‘Jumpin’, Jumpin’ by Destiny’s Child and Leaping Neuroplasticity

[00:00:00] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer? Jemand, der deine Wünsche wahr werden lässt und mit dir das schönste Abenteuer deines Lebens erleben möchte?

[00:00:10] Die Commerce-Plattform Shopify revolutioniert Millionen von Unternehmen weltweit. Mit Shopify richtest du im Nu deinen Online-Shop ein. Ganz ohne Programmier- oder Designkenntnisse.

[00:00:21] Dank der effizienten Einrichtung und intuitiven Social-Media- und Online-Marketplace-Integration kannst du über Instagram, eBay und Co. werben und verkaufen.

[00:00:31] Neue Zielgruppen zu erreichen war noch nie so einfach. Shopify bietet auf einer einzigen sicheren Plattform alle Tools, um dein Online-Business aufzubauen.

[00:00:40] Kostenlos testen und dein Business der Welt präsentieren. Shopify.de//try besuchen

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[00:00:55] I could have 20 years of totally different behavior and she might still be like, oh Mark, you know him, never doing laundry.

[00:01:02] And I'm like, mom, I've been doing my own laundry for 30 years.

[00:01:04] My family thinks that I lose my keys all the time because when I was a teenager, I lost my keys a lot.

[00:01:10] And they'll still be like, oh Nicole always loses her keys.

[00:01:12] And it's been 25 years.

[00:01:25] Hi, I'm Mark.

[00:01:26] And I'm Nicole and this is Nevermind the Music.

[00:01:29] What are we talking about today, Mark?

[00:01:31] Let's talk about Destiny's Child.

[00:01:33] I love Destiny's Child.

[00:01:35] Don't you?

[00:01:36] I do now.

[00:01:37] I have to say I was full on punk rock sort of guy back when this came out.

[00:01:44] I kind of passed on late 90s R&B, which is awful because some of it is so good.

[00:01:51] I think I liked it.

[00:01:52] I've always liked, you know, vocal harmonies and harmony groups and things like that.

[00:01:55] I liked it, but I did not go out to consume it.

[00:01:59] Like it felt like it wasn't for me, so to speak.

[00:02:02] And to an extent that was totally correct.

[00:02:04] But I like Destiny's Child a lot more now than I did back when I was a kid when it came out.

[00:02:09] Me too.

[00:02:10] Destiny's Child, when they came out, I listened to, but I couldn't let anyone in my life know that I listened to Destiny's Child.

[00:02:17] Really?

[00:02:17] It was not cool.

[00:02:18] You had social pressures that were maybe even stronger than mine.

[00:02:21] And I was the guy hanging around with the punks and the skaters.

[00:02:24] And, you know, your social pressure was probably stronger given that context.

[00:02:28] But still, it was like I wouldn't admit to folks that, you know, Crazy in Love was my pump up jam.

[00:02:34] I was going out on a Friday night.

[00:02:35] All right.

[00:02:35] Well, we'll get to Crazy in Love another time.

[00:02:38] Which isn't Destiny's Child.

[00:02:38] We have to say it's not Destiny's Child.

[00:02:41] That is a Beyonce solo song.

[00:02:43] Yeah, that's not Destiny's Child at all, actually.

[00:02:46] It's just Beyonce.

[00:02:47] So, okay.

[00:02:47] Anyways, we are talking about Jumpin' Jumpin', which was a song I did like back then.

[00:03:05] Crazy in Love, still a little ways away.

[00:03:08] We're still in the midst of Destiny's Child's run.

[00:03:11] This is from their second album, Writings on the Wall.

[00:03:13] This song peaked at number three.

[00:03:15] Four of their other songs hit number one.

[00:03:17] And this one didn't.

[00:03:19] But this one was in the top ten for 16 weeks.

[00:03:23] That's a long time.

[00:03:24] That's a really long time.

[00:03:25] That's multiple months of this song being dominant.

[00:03:28] Four months, even.

[00:03:29] Four.

[00:03:30] Four months.

[00:03:30] It depends.

[00:03:31] Is one of the months February?

[00:03:33] Oh.

[00:03:33] Because I think it would change.

[00:03:34] Always with the February.

[00:03:36] Or less than.

[00:03:36] This is actual information that could be found out exactly which weeks.

[00:03:40] I am not going to look it up.

[00:03:41] So, what I did look into, because I was completely oblivious to the personnel of Destiny's Child.

[00:03:47] Like, I'd seen the videos.

[00:03:49] I knew Beyonce.

[00:03:50] Like, if you showed me a picture of Beyonce, I would say, oh, it's the lead singer of Destiny's Child.

[00:03:55] But did you know how much bouncing around and changing around was going on in this era?

[00:03:59] There was a lot.

[00:04:00] Because it was like a formulated girl group.

[00:04:03] It was around Backstreet Boys, right?

[00:04:06] And NSYNC where they were.

[00:04:08] That era, you mean.

[00:04:08] That era.

[00:04:09] When it was a formulaic thing.

[00:04:12] I think TLC is in the same era, too, that they did try on different personalities to find, like, the right triad.

[00:04:18] So, we have Beyonce and Kelly Rowland.

[00:04:21] And then there was another one.

[00:04:22] But they switched them out a lot.

[00:04:24] Well, so, yeah.

[00:04:25] It was Beyonce and Kelly Rowland.

[00:04:27] And I think they were kind of the core.

[00:04:29] Sure.

[00:04:29] But this album has Latoya Luckett and Latavia Roberson.

[00:04:34] But the video, which is to say anything I would have ever seen, is Michelle Williams and Farrah Franklin.

[00:04:41] Because those other two women were forced out.

[00:04:43] They wanted to split with their manager, Beyonce's dad, Matthew Knowles.

[00:04:48] And they forced, I don't know who they is, the record company, Matthew himself, the rest of the group.

[00:04:54] I don't know.

[00:04:55] But they were, I think, probably not particularly amicably asked to leave the group and replaced.

[00:05:00] So, we're seeing, you know, everybody's lip syncing in a music video.

[00:05:04] But we're seeing people lip syncing to songs they didn't even sing.

[00:05:07] What?

