. Uh, Egwene's mother, Maran Alphir, finds Aram sitting forlornly in the square, and she points out that the town needs a new blacksmith, and he might have some related experience mending pots and pans with a tuathon, whom the Two Rivers folk call the Tinkers.

[01:08:22] And Perrin finds Loyal's book, realizing his friend knew it was a suicide mission. Yeah, I feel like this is all setting up Two Rivers stuff for season four. Um, do you think we'll get any check-ins in the season finale? Because they still have to cover the other three locations. Do you think that they're new his aftermath of the getting arrested? Perrin's aftermath? I don't know.

[01:08:48] I don't know if, like, this is- if they'll check in on that at all, or- because do they have time next week? I don't know. I- I think, honestly, maybe- No, they don't. They don't. I'm changing my mind. Unless it's like a- do you know the length of the finale? Because I didn't even look. Um, I think it was, like, an hour and seven minutes, so- Okay, they don't have time. They don't have time. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, it's not extra long or anything.

[01:09:15] And they have- they have, like, three big setups we'll talk about in a minute, but, yeah. Um, I do want to point out that- because I pointed out last time the A.L. said, Life is a dream from which we all must wake. Now we hear the second part of that, before we can dream again, so that's the whole tying into the reincarnation thing. Right. Yeah. Do you want to set up the final beats? The White Cloaks return to town, led by Dane, to collect on Perrin's promise.

[01:09:43] Perrin honors the deal he made. He lets- he tells the town folk, his fiery girlfriend, to stand down. And he allows himself to be handcuffed and taken away, to face whatever the White Cloaks deem justice. The people scream the name of Lord Perrin GoldenEyes of the Two Rivers as the White Cloaks lead him out of town. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:05] I liked- because this is definitely something Perrin struggles with in the books, like, where the way of the- well, okay, I'll say the way of the leaf or not. There's another- I was going to say something else, but maybe I already said earlier, maybe that's too spoiling to talk about his weapons situation. But, you know, he's struggling with his- what he feels is a need for violence and just not particularly enjoying committing violence.

[01:10:30] And so he says to Fahil, just like it was your choice to fight, it is my choice to stop fighting. Can you respect that? Do you think Fahil's going to respect that? No, not even for a minute. No. Come on. And then you see Illa beaming as in, like, why can't Aram be more like Perrin? Like, dude, Aram killed one Trolloc. Perrin killed how many people? You know, Dark Friends still, but yeah.

[01:11:02] I just don't- I just don't agree with anything Illa does. She gave a great speech to Perrin last season, and apparently he's still hung up on it. Yeah. Who among us hasn't heard a good podcast? She would be a good podcaster. Would you listen to The Way of the Leaf podcast? No. No, I might, and I'd give it a one-star review. Just kidding, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. That's podcaster to podcaster courtesy.

[01:11:32] What podcast in this universe would you listen to? That's a good question. I think it would be interesting to hear Tom talk about all the different myths. Oh, yeah. That would be so good. Oh, please give Tom a podcast. I was going to say, like, White Tower Dispatches, but they would be really empty of actual messages, but I would be dissecting them to find deeper meaning.

[01:12:02] Oh, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, any final thoughts on, I don't know, this might be the end of the Two Rivers story for this season? It was fine. It was fine. I think of the arcs, it's been the weakest arc this season, but it was not bad, for sure. It was good, not great. Mm-hmm.

[01:12:31] And I'm just hoping that they really nail the finale so that I forget about all of this. Like, I will eat my words if next week is amazing. What do you hope for in the finale? I need to call River Song again. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right, we will talk about that. Wrap up Tangico and the Waste really satisfactorily. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, there's a bunch of threads that are still dangling out there from prior seasons.

[01:13:00] Like, I would love to see Loghain in the finale. He should be locked up at the White Tower now. So, we're going to check in at the White Tower. We know that from the episode description. Tell me what Loghain's up to. Like, stuff like that. What's, you know, we haven't really addressed much the fallout of the Shan Chan. I would like that to be checked in on. And, Tenchiko is the perfect place to do it because it's also on the coast near Foam, where the last finale was.

