‘The Way You Move’ by Outkast and Mental Schema Progressions

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, Mark here. Just a quick heads up before we start the show. Pretty soon, Nicole and I are going to record our very first mailbag episode of Nevermind the Music. So please, send in your questions, your thoughts, your crazy ideas. We want to talk about them. To get in touch, send us an email at nevermusicpod at gmail.com. There's also a discussion about the podcast going on on the Lorehounds Discord server. If you don't already know, Nevermind the Music is part of the Lorehounds network.

[00:00:28] The folks at the Lorehounds have a bunch of really awesome podcasts, mostly about movies and TV. One awesome thing about the network is that they have their own Discord server, where listeners can discuss the podcast they're listening to. And yep, Nevermind the Music has our own channel, so you can also send us questions there. If you'd like to join the Discord server, go to discord.gg slash the Lorehounds. If you don't know what Discord is, just send us an email at nevermusicpod at gmail.com. We'll be recording in the middle of December.

[00:00:58] So get your thoughts in by then. Alright, on with the show.

[00:01:47] But you're like, more cognitive and I'm more intuitive. I think between the two of us.

[00:01:53] It's funny, like, you're looking at me going, thank God I'm not like him. And I'm like, oh my God, thank God I'm not like that.

[00:01:59] I know!

[00:01:59] That sounds like hell.

[00:02:00] And that's why, like, our brains are awesome, because they are, at the end of the day, the same lumps of matter.

[00:02:18] Hey, this is Nicole.

[00:02:19] This is Mark.

[00:02:20] And you're listening to Nevermind the Music.

[00:02:22] What are we talking about today, Mark?

[00:02:25] Outcast.

[00:02:26] I love Outcast.

[00:02:28] Hey Ya was my wedding song.

[00:02:29] Did you do it because it abruptly shifts from 4-4 time to 2-4 time?

[00:02:33] That's exactly it.

[00:02:34] I was like, that's so romantic.

[00:02:36] We're talking about The Way You Move from the same double album.

[00:02:55] So this is from 2003's Speakerbox, The Love Below.

[00:03:00] You chose as your wedding song, Hey Ya.

[00:03:03] But not the Outcast version.

[00:03:06] Wait, what?

[00:03:06] Do you have a string quartet playing it or something?

[00:03:08] No, it was like this version by a female singer-songwriter.

[00:03:12] Her name was Sarah Blasco.

[00:03:14] And it was just this really beautiful, like, guitar instrumental version of Hey Ya that my brother-in-law played.

[00:03:20] And then later that night, we went out to a bar and sang karaoke.

[00:03:24] And my husband and a bunch of his friends sang the Outcast version of Hey Ya.

[00:03:28] And now whenever we hear that, we, like, look at each other and, like, hug.

[00:03:32] Look at each other and shake it like a Polaroid picture.

[00:03:34] We just shake it.

[00:03:35] Shake it like a Polaroid picture.

[00:03:37] Do you have an affinity for The Love Below more so than Speakerbox?

[00:03:41] Do you know these albums?

[00:03:42] I don't really know them.

[00:03:43] Like, I know I like Outcast quite a bit.

[00:03:45] I love the energy.

[00:03:46] I love, like, the performance.

[00:03:47] It's kind of like a Bruno Mars-y performance vibe that I'm really into.

[00:03:51] Really theatrical.

[00:03:52] But I never, like, dove deep.

[00:03:54] I mean, 2003 when Speakerbox came out, like, I wasn't really into pop music that much.

[00:04:01] Except for the acoustic covers of Outcast.

[00:04:03] And, like, Dave Matthews Band.

[00:04:04] Right.

[00:04:04] Okay.

[00:04:05] Which is the same sort of niche as acoustic covers.

[00:04:08] It is.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:09] I mean, it's a real time and place here.

[00:04:11] So, yeah.

[00:04:12] I mean, check out these double albums.

[00:04:13] This is among the most necessary listening of double albums.

[00:04:17] We can come back to that maybe later.

[00:04:18] But Speakerbox, the first half.

[00:04:20] Listeners, many of you are rolling your eyes as I'm explaining this.

[00:04:23] But the first album is essentially a big boy solo album.

[00:04:26] And that's where The Way You Move comes from.

[00:04:28] And then The Love Below is an Andre 3000 solo album.

[00:04:31] They guest on each other's albums.

[00:04:34] But it's sort of like another iconic double album of the White Album.

[00:04:37] It's like the Beatles are practically going to break up.

[00:04:39] And so there's all these songs that only have two or one or three of them.

[00:04:44] And then it's spread out.

[00:04:45] It's almost like that.

[00:04:46] They weren't about to break up, but they wanted to do their own things.

[00:04:48] And instead, they chose probably commercially the right idea to still release it as an Outkast record.

[00:04:53] Yeah.

[00:04:53] It's like this alone togetherness.

[00:04:55] There's something cool about it.

[00:04:56] Like the idea that they were like, let's do solo albums, but still keep it within the Outkast brand.

[00:05:00] It's kind of like a marriage relationship.

[00:05:03] It's an open relationship, but they're going to keep each other.

