‘Defying Gravity’ from Wicked and Holding Space for add9 Chords

[00:00:00] Mark's air playing the piano. Hey I'm Nicole. And I'm Mark. And this is Nevermind the Music. What are we talking about today, Mark? Nicole, this is I think our first topical episode. I know it's weird, but I love it. This is a reactive episode. Shout out Matt Kelly from the Geekscape Network. He's the one who was like, are you guys doing an episode on Defying Gravity from Wicked? That song's weird or something. I'm paraphrasing that. And I went, you know what? Yeah, we should do that episode.

[00:00:40] So here we are. You know what, Mark? I'm gonna correct you. You were like, I don't know. Should we? And I was like, we absolutely should because Wicked's the best. You were like, I don't know. It sounds dumb to me. And I was like, no, you're dumb. Let's do it. You're actually playing a recording of our conversation. Thank you for that unauthorized recording. So yeah, we are doing, in fact, Defying Gravity from the musical and the movie Wicked. I'm crying already. I'm already crying about it.

[00:01:25] So good. So what we're talking about, of course, is the song from the famous 2003 version. And that was with Idina Menzel and Christian Chenoweth. And we're also talking about this version.

[00:01:54] Equally as good, but different. Slightly slower. Slightly slower. Isn't it just like a click slower?

[00:01:59] And like, I know we're going to break it down, but she, her voice is like strained a little bit more in a way that I find really intriguing. More emotional, maybe.

[00:02:10] Yeah. It feels more captivating to me, but in Idina Menzel, you can't, I mean.

[00:02:14] We'll come back to that. But of course we're talking about that is the 2024 version. Cynthia Erivo singing and also Ariana Grande in that version as well.

[00:02:24] But we're also talking about this version.

[00:02:41] What?

[00:02:42] That is the 2006 pop single by Idina Menzel.

[00:02:46] Oh my gosh.

[00:02:46] She did like an album because of course she did. Right. And why wouldn't you put Defying Gravity on it? Right.

[00:02:53] I really thought you were going to come in with that Glee version of it.

[00:02:57] There's a Glee? Okay. Do I have to look up the Glee version? I'll dig out the Glee version. Is it good?

[00:03:03] It's good only because in the scene in Glee, they had like a sing-off between three characters and each character like approached the song with their own style.

[00:03:13] So you have kind of like an R&B version. You have like a very Broadway version, more of a pop version like within.

[00:03:19] And the contest was like who could hit the high note at the end and Lee and Michelle was the only one.

[00:03:24] Yeah. Lee and Michelle was the only one. Pork Cart, voice cracked.

[00:03:50] Listeners. Listeners. Mark here. While I'm editing, I just played for you the Glee version.

[00:03:57] Nicole says they have all got their different flavor. That is supposedly three different people singing.

[00:04:03] They're each singing a different part of that line and it sounds exactly the same every single person.

[00:04:10] Can you tell where one voice changes to the next voice? I watched the video. I see there's a moment where there's one woman.

[00:04:17] I see then it switches to another woman. Then I see it switches to the young man. They all sound like the same singer to me.

[00:04:23] I disagree. You got a lot more Glee knowledge than me. I've seen like one episode of that show.

[00:04:28] Guaranteed.

[00:04:28] So, okay. We are talking about the most famous, I would say, song from that musical.

[00:04:33] Um, we have to say written by Stephen Schwartz. He wrote the music for Godspell, Pippin and the lyrics to a bunch of Disney movies.

[00:04:45] So the lyrics in Hunchback of Notre Dame, Pocahontas, Enchanted. I would say this is probably his most famous thing.

[00:04:52] I was in a production of Godspell in probably 1998. And my high school drama society performed Godspell, the musical.

[00:05:02] It was pretty special. I had a flute solo in Godspell, the musical.

[00:05:07] Was it, was the musical director, Mr. Joe Mulligan?

[00:05:09] It wasn't actually, shout out. It was, uh, Mr. Neil Shapiro, another really, um, profound influence on my life.

[00:05:17] We haven't yet actually broadcast the episode where we deep dive on your high school music feature.

[00:05:22] Okay. So you, you mentioned in, well, you played the recording of our conversation, deciding whether we were going to do this episode.

[00:05:28] And my trepidation about doing it was not about not liking the song or whatever. It was because there was already so much conversation happening about this show.

[00:05:36] So I actually was sort of hesitant. Like people are talking about this movie. People are talking about this music.

[00:05:41] There's some really good podcasts that we've already heard. You are on a Lorehounds podcast, which listeners I have not listened to yet because we're recording this before.

[00:05:51] And also I wouldn't want to listen to it because I need your fresh take.

[00:05:55] No, I know. I mentioned on the Lorehounds podcast, uh, when we did a, uh, one shot about Wicked talking about like the plot more than the music that I wasn't allowed to talk about the music on the podcast because you would be mad.

[00:06:09] I have first right of refusal or whatever.

[00:06:12] Yeah.

[00:06:12] Yeah.

[00:06:12] So what's your experience with Wicked in general?

[00:06:16] Enjoy Wicked. I enjoy musical theater.

[00:06:19] Did you see it when it was a run 20 years ago or whatever?

[00:06:22] I didn't see the full version of Wicked. I have seen a version of Wicked Junior, which is like they take Broadway musicals and juniorize them to be more appropriate and shorter.

[00:06:35] It's just The Wizard of Oz.

[00:06:36] No, no, not at all, Mark. Oh, no. It's so different. But it's like for kids. So I saw like a kid's production of Wicked, which wasn't as I mean, she she got the note, but it wasn't great.

[00:06:48] You know, she did her best like the note into fine gravity.

[00:06:51] I didn't know that Wicked had progressed to where they were doing youth theater versions.

[00:06:57] Yes, dude. Wicked is huge.

[00:06:59] Well, no, it's not that it's it's if something is huge, they don't know.

[00:07:02] They do.

[00:07:02] Because they want to keep it's going to be a little while before we have high school version of Hamilton.

[00:07:06] Because why? Because they can still sell tickets in the actual official.

[00:07:09] No, it actually exists because they sell the rights to it and make a lot of money.

[00:07:13] But then they must. I wonder if they stop it because it's back.

[00:07:17] I was just in New York. Wicked is back on Broadway.

[00:07:19] Yeah. I wonder if they kind of stop issuing licenses for high schools to do it because it does.

[00:07:23] As much as it might build hype, it also possibly suppresses demand a little bit.

[00:07:27] Maybe.

[00:07:28] You can see the high schoolers.

[00:07:30] I don't know, man.

[00:07:31] Sort of sing the high note.

[00:07:32] If I have the choice to see like a high school production of Wicked or I even saw a middle school production or go see it on Broadway.

[00:07:39] Like, I don't think you can compare them.

[00:07:41] If you're a Wicked fan, you're you want it anyway.

[00:07:43] So you've you've seen a junior version.

[00:07:46] Have you heard the music?

[00:07:47] You didn't see professional.

[00:07:48] I didn't see professionals.

[00:07:49] I'm familiar with the soundtrack.

[00:07:51] Like I've listened to the soundtrack quite a bit.

[00:07:52] Did you read the book by Gregory Maguire?

[00:07:54] I didn't read the book, but I want to because I heard it.

[00:07:57] It's so different and like darker and creepier and really like with lots of lore and lots of nuance that the musical just can't cover.

[00:08:07] Right.

[00:08:07] For time.

[00:08:08] So and I'm sure you all talked about it a lot in the episode.

[00:08:11] So my deal with Wicked, I didn't see it on Broadway, but I did see the touring company do it in L.A.

[00:08:16] probably late aughts or something when they came by.

[00:08:19] And I have to say I was disappointed by that.

[00:08:22] That was not because I didn't like it.

[00:08:24] It was because that show had been so overhyped by every that was my era when I was in like choirs and I was a grad student at the time.

[00:08:34] And I was just so immersed in singers and vocal music and stuff like that.