[01:13:30] So, I don't know how they can possibly do it all, but I hope that they tie more things together. I think they're going to push a lot of loose threads the next season, but I think they could do a really good job if they just focus intensely on Tangico and the Isle Waste. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:51] Yeah, and I'm looking forward to that extra conversation I'm going to have with Jean to check in on his non-book reader reactions and expectations for the finale. Because he's going to be able, obviously, to talk much more freely. Right. He's going to go off on the Way of the Leaf, I feel like. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. He's not a fan of the Way of the Leaf, either. No. No. And the Aes Sedai are going to get it, too. Yeah. And deservedly so. Yes.

[01:14:20] But for subscribers, for Supercast and Patreon subscribers, this week's lore cast is Manetherin and the Two Rivers. So talking about what was and what is now. And also do check out last week's extra lore cast, which was breaking down the new songs from episode six of this season, including lore about the Horn of Valir and also the Wheel of Time civilization mod that never was.

[01:14:51] And check out also last week's Mailbag in the Public episode, also with Mark from Nevermind Music. Lots of Wheel of Time content coming out. And I'm sorry. I know I said we'd slow down, but not for the Wheel of Time. No, I gave up on that. That initiative is gone. Well, I mean, yeah. Hopefully. It's my fault, too. Like, I literally just planned an extra podcast with Aaron and Marilyn. Right. Okay. For Endor? No. Well, we were talking about the War of the Rohirrim. Oh, for some. Okay.

[01:15:21] Oh, right. Right. Right. Yeah. But I'm really excited for that because I am frightened. I don't really know much about the Rohirrim lore, and I'm curious. I honestly, the Rohirrim are my weakest point of Tolkien lore, so I'm going to be relying a lot on the other two. I know Aaron especially is really into the Rohirrim lore, so it's going to be cool. Exciting. Exciting. And for people who are into the Wheel of Time lore, do you want to explain the whole season pass situation?

[01:15:51] Ten bucks, and you get the show guide. You get the bonus lore cast every week, and honestly, more often than that, because Alicia's got two bonus ones already. And you get ad-free episodes for just the Wheel of Time this season. And then, of course, you can always become a recurring subscriber for five bucks or ten bucks if you want your name written at the end of the episode. But a recurring subscriber will get you all of our bonus content and all of our podcasts ad-free. Yep. Yep.

[01:16:18] Or if you, you know, we really appreciate you just listening. You can help us out for free by sharing this episode or leaving a positive review wherever you're listening, especially if you mention the Wheel of Time. And yeah, we talked about there's obviously the War of the Rohirrim episode coming up. We've got a Daredevil episode that came out this well before this. As we're recording, it's going to be coming out. White Lotus season finale episode, I think.

[01:16:48] Yes, we're doing that on, I think we're recording that Wednesday night. I double booked us for, like, I have to do back-to-back recordings of Wheel of Time and then Doctor Who. We got, we're recording the first episode for that. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. We're recording the first episode because we got screeners. Yeah, thank you. That's so helpful. And, of course, full coverage coming up for The Last of Us and Andor. Phew! I know. I know.

[01:17:16] I don't even know what we're going to do with ourselves. So, if that's not enough for you to hear, well, there's a lot more. So, check out the link tree in the show notes with all the affiliates, Radioactive Ramblings, We'll Shift Dust, the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, Never Mind the Music, Properly Howard, Rings and Rituals. And, of course, there is in there the link to the Discord where there's all the, lots of hopping conversation for the Wheel of Time. A lot of hopper conversations.

[01:17:46] A lot of, aww. And not enough hopper conversations, if I'm perfectly honest. Show the wolf some respect. And if you want to show the wolf some respect in feedback for our feedback episode at the end of the season, then please send that to watt at the lorehounds.com. That's right. That's right. And Nancy will receive your feedback. Thank you, Nancy, our Keeper of the Chronicles.

[01:18:11] Thank you. We've got our Discord server boosters. Aaron K. Taylor the Thriller. Dork of the Ninjas. Doove 71. Athena A. Tina Lestu. Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition and Radioactive Richard. And our lore masters. Martian. Michael G. Michelle E. Brian E. S. C. Peter O. H. Bettina W. Adam S. Nancy M. Doove 71. Brian 8063. Frederick H. Sarah L.

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[01:19:11] And White Tower Talk with all the book spoilers after the outro. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Okay, the gag order has been removed.

