Who’s ready for a feeding frenzy? This week we are joined by podcast super-host Matt Kelly from the Geekscape network to talk about the mid-90s! For a wild few years, it seemed like the record labels were signing every quirky band they could to try to recreate the magic of Nirvana. We talk trend-chasing corporations, confusing genre labels, Mark’s deep regrets, and more in this wide-ranging conversation. Check us out next week for a regular episode!
Music heard in this episode: Butthole Surfers - “Pepper”, Fastball - “The Way”, U2 - “Bullet the Blue Sky”, U2 - “Staring at the Sun”, Foo Fighters - “Alone and Easy Target”, Local H - “Bound for the Floor”
Send us your thoughts at NeverMusicPod@gmail.com
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00:00 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm also realizing that you too know way more about music than me because you're just naming tracks and like, oh, yeah, yeah, you too.
00:07 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Remember when they took over my iPhone and I was mad like, Well, one of us has been trained and the other one went to grad school to study music.
00:15 --> 00:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
00:15 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know which one you categorized me and of those two examples, but because I think that I did go to grad school for music?
00:20 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I did.
00:22 --> 00:23 [SPEAKER_04]: And then you're the trained one.
00:33 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, I'm Nicole and I'm Mark and this is never mind the music.
00:37 --> 00:40 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a sidetracked day and we have a guest.
00:40 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Aren't you supposed to say who are we talking about to wait every time?
00:44 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_04]: What are we talking to?
00:45 --> 00:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Who are we talking?
00:46 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_03]: No, who are we talking to today, Mark?
00:49 --> 00:55 [SPEAKER_04]: We are talking to Matt Kelly from the Geekscape Network and a lot of podcasts.
00:55 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_04]: So let me see how many I can do off the top of my head.
00:58 --> 00:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
00:59 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_04]: One hit thunder, Christmas 365, Christian cringe, weird algorithm, horror movie night.
01:09 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe is that where I stop right now, help me out.
01:12 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_04]: So welcome, Matt Kelly.
01:13 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the podcast.
01:14 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, those are the ones I would claim.
01:15 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_05]: I also produce YA, OK, and I occasionally appear on that.
01:19 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_05]: But that is not one of my main ones.
01:23 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So we talked about Christmas 365 on our podcast.
01:28 --> 01:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It came up and probably a Christmas episode that we were doing.
01:31 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And I had some questions.
01:33 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I was really just astounded that there was that much Christmas content to cover, but Mark was like, oh, they're so much.
01:40 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So now that you're here, can you just tell us what that is?
01:42 --> 01:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I was so curious.
01:44 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_05]: So one of my favorite podcasts ever was this podcast called The Gilmore Guys, where it was two guys reviewing every episode of Gilmore Girls.
01:54 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_05]: and it like blew up to the level that they were like playing sold out concert venues like doing their podcast and what I thought was so charming about the podcast was that it was a very explicit podcast about a very wholesome thing and I was like what other like overwhelmingly wholesome thing could I do at our rate at podcast about?
02:15 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I had a friend who I knew loved Christmas as much as I did, and he was going through a divorce at the time.
02:22 --> 02:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And like to me, I'm like, oh, I want to help someone through trauma.
02:27 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And one of the ways I can do that is like come up with an excuse for us to do an activity together on a weekly basis to have interaction.
02:35 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_05]: So I called him and was like, hey, would you want to do a podcast about Christmas?
02:39 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And he was like,
02:43 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_05]: But there are, I mean, Netflix probably produces about 10 new Christmas movies every year.
02:48 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Hallmark pumps them out.
02:50 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_05]: There's like eight Christmas albums a year.
02:53 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_05]: So like what we do with the show is start it.
02:57 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll start with October in October.
03:00 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_05]: We dedicate it just to Christmas hard stuff.
03:02 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_05]: So we watch like a tale from the crypt Christmas episode and we'll watch like Silent Night Deadly Night and.
03:08 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_05]: any of those movies, November and December is when we do like what we call our heavy hitters, the ones that are like our childhood favorites that meant the world to us and that like make us think of Christmas.
03:19 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And then January to March, we record those episodes through the month of December and it's us reviewing every new piece of Christmas content that dropped in the previous year.
03:31 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_05]: So that we get like a three month break from talking about Christmas from
03:36 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And then starting in March, it's kind of like, oh, in new season of Abad Elementary is launching, let's watch one of the old Christmas episodes to tie in to that season, or they we did that with the bear.
03:49 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_05]: We watched the forks episode of the bear when the new season was coming out.
03:53 --> 03:59 [SPEAKER_05]: We just kind of tried to pay attention to what's happening in pop culture and tie it into that.
03:59 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_05]: We want it to not be obnoxiously Christmasy in July, because that sucks for us too.
04:05 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_05]: The idea of an all year-round Christmas podcast sounds like absolute hell to you.
04:11 --> 04:11 [SPEAKER_05]: Still check it out.
04:11 --> 04:12 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you'll have fun with it.
04:12 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_04]: This podcast comes out in a couple days on Tuesday, January 6th, which happens to be the literal 12th day of Christmas.
04:22 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_04]: You've still got time for it to be seasonally appropriate.
04:25 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, tomorrow, it will be seasonally inappropriate, which still might be a great idea, but you've still got time later today to listen to on topic Christmas content.
04:36 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm over Christmas.
04:38 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know?
04:40 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_05]: If you take that song for face value and every time that they start a new line, you assume that they are getting now a second partrogenapair tree or they're getting 12 partages.
04:52 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Not just one.
04:53 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
04:53 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know how many gifts you receive?
04:56 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_04]: It's got to be a few hundred, right?
04:58 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_05]: 364 because the point of that song is that Christmas can happen all year, baby.
05:10 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, but that's uh, I'm not here to talk about my Christmas block.
05:14 --> 05:26 [SPEAKER_04]: So Matt, what are we here for so Matt, I will say you deserve accolades because you actually are a professional podcaster in the sense that the rest of us have to go to work.
05:26 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_04]: You are currently at work.
05:28 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm currently at work because it's not it's the worst of paying job that I've loved the most.
05:34 --> 05:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately as a musician, I can tell you that I can empathize with that for sure.
05:40 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_04]: but we are here to talk about music among other things because we invited Matt to come on our podcast because there's so many things you can talk about from Christmas to music to horror movies, but you had a very specific thing you wanted to bring to us and rant about.
05:57 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_05]: I've talked about this on the one-hit Thunder podcast probably more than any other podcast, but I have this theory
06:05 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_05]: It's not even a theory.
06:06 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_05]: My personal favorite time period for music is like 1995 to 1997.
06:13 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_05]: As a kid, you grew up listening to alternative radio at that time.
06:19 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that there was this magical thing that happened.
06:22 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And unfortunately, the magical thing begins with Kurt Cobain's death, but Kurt Cobain dies in 1994.
06:31 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_05]: and the record companies were not ready to let go of what Nirvana was, this lightning and a bottle thing.
06:40 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_05]: And we just get these three years of the strangest
06:47 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_05]: like shot in the dark bands getting signed and having minor hits on alternative radio and like that was to me is just the most incredible time to ever be listening to music because like
07:02 --> 07:10 [SPEAKER_05]: For most of music history, pop music is a very specific definitive sound for every single decade.
07:10 --> 07:17 [SPEAKER_05]: 80s pop has a very specific sound, 70s pop has a very distinct sound, 90s pop also has a very distinct sound.
07:17 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_05]: You can do that with rock music, too.
07:19 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_05]: There is a 70s rock sound.
07:21 --> 07:24 [SPEAKER_05]: There is what the rock music of the 80s sounded like.
07:24 --> 07:39 [SPEAKER_05]: When Nirvana and Pearl Jam and all of these Seattle bands started blowing up, it kind of blurred these lines because you're looking at, you know, the big four of the Seattle sound are Pearl Jam Nirvana, Allison Chains and Soundgarden.
07:39 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And I would argue that none of those four bands sound like each other at all, but we're still grouped into the singular genre that was your crunch, right?
07:49 --> 07:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Are we on a glance in that?
07:50 --> 08:01 [SPEAKER_03]: I agree with that for sure and I think if you compare Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, I do lump them together, but you're right, they are very different.
08:01 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_05]: And I would say they're the two that are the closest in a new sound.
08:05 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Like Allison chains is borderline a heavy metal band.
08:08 --> 08:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Sure, sludge metal.
08:09 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Nirvana is borderline a punk band.
08:12 --> 08:15 [SPEAKER_04]: So much of what you're saying is really a previous guess we've had and stuff.
