Shōgun - E06 - Ladies of the Willow World

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Shogun Podcast where the Lorehounds your guide to the political intrigues of

[00:00:21] feudal Japan.

[00:00:22] I'm David.

[00:00:23] And I'm Alicia and this is our coverage for episode 6 titled Ladies of the Willow World

[00:00:28] of the FX Limited Series Shogun.

[00:00:31] Alicia, it's another topsy-turvy week for us here in the life of the Lorehounds.

[00:00:38] Thanks for jumping in again today.

[00:00:40] Always glad?

[00:00:41] Yes, we're always glad to have you.

[00:00:43] John's managing some family related issues.

[00:00:46] I'm still recovering from my maladies.

[00:00:49] I'm not ready to quite write a new will just yet but I think we're going to do our best

[00:00:55] to get through.

[00:00:56] We're going to start off with our hot takes.

[00:00:59] I've got a couple of historical notes and then we can discuss some plot and character

[00:01:03] in favorite moments of the episodes.

[00:01:06] And then I think we've scraped together a little bit of feedback.

[00:01:08] I think we've got a voicemail from Michael and then you got some stuff off the discord.

[00:01:12] I mean, as far as your will as James Clevel wrote, leave the problems of God to God and

[00:01:18] Carmada Karma today.

[00:01:19] You're here and nothing you can do will change that tomorrow does not exist.

[00:01:24] There is only now.

[00:01:25] There is only the podcast.

[00:01:26] I might have heard it as a last break.

[00:01:29] I got some whorepilation there.

[00:01:33] That's true.

[00:01:34] There is only now.

[00:01:35] So let's do it.

[00:01:36] If anyone has any thoughts or feedback about any of the topics that we cover today or

[00:01:42] the show in general, please send emails to Shogun at the lorehounds.com or head to

[00:01:47] the contact page on the website and use the form there to record or record us a voicemail

[00:01:53] and we can drop that right into the podcast.

[00:01:56] That's right.

[00:01:57] And don't forget, you can join us on our discord.

[00:01:59] There's going to be a link in the show notes.

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[00:02:22] We'll have some more notes about our upcoming program schedule, our affiliate podcasts.

[00:02:27] We'll do all that at the end of the episode and remember go check out rings and rituals by

[00:02:33] Marilyn Arpequilla and Dr. Sarah Brown.

[00:02:36] That season is just on fire.

[00:02:38] It's great.

[00:02:39] Go to the show notes, find the link and subscribe to that podcast.

[00:02:43] You really enjoy it, especially if you're talking but even if you're not talking, it's

[00:02:48] some really profound, interesting insights.

[00:02:50] Really great lore.

[00:02:52] Alicia, what did you think of this episode?

[00:02:55] It was pretty, it's an amazing episode.

[00:02:58] Yeah, no, it was as beautiful as the title.

[00:03:04] I have the idea.

[00:03:05] I haven't read the book and I have not watched the old mini series but something tells

[00:03:10] me that we're getting more in depth perspective from the female characters than we did in

[00:03:16] these previous versions.

[00:03:18] It feels, it's sad to say, it feels modern that they consider the interlives of women.

[00:03:24] Right, there you go.

[00:03:26] Which I'm sure they did in the novel to a certain degree but I just, yeah, I think I've heard

[00:03:30] that seeing them together, Mariko and Ochoiba or what was she called then Rory.

[00:03:36] Yeah, Rory, yeah.

[00:03:39] That seeing them together as kids, you know, that really does add extra weight and depth

[00:03:44] to this conflict adds more tones of gray, which I love.

[00:03:50] By the way, we were wondering if we had seen Ochoiba before and I was thinking about it,

[00:03:57] there was like in the second episode, there was the group of women and that was, I didn't

[00:04:01] know who any of the characters were yet but I think she was there actually.

[00:04:05] Oh, okay, okay.

[00:04:06] I think you're right because I remember seeing Ochoiba in our show in the show guide,

[00:04:10] in the character guide and the ship's rudder that we've built, that she did show up much

[00:04:15] earlier on.

[00:04:16] But I don't remember the scene very well.

[00:04:18] Yeah, no, I remember because I was still at the time trying to suss out the relationships

[00:04:23] of all the different characters so I, but yes, because there was the wife of the Tyco

[00:04:28] and then she was brought on and that's where we learned that.

[00:04:33] But yeah, I think it's interesting that people are making a lot of not to bring up, you know,

[00:04:37] the dragon show again.

[00:04:39] Yeah, I know.

[00:04:40] Or not to.

[00:04:41] It's just there are so many similarities.

[00:04:44] Obviously not with dragons or, you know, magic but just in the political maneuverings and

[00:04:48] just these rich political tapestries with complex characters and then more like great characters.

[00:04:56] And so a lot of people are making comparisons between Alison and Ray Nira from House of

[00:05:01] the Dragon to Archive and Achieba here.

[00:05:06] Yeah, it's kind of exciting that we've got House of the Dragon coming in just a couple

[00:05:10] of months.

[00:05:11] Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:12] And yeah, especially have that world on my mind because just yesterday I recorded an

[00:05:18] episode with Anthony for Electric Bookaloo.

[00:05:20] No, just talking about that.

[00:05:22] Cool.

[00:05:23] Cool.

[00:05:24] Just talking about Clash of Kings.

[00:05:27] But yeah, I actually, I think I'm thinking more of Theon which because again it's a situation

[00:05:33] where you are taken in as a sort of hostage but then Ray's as a child of the family.

[00:05:40] Right.

[00:05:41] Right.

[00:05:42] I guess there's something that happened in Europe as well as in Japan.

[00:05:46] Yeah, yeah, interesting.

[00:05:47] Yeah, the whole idea that a noble is worth something and I think I mentioned this

[00:05:55] in the first episode, way back in the first episode.

[00:05:59] If you if taking your own life is an unexpected and a process or a thing that was very normalized

[00:06:14] as a noble that is worth something, you can take yourself off the board in that regard

[00:06:21] and not obligate your family into this debt situation.

[00:06:25] So it's a very interesting comparison when we look at two feudal societies where there's

[00:06:30] a lot of structural similarities and I am no means an academic in this at all but just

[00:06:36] on surface level, there seems to be some strong parallels but then there's this one thing

[00:06:41] that's very different.

[00:06:42] I remember hearing an episode with Anthony talking with a historian and they talked about

[00:06:47] this idea that a night rides out onto the battlefield in medieval Europe and big shiny armor

[00:06:54] with a big horse, they're just advertising, hey I'm a bag of money so don't kill me.

[00:06:58] You know, I'll try and kill you but like if you want to take me down and hold me hostage

[00:07:02] that's fine too.

[00:07:04] Where in Japan it's like no we don't do that except in very slight circumstances which

[00:07:09] maybe some children and women.

[00:07:11] So yeah.

[00:07:13] I do.

[00:07:14] And I'm just sort of theorizing here.

[00:07:15] Yeah.

[00:07:17] I do have one little complaint about this episode and it's not really a new one but just

[00:07:22] the perfect example of why it bugs me so much that they are not using Portuguese when

[00:07:30] they say they're using Portuguese is that whole prayer scene at the beginning of the

[00:07:34] episode where we have John and we have Mariko praying on different sides of a wall and

[00:07:40] so they hear each other.

[00:07:41] She's praying in Latin, he's praying in was it English or was it Portuguese?

[00:07:46] Because this is important to how I interpret the scene because if it was Portuguese then

[00:07:51] she understands it's the same prayer.

[00:07:55] But of course one of the key differences between Catholicism and the Protestants religions

[00:08:00] is that the idea that you don't have to pray in Latin, you can pray in your common language

[00:08:05] and be closer to God that way.

[00:08:07] So it's an interesting point in that but if he's praying in Portuguese that's not really

[00:08:12] natural for him so it's something he's putting on for her and she should be suspicious.

[00:08:16] However if he's praying in English that's more natural for him but then she must just

[00:08:22] recognize that the rhythm of is the same or something like that because she wouldn't

[00:08:26] understand it.

[00:08:27] So little things like that, that's a nearly perfect show and this is the one major thing

[00:08:33] that's holding it back for me.

[00:08:36] I would think that I mean I think that's a really interesting point and I take a point

[00:08:42] and I would have thought that she would have been if she's Catholic Jesuit, she would

[00:08:47] have been doing the Lord's Prayer in Latin would she have not because on the...

[00:08:51] She was doing it in Latin.

[00:08:53] That's weird because I saw on the subtitles I had the English subtitles on on my second

[00:08:58] watch and it said praying in Japanese.

[00:09:00] Oh mine said praying in Latin.

[00:09:02] Okay, interesting.

[00:09:04] Interesting, interesting.

[00:09:06] So do you think maybe and I'm still a little bit in a slightly adult state so I don't

[00:09:11] know that I was picking up on everything but don't you think that Black Thorn would

[00:09:18] have recognized the Latin?

[00:09:21] Right, he would have recognized the Latin version of the Lord's Prayer even though he

[00:09:28] was a Protestant.

[00:09:29] I would assume that to be the Catholic.

[00:09:31] I think so.

[00:09:32] Yeah and then does he pray back in Latin so that...

[00:09:36] No well, I mean so he's either praying in English or Portuguese but yeah there's a

[00:09:41] key distinction to me there so...

[00:09:43] I still think your point though is valid that he picked up on the pacing and the tonality

[00:09:50] and the highs and lows of it, the beaten pattern of it and so that's why he was able to sink

[00:09:57] in which I think it still tells a beautiful story about these sort of Romeo and Juliet

[00:10:01] Esk.

[00:10:02] Right, no I'm not...

[00:10:05] I don't consider it a nitpick but well let it rest.

[00:10:10] It's an elusive thing but we take the point, we take the point.

[00:10:14] But yeah overall obviously very good episode and it really lines things up to explode the

[00:10:20] next episode even more than those poor horses last episode.

[00:10:25] But yeah so there's four episodes to go and I feel like there's...

[00:10:30] That leaves a lot of ground to wrap up this story so I'm wondering how many more different

[00:10:35] twists and turns are going to come up in those next four episodes.

[00:10:39] I think that's a really good point and I think it goes into one of my thoughts which is...

[00:10:43] I have no idea where the story is going.

[00:10:46] I have no idea how it's going to be resolved and I...

[00:10:51] For other reasons but also partially intentionally have stopped watching the 80s,

[00:10:55] many series in parallel and I've mentioned this a couple times on the podcast before because

[00:11:00] I really am enjoying the surprise and the delight of how they're evolving this story

[00:11:06] and taking it and I really want to feel that...

[00:11:11] I really want to have that experience of not knowing what's coming at us.

[00:11:16] I really want to be on the hook for oh my god how is this going to resolve?

[00:11:21] This is one of the most confident shows that I've watched in a long time.

[00:11:28] It really feels like the showrunners and the writers are very self-aware, very confident

[00:11:36] in the techniques of modern television making.

[00:11:40] Really understand their story and their characters really well and I'm just so impressed at how

[00:11:45] they can use the camera to tell the story so we get a couple of things where Kiku is behind

[00:11:51] Madiko and sort of speaking through and they line the camera up so that there's an eclipse

[00:11:56] effect that's happening there or later when Ochoiba is talking to Ishido and she moves

[00:12:05] and then the camera moves relative again so that she's sort of this shadowy figure

[00:12:11] from behind in some way making him sort of turn to her slightly.

[00:12:16] It's just expert level television making, it's exceptional to watch.

[00:12:23] This idea of bringing Ochoiba in at episode five...

[00:12:28] It's like a second stage rocket booster, right?

[00:12:32] She's so complex and there's so much history that unlocks once we get her and we understand

[00:12:39] what's going on.

[00:12:41] And again, that's a measure of confidence.

[00:12:44] We're gonna hold this major character back until episode five.

[00:12:49] Yeah, there's a little thing too, like you said but it's not consequential.

[00:12:54] And there's talk of her being at Tornagas Castle and all of that.

[00:12:59] Yeah, I think it's smart.

[00:13:01] They let us get to know the other characters.

[00:13:03] I think you're absolutely right.

[00:13:04] I think...

[00:13:05] And this idea that they can move the storyline...

[00:13:12] There's not a lot of subplots going on and it's not like we're jumping around.

[00:13:19] Oh, we gotta jump back to Osaka and then we gotta jump over here.

[00:13:23] And so this one part of the town, we gotta go over the Canon Regiment and the boat and

[00:13:26] Modata.

[00:13:27] They're really keeping a very tight focus on a mean theme or...

[00:13:34] Or as it means elements in each story so we don't have a lot of ABC subplots going.

[00:13:39] And again, a very interesting technique and it feels very connected.

[00:13:44] I don't feel like lost like I'm jumping around.

[00:13:46] I completely forgot about the Jesuit mission.

[00:13:49] And then suddenly there's Father Alvino and the other guy for his name out of top of

[00:13:55] the head.

[00:13:56] But I'm like, oh God, right, I forgot the Jesuits going on here because I'm so engrossed

[00:13:59] in the story.

[00:14:00] Yeah.

[00:14:01] You know who I keep forgetting about but when I think about him, I miss him but then

[00:14:06] I'm so distracted by everything else is the Spanish sailor.

[00:14:09] Oh yeah, Rodriguez.

[00:14:10] Rodriguez, yeah.

[00:14:11] Absolutely.

[00:14:12] Are we gonna see him again?

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:15] I mean, I never think about it while I'm watching.

[00:14:17] And then it's like, oh wait, it's been a while.

[00:14:19] We haven't seen him since the big almost declaration of love with the director.

[00:14:24] Exactly.

[00:14:25] Yeah, Del Aqua and Alvino and Rodriguez, yeah.

[00:14:31] We just had to do or the black ship right?

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] I mean, he says he wants to go after it so I guess presumably maybe he'll be allowed.

[00:14:40] And that's a thing too.