[01:19:40] We are now talking about all of the books. So yeah, really, we're going to talk some major spoilers here. So you have been warned. We have to talk first, of course, about this loyal death. And does this mean he never falls in love? No, he's coming back. And this is stupid that they're even doing this. I'm just going to say that. Like, I didn't want to explicitly say he's coming back. But like, if they don't bring him back, that would be dumb. And the way that they did this fake out death was foolish.

[01:20:09] I, it was one of the things that most made me groan about this episode. Yeah. An episode filled with a bunch of groans. I mean, I didn't find it filled with a bunch of groans, but this was a thing where I was like, I don't understand why this is happening. Like, why does he need to be out of the way for a while? I guess. I don't know. I just don't like that. I think they've played the fake out death card too many times so far. They need to stop immediately.

[01:20:35] And it just feels like it's in service of a spectacle in, in a way that is not earned. Hmm. But I mean, I guess the other options are what if they were forced to only have one more season? Then I think Loyal would be gone for good and they would just cut all of the Ogier plotline. I don't think they could wrap this up in one more season. I think it would be a disaster. I mean, it would be a disaster, but they would have to, you know, do something drastic. Yeah.

[01:21:04] And we would just not get most of the story and that would be such a shame. It would always be. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, but that's the thing. Like either you cut out the Ogier storyline or you have another Ogier step into the picture, but then it's like, we don't want another Ogier. We want Loyal. Right. Yeah. Anyway. But one thing is, on the other hand, I was thinking about the difference in Fayol's backstory with her parents.

[01:21:32] And so now they said both of her parents are generals, which yeah, fine. Great. You know, in the books, it was her father was a general and that's, yeah. Both of her parents' generals, her mother is a dark friend. I'm like, what if we got a Bashir bowl where they were generals and armies that were fighting each other? Okay. All right. Fine. Fine. Fine. I mostly like, I don't want, I don't want Dira, if her name is Dira, right?

[01:22:01] Yeah. Yeah. I don't want Dira to be a dark friend. I want this to be a lie by, by Fayol. I don't want Fayol to, I would rather Dira be a dark friend because frankly, I don't really care that much about Dira. She's fine. She's, she's sassy. She, she could be a fun dark friend. Um, but I don't want Fayol to have lied to Perrin that big. It's one thing for her to lie a little bit about her name still. And I don't understand why she's doing that.

[01:22:28] If she's already said her parents are generals, but I don't want her to have lied about something that big as Perrin told her his whole heart and all of his deepest secrets, you know, that just makes me feel icky. Well, Fayol is kind of icky in the books too. She does a lot of stuff that makes me go ick. Well, she's mostly jealous. Yeah. But then later in the books, like when she's like, I want to flirt with this guy, but also I'm going to be the most jealous person ever. I'm like, okay, you just kind of suck.

[01:22:58] Yeah. I mean, that's where she's, it's, it's, that is where she's annoying. And then also just the plot around her being kidnapped for way too long. Oh my God. It's, it is an eternity. Yeah. Absolute eternity. Yeah. Um, but I hope on the Perrin side, as we alluded to earlier with Lord Luke, we need Slayer. And, you know, when I was thinking like with, they are kind of, they've at least left it

[01:23:25] open for the, the complications of who Slayer is because yeah, I don't know. Or what if they made half of Slayer Rand's dad instead of his uncle? Rand's dad. Oh, like, like his, his birth dad. I was like, Tam? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not Tam. Sorry. I was like, no. Sorry. Don't you dare besmirch the name of Tam Althor. No, like it's okay.

[01:23:51] So for anyone who doesn't know, both Rand's dad and uncle. And so his uncle being, uh, Galad's father, who's Elaine's. Okay. Yeah. It's complicated. So we had the Karian and family married into the, uh, and or family. And then we had the daughter heir who was Rand's mom, who just wandered off into the waste and

[01:24:20] fell in love with an IEO man. And then, um, his father, and then the, her husband married more gays and then he wandered off. Right. But he wandered into the blight and Rand's dad, after his mom died, his Rand's dad also wandered into the blight. Uh, but then they have like two separate stories. So what if they just combined those stories? If anyone followed all of that, the Andorran royal family has never heard of the buddy system. Not once.

[01:24:51] No. Well, cause guitar also told a couple, I think she told T grain and John doing maybe also to, I don't know. She encouraged some of them. Like you have to go wander off because prophecies. Right. Yeah. Look, I I'd be fine with that. Like, I don't really care who is the person in merge with Lord Luke. I don't think that changes anything dramatically. Right. But I just want him, I want the wolf dream thing. I want that to be a major focus next season.