[00:08:37] And all those people are big musical theater nerds.

[00:08:40] And everybody was just wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked.

[00:08:43] And I was disappointed by the music.

[00:08:45] Defying Gravity is a great song.

[00:08:46] I've since listened to the music more and I like the songs, but nothing can ever deal with someone majorly overhyping a show.

[00:08:55] For sure.

[00:08:56] So I showed up having never heard it and was blown away by the spectacle of it all.

[00:09:00] The clockwork dragon or whatever stuff that was happening on stage and was just kind of like, oh, it's OK.

[00:09:05] I mean, that's we can maybe talk about musicals in general.

[00:09:07] I think that's unfortunately a thing that can happen a lot with musicals.

[00:09:11] And let's we'll come back to that.

[00:09:12] But so I was sort of like, oh, whatever, this is fine.

[00:09:15] Only later did I realize because I didn't see Idina Menzel in the cast.

[00:09:19] It's not until Frozen that I was like, oh, my God, this woman is the best singer ever.

[00:09:24] She's very good.

[00:09:26] I happen to be about a third through reading the book.

[00:09:29] Oh, cool.

[00:09:30] Not totally a coincidence, but it's just my library was having a sale like six months ago and I just saw it for like a dollar.

[00:09:37] I'm like, sure, I'll buy that.

[00:09:39] But I'm interested.

[00:09:39] And I started reading it before I really knew.

[00:09:42] I mean, I knew the movie was coming up, but I had no idea it was going to be such a smash hit.

[00:09:45] So where are you in the book?

[00:09:46] Like, have they gotten to shiz yet or is it still?

[00:09:48] They're definitely in the book is super different.

[00:09:50] It's stretched out a lot.

[00:09:52] There are characters that die really early on that do not die at all, I think, in the musical.

[00:09:57] So it is darker.

[00:09:58] Fiero, the guy Fiero, I think is his name, just showed up.

[00:10:02] But anyway, so you've seen the movie.

[00:10:04] I've seen the movie.

[00:10:05] I have not seen the movie.

[00:10:06] You need to see the movie.

[00:10:07] I have listened to the music.

[00:10:09] I have not seen them.

[00:10:10] I have listened to several of the songs from the movie.

[00:10:13] I feel like at this point, I should just own that.

[00:10:16] Did you like the movie?

[00:10:17] You need to own it.

[00:10:18] It's very good.

[00:10:19] Do you want me to brain dump my favorite parts of the movie?

[00:10:22] I think you already said that on another podcast.

[00:10:26] We should probably get to the song, but it's good.

[00:10:28] It's good.

[00:10:29] You like it.

[00:10:30] I want to see the movie.

[00:10:31] It's stupid that I haven't seen the movie.

[00:10:32] I don't see a lot of movies.

[00:10:33] I will see it.

[00:10:34] It is stupid.

[00:10:36] Cheers.

[00:10:36] Cheers.

[00:10:36] I'll cut a bunch of this.

[00:10:37] It's been kind of boring.

[00:10:38] Hang on.

[00:10:38] What do I want to say?

[00:10:41] Okay.

[00:10:42] Someone on the Lorehounds Discord did pose the question, are we going to adjudicate which

[00:10:47] was the more important song?

[00:10:50] Let it go or Defying Gravity?

[00:10:52] Oh, how interesting.

[00:10:54] I think it's clear, but I really want to know what you think.

[00:10:57] Which is the more important song?

[00:10:59] Not which is the better, which is the more important song?

[00:11:01] I think this is Marilyn Arpikula, of course, coming with the big picture view of everything.

[00:11:06] You know, and someone else mentioned that they're kind of the same song, theoretically,

[00:11:13] that it's someone that's...

[00:11:14] Villain origin stories?

[00:11:15] Kind of.

[00:11:16] Villain origin stories.

[00:11:18] Kind of.

[00:11:19] And like that, it's someone that is ostracized, like running off to reinvent themselves or self-isolate.

[00:11:27] So it's really interesting, which is the more important song.

[00:11:30] I think Defying Gravity is a more important song.

[00:11:33] Wow.

[00:11:33] I do.

[00:11:34] Just for my time and place.

[00:11:36] You mean because you were like 20 when it came out?

[00:11:38] Well, I listened to Frozen so much during COVID.

[00:11:41] Like that's all we listened to.

[00:11:43] And I got really sick of it.

[00:11:45] But I think that it's...

[00:11:46] They're both like anthems of female empowerment in a way that I'm into.

[00:11:50] But I just really like, well, Let It Go talks about isolation a lot.

[00:11:57] I think Defying Gravity talks about like female camaraderie and finding people in your life that can walk next to you even if they disagree with you.

[00:12:07] And I think that that's a really cool bit in reference to like the development of dichotomous thinking.

[00:12:13] Big words already.

[00:12:14] I know, right?

[00:12:15] The coffee is really coffeeing.

[00:12:16] I think Let It Go.

[00:12:18] And it has less to do with the song as much as this show.

[00:12:21] I think if Wicked were Hamilton, because interestingly, I think Defying Gravity looms over that musical as the most famous song more than any one song in Hamilton does.

[00:12:31] However, Hamilton was such a massive hit.

[00:12:34] I don't think Wicked is quite as ubiquitous.

[00:12:37] Wicked is a massive hit.

[00:12:38] Oh, I don't think it's anything like what Hamilton was a decade later, though.

[00:12:42] In terms of everywhere.

[00:12:44] Whereas, whereas, look, I could be wrong.

[00:12:46] You're going to make a lot of people on Discord mad.

[00:12:49] Let It Go and Frozen is like, okay, Disney is back and Disney is dominant.

[00:12:54] Sure.

[00:12:55] In a way that I think Hamilton is musical theater is back.

[00:12:59] Whereas every decade has like whether it's Rent or Wicked.

[00:13:03] I think those were the signposts of those decades of musical theater.

[00:13:08] I just think the cultural importance of what Let It Go was for sort of animated movies was more, relatively speaking, than Wicked was for musicals.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:20] I'll have to say, when you talk about Hamilton, that Hamilton made like was said that musical theater was back.

[00:13:28] I think Hamilton made musical theater accessible to people that weren't musical theater fans again.

[00:13:33] Totally.

[00:13:33] Absolutely.

[00:13:33] Because people that are like true musical theater fans loved Hamilton, but were like, okay, who are, it's all these posers now are like listening to musical theater again.

[00:13:43] We loved it the whole time.

[00:13:45] Poser.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:46] So, I mean, I think that's kind of what I'm saying, I guess, is like whether Hamilton was more important in the musical theater community or not.

[00:13:53] I feel like it brought in so many people that it's, whereas, and like Let It Go similarly, like I didn't have kids when that musical came out and I still knew that, you know?

[00:14:03] So, when Frozen came out.

[00:14:05] So, I don't know.

[00:14:06] Which of the songs is more, I don't know.

[00:14:08] But in terms of Frozen, I feel like occupies a different zeitgeisty spot.

[00:14:13] But I don't know.

[00:14:14] Right in.

[00:14:15] Right in.

[00:14:16] We've got another mailbag.

[00:14:18] All right.

[00:14:18] All right.

[00:14:18] All right.

[00:14:18] So, it was a bit tough at first to figure out like what I wanted to talk about because of this song had so many people talking about it.

[00:14:26] There's even a video.

[00:14:27] Thank you, Alicia, for sending it to us.

[00:14:30] A video of Steven Schwartz like nerding out, explaining his chord progression and stuff like that.

[00:14:35] And talking about first inversion chords and all sorts of stuff like that.

[00:14:39] Could talk about that.

[00:14:40] We could talk about the octave displacement of the word defying in the hook.

[00:14:44] I could talk about how Schwartz talks about that in his video, how the unlimited is just a repurposing of somewhere over the rainbow, just with a different rhythm.

[00:14:56] I could talk about how I think the form of this song might be a rondo, which is a classical dance banger form that you could do.