[00:14:42] They're threading a whole bunch of things but we don't know when or how things are

[00:14:47] going to come back.

[00:14:48] And that is expert.

[00:14:50] It's really, really fantastic stuff.

[00:14:54] Couple of other thoughts, a couple of major themes that I picked up in this episode but

[00:14:59] I think we can talk about it when we get into talking about the episode in depth are

[00:15:04] the use of theater not only explicitly in this episode but in general the way that

[00:15:11] Toronaga operates and the political theater but then theater as a device.

[00:15:17] As a literal no, yeah.

[00:15:19] Yeah, yeah, as a device to bring drama together and tie things together in a storyline.

[00:15:28] And it's very checkovian to mention Crimson Sky and then bring it back at the end.

[00:15:34] Right.

[00:15:35] It's again theater within theater kind of thing.

[00:15:37] And then this idea of war and this inevitability of war that's coming but then this idea of a

[00:15:42] woman at war, a woman's war.

[00:15:46] And so there's a bunch to talk about there.

[00:15:50] And then I'm thinking about Anna Suwai's performance is just off the charts in this episode

[00:15:55] or the way that she reveals her interior, the way that Anna Suwai as an actor is managing

[00:16:03] her character and then giving us little glimpses and then hiding them and then another

[00:16:08] little glimpse and then a hide.

[00:16:09] Yeah, because this is the third thing I've seen her in recently.

[00:16:14] The other two being Pachinko and Monarch.

[00:16:17] And she really seems to be blossoming especially in this role also in Pachinko and Monarch

[00:16:22] you know Monarch's fine.

[00:16:23] I kind of love the monsterverse now.

[00:16:25] I talk smack on Godzilla versus Kong.

[00:16:27] I'm all in on it now.

[00:16:30] I saw a trailer again.

[00:16:31] I went and saw a Dune II again and I saw the trailer and it was like, okay this is fast

[00:16:35] and furious Lion King.

[00:16:37] Like it's so it's like a blender of like IP.

[00:16:42] It's got just enough lore and you know heart to string me along for the big monster fights

[00:16:49] yeah.

[00:16:50] Fair enough.

[00:16:51] Fair enough.

[00:16:52] Yeah, she's exceptional.

[00:16:54] She's an exceptional actor.

[00:16:56] This show is really giving her.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] If this show is giving her lots of room to work.

[00:17:03] I really enjoyed the flashbacks in this episode rather than giving this explicit drop

[00:17:09] the camera into the scene and talking us through.

[00:17:13] It's more like it felt more like how memory naturally works and how we have an impression

[00:17:20] or we have maybe a line or two of dialogue that was said or a particular point of view

[00:17:27] and there's a, you know, maybe a smell or a touch sensation.

[00:17:30] So these all felt very more rooted into how memory really works.

[00:17:37] I mean they're still doing modern television but this idea like the idea of the two girls

[00:17:43] you know going to bed and then they sort of scooch towards each other you know back

[00:17:47] to back then.

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:49] And then I could feel my back touching you know their bat you know and it was just it

[00:17:52] was so beautiful the way that they they brought everything together and it's one of

[00:17:56] all talk about them in the favorite moments is a flashback part.

[00:17:59] Yeah, I almost wish we had gotten more of that.

[00:18:02] It makes me think of there's this Belgian film that it was Oscar nominated a couple

[00:18:08] years ago called Close which just anyone who needs a good cry like this have me crying

[00:18:16] for like weeks after.

[00:18:17] It's just about two young boys that age and there and yeah, a monster is another good one

[00:18:23] won't make you cry for weeks afterwards.

[00:18:25] Right.

[00:18:26] The Japanese film we talked about before but yeah, yeah.

[00:18:30] Even though I love this episode there were a couple of points where I was a little confused

[00:18:35] and with the flashbacks there were some parts I wasn't I didn't pick up on until the

[00:18:39] second watch and then I actually had to go back and watch the scene a couple of times

[00:18:42] and I don't know which is my brain isn't not operating at full capacity but I got confused

[00:18:47] during some of the flashback stuff about who is who and whose relationship is to who.

[00:18:52] So we can talk that through when we get to the character conversations.

[00:18:57] And then there was one other thing I just didn't understand which is the fire at Osaka

[00:19:00] castle.

[00:19:01] Yeah, that would I mean because it took me a while to realize I think because I wasn't

[00:19:06] sure when that was happening the fire at Osaka.

[00:19:09] Yeah, I thought it was flashback.

[00:19:10] Ultimately, yeah, I think ultimately it was present time right?

[00:19:13] So yes, it was.

[00:19:14] Yeah, but I was throughout the episode.

[00:19:17] I was like, wait, is this in the past or is this in the present or is yeah.

[00:19:20] And then Delakwa rides his horse back to the mission, to the Jesuit mission and he's

[00:19:25] like, oh, I couldn't get in whatever.

[00:19:29] There was a major fire and there's like a hostage situation going on and he's just

[00:19:33] like, oh no, I couldn't get in the castle.

[00:19:35] It was very mundane and I thought well this huge fire in saw it.

[00:19:40] Yeah, it was a little confusing anyway.

[00:19:43] My minor nitpicks relative.

[00:19:45] Anything else you want to talk about in a big picture sense?

[00:19:50] Got a couple of historical notes.

[00:19:52] Yeah, no, I mean, I think we're definitely going to dive into more history also at the

[00:20:00] end and the feedback too, but I'm very curious about the notes you have here because

[00:20:04] I other than no, I don't know much about any of the rest.

[00:20:08] So no is the classical Japanese theater and according to Wikipedia, it's the oldest

[00:20:15] theater that's still regularly performed.

[00:20:17] So maybe Greek theater is older, but it's not ongoing in the way that no theater is

[00:20:25] happening constantly, I guess continually in Japan.

[00:20:29] So I think that's really interesting and some other notes that I picked up from various

[00:20:34] sources a little bit of, from a couple different podcasts that the, these are tales from

[00:20:42] traditional literature, sometimes involving the supernatural to a degree.

[00:20:46] So it made me think very Shakespearean in some regards where the play is reflecting reality

[00:20:53] to a little bit.

[00:20:54] Well, I know when I went to Japan, I looked into this a little bit more because I was

[00:21:00] very curious about this because I didn't know anything, I didn't know anything about

[00:21:04] no before that.

[00:21:06] I ended up not going to see it.

[00:21:08] Everyone was like, just go to Kabuki, just go see Kabuki because apparently no, it

[00:21:14] was just for the very upper class back then.

[00:21:18] And it was performed by the upper class as well.

[00:21:21] Right.

[00:21:22] And so it was very restrained and refined.

[00:21:26] So apparently it's just a very, from a modern perspective, it's kind of a slow watching

[00:21:32] experience with very slow movements and, yeah, just very...

[00:21:37] Delivery acting.

[00:21:38] And even when we see Lord Ito and he's intoning Ochiba's name and he's, oh, you know,

[00:21:44] yeah, exactly.

[00:21:45] That was, that was in a monster scene that was so incredible.

[00:21:49] Anyway, we'll talk about that later.

[00:21:50] So yeah, I thought that was interesting.

[00:21:52] And then the fact that Lord Ito is performing in it, that's another thing that confused

[00:21:58] me, which is just from historical, not knowing, is that this is a theater that was performed

[00:22:05] by nobles.

[00:22:06] And like you said, four nobles.

[00:22:07] So that's...

[00:22:08] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:22:12] But yeah, then it's interesting because Kabuki, maybe that's more accessible if we're

[00:22:15] not familiar with the four.

[00:22:16] Yeah, it's more engaging.

[00:22:18] There's more lively, I guess, more happening.

[00:22:21] Got it.

[00:22:22] Right.

[00:22:23] I think of a Shakespearean style play, you know, in one of the...

[00:22:27] Like, you know, in Henry or any of the more historical dramas that Shakespeare would have

[00:22:33] written, that would have been contemporary, not contemporaneous but in some ways talking

[00:22:40] about real world things and illuminating the interiors of people.

[00:22:44] So cool stuff.

[00:22:47] I did a minor dive into Shoji versus Fusuma, Matt's The Walls because I was interested

[00:22:57] in this idea that Black Thorn and Madiko were on opposite sides of this paper wall.

[00:23:06] And it was like, wait, why are Japanese houses designed this way?

[00:23:10] So there's a whole series of articles on Wikipedia.

[00:23:13] And a Shoji mat is that, or Shoji wall, is that wall that...

[00:23:18] Like paper wall?

[00:23:20] Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:21] With the lattice work and then the paper.

[00:23:23] And then there's Fusuma which are more substantial walls that are still lightweight and very movable

[00:23:32] but usually have a design or drawing of some kind on them but they provide a little bit

[00:23:38] more privacy and maybe blockage.

[00:23:40] And there's like about a dozen different kinds of walls that have slats and lattices.

[00:23:46] There are special ones that go on the outside of a house that can be taken down.

[00:23:50] So during different weather patterns you can put these things in and bring them out.

[00:23:54] There's a whole series of wall hanging curtain-like things so when we see Torinaga at his headquarters

[00:24:02] he's got the big fabrics around him.

[00:24:06] Those are, have special names and designations in certain ways that you use them.

[00:24:10] It was an incredible amount of detail into architecture.

[00:24:16] As functional as they are, they also have this...

[00:24:20] Everything just has a rich purpose and design aesthetic imbued in them.

[00:24:26] If I'm just looking at my door, I'm like, okay let's just a door and that's just a

[00:24:30] door frame.

[00:24:31] It's like no there's a lot more going on.

[00:24:33] My big question was though why were Japanese houses constructed in that way with the moveable

[00:24:40] walls?

[00:24:42] And from what I can understand is that you can reconfigure the house depending on mood,

[00:24:52] time of day and season so that you can maximize some aesthetic value.

[00:25:00] So oh okay the sun's rising over here and the garden is here and it's not too cold out

[00:25:04] so let's open up a little bit and then we can sit here and enjoy our breakfast.

[00:25:08] Okay now it's late afternoon and the sun is beaming in so let's close that off and open

[00:25:13] this here and we'll have a breezeway.

[00:25:15] So highly adaptable houses for this idea of an aesthetic sense that would then have

[00:25:23] an effect on spirit and mood and allow you to find serenity or calmness or enjoyment

[00:25:32] of some kind to appreciate beauty in different ways.

[00:25:35] You can hear the outside, you can smell the outside, you can feel the outside even though

[00:25:40] maybe walls are closed.

[00:25:42] You're still connected light could be playing off of shadow and make designs on the walls

[00:25:49] and things like that so it was really a fascinating exploration into understanding.

[00:25:54] Oh this isn't just about earthquake proofing in the houses right so I don't have a big

[00:25:59] beam falling on my head.

[00:26:01] Well but I think that yeah that is also a play rule for sure though.

[00:26:04] Absolutely.

[00:26:05] Just being able to quickly tear it down and tear it back up.

[00:26:08] And then we can back up.

[00:26:09] Yeah exactly.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:11] So another couple of things that I hooked on so we talked about Koku before as a unit

[00:26:17] of measurements.

[00:26:18] So Black Dorn has given a village or a little mini province of 600 that's worth 600 Koku

[00:26:26] so that's the amount of rice to feed one person for a year and then even that amount could

[00:26:33] fluctuate during a year based on abundance or scarcity.

[00:26:38] But then when Mariko was negotiating with what's her name here I'm looking on the ships

[00:26:50] rudder.

[00:26:51] Anyway the matum of the giant gen here is gen when she's negotiating with gen they're

[00:26:57] talking about 500 mon me or you know 200 300 and so apparently moon and I don't know

[00:27:04] what the ME on the end of M.O.N. is but it's the cleanage of the period and so and then

[00:27:12] I was reading into that and I completely lost.

[00:27:15] I was like okay well how much is one moon equal to a Koku and then it was like oh there's

[00:27:20] Ryu and there's this and that and different periods and times and I was like okay I

[00:27:24] can't do this.

[00:27:25] I feel like Koku it seems to be about would be more converted to acres you know it's

[00:27:33] like how much land can produce this amount of rice.

[00:27:36] Interesting yeah because if you're going to be 600 Koku worth you need that much land

[00:27:41] that certain kind of density as opposed to coinage which could be highly fluctuate and

[00:27:47] then apparently the coinage of the period of those early of the different era were precise

[00:27:54] measurements in weights as well they were very precise so again very interesting looking

[00:28:01] at Japanese culture and the advancements and developments and the sociological developments

[00:28:07] that they had to.

[00:28:08] It's about a pound you know give or take no no these were like a lot of things.

[00:28:11] Well but it used to be it used to be precise in Europe too but then people started shaving

[00:28:17] and that's why you use yeah people started literally shaving off the top.

[00:28:21] Exactly so but if anybody of any of our listeners has any more insight into a mon or a

[00:28:28] mon that would be interesting and then there's a last thing which I couldn't figure out anything

[00:28:34] on and who is it somebody says oh during the play I believe it is Lady Eo says to Ociba

[00:28:45] about that he was somebody was somebody's favorite kosho and I'm not sure what that I couldn't

[00:28:52] find any online definitions for that.

[00:28:54] It seems to have been a name of a few emperors I don't know if that yeah I found that too but

[00:29:01] I didn't get any you know favorite what favorite leader favorite general favorite

[00:29:06] I'm sure so anyway those are the main just a few historical tidbits that I had did you

[00:29:13] have anything else otherwise we can know army will wrap back around to we got a nice

[00:29:19] history lesson from from a professional.

[00:29:23] Okay.

[00:29:24] At the edge.

[00:29:25] Awesome.

[00:29:26] Well let's take a quick break and then when we come back we can start talking about plot

[00:29:30] and character.

[00:29:44] And we are back.