[00:05:07] And we, I think of Justin Schell, there's three people.

[00:05:09] But you just said there were four people.

[00:05:11] Farrah Franklin was only in the group for five months.

[00:05:14] So, I think the Jumpin' Jumpin' video is possibly the only one.

[00:05:20] No, no.

[00:05:21] I think she's in Say My Name also.

[00:05:22] But she did not appear in the song, did not sing in the songs.

[00:05:27] This is the last video she was in.

[00:05:30] So, yeah.

[00:05:31] You definitely, the three, when you think of, like...

[00:05:34] You should think of Michelle Williams, Kelly Rowland, and Beyonce.

[00:05:37] That's right.

[00:05:37] Exactly.

[00:05:38] But on this album, there were really seven Destiny's children?

[00:05:42] Destiny's, the youth, the young people of Destiny?

[00:05:45] Well, no, there was Beyonce, Kelly, Latoya, and Latavia recorded the album.

[00:05:51] Sure.

[00:05:52] Latoya and Latavia left and were replaced by Michelle and Farrah.

[00:05:56] Farrah then shortly after left.

[00:05:58] I don't know that Farrah ever really recorded with them.

[00:06:00] She didn't really, she had a failure to launch.

[00:06:02] And then, something like that.

[00:06:03] And then, and then there's the three, but then there's other people in the mix sometimes.

[00:06:09] But basically, that's the classic three, I guess.

[00:06:12] Sure.

[00:06:13] And when you think about it, that's their next record, plus the videos from this album.

[00:06:18] So visually...

[00:06:19] Sure.

[00:06:19] Even though some of their biggest hits come from writings on the wall, none of us saw those

[00:06:25] folks, unless you were there from the beginning, maybe, when they were first touring it.

[00:06:29] And I'd like to take a minute, podcast listeners, to explain to you that Mark and I are not

[00:06:36] fans of, we're fans of Destiny's Child.

[00:06:38] But you might have stumbled across this podcast thinking like, oh, awesome, a deep dive into

[00:06:43] Destiny's Child.

[00:06:44] You know more than we do.

[00:06:46] So...

[00:06:47] You definitely know more about Beyonce.

[00:06:48] I'm a fan of Beyonce, but the level of fan that is possible out there in the internet

[00:06:53] is so much higher.

[00:06:55] I have one doctorate, folks.

[00:06:56] I do not have time to have another one, because that's how much there would be to know about

[00:07:00] Beyonce.

[00:07:00] So if you have a doctorate in Destiny's Children, generally, please reach out and let us

[00:07:06] know.

[00:07:07] We're very naive, and you know more than us, and that's okay, because we're going to talk

[00:07:10] about the theory behind this song and why it does make you feel like you need to get

[00:07:16] jumping.

[00:07:16] Jumping, jumping.

[00:07:17] Common jumping.

[00:07:18] I don't know how much of that was facetious, but I literally do want to know.

[00:07:21] I want to know all of it.

[00:07:22] If people want to know the actual details about what happened with Latoya Luckett and

[00:07:26] Latavia Roberson...

[00:07:27] It's got to be something with the dad.

[00:07:29] I would love to know, because how do you record these songs and not go, oh my God, these songs

[00:07:33] are really hot.

[00:07:34] We're going to be famous.

[00:07:35] And like, are they getting paid for it?

[00:07:37] I assume they got their cut, but they don't have as much of a cut as if they would have stayed

[00:07:42] in the band.

[00:07:43] I mean, they're no Beyonce.

[00:07:44] Right.

[00:07:44] We know her cut was all right.

[00:07:46] Well, her dad was the boss.

[00:07:47] I mean, yeah.

[00:07:48] It's something's up.

[00:07:49] That's all I'm saying.

[00:07:51] Right in.

[00:07:51] Tell us.

[00:07:52] So the cool thing about this song is also that it's kind of an accident.

[00:07:56] So this song was written by Beyonce and Chad Elliott and Rufus Black.

[00:08:01] So Elliot wrote the beat for his own rap project.

[00:08:05] He was going to rap over it.

[00:08:07] And then accidentally, when he was sending songs to the Destiny's Child and their management

[00:08:12] for them to consider, he accidentally included this beat that he'd written for himself.

[00:08:18] And Beyonce starts writing to it.

[00:08:20] And she comes up with this song.

[00:08:22] And then it becomes a hit.

[00:08:25] Yeah.

[00:08:25] I just love how, you know, in music, there's authorship and ownership.

[00:08:29] And whose song is it?

[00:08:30] Like, I love the idea that she just took it.

[00:08:33] And she's like, this is going to be mine.

[00:08:34] And she probably didn't even have any idea that he didn't intend for her to do that.

[00:08:40] And then she wrote this song that turned into such a hit.

[00:08:42] And now he's rich.

[00:08:43] And now he gets way more royalties than he ever would if...

[00:08:47] Like, who was that guy?

[00:08:49] I've never...

[00:08:49] If Chad Elliott had done his own version.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:52] Okay.

[00:08:52] So what I want to talk about this song is the vocal melody and how it compares to most

[00:08:57] pop song melodies.

[00:09:00] At the risk of oversimplifying it, this melody is jumping.

[00:09:05] And you'll see what I mean.

[00:09:07] Oh, no.

[00:09:08] Let's listen.

[00:09:08] You don't like it?

[00:09:09] You don't like it?

[00:09:09] I like it.

[00:09:10] I mean, it's fine.

[00:09:11] So you're like, oh, Mark just made a pun.

[00:09:14] No.

[00:09:14] I actually mean exactly what I said.

[00:09:17] And I'll explain.

[00:09:18] So let's listen to three top 10 R&B hits from 1999, which is the year this came out.

[00:09:25] Awesome.

[00:09:26] Okay.

[00:09:26] And I want you to think about...

[00:09:28] I'm going to spoil it a little bit.

[00:09:29] Think about how singable the melody is.

[00:09:32] Think about how close the notes are to one another.

[00:09:35] Here's No Scrubs, who you can hear us talk about TLC on another episode.

[00:09:40] I love TLC so much.

[00:09:47] That's it.

[00:09:48] Just a little snippet.

