When can a bit of nursery rhyme cost you six figures of royalties? In this episode, the hosts deep dive on Men at Work’s 1981 international hit “Down Under” and the crazy story of its authorship and accusations of plagiarism. Mark goes on walkabout through the basics of copyright law, and Nichole gets to feast on a few famous cases of plagiarism, spread on a vegemite sandwich! Tune in for an epic continent-spanning episode.
Other music heard in this episode: “Spicks and Specks Theme”, Bee Gees - “Spicks and Specks”, Men at Work - “Who Can It Be Now?”, Men at Work - “Overkill”, Larry Groce - “Kookaburra”, Colin Hay - “Waiting For My Real Life to Begin”, The Beach Boys - “Surfin’ U.S.A.”, Chuck Berry - “Sweet Little Sixteen”, Led Zeppelin - “Stairway to Heaven,” Spirit - “Taurus”, Robin Thicke feat. T.I. and Pharrell - “Blurred Lines”, Marvin Gaye - “Got to Give it Up”
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00:00 --> 00:01 [SPEAKER_07]: live podcasting.
00:01 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, it's in public domain.
00:04 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So I missed this, but then in the 2010s the copyright that was claimed on it was determined to be invalid because actually it had it had been created earlier than it was originally.
00:14 --> 00:15 [SPEAKER_06]: Actually it was stupid.
00:16 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Cheers.
00:28 --> 00:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, I'm Mark and I'm Nicole.
00:30 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is never mind the music.
00:32 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_07]: What are we talking about today, Mark?
00:34 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Nicole, let's talk about game shows.
00:37 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
00:38 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_01]: What are your favorite game shows of all time?
00:41 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_07]: All time.
00:42 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of the time that you watched game shows, I don't think it's fair for you to like, talk about ones that happened in 2040.
00:48 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
00:49 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Or even ones happened in 1940, before.
00:50 --> 00:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in all time exist, future.
00:53 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I guess.
00:55 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_07]: I actually really like game shows.
01:01 --> 01:01 [SPEAKER_07]: favorite.
01:01 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_07]: You put me on the spot.
01:02 --> 01:05 [SPEAKER_07]: I like Jeopardy because it makes me feel smart when it, I feel smart.
01:06 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_07]: I really like the Noemi show because that's kind of fun and retro.
01:09 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_07]: That.
01:10 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi, Noemi,
01:18 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I saw it.
01:19 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew of it.
01:20 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it would be on and then didn't watch it.
01:22 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_07]: And then I like how the guy like beat the system, there's like a whole documentary about how he beat the system and figured out like the algorithm.
01:28 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The trick.
01:28 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The trick.
01:29 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:29 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_07]: So I don't know prices right.
01:31 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_07]: It was iconic and grown up sick days.
01:33 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Home from school.
01:34 --> 01:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I can share what I've got about that one.
01:35 --> 01:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Eat and be for only, you know.
01:37 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Never had to be frowny.
01:38 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you're not missing much.
01:40 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So you didn't, I think, say any Nickelodeon ones.
01:45 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
01:45 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the trick is most of my game show watching was as a kid.
01:49 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, double dare, wild and crazy kids, legend of the hidden temple.
01:53 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: What would you do?
01:53 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, legends of the hidden temple.
01:55 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are the ones.
01:55 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Got's an agrucrag.
01:58 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now I know that.
01:59 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_07]: It was like American Gladiators, but for kids.
02:01 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that one.
02:03 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my gosh, do you have it, guts?
02:05 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_07]: You don't remember?
02:06 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you shouldn't check that out.
02:07 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It was Nickelodeon or something.
02:09 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
02:10 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: The grown-up ones, I think, though, I do, I didn't think my lifelong dream would be to be on presses, right?
02:16 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Family feud might be the best game.
02:19 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like in terms of what would be fun to play and also fun to watch, I would love to be on family feud.
02:25 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_07]: I like family feud too because it's sociology, because they ask like, we asked 100 married men or we asked 100 married women and those different groups are going to give different answers.
02:35 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that's important to notice.
02:37 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And also in the newer Steve Harvey ones, he's like weirdly sexual, which is an interesting undercurrent.
02:43 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's like weirdly touchy.
02:45 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We used to watch the show while we were like cooking dinner back when we were, you know, either an unmarried couple or a newly wedged or whatever before we had kids and it would be on and we had such nostalgia for watching it that we started watching some game shows and stuff with our kids relatively recently and we were like, let's watch family food and we were like, we cannot watch family food too much.
03:06 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Too much of the, what do you call it?
03:08 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The categories now are sort of, like anyone, or just Steve Harvey, or like there's, even if, or if you like old ones, either guys, either ready, sexual, everybody's kissing each other.
03:19 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_06]: It's weird.
03:21 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_06]: Like, it's like really touchy.
03:22 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not notice this watching it in my, as a young kid or in my 20s watching it.
03:28 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_07]: All I watch is like for Steve Harvey to be weird.
03:31 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's great.
03:32 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also great.
03:33 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_07]: It's good television.
03:34 --> 03:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
03:35 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_07]: Why are you talking about this?
03:37 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, hang on.
03:38 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
03:38 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Stay on topic.
03:39 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
03:39 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm trying.
03:40 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: What are your opinions about Australia?