[00:29:46] Alright let's start talking about plot and character of the show I wanted to lead us off

[00:29:52] a little bit first talking about war as a concept and as a kind of character in this story

[00:30:00] as well and I thought it was really interesting this line that you know men go to war for

[00:30:06] reasons but women are just at war and I really was like oh that's interesting and thought

[00:30:15] about what is a woman's war and being at war all the time and thinking about Kiku and

[00:30:21] thinking about Madiko and thinking about Achiba and various other characters who are trying

[00:30:30] to maintain position, to gain advantage in position, to survive or to not survive that

[00:30:38] there's this constant tension that's going on that is described by Madiko as war as a

[00:30:45] constant state of war.

[00:30:48] Well I think especially from someone like Achiba's perspective if even if we look at it

[00:30:55] from today we have to imagine that it was far worse you know hundreds of years ago but

[00:31:01] today the way that women are socialized and this also goes for minority groups of all

[00:31:07] types as well is that we are kind of raised with the idea that if we want a position of power

[00:31:15] there can only be one really one of our kind.

[00:31:19] It's a tokenism effect.

[00:31:21] And so we often you often find you know in sociology studies and social psychology that women

[00:31:29] are trained to hold other women down because there's only that one spot we're both

[00:31:34] fighting for but the women's war is very different from the men's war because you know men

[00:31:40] are taught to if they have a problem punch each other I'm simplifying here and women

[00:31:47] are taught much more in serious ways to take each other down.

[00:31:51] And so you have to and this I can only imagine would be greatly amplified in 17th century

[00:31:59] Japanese culture this whole idea of the eightfold fence and just being always extra on guard

[00:32:07] and the way you have to maneuver for power when none is given to you you know as an

[00:32:16] exercising your agency in a situation without being without breaking social.

[00:32:20] Where you are yeah where you are literally told that you belong to the men in your life.

[00:32:25] Right yeah your property and it's interesting when that's an interesting moment then when

[00:32:31] Lado Chiba Chiba Nokata says to Ishi do your will is now bent to mine the council will now

[00:32:39] follow me and then when Sugiyama and what's his name the other regent are sitting in the play

[00:32:48] watching it going on and I believe it's Sugiyama Okiyama is the other one when Sugiyama says

[00:32:56] we're all trapped by that woman and you know he's very and he's a noble of high born status

[00:33:03] right and he doesn't like Ishi do because Ishi does a commoner who's is himself up yeah

[00:33:10] and he's he's very offended by the fact that Lado Chiba is exercising some kind of agency in

[00:33:17] this situation as opposed to just being that passive motherly figure for the for the air.

[00:33:23] Right yeah well she's definitely clutched the reins tightly as soon as she showed up so I can

[00:33:29] imagine that would wrap up some feathers and it's it's seen all the way out through even to

[00:33:33] the Jesuits because I believe Father Alvito says like oh this whole thing is accelerated ever since

[00:33:41] she got back right so he can even see the machinations all the way outside of the castle walls

[00:33:48] so yeah I think like what you said about her being like a booster you know for the story

[00:33:56] the second stage of booster yeah yeah I can't help but also I had the same thing here in the notes

[00:34:02] I'm just reminded of House of the Dragon season one where you know a woman's a woman's war

[00:34:08] what's a woman's war versus a man's war just that question not not not doing a direct comp but

[00:34:13] just doing the okay you know we have conflict we have dramatic conflict happening what does that

[00:34:19] look like for on a gender scale on a gender POV so and you know you mentioned the way that women

[00:34:28] are socialized and I'm thinking as a parent and as a parent to a girl who is very much a girl she's

[00:34:38] she's like my pronouns are she or and she's into all kinds of things that are stereotypically girl

[00:34:46] which is interesting because we didn't we tried not to bend one way or the other we just tried

[00:34:52] to be sort of neutral and she's discovering this a lot our own but watching how at school they are

[00:35:00] trying to balance a lot of cultural imperatives around competition and dominance and how you

[00:35:12] achieve social prominence in a situation and how you mitigate conflict when there is conflict

[00:35:20] between individuals or groups and I'm thinking of there's a national program called Girls on the

[00:35:26] Run that were that our daughters participating in and it's a teaching teamwork and sports and

[00:35:33] athleticism and you know health and fitness and this kind of stuff and they are really

[00:35:40] de-emphasizing the competition aspect of it and this is just a one place where I can really

[00:35:47] easily point to and highlight it's not about beating somebody else it's about performing your

[00:35:53] individual performance and then you measure yourself kind of against other people but not in a

[00:35:59] competitive way but in a hey you know we're all trying to do better and then at the same time

[00:36:05] thinking of the team's well-being and trying to make sure everybody on your team is competing to

[00:36:11] their best it's a tricky rope to tight walk to you know find a way to raise individual and give them

[00:36:21] standards of measurement without putting people down for yes yeah and at the same time preparing

[00:36:28] for the real world right because when you go out into the workplace you're going to find other

[00:36:33] people who are competitive who will try to put you down or undercut you and how do you manage that

[00:36:38] emotionally and in intelligent and in an intelligent way that doesn't you don't take yourself out

[00:36:45] right so let's talk a little bit about theater this and this idea of a play within a play it was

[00:36:55] it was a really incredible scene I thought and I can't help but think we I think John John and I

[00:37:03] were talking about this before using a festival or a carnival as a device in a plot in a storyline

[00:37:10] and of course dinners right we were just talking about dune and you know dinner scenes

[00:37:16] apocalypse now famously has a has a dinner scene that actually gets cut from from the movie

[00:37:21] but I love these sort of little devices that you can put into a show into a storyline and then

[00:37:29] use that as this nexus point where people are brought in into conversation right and also it adds

[00:37:35] you know adds a little spectacle for the viewer at home too yeah absolutely because this is

[00:37:41] the place where often these are best episodes of TV shows because you get that that fun spectacle

[00:37:48] of you know I love period pieces and it's all about the balls and but it's you get that visual

[00:37:56] the dancing the music so that yeah it's definitely be another one of these festival elements yeah

[00:38:01] and it's basically so that people can have what might be quote unquote boring conversations or whatever

[00:38:07] but against a more interesting backdrop so then and then it gives a way to illustrate you know how

[00:38:14] relations are for instance in this in this scene they are the way that they're sitting who's

[00:38:20] sitting next to whom right right and just a power relative power yep right and who's talking to

[00:38:27] whom and what are they talking about yeah and then the conversation is concentrated right it's brought

[00:38:33] into really sharp relief because of this package that's around it this this event that we have to

[00:38:39] sit through or participate in yeah right super interesting I really liked to that while we have the

[00:38:47] the no theater happening here in this telling of a story of of Oceba's life

[00:38:53] mm-hmm we also have Toranaga and we can talk about this maybe a little bit when we get into

[00:38:59] talking about Toranaga more but how he uses the theater of politics and

[00:39:06] and and and actual performance as a as a leader at his level at the head of a clan

[00:39:15] to move and sway the population yeah I go back to the thought of when he comes off the ship

[00:39:23] now when he brings uh Anjen back to right to the town and he's got his little fan out and he sort

[00:39:29] fix it and he does his whole thing and he bows to them and then he blips out he's like out piece

[00:39:36] I gotta go get a hat so that you can even more exactly even more theatrical absolutely

[00:39:43] but he's he's well we could talk about uh a little bit more so there's just theater within theater here

[00:39:48] and I and I really find found that to be a rich subtext and structure to this overall episode yeah

[00:39:56] absolutely let's talk a little bit about uh lady Oceba uh Oceba no kata what are your what are your

[00:40:04] thoughts I mean I it sounds like that she's getting a bit more depth in the show versus the book

[00:40:12] well okay here we'll hear from some people about that in the feedback um and I like that because

[00:40:18] but she is kind of a fiper than yes I wondered last week oh could who side could she possibly be on

[00:40:24] you know a double agent and I think no I think her dislike or hatred of Tornaga's genuine

[00:40:34] that's it's pretty intense right so so it took me a second watch to really figure this out

[00:40:40] without going to any other uh sources any secondary sources other podcasts or discord or

[00:40:45] anything like that that Oceba is the daughter of Corota who was murdered by modico's father

[00:40:53] and that murder was arranged by Toranaga yeah and and in modico and Oceba or uh Ruri at that time

[00:41:03] were childhood friends and sort of surviving this this drama and and sort of deadly

[00:41:10] situation at the thing is that that's that's accurate right yeah I got that right okay so

[00:41:16] yeah there's a lot of a lot of trauma yeah Oceba is carrying here right complex web of trauma

[00:41:25] and she really does have a white hot anger at Toranaga a lot of hatred but it is there

[00:41:34] is it all hatred or is it like is it hurt do you mean yeah I don't

[00:41:41] they showed her I mean I guess is there a hurt that's directed toward I wonder if we're

[00:41:49] gonna find out she blames Toranaga for something having to do with mariko you know with their

[00:41:56] losing right because well the Toranaga plan within plans right right right what did he say

[00:42:04] to modico's father about getting her out of the situation yeah I see her marry her off to this

[00:42:12] apparently you know there's a lot of respect for modico's husband now as a samurai but it just

[00:42:18] seems that his family is not a big name not a name worthy of her family what her family's name

[00:42:24] used to be oh I didn't catch that okay so there so her family was yeah right because he's

[00:42:29] her family is at the center of power where he's he's out a little bit further interesting

[00:42:36] and then her father just trying to find a suitable bachelor of particular of standing with

[00:42:43] enough standing to get her out of the situation and maybe he you know maybe he had a crush on her

[00:42:50] from afar okay and it convinced her father you know he would protect her not let her kill herself

[00:42:56] which apparently is a big sticking point yeah we could let's talk about that later when we get

[00:43:01] to mariko and and putaro because there's some there's some stuff in there as well I thought

[00:43:11] Ohchiba herself and I thought that this was another really great use of the theater she's theatrical

[00:43:18] herself in her mannerisms and her sketch patterns and the way that she leads a conversation

[00:43:26] and dominates it from behind yeah it's you know we see later the women of the willow world learn

[00:43:36] their arts of presentation the way they pour the sake with the triple dip things like that this is her

[00:43:45] learning the art of presentation of power in her way you know learning how to yeah how to

[00:43:52] influence without because that is a thing that's still a thing for women today you know you have

[00:43:58] to find a way to have your voice heard without with trampling on egos as little as possible interesting

[00:44:08] yeah yeah for sure because if you're too strong then you get a labeled one way you if you're not

[00:44:15] strong enough you get labeled another way right and so you sort of can't win for trying so you've

[00:44:20] got to constantly maneuver this is part of that I guess the warfare right exactly that mariko's

[00:44:27] talking about is how to maneuver between all of these different forces and and imperatives

[00:44:33] and so yeah using and what is what is ohchiba's eightfold fence looks like I think it's

[00:44:40] the beautiful fence so which and I think it's interesting too that they use the mirror

[00:44:49] as a sort of reward or enticement for her becoming the consort to the tyco because she's you

[00:44:59] know this looking at herself kind of situation and this self reflection but at the same time I

[00:45:06] guess a mirror would have been a very rare a high quality mirror right would have been a very rare item

[00:45:12] at that time period definitely an expensive item yeah yeah but this idea that she's the self-reflective

[00:45:18] thing and and the and what she's having to do how she sees herself in these situations

[00:45:24] and maybe also showing that she is more this individualistic type that that black thorn was

[00:45:31] or was urging mariko someone to be interesting yeah yeah and then the the whole play within a play

[00:45:41] thing here this flashback which was just visually stunning with the play playing out and then

[00:45:49] and then getting the the flashback and when they when they cut the herbs and the tea and the eye

[00:45:56] and everything I was like well wait what show is this this is this is wild for this show I thought

[00:46:01] the way that they actually staged that flashback yeah yeah it's beautiful so she was drugged

[00:46:08] I guess is that's that's what I gathered from it yeah she was with the bitter herbs

[00:46:15] that's part of the flashback scene was the herbs being caught in the tea and then she says later

[00:46:21] to ishito at the end that you know that she was given bitter herbs to you know

[00:46:28] a maker maker more client I guess or I don't know if that is a fertility enhancement or what

[00:46:34] I would expect bitter herbs to be the opposite of a fertility enhancement right but maybe she was

[00:46:41] trying to because I think that they they definitely heavily implied in this that that the taiko is not

[00:46:51] the real father of the air oh really and so I'm wondering if you know this was a sort of

[00:47:00] abort abortive measure to make sure she had the right person's kid for whatever reason okay

[00:47:07] interesting interesting because yeah she does talk about the fact that that nobody could

[00:47:11] could produce this guy and air yes again and of course the women are blamed even though

[00:47:20] sometimes it's a him thing you know exactly from other side but but that would

[00:47:26] tear at the edifice of the taiko and and the virility of the male and the dominance of a male if

[00:47:32] you can't sigh or children it's oh it's got to be a woman's fault problem right you know it's

[00:47:37] it's not me because I'm a strong leader right right right exactly yeah what does

[00:47:45] did you find out anything about what no kata represents or how that the need works because

[00:47:51] they went from ruri to ochiba to ochiba no kata yeah so they talked about this on the official

[00:48:01] fx podcast okay and so they said that's ochiba that portion means falling falling leaves

[00:48:09] and no kata means like in a particular direction so but when you put it together or it would be

[00:48:16] like the lady who lives in the room of the falling leaves so it's just a because it's rude to call

[00:48:21] her ruri after she becomes this powerful woman and an adult I guess and so change status her

[00:48:28] social status changes right okay so yeah so it was common then to have a sort of euphemism to name

[00:48:34] someone like her so this returns have you no honor have you no honor for women well yeah I guess if

[00:48:42] you're not addressing them as their sort of given name and you know this this this sort of again

[00:48:47] a theatrical or a stage name absolutely it's a stage name yeah interesting okay very cool yeah I

[00:48:53] was like I remember in the scene you know you will be ochiba no kata okay what's okay yeah and I

[00:49:00] know we've gotten some guidance on on the way that you address people and you know son and

[00:49:07] samman these kinds of things but man it seems like it's even more because there's other people who are