[00:09:49] I don't want no scrubs.

[00:09:51] Notes are close together.

[00:09:52] Makes it easier to sing.

[00:09:54] Makes it easier to hear, to memorize.

[00:09:58] Here's Heartbreak Hotel.

[00:10:00] No, not Elvis.

[00:10:01] Whitney Houston with Faith Evans and Kelly Price.

[00:10:03] Technically, this came out in December of 1998, but it became a hit in 99.

[00:10:18] They all kind of sound the same in a way.

[00:10:20] Well, simple melodies.

[00:10:21] The chorus.

[00:10:22] It's a catchy chorus.

[00:10:23] Close together notes.

[00:10:25] That one uses half steps, which we've talked about in other podcasts.

[00:10:29] Third example from the same year.

[00:10:31] You Know What's Up by Donnell Jones.

[00:10:40] I've never heard that before, but I like it.

[00:10:43] Feels very 90s to me.

[00:10:44] Yeah, I love it.

[00:10:45] Mid to late 90s.

[00:10:46] Really soulful vocal over a hip hop beat.

[00:10:49] All these melodies have what we call stepwise motion.

[00:10:53] Stepwise meaning the melodies move by steps.

[00:10:56] We've talked about scales on this podcast before, but you got like C to D.

[00:11:00] That's a step or C sharp to D.

[00:11:03] That's a half step.

[00:11:04] Most melodies use whole steps and half steps.

[00:11:07] They're easy to sing.

[00:11:08] Easy to remember.

[00:11:10] It feels very vocal.

[00:11:11] We often associate jumps, leaps, meaning going from like a C all the way up to a G or something.

[00:11:18] We associate those more with instruments.

[00:11:21] It's less vocal to be able to do that more quickly unless you've got, you know, some of

[00:11:26] these virtuoso singers like, you know, Bobby McFerrin or Mariah Carey or Joni Mitchell.

[00:11:31] Or dare I say Beyonce.

[00:11:34] Or Beyonce.

[00:11:35] Because most mere mortals use mostly scalar motion.

[00:11:39] And that goes also for most Destiny's Child tunes.

[00:11:43] But this song.

[00:11:50] It's so good.

[00:11:51] Hot, hot.

[00:11:52] Hot, hot.

[00:11:52] Not only is there cool harmony over that chord, G sharp major, but they're jumping.

[00:11:59] They're leaping.

[00:12:00] Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.

[00:12:03] Why don't I just play on my good friend, digital piano, Mr. Roland over there?

[00:12:12] G sharp.

[00:12:13] Also A flat.

[00:12:15] Also A flat.

[00:12:16] Yes.

[00:12:16] I would say this song is in C sharp minor though.

[00:12:19] So the A flat would be needlessly complicated looking.

[00:12:22] C sharp minor.

[00:12:23] Would that be D flat major?

[00:12:28] D flat minor.

[00:12:29] D flat minor.

[00:12:29] And C sharp minor.

[00:12:30] But D flat minor, you're going to have nasty stuff like F flats.

[00:12:34] Ugh.

[00:12:34] Yuck.

[00:12:35] And C flats.

[00:12:37] And so we just call it C sharp and G sharp.

[00:12:39] Let's keep things simple.

[00:12:49] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer?

[00:12:52] Jemand, der deine Wünsche wahr werden lässt und mit dir das schönste Abenteuer deines Lebens erleben möchte?

[00:12:58] Die Commerce-Plattform Shopify revolutioniert Millionen von Unternehmen weltweit.

[00:13:04] Mit Shopify richtest du im Nu deinen Online-Shop ein.

[00:13:08] Ganz ohne Programmier- oder Designkenntnisse.

[00:13:11] Dank der effizienten Einrichtung und intuitiven Social Media und Online Marketplace-Integration kannst du über Instagram, eBay und Co. werben und verkaufen.

[00:13:20] Neue Zielgruppen zu erreichen war noch nie so einfach.

[00:13:23] Shopify bietet auf einer einzigen sicheren Plattform alle Tools, um dein Online-Business aufzubauen.

[00:13:29] Kostenlos testen und dein Business der Welt präsentieren.

[00:13:33] Shopify.de-try besuchen.

[00:13:36] Einfach Shopify.de-try eingeben und loslegen.

[00:13:41] Made for Germany.

[00:13:42] Powered by Shopify.

[00:13:54] Does Destiny's Child use a bunch of jumps?

[00:13:57] Or do they use stepwise motion like the rest of the mortals?

[00:14:01] Well, given that they're a pop group, you expect steps.

[00:14:05] But given that they got Beyonce, you go, eh, there might be some vocal acrobatics in there.

[00:14:09] So here's Independent Women Part 1 from 2000.

[00:14:12] Question, tell me how you feel about this.

[00:14:14] Gotta control me, boy, you get dismissed.

[00:14:17] Steps.

[00:14:18] Same song, The Hook.

[00:14:25] This was a really great song.

[00:14:27] That's a good one.

[00:14:28] Yeah.

[00:14:28] That one's a mix.

[00:14:29] They've got some leaps and some steps in there.

[00:14:32] Say My Name, also from the same record, 1999.

[00:14:43] This is my favorite Destiny's Child song.

[00:14:45] It's such a good melody.

[00:14:46] There's a great Hozier cover of this song, too.

[00:14:48] No kidding, really?

[00:14:49] It's so good.

[00:14:50] I'm sort of not that surprised by that, but I really want to hear that.

[00:14:52] It's so good.

[00:14:53] Because this song, just from a songwriting perspective, the melody is just so infectious.

[00:14:57] It's beautiful.

[00:14:57] And Hozier's voice, he comes at it with a completely different tone.

[00:15:00] And it's so emotive.

[00:15:02] Is it like he takes you to church?

[00:15:05] I'm a big fan of Hozier.

[00:15:07] He's one of my favorite current artists.

[00:15:09] So he takes me to church quite often, actually.

[00:15:12] All right.

[00:15:12] So say My Name, mostly scales.

[00:15:15] Not a lot of jumps.

[00:15:16] Last one.

[00:15:17] Bills, bills, bills.

[00:15:18] From the same record.