08:15 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of this relates to our conversations about blondie and about punk and hope punk and all that from a few months to go where a lot of it is place in time, right?
08:24 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_04]: So like this is why when you hear arguably a sound alike band.
08:30 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_04]: the first Stuntable Pilots record.
08:32 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Look, I'm a San Diego.
08:34 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I like Stuntable Pilots, and that first record sounds a lot like Pearl Jam, but by virtue of it being from San Diego and not from Seattle, it is sort of necessarily post-grunge and not grunge, right?
08:47 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Because being baked into the location,
08:54 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_04]: five eight changing into five four time signature crazy stuff on one of our albums has nothing to do with smells like teen spirit.
09:02 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_04]: It still has more to do with it than sex type thing by Stone Temple Pilots does just because they were going to play it the same shows.
09:09 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_05]: You also get something similar with the smashing pumpkins too.
09:12 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Where the smashing pumpkins is very easy to lump into that same style, but because they weren't Seattle proper, they kind of got put in a sort of separate category, right?
09:22 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_05]: But what happens is all of a sudden Kurt Cobain who's like the figurehead of all of this to the mainstream media is gone and yeah, like it's a combination of they've already signed a bunch of these bands that Kurt Cobain likes like the gets and Daniel Johnston.
09:43 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, like these weird avant-garde artists are getting major record label deals that they have almost no business having.
09:51 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_04]: People that people know because he wore a t-shirt with the band name.
09:56 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, one of his shows.
09:57 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_04]: One of them.
09:58 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_04]: One photo shoot or unplug or whatever.
10:00 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so that starts to happen.
10:02 --> 10:10 [SPEAKER_05]: But they're like, all right, well, we signed these bands that hurt like so we got to push these guys and then simultaneously they're trying to find the next Nirvana.
10:10 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_05]: But the example I always use is and then they stumble onto a band like but whole surfers and are like well, let's give them
10:19 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_04]: all pipe in pepper or something like that and then because imagine and I don't know exactly if I've got the years bright, but imagine like alternative rock radio would have pepper-by-butt hold surfers.
10:47 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And then fast ball the way would be the next song.
11:07 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_04]: And my do-facy teenage self did not think that was weird.
11:12 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_04]: When it's very weird, it's very, very weird.
11:15 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And compared to a lot of eras, I think this comes back to our conversation with David on generational music theorem and all that stuff.
11:22 --> 11:35 [SPEAKER_04]: How when you're in the era, things feel very separate, but later they feel more united, right in a sense that I can listen to Devo and Michael McDonald and not feel weird about it, but probably,
11:35 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_04]: In 1978, maybe I couldn't have it would have felt too separate.
11:38 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
11:39 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_04]: These disparate worlds on alternative radio felt somehow unified, even though, sonically, they're way more different even than we were talking about the grunge bands being down.
11:48 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, and I think part of that is because alternative rock, just based on its name alone.
11:55 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_05]: It is the alternative to the other rock station music.
11:59 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_05]: it's a little bit more aggressive.
12:01 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_05]: It's that 120 minutes on MTV style of music.
12:05 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_05]: That's why as crazy as it is to think about, listen to, say, bullet the blue sky by you, too, on the Joshua
12:29 --> 12:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Not a band that I think anyone would put into an alternative grunge group, right?
12:42 --> 12:48 [SPEAKER_05]: But they would get played on the alternative radio stations all the time, and you listen to like bullet the blues guy, that is a grunge song.
12:49 --> 12:54 [SPEAKER_05]: The guitar effects, the anger in it, the way that Bono will just like,
12:54 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_05]: go on a mini rant in the middle of the song before it breaks into chaos.
12:58 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_05]: It is a grunt song from 1987, similar to how REM, who was so jungle pop, was so wrapped up into that alternative rock scene at the same time.
13:10 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_04]: But you don't hear those guys as alternative because like I think we can't equate like Grunge is one type of one in type right Yeah, you could blow up really far and call punk and stuff like that alternative music too But really like alternative rock could like okay, you cited rm and you too, which existed first in the 80s, right?
13:29 --> 13:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and those feel more like alternative rock as an outgrowth of post punk Which is an everything we talked about on the hope punk episode
13:37 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, listen to early you two and it's sort of post punky, but but not grungy right now kind of a different thing if you think of like Jesus and Mary chain like that's stuff's alternative without being Grunge it predates grunge or gosh violent fans violent fans that's a very kind of rock band but I think we're talking about college rock like we're talking about college radio right that's what it would have been called at the time is the college radio bands.
13:59 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
13:59 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_05]: But what I think is interesting, I think this is why I go to you too, specifically, is that you too, throughout the 80s, into the early 90s, is so clearly like part of the inspiration of what alternative rock becomes.
14:16 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_05]: But then by the time alternative rock is having its time in the sun, it's almost like YouTube shifts to just being a generic radio rock bit at that exact same time.
14:26 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_05]: you're talking like mysterious ways like.
14:28 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
14:28 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Octo and baby era.
14:29 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
14:29 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Like that's really interesting.
14:30 --> 14:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, because think about that.
14:32 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, as all of this is happening, they put out Actong, baby.
14:35 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_05]: They put out, um, what was the zoo one?
14:39 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Not Zootopia.
14:40 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_05]: No, not Zootopia.
14:41 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Almost saying I can't remember.
14:43 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Was it Zuropa?
14:44 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_05]: But then they put out pop, which is like widely considered one of the worst albums they've ever released.
14:50 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think part of it is because it's such generic radio music from a band that was so important to all turn into music.
14:59 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that there's some great songs on pop.
15:01 --> 15:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Staring at the sun was like a binder hit off of that.
15:03 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_05]: That I think is like one of the best YouTube songs.
15:06 --> 15:08 [SPEAKER_05]: But that feels like an alternative rock song.
15:22 --> 15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Just give it a go.
15:25 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Not the rest of that album.
15:26 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, when you get to like, when God would send his angels and disco tech, you're like, okay, this is that quite right.
15:32 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_04]: The cold, do you know any of this music you're chuckling along, but like, have we lost yet?
15:35 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm chuckling along.
15:36 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm realizing a lot here.
15:38 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm realizing.
15:39 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm much, much, much younger than you guys because I don't, I wasn't like listening to music at this time.
15:46 --> 15:47 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like in diapers.
15:48 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_04]: No, we've established.
15:49 --> 15:53 [SPEAKER_04]: You are measurably older than me, right by a couple of months.
15:54 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, also like during this period that you're discussing, this like late 90s, mid to late 90s, I was for sure heavy into Eric Clapton, crossbeats sales nation young,
16:08 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I was working backwards, I was like pretending to be a hippie, like going to grateful dead cover bands and stuff like that like that was my vibe So I'm realizing that is you're talking and I'm also realizing that you to know way more about music than me because you're just naming tracks and like oh yeah, yeah, you too.
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Remember when they took over my iPhone and I was mad like
16:30 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, one of us has been trained, and the other one went to grad school to study music.
16:35 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know which one you categorized me and of those two examples, because I think that I did go to grad school for music?
16:40 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I did.
16:41 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And then you're the trained one.
16:56 --> 17:01 [SPEAKER_03]: I have like questions, like more theoretical questions about this label of alternative music.
17:01 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_03]: So, we're, in this time period, we're grouping alternative music really is something that doesn't fit into any other established genre or something that's literally an alternative to what we've been fed already by the music industry.
17:14 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So, note it.
17:16 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_03]: When in your perception does alternative music get played so much that it flips over to pop, or flips over to mainstream, or flips over to something else.
17:28 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And you're talking about it a little bit with you, too.
17:31 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Right?
17:32 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_03]: How they were coded as maybe alternative, but then later on, they transitioned to more mainstream, literally having an album called pop, which admittedly I've never heard, but it sounds awful.
17:41 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not going to listen to it.
17:42 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry you two like I'm wondering when do we switch I think about 97 98 like if Nirvana was still alive Yeah, well, that's so Chuck claustrum in one of my favorite people to ever write about music has this book The thing it's the book eating the dinosaur.
17:59 --> 18:07 [SPEAKER_05]: He has this chapter where he proposes What if Kurt Cobain never dies
18:07 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_05]: but Rivers Cuomo dies after Pinkerton comes out.
18:11 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, does that change the way we talk about both of those bands?
18:15 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Do we now look at Weezer as this unbelievable band that had so much potential in how we were robbed of all of the greatness that they would have because they only got two albums?