[00:15:03] Fun.

[00:15:04] And we could talk about how the 2024 version has an extra whole new section that adds like a minute or two.

[00:15:09] But no, Mark's got to go with where Mark wants to go, which is the intersection of melody and chords.

[00:15:15] I've got some interesting things that I've heard in this song, and I'll leave it to the other professionals to talk about all those other topics.

[00:15:23] In terms of the extra section, though, it really made singing along hard.

[00:15:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:27] Because I was so used to.

[00:15:28] You had it memorized or whatever.

[00:15:29] And I, you know, I'm not going to sing on the pod today because I'll just be plucked into being right on Broadway once they hear my majestic singing voice.

[00:15:37] Especially after I used the pitch correction software.

[00:15:39] Right, of course.

[00:15:41] But it was so funny.

[00:15:42] The first time I was singing along in my car to the newer version, I was like, oh, OK.

[00:15:45] I just had to sit and wait for my cue.

[00:15:48] Well, it's like, what is our episode six or something?

[00:15:51] The edits of Third Eye Blind's Semi-Charmed Life.

[00:15:54] How do you never know?

[00:15:55] How do you sing along if you don't know whether it's going to have the bridge or not?

[00:16:14] All right.

[00:16:15] So melody and chords.

[00:16:16] And I have no idea where you're going to go with this.

[00:16:18] I want to hear what you have to say about the brain of all this.

[00:16:21] But let's listen to the verse of this song to get a sense for what I'm going to talk about.

[00:16:28] Something has changed within me.

[00:16:33] Something is not the same.

[00:16:36] I'm through with playing by the rules of someone else's game.

[00:16:45] So this is the Idina Menzel version from 03, by the way.

[00:16:49] This is kind of a weird part of the song, too, because I don't feel like you know the song started yet.

[00:16:54] But this opens with a bunch of sort of talky singing-ish sort of stuff.

[00:16:59] What do we call the talk singing?

[00:17:00] You remember?

[00:17:01] Oh, budge.

[00:17:03] Retis-tis-tis-tis something.

[00:17:07] Recitative.

[00:17:07] Recitative.

[00:17:08] Good job.

[00:17:08] I couldn't say it then.

[00:17:09] I can't say it.

[00:17:09] You came close.

[00:17:10] All right.

[00:17:10] So this part of the song isn't recitative, but it's only like really in retrospect that you realize this is a verse.

[00:17:17] It sort of emerges from recitative, but I want you to listen to the second chord of each shift in the orchestra.

[00:17:26] Something has changed within me.

[00:17:29] So the second chord there has a funny name.

[00:17:33] It's G flat add nine.

[00:17:41] So that's what this chord sounds like.

[00:17:47] So hear how that's all spacey and kind of something kind of strange about it.

[00:17:51] That's just a root and a fifth, which means the main note in the bass and then a note five notes above.

[00:17:58] But then a ninth note, a ninth above.

[00:18:01] So it's got a G flat and a note, not eight notes above, but nine notes above.

[00:18:05] And that sort of clashes, doesn't really fit well.

[00:18:09] And then, so you'll hear it again, but then I'll play with the extra note they leave out here, which is called the third.

[00:18:14] So it's a full, this is what the chord fully sounds like.

[00:18:19] And now what's the third?

[00:18:23] I love it.

[00:18:25] Like this little fairy that floats on top of it.

[00:18:28] Floating, right?

[00:18:29] Yeah.

[00:18:30] Why is it floating?

[00:18:31] Because it's not connected.

[00:18:32] That ninth, that extra note, the A flat over a G flat is not supposed to be there.

[00:18:39] Sometimes you remember our episode on True by Spandau Ballet?

[00:18:43] Talked about the money note, how like the high note in the vocal would be the ninth or the seventh.

[00:18:47] Those jazzy chords are different than this chord because those chords also have the seventh connecting.

[00:18:54] So in music, when you stack up notes on top of each other, they feel like they blend.

[00:18:58] You've got a root, that's one.

[00:19:00] And then you put a three.

[00:19:01] And then you put a five.

[00:19:03] And then you put a seven.

[00:19:04] Then you could keep going.

[00:19:05] A nine.

[00:19:06] An 11.

[00:19:07] A 13.

[00:19:07] And those notes all blend together and sound like they fit.

[00:19:11] So you'd get something like this chord, a G flat major nine.

[00:19:21] That is not what we have here because we don't have that seven.

[00:19:25] These aren't connected.

[00:19:26] We have one, three, five, nine.

[00:19:30] Or in this actual case, just one, five, nine.

[00:19:33] It feels like they are disconnected.

[00:19:36] And like you said, floating.

[00:19:38] Like they're defying gravity.

[00:19:40] Like they are defi-

[00:19:41] You got the notes.

[00:19:42] You got the notes.

[00:19:42] No, I didn't.

[00:19:44] Did you do it?

[00:19:45] So hear it within the context of the song again and listen for that second chord that

[00:19:49] keeps coming back and how sort of not tense, but just sort of like suspenseful, suspended

[00:19:56] it sounds.

[00:19:56] The chord in question is when she says the word changed and she says, not the same.

[00:20:03] Something has changed within me.

[00:20:08] Something is not the same.

[00:20:11] It has that kind of like floatiness and it's because of this.

[00:20:14] This is going to be shocking.

[00:20:17] Ugh.

[00:20:18] That cluster.

[00:20:19] That's the G flat and the A flat playing together.

[00:20:22] But what this doesn't have, this doesn't have the R&B soul jazz flavor that we had with

[00:20:30] not only true, but the other songs we talked about in an episode like Marvin Gaye, Al Green,

[00:20:36] these soulful sounds come from a connected dissonant chord.

[00:20:40] This is just dissonant with this weird clash floating above what we've got.

[00:20:47] Okay.

[00:20:48] So that sound of this ad nine, these disconnected dissonant chords, like floaty dissonant chords,

[00:20:55] that is the deal with this song.

[00:20:57] They are all throughout this and other songs.

[00:21:01] The reason why we have that floaty weird dissonance is because those notes are so close.

[00:21:05] They're only a step apart.

[00:21:06] G flat, A flat.

[00:21:08] Once again, what we have in the melody also is notes really close to each other.

[00:21:15] If we listen here to the chorus, I'll try defying gravity.

[00:21:20] We have notes again that are a step apart.

[00:21:23] And what do they harmonize the chords with under?

[00:21:26] These chords with added tones.

[00:21:28] Sometimes they add the ninth, like the G flat add nine.

[00:21:31] Sometimes they add a fourth.

[00:21:33] So they'll have one, three, four, five.

[00:21:36] And what we have is a melody with a lot of falling steps.

[00:21:40] I'll try defying gravity with chords that also have steps that are clashing.

[00:22:01] Mark's air playing the piano.

[00:22:03] Yeah.

[00:22:04] So the high note of each of those clashes with the main note.

[00:22:08] They're dissonant always, but only a step apart.

[00:22:11] You already mentioned the famous high note.

[00:22:13] Some of this melody also really uses the step being one step away from the note you're supposed to be.

[00:22:19] The famous climax at the very, very end of the song is, of course, that exact interval.

[00:22:26] It's falling from above a step.

[00:22:37] And that's Indina Menzel, but the new version changes that.

[00:22:41] She just does a little more with it.

[00:22:42] She does a little bit more acrobatic with it.

[00:22:43] She does a little more flipping.

[00:22:44] Yes.

[00:22:44] But still, we have that step.

[00:22:46] So steps are the vibe of this song.

[00:22:48] What do you think?

[00:22:49] I think it's so aligned with this moment in the plot that you don't even know.

[00:22:55] You don't even know it.

[00:22:57] But I do.

[00:22:57] I know.

[00:22:57] I've seen the musical.

[00:22:58] I know.

[00:22:59] I know the story.

[00:23:00] I don't know what they've changed in the movie.