[00:05:05] No, there are certain relationship models.

[00:05:07] They're all based on letters.

[00:05:08] Like you have an A model of relationship that the partners like need to lean on each other to be supported.

[00:05:15] It seems like in Outkast, there was what we call an H level relationship that the partners are like working parallel to each other, but they're connected by scaffolding them between.

[00:05:25] And I feel like my husband and I have an H relationship.

[00:05:28] Like we're individuals, but we're connected by family.

[00:05:31] And that's part of the reason we chose Outkast as a wedding song.

[00:05:35] Although you...

[00:05:36] It's not.

[00:05:36] It's not.

[00:05:37] Okay.

[00:05:37] It's just another reinforces...

[00:05:39] Right.

[00:05:40] ...the universe's choice.

[00:05:41] Check it out.

[00:05:42] I mean, the speaker box half is way more Southern hip hop, soul sort of electro.

[00:05:47] The love below is wild.

[00:05:48] There's literally a super sped up with a fast sample drumbeat version of the John Coltrane My Favorite Things.

[00:05:57] Oh.

[00:05:58] It's wild.

[00:05:59] Like it's jazzy.

[00:06:01] It's pop.

[00:06:01] It's hip hop.

[00:06:02] It's tons of stuff.

[00:06:03] So this specific song, the vocal hook we just heard, Sleepy Brown.

[00:06:08] Sleepy Brown, one of the members of the production team, organized noise.

[00:06:12] So a lot of the Atlanta artists have worked with them.

[00:06:17] So like TLC, tons of Outkast records.

[00:06:20] Also En Vogue, not from Atlanta.

[00:06:22] So there's lots of Outkast tunes that you're going to hear this guy's voice.

[00:06:26] So this track, though, and Hey Ya, both number one hits at the same time.

[00:06:31] So they're like kind of co-lead singles, which is another thing that's cool.

[00:06:35] You know, weirdly, most of the singles from this record do seem to be Andre-focused.

[00:06:38] Whether it's this one or Roses or Ghetto Music.

[00:06:42] But this one, more of a big boy feature.

[00:06:45] And it's interesting, too, that the bands that you just mentioned that working with the

[00:06:49] same team, like TLC and En Vogue and Andre 3000 and Outkast, they're all like really well-branded

[00:06:57] entities.

[00:06:58] And I wonder if there's a connection there.

[00:07:00] Like you, En Vogue is unmistakable, right?

[00:07:03] Sure.

[00:07:03] Like Outkast, like, you know, the sound, the imaging, like the brand surrounding them.

[00:07:08] Same with TLC.

[00:07:09] Like you can identify it.

[00:07:10] And I think that there's a formula there that clearly works.

[00:07:14] And I wonder if that, again, as always with me, I'm wondering if that was intentional or

[00:07:17] if it was just like part of how things happen.

[00:07:21] Yeah, I mean, we can come back to the other artists later, but I think there was a sort

[00:07:26] of team mentality associated with organized noise.

[00:07:29] The Dungeon family, they called it, where they would all record in this basement studio

[00:07:33] that maybe had a kind of focus to the identity, like associated identity.

[00:07:40] I don't know how much TLC was really associated with that.

[00:07:42] I think that might have been more of just a production credit thing as opposed to the

[00:07:47] history of Outkast and organized noise is definitely intertwined.

[00:07:51] in a way that might not be true with these other artists because they came up like their

[00:07:55] earliest records were recorded in this basement studio, right?

[00:07:58] Before they were anybody.

[00:07:59] And when you look at organized noise production discography, it is all Outkast.

[00:08:04] I mean, that's that's all you see.

[00:08:05] And one big boy album.

[00:08:07] Isn't there Tia?

[00:08:08] Oh, no, no.

[00:08:08] So yeah.

[00:08:09] So Sleepy Brown produced some of this other stuff, but not through organized noise.

[00:08:14] That's interesting.

[00:08:15] In any case, hit us up, Atlantans.

[00:08:18] Tell us where we're wrong.

[00:08:19] We're just some Yankees talking about Southern hip hop and organizational structures we know

[00:08:24] nothing about.

[00:08:25] Anyways, this song.

[00:08:26] I want to talk about what we could call implied harmony.

[00:08:31] Okay.

[00:08:32] So this is a hip hop track has a lot of rapping.

[00:08:36] Of course, there's not a lot of chords happening, but some of those are implied.

[00:08:42] Let's listen first just to the general beat.

[00:08:45] We're actually going to hear a lot more Sleepy Brown singing today than we're going to hear

[00:08:49] big boy rapping.

[00:08:50] But let's give props where it's due.

[00:08:52] Here's a verse of big boy and listen to what we have in the background.

[00:09:00] Not a lot there, right?

[00:09:01] No.

[00:09:02] We got a beat.

[00:09:02] We got a really simple bass note.

[00:09:05] Those three bass notes we hear, boom, boom, boom.

[00:09:07] They're not really giving us much information melodically, harmonically.

[00:09:12] It's all about the rap, right?

[00:09:14] And his flow in the song, it sounds so cool with there's double track layering happening.