18:25 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_05]: But then like,
18:27 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Kurt Cobain, you mentioned Eric Clapton, he's like, Kurt Cobain, we literally could see having this kind of pseudo lame Eric Clapton doing a lounge version of Linoleum on MTV unplugged in his 50s.
18:40 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my God.
18:41 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're like seeing them in concert being like, play never mind.
18:47 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind the music lore, everybody.
18:49 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_04]: I have to chime in.
18:50 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_04]: On one of our male bag episodes, we were dragged through the coals by a listener about our comments.
18:58 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_04]: In flamatory comments, really, about weasers, that person who wrote in was Matthew Kelly, who we are talking to right this second.
19:06 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_04]: So...
19:07 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So, to your point, I mean, that's a really well-made quotation of Cluster Man that, yeah, if Rivers had died after Pinkerton, that would have been a legendary two album run, right?
19:21 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And he specifically would have been viewed as more of a genius and not sort of like
19:27 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_04]: grown in to be kind of, you know, some people certain podcasts might hassle them about their later music, but also like you can imagine like Matt Sharp, I think Matt Sharp was still in the band during Pekerton, right?
19:38 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
19:38 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Going off and creating the rentals and it would have like had this.
19:41 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I know we already had started it, but the writers would have been the writers.
19:44 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so like we would have been looking at one of the other guys in Wezer and been like, well, you know, that guy's really made quite a career instead of, you know, Matt Sharp has like post rock bands I've heard and stuff and he's still low stuff, but like the other guys wezer have, you know, orbited Wezer essentially.
20:00 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_04]: That's really interesting to the sort of question of what happens when alternative stops to be alternative.
20:07 --> 20:13 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not the psychologist in this trio on this call, but that tension was troubling to some of those musicians.
20:14 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that started.
20:14 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_05]: I would say that that was a very in 1992.
20:17 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I'm like, yeah, like as early as it happened, it was like this organic underground thing, you know, all of them hate at the label Grunge.
20:27 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_05]: I, you can find interviews from like 1992, I know that there's one where Kirk Cobain's like, they're fucking selling flannel for $500 at the gap now because it's, it's brunch where like he's like, I bought this for a dollar at the goodwill.
20:41 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Like it was this like commercialization of what was a very genuine underground.
20:47 --> 21:15 [SPEAKER_05]: seen that all of them disliked and I think you know you started getting issues even as early as 94 there was I loved this band and I still love this band but the hatred that would come out towards a band like Bush for being like poser grunge you know like these pretty boys doing grunge music now and it's like doesn't matter that that 16 stone album is fucking incredible that's good song
21:15 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_04]: I think Kurt was aware of that and not comfortable with it and I'm not going to say that's what led to his death.
21:22 --> 21:24 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's part of it.
21:25 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_04]: It's in there, you know, this idea that this has been commodified and that's really not what he wanted.
21:31 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_04]: And then five years later, you say 1992, right?
21:33 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_04]: But like by the time we get to like, I was saying 97's the real breaking point.
21:38 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
21:39 --> 21:45 [SPEAKER_04]: By the time we get to Eve 6 and 3rd I blind and mashed up a slice and these bands that are like,
21:45 --> 22:07 [SPEAKER_04]: alternative bands that really are just that's the new pop rock and I thought of those bands as alternative bands when I was a you know high school or whatever but they were the new pop rock and then that term became modern rock and so we had to create a new category that already existed but amplify the category of indie right because indie like think early 2000s
22:07 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Those were essentially functionally equivalent bands to alternative bands a decade earlier, but we couldn't say alternative anymore because alternative was topping the charts at that point.
22:19 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_04]: At least sometimes.
22:20 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_05]: There's this very interesting thing that always happens.
22:23 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_05]: I've noticed as you look back into the past where it's like,
22:28 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_05]: the battle of being true to your roots in the rock while also being successful in on movie soundtracks has just been like this eternal battle because it's like looking at I remember my senior year of high school 2004.
22:44 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_05]: All we listened to was the new album from modus mouse and like that was on a major record label.
22:51 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_05]: It was weird as shit, but that was still being labeled indie even though it was very much a massive album on a major record label like like even the term indie that should have just always been a band on an independent record label then gets co-opted to be the subscriber of a certain odd
23:13 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And we even see that when you think of when Paramore was first signed, that we talked about this on a previous episode too, that the label made a a pseudo label that no one heard of to promote Paramore under, so no one would know that it was our CA, whatever it was.
23:29 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I think they could be branded as like an indie band or a lesser known band.
23:34 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to be speaking out of turn here.
23:35 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I think they had signed them to do fuel by ramen records.
23:40 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_05]: which was like a somewhat known indie like emo record label and the only reason I say that is because I, you know, I do one hit thunder with Chris Fafioce of the band punchline.
23:51 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And I know that he was sent when his band was on Fulbairam and they were sent to Japan with Paramore as Paramore to be their opener.
24:00 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, hey, we're breaking this new band.
24:03 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_05]: And then it was only when I was listening to that episode and like, oh, this band was always destined
24:09 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But they were, but so fueled by ramen at that time because fueled by ramen was a pure indie label, right?
24:16 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_04]: But were they owned by Atlantic yet?
24:19 --> 24:19 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
24:19 --> 24:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Was it still owned by the drummer from Lesson Jake?
24:22 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_04]: It was always, it was just like by the drummer from Lesson Jake.
24:24 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But I want to say that the paramour thing happened right after fallout boy blew them up into the stratosphere.
24:32 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, because that makes sense because that first pair more records like what probably like 2008 or something like that maybe 2004 2005 and really like the all falls apart album I think came out around the same time as the fallout boy one
24:47 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, all we know is falling 2005.
24:49 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
24:50 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_05]: So I think fallout boys out most 2004.
24:54 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_05]: So it makes sense, right?
24:55 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_05]: That this fallout boy song out of nowhere, the sugar we're going down song becomes like the biggest song to ever hit the radio.
25:05 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_05]: And this small indie label that has them signed is now taking all these deals from major record labels.
25:12 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Of course.
25:13 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_05]: their next like fallout boy tight band they're going to want to say how about you guys put their first record out.
25:20 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_05]: So then they get the street red and then we'll go from there.
25:24 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Totally.
25:26 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's clever marketing even for like an alternative indie band that you You want it to be under the radar.
25:32 --> 25:36 [SPEAKER_03]: You want it to be kind of like the out group of music that only certain people know about.
25:36 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_03]: It is all designed and packaged in a way to get us to buy into that idea and that romantic idea that you're the first people that found this band and you know more than other people.
25:47 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's a part of how we listen to music.
25:49 --> 25:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you guys?
25:51 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I still, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm just around it by CDs and just laying down and pulled up.
25:58 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_05]: I give them from the ground, but like some of my nostalgia of first loving music is like
26:05 --> 26:35 [SPEAKER_05]: sitting next to the CD player in my bedroom with the booklet open rating the lyrics coming through who they thank to the right-down bands that I want it to find their albums at them all the next week like just like really dissecting it like a science and and treating the thank yous is like this algorithm for new music for me to discover because if green day thinks this band is cool then they must be really good and I gotta go check out their stuff next
26:35 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's all this all started right this whole idea of Nirvana and alternative music that Kirk O'Bane was wearing these t-shirts of bands that no one really knew about.
26:44 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Mountains or whatever.
26:44 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And it promotes some people knew about and promoted it up to the like the stratosphere.
26:49 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going back to this idea of, you know, this
26:53 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_03]: We are Nirvana like what if right what if we are burned out right I mean you can play this what if with anything what of Chris Farley didn't die would he have Kevin James's career like who's to say but the idea that I'm sticking with is the food fighter piece yeah because if Nirvana had a longer career there would be no food fighters and I know that Nirvana is influential but I think hot take the
27:20 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I'm stumbling because I know you can say a lot of cool.
27:23 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I think they're better.
27:25 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I don't disagree like I think that there are better musicians in the food fighters.
27:34 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that they are better at writing what is good rock music.
27:40 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think the food fighters have ever truly put out a awful album.
27:44 --> 27:50 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think that the food fighters make the complete opposite type of music that Nirvana was trying to make.
27:50 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_05]: It's hard to compare the two.
27:53 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_05]: The story that I've heard and I hope that it's true is, you know, David Grohl was working on two fighters.
28:01 --> 28:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Hugh and your David.
28:02 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Famous for full naming everybody.
28:04 --> 28:06 [SPEAKER_04]: David, not David Grohl.
28:06 --> 28:06 [SPEAKER_04]: He's David Grohl.