[00:49:12] not given any sort of honorifics and other people and so understanding the lattice work of social

[00:49:20] hierarchy and social structure based on these linguistic cues and for black thorn to be able to

[00:49:25] kind of figure that out yeah and navigate in that situation that's a pretty incredible level of

[00:49:31] observation and quick adjustment right constantly quickly adjusting yourself to these situations

[00:49:39] and yeah which is why I think I think he was being a bit tactical with the whole prayer scene too

[00:49:46] okay how so say so maybe he was actually praying in Portuguese because you know he hears she's

[00:49:52] doing the Lord's Prayer and he wants to advertise the Protestant sides he's like you know we just talk

[00:49:57] directly to God because we're clear but look we're the same we're saying the same thing right

[00:50:05] right and then later on we'll we can talk about it when we talk about marica a little bit but

[00:50:09] there's a funny line in the when they're talking with toronaga about that um did you think at all

[00:50:17] if oceba is using herself in parts to entice ishido like if you eliminate you know if you if you

[00:50:28] triumph you could have me as well as part of the bargain I didn't necessarily pick that up but it

[00:50:33] wouldn't surprise me yeah I mean I yeah because I can imagine that obviously she wants to end up

[00:50:40] in power and right and if she do has to be she's the guy that protects her son of course yeah exactly

[00:50:47] and she needs a man to do that she needs a lord to do that but she needs yeah whoever is going to

[00:50:53] be the whoever's going to be the next show owner tyco or whatever it ends up being that it's someone

[00:51:02] who doesn't want to take her son out right right and and she can control manipulative what

[00:51:09] she says right but she say you're I forget the line and I think that's why she chose him

[00:51:14] okay because he's manipulatable yeah he's and toronaga you're never going to manipulate him no

[00:51:20] right and this is really a battle of toronaga and oceba ultimately the two big forces well you're

[00:51:27] what did she say you're just all play things that was such a cutting remark you just you

[00:51:34] your children compared to him and in in a way she's also saying me right because yeah she's the

[00:51:41] one control she's even in more control so yeah they're play things to her yeah yeah yeah oh but then

[00:51:50] what's her her sort of in line here yeah she forced feet to look at me so I could scratch

[00:51:56] it yeah that's what I interpreted to mean that she was she found someone else to be their father oh

[00:52:04] really okay all right I did not pick up on that at all I just was sort of left with the line that

[00:52:10] she's just sort of grabbed fate so and there's a lot of historical apparently I can't I kept

[00:52:19] thinking about what Nate was saying last time about his period and the burning of the Buddhist

[00:52:24] temples and in this we see the the corroda beheading the monks and you know that I can only

[00:52:33] imagine that there's a lot of historical parallels drawn from the Lidio Chiba or drawn from history

[00:52:40] and applied for Lidio Chiba yeah no there's definitely a historical parallel yeah cool all right

[00:52:47] let's talk about toronaga for a little bit crimson sky did he did hear a matsu float was this

[00:52:59] a plan to like throw crimson sky out there and then say no we're what we can't do that you guys

[00:53:04] got to figure something out and then when they're nowhere nothing else was left it was like the only

[00:53:10] natural choice is this part of toronaga's plans within plans or did he really not believe in

[00:53:16] that that crimson sky was the appropriate path forward I think that yeah I think that he's

[00:53:22] faking it as soon as he was using no I would never I was like a guarantee this episode and being like

[00:53:29] deploying crimson sky which is not quite what happened but yeah perfect check-off in sort of

[00:53:35] device yeah I mentioned it up at the beginning of the episode and we did it at the end of the

[00:53:38] episode yeah yeah I thought I thought it was a very tactical move by by him to shoot which then

[00:53:48] goes to the idea does he really want shogun or yeah well because I think I mean I think that he does

[00:53:54] and I think that he also when he asked Omi for his opinion there I think part of it is because

[00:54:02] he knew who's about to piss him off another way it's which we're going to but I think that he

[00:54:08] knew that Omi would push for this and he our Omi could argue this point so the toronaga didn't have

[00:54:15] to so toronaga is like oh it's not me but if you all insist interesting yeah yeah he is the

[00:54:21] least an al-gaib yeah I don't want shogun oh then he must be shogun yeah absolutely I just finished

[00:54:32] three-body problem on like same thing with the wall faceer like I don't want to be a wall faceer

[00:54:38] okay yeah sure thing pretty funny pretty funny yeah and even if he didn't want it I was thinking

[00:54:45] about this just by the fact that he's minuara and he's a clan head he's automatically

[00:54:57] going to be shogun the moment if he goes in and takes anybody out people are just gonna go oh

[00:55:02] you're shogun now right it's what we believe it's not what you believe it's but but we believe

[00:55:07] which is a great line by stillgar in in dune tune I don't care what you believe you know I believe

[00:55:11] right this is what I believe and it then it made me think about game of thrones which is you

[00:55:17] player you die and if you're in the game you can't not get out of the game you're in and that's

[00:55:24] it and you either played a win or you die like the mafia to right yeah exactly it's very very yeah

[00:55:31] same thing political structure yeah which was I thought was funny when we talk about regions later but

[00:55:37] like Edo was given an offer he could not refuse right exactly and he did do his face did not say I

[00:55:45] want to sit on your council his face is like oh she she is because Ocheba's here and she

[00:55:52] does yeah and they're saying join the council my honor can't wait oh yes yes definitely

[00:56:01] I don't think so good I just want to act yeah exactly yeah I just wanted to be a dillet on

[00:56:09] you know do some theater have some fun this will be the greatest role that he will have ever played

[00:56:14] so um so yeah tournoi well I guess we've kind of talked about it already just tournobs use

[00:56:21] of political theater being able to inspire the troops to do this whole meeting with his

[00:56:28] advisors and generals oh no I really don't want to be shook oh no don't don't don't make me

[00:56:33] be yeah oh crimson sky no that's not a very good idea you guys figure something else out you guys

[00:56:38] are smart you'll do it it's all theater mm-hmm it's all stage theater it's just in kind of the memorial

[00:56:45] to you know those who who die shall not die in vain yeah I wonder if they presented this no

[00:56:52] in the fact that nobles acted as they definitely put that they're side by side to make that

[00:56:58] suggestion that you know nobles learn as part of their role in the society they learn to act oh

[00:57:05] that's interesting that's a really good because you just because you're a good tactician

[00:57:12] mm-hmm doesn't make you a good leader of people right you need to be able to perform in a certain way

[00:57:19] exactly and then and people have to and I think that's interesting that goes back to this idea

[00:57:23] that I don't care what you believe inside of yourself mm-hmm I believe something I'm projecting my

[00:57:28] beliefs on you and so I need you to act your part yeah and even if you don't believe it in

[00:57:34] in in of yourself and I think maybe that's something that's wrong with Nagakado is that as a kid

[00:57:40] he's just wearing his emotions on the on his sleeve yeah he has no theater he has no eight

[00:57:46] fold fence he's just you know dad you should just you know go be show gun and and when are our

[00:57:53] family back he's he's got no no ability to put that and and I think maybe that's what's frustrating to

[00:57:58] our Naga is that Nagakado isn't learning those lessons right a mask himself mm-hmm yeah he's two

[00:58:06] he's two earnests he's two yeah to play in face I mean not in a he's like an attractive kid but I just

[00:58:13] mean to uh he wears his emotions too openly yeah yeah and he's two naïve he's not look he's

[00:58:19] and it's fine to be naive but learn the lessons like that's what his father's frustration is I would

[00:58:23] guess it's like you're not dude you're not learning the lessons I'm trying to teach you

[00:58:28] this is a dangerous world and you have to be I can't protect you you have to you got to step up so

[00:58:35] did you catch the burning pigeon during the fire so later we see Torinaga reading a secret note and

[00:58:46] then throwing it into the fire so was that pigeon I just wonder if that's all part of his

[00:58:55] I mean the pigeon spies and other pigeons yeah I mean there must be a pigeon master there

[00:59:02] had Inosaka who's sending messages back and he we obviously know there's someone in the village

[00:59:08] where they are now right so yeah it's I assume that they were showing us that perhaps a message

[00:59:17] didn't make it or yeah yeah yeah definitely I think that could be part of it I can't help but

[00:59:25] my little birds right yeah the Game of Thrones comps are like all over this thing it's crazy I don't

[00:59:31] want to do it but I can't help it we just have a song of ice and fire brains exactly it's it's coming

[00:59:38] war is coming the during the one of the flashbacks there was the scene of the beheading with the

[00:59:46] the monks which again maybe think of what Nate wrote in last week about the burning of

[00:59:50] castle and all that stuff so again probably a lot of crazy history that's folded into this

[00:59:55] which is incredible to think that clavelle did a bunch of research from his point of view but then

[01:00:01] the writers then took that and then then re researched everything and really made sure that the

[01:00:07] historical comps and inspirations were accurate and present that's an incredible amount of work yeah

[01:00:13] I mean I think clavelle he did like a lot of the research of who were the big players and

[01:00:19] created versions of them and it seems like what their show writers have especially done is added

[01:00:25] with the details of authenticity you know like well what would they have known about using firearms at

[01:00:30] the time what would have been what weapons would have women fought with I saw people

[01:00:37] there was someone who was mad that apparently in the book Mariko Sama only uses knives and but actually

[01:00:45] the the weapon that she uses in this show is the more accurate one that she would have actually

[01:00:51] used the naginata okay right that long that long spear which makes sense

[01:00:59] tactically is you'd want to keep your your opponent at bay whereas if you're outclassed by

[01:01:08] weight and muscle mass from a male samurai you don't want him anywhere near you physically

[01:01:15] why have to I have to shout out the Wheel of Time of course oh yeah what so Matt he ends up wielding

[01:01:23] we saw kind of like a prototype version of it in the second season of it but in in the books

[01:01:27] sorry minor spoiler he ends up wielding a weapon called the Ashundrai and it looks I think it was

[01:01:34] based on this what did I call it Nagi Kata um naginata sorry I think it's based on this naginata but anyway

[01:01:46] what one of the coolest parts of Matt's story is okay maybe that's too much of a spoiler but anyway

[01:01:52] they talk about the importance of why you would gain an advantage of fighting with a weapon like

[01:01:57] that and indeed it's you can keep people away you can fight multiple opponents at a time yeah

[01:02:04] right right and we see Mariko really excelling at using the naginata in this in one of the flashbacks

[01:02:13] yeah I got that's where again a little confusion crept in because at first I thought all is this

[01:02:19] the source of her and Achibas conflict but I know but Achibas was she was watching from

[01:02:27] headlines but then it couldn't read what was on her face what did she think about

[01:02:32] she's registering that this is a deadly woman but what did she was she proud of her

[01:02:37] did that make her afraid of her did that yeah yeah absolutely there was no there was no

[01:02:44] her eightfold fence was up yeah totally was up yeah does she was she jealous yeah I can think

[01:02:50] that this was gonna be a source of an embarrassing scene for Achibas but no it was yeah we don't have

[01:02:55] anything maybe we'll see because that's the kind of show that this is they drop something like

[01:03:01] this and then it plays off and yeah for sure anyway going back to the beheadings

[01:03:08] and that flashback it was I didn't realize on first and then I saw it later that it was Torinaga

[01:03:14] who was keeping I I teach it back from yeah being in that moment and then he tells

[01:03:20] go go go to bed that was Torinaga and Torinaga is in a number of the flashback scenes we see him

[01:03:27] there so that just goes into the whole plans within plans was he you know what has he been spinning

[01:03:34] ever since and then we can see well you know uh Ochiba is Ochiba is not happy with him for some

[01:03:42] of those plannings right she's mad at him for being a player and a skimmer never mind killing his

[01:03:48] father right mm-hmm so did last thought on Torinaga did he keep the beggar swords

[01:03:59] well wait what what swords did he give to black hope Thorne the sicker's wonder did he give them back

[01:04:05] or I assumed new ones they didn't look the same I didn't feel like they did yeah yeah yeah

[01:04:13] yeah they looked they looked different so I was like oh I mean I guess it would be an insult to give

[01:04:17] them back but right right Thorne also would be like okay yeah he's like whatever let's talk about

[01:04:26] Monaco a little bit uh did she pass Torinaga's test that was really she's like I want you to go

[01:04:34] he was I want you to go to the T house with him listen in in case he pillows oh it's like

[01:04:39] I am man like that's cool I don't know that it was a test I feel like I think he genuinely was like

[01:04:46] here's your chance just go for it you know I think he's like everybody was trying to kind of push

[01:04:52] them together yeah because if he wants to keep he knows if he wants to keep black Thorne here with him

[01:04:59] he needs to fan the flames of his passion for Monaco Sama but then that puts on Jinson and

[01:05:07] Buntaro's on in conflict with each other Sama sorry Sama Sama yeah I mean I feel like the

[01:05:16] his his he now has shifted to thinking that black Thorne's more more valuable to him

[01:05:26] he keeps failing up he keeps like damn dude yeah every time you try you end up getting

[01:05:33] an advancement or a promotion I read it the different way though I read it as I can't

[01:05:40] handle the dissension Buntaro is not going to divorce you there's an obvious chemistry between

[01:05:49] you and and on Jen you have a a purpose greater than you understand I need you to be able to

[01:06:03] deal in this situation without getting your emotions all messed up so I kind of read it as a

[01:06:09] as a test and that she or or maybe not a pass fail test but a crisis in the moment more you know

[01:06:18] kind of a Kobayashi Maru gom Jabara kind of thing like how are you going to respond

[01:06:24] and then when I see you coming out of that I'll know how to work with you on this but I think

[01:06:29] we didn't see him checking up on it in any way in that episode yeah spies everywhere he's got

[01:06:35] yeah but we didn't see like we didn't see him getting word of how it went so true I don't know

[01:06:41] I just think that he wanted that for them because it would serve his purposes to make Black