[00:09:19] Like you hear him multiple times and it creates this really fat resonant sound, but there's

[00:09:24] not a lot changing, right?

[00:09:27] It sort of just sits there as this bed for him to rap on top.

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:30] Yeah, I am.

[00:09:32] But let's listen to the hook.

[00:09:49] And I think it's cool that like in the previous clip, the lyrics had a lot of modulation to

[00:09:54] it and a lot of like really cool enunciation that you see in more modern hip, not to say

[00:09:59] this isn't modern, but more present day hip hop.

[00:10:02] And now in this last clip, it's like reversed.

[00:10:06] The instrumental seems really detailed and nuanced and the vocals seem very, very simple.

[00:10:11] So it's a good like duality.

[00:10:13] Yeah.

[00:10:13] Right.

[00:10:13] So let's listen again to that.

[00:10:15] We'll listen to the end of the verse leading into it.

[00:10:18] And I want you to try to see what is changing, how much change and how much repeating is happening

[00:10:24] right now.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:45] If you're asking me what's changing, like so much changes there that I can't even,

[00:10:49] I feel consistency.

[00:10:51] Yeah.

[00:10:51] But I can't like pinpoint what's consistent about it.

[00:10:54] We get a lot of new elements, right?

[00:10:55] We have this cool percussion line happening.

[00:10:59] There's horns.

[00:11:00] There's guitar that comes in.

[00:11:02] There's backing vocals.

[00:11:03] There's lead vocals.

[00:11:04] But here's the thing.

[00:11:06] If we listen again, we'll listen just to a short fragment.

[00:11:09] Those bits just keep repeating.

[00:11:11] Sure.

[00:11:12] There's a lot of note density.

[00:11:14] There's a lot going on.

[00:11:15] But there's no like chord changes.

[00:11:18] It's just sort of repeating the same melodies over and over again.

[00:11:22] The same horn line, the same vocal line, etc.

[00:11:26] Except for one thing.

[00:11:27] And I'll get there in a second.

[00:11:36] Right?

[00:11:37] You hear things are just kind of repeating.

[00:11:56] But I know we've listened to this too many times and I'm going to have to edit some of

[00:11:59] these out.

[00:11:59] That's okay.

[00:12:00] What I want you to focus on is the one part that changes.

[00:12:04] There's one thing that changes.

[00:12:06] And it's, ah.

[00:12:09] Listen to Sleepy Brown's backing vocals and follow the chord progression of this song.

[00:12:16] A chord progression needs chords, right?

[00:12:19] Yes.

[00:12:19] We're not hearing chords.

[00:12:21] I mean, I guess technically we are because we're hearing a bunch of notes, but we're not

[00:12:24] hearing a chord progression.

[00:12:25] The instruments are basically just repeating themselves over and over again.

[00:12:29] But this one vocal line, it's also really quietly doubled by saxophones if you listen

[00:12:34] to the instrumental version.

[00:12:36] This, ah, this line, single part tells us enough information that our brain can fill

[00:12:42] in the rest.

[00:12:44] Take a listen specifically to the ah.

[00:13:03] Yeah, it's wild.

[00:13:04] It's just one note, but like it feels like it's not.

[00:13:07] Well, it changes a few times.

[00:13:08] It changes.

[00:13:09] Yeah, and goes up.

[00:13:10] And then at the end, it like brings it together.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:13] That's right.

[00:13:13] And all the other parts, parentheses, listeners, except for a really quiet guitar, all the

[00:13:20] other parts don't change.

[00:13:21] There is a little, when you listen to the instrumental sort of karaoke tracks of this,

[00:13:25] you can hear a really quiet acoustic guitar that is technically playing the chords.

[00:13:29] But other than that, you really only hear Sleepy's background vocal going, ah, changing.

[00:13:35] Everybody else just repeats.

[00:13:36] Wait.

[00:13:36] But that single line gives us enough information to bring out an entire chord progression.

[00:13:42] But we, as listeners, have to fill in the blanks.

[00:13:45] So here's the notes that he's singing sped up a little bit.

[00:13:53] Kind of unusual little turn at the end.

[00:13:55] Yeah, it's weird, huh?

[00:13:56] It's like, is that a minor?

[00:13:57] That feels like sad and dark.

[00:13:59] We're in a minor key.

[00:14:00] Yeah.

[00:14:00] We're in a minor key.

[00:14:01] And that last note is out of key in a way that's kind of fun.

[00:14:05] We don't need to get into it now.

[00:14:06] But what I will do, composer, songwriter that I am, I'm going to fill in those blanks and

[00:14:11] play what I'm kind of hearing those notes imply.

[00:14:14] They're not being played, but they're implied.

[00:14:29] Yeah.

[00:14:29] What our brain's doing here is actually like something that happens all day, every day

[00:14:34] in the magic of the three pound universe that like lives in our skull.

[00:14:38] And those chords aren't being played in the song.

[00:14:40] What if I put them in the song?

[00:14:59] You buy it?

[00:15:00] Does it sound right?

[00:15:01] No, it sounds like.

[00:15:02] Sounds wrong.

[00:15:03] It sounds like wrong and boring and like disengaging.