03:42 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: The continent or the country, depending on how you want to.
03:46 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_07]: I think Australia is a vast country slash continent.
03:51 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Pop seven continent, I'd say.
03:52 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Is it definitely my top seven?
03:55 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_07]: everyone I've met from Australia except one guy has been really nice, so do you want to air and he's already laundry about that guy or should we just move on if he's just kind of a, maybe I was
04:05 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So my fucking lots for Australia.
04:07 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of jokes about it circulating every time we go out to dinner and a matter of what's in joke about Australia.
04:16 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Like we'll just call it fast forward.
04:19 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_01]: If my wife listens sometimes fast forward 30 seconds because she's heard of this joke 9 times out of 4 times when it repeated.
04:25 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_01]: He'll say when someone says, because he's lived in America for like 50 years or something like that.
04:32 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And someone would be like, oh, where's your accent from?
04:34 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says I'm from the deep south every single time.
04:37 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he waits while they're confused and he goes, oh, Australia, and they go, hey, oh.
04:41 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And we all go, oh, no, not again.
04:44 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I have fun opinions about Australia.
04:47 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I always was into the animals as a kid.
04:49 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm trying to, I've never been.
04:51 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I always wanted to go and ride a kangaroo or
04:53 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think my favorite animals right a kangaroo right.
05:00 --> 05:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I think monotremes are my favorite type of animal No, I'm on a tree.
05:04 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_01]: No, never heard of them the most famous one is a platypus.
05:07 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay Those are your favorite animals platypus and he kidding is are like my favorite.
05:12 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
05:12 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_01]: There's so weird They're weird.
05:14 --> 05:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like eggs, but they're mammals.
05:15 --> 05:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They're weird.
05:16 --> 05:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Why are they mammals?
05:17 --> 05:17 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not
05:17 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, and you know, I'm from San Diego and they say, like, those are the two most similar climates on earth.
05:23 --> 05:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That in certain parts of the Mediterranean.
05:24 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_07]: It's a shorter flight from Boston, like from San Diego to Australia than from Boston.
05:29 --> 05:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really a week, 30 million hours.
05:31 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's as far as you can go before you start coming back.
05:34 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, positive vibes about Australia overall, right?
05:37 --> 05:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so just staying on topic.
05:39 --> 05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on the year 2007?
05:40 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what were you up to in 2007?
05:43 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_07]: 2007.
05:46 --> 05:53 [SPEAKER_07]: I was two thousand good year I was right before the economic collapse right before the economic collapse.
05:53 --> 05:55 [SPEAKER_07]: I think I was in grad school.
05:55 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_07]: I was working in a job I loved.
05:57 --> 06:01 [SPEAKER_07]: I was had a great boyfriend I was living with in a great apartment.
06:01 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_07]: It was the, you know, late 20s, I think, where you have money, but not mid 20s, where you have money because you have like a job now, but you don't have obligations because you don't really have a family yet.
06:11 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Nami, I.
06:12 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good sweet spot.
06:12 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I was still in grad school.
06:14 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I was in grad school and my job was.
06:16 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_01]: A small stipend from being a TA that covered tuition and paid for two thirds of my rent.
06:21 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_07]: I did it all at once and first, Jen.
06:23 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_07]: I probably had two bucks.
06:24 --> 06:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Same, yeah.
06:25 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_07]: But like I just was hustling through it.
06:27 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_07]: So I worked and went to school and worked again.
06:30 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:31 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_07]: But it was good.
06:32 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_07]: We had a cute little dog.
06:33 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't love it.
06:35 --> 06:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Something very important to the this podcast happened in 2007.
06:39 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_07]: It's a call and hey in concert for the first time.
06:41 --> 06:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, why would you bring up Colin?
06:43 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we're still talking about the year two.
06:45 --> 06:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Colin, hey, from from a minute work.
06:48 --> 06:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's cool.
06:49 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, actually, let's come back to it.
06:50 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to hear about that.
06:51 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_07]: It's foreshadowing.
06:51 --> 06:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We will eventually get to music eventually, but I mean, this is important that we cover some of this early.
06:56 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_07]: We've seen the episode title.
06:57 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
06:57 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They have seen the episode title.
06:59 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how we put, we talked about this on a male bag episode.
07:01 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I put the
07:02 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_01]: list of songs that we play in the episode and I'm wondering on our list sidetracks, you know, where we like, here's our top 10 holiday songs or whatever.
07:12 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there people that just look at the list before they listen?
07:15 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_07]: I bet.
07:16 --> 07:16 [SPEAKER_07]: I bet there.
07:16 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And does that change the individual?
07:18 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: If they listen to it, does it spoil?
07:20 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we're like, and the award for most passive aggressive holiday song and people like, what is it?
07:27 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
07:28 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And someone's just interrupts.
07:31 --> 07:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It's
07:31 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Do you think that like people are that dialed in?
07:34 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think on the edge of their seat, like I'm trying to will into existence someone people loving it so much that they print an entire rakey.
07:43 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And they track all of our rankings and everything.
07:45 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, I would to denote their friends.
07:46 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, oh my gosh, did you hear what I'm working in a little sense?
07:49 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So 2007, very important.
07:51 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you already mentioned Colin, hey, that's why we're talking about it because you saw him in concert in 2007.
07:54 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_07]: The first time.