[01:06:47] Thorn happier but also because he's he has he seems like he has some fatherly feelings word

[01:06:54] Mariko and sure yeah I think he feels maybe he feels a bit of guilt that he probably helps select

[01:07:00] her husband right right interesting okay I like the ambiguity I don't know that I'm I'm resolved

[01:07:06] to your point of view but I like some of the things that you're saying so I guess we'll have to see

[01:07:11] yeah and I guess we'll have to see um yeah her eightfold fence was certainly I don't know

[01:07:18] 1632 fold fence he was all over this year she's a well-being that fence yeah big time the um

[01:07:29] it seemed to even more on on the Black Thorn Mariko front it seemed like everybody was kind of

[01:07:34] trying to get them together you know Kiku was like oh it's dark here if you want me coming with us you

[01:07:40] know even the madam was like even the madam but even when they were negotiating going to the uh

[01:07:46] going to the brothel the the sorry the tea house um the the madam was already like the way she

[01:07:54] kind of sold it to Mariko was she was she said you know this is a place where it's very private

[01:08:00] and no one will know anything and that's what Mariko's like kind of almost blushing and like okay

[01:08:07] right now we get the one the one proper reaction from Fuji this episode where she's

[01:08:12] like lifting the tea she's literally sipping some tea sipping some tea you've been known to be what

[01:08:19] what did um she say it's you've been known to never separate from the on-gen or

[01:08:24] yeah say everything everywhere together yeah absolutely uh what was the deal with the tea cups they

[01:08:30] kept clipping in on those scenes of them putting them down in different positions and stuff

[01:08:36] there is definitely something to that one part of it is I know and I was asking about this in the

[01:08:40] discord and okay we're verifying that this is the case that uh it is very important in Japanese

[01:08:45] culture that you hand and take things with two with two hands okay and the one thing that I noticed

[01:08:51] is that and I don't know how this relates to this whole tea situation but I noticed that um

[01:08:57] Mariko and Fuji were both handling their tea cup with two hands and the madam was handling hers

[01:09:03] with one oh shit okay but I don't know if that means anything in this context but they did keep like

[01:09:09] and they would punctuate their point by almost like putting the tea on

[01:09:15] and then I've noticed the positioning of the lacquer like of the design turning it

[01:09:20] a one way at one point it was turned away and one point it was it was more visible so I don't know

[01:09:25] if that was yes some sort of signaling like uh yeah yeah we're also blushing I don't believe what you're

[01:09:30] saying or oh yeah well the right-hand negotiation here the first time the madam put it down was

[01:09:36] right after she she complimented the ceramics and she was like oh well we lost our best stuff in

[01:09:42] the earthquake so I'm ashamed to present this to you which I thought I could take as a real line

[01:09:48] yeah because like oh you know if you're being called if you're complimenting to be nice but you

[01:09:55] really know that is the second-rate stuff then oh well you know I would have given you the good

[01:10:01] stuff but I got busted so like it's fair but then at the same time it comes off as a back-handed

[01:10:06] yeah just telling this is not the best we have yeah and I'm and we're not bringing the best out for

[01:10:11] you you know regardless what oh the earthquake oh yes we lost lots of things in the earthquake

[01:10:16] yeah that was that was an awesome scene that old scene um and I was wondering too about this question of

[01:10:29] Mariko's positioning and her agency relative to herself so she's been living with the shame

[01:10:40] of her father's treachery quote unquote treachery and she's been asking for her her husband to allow

[01:10:48] her to commit septu he denied he continually denies it which seems to only aggravate their whole

[01:10:56] dynamic together now but does he will you know wittingly or unwittingly he's doing her father's

[01:11:06] bidding which is to keep her alive and safe away from this but he has to live with the shame

[01:11:11] of her family's actions right and then when she learns that her she has a greater fate or a

[01:11:21] greater service to duty a greater purpose um how is that going to change her going forward

[01:11:27] and does that give her a pathway out so that she's not living with this heavy shame anymore

[01:11:33] right hopefully but of course I mean it still have to remember blackthorn so they've apparently

[01:11:41] changed things in this uh versus the book to give her less culpability in terms of so she's not

[01:11:48] directly cheating on her husband when she knows he's alive right right but blackthorn still is

[01:11:54] just blatantly cheating on his family back in and absolutely and I'm certain her London doesn't

[01:12:00] matter yeah I can't remember yeah which I had to laugh when Bartaro's uh Bartaro's getting ripped

[01:12:09] by Toranaga he's kidding absolutely like that's a bad performance evaluation right there you know

[01:12:17] you've you've disrupted the heart of my hot tomato like you're messing with my auto dude stop it

[01:12:24] and and if you can't control yourself if she's driving you crazy then divorce her

[01:12:29] right it's fine you know and she's still in my service my client I'll make sure that she's

[01:12:34] sorted so he gets ripped and then he stands up and he turns around and who's in front of him

[01:12:40] blackthorn to marico and he's like oh damn I just feel like Bento is gonna snap soon

[01:12:48] you think so I mean it seems like they're winding him up because they're winding on me up too

[01:12:56] yeah yeah I mean I they are ripening a potential alliance between them I guess yeah yeah

[01:13:03] I mean I think oh me yeah because oh me was just last at the end of last episode he was on top

[01:13:09] he was feeling great about things and then now I got a canon ridge of it yeah yeah right now I

[01:13:14] get the canon ridge of it taken away from me yeah my and uh my my uh my real love is is

[01:13:22] pillowing with the barbarian right yeah so um it won't and this is this whole idea of you know

[01:13:31] duty is what endures and service to a greater purpose and we talked about this before with

[01:13:36] blackthorn and marico when they had that conversation when they we had the first earthquake tremor

[01:13:44] thing and he's like but you're your own you know you're you're your person and I'm free and I can

[01:13:51] go off in the world and then she says I pity you when this whole idea of duty and service um and

[01:13:57] her duty to her father her duty to tornaga her duty to her husband she's get a son for gosh

[01:14:03] takes we haven't even seen the poor kid like you know where's he at so she's really she's not free

[01:14:09] in a lot of ways where you know blackthorn kind of sees himself as free but he's not free because

[01:14:15] he's a prisoner to right yeah he can't he can't take a ship and go yeah um so blackthorn not

[01:14:24] a lot to talk about uh this episode any thoughts that you have no I mean yeah this this was the women's

[01:14:32] episode and it's and tornaga always tornaga it's episode but um but yeah I mean I think we're

[01:14:40] starting to see he's starting to understand the rules of this world but then equally be baffled

[01:14:47] by them um but I think yeah we're building to we're building to a point where he becomes some part

[01:14:57] a part of him after this experience will always carry what he's learning from the Japanese culture

[01:15:03] and and we're seeing him really soak in all of the nuances and what the advantages and disadvantages

[01:15:09] are yeah he's internalizing a lot I noticed in this episode whenever he would uh give more than a

[01:15:17] head nod bow and not fully cow-tow right which I think is a Chinese word but anyway going down on

[01:15:23] your knees and actually to genuinely fukting fully uh when he's on the in their intermediate bow

[01:15:29] he's putting his hands very flat and straight on the upper parts of his thighs and doing the

[01:15:34] precise movement so he's really adapting physically to the formalities right picking up on these little

[01:15:41] little details right and he's walking less clumpishly clumpishly even though there's a great scene

[01:15:49] when he comes home from work a hard day at work one day and he's got he puts his swords on the

[01:15:53] little rack and he's just looking very tired and shlubbish and I was like oh god I can totally relate

[01:15:58] walking the goal put your keys in the dish your keys you want to come home hired I just want to take

[01:16:04] my sandals off and yeah maybe yeah I totally would get totally got that yeah and I have to give

[01:16:12] props to Cosmo Jarvis' performance here the sort of oafish puppy dog musty there like I've been at

[01:16:18] the at the the T house all night I'm a little bit tired to when he's sounding off about naval matters

[01:16:25] maybe kind of sharp and I like I know exactly what I'm doing here in in this realm everywhere else

[01:16:30] I'm a complete like I have no bearing right what I'm supposed to be doing man that's basically why

[01:16:36] he's been kept around right and so yeah but the just that Jarvis is able to pull that level of

[01:16:42] performance off I really hadn't made doubts about him before the season started he's yeah I'm

[01:16:48] I'm really impressed by what he's been able to pull together

[01:16:53] let's talk about Kiku really quick a woman cannot look away when another suffers yeah and she

[01:17:00] was definitely talking about the very clear longing between Marika so yeah well yeah that's

[01:17:07] interesting because I was I was taking it more to of her overall suffering as well just her

[01:17:12] family shame and her well yeah probably I think you're right about the black everyone knows about

[01:17:17] the beating too and I think that's kind of why she's on her face yeah she's kind of like you know

[01:17:22] you can just like be in the dark and nobody knows what happens and yeah yeah totally so was this

[01:17:30] scene just a mind-boggling it was an amazing scene yeah yeah no that I posted on Twitter immediately

[01:17:39] about what you mentioned with the camera positioning where they they swivel it around so that as

[01:17:44] you said yeah Mariko eclipses Kiku and and then you see at some point in the translation

[01:17:52] Mariko stops saying she and start saying I oh why didn't even pick up on that oh so she

[01:18:01] switches her prone the pronouns sweet oh I might have to go back and watch that I missed that

[01:18:07] I was just taken by the whole idea that from now onwards from the end of the line from that scene

[01:18:13] where they were talking on the on the cliff side where she's like we're not gonna talk anymore

[01:18:19] the only way we're gonna talk is other though from the lips of other people I wasn't raptured by

[01:18:23] by that idea and then so this I have you know Kiku talking through her yeah her secret hearts right

[01:18:29] like yeah but then it was kind of funny at the end afterwards so presumably like you know

[01:18:35] Mariko didn't want to join for the pillowing so um so I guess she's home already right right and

[01:18:42] then when they come out afterwards is that kind of awkwardness and Kiku kind of rubs it in a little

[01:18:47] bit she's like oh I tell him I cannot wait until I'll be thinking about him every day or something

[01:18:53] and Mariko just like she says thank you where I forget which we didn't talk about before was this

[01:19:01] whole idea of how they've been playing Mariko's translations all season long yeah and then the like

[01:19:09] the the audience before Toronaga which is one of my favorite moments which is uh oh I'm sorry

[01:19:14] were you going to translate yeah and the the hole back and forth and then what she's and then when

[01:19:20] she gets called on it at certain times she snaps back and then starts doing the precise translation

[01:19:26] as opposed to the he says thank you yeah or he is impressed by your yeah her summations

[01:19:34] and bending of it always be like I mean because it I've been in situations where I've you know

[01:19:40] employed a translator and you hear like this whole long thing and then they're like he's very

[01:19:45] appreciative of you and the scene and the the fact that I thought it was so this is kind of where

[01:19:55] I got into the the test thing because if Toronaga said you got to be there to listen in case he talks

[01:20:02] while pillowing but she bails and goes back to the village so everybody knows now that she didn't

[01:20:09] pillow with him because everybody's seeing them together right they all see yeah yeah the chemistry

[01:20:14] between Mariko and Blackthorn but hey she's already back at the village and then

[01:20:20] everybody in the village is watching Blackthorn come back from the the wall shame yeah exactly

[01:20:27] but it's not a walk of shame though because it's a normalized part of society right no I know

[01:20:31] what it is sort of I mean I guess everyone keeps saying you know what happens in the will a world stays

[01:20:39] in the will a world but and that's also why I feel like Toronaga he created that excuse like well

[01:20:46] that he needs a translator and I need you there to like spy in case he talks while he's pillowing

[01:20:53] I don't know about I don't give up state secrets when I'm pillowing

[01:20:56] yeah that's kind of weird to me it seems like a very very easy excuse for her to be there

[01:21:03] they're interesting okay and then she kind of makes a statement by saying like no I'm not going

[01:21:09] to stay even a even though Toronaga asked me to never to say exactly yeah exactly oh good stuff

[01:21:16] such good writing such such confident writing they're really yeah it's really really good stuff

[01:21:24] let's wrap it up here with the regents counsel and the Jesuits and then we can talk about our

[01:21:29] favorite moments um Sugiyama is now well I thought you know his coughing I thought he would you

[01:21:38] know that you know tuberculosis or you know some other disease but no he got straight up he

[01:21:43] straight up ran and then got killed by bandits on the road right boy like a bat Osaka's got a real

[01:21:49] bandit problem yeah very convenient bandit problem yeah it's very convenient problem so now we're

[01:21:56] down to four again so this is the mastery of Toronaga is he just keeps the situation pressurized

[01:22:03] he doesn't know necessarily all that's going to happen but as long as he's got pressure on

[01:22:10] his enemies or even his allies he can take advantage of their of circumstances as circumstances

[01:22:17] resolve the infighting yeah yeah exactly and I totally thought that Ashido from a previous episode

[01:22:26] when he is when Jozen when his his guy got you know shot up by the cannons by Nagarados cannons

[01:22:36] I thought oh he's gonna lash out at um Toronaga out of anger but no Oceba's got him

[01:22:44] right tightly controlled now so you know how much and how much is he he stuck right he can't

[01:22:54] you know he can't nope out he can't leave right but the same time how much he we know he's

[01:23:00] he doesn't like being a bureaucrat so what does he want does he does he want to be

[01:23:06] tyco does he want to does he want lady Oceba does he want I don't understand what his motivations are

[01:23:12] I mean if he gets if he gets all of that wrapped up together in one bow then yeah for him I mean

[01:23:20] I can understand why that would be a situation he would want sure and she even says you know

[01:23:26] it's your shadow that we'll be talking about right right and that's very smart of her because

[01:23:31] that's the one dangerous thing is she doesn't want him to think that she'll overshadow him

[01:23:37] even though she totally would yes yeah she's in control yeah see we talked about Laredito

[01:23:43] and the offer he couldn't refuse that was great the Jesuit mission what is it that