[00:23:02] And I don't know how it's different from the book because I'm not this far in the book.

[00:23:06] No, I mean, I think that the premise between the musical and the movie is the same.

[00:23:11] That like they're at, there's a moment that everything shifts for the main characters.

[00:23:16] And it's quick.

[00:23:17] It's a very quick moment that everything gets all topsy-turvy for them.

[00:23:22] Well, is this spoiler alert for the 1930s?

[00:23:24] Because the Wizard of Oz is not actually a wizard.

[00:23:27] He's a charlatan.

[00:23:28] No, we find that out.

[00:23:30] And then what happens is, what happens is, can we talk about it?

[00:23:35] Are we spoiling?

[00:23:35] Well, if we know, if you don't know what happens in Wicked, like, I'm sorry.

[00:23:40] Just turn off, you know, don't turn off our podcast.

[00:23:43] Skip forward 60 seconds if you don't want to spoiler for a movie that I haven't seen.

[00:23:46] So what happens is, is that Howie Mandel, who plays the wizard, he's great, really targets Elphaba and villainizes her in a way to bring Oz together.

[00:23:58] Oz needs someone to scapegoat.

[00:24:02] And he is threatened by Elphaba's power and puts her in a position to be villainized.

[00:24:08] And so, like, everyone needs an enemy to rally against.

[00:24:11] And Elphaba quickly goes from being this very endearing character that really supports social justice, you know, paraphrasing, to being cast as a villain.

[00:24:22] And she's not.

[00:24:23] She's absolutely not.

[00:24:24] And she makes a choice to escape and to say, like, you know, I'm, she's so aligned with Glinda in this moment that Glinda is, like, she's a good role model for, like, the good in the world.

[00:24:37] And they're always very, they've been in step this whole time for this part of the movie.

[00:24:42] And then as this break happens, she's like, Elphaba, no, you can stay here.

[00:24:46] You can, we can be together still.

[00:24:47] You don't have to run off because their goals are kind of similar, but Glinda says we can change the system from inside.

[00:24:55] And Elphaba says, no, I need to get outside of the system to make change.

[00:24:58] And that's something we see a lot in, like, political conversations, right?

[00:25:02] Do we want to be an agitator or do we want to be someone that's subservient and try to convince the people on the inside to be better?

[00:25:09] So they're just, like, they're in step because they want the same things, but they're just out of step because they're trying to approach them in different angles.

[00:25:15] Which really parallels what you're describing in the way that the song is written.

[00:25:20] Does that make sense?

[00:25:21] I think so.

[00:25:22] Am I doing it?

[00:25:23] Wait, so the, the.

[00:25:24] Am I podcasting?

[00:25:25] The Wizard of, I thought the Wizard of, Wizard was Jeff Goldblum.

[00:25:28] Oh, what did I say?

[00:25:29] Howie Mandel?

[00:25:30] Is it?

[00:25:30] I get that mixed up, like, a lot.

[00:25:32] It is Jeff Goldblum.

[00:25:32] I haven't seen him.

[00:25:33] It absolutely is Jeff Goldblum.

[00:25:34] Imagine Howie Mandel.

[00:25:36] The whole idea of the gentle instability and lack of foundation and connective tissue between an ad nine cord, or some of these are what we call ad four cords.

[00:25:45] Definitely fits with the idea of separation from the mainstream and stuff like that.

[00:25:50] And literally there's a broom flight, right?

[00:25:52] In this, isn't there?

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:54] In the scene?

[00:25:54] I know that, that much at least.

[00:25:56] So I think that fits.

[00:25:57] I don't know that it's anything beyond, like, a vibe.

[00:26:00] Like, if you watch Stephen Schwartz talk about this song, he talks a lot about using first inversion chord because it similarly doesn't have grounding.

[00:26:07] So that sort of all is a part of this package.

[00:26:10] But, spoiler for a little bit further in the podcast, this sound, this specific kind of chord, is like the musical theater thing between the 90s and the 2000s.

[00:26:20] Oh, for sure.

[00:26:20] Because it worked here for Wicked.

[00:26:22] It worked here for...

[00:26:23] It's like the tension and, like, progresses the plot in a subconscious way.

[00:26:26] Right.

[00:26:26] Like, you feel the tension building, whether, before you even see it.

[00:26:29] Are we going to listen to more examples of it?

[00:26:31] We're going to listen to more examples, but we're going to listen to the literal same section because it's not just...

[00:26:35] I mentioned how the chord type that we have has this sort of clash of the step.

[00:26:41] The melody is suggesting a clash of the step because of gravity.

[00:26:46] But also, I want you to listen to that really prominent riff.

[00:26:49] I want you to listen to what in the original version is piano, but in the newer version is also like orchestra instruments.

[00:26:55] I think flutes and stuff like that.

[00:26:57] I want you to listen to this thing happening way above.

[00:27:17] I love it.

[00:27:18] It's like calling me up.

[00:27:20] Calling you up?

[00:27:21] Well, it's really high.

[00:27:22] Yeah.

[00:27:22] But it's like lifting me up.

[00:27:24] Does that...

[00:27:24] That's interesting.

[00:27:26] Yeah.

[00:27:26] So what is happening here?

[00:27:27] We have this part playing up way above the chords.

[00:27:33] And what do we have?

[00:27:34] We have a single step and then a higher leap.

[00:27:38] Up a fifth from that.

[00:27:40] Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

[00:27:41] Those notes create dissonant chords and it creates the type that I've been talking about.

[00:27:47] Either an add nine, which is not a supported warm chord.

[00:27:52] It's this bizarre sort of floating chord.

[00:27:55] Or an add four.

[00:27:57] And listen when I play the bass along to create the full chords.

[00:28:07] Or if I play them together.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] They are dissonant.

[00:28:14] But it doesn't sound that way when you hear the song, right?

[00:28:17] No.

[00:28:17] Because there's a lack of intentionality in that dissonance.

[00:28:21] I talk in my music theory classes.

[00:28:23] Uh-oh, here we go.

[00:28:23] I just gave a final not long ago.

[00:28:27] Talk about whether tension and dissonance has a purpose.

[00:28:31] Whether it's leading somewhere.

[00:28:32] Whether it needs to resolve.

[00:28:33] Or if it's just kind of chilling.

[00:28:36] And yes, I use that term in a college class.

[00:28:38] That's okay.

[00:28:38] And these dissonant chords don't feel like they have to resolve.

[00:28:42] They're just sort of stuck.

[00:28:48] Listen to the context of the song.

[00:28:57] It creates a sense of instability, but it's not anything more than just feeling like you've been lifted up.

[00:29:04] And you're not on the ground.

[00:29:05] You're not stable in the way that you would feel like totally secure in your chord on the ground.

[00:29:10] But it's also not like you're being torn in a direction like certain kind of chords we've talked about in this podcast.

[00:29:16] And in the movie, they're literally ascending during this part.

[00:29:20] They're moving up.

[00:29:21] They're going up.

[00:29:22] Okay.

[00:29:22] That's interesting.

[00:29:23] Okay.

[00:29:24] Wow.

[00:29:24] You got to see the movie.

[00:29:25] I will.

[00:29:26] If we keep going in the song, we have these kinds of chords being basically everywhere.

[00:29:32] So in verse two, we have our chord progression a little spicier.

[00:29:35] We've got a C-flat chord.

[00:29:37] That's right.

[00:29:38] But what is it?

[00:29:39] C-flat.

[00:29:39] B-sharp.

[00:29:40] Add nine.

[00:29:41] B-natural.

[00:29:42] The Bs always get me.

[00:29:44] We're in the key of G-flat.

[00:29:45] We're in the key of G-flat.

[00:29:46] So it's going to be a C-flat chord, not a B chord.

[00:29:49] We have a, I'm not going to like pick these apart, but a G-flat add nine.

[00:29:53] We have a G-flat add nine and A-flat add four, which just means you add that note.