07:55 --> 08:00 [SPEAKER_01]: The top selling albums of 2007.
08:00 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_01]: high school musical too.
08:04 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Back to black in the White House, of course.
08:08 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And no well by Josh Grobin.
08:10 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm sure I haven't heard about Josh Grobin in a long time.
08:13 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_01]: He's probably doing great.
08:14 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure.
08:15 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like I should probably bring this all back together, right?
08:18 --> 08:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Make some sense of it.
08:19 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you curious?
08:20 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, you're curious.
08:22 --> 08:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you like to know the top rated game shows in Australia in 2007?
08:29 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I was wondering, I mean, you clearly know enough about those three things that maybe you could take take a guest or a room in the venn diagram of my brain for the top rated Australian game show of 2007.
08:44 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, maybe you pause.
08:47 --> 08:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Pull over.
08:47 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Grab a note pad.
08:48 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You write down your guesses.
08:50 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
08:50 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You could do that.
08:51 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Just do it safely.
08:51 --> 08:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Make sure you pull over.
09:00 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_01]: that that's a good guess.
09:03 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's no, it's not in the top few is not in the top five.
09:09 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Is it Australian something or is it like an American export?
09:12 --> 09:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're asking for hints.
09:13 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm asking for a hint.
09:14 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm both both.
09:17 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that doesn't help.
09:19 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't you just tell me what it is.
09:21 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so dancing with the stars.
09:22 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
09:23 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It takes two, which that is Australian.
09:26 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Australia's got talent.
09:28 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yep.
09:28 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you know, America's got talent probably far lower rated in Australia?
09:33 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that makes sense.
09:33 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Australian Idol.
09:35 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, again.
09:35 --> 09:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, this is that era, makes sense.
09:37 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the fifth rated game show and the 39th show overall in Australia is a show called Spix and Specs.
09:46 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
09:46 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_01]: The host is a guy named Adam Hill.
09:49 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know Spix and Spix?
09:51 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think I know Spix and Spix.
09:53 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_07]: The name is very intriguing.
10:16 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I don't know it, but the songs sounds familiar and you're about to tell me why.
10:25 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't know why it would sound familiar.
10:28 --> 10:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
10:28 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: If we could do a whole deep dive on la la la la la.
10:31 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care.
10:32 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I just am playing someone.
10:34 --> 10:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone is listening from Australian.
10:35 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Go, yeah.
10:36 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:36 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Biggs and speck.
10:38 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, boy.
10:38 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
10:39 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a BG song.
10:41 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's familiar.
10:43 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Spegs and specks is like 1960's BG's.
10:46 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Not disco BG's.
10:48 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_01]: This is like when they were almost like Beatles, the art pop.
10:52 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_01]: They have a tune, Spix and Specs, and this is just a different version of that same tune.
10:56 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Good job, Nicole.
10:57 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, it's familiar.
10:58 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a Dits.
11:00 --> 11:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I couldn't tell Nicole while we're recording that she was actually spot on that this was familiar.
11:05 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you all now, but you have to keep it secret from Nicole.
11:09 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm uploading two versions of this episode, two with the podcast feed, one for her and one for the entire rest of the world.
11:20 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_11]: Here's what the original version of that BG's tune sounds like.
11:34 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_11]: This makes and the space I'm the girls On my mind
11:42 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Also a nice example of the Romaneska chord sequence.
11:46 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Go listen to our Lionel Richie episode on Hello.
11:49 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We talk about chord sequences.
11:50 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the one for basket case and other tunes like that.
11:54 --> 11:56 [SPEAKER_06]: That was the premise of the show.
11:56 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: That clip is for you.
11:57 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:57 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the question.
11:58 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:58 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So the fifth rated game show in Australia in 2007 is a music theme game show.
12:03 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
12:04 --> 12:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So it ran by the way from 2005 to 2011.
12:06 --> 12:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of comedy music trivia.
12:09 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_07]: fun.
12:10 --> 12:11 [SPEAKER_07]: I think great at that.
12:11 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually the show, I'm going to play some clips.
12:14 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It will be fun to have it something like this to be on or whatever.
12:18 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_07]: We can host it.
12:19 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should.
12:19 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get some investors.
12:21 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So 2007 really seemed to have some highlights.
12:23 --> 12:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
12:24 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So they have a Christmas episode in 2007.
12:27 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, this would be presumably at the end of 2007.
12:30 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:30 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_01]: here's people taking random words and putting it on the melody of a carol and can you guess basically name that tune with ridiculous words.
12:38 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
12:38 --> 12:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So here's an example.
12:50 --> 13:00 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a member of Parliament chosen What's the floral emblem of Australia?
13:00 --> 13:12 [SPEAKER_05]: In Australia, everyone's free To practice the religion of their choice true or false
13:16 --> 13:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Nick, we're on the Andrew, what was that song?
13:18 --> 13:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Last Christmas.
13:19 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It was last Christmas, by way.
13:21 --> 13:23 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, but that's not enough, right?
13:23 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give you three examples.
13:24 --> 13:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Link, I show off.
13:25 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_01]: They had weird out on once, which I have to always bring up every single episode.
13:29 --> 13:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And they also played some of his music.
13:32 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So he was a contestant for one of the episodes.
13:34 --> 13:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Round two is called, Look What They've Done to My Songma.