[00:15:31] Can you tell me scales or jumps?

[00:15:35] Jumps.

[00:15:36] Jumps.

[00:15:36] And I'm looking at your face.

[00:15:38] You're looking at me.

[00:15:38] Just answer, honestly.

[00:15:39] So the beginning.

[00:15:40] Can you pay my bill?

[00:15:41] Scales.

[00:15:42] But then the I don't do.

[00:15:44] Jumps.

[00:15:44] Jumps.

[00:15:44] Jumps.

[00:15:45] And it's hard to sing.

[00:15:46] You hear how bad I sounded doing that?

[00:15:47] I think you sounded great, Mark.

[00:15:48] But that part, thank you.

[00:15:50] I need the ego boost always.

[00:15:51] Come on.

[00:15:52] That moment, especially with the instrumentation doubling the vocals, stands out so strikingly

[00:15:58] because of these jumps.

[00:15:59] But the rest of it is scales, right?

[00:16:01] So what they do is what most pop artists are going to give us, which is a mix of scale stuff

[00:16:08] and stepwise stuff.

[00:16:10] But this song, Jumpin' Jumpin'.

[00:16:12] Let's listen to the verse.

[00:16:20] Just repeats a note and gives us a leap up of a third.

[00:16:25] Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop.

[00:16:29] Just a leap.

[00:16:30] No stepwise motion at all.

[00:16:32] Later in the verse, even more dramatic.

[00:16:37] Can you hear it?

[00:16:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:41] What's she doing?

[00:16:42] Jumpin'.

[00:16:42] Jumpin' way down.

[00:16:44] Jumpin', jumpin'.

[00:16:46] And then, of course, after that, we get this super leapy pre-chorus we already talked about.

[00:16:56] What's with all the leaps?

[00:16:58] What is with all the leaps?

[00:16:59] What do you think?

[00:17:00] Well, it shows off their vocal acrobatics.

[00:17:04] Sure, definitely.

[00:17:05] I think it builds a certain tension that I love in R&B music because we think of it as so smooth,

[00:17:12] but this really enunciated tension that builds when you use this jumping situation

[00:17:17] really goes against what you consider as classic R&B.

[00:17:21] And I think that that's why when you think of Destiny's Child, it feels, it just hits different.

[00:17:26] You know a Destiny's Child song.

[00:17:27] In fact, it does kind of stand alone.

[00:17:29] Well...

[00:17:29] I don't know.

[00:17:30] What do you think?

[00:17:31] What I think is, I hear a lot of hip-hop in this song.

[00:17:34] Sure.

[00:17:34] And I hear a lot of hip-hop in a good number of Destiny's Child songs.

[00:17:39] And that's normal, right?

[00:17:40] By the mid to late 90s, R&B and hip-hop were very solidly partners, right?

[00:17:46] It wasn't as separate as it would have been in the late 80s, for example, right?

[00:17:49] Until maybe New Jack Swing and all that stuff.

[00:17:53] TLC broke some barriers with that intersection of pop and hip-hop.

[00:17:57] It caused a lot of tension.

[00:17:58] I think TLC is a great example of where that mix really broke into the mainstream.

[00:18:03] Because I think R&B and hip-hop were doing the mix before, but the sort of super top five single...

[00:18:09] You know, because you look at New Jack Swing.

[00:18:10] I mean, look at New Edition and all that.

[00:18:13] Some of that had the hip-hop beat behind it or like BBD, right?

[00:18:16] That kind of stuff.

[00:18:17] But TLC brought it to a totally different level, right?

[00:18:20] In terms of how poppy and mainstream it was.

[00:18:22] Anyways, in hip-hop, we really want people to understand the words, right?

[00:18:30] And the words are often coming rapid fire, sort of for example, like this.

[00:18:35] And so the emphasis of the syllable is super important because you want to indicate certain

[00:18:46] syllables to be emphasized in order to make people actually understand what you're saying.

[00:18:50] So if I took a random set of lines like, never mind the music podcast.

[00:18:56] If I wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying, if I was speaking quickly or singing

[00:19:01] quickly, I would want to emphasize certain syllables more than others.

[00:19:05] So I'm not going to emphasize never mind.

[00:19:08] I'm going to emphasize never mind, right?

[00:19:10] So if I was singing never mind, never mind, I'm emphasizing that higher note.

[00:19:16] Never mind the music.

[00:19:18] I think that should, sorry to interrupt you, but I think that that should be our theme song.

[00:19:22] I'm already working on a theme song.

[00:19:23] Just do that.

[00:19:23] You haven't heard it yet, but never mind the music.

[00:19:26] I wouldn't do never mind the music.

[00:19:28] But also if I didn't do a jump it off, I went never mind the music.

[00:19:32] It wouldn't be as easy to feel the emphasis, right?

[00:19:35] Sure.

[00:19:36] So I think that's a big part of this.

[00:19:38] And this goes back a long way.

[00:19:41] There's a concept in opera called recitative.

[00:19:44] Have you heard of recitative before?

[00:19:45] No, I do like you saying it though.

[00:19:48] Recitative.

[00:19:49] Recitative is what it's called.

[00:19:50] So in opera, unlike even plays with songs or musical theater, everything is generally sung,

[00:19:58] right?

[00:19:58] Opera is basically one long theatrical piece of music, right?

[00:20:03] So what if you got to get through plot?

[00:20:05] What if you got to get through dialogue?

[00:20:07] They have to sort of sing, speak.

[00:20:09] Sure.

[00:20:09] And so you get a lot of times when they're singing and they're jumping from word to word.

[00:20:14] And the only way you can make sure the audience understands them is if you have leaps, right?

[00:20:21] Because you're not going to do a whole song every time anybody has a single thing to say,

[00:20:25] right?

[00:20:25] You use the recitative.

[00:20:26] So here's an example of that.

[00:20:28] I wanted something English language so folks would have a better chance of understanding what

[00:20:33] I'm talking about.

[00:20:33] So I know there's plenty of old opera, Purcell and all that, but this is Billy Budd by Benjamin

[00:20:40] Britton based on the Herman Melville story.