[01:23:52] um Delacroh hates so much about the minuara clan I mean it's just that so I looked it up in the

[01:24:02] minuara clan is the real life um so they're in the real life that would be the minuamoto clan

[01:24:09] okay and uh the minuara as a fictional is a fictional yeah they changed all the names

[01:24:14] uh got it so that they can play with the histories but yeah in the in the real world the minuamoto

[01:24:20] minuamoto clan was the first they produced the first shogun in the 12th century so it was 500

[01:24:25] years before this but they remain the most powerful family in Japan throughout most of the 19th

[01:24:31] centuries so for centuries after this so basically just by claiming association with that clan

[01:24:38] it gives tornaga a solid claim on you know on being in control and would make him shogun

[01:24:45] okay so it's just a it's a it's a noble line that has resources yeah it's just it yeah it's basically

[01:24:52] like um that's trying to give an European analogy but I always I was gonna say a Kennedy but then

[01:24:57] that seems a little too I don't think I think the current Kennedy is gonna be anywhere yeah sure

[01:25:05] it's swarrow away from that uh yeah I get to be like being you know a hapsburg back in mid-eastern

[01:25:12] or in right yeah yeah right right um it's and I was trying to read a little bit too about the

[01:25:22] title of shogun and god that even confused me even more because there's the emperor and the

[01:25:28] shogun and the shogu it's like I kind of was analogizing it in my head while I was reading some

[01:25:33] of this stuff was like in some countries you might have a president and then you have a prime

[01:25:38] minister or you or in England we have a read you know a king or a queen and then a prime minister

[01:25:45] so there's a question why is the president and prime minister him right I was thinking hungry

[01:25:49] I think salakia has a similar thing where there's this elected no not even elected there's just

[01:25:54] this person who's who doesn't have acts their head of state yeah yes but it's the the

[01:26:01] and here in another lens we have a king whose head of state and a prime minister who runs affairs

[01:26:06] so the US is actually pretty unique unique and not separating the head of state function from the

[01:26:12] prime like sort of it's true yeah that's true that's interesting and we but then and we try to make

[01:26:18] sure that our president is not a king although the the the the desire for the shiny ring my precious

[01:26:25] yes human human form is corruptible to power and we'll bend and tweak our our structures to try

[01:26:34] to create power so it's interesting that shogun only a certain cl only certain clans can

[01:26:41] lay title to the kind of a noble title seems yeah yeah but it's the same function as a taiko

[01:26:48] so yeah that's my understanding but please anyone correct us if we are understanding exactly

[01:26:56] and then I was trying to wonder why ohchiba hates the Jesuit so much and is it just because

[01:27:01] they're outsiders and she sees them for manip- as manipulators or yeah I think because they again

[01:27:07] it's about the wrestling for power and then they could wrestle power away from her and yeah

[01:27:15] so circling back around it's interesting because then when black torrents talking to Toronaga

[01:27:21] and he's like the Portuguese are not your friends and Toronaga is like no they're a friendly nation

[01:27:26] like what is your what's your beef here he knows all of that he sees all of the power and the money

[01:27:32] flowing through the Catholic regions and everything he's got a fool in that regard

[01:27:37] there too powerful a faction for him to alienate them just to please one he need to moto

[01:27:43] right and he needs them because they're the intermediaries no matter for good or for ill between China

[01:27:50] and Japan and right so that whole triangle trade so far I was reading to some more

[01:28:00] even reading when I was reading about the shiroji mats and stuff how much cultural exchange went on

[01:28:05] between China and Japan and how how much there is in deep deep cultural roots there there are

[01:28:13] connectivity to the two of course yeah so but at this time period they're they're like we're not

[01:28:18] friends we're friend of ease and we have the Portuguese doing that I think yeah many years of

[01:28:23] friendship yeah many many centuries yeah yeah so but then that that goes back to I just just quickly

[01:28:33] to blackthorn and modicose for as much as they have feelings for each other there's also this

[01:28:41] tension between them between the cast the Catholic and the Protestant parts of their characters

[01:28:47] and she she says like why are you talking bad about the Portuguese and he's like girl please

[01:28:53] like you know there's my enemies yeah Catholics in the Portuguese and she's like no that's my

[01:28:59] I'm you know that's my face don't talk about my face like that yeah so yeah exactly

[01:29:06] well let's talk quickly about some of our favorite moments what have you what have you got on

[01:29:10] on deck um well since we already talked about the Fuji reaction shot I'll say the moments

[01:29:16] more Fuji reactions yeah we need for more of those although that was good enough for an entire

[01:29:21] episode it was it was it really was I immediately paused and took a picture of my screen

[01:29:26] excellent but another kind of reaction shot is a marico with the when she's doing the practice

[01:29:35] fighting the flashback with the naguinauta she gets this smile on her face and it's and this is where

[01:29:42] you really see anasawais interacting coming out you know just the the layers of realism that

[01:29:48] this is a smile of a younger woman not a woman who's fully forms her eightfold fence

[01:29:53] right but she knows she's not supposed to show that she's enjoying being good at this thing

[01:29:59] but she also can't help it she's like I am good I'll get you

[01:30:06] very cool yeah she's I almost thinking back now about what this episode did there so much

[01:30:14] that went on in this episode it was absolutely packed yeah yeah yeah it's in the surface it seems like

[01:30:20] quiet or episode in a way because it's more about like these conversations but there's so much

[01:30:25] so many reveals yeah absolutely what else you got yeah I also loved the hand squeeze between I

[01:30:32] will be thinking for the rest of this series about the hand squeeze that Ochiwa gave Marico at the

[01:30:39] moment right before she's leaving when she's reassuring her because that shows that even it wasn't

[01:30:44] just child children playing in the bamboo forest together it was you know even when they grew to be

[01:30:50] young women until the very last moment when they were separated there was real warmth and an affection

[01:30:55] between them and I have to wonder if that will come to play later that shared affection from before

[01:31:03] and also there are some people who are like was it just a hand squeeze and I'm like you know

[01:31:08] doesn't matter yeah could be pillow friends to put it in the time speak yeah

[01:31:17] the the scene of them sleeping back-to-back I thought that was a super touching scene yeah and

[01:31:24] it's not on my favorites but it just makes me think of that yeah because when you had hand squeeze

[01:31:30] in the notes here I was thinking you were talking about black thorn sort of touching her hand as

[01:31:37] she's leaving the tea oh right yeah the hand brush yeah that's true yeah the hand brush but I

[01:31:43] completely forgot about the squeeze that's a really good point these small gestures like when he

[01:31:46] touched he brushes her hand as she's leaving it's just like the smallest gesture but we as an

[01:31:51] audience know that means you know I wish this was you yeah right yeah and she's like nope I mean

[01:31:57] I'm I mean my 128-fold fence dude I'm keep folding right we're gonna get to a singularity here

[01:32:07] we're gonna have some sort of so fun anyway oh sorry that's a different product IP property

[01:32:17] yeah go ahead just yeah overall just it was that brothel scene was like maybe the sexiest

[01:32:24] non-sex scene I've ever seen right yeah yeah the fire in that it was it was wild all right I've

[01:32:31] got I already mentioned it before I'm sorry were you going to translate the sass yeah completely

[01:32:39] and then there's the scene where and they're they are they have this couple dynamic

[01:32:45] and she you know when they're at the tea house and she's like yeah don't make a scene okay that's

[01:32:50] how we get through this like dude you know I can just imagine partners somewhere out you know one

[01:32:57] partner chiding another like can we just not can you just not do your thing please we're in public

[01:33:01] can we just have quiet night you know or you're you're not you know doing one of your you know making

[01:33:06] a scene about something I thought it was very very touching I know I by the way about the

[01:33:12] just something I was thinking about that scene was she told him how to say you look very beautiful

[01:33:17] yes and I kept waiting in that scene for him to say it and he didn't but I'm wondering if it's

[01:33:21] gonna come back later and he's gonna say a tomorrow oh nice one I like that like he picked he like

[01:33:27] linguistically picked it nice yeah just just tucked that away yeah I'm my last one is the

[01:33:33] Ochoiba flashback during the play the I loved the thing when ito is saying Ochoiba oh

[01:33:41] yeah you know and it was sort of this sonic dissonant you sort of thing then it's putting her

[01:33:49] it's very trans inducing and then she goes into almost a I'm just thinking of lots of flashbacks

[01:33:57] from lots of different from then 84 dune to Lord of the Rings whenever we see the eye you know

[01:34:03] when Frodo puts on the ring we see a flash of the eye and this kind of stuff where this flashback

[01:34:09] there's a there's an eye I've tried to think of all that I didn't know them all down

[01:34:14] there's some sort of wheel that's cutting herbs and a number of things and it was so

[01:34:21] out of style for this show not saying that they're not using flashbacks and using flashbacks well

[01:34:30] but the music the sound effects the fast cut flashback wrapped around the no theater thing

[01:34:42] and we already had a flashback before when she was sort of braiding her son's hair

[01:34:47] but then so they are sort of primed us for that language and then this one is much more compressed

[01:34:52] and intense that then plays out later in her conversations with Ishiido about you know I was I was

[01:35:00] drugged in the what I had to go through to to produce a child that I just felt that this flashback

[01:35:09] was such a singularity of gravity of density in in this plot that I thought it was really

[01:35:17] effectively well used and it's not it's not a oh it's my favorite because it made me laugh it

[01:35:23] it was like wow that was a really powerful device and expertly used in the in the construction

[01:35:29] of the totality of the plot yeah so I'm out of breath there sorry I get a little hyperfixated on it

[01:35:38] because it was so good let's take a quick break and then when we get back we'll do a little bit

[01:35:44] of feedback and then we'll wrap up the show for today okay

[01:35:58] and we're back all right let's consider a little bit of feedback first up we've got a voicemail from

[01:36:07] Michael aka dark of ninjas hey guys this one gives some thoughts on recent episodes show again

[01:36:12] just noticing a parallel between this episode the scene with america blackboard going to the brothel

[01:36:17] to a scene from play trot i tried 49 another movie by the new villain who just recently put out

[01:36:23] dude two there's a scene in that movie where k the replicate from that movie his partner that he

[01:36:29] has which is a hologram named joy she can't of course was it touch him so she ends up hiring a lady

[01:36:37] in waiting to do the work with him basically but let's not mirror her own image on top of

[01:36:45] her so they can have a physical intimate moment because she can't do that within the situation

[01:36:50] is hologram it kind of feels like that the late that kiko kind of did that for americo here by saying hey

[01:36:57] translate what I'm about to say about the about where we are kind of felt like I'm seeing these words

[01:37:04] you have a permission to translate them and kind of say what you want to say in some ways even

[01:37:09] and it definitely looks like black thorn took that type of meaning from it because kiko purposely

[01:37:16] placed herself by americo where all that blackboard could see in that moment was just americo

[01:37:23] basically all the words coming from her not making it feel like it was coming from kiko at all

[01:37:30] I think it was interesting to see that kiko could honestly see that type of dynamic was there and how

[01:37:35] to kind of help facilitate it even if americo wasn't a hard to trick you wanted in that moment

[01:37:41] I just find it interesting that parallel between that and just one to see if you guys caught up

[01:37:47] on that parallel between those and just I very much feel like that was a scene of americo one to

[01:37:52] say these things and feels these things in some ways but doesn't know how to say that was being

[01:37:59] married and being how she is at this point in the story want to throw that out there have a go on

[01:38:03] yeah i mean we have we talked a lot about this scene but I think that that's a really good analogy

[01:38:09] with the new blade runner movie and that scene there yeah it's a good comp for sure

[01:38:16] I had forgotten about that blade runner 2049 is not one of my favorite movies but I did

[01:38:22] no neither actually beautiful but yeah yeah exactly but I think it's a great comp that this idea that

[01:38:32] these two star cross lovers have to find some other way to try to share a moment with each

[01:38:37] other it's very cool yeah and I think that the scene is expertly filmed and the whole idea

[01:38:45] of the eclipse of the voicing it's absolutely I think one of the highlight one of the standout

[01:38:53] moments of this series so far yeah definitely from a production and an emotional perspective yeah

[01:39:00] for some reason i'm totally stuck now on the body Tyler Sean total eclipse of the heart maybe

[01:39:04] all the dropping clips of the marco maybe i'll drop a clip in in post production here and just

[01:39:10] get the earworm just to hook everybody on that earworm all right what uh what else do we have you

[01:39:16] collected up some we didn't get any emails this week but i think you collected up some goodies

[01:39:20] from the discord yeah again if you want to send in an email show gun at the lorehounds.com

[01:39:27] or you can go to the discord and we'll we'll try to harvest some stuff as well oh and of course

[01:39:31] you've got the um website and you can use the contact form or like michael did record us a voice

[01:39:38] mail and we can add it right into the recording go ahead uh yeah well Nate dropped another history

[01:39:45] bomb on the discord for us okay he says so so much to process here one change that may seem small

[01:39:52] but is so big from a historical standpoint it took me until about halfway through the show to

[01:39:56] realize that they were portraying oceba as a corota the guy in charge before the tyco's daughter

[01:40:03] i'm pretty sure that wasn't the case in the book um that like in history she was actually his niece

[01:40:09] making her his daughter who then married the tyco my lord uh that then setting up the oceba

[01:40:17] marco frenemy situation wow total change from the book and history definitely makes the stakes higher

[01:40:24] and suggesting that marico is there to quote unquote finish the job of her father so to speak holy crap

[01:40:31] yeah that's on that part very good yeah i it's again i just uh i'm gonna be a broken record here and

[01:40:38] and just say that these writers and the showrunners really took the time it sounds like this production

[01:40:46] hap started pre-covid and then they worked through covid and there was i think there was even

[01:40:52] even filming during covid because japan in japan maybe the filming well they were filming a lot

[01:40:57] in mcouver again and it too so i'm not sure exactly how that's all going down i guess it's small scenes