13:37 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_04]: In this round teams have to buzzing and identify the tunes being performed live in the studio.
13:41 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Tonight, your songs will be played by a recorder ensemble
13:46 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, great name.
13:52 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So one place.
14:00 --> 14:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that would be Gorillars feel good.
14:04 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Close enough.
14:05 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_04]: It's feel good.
14:06 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Ain't goodbye the Gorillars.
14:08 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get that.
14:09 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really hard.
14:10 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:10 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, recorders.
14:12 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Awful.
14:13 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That's brutal.
14:13 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can be doing it.
14:15 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_01]: That recorder ensemble.
14:16 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Recordica.
14:18 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably very good.
14:19 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably excellent players.
14:21 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
14:21 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Very out of tune.
14:22 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you.
14:23 --> 14:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so recorder.
14:24 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It is so hard to play the recorder in tune.
14:27 --> 14:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the use it as the third grade instrument you learn, but it's really unforgiving instrument.
14:31 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_07]: And like, why, why are we doing that?
14:34 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_07]: And why do they come home?
14:35 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: They can't even produce the sound.
14:36 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
14:37 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_07]: And then the end of the year, they're like, we got to keep our recorders and bring them home.
14:41 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, take that out of my house.
14:43 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't like it?
14:44 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, one in every thousand students goes on and actually learns it, right?
14:47 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe one in every ten thousand students.
14:50 --> 14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they join it on ensemble.
14:51 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's just, it's a hard, a hard self because it's hard to keep it in tune.
14:56 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so one more example from 2007, this is on Wednesday, September 26th, Carly Robinson from the Australian Kids Show, high five, was the guest.
15:06 --> 15:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Very important to this episode of podcast.
15:09 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And this question came up.
15:11 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Next question with two points.
15:12 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_04]: How long is in this?
15:12 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm the Australian nursery rhyme.
15:13 --> 15:17 [SPEAKER_04]: This riff has been based on as well as the name of the man playing it.
15:26 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_04]: It's meant it works.
15:27 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_04]: It's meant it works.
15:28 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_04]: It's meant it works.
15:29 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Great ham of meant it works.
15:31 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
15:31 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And down under.
15:33 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_04]: No.
15:34 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_08]: We don't know.
15:35 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: That risk has been based on nursery rhyme.
15:38 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
15:38 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll give you one more listen to it.
15:41 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_04]: This bit is special.
15:42 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:49 --> 15:50 [SPEAKER_12]: Oh my God.
15:50 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Couple hours of sitting in the old country.
15:52 --> 15:53 [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what?
15:54 --> 15:57 [SPEAKER_07]: No, notice how they said flutist, not flutist.
15:57 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They say flutist and not floutists.
15:59 --> 16:00 [SPEAKER_07]: Wait, no, they know.
16:00 --> 16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he know.
16:01 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, Cucabura sits on the old gum tree.
16:05 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: He never heard of it.
16:06 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Never heard of it.
16:07 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Cucabura sits on the old gum tree.
16:09 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really have a story.
16:10 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really have a story.
16:11 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a pretty, it's a pretty,
16:14 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get into it.
16:15 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:15 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about men at work.
16:17 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Now let's give it.
16:17 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:18 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:18 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So why did I do all that?
16:20 --> 16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to it.
16:20 --> 16:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
16:22 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Love Australia.
16:23 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: If I had to live in another English speaking country, it's probably the one I would go to.
16:27 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Not Canada, huh?
16:28 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Probably.
16:28 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Canada, you could drive to the United States, but climate wise.
16:35 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Climate wise.
16:35 --> 16:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Climate wise.
16:37 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about down under by men at work.
16:40 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And we are going to talk about plagiarism.
16:48 --> 16:55 [SPEAKER_10]: Let's do this law and mention it Let's do it and hear that law law
17:01 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So, congratulations.
17:03 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember the T-Pane episode?
17:05 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
17:05 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember the third-eye blind episode?
17:07 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
17:08 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those no music theory episodes.
17:11 --> 17:13 [SPEAKER_01]: No music reading, no flats, and sharps.
17:13 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_01]: No harmonies, no melodies.
17:15 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_01]: We are talking about more of a social...
17:18 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_07]: I love a lot of the...
17:19 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I love a lot of the... Really cool.
17:21 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:21 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's musical.
17:23 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're talking about copyright.
17:24 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about plagiarism.
17:25 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_01]: That kind of thing.
17:26 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
17:27 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So you are a fan of men at work.
17:29 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I know this from before or you're at least a fan of Colin Hey right Colin A being the vocalist and is guitar player also played guitar at least one of the guitars Say more about that.
17:40 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw them in 2000 or you saw him in 2000.
17:42 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_07]: I saw Colin hey a few times and his solo stuff is really great great musician
17:48 --> 17:58 [SPEAKER_07]: very stripped down singer songwriter, him in a guitar, great lyrics, really like coming of age type of lyrics that hits a lot of notes for me.
17:59 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_07]: So I have stuff to talk about what like self-played Jerusalem and it involves like Colin Hay, because I still have multiple times.
18:07 --> 18:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, men, would you have a relationship with men at work?
18:09 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, or did you just get into calling a solo somehow?
18:12 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't really have a relationship with men at work.