[00:20:42] This is 1951 and you're going to hear Philip Langridge and Thomas Allen playing the two of

[00:20:48] the lead roles.

[00:21:13] You do hear that convention in musical theater quite a bit.

[00:21:16] Sure.

[00:21:16] Now that you said it, I'm a big musical theater fan.

[00:21:18] I go to a lot of, to see a lot of musicals, especially recently.

[00:21:23] And I never knew that that was a, there was a word for that, but you hear it all the time.

[00:21:28] I mean, half the show is just sing, speak.

[00:21:31] Yeah.

[00:21:31] Yeah.

[00:21:31] It's cool.

[00:21:31] And so you can hear it.

[00:21:33] I mean, next time you talking to a kid, can you read?

[00:21:35] Like you've got to use that emphasis, right?

[00:21:38] Your name at the beginning of class.

[00:21:40] I'm probably not gonna.

[00:21:41] Not gonna.

[00:21:41] You don't have to.

[00:21:42] Okay.

[00:21:42] They're doing it for you.

[00:21:43] So of course, opera has been around for a while, but the more direct influence is what

[00:21:48] I'm talking about in hip hop and hip hop in the United States starts mostly with spoken

[00:21:53] rap, which is to say rapping that's rhythmic without a lot of pitch to it.

[00:21:57] Now folks will still emphasize with a pitch, but not really by singing.

[00:22:01] You know, by this point, there was a lot more sung hip hop.

[00:22:04] A lot of hip hop has always had a Caribbean influence to it.

[00:22:08] So that early influence of Caribbean music on hip hop is clear, but also the sung sort

[00:22:15] of rapping style of dance hall music from Jamaica was a later influence that was coming

[00:22:20] in and eventually is part of why the sort of sung rap, kind of like what you're hearing

[00:22:24] Beyonce do here, became popular.

[00:22:27] So here's an example of dance hall sort of doing a recitative.

[00:22:31] So this is Bougie Banton.

[00:22:32] This is 1992, though dance hall existed before that.

[00:22:36] But he's one of the great artists of that style.

[00:22:39] He was only 15 when he recorded this.

[00:22:41] This is Boom Bye Bye.

[00:22:54] Did you say he was 15?

[00:22:57] I think he was 15 when he recorded this too.

[00:22:59] That's crazy.

[00:22:59] His voice sounds like he's 60 or something.

[00:23:02] I thought like maybe he meant 50.

[00:23:04] No, I think 15.

[00:23:05] But anyways, the fact is both of these, the recitative and the dance hall use leaps to

[00:23:13] emphasize a syllable and get through a lot of words more quickly.

[00:23:17] So when we hear Beyonce spinning through the verse.

[00:23:22] Last week and you stayed at home alone and lonely.

[00:23:25] Couldn't find your man.

[00:23:26] He was chilling with his homies.

[00:23:28] He was chilling with his homies.

[00:23:30] You emphasize that if it was chilling with his homies.

[00:23:32] No, it's chilling with his homies.

[00:23:34] The leap provides the emphasis more effectively than a step would.

[00:23:38] And you see the same convention, not just in musical theater, not just in hip hop, but

[00:23:42] also in spoken word poetry quite a bit.

[00:23:44] Sure.

[00:23:45] So if you want to make the connection that hip hop is a form of poetry, which I think

[00:23:50] it is, we see the same things being used to like in terms of enunciation and how you

[00:23:58] shape a phrase.

[00:23:59] And I think that that's really neat, like to make those connections to multiple genres

[00:24:03] from like a historical perspective of how this genre of modern hip hop has evolved from like

[00:24:09] dance hall and even bringing in spoken word poetry, bringing in opera.

[00:24:12] It all informs what we're hearing.

[00:24:15] I think that's cool.

[00:24:33] None of this is new.

[00:24:34] People use leaps as emphasis all the time.

[00:24:38] If you want to emphasize a word, you can do it by making it louder.

[00:24:41] You can do it by making it higher and leaps help you get higher.

[00:24:45] Right.

[00:24:46] But this song just does it on another level.

[00:24:48] I play you the verse.

[00:24:49] It's all a bunch of leaps.

[00:24:51] I play you the pre-chorus.

[00:24:52] Just a bunch of leaps.

[00:24:53] What about that hook?

[00:25:06] So this is interesting because we start with this big leap.

[00:25:09] Ladies, leave your men.

[00:25:10] But then they go up a half step.

[00:25:12] And so we get this actually close but kind of crunchy note.

[00:25:18] Right.

[00:25:19] And so it goes to stepwise on that really kind of haunting note.

[00:25:23] And then we have leaps, but it's those last lines.

[00:25:26] And this is what I find funny is the words jump and jumping are not jumping.

[00:25:31] They're one of the only things in the entire song that's stepping, stepping.

[00:25:38] Stepping, stepping down the scale.

[00:25:40] Do you lose sleep over that?

[00:25:41] Does that bother you?

[00:25:42] Do I?

[00:25:43] I actually love it.

[00:25:44] Yeah.

[00:25:44] Because that's the catchy part of the song.

[00:25:47] Everybody knows jumping, jumping.

[00:25:49] They don't know.

[00:25:54] So let's make it hot, hot or whatever the words are.

[00:25:56] I don't know the words.

[00:25:57] I don't know the words in part because it's harder to remember stuff that's super leapy.

[00:26:02] Right?

[00:26:02] It stands out and it really is compelling.

[00:26:05] But everybody knows jumping, jumping.

[00:26:07] And it's because of that scale.

[00:26:09] I think the irony of the fact that the words jump and jumping are among the only notes in

[00:26:14] the entire song that aren't jumping, jumping is wonderful.

[00:26:17] Is there an aesthetic balance they've lost by having everything be jumping?

[00:26:21] It doesn't matter.

[00:26:21] They've gained something with the flip there.

[00:26:24] And it stands out because it's different.

[00:26:26] And we know through the study of how memories are formed that things that are different often

[00:26:32] are more cohesive memories because it breaks the status quo.

[00:26:36] And that's why the song is so unique and it stands out to people because it breaks the convention

[00:26:41] of what we're used to when we think of hip hop from this time.

[00:26:44] Right.