[00:29:58] And a C-flat add nine.

[00:30:00] And it creates this really cool, really unusual floaty move.

[00:30:05] Listen.

[00:30:12] Here we go.

[00:30:19] Here on when she says never know is when we get the C-flat.

[00:30:22] We are not using major nines and minor sevens and these jazzy R&B chords.

[00:30:27] These are all these floaty types.

[00:30:29] And then we hear in the next verse, the same kind of thing.

[00:30:33] And I would say this is pretty much getting to the climax of the song.

[00:30:36] It's me.

[00:30:55] Oh, we cut it off.

[00:30:57] It's so good.

[00:30:58] It's so good.

[00:31:00] That's the only reason I play that.

[00:31:01] Oh my gosh.

[00:31:02] That part doesn't prove any point.

[00:31:04] I've already played those chords.

[00:31:05] It's just awesome.

[00:31:06] I just wanted to play it.

[00:31:07] It's so good.

[00:31:08] And just it keeps getting better and better.

[00:31:09] Oh, gosh.

[00:31:11] I love it so much.

[00:31:11] Okay.

[00:31:12] So I know this is some territory we've tread on in other episodes of this podcast,

[00:31:17] specifically with the jazzy stuff in that true episode.

[00:31:21] But I think this is just different because these chords don't have that warmth.

[00:31:26] They feel like less emotional, but like it lets the vocal float above us.

[00:31:31] I don't know.

[00:31:32] I'm reaching here with my language.

[00:31:34] No, it's okay.

[00:31:35] It's good.

[00:31:37] I should defy gravity.

[00:31:37] I mean, I gotta work it in as much as we can.

[00:31:40] It's really interesting to hear how much the, I hate to say music theory because I know

[00:31:45] you're gonna give me shit, but like the composition of the song mirrors what's happening in the

[00:31:52] plot and what's happening lyrically.

[00:31:54] And I know oftentimes on this podcast, I ask like, was it the composer's intention?

[00:31:59] I believe it was his intention to do that.

[00:32:02] I believe that this guy is smart enough to know that he is offering parallels between what's

[00:32:06] happening compositionally and what's happening in the plot.

[00:32:09] Do you think so?

[00:32:10] Or do you think he was like, oh, it sounds cool.

[00:32:12] I mean, I think it's possible that, look, I'm about to play a bunch of other musicals

[00:32:16] that use the exact same chord.

[00:32:18] Sure.

[00:32:18] So there is an element where there could be a coincidence between the defying gravity floating

[00:32:26] up in the sky and this chord that may not be directly there, but there is something about

[00:32:31] the gentle and purposeless instability of this kind of harmony that serves a really effective

[00:32:39] emotional purpose in a musical.

[00:32:41] And here's the thing.

[00:32:42] It's everywhere.

[00:32:43] At least this era.

[00:32:44] I think the thing, and I want to come back to maybe talk musicals in general, but we

[00:32:48] have eras of musical, right?

[00:32:50] If you look at things written in the 60s and 70s, you're getting a lot of jazz influenced

[00:32:55] musicals, right?

[00:32:56] Not counting, you know, hair or whatever, kind of these prototypical sort of anthem of

[00:33:02] their generation shows.

[00:33:04] But jazz sort of stops being the dominant flavor and we have kind of new flavors that come.

[00:33:09] And in this era, this sort of 90s, 2000s, I feel like this harmony comes to represent

[00:33:16] sort of possibilities and wondering.

[00:33:21] And I don't know.

[00:33:23] Let me walk you through.

[00:33:24] And then we'll come back to your sort of bigger question.

[00:33:26] Because does this prove the point?

[00:33:28] This is probably the er text of 1990s musicals.

[00:33:33] 1996 is Rent.

[00:33:38] What is that first chord?

[00:33:41] Magic.

[00:33:42] Just pure magic.

[00:33:43] Like heartwarming magic.

[00:33:45] But it's probably like, I don't know, what are you talking about?

[00:33:47] Like elevated?

[00:33:53] It's probably like an A add four.

[00:33:55] It's a B flat add nine.

[00:33:56] Okay.

[00:33:56] I know something like that.

[00:33:57] This song has a little more sort of gospel R&B flavor.

[00:34:00] So it actually will use some harmonies that are more robust.

[00:34:04] But it opens with that single chord, which is the chord of this song, just in a different key.

[00:34:10] And if you are a musical theater kid, all it takes is that chord.

[00:34:14] And you know exactly what song is.

[00:34:16] It's a good one.

[00:34:16] Yeah.

[00:34:16] It's so it's iconic.

[00:34:18] Do you know that Idina Menzel was in the original Broadway cast of Rent?

[00:34:21] Really?

[00:34:22] What was her character?

[00:34:23] She sang the Take Me or Leave Me song.

[00:34:26] She was like the...

[00:34:27] Wait, she's Maureen in the original?

[00:34:28] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Oh, of course.

[00:34:30] Over the Moon or whatever.

[00:34:34] Elsie whisper to me.

[00:34:37] Oh yeah.

[00:34:47] She's so good.

[00:34:48] She's so good.

[00:34:49] Okay.

[00:34:49] Take Me or Leave Me is a great karaoke song.

[00:34:52] Okay.

[00:34:52] So there's more from Rent.

[00:34:54] This is a song that it's not famous outside of just watching the show, but it really, I found myself super drawn to it.

[00:35:00] It's called Will I?

[00:35:01] Listen to the type of harmony.

[00:35:04] Will I lose my dignity?

[00:35:10] Will someone care?

[00:35:26] That song's powerful.

[00:35:28] Sure is.

[00:35:28] It's the aid support group that they're in.

[00:35:31] And it's that chord.

[00:35:32] It's using the same add nine chord.

[00:35:34] And then one more example from Rent.

[00:35:37] Same chord.

[00:35:41] This time the melody's hitting it too.

[00:35:55] The original Broadway cast of Rent is stacked.

[00:35:59] Oh yeah.

[00:36:00] So good.

[00:36:00] Completely stacked.

[00:36:01] Moving on in history.

[00:36:03] Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

[00:36:05] Okay.

[00:36:05] Do you know this?

[00:36:05] I'm not super familiar with it.

[00:36:07] I know Neil Patrick Harris was in it for a minute.

[00:36:10] Yeah, later on I think.

[00:36:11] Yeah.

[00:36:11] He's not the original.

[00:36:12] This is 2001 off-Broadway version.

[00:36:14] This starts with that same chord.

[00:36:17] This is a song called Wicked Little Town.

[00:36:18] No relation to Wicked.

[00:36:21] Gorgeous song.

[00:36:22] Starts with that same thing, though it does move into slightly different, kind of more out

[00:36:27] of key chords.

[00:36:28] Beautiful.

[00:36:29] I know the sun is in the dark.

[00:36:38] And how you're black and cloudy sky.

[00:36:48] Similar kind of vibe.

[00:36:50] Do you know the movie musical Once?

[00:36:52] Does this count?

[00:36:53] Does this count?

[00:36:55] It's a movie musical.

[00:36:56] It's really kind of just a movie that has songs.

[00:36:58] It's the Irish film about-

[00:36:59] Yeah, I never really got into it, but like, I should have.

[00:37:03] It's a good movie.

[00:37:04] It's 2007.

[00:37:05] This is a song Falling Slowly.

[00:37:07] I love this song.

[00:37:08] Glenn Hansard and Marquette Irglova performing it.

[00:37:12] Lots of neighbor tones and notes that are close but not quite right.

[00:37:16] And, of course, add nine chords.

[00:37:19] I don't know what you want.

[00:37:35] I haven't heard that song for years.

[00:37:37] It's so good.

[00:37:38] I listened to it a lot when I was in my Damien Rice phase.

[00:37:41] It's good.

[00:37:42] What does that have to do with Damien Rice?

[00:37:43] It's an Irish-

[00:37:44] The whole ethos of that island you were into it.