28:07 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I treat everyone with respect around here.
28:08 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Marcus.
28:10 --> 28:15 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's Mark Hallamu.
28:15 --> 28:27 [SPEAKER_05]: So Dave Groll was doing the food fighter self-titled album completely by himself playing all the instruments and this was like a thing that he was doing as a side project while he was the drummer in Irvana
28:28 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_05]: and the first song that he had completed is on the debut album is called a loan and easy target and he apparently played that song for Kurt and he's talked about like he just walks that he was talking to Kurt and he's like I want you to listen to the song that I wrote.
28:57 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_05]: And he plays the song and he said, like, Kurt's like laying in a bathtub and he like puts on the headphones and he listens to the entire song.
29:05 --> 29:06 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, he's in the tub.
29:06 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_05]: He's smoking a cigarette.
29:07 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_05]: He finishes the song.
29:09 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_05]: He takes off the headphones and he just holds my face and kisses me and says, I'm so glad I don't have to be the only songwriter in this band anymore.
29:17 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And then he said, Oh, no, that's for a different.
29:25 --> 29:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's like really sad, but you know, pork or co-bane.
29:29 --> 29:31 [SPEAKER_04]: That song is quite grungy, though, right?
29:32 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's not big me, which is more jangle pop or for all the cows, whatever that is.
29:36 --> 29:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, alone in easy target, I'll pipe in an example.
29:38 --> 29:40 [SPEAKER_04]: That would be a good nerve on a song.
29:41 --> 29:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Even sung by Dave Grohl, it would be cool.
29:43 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_04]: It's punky in that way, right?
29:45 --> 29:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Can we like back up almost to the source of this conversation?
29:49 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that Matt and I were offline going back and forth
29:55 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_04]: the sort of record label feeding frenzy that happened because it's not just that like there's a way we get to but whole surfers and then bear naked ladies immediately following on the radio we get there because of what the record labels are doing and i think it's such a weird moment because we end up i think maybe one of you knows about this a little bit a lot of one hit wonders because of that hot right because of you got them
30:21 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to sign this this ban, whether it's a new ban that hasn't proved for themselves or whatever, or it's like, well, let's put modest mouse on a record label even though they've been on an indie will put them on a major flaming lips or whatever these bands that were indie that then joined majors.
30:37 --> 30:40 [SPEAKER_04]: And then a lot of those bands would get one try, right?
30:40 --> 30:53 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if it's just they weren't getting development deals, you know, where's like they would, uh, essentially have time and money to grow, or if it was a kind of throw everything at the wall and see what sticks immediately in a band and ship.
30:53 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
30:54 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I won't hit wonder guru.
30:55 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you got?
30:56 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_05]: How that work?
30:57 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of them, like, and we've heard this story for so many one hit wonders.
31:02 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, especially when we're talking about alternative one hit wonders where it's like these bands get signed in 95, they get one single out there and like I think what people don't understand is what we consider a hit song and what a record label considers a hit song.
31:22 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_05]: They are dramatically different things.
31:24 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_05]: So like the example I always like to give is Nirvana like people will sit there and think about Nirvana and be like Nirvana was this huge band if you look at the billboard hot 100 they like had maybe three songs that ever were so big that they crossed off of alternative rock.
31:41 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_05]: into the hot 100.
31:43 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it was like smells like teen spirit lithium maybe and then I think the third one is after Kurt died the you know your right song like all right so I got it I got it smells like teen spirit is the highest charting one 91 six it reached number six.
31:59 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Come as you are, same record, same year, reached 32.
32:03 --> 32:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, that actually reached that in 92.
32:06 --> 32:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Lithium hit 64.
32:08 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_04]: And then, yeah, a few years later, you know your right is 45.
32:12 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_04]: So they only cracked the top 40 technically twice and the top 100 four times.
32:19 --> 32:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, that's not huge numbers by a record company that maybe, obviously they're not expecting it to be like Brittany and Beck Street boys.
32:27 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_05]: numbers, but like, look at like, you had the bright hit.
32:30 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Look at how many number one hits, right, a carry had across the dining room.
32:34 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_03]: So so so many.
32:35 --> 32:37 [SPEAKER_05]: That's a success.
32:37 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Like that's to the record label is like this band is huge.
32:41 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_05]: So like when you have a band like local age, that's out there with like this minor hit that people don't even know the name of.
32:50 --> 32:54 [SPEAKER_05]: They just remember because it has a weird word that they've never used in their life.
32:55 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_05]: in it.
32:56 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_05]: You know what I'm talking about, right, Mark?
32:57 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_05]: You mean Copacetic?
33:07 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Copesthetic.
33:09 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
33:09 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_05]: So to me.
33:10 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_04]: So this goes back a long time.
33:12 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_04]: I think when we recorded the episode about neon trees Nicole and I had said they were two hit wonders and there was some back I was hoping you would know more.
33:20 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that local age?
33:22 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Are they a one hit wonder?
33:23 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Because I think high five and MF to my 14 year old self felt like a hit and it is a check the charts that that thing came nowhere near the charts
33:33 --> 33:54 [SPEAKER_03]: like I mean even flaming lips you think if you look at their hits like Vaseline probably yeah I don't even think you know he's jealous yeah you sheena did the numbers that I know them for you know I mean like that right like they're a great band they're like a popular band but as far as like critical acclaim or the billboard 100 like they probably didn't
33:54 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_03]: do well.
33:55 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think what hurt a lot of these ninety four ninety six bands was that it wasn't just that the record label was losing faith in them.
34:02 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I think the record label was losing faith in the entire alternative music and grunge thing.
34:08 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why while they're pushing the butthole surfers, they're also pushing the bear naked ladies and fastball the matchbox
34:41 --> 34:46 [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting because there's also like tiny life cycles within this, right?
34:46 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_04]: So within all of this is the shorter life span of like scab hunk, yeah, for example, or even shorter than that, like neoswing, right?
34:57 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_05]: You have the 18 months where I was thinking about you just the other day with neoswing.
35:02 --> 35:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Because you obviously, you came on one-hit thunder to talk about scrolling that zippers,
35:07 --> 35:12 [SPEAKER_05]: And it dawned on me that we forgot something in that episode that is huge.
35:12 --> 35:14 [SPEAKER_05]: We well, we got to air, air, air at all now.
35:14 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_05]: We were talking about the origins of the swing revival.
35:18 --> 35:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And both you and I kept talking about the gap commercials.
35:22 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_05]: What we completely forgot about was in 1994 the mask comes out and is a huge amazing full swing soundtrack.
35:31 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
35:32 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_03]: That I think that's what story.
35:34 --> 35:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's now that you mentioned that that have cherry pop and daddy's on it or didn't have royal cranberry.
35:38 --> 35:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it had one of those baby had royal crown review.
35:41 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_05]: It had had and it had Brian Sutter on it.
35:44 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was wearing like an actual suit like it is a life when revival album I loved that soundtrack.
35:56 --> 35:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I like listen to it on CD every day.
35:58 --> 35:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a great album.
35:59 --> 36:05 [SPEAKER_05]: But I was like, I can't believe that throughout that entire episode, we didn't bring up that in 1994, this massive movie.
36:05 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_05]: had like a huge swing revival to it.
36:08 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_04]: You're totally right because that it had Brian Setser, it had royal crown, but it didn't have the songs that we associate with those bands as being the big hits.
36:18 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_04]: What it was was just the sort of planting of the seeds that then somebody pumped a little money in to get a big bad voodoo daddy record recorded or to assemble that cherry pop and daddy's comp album that was all they're swinging like
36:32 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_04]: That's there was like an echo two years later of the mask.
36:35 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Good.
36:35 --> 36:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Good call.
36:36 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I have not seen the mask since probably that year.
36:38 --> 36:39 [SPEAKER_04]: So I forgot about it.
36:39 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it would hold up.
36:40 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think it's so we did it for with our movie night every black Friday.
36:45 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_05]: We pick each one of the hosts pick say non-har movie and let's our fans vote on like a non-har movie for us to kick the year off with.
36:54 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And I thought, oh, the mask would be fun.
36:56 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And that actually won.
36:57 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_05]: That's why it came to me.
36:58 --> 37:01 [SPEAKER_05]: We did an episode this past week on it.
37:01 --> 37:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I would say that it probably of the first four or five Jim Carrey comedies ages the best, you know what I'm like, okay, like there there isn't any glaring like homophobic or something's phobic or awkwardness in them, but it's it's
37:18 --> 37:20 [SPEAKER_05]: It's the one that aged the best.