18:15 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Just got into calling a solo, but I bet if I listened to more men at work songs, I would recognize them as such.
18:23 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_07]: I never like connected dots with men at work songs to think.
18:26 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_07]: But I bet you if you played me songs, I'd be like, oh, I love that song.
18:29 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
18:29 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm going to play a few.
18:31 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
18:31 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, first of all, you know down under, right?
18:34 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
18:34 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You've heard down under.
18:35 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you had Vegemite, by the way?
18:37 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
18:38 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_01]: How I've never had Vegemite.
18:40 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it good?
18:40 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_07]: No, it's not bad.
18:41 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Famously not good.
18:43 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But people like it, you know?
18:44 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_07]: It's very unique.
18:45 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like baloney in America.
18:46 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Like people are a cultured to it, and so some people like it.
18:49 --> 18:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and I think it's like a comfort.
18:51 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think that there's like a cultural comfort around it.
18:54 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
18:55 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_07]: I can like even as you mentioned it, I can like taste the taste a bit.
18:59 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I assume it's Easty.
19:00 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_07]: It's a very easy case and like it's like Easty and salty and like savory in a way that I can see why people like it, but I don't think I could like eat it by the spoonful nor are you meant to.
19:11 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not just me doing an Australia bit.
19:13 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Literally mentioned in the song that you might sandwich in the song, right?
19:17 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_07]: The whole sandwich of Edgy Mike, I mean, I'd put like a little bit on a cracker and right.
19:21 --> 19:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Get after it, maybe.
19:22 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's at the geofilta fish of
19:24 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_07]: It's too good.
19:24 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Of Australia.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it might be.
19:26 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:27 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Will you have a little fulfillment pass over or you pass?
19:30 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not interested in that.
19:31 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I go back and forth.
19:32 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it passes over Stater all.
19:34 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll have a little bit for me.
19:35 --> 19:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an allty right because I didn't grow up with it, but I've been planning it up for Stater.
19:39 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_07]: You probably like that.
19:40 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Never had top liver.
19:41 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so I don't know that much meant at work.
19:43 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I know their famous songs.
19:45 --> 19:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I like the style, the sort of new wave with flute or saxophobic cool.
19:49 --> 19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Colin Hay knows how to build intensity, vocally, and I think I don't know any of his solo stuff.
19:56 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard him perform men at work songs, solo's like just because I've looked up live performances and I see him instead of the band, because the band was really only around for a few years.
20:05 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But something that I really appreciate about this band and maybe about him as a vocalist and a songwriter, though he co-write some of his stuff, is the way that he can build intensity.
20:12 --> 20:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So, here's a few examples.
20:13 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Down Under.
20:14 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the first chorus of the song.
20:14 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_01]: [♪ Music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background music playing in the background
20:39 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, and that's a thing they do in very songs.
20:57 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's who can it be now?
20:58 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, another one of their famous songs 1981 first chorus
21:14 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the second.
21:27 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, speaking of 2007, around 2007, my husband had a flip phone that this was the ringtone on it.
21:35 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_07]: And it was broken.
21:36 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_07]: So whenever he answered the call, it would automatically go to speaker phone.
21:41 --> 21:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And he could only talk on speaker phone on it.
21:43 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_07]: So okay, and this just, you know, nods back to 2007, but like it was just a funny and he lived that way for like a year like every time was a phone call because that's when people may phone call still it would be this as the ringtone and then he would just be like a year and speak your phone did he have the high or the low chorus as his.
22:01 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: What was it just a place of course.
22:03 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh nice.
22:03 --> 22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, cool.
22:04 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, remember that.
22:06 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The third example I'm playing is because this is my favorite then it works on and the best example of him building intensity.
22:12 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't what I want to talk about today.
22:14 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I said plagiarism.
22:15 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to play these songs.
22:16 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're cool.
22:16 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_01]: This song from 1983, the next album.
22:18 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Here's the first verse of Overkill.
22:31 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_09]: and possibly the complications, especially at night.
22:37 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no, that's long, too.
22:39 --> 22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.
22:39 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then compare it to later.
22:41 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_11]: I've got this little thing in my view of your gangshelves.
22:51 --> 22:52 [UNKNOWN]: I've got an end of your game.
22:52 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_11]: The possibility of complications is especially...
22:58 --> 22:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, stretchin' on that one.
22:59 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Dress, oh, I love it though.
23:01 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:01 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a uncommon thing jumping to the higher parts later in the song, but there's something about the way they do it, that just, it does it for me.
23:08 --> 23:11 [SPEAKER_07]: Although songs are great, I am a men at work fan.
23:11 --> 23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And they have a few more singles, but I think they really maybe only had two or three albums.
23:14 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They have some of the same.
23:15 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
23:16 --> 23:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't, I don't agree, but they've got a sound, they have a sound, you know, is iconically minute work.
23:21 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So this song that is to say down under comes from their first album, which is called business as usual.
23:27 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So actually down under was the B side to their non album single from 1980, so that the single was key punch operator.
23:35 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So have you heard the original version of down under?
23:39 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_07]: from the be side of a.
23:40 --> 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a be side of a vinyl single that is now at a print, but still on YouTube.
23:44 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_07]: No, I haven't.
23:45 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Let's hear it.
23:46 --> 23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's totally different, more chilled out, more reggae kind of, they heard the police a few times.