[00:15:08] So you disagree with what I'm hearing the implied harmony is or you just don't like that

[00:15:14] they're in there?

[00:15:14] I don't like the way it sounds with the chords added in.

[00:15:18] I like my brain filling in the blanks for me.

[00:15:21] Okay.

[00:15:21] Let's talk about the blanks being filled in.

[00:15:23] Now I have to say this is all subjective.

[00:15:25] That's the chord progression that my ear sticks on this.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:29] And I have a particular frame of mind as a musician.

[00:15:32] I really want to hear that stupid flat six going to five.

[00:15:36] Yeah.

[00:15:37] Happening.

[00:15:37] I get it.

[00:15:38] At the end that other people might think, oh, that's too much of a stretch.

[00:15:42] That's too much information Mark's throwing on it.

[00:15:44] So my brain is filling things in based on my experiences.

[00:15:47] What's going on here?

[00:15:49] Okay.

[00:15:49] You just really hit it, right?

[00:15:51] That your brain is filling things in based on your experiences.

[00:15:55] And my brain is making maybe different inferences based on my experiences.

[00:16:00] So what is going on?

[00:16:02] Our brain is, when all is said and done, a three pound mass that sits inside a calcified

[00:16:12] dome that sits on top of our spinal cord.

[00:16:15] Like that is our brain, right?

[00:16:16] The miracle of life.

[00:16:17] The miracle of life.

[00:16:18] This three pound universe, right?

[00:16:20] Made up of all of these lobes and synapses and neural oscillations, which is just a very

[00:16:26] fancy way to say brain waves that are like giving us information and giving us input.

[00:16:32] But like, it's not just doing one thing all the time.

[00:16:35] Our brains are doing a million things every second.

[00:16:38] So I'm listening through this outcast song.

[00:16:41] It's going into my ears and getting transferred into my brain and getting coded and making

[00:16:46] inferences.

[00:16:47] Also, I'm noticing how the room feels around me.

[00:16:50] I'm, my body is breathing.

[00:16:53] My heart is beating.

[00:16:54] I'm also listening to you, but thinking of something else.

[00:16:57] I'm noticing a biological need that I need to eat food soon, right?

[00:17:01] All of these things are happening in my brain while I'm thinking of these chords, right?

[00:17:07] That is effortless.

[00:17:09] We don't have this high level of metacognition that we need to think about thinking.

[00:17:13] We just think about it.

[00:17:15] I've listened to the song hundreds of times.

[00:17:17] I've never thought, oh, he's not playing the full chord.

[00:17:22] Right.

[00:17:22] I just think, wow, what a great song.

[00:17:24] I like this song, right?

[00:17:26] Because our brains are doing that work for us.

[00:17:29] You're thinking of things in a completely different way because of your background and experience,

[00:17:33] right?

[00:17:33] So you're thinking, oh, what do you say?

[00:17:36] Like the minor fifth or whatever.

[00:17:38] Like, I don't even know that jargon, right?

[00:17:40] But my brain is still doing it in a different way.

[00:17:43] So all this to say, our brains are busy and we don't have time to sit and isolate everything.

[00:17:49] And it's finding shortcuts for us.

[00:17:52] So it's making these inferences to kind of keep the process going.

[00:17:58] And we're filling the gaps based on our experiences because we formed what's called a mental schema

[00:18:04] about certain chords.

[00:18:06] You hear the root note of a chord, your mental schema fills out the whole chord because you've

[00:18:11] trained your brain to do that.

[00:18:12] Well, you've heard songs in minor keys before.

[00:18:14] You've heard vaguely sort of Latin beats pasted on top of a hip hop beat before.

[00:18:20] Your brain's making up the difference, so to speak.

[00:18:23] Yes.

[00:18:23] Right.

[00:18:24] And it allows you to process complex music without really thinking about it.

[00:18:29] You just experience the music, right?

[00:18:31] There's a reason that kids' songs are really simplified because a kid's mental schemas

[00:18:37] aren't developed enough to fill in those blanks.

[00:18:40] We're training it.

[00:18:41] They would have to work too hard to understand it, right?

[00:18:43] And it wouldn't be enjoyable to them.

[00:18:44] Sure.

[00:18:45] Right?

[00:18:45] And OutKast is really smart with the way they produce because they're making music that's

[00:18:50] enjoyable to so many audiences because it's allowing our brains to find our comfort level.

[00:18:55] And you can listen to this and get really deep about chords and Latin roots or whatever.

[00:19:01] And I listen to it and I don't have that same experience, but we both enjoy it.

[00:19:05] And that's actually like, it's very, very smart music making.

[00:19:08] Though, to be fair, like listen to Spread or something on that record and there's like

[00:19:12] crazy free jazz solos and stuff.

[00:19:14] So yeah.

[00:19:15] Not for everybody.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:16] I think you hated it when I put those chords in and I don't love the arrangement there,

[00:19:22] but I think there is a less is more, right?

[00:19:24] More information wouldn't be helpful.

[00:19:25] But what if you took out that backing vocal line?

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:29] Without that, then we have no implication of harmony at all.

[00:19:34] We have harmony that is just static.