[00:26:45] Or certainly pop from this time, right?

[00:26:47] Yes.

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:48] Because we've trained to think, you know, Say My Name.

[00:26:50] That's more of a song in the traditional sense.

[00:26:53] She's in this tune.

[00:26:55] Beyonce's singing along with the synthesizers.

[00:26:57] Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

[00:26:59] Let me play that again.

[00:27:00] Is there a cat?

[00:27:00] Do you have a cat version?

[00:27:01] There's a cat.

[00:27:02] Listen to the...

[00:27:02] Well, this might as well be a cat.

[00:27:04] Do you?

[00:27:09] And now you...

[00:27:09] Hear that sentence?

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:10] It's chirping along with her.

[00:27:12] It's not...

[00:27:12] It's almost ham-fisted, right?

[00:27:14] It's not as elegant a melody as Say My Name, but it's so compelling and it does stand out

[00:27:19] as so different.

[00:27:20] So I don't know.

[00:27:21] Do you want to...

[00:27:21] Whether we're talking about a song standing out different or just notes differentiating

[00:27:27] themselves by one of them being much higher or much lower than the other.

[00:27:30] What is it about our brain?

[00:27:32] Is it making sure there isn't a tiger in the grass about to attack us?

[00:27:35] Are we more receptive to sudden differences and contrast?

[00:27:39] No, I think we remember sudden differences more.

[00:27:43] And maybe we are more receptive to them because they're unexpected and it breaks the paradigm

[00:27:47] we have in our head.

[00:27:49] Even if you don't know music, you have an expectation of what the song is going to sound like based

[00:27:55] on the notes that you're hearing.

[00:27:56] You know it's going to go somewhere specifically because you've heard music before and you

[00:28:00] know even intuitively what the next note should be.

[00:28:04] So when it breaks against that intuition, it does surprise us and makes it stand out

[00:28:08] more.

[00:28:08] But also our brains remember things that are different because of, you know, not to get

[00:28:14] too nerdy.

[00:28:15] But at the end, when we go to sleep every night, your brain kind of washes itself clean

[00:28:20] of clutter.

[00:28:21] So you can remember new things the next day.

[00:28:24] And it usually discards things that we've heard or seen or observed, whatever, before.

[00:28:33] Almost if you think of your brain like a computer to clean up storage so you have more storage

[00:28:37] capacity for the next day.

[00:28:39] And we do this by delta waves sleeping through our brain while we sleep.

[00:28:42] They act as like a dishwasher for our brain or a washing machine for our brain to clear

[00:28:46] the clutter.

[00:28:47] So when things are unique and different, your brain doesn't wash it away.

[00:28:51] It has it stick around.

[00:28:53] So that's why you'll always remember this line of this song for probably for a couple

[00:28:57] of reasons, but you'll remember because it is different and broke from what you expected

[00:29:01] it to be.

[00:29:03] And that is a function.

[00:29:04] I'm not sure if evolutionary to protect us from the tiger in the grass, but it definitely

[00:29:09] helps us form unique experiences because we remember things that are unique and different

[00:29:14] with greater frequency and with more accurate recall than things that are consistently the

[00:29:19] same.

[00:29:20] This is really interesting.

[00:29:21] Isn't there also, you know, like people have patterns of behavior, for example.

[00:29:25] And so my mom thinks certain things about me from when I was 15 years old.

[00:29:30] I could have 20 years of totally different behavior.

[00:29:33] And she might still be like, oh, Mark, you know him never doing laundry.

[00:29:37] And I'm like, mom, I've been doing my own laundry for 30 years.

[00:29:39] Like my family thinks that I lose my keys all the time because when I was a teenager, I lost

[00:29:44] my keys a lot.

[00:29:45] And they'll still be like, oh, Nicole always loses her keys.

[00:29:48] And I've had it's been it's been 25 years since I've lost.

[00:29:50] So how does that fit in?

[00:29:52] Because that almost feels like that the differences get ignored.

[00:29:55] Our parents are washing away the new data.

[00:30:00] How does that fit in with this?

[00:30:01] Because we your parents have established a paradigm, a schema of marks and marks don't

[00:30:06] do their laundry.

[00:30:07] Right.

[00:30:08] And it's hard to form new schemas of things.

[00:30:12] They've stereotyped you as an individual, someone that doesn't do their laundry or me as someone

[00:30:16] that loses things.

[00:30:16] I don't anymore.

[00:30:18] But when they were building the schemas of who you are as a human, that was a big piece

[00:30:23] of that puzzle.

[00:30:24] So it's now it's stuck in there in their brain, like in actually the white matter of their brain

[00:30:29] has learned this information.

[00:30:31] And when we learn new information, the more it's reinforced, the deeper it embeds in our

[00:30:37] brain.

[00:30:37] So you can look at fMRI scans of people learning things and the outer limits, the outer regions

[00:30:42] of their brain, the gray matter gets really activated.

[00:30:45] But as you learn it and you reinforce and you hear it again and again, that memory and that

[00:30:50] knowledge travels deeper into the white matter of their brain towards the center.

[00:30:54] So when you first didn't do laundry, it was just like out in the gray matter of their

[00:30:58] brain and then the second, third, fourth, fifth, a hundredth time it like embedded deeper

[00:31:02] and deeper.

[00:31:03] And it's harder to root out those memories once they're so deeply embedded.

[00:31:07] That's why for music, if you learned how to play the saxophone and then you have to switch

[00:31:12] and play an instrument that's in a different key with a different like fingering structure

[00:31:16] or whatever you would call it, it's hard for you to do because you've learned it one way.

[00:31:21] It's really hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

[00:31:24] I had to retrain myself how to hold a pick when I was in my 20s when I realized,

[00:31:28] wait, you don't all hold it with three fingers?

[00:31:31] And it was hard.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:33] And that's not just the way your brain wraps around it and you're like...

[00:31:37] A guitar pick, by the way, in case anybody knows, like an ice pick.

[00:31:40] No, I think we get it.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:42] All right.

[00:31:42] So you have something called neuroplasticity in our brain.

[00:31:45] Everyone does.

[00:31:46] That the more you do something, the more your brain forms around that action.