23:52 --> 23:52 [UNKNOWN]: Okay.
24:13 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_07]: All right, I don't love it.
24:15 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't love it.
24:16 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You like the more bouncy.
24:18 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
24:19 --> 24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Poppy one.
24:19 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_07]: I can just do like that though.
24:21 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is definitely their first international hit.
24:24 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So this one hit number one in the US and in Australia.
24:28 --> 24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas you can be now hit number one in the U.S.
24:30 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But only number two in Australia.
24:33 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't look up what beat it out.
24:35 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_07]: Obviously that was my next question.
24:36 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_01]: A more is it is an Australian artist or a UK artist or an American artist?
24:40 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.
24:40 --> 24:41 [SPEAKER_07]: No way to know.
24:41 --> 24:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And then overkill and be good Johnny would be next.
24:43 --> 24:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Those work number three hits in the U.S. Are you Johnny?
24:46 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Be good Johnny.
24:47 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_07]: Not Johnny be good.
24:48 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Not Johnny be good, yeah.
24:49 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I know upside down land down there, so.
24:51 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I was right now years old when I recognize that that's some kind of a play on words.
24:58 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So these guys only have three albums, as I said.
25:00 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So question, do you like the song down under?
25:05 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:05 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because I'm, I like it, but it's also so goofy.
25:11 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely way down the list in terms of these.
25:13 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like men at work, so... Men at work can just sort of like, I don't know, like, I would imagine they wish one of their other songs was their signature song.
25:21 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could look this up, but I bet, and now I'm sure you people would appreciate the number one hit in the United States and things like that, but I could see Colin Hay getting tired of that song more quickly playing it live than getting tired of overkill or something.
25:35 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_01]: That's got a little more emotional kind of resonance to it.
25:38 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_07]: Can I tell you spoiler?
25:39 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_07]: He played all three of them live.
25:40 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The songs he played.
25:42 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And did he do so with Gusto and appreciation for his fandom and not like resentment like that?
25:47 --> 25:50 [SPEAKER_07]: No, there was a lot of resentment and it really went through out, yeah.
25:50 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_01]: He's playing like all of his songs and he's like, his solo songs.
25:53 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, fine.
25:54 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_01]: You've been waiting, you're here.
25:55 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Please don't leave after play.
25:56 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
25:57 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_07]: There was resentment throughout his whole set.
26:00 --> 26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And he'll talk about it.
26:01 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_07]: This was back in 2007 or back in 2007, and especially I saw him again in 2012.
26:05 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_07]: OK. And the tone shifted.
26:08 --> 26:10 [SPEAKER_07]: That there was a lot of resentment.
26:11 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Like it, yeah, it was weird.
26:13 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_07]: The vibe was weird.
26:14 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
26:15 --> 26:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Like he felt like it was just weird.
26:20 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Like the first time I saw him, I was like, oh my, I love his music and it was great to hear his solo stuff.
26:25 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_07]: It was great to hear the men at work stuff, just him with a guitar, singing it.
26:28 --> 26:31 [SPEAKER_07]: And you could really see his vocal prowess that you're struggling with.
26:31 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and you could really show it off.
26:34 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_07]: And then the next time I saw him, it just he felt like he was just panned like checking off a box and getting through a tour date and still grinding on the road.
26:44 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_07]: Just still do in the same songs and you could just he was getting older and tired.
26:50 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:50 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, well, like kind of a jerk.
26:53 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
26:54 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_07]: I know.
26:55 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that's not true.
26:56 --> 26:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get it.
26:56 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just having a bad day.
26:57 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_07]: You probably was good show.
27:00 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You could just divide was a little negative.
27:02 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_07]: It was a good show and I'm going to leave it there for now because there's more I want to talk about in terms of like the tone of the show.
27:10 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so maybe we should all do the photo plagiarism bit and this is going to be a little wide-ranging.
27:15 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
27:16 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
27:17 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: This situation hinges on the introduction to the song.
27:22 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
27:23 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just to say the flute introduction.
27:25 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is how the song begins and then this happens later in the song also.
27:38 --> 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Greg Ham is the flute player and should I fluteist or flute player?
27:47 --> 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: What should I do?
27:47 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Fluteist?
27:48 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
27:49 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_07]: I like flute player.
27:51 --> 27:52 [SPEAKER_07]: We need our help.
27:52 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Our expert.
27:53 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we were told flute player is the most sort of less pretentious way.
27:58 --> 28:02 [SPEAKER_07]: It's not floutest Right, it's never been a slow at least not in we were off the pond.
28:03 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It is we'll say flute player because I have enough Potention and other aspects of this fair.
28:07 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so Greg Ham plays flute and sex and then and do it
28:13 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_07]: You shouldn't even say flautist or flute player, fluteist.
28:16 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_01]: You said place flute.
28:16 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_01]: He has the saxophone player and the flute player.
28:18 --> 28:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's the player.
28:19 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is that flute line alone.
28:31 --> 28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to talk about this flute line, but actually, can I parenthetically, if any of you are learning music, students of music, hobbyists of music, can you listen to what happens during the rest?
28:44 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning when he's not playing.
28:54 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_07]: He's either got a metronome or he's counting the beats and between.
28:57 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_07]: So you can hear the clicker.