[00:19:36] And I think this feels like a song in the chorus.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:40] It doesn't feel like just hip hop groove.

[00:19:43] It feels like there's a song like character to it, obviously, right?

[00:19:45] A pop song element.

[00:19:47] There's a humanistic element to it.

[00:19:49] Oh, that's interesting.

[00:19:49] Humanistic.

[00:19:50] Okay.

[00:19:50] So it's that subtle change.

[00:19:52] The idea of a shifting chord progression feels more pop song to me than no chord progression

[00:19:57] at all.

[00:19:58] And so maybe they thought the arrangement was too cluttered by having actual chords.

[00:20:02] But if we have this backing vocal line with double by the saxes, we can imply the chords

[00:20:08] and I guess like trust the listener to go with us on the journey.

[00:20:12] Maybe.

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:12] I mean, that's what I'd like to think.

[00:20:14] Right.

[00:20:14] This idea that we're adding and layering our personal experience onto any type of music we

[00:20:20] listen to.

[00:20:21] Right.

[00:20:21] Right.

[00:20:21] And I, you know, we have emotional connections and emotional memories based on music, which

[00:20:25] are very explicit that I hear this song and I think of my wedding day.

[00:20:30] Right.

[00:20:30] You're never going to have that connection.

[00:20:32] But that's mine.

[00:20:33] Right.

[00:20:34] But we also have implicit connections that are connections we don't have to actively think

[00:20:39] about, that we don't recall memories on our visual spatial sketch pad of our brain.

[00:20:44] Like we just, you just know it.

[00:20:47] It's like in you.

[00:20:48] And that's trained through the development of mental schemas and paradigms.

[00:20:52] And yours are more developed than mine about music because of the work that you do.

[00:20:57] Because I overthink also.

[00:20:58] Well, so, you know, maybe.

[00:21:00] But yeah, I've heard a lot of music and I have to think about it.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:04] Exactly.

[00:21:05] And listeners, in case you're wondering, it does not ruin the experience.

[00:21:07] I enjoy music more than all of you because.

[00:21:11] Yeah, no, that's subjective, obviously.

[00:21:14] So, okay.

[00:21:16] This is not the only song that does this.

[00:21:18] This idea of implied harmony, though, instead of real harmony, is pretty uncommon, I would say.

[00:21:25] But it's not unique here.

[00:21:26] You might have a bass line that changes.

[00:21:29] And whenever that bass line changes, it's giving you so much information that tells us what the

[00:21:34] core progression is.

[00:21:35] So we could almost say, even if you just have a bass part that's going along on different

[00:21:39] notes, you're already giving way more information than this song is giving.

[00:21:43] Because this bass line just goes boom, boom, boom.

[00:21:46] Over and over and over again.

[00:21:48] So a lot of songs have at least a bass line that tells us more information.

[00:21:52] And bass lines often feel very implicit, unless you're a bass player.

[00:21:56] And then you think, wow, that's a great bass line.

[00:21:59] But usually I never think of like, oh, wow, let me really focus on the bass line of the song.

[00:22:04] It just is there.

[00:22:05] I feel like people don't know they're hearing the bass line sometimes until you point it out

[00:22:10] to them.

[00:22:10] They think it's a guitar or something, but it's there and you don't feel or you don't

[00:22:15] perceive it as much because it's not in front.

[00:22:17] And if it wasn't there, you'd be like, this song is weird.

[00:22:20] It's very empty, right?

[00:22:20] It's not grounded.

[00:22:21] And some of that would be just the overall frequency spectrum, but some of that might

[00:22:25] be the chord progression is gone.

[00:22:27] But and some songs obviously don't have chord changes at all.

[00:22:30] Like if you listen to funk or whatever, the chord might be the same for five minutes.

[00:22:33] So putting those tunes aside, when do we have a song that has chords without playing the

[00:22:41] chords?

[00:22:41] That's what we're looking for.

[00:22:42] Let me give you an example.

[00:22:44] So this is Killing Me Softly with his song.

[00:22:47] 1972.

[00:22:47] Here's the original version.

[00:22:49] Charles Fox and Norman Gimbel.

[00:22:51] Shout out Charles Fox.

[00:22:52] Took a class with him back in my grad school days.

[00:22:55] Way to go.

[00:22:55] This is the Roberta Flack original popular recording.

[00:22:58] So good.

[00:23:11] You know, I don't think a lot of people realize that that isn't a Fuji song.

[00:23:15] Well, we're going to talk about the Fuji.

[00:23:17] Yeah.

[00:23:17] So people of a certain age maybe don't know about the original, but that song had chords,

[00:23:23] right?

[00:23:23] We've got bass, we've got backup guitar.

[00:23:25] I think there's keyboards in there.

[00:23:26] There's a chord progression happening like a regular self-respecting pop song would have.

[00:23:31] And then we fast forward to the Fuji's version from 1996.

[00:23:35] No chords, not even bass for a lot of it.

[00:23:38] But we still hear the chords.

[00:23:41] They are implied by Lauryn Hill's vocal line.

[00:23:58] Obviously, the bass comes in there.