[01:41:03] with just a few characters that i'm sure yeah the point i'm driving at is that a confident set of show

[01:41:13] runners with uh really good writers room that was backed up and uh uh supported by an awesome

[01:41:24] research team and a whole lot of people with primary knowledge uh who got to participate and share

[01:41:31] and shape the story when we let our creators create we get good pro we get we can get good product right

[01:41:40] and uh i know that it not every production has the resources at the time and you know sometimes

[01:41:47] we let creators create and it's it doesn't work out well but i just can't shake the feeling that

[01:41:55] people who've proven and and uh uh their their skills and their abilities and then did the work

[01:42:03] to culturally recent or the show change the gaze invert and subvert the gaze

[01:42:09] and play with the tropes but then had access to this level of research man these

[01:42:15] this is just an incredible product of a show yeah yeah so we got some more info from Nate on the

[01:42:23] real history behind this okay so he says i talked about the historical backstory of marco's father

[01:42:30] the historical ketchi michu he day last week this week they threw me for a loop the whole

[01:42:36] ocean by marco is the whole ocean by marco childhood friendship is a twist i did not expect from

[01:42:44] the book or history it's a very interesting switch that adds to a lot to the story one thing

[01:42:48] that stands out is how they frame ketchi and torenaga as friends and possibly co conspirators which then

[01:42:55] animates ochi bus hatred of torenaga someone asked me on blue sky if there was any historical evidence

[01:43:01] for tokegawa yasu torenaga which is the historical counterpart of torenaga being involved in the

[01:43:07] assassination of oda nabunaga which was the historical counterpart for ochi bus father right and

[01:43:15] he says the short answer is no and it's highly unlikely ketchi and tokegawa were not friends in

[01:43:22] real life tokegawa yasu at the time the attack on oda happened was traveling far from his home

[01:43:29] territory and had to cross through the area controlled by a ketchi's troops the legend goes

[01:43:35] that he was snuck through a ketchi lines by the remnants of the ninja of iga actually covered

[01:43:41] in this lecture today so yeah so it's unlikely that yasu was at all involved in the plot to kill

[01:43:51] odu no no bonaga the shows corrode that said there's a conspiracy theory that about literally

[01:43:57] everyone being involved there's one that says hideyoshi the taiko tricked a ketchi into doing it there's

[01:44:04] one that says the imperial court pressured a ketchi none of them ring true historically to me

[01:44:10] okay thoughts i'm just thinking about ares the second you know i know no bonaga had access or

[01:44:18] grota access wildfire what he would have done in the game oh yeah oh boy and that they don't have

[01:44:26] dragons yeah exactly and i just it's i think it's fascinating this idea of

[01:44:34] break you know that he broke his oath ketchi ketchi to uh uh broke his oath for the good of the realm

[01:44:44] but yet is seen as an oath breaker and as a person who's you know shamed and and untrusted

[01:44:51] and would what happened in the aftermath of that would that have uh if they had been quote-unquote

[01:45:00] successful in some way that the victor the victors would have told a different story and

[01:45:07] and mariko's family wouldn't have been shamed did something go wrong so that they didn't come out

[01:45:13] on top in some way like i'm just thinking of that that one little turn of history could have

[01:45:21] completely changed the the way we perceive the outcome of all of this right exactly so yeah

[01:45:28] yeah you're under good i do wonder uh Nate if the um historical counterpart of mariko's family was

[01:45:37] shamed in some way mm-hmm yeah yeah how that how that played out mm-hmm uh there's a quote which i

[01:45:46] cannot quite remember and i know i've tried to look it up before but there's a game designer a

[01:45:50] guy named robin d laws who's who's done a bunch of work on the gum shoe system and cthulhu stuff and

[01:45:55] whatnot and you know one of the this piece of advice that he gives to aspiring um tabletop uh roleplay

[01:46:04] game designers is like don't don't look to the star you know don't don't try to make up crazy

[01:46:10] science fiction stuff just go back to human history mm-hmm because all of this stuff that you want all

[01:46:15] the drama is there yeah it's embedded in our history and it just sounds like the singoku period

[01:46:21] and the eto period and and just the history of japan is just like wow it's packed with uh with drama

[01:46:28] yeah and interesting stuff and you just said that you finished blue eyed samurai if i remember right

[01:46:33] no i know i haven't it was john it was john who had you have it yet yeah that this falls right after

[01:46:39] it and people are talking about that isn't it yeah i definitely want to i definitely want to watch

[01:46:43] that uh next yeah what um yeah go ahead i was gonna ask you something else but no ask go ahead

[01:46:49] oh yeah i was gonna say there was some i i i have not been on the discord much recently just because

[01:46:54] i've not had the energy uh to do so um but i'm without getting too personal i'm getting sorted out

[01:47:01] now so i actually have the inner two podcast today but i haven't been able to catch up on the

[01:47:06] on a lot of the conversations that's going on there but i did catch at one point there was something

[01:47:10] about a documentary that Nate was involved in and it sounded like that's a really rich primary

[01:47:17] source of information and i thought if if you could quote that maybe that's some resource we should

[01:47:23] shout out for people right so yeah so the Nate about whom we're speaking now more about halfway

[01:47:29] through his uh his history drop um his wait there's more yeah all right you've gone um well so just

[01:47:40] just to i was gonna talk about this at the end but just for anyone who's interested uh all this

[01:47:45] stuff that he's talking about i actually started watching so his his name is Nathan led better

[01:47:49] to come by so we're outing you know sorry yeah Nate you'll notice that i i may or may not have

[01:47:56] been in your LinkedIn today but so he he is a PhD candidate at the department of East Asian studies

[01:48:03] at Princeton uh and he's going for PhD in Japanese medieval history and uh has he's our community

[01:48:11] is amazing yeah has has bachelor masters in in uh Asian studies and and Japanese language and also

[01:48:18] works as an intelligence officer in the u.s. R.I. and L.A. is on in japan okay uh so definitely very

[01:48:25] specifically expert on this subject right and as such um there's a six part docuseries on

[01:48:33] Netflix called the age of samurai and you'll see Nate is one of the talking heads there um

[01:48:39] and that covers all this stuff leading up to uh this series and he said don't watch episode six

[01:48:47] until after the season because it will spoil it and i get out just by looking at the um at the

[01:48:54] episode summaries you know uh episode six is like and then they form a um they form a region

[01:49:01] self with five regions like okay uh all right there we go yeah so perfect oh that's good all right so

[01:49:07] we've got more from Nate carry out please yeah so he says in the show world um the hatred that uh

[01:49:13] Ochiba has for a tornaga is a fascinating development in the book Ochiba hates tornaga because she

[01:49:19] thinks he may be the only person who suspects the air is not the tyco sun oh that's why you okay

[01:49:27] that's not why i said that but uh but uh apparently i just think that it was implied in the show um

[01:49:32] okay but apparently this is a plot point in the book too yeah and i'm going to actually skip over

[01:49:38] the next part of what he says here because i think it's possible that it'll be a spoiler in a future

[01:49:44] future flashback okay i think um yes save save that and maybe come back to it if that's shown on

[01:49:50] screen about the whole story about uh how the air was produced okay um and he says worth noting

[01:49:58] that another change from the history slash book is that the historical yorou gimi ochiba is not

[01:50:05] odour yeah he said before it says nic that's a tragic story in itself but i'll save that for now

[01:50:12] by changing it to be kuroda's daughter she now has an investment in avenging her father who was

[01:50:17] killed by the father of marica her childhood friends the dynamic changes totally in an unexpected

[01:50:22] way and i'm here for it in terms of the drama um and then yeah he concludes with a note about

[01:50:29] marica's marriage to bantaro says the show frames it as a ketchi trying to protect his daughter by

[01:50:35] getting her out of the way for the consequences of his rebellion in the historical reality the

[01:50:40] torahiro Matsu model um uh yaho su kawa fuji taka was not a toka gawa retainer but from a super

[01:50:50] super high ranking family in the old shogunat that now serves nobunaga just like a ketchi a ketchi

[01:50:57] wet his daughter into his family to hopefully get them on his side unfortunately for him so this

[01:51:03] is already answering the question asked night earlier um fortunately for him neither the host

[01:51:08] so kawa or several other families he had close relationships with chose to support him

[01:51:13] and so he was crushed by hirio shi the taiko it's really amusing to hear them talk about how

[01:51:19] unimportant and low the total family is in the show when the real host of kawa family had been basically

[01:51:25] the main deputies of the previous ashi kaga shoguns for over a century no taking some this is

[01:51:33] why they changed their names to take some liberties um but it's yeah it's a lot of names but i so

[01:51:37] i've watched now the first like episode and a half of the age of samurai and it actually is already

[01:51:43] helping me be like okay okay yeah i got this other names but uh they they do reenactments and

[01:51:51] i just go back to the the writer's room and the showrunners uh bravo just yeah absolute bravo for

[01:52:00] taking a complex rich history a dense novel and then creating a accessible television show

[01:52:10] that we can all just enjoy the hell out of yeah good stuff right yeah what else do we got uh so

[01:52:17] Nate also dropped one one other piece of information that i think everyone needs to know uh

[01:52:21] anasooai was one of the original members of the j pop band fakie and he shared a video of their song

[01:52:29] sugar sweet so you can put that on youtube and it's very yeah it's very a girl band and she's like

[01:52:36] the sexy one with a shirt off her shoulders uh that's great good stuff all right um okay so uh

[01:52:47] pausin 20 said wow episode six was incredible and when the writing and characters are interesting

[01:52:52] you don't need action scenes to have a great episode absolutely right we got to know mariko and

[01:52:58] ochiba their relationship why ochiba hates torenaga so much the brothel scene was fantastic by the way

[01:53:04] sugi yama was killed after four regions voted to kill him right but torenaga said that he was

[01:53:09] killed by bandits so yeah i mean that's uh like we said the the plague of the convenient bandits in

[01:53:16] this uh yeah yeah yeah yeah was he was he impeached was he given a death sentence by four regions i

[01:53:26] i read it is just um ochiba and ishito just acting unilaterally and eating secret yeah no i read

[01:53:33] that is such as well okay got it yeah um any case now the council of regions is puppet to

[01:53:40] ochiba and i guess they will impeached oranaga next and we will have war and um reds it be responded

[01:53:46] about the brothel scene i rewatched that scene several times the effect kiku had a mariko was

[01:53:50] almost ethereal mmm absolutely a beautiful way to describe it yeah quickly back around on the war

[01:53:58] thing i i think with crimson sky the idea here is to use an element of surprise and strike quickly

[01:54:06] so that the a war war is is avoided and instead uh they're just a decapitation a political decapitation

[01:54:15] i think is right what crimson sky is going to attempt to do yeah so all right well i think it's

[01:54:20] going to be a big uh bloodbath on screen too though yeah i'm here for the action i guess it's

[01:54:26] gonna keep the pokey the pokey the paulis scale right yeah oh man well i think the horses basically did

[01:54:33] it yeah if the boiling alive didn't right oh so okay so the next one it's it's an exchange um

[01:54:42] about but i think it's a very interesting exchange and it goes to well it's about the divorce question

[01:54:49] okay so erin k begins one of the things that was very striking to me in this episode was the scene

[01:54:54] in which torenaga told buntaro to just divorce mariko right buntaro not being catholic should make

[01:55:00] this possible if not a little bit scandalous on the political scene for two people so renowned

[01:55:04] to separate but it becomes far more complicated on the side of mariko a devout catholic

[01:55:09] this is something that would have have near zero tolerance in the church at this time

[01:55:14] it's curious to me that this is never cited as a reason for them not to be able to divorce

[01:55:19] maybe the reasons buntaro brings up are just what he finds as important and he isn't even considering

[01:55:25] mariko's religious beliefs as a factor in any case i could see mariko being shunned by the church

[01:55:30] and that she holds dear to herself if divorce were to occur and so so i mean i just

[01:55:38] quick comment um it's interesting that buntaro says not after all these years i'm not doing that

[01:55:44] like she's holding on to the institution of marriage even though there's a cost fallacy buntaro

[01:55:54] here's here's here's modern way feminism coming at you but it's true but it's still you know

[01:56:01] it's cut loose bro anyway um and so yeah so Abby who she lives in japan she's well-versed in

[01:56:09] japanese culture just for any listeners who don't know she responded maybe it just shows that

[01:56:14] however much political and economical influence the portuguese uh the church might have had

[01:56:19] they have no say in the social structure and more deeply ingrained local traditions so they are

[01:56:25] a political force to be used by torenaga by others but as mariko said in the first episode she can

[01:56:30] have two hearts well three without conflict she prays that's um seen with them praying to the

[01:56:37] prayer wall was beautiful too but her loyalty is to her own culture to what she perceives as her

[01:56:43] fight to torenaga um is unwavering and her religion plays very small part in all of it

[01:56:50] oh and the church would have been would have to be mighty tolerant of a lot of things in this land

[01:56:55] if it wanted to persist that it would not tolerate at home and so oh can i interject

[01:57:01] here really quick too it's interesting this question of mariko and her religion her relationship to

[01:57:05] her religion and i think it's interesting that's just a thought occurred to me now is that as a

[01:57:13] person who's living with the shame of her family who who doesn't understand that her father had

[01:57:18] actually had a greater purpose for her so dot it out um but that she's living with this that

[01:57:23] she's seeking she's a person who's seeking some sort of salvation so when she hears the words of

[01:57:29] the Jesuits and you know spreading the gospel she hears something in the salvation and then the

[01:57:35] sense of being able to maybe take herself out of her pay which brings back around to the tea house

[01:57:42] like people come here to escape their troubles and pains and yeah so that's a really

[01:57:51] even more potent moment it's not just about black thorn having a a rain and cloud moment but

[01:57:58] mariko coming to peace and coming to terms in a moment of aligning her emotional life with her exterior life