[00:31:51] They say that neurons that fire together wire together.

[00:31:55] And this is why our brains can keep changing and growing over time.

[00:31:58] So you learned to hold a guitar pick a certain way or a bass pick or whatever.

[00:32:03] And your brain formed around that concept.

[00:32:06] So then to relearn it, you're not just retraining your brain,

[00:32:09] but you're retraining your whole nervous system to like hold the pick a different way,

[00:32:13] to stand a different way.

[00:32:15] You're retraining everything.

[00:32:15] And that can be very, very challenging because it's already been so rooted in that,

[00:32:21] you know, a memory that you learned yesterday one time is easy to forget.

[00:32:24] But something that you've been reinforced over and over and over again is harder.

[00:32:28] That's why as educators, you might find yourself repeating yourself a lot.

[00:32:32] And say I say the same thing over and over and over to my students

[00:32:36] because I want them to remember it 10 years from now, not just for the test.

[00:32:40] So how does that fit in here, though?

[00:32:42] Because it feels like that's the opposite almost of the idea that you will notice something that's

[00:32:46] different.

[00:32:47] Yeah, you notice something different because you formed those deep rooted connections in

[00:32:52] your brain for things that are consistent.

[00:32:55] So when something's different, your brain picks up like, what is this different motif?

[00:32:59] Right.

[00:32:59] I haven't heard this before.

[00:33:01] This is new.

[00:33:01] This is challenging my mental schema that I've really established about what lyrically,

[00:33:07] what are we calling this pop or R&B can be.

[00:33:11] So whether you remember it and internalize it is a different matter, right?

[00:33:16] Right.

[00:33:16] Because like you mentioned the word stereotypes, there's the classic negative and positive

[00:33:21] stereotypes people have of racial groups or genders and stuff.

[00:33:24] And then they have constant data all the time opposing those stereotypes and showing them,

[00:33:30] no, this person doesn't fit that.

[00:33:31] But that doesn't always stick.

[00:33:33] Yeah.

[00:33:34] People still retain the old schema.

[00:33:36] And it's also like there's implicit and explicit.

[00:33:39] Like you might implicitly or subconsciously know that, oh, I like the song.

[00:33:46] It's different.

[00:33:46] Right.

[00:33:47] That's what I say.

[00:33:48] Because I don't have the schemas developed that you do.

[00:33:51] You hear the song and be like, oh, I explicitly like the song.

[00:33:54] It's so different because they're using this convention.

[00:33:58] You do have the schemas.

[00:34:00] You just don't have the nomenclature.

[00:34:02] I don't have the language for it.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:03] Yeah.

[00:34:03] Not yet.

[00:34:03] Which is different.

[00:34:04] Not yet.

[00:34:05] Yeah, that's right.

[00:34:06] Growth mindset.

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:07] We're recording a podcast episode in which you are developing the names for that.

[00:34:11] Yeah.

[00:34:11] And it's working.

[00:34:12] Right.

[00:34:13] And now I'm bringing these memories or, you know, moving deeper and deeper into my brain

[00:34:18] and forming and solidifying.

[00:34:19] So now the next time I go see a musical, I know that it's called whatever was that Italian

[00:34:26] word that you just said that I...

[00:34:27] Recitative.

[00:34:28] Recitative.

[00:34:29] Right.

[00:34:29] Now I'll be able to say that.

[00:34:31] Well, it's funny too because I get to sit on my throne and be like, oh, I understand why

[00:34:36] this song is good.

[00:34:36] I understand why that song is bad.

[00:34:38] What I'm learning is like, no, there's actually a reason why behind...

[00:34:42] It's not the music.

[00:34:43] The music theory or the songwriting is not the reason.

[00:34:45] The brain thing is the reason those things work.

[00:34:49] Like, why does that note sound tense?

[00:34:51] Because our ears interpret that sequence of frequencies combined in a certain way.

[00:34:58] Like it all goes deeper.

[00:35:00] Yeah.

[00:35:00] Like we both know it's good.

[00:35:02] Right.

[00:35:03] You just can talk about it with greater ease or more academically.

[00:35:07] The music side only.

[00:35:09] Right.

[00:35:09] Not the...

[00:35:10] And I'm like, oh no, this is...

[00:35:11] This song's awesome.

[00:35:12] Because there isn't a lot of like...

[00:35:13] I'm not...

[00:35:14] I didn't study acoustics specifically.

[00:35:15] Right.

[00:35:16] I know about acoustics, but I don't know psychoacoustics, how it affects the brain.

[00:35:20] I didn't study psychology and brain development.

[00:35:23] So there isn't a lot of deep...

[00:35:25] If you read like a music theory textbook, there's a lot of...

[00:35:28] Here's why something is.

[00:35:30] But not a lot of.

[00:35:31] And here's why that is why it is.

[00:35:32] Yeah.

[00:35:33] I could talk maybe on a mini episode or something about how there's history, why we use these

[00:35:38] scales.

[00:35:38] And a lot of it might even be white supremacy and things like that.

[00:35:41] And we can get into that.

[00:35:42] But still, even that isn't getting to the brain of it all.

[00:35:47] Like that's the history and the culture.

[00:35:48] And those things are important.

[00:35:49] But it doesn't necessarily get at some of these other things we're touching on.

[00:35:54] Anyways.

[00:35:55] You're talking about ecological variables is what you're talking about.

[00:35:58] Interesting.

[00:35:58] The time and place that your brain grows.

[00:36:01] Right.

[00:36:02] And that matters, especially with consumed art and culture.

[00:36:05] Yes.

[00:36:05] Absolutely.

[00:36:05] It matters.

[00:36:06] Maybe we come back to that one.

[00:36:07] Sure.

[00:36:07] All right.

[00:36:07] So wrapping up on this song.

[00:36:09] I thought it was just pretty cool that a song called Jumpin' Jumpin' uses 300% more Jumpin'

[00:36:15] Jumpin' than any other song, including by this group.

[00:36:18] I just love this whole album.

[00:36:20] It has a lot of feminist anthems to it.

[00:36:25] Every Destiny's Child song that you've played in this episode has the theme of female empowerment,

[00:36:31] has the theme of you can do it on your own.