37:20 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_05]: It's also probably the least fun watch.
37:22 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Like I still will have a blast watching dumb and dumber or a spintora despite all of the like 2.
37:30 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Just in it, where like the mask is just like a fun, dark horse comics inspired, you know, like it's just, oh, this is, it's, it's a slightly better the shadow or the phantom like,
37:45 --> 37:50 [SPEAKER_04]: so like not to not to derail back on the rail, but this is the amazing example.
37:51 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Can you turn this episode in like seven different sidetracks?
37:57 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_04]: But but that's a great example, right?
37:59 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Because the record labels are responding.
38:01 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's say whatever was the cause of that sound well, the cause of that soundtrack being swing is the fact that these bands did exist and the vibe of that movie needed that kind of music.
38:12 --> 38:23 [SPEAKER_04]: positive reaction to that if that led to a knee jerk signing and two years later led to this sort of short-lived swing craze that's kind of emblematic of what we're talking about.
38:23 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_04]: But there's a reaction to Nirvana and a feeding frenzy to sign any weird band you can because you never know who's going to be the next Nirvana and if they're not the next Nirvana drop them from the label,
38:34 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, like, failed.
38:36 --> 38:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Was it failure dropped from their label?
38:38 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to think like, other, I can't, I'm fat brains went in and out of a major label within a couple years, I think.
38:43 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's a ton of those.
38:45 --> 38:49 [SPEAKER_05]: I also, you know, like, I think that that's something that's another element, right?
38:49 --> 38:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, there is probably,
38:51 --> 39:04 [SPEAKER_05]: a very reasonable line that can be drawn between oh brother were out there being this major selling soundtrack and the luminaires and mumford and sons having huge careers like five or six years later.
39:05 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
39:05 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that that's a stretch.
39:07 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like there's a direct like a causal correlation that people like oh I like this.
39:11 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I like Americana turns out like it's good music.
39:14 --> 39:16 [SPEAKER_05]: So I do think there's an element of that.
39:17 --> 39:21 [SPEAKER_05]: I know that I had heard, you know, I do the Christian cringe podcast.
39:21 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_05]: I love Christian music and I was at one point this interview with the head of tooth and nail records, which was like this giant Christian punk and metal record label.
39:32 --> 39:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And he had an interview with a guy who ran a different Christian punk record label.
39:38 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_05]: And their whole back and forth was he was talking about why this guy's record label no longer exists and tooth and nail is still around and one of the big reasons was the type of contract that they signed for their upstream contract and the guy from the failed record the look record label that went under was basically like when you're signing with like Atlantic records there their mindset is like we're going to sign 20 new artists.
40:07 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to hope like we owned all of the Beatles music or whatever, we're going to hope that this band is as big, that they can be close to our next Beatles.
40:18 --> 40:34 [SPEAKER_05]: And if all 20 of these bands fail, we will be fine because we just have to re-release another compilation of Beatles greatest hits that is going to be the number one best selling record of the year and that'll cover our backs and then we'll just drop all of these other bands.
40:34 --> 40:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And like that's kind of the mentality a lot of the time is like we're going to sign these bands.
40:38 --> 40:50 [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to give them a chance and if they well us amazing and if they don't, then we're just going to move on and we're going to do a remaster release of something that we know will sell and try again with another 20 bands and see what happens.
40:50 --> 40:55 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like if you're a, you know, a venture capitalist angel investor, you just have money.
40:55 --> 40:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
40:56 --> 41:01 [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, I'll send $10 million to this start-up that's super high risk, because maybe I'll make a billion.
41:01 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And if I don't, yeah, whatever, I still have a lot of money.
41:04 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But for the poor guys who are living in a van, like now they finally got this once in a million opportunity that's gone before they even have any chance to do anything with it.
41:15 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Like they're just pawns in that record labels, hopes for success.
41:20 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_03]: It's also the point like if you try to do 20 tasks, you're not going to do any of them well, right?
41:25 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to get them all done, but they're not going to be the best they could be.
41:28 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Whereas if you just focused on five really good promising artists, you could probably get them there with good mentorship and guidance and producers and putting some money behind marketing.
41:38 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you can't do that, it's...
41:41 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a real bummer, it's the musicians, it's not like giving them even a shot.
41:45 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_05]: The drummer of Semisonic has a book out, I think it's called, so you want to be a rock star.
41:50 --> 41:51 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's what it's called.
41:52 --> 42:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And he talks so much about how often that band was
42:00 --> 42:05 [SPEAKER_05]: just bumping heads with the record label where the record label didn't think that closing time was a hit.
42:05 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_05]: They like put out a different song first that he's like these record labels don't necessarily know what the audience wants.
42:14 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_05]: They're just guessing he's like, but we the band are the ones that are on the road playing it, seeing the songs that audiences are responding to.
42:22 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_05]: And like we have a better idea of what song we think an audience is going to want to hear.
42:28 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like Dan Wilson Lee's hair was very strong willed and said no, if you want this album, you're putting out closing time because closing time is your hit.
42:37 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, you know, find me 20 other guys getting handed a record contract that are willing to stand up and fight that hard against the people giving them the money.
42:47 --> 42:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Like,
42:47 --> 43:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And it takes experience and like grit and that's something a 18 year old living in a van might not have they might just be really eager to get their ticket right so it takes a you know some grind to be able to stand up against this big machine and you know I think it's important to do that nurture that but good mentorship matters in those cases and you can't mentor 20 bands to success.
43:11 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_05]: But what's interesting about that specific book is that two of the three members of some isonic, the bassist in Dan Wilson were in a different band first that was already signed and had kind of gone through the corporate machine unsuccessfully and their drummer was just this kid who was a fan of that band.
43:31 --> 43:57 [SPEAKER_05]: so like when they started this new band and he became the drummer like he talks about in the book that semi sonic played their first show and it was a sold-out show because it was all these people who loved this previous band but he's like I had never played drums in front of an audience before and my first show is playing drums in front of a sold-out crowd so a lot of his book is about like imposter syndrome panic attacks like he almost quit that band like eight different times
43:57 --> 44:01 [SPEAKER_05]: because of feeling like these guys have worked for 10 years for this.
44:01 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm just some idiot that they befriended that they were like, you should be our drummer that like doesn't deserve to be here already.
44:09 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Are you talking about trips Shakespeare?
44:10 --> 44:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Trip Shakespeare.
44:11 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Trip Shakespeare.
44:12 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
44:12 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:13 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I do not know that.
44:14 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_04]: I looked that up.
44:15 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_04]: And because I knew someone in the discord was going to yell at us for not knowing it.
44:20 --> 44:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I, this all reminds me of our, our first guest this season, Green win was making the point back when she, Bree, everybody, if you haven't listened to that up, so check it out.
44:31 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_04]: She basically dropped out a high school, my high school to go run web, marketing from Ryan Carey, and she talked about how the, the people on top in that era,
44:41 --> 44:46 [SPEAKER_04]: We're like the people that had broken haul in oats 20 years earlier, right?
44:46 --> 44:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And so not only in our conversation with her, it was very much about how they didn't understand the internet.
44:51 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_04]: But to the semi-sonic point, they don't understand what's happening at the live show either, like whoever was in charge of these labels in the mid-90s, maybe their ANR crew was going to show.
45:02 --> 45:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But the label execs cut their teeth, you know, with
45:07 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_04]: disco, you know, decade and a half earlier, right?
45:10 --> 45:19 [SPEAKER_04]: So things change quickly and luckily some artists are able to be hard-nosed enough to, you know, get that single on the radio or whatever.
45:19 --> 45:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Mark, I feel bad.
45:20 --> 45:32 [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like we're definitely going to have to change whatever the name of the side track is because we didn't actually hit the main topic, but it's just a conversation about how crazy the 90s alternative music landscape was.
45:32 --> 45:34 [SPEAKER_05]: What is the main topic?
45:34 --> 45:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that is the main topic.
45:35 --> 45:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I think the main topic was just, hey, wasn't the music in 1995 and 1996 really weird.
45:41 --> 45:42 [SPEAKER_05]: What's what I had pitched?
45:42 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_05]: But I knew that we were not just going to bounce all over 90s rock history at a certain point.
45:47 --> 45:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I thought the main topic was Matt Kelly's awesome, and we can't wait to talk to her.
45:52 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Aw, that's the cold thing that we might have back onto a podcast.
45:57 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm in over my head with you guys, like I am in it.
46:00 --> 46:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if you want to talk about the death, it's a stress model, we can do that.
46:03 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's hold different conversation.