[00:37:47] Yeah, it was just like a vibe.

[00:37:48] Okay.

[00:37:48] Moving forward in history.

[00:37:50] This is Next to Normal.

[00:37:51] Do you know this musical?

[00:37:52] 2008?

[00:37:53] No.

[00:37:53] It's really good.

[00:37:55] It's a family coping with the loss of the sort of older child, I think, the son.

[00:38:01] And it's a lot about the daughter trying to deal with-

[00:38:03] Oh, gosh.

[00:38:04] But they're like young adults or teenagers.

[00:38:06] And this is a song called Superboy and the Invisible Girl.

[00:38:08] The daughter kind of realizing how she can't live up to the memory of her brother.

[00:38:13] Gosh.

[00:38:13] It's heavy.

[00:38:14] It's a really good show, but it's very heavy.

[00:38:15] You're killing me today, dude.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:16] Okay.

[00:38:16] So anyways, this song has these same added and sometimes suspended chords.

[00:38:35] Almost out of examples.

[00:38:36] Fast forward to 2015.

[00:38:40] Wait for it from Hamilton.

[00:38:41] Oh.

[00:38:42] This one has add nine chords, the add four, sometimes sus four chords, which is slightly different.

[00:38:48] And the melody, like with Without You, is singing the note that is the sort of dissonant note here.

[00:38:55] Death doesn't discriminate.

[00:38:56] From the sinners and the saints it takes and it takes and it takes.

[00:39:00] And we can live in any way.

[00:39:02] The thighs and the floor will be breaking.

[00:39:04] Make mistakes.

[00:39:05] And if there's a reason I'm still alive.

[00:39:08] When everyone who loves me has died.

[00:39:10] I'm willing to wait for it.

[00:39:11] Wait for it.

[00:39:12] I'm willing to wait for it.

[00:39:15] I have to do it, right?

[00:39:28] That's one of my favorite songs from Hamilton.

[00:39:30] Oh gosh.

[00:39:31] That's amazing.

[00:39:32] Yorktown is a great one too.

[00:39:33] Yorktown.

[00:39:34] I'm a sucker for all the Aaron Burr songs.

[00:39:36] Dear Theodosia.

[00:39:37] That's like my.

[00:39:38] That makes sense.

[00:39:39] That's like my.

[00:39:40] Oh my gosh.

[00:39:40] I had a daughter.

[00:39:41] This song makes me want to cry.

[00:39:42] Kind of.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:43] You're an Aaron Burr.

[00:39:44] I'm an Aaron Burr.

[00:39:45] I'm a villain.

[00:39:46] No, he's not a villain.

[00:39:47] He was just misunderstood.

[00:39:48] I don't know.

[00:39:49] I think he's kind of a villain.

[00:39:49] Like actually is the villain of that story.

[00:39:52] But.

[00:39:53] I.

[00:39:53] I don't know who I would be in Hamilton.

[00:39:54] I think.

[00:39:54] I think the problem with.

[00:39:56] Aaron Burr has no principles, right?

[00:39:57] That's the problem.

[00:39:58] I think he is.

[00:39:58] I don't.

[00:39:59] I don't view my.

[00:40:00] Anyways.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:01] I want to be a Hercules Mulligan.

[00:40:03] He's a cool character for the only.

[00:40:05] The first act.

[00:40:06] But then he turns into.

[00:40:08] James Madison.

[00:40:08] Yeah.

[00:40:09] Okay.

[00:40:09] Anyway.

[00:40:10] So.

[00:40:10] We need to.

[00:40:10] Is there a vibe?

[00:40:11] Hamilton's on the list.

[00:40:12] Is there a vibe?

[00:40:13] I mean.

[00:40:14] Wait for it is maybe the best song.

[00:40:16] You like Yorktown.

[00:40:17] Okay.

[00:40:17] I like Yorktown.

[00:40:17] So do these have something in common?

[00:40:19] They all feel like they're a piece.

[00:40:21] I just played what?

[00:40:22] Seven songs.

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:23] They all use the same chord in a really prominent way.

[00:40:26] Wait for it isn't quite the same vibe as Defying Gravity.

[00:40:29] Because wait for it is earlier in the character arc.

[00:40:31] But it's also kind of a villain motivation story a little bit.

[00:40:34] They're all like depressing but uplifting at the same time.

[00:40:38] Right.

[00:40:38] Every song you played.

[00:40:39] I mean that.

[00:40:40] The ones.

[00:40:41] All the ones from Rent.

[00:40:42] I mean.

[00:40:42] Yeah.

[00:40:42] I mean Rent.

[00:40:43] All of Rent is depressing and uplifting.

[00:40:45] But.

[00:40:46] Yeah.

[00:40:46] But everyone.

[00:40:47] It like makes you feel like heavy but like coming of age.

[00:40:51] Interesting.

[00:40:52] For me.

[00:40:52] Coming of age.

[00:40:53] Is this the sound of that?

[00:40:54] Right?

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:55] For me it is.

[00:40:57] All right.

[00:41:16] So I've made my case.

[00:41:17] Okay.

[00:41:17] Do you.

[00:41:18] Is there anything else we should.

[00:41:20] Like what is there to say psychically about this?

[00:41:23] I have so much.

[00:41:23] Okay.

[00:41:24] Yes.

[00:41:24] So not.

[00:41:26] It's kind of like adjacent to what you're talking about.

[00:41:28] But this idea of coming of age.

[00:41:30] This idea that all these songs you played that use this chord are songs that I sit with

[00:41:38] and listen to in a way that I have to stop everything to listen to those songs.

[00:41:42] Right?

[00:41:43] Like wait for it comes on.

[00:41:45] And I'm not like grading while I'm listening to it.

[00:41:48] I stop everything and I'm like in it.

[00:41:50] Right?

[00:41:51] So there's this trend online about people holding space for defying gravity.

[00:41:56] Have you like heard of that?

[00:41:57] No.

[00:41:58] You know what the term holding space means?

[00:42:01] Have you heard that before?

[00:42:02] Pay respect to it sort of?

[00:42:03] Kind of.

[00:42:04] Like give it full attention?

[00:42:05] Yeah.

[00:42:05] That moment when it comes on you kind of just have to stop everything and honor it.

[00:42:10] And there's a lot of trends happening on TikTok and whatever about people holding space for

[00:42:14] defying gravity which just means you sit with the lyrics and really feel them and allow yourself

[00:42:19] that moment.

[00:42:20] Allow yourself that four minutes or whatever it is to just really feel the feeling of the

[00:42:25] song.

[00:42:25] And every song that you mentioned I do that for.

[00:42:29] Which is really interesting.

[00:42:31] But there's something about this song defying gravity that really resonates with me in terms

[00:42:36] of coming of age, in terms of like overcoming adversity and of empowerment.

[00:42:40] And I just wanted to kind of honor and hold space for the lyrics of defying gravity on this

[00:42:46] podcast to talk about how profound they could be.

[00:42:48] So do you have like a favorite lyric of the song?

[00:42:51] I know you're not like a lyric guy.

[00:42:53] Not really.

[00:42:54] Help me out.

[00:42:54] I feel like there's a few of the verses.

[00:42:57] Maybe the third verse.

[00:42:59] But maybe it's because it's just the climax.

[00:43:00] She's screaming and it just sounds so good.

[00:43:02] Yeah.

[00:43:03] This idea of like something's changed within me.

[00:43:05] Something's not the same.

[00:43:06] I'm sick of playing by the rules of someone else's game.

[00:43:09] I think that that is something, especially as a female.

[00:43:13] And like, you know, I...

[00:43:15] How deep do you want to go?

[00:43:16] I know in the books I've learned that there's some indication that Elphabobus intersects in

[00:43:22] the books.

[00:43:22] Did you pick up that thread?

[00:43:24] I'm trying to remember.

[00:43:25] The book opens with her as a baby.

[00:43:27] And there's just like, they don't know what the heck's going on.