[00:36:32] You don't need someone to support you, which I think was really great as a female that came

[00:36:38] up kind of with Destiny's Child to have those messages because they didn't really exist a lot

[00:36:44] of places from my perspective, which is why I secretly listened to them because it made me

[00:36:48] feel powerful.

[00:36:50] And I think that that's really great, just generally.

[00:36:55] That's my final thought on Destiny's Child.

[00:36:57] I think that the 90s, there's a lot of musical movements happening in the 90s that were great

[00:37:04] for showcasing, like, I think, Lil' Fair stuff.

[00:37:07] Sure.

[00:37:08] All that.

[00:37:08] You know, all the multitude of singer-songwriters that became big or pop singers, that was,

[00:37:14] you know, a bit of a switch away from the early 90s grunge and gangster rap that was

[00:37:20] very male-dominated.

[00:37:22] And it's interesting, too, because they were under the thumb of Beyonce's dad.

[00:37:26] Right.

[00:37:26] For management.

[00:37:28] And even later when Beyonce went solo, she was still very much thought of subservient to

[00:37:33] Jay-Z.

[00:37:35] And only more recently has she kind of reclaimed her identity, I think, as like a strong female

[00:37:42] voice that doesn't need support of a male partner.

[00:37:45] Well, like post-lemonade and stuff like that.

[00:37:47] Which was iconic.

[00:37:48] But listeners, write in.

[00:37:49] I mean, we don't know.

[00:37:50] Tell us for real.

[00:37:51] Did you go to clubs when you were this age?

[00:37:54] Like, what would this be?

[00:37:55] When you were like, well, 21 for sure.

[00:37:58] But were you like a club kid?

[00:37:59] I actually have to say, I went to clubs more before I was 21.

[00:38:04] I went to clubs more when I was in college.

[00:38:07] There were 18 and up clubs that would play like hipster kind of pop dance music fun, like

[00:38:12] 80s music and stuff.

[00:38:13] I found myself going to like San Francisco clubs that were 18 and up more frequently than

[00:38:18] once I turned 21.

[00:38:19] I went, you know, sometimes, but I was never like totally a fiend for the clubs.

[00:38:24] I, frankly, just too broke.

[00:38:26] I was too broke.

[00:38:27] People like, oh, how many shows did you go to?

[00:38:29] Ah, I don't know, man.

[00:38:31] Shows cost money, especially in that era.

[00:38:33] They started getting more expensive.

[00:38:35] How many guitars do you have?

[00:38:36] I don't know.

[00:38:37] Guitars are expensive, at least relative to non-musical instruments they are.

[00:38:42] Yeah.

[00:38:42] What about you?

[00:38:43] Were you ever a club rat?

[00:38:45] No, I wouldn't say it was a club rat.

[00:38:47] I would go to clubs and like much of my early 20s, I would go to clubs or like big house

[00:38:54] parties that had a club vibe to it and just think how long, how much longer do I have

[00:38:59] to pretend to be having fun at these things before I can like age out.

[00:39:03] I was very eager, honestly, to get to the point of life I am now that I don't have to

[00:39:08] pretend that I'm having fun at those places.

[00:39:09] But there was a moment, yeah, you have to go and you have to wear the outfits and you

[00:39:13] have to pretend to have fun at like the purple shamrock.

[00:39:16] If you know, you know.

[00:39:17] No, I don't know.

[00:39:17] But look, I can't escape the fact like I met my wife.

[00:39:21] I was 19 years old when I met her and we started dating.

[00:39:24] Well, we didn't get married for quite a number of years.

[00:39:26] But the main purpose that 20 somethings might go to a club was not exactly the reason that

[00:39:34] I would have been.

[00:39:34] I went to a club when we felt, oh, let's go dancing.

[00:39:37] It was not the same function that it has maybe when you have a single life.

[00:39:41] I did not have much of a single life after after my late teens.

[00:39:46] Thank goodness.

[00:39:46] Thank goodness for that.

[00:39:48] Everyone in the song is rich, too.

[00:39:51] Everyone's getting their nails done, wearing fancy shoes, like getting their car washed

[00:39:55] in the video or you just mean.

[00:39:56] No, if you read the lyrics, the lyrics like who are these people?

[00:39:59] Ladies, leave your man at home.

[00:40:01] The club is full of ballers.

[00:40:02] Yeah, the club is full of ballers and their pockets full grown, a wallet.

[00:40:06] There's something.

[00:40:06] Yeah, something like that.

[00:40:07] Yeah, they are loaded.

[00:40:08] And but I feel like so are they.

[00:40:11] So are the women.

[00:40:12] They're getting.

[00:40:12] Yeah, they get your nails done, put on your Louboutins, like get your car washed.

[00:40:16] And they say the men should get their car washed and put like a good suit on like they're

[00:40:19] all.

[00:40:20] Yeah.

[00:40:20] And we're talking about our experience.

[00:40:22] Like I was quite too broke when I was too broke to do anything.

[00:40:25] I was like eating cereal every day.

[00:40:27] But it's aspirational, right?

[00:40:29] I guess it is.

[00:40:30] And I think that that's a big part of it.

[00:40:33] This about this anthem here of female empowerment is like you can have it all.

[00:40:38] And that's just not true.

[00:40:39] Oh, no.

[00:40:41] So.

[00:40:43] Okay, Nicole, let's do the outro stuff, except it's recitative.

[00:40:47] Go.

[00:40:48] Never mind.

[00:40:48] The music is hosted by me, Mark Poppeny, who also produces.

[00:40:53] And Nicole Vatcher.

[00:40:54] I'm not doing that.

[00:40:56] Please be sure.

[00:40:57] All right.

[00:40:57] Let us know what you think on social media.

[00:40:59] We're Never Music Pod on all major platforms.

[00:41:02] You can also email us at nevermusicpod at gmail.com.

[00:41:06] And every so often we'll do a mailbag episode where we'll answer all of your burning questions.

[00:41:11] And please be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review.

[00:41:16] Thanks for listening.

[00:41:18] Okay.

[00:41:19] That's fine.

[00:41:20] Okay.