46:06 --> 46:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Diagnosed this here's my weird shameful confession is that I secretly now not secretly now publicly wish that I was like five years older or five years younger because I wish that I had had the opportunity to be predated upon by a record label in the mid-90s.
46:27 --> 46:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Like by the time I because you know like I'm a pretty good musician I was pretty bad
46:36 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a pretty good musician and now you can't, it's too hard to get noticed, you know, whereas I can fantasize that where I one of those 20 that were signed, I could have been successful.
46:47 --> 46:54 [SPEAKER_04]: But then fast forward to when I did come of age, and the record company model had completely collapsed because of Napster.
46:54 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Napster and file sharing in the internet in general.
46:56 --> 46:57 [SPEAKER_04]: They were not spending on anything.
46:58 --> 47:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody was getting signed for any of that kind of regular stuff.
47:01 --> 47:08 [SPEAKER_04]: But then five years later, there was garage band and computers that you could get a cheap mic to record.
47:08 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_04]: You weren't going to have to use the stupid four tracks that my band and high school is using.
47:12 --> 47:14 [SPEAKER_04]: There was YouTube, my space.
47:14 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, my space existed while I was in college and stuff.
47:17 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_04]: But it feels like I, the zenials fall into this,
47:21 --> 47:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Matt, are you just too young to be an exennial?
47:25 --> 47:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I think I am either just too young or I'm right at the tail end because I'm 85.
47:29 --> 47:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's like 85.
47:31 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, it's like right there.
47:32 --> 47:36 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like 78 to 83 or whatever, maybe.
47:36 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like
47:38 --> 47:53 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of benefits to our generational cohort as we have discussed in previous podcasts, superpowers that we get for being in that cohort, but sort of we fell into this weird crack, where the record labels hadn't yet figured out they could sell MP3s on iTunes.
47:53 --> 47:59 [SPEAKER_04]: And no longer were operating in the old, let's sell a bunch of $20 albums at Sam Goodie model.
47:59 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I still remember teaching a high school class.
48:02 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_04]: when I was probably 22 years old.
48:04 --> 48:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So like probably way too young and dumb to be put in charge of 15 to 16 year olds.
48:10 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And this kid had songs on iTunes that he recorded junk, whatever he did on garage band or whatever.
48:18 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_04]: And he got it through CD Baby or whatever it was at the time.
48:21 --> 48:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Got it distributed.
48:22 --> 48:26 [SPEAKER_04]: And I remember being just like, damn, I wish I had that access.
48:26 --> 48:42 [SPEAKER_04]: now that kid is now not a famous musician like it wasn't like great but what what's the psychosis of the grass is always greener for me yeah no like I feel like I wish I was a part of this feeding francy or I wish I was
48:42 --> 48:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Because by the time I figured it out, I was already like late 20s, early 30s, what YouTube was a thing like I missed my chance to be like the next big thing.
48:52 --> 48:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Like sorry, that was a long rant.
48:53 --> 48:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to edit all this away and your response is not going to make any sense to the list.
48:57 --> 49:01 [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know, no, I think that like what I'm hearing.
49:01 --> 49:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's such a very therapeutic thing to say.
49:03 --> 49:05 [SPEAKER_03]: So I apologize, so cringy.
49:06 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_03]: What I'm hearing is that you feel like you missed out.
49:09 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you feel like you didn't get the opportunities that you were deserve enough based on your talent, which is like your talent, did for sure.
49:16 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_03]: But I also think like there's some hindsight bias in there too, like when you look back, now you know what it would have taken because you saw how it played out.
49:25 --> 49:30 [SPEAKER_03]: But at that moment, you didn't have the skill set to find success.
49:31 --> 49:35 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're looking back and, okay, that's what it took for those bands to be successful.
49:35 --> 49:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I could have done that, but at that moment, you didn't have that information, right?
49:40 --> 49:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:40 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that you're just a cognitive distortion mark.
49:45 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
49:45 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not too late.
49:47 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not old and crushed.
49:48 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_05]: I was just about to say that.
49:49 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_05]: I do think.
49:51 --> 50:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And this goes with podcasting as well as writing and filmmaking and like a million other things is that I do think that society definitely makes all of us think that there is a finite timeline where if you haven't made it happen by 30 or 40 or 50, like that's just not in the cards for you and you're never, you might as well just give it up and work the nine to five
50:20 --> 50:22 [SPEAKER_05]: don't subscribe to that.
50:22 --> 50:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't don't.
50:23 --> 50:28 [SPEAKER_05]: I, you know, I also think that people need to adjust what they define a success.
50:28 --> 50:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, right, maybe I look to my uncle, right, my uncle during that swing frenzy of the 90s was in a swing band that got signed and then in the process of them being signed and going to the record label.
50:44 --> 51:13 [SPEAKER_05]: The label is like, hey, actually, the swing things dead and you guys were not putting out the album at all and like those those recordings that he did has never seen the light of day, but his full time job is still being in a band that is like one of Philly's top like wedding and party bands and that is his full income and he gets to spend all of his time with his wife and kids and like make music his full time job and I'm like, that's amazing.
51:12 --> 51:14 [SPEAKER_05]: It's all that you can ever ask for.
51:15 --> 51:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, very important.
51:16 --> 51:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Very important.
51:17 --> 51:17 [SPEAKER_03]: They call it.
51:18 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_03]: They call that a GB ban.
51:19 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_03]: No, but do they?
51:21 --> 51:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that only in Boston?
51:24 --> 51:25 [SPEAKER_04]: What kind of band?
51:25 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_04]: If you asked your uncle, what kind of music do you play?
51:27 --> 51:28 [SPEAKER_04]: What would he say?
51:29 --> 51:33 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he just considers himself like a bar band that gets paid very well to play weddings.
51:33 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I bet they don't.
51:35 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I think G.B.
51:35 --> 51:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Band is like a new week.
51:36 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a boss.
51:37 --> 51:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Listeners, right in, we need connect acutions.
51:40 --> 51:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that what they're called?
51:41 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_04]: People from Connecticut, is that still, do they still call it G.B.
51:45 --> 51:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Do they call it G.B.
51:46 --> 51:47 [SPEAKER_04]: in New York?
51:47 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Do they call it G.B.
51:48 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_04]: in Maine?
51:48 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Probably.
51:49 --> 51:50 [SPEAKER_04]: But what about in Montreal?
51:50 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Like how far does this term go?
51:52 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_04]: General business is the term used in Boston.
51:55 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_04]: This comes up.
51:56 --> 51:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe every other episode of our con.
51:58 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, because I love.
51:59 --> 52:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I never knew that term before we started podcasting together.
52:02 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Now I try to use it everywhere.
52:04 --> 52:06 [SPEAKER_05]: That's what they are so glad that I was able to give an excuse.
52:06 --> 52:08 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, he's telling me, he's telling it.
52:09 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_04]: The drink game would be every time Nicole or I mentioned G.B.
52:12 --> 52:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Take a shit.
52:13 --> 52:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, every time Nicole is proud of herself for knowing what it means.
52:16 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody has to take shit.
52:17 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I even like, of the other day, my friends really come.
52:20 --> 52:21 [SPEAKER_03]: We're like, we're in this cover band.
52:21 --> 52:23 [SPEAKER_03]: We just play bars and stuff.
52:23 --> 52:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
52:26 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_04]: and they knew that you were cool.
52:27 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_03]: No, they had no clue that I was talking about.
52:29 --> 52:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, they didn't tell us.
52:30 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Flat, then, is it did just now?
52:32 --> 52:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you go away?
52:33 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_05]: You have perfect pitch recognition?
52:35 --> 52:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I did.
52:35 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and they were like, prove it.
52:37 --> 52:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, OK, we're going to play any note.
52:39 --> 52:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'll tell you what it is.
52:40 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll just tell you what note is.
52:42 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, a savunned.
52:45 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_04]: You were saying something like meaningful.
52:47 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_04]: You brought up here?
52:47 --> 52:48 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I was right.
52:49 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Or I know.
52:50 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Matt was.
52:50 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_04]: How cool.
52:51 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, great.
52:52 --> 52:53 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, perfect.
52:53 --> 52:56 [SPEAKER_04]: The thing is, like, by all accounts,
52:56 --> 52:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I have won the lottery as a musician.
52:58 --> 53:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I am a professional musician.
53:00 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_04]: I am a literal college professor.
53:02 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_04]: How much more elitist and lucky could I be, right?
53:05 --> 53:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I didn't have what I maybe wanted when I was 20 years old or whatever, but that's the thing.