[00:24:00] Sure.

[00:24:01] And they give like little clues.

[00:24:03] That's right.

[00:24:03] Right?

[00:24:04] Like little small redirections for your mind.

[00:24:07] That's right.

[00:24:07] Especially a stranger to my eyes when she's going up there.

[00:24:12] And it's just like two little moments.

[00:24:15] Put these little lampposts for the listener of like where their ears supposed to go.

[00:24:19] That's right.

[00:24:21] And obviously, this is a song that many people would have maybe heard the original.

[00:24:25] So those chords might be in your ear.

[00:24:28] But I heard this version before I heard the Roberta Flack version, at least consciously.

[00:24:32] And it does like it's if you had heard the Roberta Flack version, it makes Lauryn Hill's

[00:24:37] version very easy to listen to because you've established a mental schema about this song

[00:24:44] that you know implicitly what it's supposed to sound like.

[00:24:47] That's interesting.

[00:24:48] That's like jazz bands might play a song you've heard a thousand times, but they do

[00:24:51] it in a new way, changing every little note about it.

[00:24:55] But they're relying on you knowing the song well enough that you can still hang on for

[00:24:59] your life.

[00:25:00] And that's why jazz is so exciting because you think you know what's coming next, but

[00:25:05] they switch it up on you.

[00:25:06] And that's why you watch people that know jazz listen to jazz and they get physically

[00:25:11] excited.

[00:25:11] And you're sitting there like, what are they?

[00:25:14] When there's a surprise.

[00:25:15] Yes.

[00:25:15] Right.

[00:25:15] Because we have these paradigms in place.

[00:25:17] Right.

[00:25:18] Here we're talking specifically about the chords behind or not behind, but theoretically any

[00:25:24] element of music could do that.

[00:25:25] Right.

[00:25:25] We could take, I guess, the schema somebody has and use that as a jumping off point.

[00:25:31] One more example.

[00:25:32] 2013, One Republic, the tune Counting Stars.

[00:25:35] In the beginning of the song, we have a chord progression, but then the vocal lands on a

[00:25:42] note that doesn't have a chord, but that note gives us the chord.

[00:25:47] It gives us the chord that we would later in the song, we will hear the instruments play,

[00:25:53] but we're not hearing it there.

[00:25:54] But we have all the information we need from that single vocal note.

[00:25:58] Baby, I've been, I've been praying hard.

[00:26:02] Said no more counting dollars.

[00:26:04] We'll be counting stars.

[00:26:07] Yeah, we'll be counting stars.

[00:26:11] I like never knew I was doing that.

[00:26:15] When you play these songs and you say like, think of how simple the song is.

[00:26:19] Like in my head, the song is very, very nuanced.

[00:26:21] I think the lyrics are really dynamic.

[00:26:23] And like, I always think of this musically as a really intricate song, but then I listen

[00:26:28] to it now.

[00:26:29] And I'm like, it's not.

[00:26:30] That's just my, my brain's putting those pieces together, which is really, really cool.

[00:26:35] Way to go brain.

[00:26:36] Yeah.

[00:26:37] I think your brain's doing heavy lifting and it makes it satisfying.

[00:26:40] Yeah, for sure.

[00:26:41] Especially once you know the song and then we can talk about the whole, we don't need

[00:26:44] to get into it, but the whole expectations being met.

[00:26:47] I mean, that's my favorite song, which I don't know what it would be right now, but whatever

[00:26:51] my favorite song in the moment is, I promise you it wasn't my favorite the first time I heard

[00:26:55] it.

[00:26:55] It's my favorite because now I can predict every little moment of it.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:58] Right.

[00:27:18] Okay.

[00:27:18] Let's check my work.

[00:27:20] Back to OutKast.

[00:27:21] This is me putting the bad sounding chord progression along with their chorus as I'm hearing

[00:27:29] the progression.

[00:27:30] Let's see if we can figure out whether I'm correct or not.

[00:27:32] Let's see if it feels dissonant to me.

[00:27:35] Right.

[00:27:35] Let's see if it's, and then we're going to, I'm going to give you more information from OutKast.

[00:27:38] Okay.

[00:27:55] To me, it makes sense.

[00:27:57] The only thing that doesn't is it's a piano.

[00:27:59] Well, okay.

[00:28:00] So, but like that's what I hear.

[00:28:02] The arrangement I'm presenting, I'm not advocating for the arrangement.

[00:28:05] I'm just trying to give the simplest possible representation and the piano is not a good

[00:28:10] fit because a piano and this kind of thing would need to be doing the Montuno, like the

[00:28:13] sort of salsa groove or the Cuban kind of groove.

[00:28:17] The second chord that you played didn't match for me.

[00:28:20] Didn't fit.

[00:28:20] No.

[00:28:21] It was too minor for me.

[00:28:23] That's interesting.

[00:28:23] So I had other ideas for what that chord could be.

[00:28:27] These are the ones that I stumbled upon, but I've obviously heard this song enough to know

[00:28:31] that this, where this was going.

[00:28:32] But after I figured out what my chord ideas would be, I listened more carefully to the

[00:28:37] bridge of this song where Sleepy Brown sings in harmony with himself.