[00:43:30] Her parents treat her like crap because she's a monster.

[00:43:33] He's writing a prequel about like Elphaba.

[00:43:35] You know, there's like five books or something.

[00:43:37] A prequel to...

[00:43:38] Yeah, like her childhood.

[00:43:40] Like all of her childhood.

[00:43:41] So she's a child at the beginning, but it jumps...

[00:43:43] It starts with her as a baby and then a toddler and then it jumps to her being 20 or whatever.

[00:43:47] Yeah, but he's writing a book now to like fill in that blank.

[00:43:50] Okay.

[00:43:50] Which is...

[00:43:51] So I don't know.

[00:43:52] I don't know that I've hit any indication of her being intersex, but I might have...

[00:43:58] You know, I read before bed every night.

[00:44:00] So sometimes I'll miss a paragraph as I fall asleep.

[00:44:02] And then there's another theory that Elphaba and Glinda were a couple, like a romantic couple involved with each other.

[00:44:10] So that adds layers of context to the song because it really is about kind of outgrowing friendship

[00:44:18] and realizing that sometimes you have to say goodbye to people you love to follow your plot and follow your lineage.

[00:44:27] And that's what the song is doing in identifying that.

[00:44:30] And if you're flying solo, at least you're flying free.

[00:44:33] This idea that sometimes you have to leave things behind...

[00:44:36] It's such a good line.

[00:44:36] And I think as a 40-ish year old woman, that ish is doing a lot of work, but it's a 40-ish year old woman.

[00:44:44] 40 plus or minus 20.

[00:44:45] Yeah, plus or minus 20 year old woman.

[00:44:48] That's something that really resonates with me because as you move through life, you do kind of have to...

[00:44:53] You outgrow people.

[00:44:54] And that's what the song is about to me.

[00:44:56] And I was really intrigued by this trend of holding space for Defying Gravity.

[00:45:01] And I just wanted to talk about that for a little bit on our podcast because I keep seeing it.

[00:45:06] And it really just means this idea of honoring the lyrics and honoring the song and allowing yourself to feel it in a profound way.

[00:45:13] And I don't think we do that enough in our current TikTok culture.

[00:45:16] I think that we try to get a clip and we try to get a soundbite, but we don't just sit and like take the space to really be in the music and really feel the feelings that it's bringing up.

[00:45:25] And for me, this song is bringing up feelings of transcendence, bringing up feelings of kind of breaking out of some chains that you might be carrying.

[00:45:32] And we're doing that lyrically and also doing that melodically with the convention that you're describing here.

[00:45:39] He's bringing up some delusions of grandeur.

[00:45:41] I love the delusions of grandeur.

[00:45:43] It's such like, like only I can solve the world's problems.

[00:45:46] No one else can do it but me.

[00:45:47] I should run for president because only I can fix it.

[00:45:50] Hey, hey, no.

[00:45:51] You know.

[00:45:52] Okay.

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:53] I mean, that's what it is.

[00:45:54] I mean, that's interesting because that's not what the song is about, but that's like the angle that Glinda's taking.

[00:45:59] Well, that's what Glinda's taking.

[00:46:01] Like Glinda's saying, like, you're having delusions of grandeur.

[00:46:03] You can't alone fix it.

[00:46:05] The only way we can fix it is to work from within and like change the hearts and minds.

[00:46:10] But the thing about Alphaba is she can fix it because she's so powerful.

[00:46:15] She has magic.

[00:46:15] She has like real magic.

[00:46:17] That like other people covet.

[00:46:19] People in power covet.

[00:46:20] And she's too powerful that they have to bring her down.

[00:46:24] Yeah.

[00:46:24] And like that's a real trope that we see in womanhood is that you can't be too powerful.

[00:46:30] You can't take up too much space.

[00:46:31] You need to be subservient.

[00:46:33] And Glinda's playing into that trope and Alphaba refuses to.

[00:46:37] And I feel like that's really powerful and inspiring.

[00:46:39] And I think we should hold space for that idea that you can be powerful and take up space as a woman and you can be the leader as a woman and not have to be a witch.

[00:46:51] Quote, unquote, you know.

[00:46:53] But she goes down in history as a witch.

[00:46:55] Well, this is rewriting history.

[00:46:57] This is what we're trying to do here with Wicked.

[00:46:59] It's like reframe it.

[00:47:00] But she goes down in history as being the Wicked Witch of the West.

[00:47:03] Nobody in that universe knows.

[00:47:06] No.

[00:47:06] She's good.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:07] They don't.

[00:47:08] And even in the first song of the musical, No One Warns the Wicked.

[00:47:13] The first song of the musical, No One Warns the Wicked.

[00:47:17] It's really powerful because Glinda's in that scene and she's watching people burn effigies of her best friend.

[00:47:23] Right.

[00:47:24] And she has to kind of play along because she's part of the machine at that point.

[00:47:28] Yeah.

[00:47:29] There's so much like social.

[00:47:31] There's so much relevance to what's happening right now socially that Wicked lays on top of that.

[00:47:36] I hope people are understanding.

[00:47:38] Like, I hope people are seeing that it's a parallel to what's happening in our world and our culture now.

[00:47:43] But maybe I'm just overthinking it.

[00:47:45] Which is why we have this podcast.

[00:47:47] Which is what I think that's what we're both doing all the time.

[00:47:50] Wow.

[00:47:50] Yeah.

[00:47:50] Yeah.

[00:47:51] It's interesting because I can't help but feel like this aspect that we're focusing on is colored by the fact that this is half of the story because you don't know necessarily how it ends up.

[00:48:05] You don't know that things don't work.

[00:48:07] Now, you do if you've seen The Wizard of Oz.

[00:48:09] You know she dies.

[00:48:10] But the way that all goes down and its relationship to some of the other characters and how they relate to what happens in The Wizard of Oz.

[00:48:17] I just remember from seeing it years ago.

[00:48:19] Like, is the tenor of the conversation a year from now when they release part two gonna be like, I don't know, it feels hard to focus on this as this uplifting thing.

[00:48:30] When you know what happens next.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:32] And this song isn't in the second act.

[00:48:34] No.

[00:48:34] There's some good songs in the second act.

[00:48:36] Whatever the love song one is such a good song.

[00:48:39] But we have left Defying Gravity a year behind come time.

[00:48:45] It's one of those, like, how is the second half of this not gonna just be a big bummer?

[00:48:49] Yeah.

[00:48:50] I don't know.

[00:48:50] I mean, I know there's things at the end.

[00:48:52] But I feel like, sort of like in Rent, Rent is a bummer.

[00:48:57] Oh, yeah.

[00:48:57] But, I mean, gosh, the reprise of I'll Cover You is like the saddest and most beautiful thing.

[00:49:03] But what do you have in the middle?

[00:49:04] You have the second act starts with Seasons of Love, which is like, okay, this is about AIDS.

[00:49:10] This is about starving artists.

[00:49:11] This is about gentrification.

[00:49:12] What is it?

[00:49:13] No, it's about love.

[00:49:14] You have this anchor point.

[00:49:15] And when you see the musical, you can catch that.

[00:49:18] The anchor point, what is this really about, is in part one, not part two.

[00:49:22] And so when you see the ending, like, are they almost gonna have to start with a mini version

[00:49:28] of Defying Gravity to kind of remind you this is the spirit that you should be holding on

[00:49:32] to?

[00:49:32] Because when you see the stage play, you do hold on to Defying Gravity, even though things

[00:49:37] go so topsy-turvy in the second act.

[00:49:39] Are they gonna, I mean, again, haven't seen even the first act myself, but how do we keep

[00:49:44] that message when really we're dealing with two separate story arcs now, separated by a year?

[00:49:49] And the second act, for me, they have a lot of ground to cover between how the first act

[00:49:56] ends and where Wizard of Oz starts.

[00:49:59] Sure.