[01:25:18] And I want, um, Slayer to be that menacing presence on parent's side. It's almost like Slayer's like the forsaken of wolf brothers. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's cool. I think, I think Slayer is a really interesting villain, especially I love that. I just recently re-listened to, I re, I listened to the real wheel of time books when I go to sleep sometimes because they're very comforting to me. And of course, comforting is a battle with a person in the dream world.

[01:25:46] And, uh, this whole part where like Perrin sends him off once by like pulling him into a nightmare. I, I, like, I think that's amazing. Yeah. I think we need to do that. That's, that's awesome. Yeah. And I just love so much also that like Perrin is secretly building up all these wolf dream skills, not realizing that, you know, say Egwene is building up dreams in Teleron Riyad. And then finally they meet and it's like, wait, you know how to wait, you know how to. Yeah.

[01:26:14] I love, I love there's this part where like Egwene's been doing this forever and, and Perrin and it's like, you shouldn't be here. It's dangerous. You don't even know. And she's like, girl, I know exactly what I'm doing here. Yeah. Cause that is, they do spend so much time separated. So it's fun when they meet back up in unexpected places like that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So now that we're on the other side of the river song, um, what do you think Alana's bigger plans might be?

[01:26:43] Or I, so I assume they're not going back to the tower because I think in the finale, we're going to get the setup for the split in the tower. And then I think season four will start with the split in the tower and immediately a bunch of them will go to Saladar. So it makes sense if, if Alana and the girls just go straight to Saladar, but where does she think she's going right now? I don't, I have no idea. And I just want to say on the tower split thing, what do you mean by we'll get the setup?

[01:27:11] Like, are we going to get Swan confronted and then no split yet? I don't know how far they would get. So I have to say, I read a review where someone said that they didn't get as far as they expected. And I just think there's also not enough time to do like the full, the full, okay. So let's just check in on what do we have to do in the finale? We have Alcar Dahl on the, um, waist side.

[01:27:37] Do we think there's going to be some, there's got to be at least like one big dramatic moment. Could it be Rand unleashing the water in Rodeon? Yeah, I think that could be it. Um, I, I, I don't think we're going to get Asmodian at all. Well, like at all here. I saw an interesting theory today somewhere, I think on Reddit where somebody said like maybe Asmodian will be like guarding the stone of tear and we still get them. Okay.

[01:28:06] Because it would be cool to have Rand get this like power boost of like, I'm getting trained by a Forsaken. Yeah. But I, I just thought that like Loghain was going to be that role because they already set him up for that last season. Yeah. But the, but the Forsaken know so much more about that. I know it's true. It's true. So he could have multiple teachers too. Yeah. Like where Loghain could have fulfilled that role early and that kept him in a little longer and then he'll go to do the Black Tower stuff later. Yeah.

[01:28:32] Uh, and then you could have Asmodian showing him like, Hey, here's how to like travel and stuff like that. Right. I know Rand like kind of figured that out himself with his memories, but, but still. But maybe now Landfear, now that, um, Rand knows that Landfear was torturing a Gwain is he's not going to want to be around her anymore. And so to keep him around, she'll be like, okay, I'll train you slash find someone to train you or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:28:59] They, I mean, they have done the work of saying a woman can't train a man in the power and vice versa. Right. But Landfear does actually tell him a lot in the books and then she's like, well, I can't directly do it. So she brings in Asmodian, but she does, she does teach him a lot, even though she can't like see his weaves or vice versa. Yeah, that's true. Actually. Yeah. Okay. So we have that. I mean, I'm assuming, okay. Okay.

[01:29:24] So we're going to have Rand without Cardall, but also there has to be some sort of Rand Landfear confrontation. But then also we have in, uh, Tanchico, obviously all those characters are going to converge in the Panarchs palace. Um, we're going to get like our whole crew. We're going to get Mogedion. We're going to get Leandrin there. They're going to be looking for the color and the bracelets are in function. Um, you and I are definitely expecting some ancient artifacts to be there. Yep.

[01:29:55] And, and maybe a doorway. Do we dare hope that there will be a twisted frame that Matt will fall through? I think, uh, I honestly don't know. I think that might be saved till next season. That's a lot. That's a lot to cram in. I know, but I, why did they bring him with them? Yeah. And the whole fact they have to resolve the fact that, uh, men's been seeing him hanging the whole season. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I mean, they could leave that going.