[00:28:41] There's plenty of vocal harmonies in this song, but this is the only part where the harmonies

[00:28:46] actually seem to imply chords.

[00:28:49] So let's listen to the bridge section of this song and maybe we'll see if I'm correct or not.

[00:29:08] I think I'm right.

[00:29:10] I think you're right.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] So I was wrong.

[00:29:13] So I had this second to last chord that I did.

[00:29:24] I was overthinking it.

[00:29:25] It was too heavy.

[00:29:26] It's heavy.

[00:29:26] They just stay on the same old chord there.

[00:29:29] But what they have is a crunchier last chord.

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:32] That's a G augmented seven in the vocals, which wouldn't fit with the other sections of the

[00:29:38] song, interestingly.

[00:29:39] But there, there's a little clash happening.

[00:29:42] So mostly my brain was filling in too many pieces of information when in reality, they're

[00:29:49] just kind of chilling on one harmony until the very end of the section.

[00:29:52] And you know what?

[00:29:52] I do think experience matters and personality matters.

[00:29:57] I think between the two of us, you're going to overthink and I'm going to lean on the bright

[00:30:03] side.

[00:30:03] Would you say that that's true?

[00:30:05] Wait, is there a spectrum between the bright side?

[00:30:09] And like a spectrum between optimism and overthinking?

[00:30:12] I think that's a big question.

[00:30:15] I think people that overthink tend to be less optimistic because they've played out all of

[00:30:24] the bad things that could happen.

[00:30:25] That's interesting.

[00:30:26] More than someone that doesn't overthink.

[00:30:28] But also there's so much intersectionality to answer that question appropriately.

[00:30:32] Like there's so much like...

[00:30:33] I don't know.

[00:30:34] I mean, I feel like you could say a pessimist is constantly pleasantly surprised by the world

[00:30:38] and maybe actually happier, right?

[00:30:40] Well, maybe not overthinking.

[00:30:41] I think that between the two of us, you have more mental clutter than me.

[00:30:45] Oh, definitely.

[00:30:46] Right?

[00:30:47] Definitely.

[00:30:48] And maybe like bright side or overthink is the wrong jargon to use.

[00:30:51] But you're like more cognitive and I'm more intuitive.

[00:30:55] I think between the two of us.

[00:30:57] It's funny.

[00:30:58] Like you're looking at me going, thank God I'm not like him.

[00:31:00] And I'm like, oh my God, thank God I'm not like that.

[00:31:02] I know.

[00:31:03] That sounds like hell.

[00:31:04] And that's why like our brains are awesome because they are at the end of the day, the

[00:31:08] same lumps of matter.

[00:31:11] Filling in the blanks differently.

[00:31:12] We're so different.

[00:31:13] And it's like beautiful.

[00:31:14] Love it.

[00:31:15] Yeah.

[00:31:15] Me too.

[00:31:15] Okay.

[00:31:16] We were talking about double LPs.

[00:31:18] Is there anything there?

[00:31:18] Double LPs.

[00:31:19] Are there any double albums that you want to shout out?

[00:31:22] Double albums.

[00:31:23] Albums.

[00:31:24] Remember when like that used to be a thing, right?

[00:31:27] Well, you mean albums?

[00:31:28] I guess albums.

[00:31:29] And how like they would have an arc to them.

[00:31:31] Those are the days.

[00:31:32] In general, are you, if you heard your favorite group or not your favorite, because a favorite

[00:31:38] group is one that you're going to like dissect everything.

[00:31:41] So you'll give everything a chance.

[00:31:42] But you hear a group you really like or an artist you really like, you hear they've got

[00:31:48] a double album.

[00:31:49] Are you like sweet twice the content?

[00:31:51] Or are you like, oh no, twice the content, twice the filler?

[00:31:54] I think sweet twice the content because the people I listen to, I trust that if they're

[00:31:58] proud of it, I'm going to like it.

[00:31:59] Like, I'm not going to say I'm a huge Taylor.

[00:32:01] I like Taylor Swift.

[00:32:02] I think she's a great songwriter.

[00:32:04] And I've listened to a lot of her talk about her process and her creative process, which

[00:32:08] I think is really insightful.

[00:32:10] And I know that if she released a double album, there'd be no skips on that album.

[00:32:15] It'd be intentional.

[00:32:17] Intentional.

[00:32:17] It would be intentional.

[00:32:18] It would tell a story and have an arc because she prides herself as a songwriter.

[00:32:22] I think different artists, if they put a double album just to sell, and that would have filler.

[00:32:29] Higher price tag or whatever.

[00:32:30] Or like different art or, I mean, whatever.

[00:32:32] But no one's doing that anymore.

[00:32:34] No one's like releasing.

[00:32:35] Yeah.

[00:32:36] Not a lot of double albums anymore.

[00:32:37] Certainly they don't.

[00:32:38] They're not as widely known as double albums.

[00:32:41] I think.

[00:32:41] When was the last time you like went to Sam Goody and like bought an album?

[00:32:45] I tended to never go to Sam Goody personally.