[00:49:59] A lot of stuff has to happen to get from point A to point C, or I guess point A to point B.

[00:50:06] To get from point B to point C.

[00:50:07] Right.

[00:50:07] Cool.

[00:50:08] Points are involved.

[00:50:09] Yeah, there's a points thing involved.

[00:50:11] And I'm curious to see how they do it, because I know everything that has to happen in the second

[00:50:15] part of Wicked.

[00:50:16] And it does change the arc and change the developmental narrative for the characters.

[00:50:22] And I'm wondering how much they explore it in the films.

[00:50:24] I'm excited to watch it.

[00:50:25] Yeah.

[00:50:26] Do you know that they sang this live when they filmed the movie?

[00:50:30] I did not know that.

[00:50:31] And that's wonderful.

[00:50:32] I'm very surprised by that, actually.

[00:50:34] No one does that.

[00:50:35] Like, she's flying on a broom doing her own stunts singing Defying Gravity, like while they're

[00:50:40] filming it.

[00:50:41] But, okay, but the version we're hearing, we're hearing her in a studio, but she just

[00:50:46] actually sang it while they were doing the shooting of it?

[00:50:49] All of it.

[00:50:50] Okay.

[00:50:50] The whole film.

[00:50:52] Okay.

[00:50:52] So, like, Fiero's, like, you haven't seen the movie, Mark.

[00:50:55] They're not lip syncing, you're saying.

[00:50:56] They're not.

[00:50:56] Fiero's, like, in the library, upside down.

[00:50:59] Jonathan Bailey's upside down on that freaking thing, singing.

[00:51:03] Awesome.

[00:51:03] Yes, awesome.

[00:51:04] So I just wanted to hold space for that, because I thought that that was an important

[00:51:08] thing.

[00:51:08] You mentioned you played flute.

[00:51:10] Were you in musical theater pits, or were you in musical theater shows when you were

[00:51:14] young?

[00:51:14] You know what?

[00:51:16] Think about this.

[00:51:17] I was in musical theater shows, but in the show Godspell, right, I had a flute solo in

[00:51:24] one of the songs on stage.

[00:51:26] You were on stage.

[00:51:27] So you were not in the pit as a part of the orchestra.

[00:51:30] You were a character.

[00:51:31] I don't know Godspell.

[00:51:32] Yeah, I was just like, there was a flute part in one of the songs.

[00:51:35] I can't tell you what song it was now, but there was a flute solo, and I was, like,

[00:51:39] in the chorus of Godspell, and they're like, oh, Nicole's really good at the flute, because

[00:51:42] I was.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:43] And they were like, let's mic her up, and she can play it on stage.

[00:51:46] And I sat on the side of the stage in my little hippie outfit and played my little flute

[00:51:49] solo.

[00:51:50] Crushed it.

[00:51:50] I, too, was on stage music once for a musical.

[00:51:55] But normally, I would, as a favor to a friend, be in the pit playing guitar.

[00:51:58] As an adult?

[00:51:59] Or, like, when you were in high school?

[00:52:00] Adult.

[00:52:01] So I didn't, I was too cool or not cool enough to be in the musicals in high school.

[00:52:06] And, but by the time I was in college and grad school, when I was friends with the conductors

[00:52:10] and the music teachers in town, I would just be in their pit.

[00:52:13] I never did the thing where I was making money as a professional guitar player as a pit, but

[00:52:18] I was, like, doing it as a favor throughout grad school in particular.

[00:52:22] Like, guitar and rent, or guitar two in The Wedding Singer, the music, stuff like that, right?

[00:52:27] Guitar two in The Wedding Singer, the musical.

[00:52:30] But I was never on stage except for...

[00:52:32] To rock bottom.

[00:52:33] Except for...

[00:52:34] Right.

[00:52:35] Yeah, the movie's better.

[00:52:37] Except for I was in Anything Goes.

[00:52:40] Fast forward to a episode we're going to do about barbershop quartets.

[00:52:44] Okay.

[00:52:45] My barbershop quartet was recruited to be in the Cole Porter show Anything Goes because there's

[00:52:51] a barbershop quartet of sailors.

[00:52:54] Oh my gosh.

[00:52:55] I'm literally in a sailor costume on stage singing.

[00:52:58] We only were in a few songs, but there were a couple that were just us featured.

[00:53:02] Kind of like in The Music Man, how they have, like, a barbershop quartet.

[00:53:05] It's similar to that.

[00:53:06] So that was my only time ever being on stage as opposed to in a pit.

[00:53:11] But anyways...

[00:53:12] Do you have pictures of that?

[00:53:14] I probably...

[00:53:15] I don't know.

[00:53:16] Did a friend watch it and take pictures?

[00:53:18] Is it on YouTube?

[00:53:19] It's...

[00:53:19] Like your Dream Hydra music video that I've watched, like, 20 times.

[00:53:22] Awesome.

[00:53:23] Thank you.

[00:53:24] So good.

[00:53:24] It better not be on YouTube.

[00:53:26] The...

[00:53:26] That was a high school production and I'm some 20-something because they were like...

[00:53:30] Oh, it's creepy, bud.

[00:53:31] It was weird because we were, like, in the musical and there's these high schoolers and we're just,

[00:53:38] like, showing up as ringers and we're like, this is just bizarre to have these 17-year-olds,

[00:53:41] like...

[00:53:41] And you know, you know, drama kids that there were, like, there was a barbershop quartet in

[00:53:46] the high school that they were like, how dare they bring in these?

[00:53:48] We could have done it.

[00:53:49] Because I was friends with the music director of the school.

[00:53:51] Who are these guys?

[00:53:52] They're weirdos.

[00:53:53] Did you go to the cast party?

[00:53:54] No, absolutely not.

[00:53:56] Did I go to the cast party?

[00:53:57] Smart.

[00:53:57] So I did go to the cast party for the musical that I wrote.

[00:54:02] Hold the phone.

[00:54:03] The musical you wrote?

[00:54:05] What is it?

[00:54:06] A musical.

[00:54:07] And we are, listeners, not going to talk about it right now.

[00:54:12] Would I want to talk about it?

[00:54:13] I would absolutely love to talk about it.

[00:54:15] But you know what?

[00:54:15] We already did a Dream Hydra episode.

[00:54:19] I'm not going to do more than one self-refer.

[00:54:22] What was the name of it?

[00:54:23] Can you just tell us the name of the musical?

[00:54:24] The musical was called...

[00:54:26] Oh, buddy.

[00:54:28] And we can talk about it.

[00:54:30] We're not talking about it this season.

[00:54:31] Okay, that's fine.

[00:54:32] Because they've heard enough, Poppany.

[00:54:33] They hear the ad music.

[00:54:34] They heard Dream Hydra.

[00:54:35] But I went to that cast party.

[00:54:38] But that was grown-ups.

[00:54:39] That wasn't kids.

[00:54:40] That was grown-ups doing that musical.

[00:54:42] That seems appropriate.

[00:54:42] Yeah.

[00:54:43] It was not a potential crime for me to be hanging out with them.

[00:54:48] Okay, Nicole.

[00:54:49] Let's do the outro stuff, except it's recitative.

[00:54:52] Go.

[00:54:53] Never mind.

[00:54:53] The music is hosted by me.

[00:54:55] Mark Poppany, who also produces.

[00:54:58] And Nicole Vatcher.

[00:54:59] I'm not doing that.

[00:55:01] Please be sure.

[00:55:02] Let us know what you think on social media.

[00:55:05] We're Never Music Pod on all major platforms.

[00:55:08] You can also email us at nevermusicpod at gmail.com.

[00:55:11] And every so often, we'll do a mailbag episode where we'll answer all of your burning questions.

[00:55:17] And please be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review.

[00:55:22] Thanks for listening.

[00:55:24] Okay.

[00:55:25] That's fine.

[00:55:26] Okay.

[00:55:26] Okay.

[00:55:26] Bye.

[00:55:27] Bye.