53:11 --> 53:14 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, that thing shouldn't even be plan A.
53:14 --> 53:17 [SPEAKER_04]: That thing is like plan, alpha or whatever, right?
53:18 --> 53:20 [SPEAKER_04]: That isn't even a realistic plan.
53:20 --> 53:21 [SPEAKER_04]: That's just a maybe I'll just get lucky, right?
53:21 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, obviously, I didn't do the thing where I
53:23 --> 53:27 [SPEAKER_04]: joins it to ban when I was 20 and toured the world and just that was my whole life.
53:27 --> 53:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I went to school and all this other stuff, but
53:30 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_04]: No way, I don't add all of you myself.
53:31 --> 53:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for the therapy to both of you.
53:33 --> 53:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't add all of you my life as a failure.
53:35 --> 53:38 [SPEAKER_04]: It's more just like this window of what?
53:38 --> 53:40 [SPEAKER_04]: The record industry collapsing, right?
53:41 --> 53:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's, you know, for me, it was graduating from grad school, but people year age graduated from college right as the economy tanked.
53:49 --> 53:51 [SPEAKER_04]: That was a little bit like, congratulations.
53:51 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_04]: You're a trained musician now.
53:52 --> 53:54 [SPEAKER_04]: The record industry doesn't exist anymore.
53:54 --> 53:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's kind of what you felt like that a little bit to me.
53:58 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_05]: which I can line about even though I've won to me you're living my dream mark like my goal is not to be the world's biggest podcasts or on the planet even though I certainly try but it's like if I don't have to check my bank account every time that I go to get groceries to make sure that there's enough money in there and that's
54:17 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_05]: coming from podcasting, whether it's teaching a course on podcasting or from ad money, like that is just as great as long as what I do, I'm satisfied by and it's tied to this field that I love so very, very much, like that is the win.
54:36 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, like I, that, I don't know.
54:39 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_05]: We're taking a weird route.
54:40 --> 54:42 [SPEAKER_05]: This is the weirdest side I listen to every side tracking.
54:42 --> 54:44 [SPEAKER_05]: This is the weirdest side check.
54:44 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, I just need to nod to positive psychology for a quick second if you're like indulged me on that, but there's this Tenant and positive psychology that says that if we always put success on the other side of a goal post will never actually find happiness Success will never bring us happiness because we'll just keep changing the goal.
55:05 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So if you fall into this trap like I'll be happy when yeah, like I'll be happy when
55:10 --> 55:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a successful musician when I drop my first album or when I get married by a house have kids like when I get the job I've always wanted, right?
55:20 --> 55:30 [SPEAKER_03]: When you do that, you never actually allow yourself happiness because as soon as you hit that mark, you just change where the goal is and move it down the field further, right?
55:30 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Positive psychology teaches us to be happy now and successful come because your happiness will invite opportunities for success in your life and it won't be one doesn't lead to the other ones because of the other.
55:46 --> 55:50 [SPEAKER_03]: We're doing that a lot here, like, oh, when I was a kid, I thought I'd be happy when.
55:50 --> 55:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
55:51 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I, yeah.
55:52 --> 55:58 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a label signed me, but now we're learning as adults that we don't get to just plateau.
55:58 --> 56:03 [SPEAKER_03]: We have to and get to keep changing and growing over time, and that's awesome.
56:03 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So to look back and say, like, this is the path not taken.
56:07 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't serve us at all, right?
56:10 --> 56:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you are where you are right now, and it's a pretty good spot for all of us.
56:14 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Like we have a nice little life case and point mad I can assume you do not have a degree in podcasting now it's that you this is a way you can leverage the skills you have right to be you know fulfilled and make rent or whatever and that's like what I'm a lot of times my students you know I teach in a field where the degree means nothing you know
56:38 --> 56:39 [SPEAKER_04]: like literally.
56:39 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I was trying to get some go through some process not to get to department chair on y'all, but I was creating a new certificate program in music technology.
56:47 --> 56:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Someone in the grants office was like, whoa, okay, we can try to get grants.
56:50 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you tell me which jobs your students will be entitled to when they finish this program?
56:55 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, entitled, I have a doctorate and I'm not entitled to nothing.
56:58 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
56:58 --> 56:59 [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
56:59 --> 57:01 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's all about the skills you get.
57:01 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I tell my students and I wish somebody had said it this way when I was a student, it would have resonated with me.
57:06 --> 57:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Just like, you've won if you were using the skills you learn here.
57:09 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Like if you're in that this industry, even if you're not, you're trying to be a professional guitar player, maybe you're not doing that, maybe you're teaching, maybe you're working at an instrument shop doing repairs, maybe you're like an event coordinator or whatever.
57:20 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_04]: If you're in this industry and using the skills and you get a nine to five or some kind of a paycheck for it,
57:26 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_04]: That's the holy grail, but like that's an attainable holy grail as opposed to I'm going to go be a you know the first chair violin of the Boston Symphony or whatever or a rockstar right I always joke around that like I have a liberal arts degree which I feel like is the punchline to worthless.
57:44 --> 58:00 [SPEAKER_05]: degrees in college in general, but like I look at it as I got a degree where I could take whatever classes I felt necessary and I used them to take every music history class, to take every film history class, to take business classes, to take marketing classes.
58:00 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_05]: like, like, like, I, and I'm like, I have utilized skills that I learned in every single class that I took over.
58:08 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Honestly, the only skills I haven't used in my life from college are like the pre-rex of math and, you know, it's like the genetics.
58:16 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to advocate, I'm,
58:18 --> 58:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Appalled liberal arts degrees are not useless, they're still valid for the reasons you're just crying because you get to take classes for the first time in your life, learn about things that you're genuinely interested in, genuinely passionate about.
58:31 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I work with students, I always say like, you don't know what you want to be when you grow up.
58:35 --> 58:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Good.
58:36 --> 58:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
58:36 --> 58:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Just take classes that you're interested in because then you'll have skills that serve those interests and then you can get a job with those skills in something you're interested in and that seems like exactly what you did.
58:48 --> 58:53 [SPEAKER_05]: So I almost had a minor in American studies because I took so many pop culture based classes over.
58:54 --> 58:55 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, we just give them this.
58:55 --> 59:01 [SPEAKER_05]: They literally said if you stayed one more semester and just took one more American studies,
59:01 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, you had a great academic advisor.
59:04 --> 59:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Love that.
59:04 --> 59:07 [SPEAKER_05]: And I was like, yeah, I'm not coming back to take one class.
59:07 --> 59:09 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to go and graduate.
59:09 --> 59:10 [UNKNOWN]: No, that's.
59:11 --> 59:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Because we all know that a minor confers upon you so many rights.
59:15 --> 59:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
59:15 --> 59:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It would be like at least to maybe like 10 grand, maybe.
59:19 --> 59:20 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot of sense.
59:20 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there were a large degree at a state university, regional public university.
59:26 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_04]: does have a value proposition difference to the liberal arts degree that cost just 60 grand a year or something like that.
59:32 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_03]: It's because it's the school that gets you the job or gets you the network.
59:36 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_04]: No, but I'm saying even just like you could spend four years learning and if you're two hundred thousand dollars in debt that learning is maybe not enough.
59:45 --> 59:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas if you if you you're saying you're right you'll get a better job maybe if you go to Harvard or
59:53 --> 59:58 [SPEAKER_04]: per word you're reading in those exploratory classes, a higher fee, right?
59:58 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
59:59 --> 01:00:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I taught at community college versus a private university, there would be days that I'd go to that community college and teach psych 101 and then get on the train and go to the private university and teach psych 101, same exact lectures, same exact test, same exact textbook, same exact teacher, the only thing that was different,
01:00:20 --> 01:00:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that one school I had to like bring my own markers with me and the other school there's markers everywhere you looked And the classrooms are a little bit nicer.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So all right.
01:00:28 --> 01:00:47 [SPEAKER_05]: I got Yeah, I think we've we're ranting in the logical end of the topic I think we got like Nicole ranting about higher ed and how like liberal arts matters like don't kill liberal arts I think I'm gonna walk away and just hope that this is someone's favorite episode and not everyone's least favorite
01:00:47 --> 01:00:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, we have been threatening it so long Nicole, we're gonna have a full on episode that's a rant on higher end one day, right?