[00:32:48] We talked about, I already shouted out Music Trader in earlier podcast.

[00:32:52] So Cal, we get it.

[00:32:54] I don't know.

[00:32:54] I, unless it's an artist that I am very, very trusting of, I tend to look at double albums

[00:33:03] with suspicion.

[00:33:04] Interesting.

[00:33:05] At that.

[00:33:06] I mean, look, I keep bringing up the Beatles.

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:08] I love the Beatles.

[00:33:10] Folks, half of the White Album would be probably the best Beatles album.

[00:33:15] The other mix of the other half of the White Album would be by far the worst Beatles album.

[00:33:20] Wild Honey Pie?

[00:33:22] No.

[00:33:22] Not Honey Pie.

[00:33:24] Honey Pie is fine.

[00:33:25] Wild Honey Pie.

[00:33:26] Sorry, Paul.

[00:33:27] I know you're listening.

[00:33:29] Sir Paul, I love you.

[00:33:30] That song is a joke.

[00:33:32] Why does that exist?

[00:33:34] But yet you couldn't, you know, release some of George's songs, right?

[00:33:37] Right.

[00:33:38] Talk about triple albums.

[00:33:40] That's a different thing.

[00:33:40] But so I guess I guess I've been traumatized by some double albums that feel a little masturbatory.

[00:33:46] I think that's what's so cool about about Speakerbox, The Love Below is they just said,

[00:33:50] we're going to make them two distinct things.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:53] And it's okay if they don't fit as a unit necessarily.

[00:33:56] We can tell two stories and justify the existence.

[00:34:02] I like a double album when it involves like a storytelling component or if it makes sense thematically.

[00:34:09] Like Pink Floyd's The Wall was a double album.

[00:34:11] Sure.

[00:34:12] That makes sense to me because it's like creating an arc and creating a narrative.

[00:34:16] And I think that some people put out double albums with like remixes or like other versions just to have a commodity for people.

[00:34:26] And I'm not into that.

[00:34:28] Nowadays, I feel like you're seeing that more common as the iTunes exclusive.

[00:34:33] Sure.

[00:34:33] Second deluxe version disc that's got live tracks and remixes.

[00:34:37] Or like vault tracks.

[00:34:38] I mean, Swift does like from the vault.

[00:34:40] Sure.

[00:34:40] And like re-release.

[00:34:41] And I think that's cool because that's saying this is a super fan.

[00:34:45] Whereas if you liked 1979 by the Smashing Pumpkins back in the 90s, and I think there's a lot of good on Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness.

[00:34:54] Yeah.

[00:34:54] But if you just wanted like that one track and you're going to spend the extra sticker price for that double album.

[00:35:02] Yeah.

[00:35:02] When you're not a super fan, you know.

[00:35:04] If you could pick who's your favorite, you like Big Boy or Andre 3000.

[00:35:08] Who's your man?

[00:35:09] I don't know.

[00:35:10] I know their differences are amplified.

[00:35:13] There's this image of Andre 3000 of this kind of like eccentric almost.

[00:35:18] Yeah, very theatrical.

[00:35:19] But I feel like they're both kind of like that.

[00:35:21] And it's almost played up.

[00:35:22] Sure.

[00:35:23] That we sort of assume Big Boy's chill.

[00:35:26] But he might not be.

[00:35:28] It's just that in comparison when you're standing next to Andre.

[00:35:31] I think as a rapper, something about the way Big Boy, just his delivery gets me.

[00:35:38] It hits the right spot.

[00:35:39] But then like the eclecticism of the stylistic stuff of Andre kind of gets the music nerd in me.

[00:35:47] So I don't know.

[00:35:48] Am I equivocating and dodging the question?

[00:35:51] Big Boy, I think.

[00:35:52] I think if I had to choose.

[00:35:54] But I don't know.

[00:35:55] Why?

[00:35:55] What about you?

[00:35:55] I mean, you said you haven't listened to much of the records, but do you have a...

[00:35:58] Yeah, I like Andre.

[00:36:00] I like the theatrical.

[00:36:01] And the music videos are great.

[00:36:03] And I feel like they're Andre's mind.

[00:36:06] I don't know about that.

[00:36:08] I don't know who would get credit.

[00:36:09] Hey, yeah.

[00:36:10] The music video is awesome.

[00:36:11] They're like on the game show and stuff.

[00:36:13] It's like, it's great.

[00:36:14] Yeah, I know.

[00:36:15] It's like really theatrical.

[00:36:16] So did you watch this music video?

[00:36:18] Yeah.

[00:36:18] Bunch of hot women.

[00:36:20] I'm not leaving this in, but...

[00:36:21] No.

[00:36:29] Nevermind the Music is hosted by me, Nicole Vatcher, and Mark Pompany.

[00:36:33] Mark also produces our podcast.

[00:36:35] Please be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review.

[00:36:39] Let us know what you think on social media.

[00:36:41] We're at Never Music Pod on all the major platforms.

[00:36:44] You can also send us an email at nevermusicpod at gmail.com.

[00:36:47] Every so often, we'll do a mailbag episode where we'll answer your burning questions.

[00:36:52] Thanks for listening.