28:59 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_01]: You can hear through his headphones.
29:00 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You can hear the actual recording.
29:01 --> 29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's probably playing against playing along with the drummer in the bass player or something.
29:06 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_07]: But he's also kind of like breathing.
29:08 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
29:09 --> 29:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Breathing in rhythm.
29:10 --> 29:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And I talked to my students in my musicianship class all the time.
29:14 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You play the rest.
29:15 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't wait during the rest.
29:16 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You play the rest.
29:17 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_01]: If you've got a coordinate rest at the end of a bar, you're like da da da da da da da.
29:22 --> 29:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't go da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da
29:47 --> 29:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more of a basal.
29:48 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_07]: It's more of a basal though.
29:55 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It might be like a friendless base even or something like that, and it's a little slide in there.
30:00 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's to deal with this, this flute part, especially at the end, was found to be plagiarizing.
30:08 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_01]: What essentially is, but technically is not.
30:11 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: The Australian Folk Tune, Kukuba, right?
30:13 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a folk tune, but it feels that way.
30:15 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a nursery rhyme.
30:16 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Kukuba, and I really wanted to find an Australian group doing it, meaning I look to see if.
30:23 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: the wiggles did it and I couldn't find because the wiggles do like a original they have a they have a song about the kukubara but it's an original they they want the sweet sweet monetary reward of song right and so they don't do as many covers at least not on YouTube and so wiggles is a smart business man right and and so handsome as we've talked about right uh it just so good take it over if you're still pulled over and just Google Anthony wiggles doing yoga that's all
30:52 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, just go through that with this purple way to see purple.
30:55 --> 30:59 [SPEAKER_07]: He has a shirt off for these, but you're welcome here.
30:59 --> 31:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Is he still is he like showing the color because he's I don't remember what color he is blue wiggle purple wiggle when he shirtless does he still have a identifying color like a sweat band.
31:08 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_07]: No, okay.
31:09 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_07]: He's the blue wiggle.
31:10 --> 31:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Lacky's the purple wiggle who was married to Emma and then they got divorced remember and it was like.
31:15 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_01]: We talked with season one.
31:17 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You folks listen to the entirety of season one somewhere in there is Wiggles deep dive.
31:21 --> 31:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I couldn't find a Wiggles version.
31:23 --> 31:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is Larry Gross.
31:25 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_01]: American performer doing it in 1990.
31:29 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_07]: The Cucumber.
31:29 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_07]: This is Cucumber.
31:31 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm surprised you haven't at least sort of heard it even just like, at some kids music concert when your daughter was too.
31:54 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_07]: I've never heard it.
31:55 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm also wondering, is Cucumber like a notably Australian creature?
32:00 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's Australian.
32:01 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
32:02 --> 32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of things, unless it's an introduced species, like brought by somebody else.
32:06 --> 32:18 [SPEAKER_07]: I think a lot of animals are only there, or at least, or at least, because maybe they took this remedy to like pay homage to the land down under.
32:18 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get into it.
32:19 --> 32:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a song about their doing and iconic Australian song about an iconic little it's just an interpolation.
32:27 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So no
32:29 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, let's talk about that.
32:31 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about interpolation a lot in a previous episode.
32:33 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Our last, our last main one.
32:35 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm trying to get it.
32:36 --> 32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Jackie, but it's, is it a quotation is in an homage?
32:39 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_01]: There's sort of different terms that are similar here.
32:41 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But sure, you could say it's in interpolation.
32:43 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_06]: I did it.
32:43 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the song.
32:44 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's just get into what this is and what what's happening here.
32:47 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So the song is written by Marion Sinclair in 1932.
32:49 --> 32:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
32:50 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: She was a music teacher in Melbourne.
32:52 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_06]: Cute.
32:53 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And she wrote it as a part of a contest for the Girl Guides, which is apparently like I'm assuming like Girl Scouts and she won.
33:00 --> 33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it's generally done and the version that I just played goes into this.
33:04 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's done is around sort of like a row of your boat where like you would come in and sing it and not sing it off time and stuff.
33:10 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it's designed to be done.
33:13 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And she won that contest and it got performed and it's basically become like a folk song.
33:20 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: In the sense that nursery rhyme just everybody knows it in Australia and some of us in state side too.
33:26 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it's almost like how happy birthday feels like it's folk music.
33:30 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's always existed, but has an actual songwriter and is under copyright.
33:34 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And theoretically you should pay every time you have you singing.
33:37 --> 33:38 [SPEAKER_07]: This is where we're getting.
33:38 --> 33:39 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
33:39 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to go through the like ownership of this and like the copyright aspect but first let's just listen to a comparison here.
33:48 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a small fragment of the song Cuccabura.
33:54 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So the second line.
33:57 --> 34:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Not Cuccabura sits but Mary Mary King.
34:00 --> 34:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's down under.
34:04 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So, let's pitch shift the flute.
34:07 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, put it in the right time.
34:09 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:09 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Put it in the right tempo, put it in the right key.
34:12 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's Cougabura.
34:13 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And then down under.
34:18 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, dude, that's the same.
34:24 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It is the same.
34:25 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the same.
34:26 --> 34:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It is actually like, literally the same.
34:30 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, of course, this is in the context of the song, right?
34:42 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just this little blitz, right?