[01:30:23] Like it, it could be just, she didn't see it yet. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like they set that up so strongly that it feels like it needs to be resolved this season. I don't know what to expect on what they want to resolve the season because they're so like weird about the pacing of the show. But then that's, so that's the thing is like, so we have all that fit in. Um, I don't know if there's any time to check back in on what's going on in the two rivers or any of that stuff.

[01:30:53] Yeah. Um, or, or for the tower to fully break. Like, I think we might just get a lighter calling a vote or something, or I don't know. Yeah. I, I don't see, I don't think that they can have another full tower battle since they started the season with that. And also since, um, there's going to be so much else they have to spend the money on. Right. Well, that's what I mean is like, what if they just have her have, have a lighter kick open the door and confront her and that's it. That's all you see. Yeah. Maybe, maybe something like that.

[01:31:23] I could see that. They definitely don't have time to do like the warders battling or whatever. Or there's a tower vote and it goes against Swan. Yeah. Some kind of foreshadowing. Yeah. How do you think Perrin's going to get out of the situation? I was thinking maybe what if Fael's kidnapped while Perrin is with the White Cloaks? Hmm. That could be, or, or, um, the thing is, I, I would be okay with them like resolving his whole culpability with the White Cloaks early.

[01:31:53] Like, I honestly felt like that was a little bit of a dragged out situation too. Mm-hmm. And I didn't think like, I did not think the trial was very satisfying. Um, but, but, uh, maybe Dane has a change of heart. Like he already did have a little bit of a change of heart with, um, you know, bringing the White Cloaks in general. I could see him sort of like cooling off a little bit and realizing he did wrong with, with Natty Cawthon and being like, let's call it even. Yeah.

[01:32:23] That's why I, I hesitate to say I want it to be over too quickly just because I do think, and I assume the reason they're doing this is to let Perrin and Dane start to bro out, especially without Gaul. Maybe, yeah, I don't know. And I think especially now they've taken out Valda, they've already resolved the Fane thing. We've already, even Jai Chim, uh, Carradine, who was a dark friend, White Cloak, he's already gone.

[01:32:50] He, he was the whole thing in the books, but anyway, just the gray man this season. Um, maybe next, starting next season, they're ready to start like softening the White Cloak image a bit. Yeah. Maybe it takes a long time in the books and I'd be speeding that up too. And, and also like, are they going to have Gala join the White Cloaks at all? I think, yeah, I think so. I hope so. I wonder, Ooh, that's a good question too. Are the princes going to like show up in Tanchico at the end of the season? Or is that it?

[01:33:19] Have we seen, or are they still in the tower and will be involved in whatever is there? Or have we just seen the end of them for this season? They intercept them on their way to Saladar basically. Right. Mm-hmm. In, in, yeah. So that's later, but yeah, maybe they'll do that. Maybe they'll figure it out. I mean, I don't know. It seems like they, they had them there. They could have at least film a scene at the tower if they're supposed to, I don't know

[01:33:45] if they're supposed to be still at the tower now, or if they've left looking for Elaine. I don't know either. The show has not shown us the tower in a long time. Yeah. Well, definitely going to check in into the finale. All right. Any other thoughts or hopes or questions? I hope Amazon gives us the finale screener soon because now I want to watch. Yes. Yeah, I know. I wish I could press play now, but we don't even have access because we sacrificed it

[01:34:13] for all of the listeners so that we didn't watch ahead. They gave us access at first and we just didn't watch ahead and now we only have access through seven, but they said they'll give us access ahead. So hopefully episode eight is not delayed for us. Yes. So hopefully we'll be watching that soon, but for now, yeah, really I'm excited about the finale because there's so much in there that I love from the books that I can't wait to see how it plays out. And Savannah's coming back.

[01:34:43] All right there. Never thought I'd be excited to see her. Yeah, I guess that's it then for this week. So do check in on the Supercast and Patreon feeds for the Lorecast about Minetherin and the Two Rivers. See you there. Bye. The wheel of time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.

[01:35:06] In one podcast called the Lorehounds by some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two wheel of time super fans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies and cutthroat politics. Join me, John and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of season three by searching your podcast app for the Lorehounds. Dovyeandi se tovas again. It's time to roll the dice.