[01:58:07] yeah absolutely yeah no terria yeah so uh nates our resident japanese medieval historian

[01:58:15] responded to what Abby said with this it wouldn't exactly be her choice in this scenario i could

[01:58:21] look for it and post it but the Jesuits had some very opinionated things to say about

[01:58:26] japanese women and male female and male male relations they didn't set the rules though

[01:58:31] and they were very upset about that makes me kind of go yeah yeah chuckle chuckle um and so yeah

[01:58:40] so erin k respond to Abby there's undoubtedly a noticeable tolerance for the church they seem to

[01:58:44] look the other way to stay afloat and keep whatever influence they have the Catholics are definitely

[01:58:50] not taking an all or nothing approach to their missions in japan more of a slow but steady

[01:58:54] conversion without pushing too much against the japanese cultural institutions far cry from

[01:59:00] the forcible conversions and cruelty the Catholicism implemented in other parts of the world i say that

[01:59:05] with nothing but love to these who practice to those who practice Catholicism today i was raised

[01:59:10] in a very Catholic household um and yeah i agree although you know i commented before uh in a

[01:59:18] previous episode that it is we are told here in from the Dutch perspective that the reason why

[01:59:25] sorry history spoiler alert i think it's even after the season the the Dutch end up taking over

[01:59:31] the the relation between japan and the wider world and uh we're told from a historical perspective

[01:59:38] here that a part of it is that the Dutch did not push their religion as much okay like we're

[01:59:45] here for the money we're here to trade give us you know the so right right um and we'll give you our

[01:59:52] science books and that's why apparently for centuries uh western science was called Dutch studies

[01:59:58] oh interesting okay there you go and so yeah to wrap up this uh divorce discussion Abby responds

[02:00:05] yes the perspective of one raised in very Catholic environments were religious customs and duties

[02:00:10] permeate society can be very different than living in a society where it doesn't really play a part

[02:00:15] slow and steady conversion didn't really lead to much as japan is anything but very religious

[02:00:21] and definitely not Catholic Buddhism is practiced shintoism is practiced sometimes an intermingling of those two

[02:00:28] but they do not dictate the personal choices people make to the same degree the Catholicism does

[02:00:33] in his own sphere of influence and yeah that's i just have to piggyback on that that that was something

[02:00:39] that i was very interested in when i was visiting religious sites in japan um that people were

[02:00:45] saying you know that japanese people there's the a lot of Buddhism a lot of shintoism sprinkling

[02:00:50] of other things and the japanese kind of pick and choose which is most applicable to like they might

[02:00:56] have a Buddhist wedding and a shinto funeral um and just what what belief system applies best in

[02:01:06] this situation and celebrate christmas you know right it's interesting it'd be an interesting

[02:01:10] conversation to talk about with marlin about ritual rings and rituals go subscribe to that podcast

[02:01:18] but this idea that what monotheism and adherence to a single true quote unquote true religion does

[02:01:27] as opposed to a place where polytheism or and it's not about control but it's about exercising some

[02:01:38] um indeterminate part of our existence and satisfying those needs and uh of our mind seeking answers

[02:01:48] to questions that are beyond our our day-to-day survival but then how monotheism versus non monotheism

[02:01:56] i'll just say um how that uh that plays a part and then how how religion can be used as a political

[02:02:04] tool yeah right versus a uh spiritual tool yeah yeah absolutely cool all right um

[02:02:14] all right so davie mack pointed out something from the official pod that i also found interesting so

[02:02:19] he said uh touch points so the director said that uh she gave the actors each different movies to watch

[02:02:28] and so some of the movies that she assigned them to watch were engmar bergman's persona which is

[02:02:34] sort of about uh subsuming yourself in another person's person personality okay and then one car

[02:02:43] wise in the mood for love is like famously about the the longing from a distance you know the

[02:02:49] intense chemistry with barely touching um okay then james ivory is the remains of the day

[02:02:56] is about it's about a a butler who starts to fall in love but you know he was trying to decide how

[02:03:03] to how do you uh he you know he's someone who lives by tradition and how do you meld this messiness

[02:03:10] of love into the tradition on which he depends you know his entire livelihood right right

[02:03:18] and uh just made them watch them over and over again i mean i think once it's

[02:03:23] surprises right right great i think it's interesting that each each one got like a different and you

[02:03:29] can tell just by the the types of movies which one went to which right right right uh ladies of

[02:03:36] the willow world uh who's the director um because i think it is um uh did i hear that the director

[02:03:46] of this episode is uh uh uh japanese mexican woman oh i mean i don't know yeah yeah uh hero me

[02:03:56] kamata yeah oh it looks like she's got a legacy of monsters monarch credit as well

[02:04:04] yeah so she i guess she's born in mexic city okay very interesting uh very cool

[02:04:09] is there an interesting perspective yeah totally that's awesome uh great uh great

[02:04:14] a great episode for her to be directing very cool okay yeah all right moving on

[02:04:19] okay so um yeah sub-zero says so clearly monarchar's gonna kick some ass at some point right they

[02:04:25] twice show how good she is or that bladed sphere uh i love how they make sure every character has

[02:04:30] depth ventaro and most other shows would have just been a two-dimensional a whole yeah but that scene

[02:04:35] with torenaga revealed layers of complexity you can tell how much he yearns for monarcho's affection

[02:04:41] and how much it pains him to see her connection with jb doesn't make him a good guy but we have a

[02:04:46] better understanding for his words and actions and elm a o at yabushika drafting well

[02:04:55] we got a one-footji look in one yabushika line and yeah but they made sure deliver yeah exactly

[02:05:02] and and erin's case says that line had me cackling his poor nephew just gets promised the world

[02:05:07] and then gets everything immediately snatched away first the canon regiment and now he's cut from

[02:05:12] the well that's right wow wow poor oh wow very very um and then yeah the last comments is uh

[02:05:19] from brian 880 63 yep and uh he just says simply episode nine is titled crimson sky

[02:05:28] handsome up oh oh oh you can realize that book a lot woo so what do we add six here so we got a

[02:05:34] couple more to go and then yeah nice okay great well hopefully we'll have a nice penultimate

[02:05:39] episode nine with uh cool resolution intent so yeah absolutely yeah i think that's i think

[02:05:44] the pacing has been perfect on this perfect yeah absolutely spot-on every episode is its each

[02:05:50] each episode is complete in whole sort of in itself even though it ties into the larger stuff

[02:05:55] Yeah, this is a super-satisfying season of television.

[02:05:58] Super good.

[02:05:59] All right.

[02:06:00] Well, I think we should wrap it up there.

[02:06:02] Not a lot to say.

[02:06:04] Just remember if you're interested in supporting the community, check us out in the show notes.

[02:06:09] Go to our website and there you'll find links either to Patreon or Supercast, your choice.

[02:06:14] But all of the support, all the financial support that we get goes to supporting the community

[02:06:19] at large, we're not so much a direct commercial interest.

[02:06:25] We're trying to support a community of creators and we need a lot of stuff to be able to make

[02:06:31] that.

[02:06:32] So, we appreciate everyone who is able to contribute in that way.

[02:06:34] And then we'd appreciate everyone who listens.

[02:06:36] So whether you're listening to the ad supported episodes or the ad free ones, we're glad

[02:06:41] that you're here.

[02:06:42] We've talked a lot about the Discord, so join us there if you're interested in that

[02:06:46] sort of real-time conversation.

[02:06:48] Even real-time is kind of a modern version of what forum posts are but it's a little bit

[02:06:53] more spontaneity into the conversations.

[02:06:58] We have different channels set up for all the different projects that we're covering.

[02:07:01] We've got a great moderator team and we have thread threads for individual episodes.

[02:07:06] If you need any help, when you get there, just shout out.

[02:07:10] And there's a lot of great folks there.

[02:07:12] It's a really supportive community and they will get you assorted out.

[02:07:17] I've mentioned rings and rituals.

[02:07:18] Oh sorry, were you going to say something?

[02:07:20] No, I was just going to say, I think I don't remember.

[02:07:22] I was at Aaron K who made the graphic so that to show people because sometimes Discord

[02:07:29] is a little, I love software that has a lot of options but sometimes it can be overwhelming

[02:07:34] all the options.

[02:07:35] So he made little diagrams on how to do things.

[02:07:37] Yeah, yeah, super appreciative.

[02:07:39] He's one of our mods and our mod team is great.

[02:07:42] So happy, especially during this last month which has just been a bit of a mess.

[02:07:48] Not a mess but it's just real life has intruded.

[02:07:52] It's made itself known.

[02:07:54] And so just to know that our community can manage and run itself is really great.

[02:08:00] It really says a lot about the people that we've attracted to this.

[02:08:04] Anyway, rings and rituals, go listen to it, go subscribe to it, go listen to it now.

[02:08:09] Marilyn and Dr. Sarah Brown talk about the rituals that we find in the first season of

[02:08:17] rings of power which we haven't heard yet but I think it's going to come this year.

[02:08:21] And we'll see but it's a really great conversation and breakdown about how important ritual is

[02:08:27] into our lives.

[02:08:28] Modern and...

[02:08:29] Perfect for rewatch or not.

[02:08:30] Absolutely.

[02:08:31] Yeah.

[02:08:32] Alicia, what are you up to?

[02:08:36] Do you have anything that you want to talk about?

[02:08:37] Yeah so in Wilshift test, we are looking ahead to the Begin 23 season 2 so watch out

[02:08:46] for I just dropped an episode where we do some previewing but there's going to be another

[02:08:52] episode coming out early this week with some more preview thoughts at plus and interview

[02:08:57] with you how we move on.

[02:08:59] How's that?

[02:09:00] That was a really interesting discussion so I can't wait to show that with everyone.

[02:09:05] And then of course yeah, we are plowing head with the Dune content there just at a slower

[02:09:10] pace.

[02:09:11] Okay.

[02:09:12] Because life.

[02:09:13] And then the other big project in the short term is watch out at the end of end of April

[02:09:21] early May for the Star Wars Complete Canon timeline podcast to launch and so we're going

[02:09:26] to line things up a little bit give you some backstory going into the accolade which will

[02:09:31] cover on a week by week basis and then continue to cover the entire Star Wars story as it stands

[02:09:37] in Canon timeline order.

[02:09:39] That's a massive project.

[02:09:41] What a yes.

[02:09:43] I'm planning it for ages.

[02:09:44] All right, yes you have.

[02:09:46] I remember you talking about this back in the day back when we first started talking cool

[02:09:50] sounds exciting.

[02:09:51] Okay.

[02:09:52] Yeah, very exciting.

[02:09:53] Properly Howard movie review there on a break but they have plans.

[02:09:57] I know that they have a season concept already and then we're just waiting for Severance

[02:10:01] season two and then we're going to do a four way on that.

[02:10:05] We are way off for lore hounds on our internal programming.

[02:10:08] Yeah, this month has been a bit topsy turvy but hang in there.

[02:10:14] The Halo episode is going to come.

[02:10:17] I think we've abandoned last airbender.

[02:10:19] I don't know the dance can happen.

[02:10:21] I want to cover that one.

[02:10:24] Okay, you can definitely.

[02:10:27] We do have RC and Silmarillion story still waiting in the wings and Star Wars a new hope

[02:10:33] for our Star Wars film festival.

[02:10:35] And John and I are talking about Dr. Who coverage.

[02:10:38] Oh, okay, very good.

[02:10:39] I like it and I know that Anthony has some other conversations planned.

[02:10:42] I've got some ideas.

[02:10:43] So yeah, there's stuff there.

[02:10:45] Don't worry.

[02:10:46] We haven't got away.

[02:10:47] We're just we're all on a back foot a little bit.

[02:10:49] We're just going to get ourselves onto a front foot so that we can cover Severance.

[02:10:54] House of the Dragon brings a power.

[02:10:55] The accolades the boys the bear all kinds of stuff coming to summer.

[02:10:59] It's going to be a hot summer.

[02:11:00] Hot TV summer.

[02:11:01] All right, let's wrap up.

[02:11:02] Summer is my friend like I like that.

[02:11:05] I like it hot nerds summer hashtag hot nerds summer.

[02:11:07] Okay, shout outs discord server boosters opus the machine.

[02:11:11] Narls Aaron Kay teller thriller and dork of the ninjas to our lore master top tier subscribers.

[02:11:18] We always like to give them a shout out as an acknowledgement for their support.

[02:11:22] Samaritan mark H Michael G Michelle E David W Brian P Nick W SC Peter O H Bettina W Adam

[02:11:30] S Nancy M do 71 Brian 83 Frederick H Sarah L.

[02:11:36] Eric Eric F Matthew M Sarah M DJ Mewa Andra B Kwong Yu dead I Jedi Bob Nathan T Alex

[02:11:45] V Aeron T sub zero Aaron Kay dally V 21 Narls and forever last but never least Adrienne.

[02:11:55] Thank you all so very much for your support.

[02:11:59] Thank you to everyone who listens.

[02:12:00] Thanks to everyone who subscribe.

[02:12:02] Thanks to you Alicia for being the third leg of our tripod here for the show.

[02:12:08] Glad I get to talk about sugar so much.

[02:12:11] Yeah, yeah, be right back and I go look up Nugging not to lessons.

[02:12:16] Awesome.

[02:12:17] They have those in the Dutch.

[02:12:19] I actually have looked before for I've always wanted to learn how to fight with like

[02:12:23] a staff like that.

[02:12:24] So I like it.

[02:12:25] Very cool.

[02:12:26] All right, well, we'll definitely gonna figure out what's going on next week.

[02:12:30] And I think we'll have some fun conversations when we do our season wrap up at the end of

[02:12:35] episode 10.

[02:12:36] And until then, we will see everybody next week for episode seven.

[02:12:41] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[02:12:45] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds.com slash contact.

[02:12:51] Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[02:12:57] Any opinion stated or ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any

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[02:13:02] Thanks for listening.