01:00:56 --> 01:01:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Because there's so much to talk about that we just will drop a bomb like I'll just in the middle of an episode be like music theories, white supremacist.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, moving on and we don't talk about it like
01:01:07 --> 01:01:26 [SPEAKER_03]: uh... hired as a rocket teaching maus love any more is now sold right just leave it there and leave and one of these days we're gonna have to actually unpack it once we feel job security yeah i mean and it's all uh... that's why i'm like that this is just propaganda for liberal arts degrees at this point i'm just security
01:01:26 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_03]: But I do think you know what you talk about like passion in your jobs.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's so nice to hear someone else and a different field say like I just want to do something that I wake up every day and I'm inspired to do it and I find passion and it doesn't feel like work and I just want to do this and make enough money to like buy groceries and I feel the same way about teaching like I'm just so happy I get to go to work at a job I love every day
01:01:51 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_03]: With students, I genuinely care about teaching content that I'm really passionate about.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't have to worry about, like, if I'm gonna be able to buy groceries or not.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a real blessing that not a lot of people get.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think Mark and I stop ourselves from ranting about higher ed, because I think we share that feeling in that passion that we don't wanna run by the hand that feeds us, but also like, we love it and it's flawed.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's cool.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I spent New Year's Eve for at least three hours of my New Year's Eve on my computer building a to-do list and goals board for every podcast that I do.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:36 [SPEAKER_05]: You don't do that on New Year's Eve unless you are so passionate about what you're doing that that's what you'd rather be doing.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And anything else on your New Year's Eve.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Like I was like, oh, these are the goals for this podcast.
01:02:42 --> 01:02:43 [SPEAKER_05]: These are the goals for this podcast.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And then like sending emails to my co-hosts at like 10 at night when they're like, what are you doing?
01:02:49 --> 01:02:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Why are you emailing me a breakdown of goals for one hit thunder this year?
01:02:54 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure your partner was thrilled to spend her New Year's Eve doing that, though.
01:02:58 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll say that.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_05]: We were gonna host a party then every guest that was supposed to come had the flu,
01:03:05 --> 01:03:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's just watch movies.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And we just we were in our pajamas.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:13 [SPEAKER_05]: It will not work and we watched every 2025 release.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:16 [SPEAKER_05]: We hadn't gotten a chance to watch and then watch the stranger things finale.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:18 [SPEAKER_05]: And then went to bed before the blow dropped.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_05]: It was lovely.
01:03:20 --> 01:03:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And love that.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I share that and I had like yesterday it was like a weekend night and we went out to dinner and it was really nice and then we came home and I just like sat and like dove into my life spend development syllabus and wrote this whole unit unlike end of life care and after life and cultural views on like spirituality and death and my husband was like what are you doing I was like I'm just writing my syllabus I'm pumped about now
01:03:48 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're doing that on Saturday night, Friday night, you're doing pretty good.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I think.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're living your life.
01:03:54 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_04]: If anybody can't tell from the theme of this episode being the mid 90s, we are old.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:02 [SPEAKER_04]: We are quite old.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_05]: I got very excited to buy a new toaster with my Christmas money.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Have you heard about air fryers?
01:04:08 --> 01:04:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I've got an air fry or two, but I was done with having only two toaster slots.
01:04:14 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_05]: I need it for So that you make all the toaster.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I could make cinnamon bread for my girlfriend and me simultaneously instead of one at a time Where one of us was eating toast while the other one was still waiting for toast Thank you so much
01:04:30 --> 01:04:33 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, Matt, this has been really fun.
01:04:33 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_04]: And we are going to talk about breakfast.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Come hang out with us every day, you're the best.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:44 [SPEAKER_04]: The network where part of the law hounds have lit entire episodes about breakfast.
01:04:44 --> 01:04:47 [SPEAKER_04]: So there are hot takes in the community.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Law hounds people right in.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:49 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think?
01:04:49 --> 01:04:52 [SPEAKER_04]: How does he need to go to an eight slot?
01:04:52 --> 01:04:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Toaster.
01:04:54 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_04]: OK, Matt, we've already talked a bit about the podcasts.
01:04:58 --> 01:04:59 [SPEAKER_04]: people can find you on.
01:04:59 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to tell us what's going, so this is first week of January, what's going on on a few of your shows of people?
01:05:05 --> 01:05:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Because this community, we've got our listeners of course, or music and psych fans, but there's the lorehounds have book readers, movie watches, TV shows.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:20 [SPEAKER_04]: So give us a sampling of the kinds of episodes on your shows that if people want to check what you're doing out, what they should listen to.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to do the way I always do, which is just walk my way through the calendar.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:27 [SPEAKER_05]: So Monday, every Monday night is Christmas 365.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:30 [SPEAKER_05]: I think I've done a pretty good long pitch on that at the start of that.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:31 [SPEAKER_05]: So you're either sold on that or not.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:36 [SPEAKER_05]: On Tuesdays is YAA, which is a bi-weekly podcast.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:37 [SPEAKER_05]: It's about young adult novels.
01:05:38 --> 01:05:43 [SPEAKER_05]: It's hosted by my friend Eric Shabram, who is a YA author who wrote the book.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:44 [SPEAKER_05]: all that's left in the world.
01:05:44 --> 01:05:47 [SPEAKER_05]: He's a U.S. A weekly best seller.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_05]: And his co-host is a list of loob from the Netflix reality show the circle.
01:05:53 --> 01:06:08 [SPEAKER_05]: The two of them sit down with different up and coming young adult authors and talk about their new books and what like drew them to this specific genre affection Wednesdays is one hit thunder, which is the biggest show that I do toast to by myself and crucifios to the band punchline.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:10 [SPEAKER_05]: We talk about one hit wonders.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:12 [SPEAKER_05]: We deep
01:06:12 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_05]: both of you have been on it.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:18 [SPEAKER_05]: So if you like never mind the music, that is a beautiful starting point.
01:06:18 --> 01:06:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Thursdays is hard.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Movie night every week, me and my two friends break down the strangest, most delightful horror films of the 80s, 90s.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And beyond, Friday's is Weird Algorithm, which is a weekly Weird Alpine cast hosted by myself and Matt Milligan of the Band Weedus.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:53 [SPEAKER_05]: uh... where we are just going to all the entire catalog song by song trying to figure out what is the best we are to all song that show is probably going to end in two thousand twenty six because we're bobo's done his catalog uh... saturday i get a break from podcasting that's just patreon on that two by the way yes mark is been on that a couple times
01:06:53 --> 01:07:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Saturdays I get a break and it's just podcast picture on content for some of my shows on Saturdays and then Sunday is the Christian cringe podcast.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:13 [SPEAKER_05]: The newest of all the shows where myself and Katie Hampton go through 80s and 90s Christian media.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Whether it's veggie tales episodes Christian punk albums horror films made from Christian companies and just
01:07:22 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_05]: cringe through it trying to see hey some of this good is some of this or is it all bad and there's some really good stuff in there five our friends he comes to mind is a truly great quote unquote Christian artists that still has aged amazingly all these years later
01:07:38 --> 01:07:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, some point if you're like, hey, I like Scott music, but I don't want to listen to a Christian Scott band.
01:07:42 --> 01:07:51 [SPEAKER_05]: They're very first song on their very first album was about how fucked up manifest destiny was in a very like FU to the church kind of way.
01:07:51 --> 01:07:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Like they have been a political punk band that just happens to also be Christians from day one.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:00 [SPEAKER_05]: It's pretty they actually just released a shirt.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:02 [SPEAKER_05]: They're band formed in 1997.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:08 [SPEAKER_05]: They released a shirt that says fighting
01:08:08 --> 01:08:15 [SPEAKER_05]: they uh yeah they're very they're they're like the rage against the machines of Christian scobbets.
01:08:16 --> 01:08:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow you know what when we start this episode that's not a phrase I expected to hear really ever.
01:08:22 --> 01:08:29 [SPEAKER_05]: But uh yeah that's that's basically everything so if you haven't been annoyed at me over the list hour just
01:08:29 --> 01:08:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Road running us off the road over and over again topic-wise.
01:08:33 --> 01:08:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Check out any of those shows and I run the GeekScape network So subscribe to our YouTube channel GeekScape TV where I do video essays and live streams and stuff Awesome, man.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, thank you.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Nice.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Awesome, too Nevermind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and me Mark Popney.
01:08:55 --> 01:08:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I also produce
01:08:57 --> 01:09:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Please leave us a rating and a review, and don't forget to follow.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:08 [SPEAKER_04]: We're never music pot on social media, and you can also send us an email at nevermusicpot at gmail.com.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind the music is part of the lorehounds network, join the conversation by going to the lorehounds.com and hop on our Discord server.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.