34:51 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_01]: B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-
35:15 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So, apparently, Greg Ham.
35:18 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, the flute player.
35:19 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
35:20 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Seems to have improvised this as a kind of joke, right?
35:24 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and an homage, a quotation, whatever you want to say.
35:27 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and down under, just some fun thing.
35:30 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we heard the original version and the songwriters of this song, Colin Hay and the guitarist, Ron Striker.
35:35 --> 35:37 [SPEAKER_01]: The original version doesn't have that.
35:37 --> 35:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just when they did the the full studio version and at that point had the flute player in the band.
35:42 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They added this as a kind of goofy joke and I don't even think anybody even thought for a second.
35:48 --> 35:53 [SPEAKER_01]: This could be one of those things where they maybe didn't even know that this song was under a copyright.
35:53 --> 35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it feels like a folk song to them and we'll talk about what that means in public domain and fair use later.
35:59 --> 36:06 [SPEAKER_01]: But even when they're doing the music video, he is sitting in a gum tree, which is apparently legal with this.
36:06 --> 36:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that's week.
36:07 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I come from a part of San Diego that some Dumbo had brought a bunch of eucalyptus trees to think that the bark could be used for railroad ties, but they curl in the northern hemisphere in the wrong direction in our useless.
36:20 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And but this entire these trees gum trees apparently had infested the entire
36:26 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_01]: part of San Diego, it's while because they're invasive, they're poisonous to their to other.
36:30 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Trevor reen stuff.
36:31 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently that's what a gum tree is.
36:33 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But he's sitting in one in the video.
36:35 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like sort of not trying to hide this.
36:39 --> 36:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But so let's talk through the story and why the hell I brought up Spix and Specs.
36:44 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And why you decided we had to do this non-sensical bit at the beginning where you were demanding.
36:48 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Me talk about 2007 in Man Australia and game shows.
36:52 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_07]: It was a weird move.
36:53 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So down under comes out in 1981.
36:55 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody notices or comments on this, at least not, certainly not legally, right?
37:00 --> 37:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe some of those, at this point, it was like the writer still alive, like Mary, wasn't it?
37:04 --> 37:04 [SPEAKER_01]: She was.
37:05 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:05 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Mary and Sinclair died in 1988.
37:07 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:08 --> 37:18 [SPEAKER_01]: When she died in 1988, she sold the rights, or like upon her death or prior to her death, the rights were sold to Lerick and music publishing.
37:18 --> 37:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So this song also happens to be, and we'll talk about this later, it's under copyright until 238.
37:23 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So after 238, have at it, anybody can do whatever they want.
37:28 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about more about the law later.
37:29 --> 37:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing happens at all about this plagiarism or authorship until literally on the comedy trivia show.
37:37 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This is mentioned as a part of a joke question.
37:40 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: someone in the writing room in that show noticed this or or had a conversation with Greg Ham and he's like hey that song they put it on and two years later because of that it's probably how long it took to kind of get a law publishing company can use it sued men at work for copyright.
37:58 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_07]: But yes, please get that bag.
38:00 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And funny enough, the first thing that was contested was who owns Kukubura in the first place?
38:06 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
38:06 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So like before they decided the merits of whether it was plagiarism, the band's label, which is Sony, claimed that the girl guides owned the song, because it was a sort of a work for hire because she won a contest for it.
38:20 --> 38:21 [SPEAKER_07]: But she held the copy right.
38:21 --> 38:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently, they ruled, yes, she does.
38:25 --> 38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:25 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Laira can did on it.
38:26 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in 2010, the judge decided that it was in fact infringement.
38:31 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Laira can ask for 40 to 60% of all royalties for the song.
38:36 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And the judge decided on what do you think?
38:40 --> 38:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't five percent.
38:42 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, you do that's a lot of money, right?
38:46 --> 38:47 [SPEAKER_01]: For a background flu, right?
38:47 --> 38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the weird thing.
38:48 --> 38:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Dated back just to 2002, I think it must be a statute of limitations situation because the song was at its height in the 80s and they're not, they weren't able to get me after 2000.
38:59 --> 39:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Immunities, which is assumed to be a six-figure song.
39:04 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So think about it.
39:05 --> 39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: This song just from 2002 to 2007.
39:09 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_01]: six figures being only 5%.
39:12 --> 39:17 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's exactly 100, that means the song in those years, those five years made $2 million.
39:17 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So wow.
39:19 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a lot.
39:20 --> 39:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Six figures this tricky, because it could be like 100, which is like, $4.99.
39:25 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
39:26 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
39:26 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, it's a big range.
39:27 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you think?
39:28 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to talk about this whole thing.
39:31 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But what do you think?
39:32 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair?
39:32 --> 39:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they right?
39:34 --> 39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It does appear that it is in there.
39:36 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_07]: it appears that it's in there and I think I'd feel better about it if it wasn't the publishing company getting the money but if it was like her family getting the money I'd feel better if it was the mid 80s and she heard it on radio went hang on a second and like she had like her last years were like blessed for this like into honor her creativity for the girl guys what if the girl guys got the money?
39:58 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_07]: I'd be still be feel better about that and feel less like just a money grab and more like you could do good with that money and maybe the publishing house did too like who knows but
40:07 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about the corporate money grad aspect to this kind of stuff later.
40:11 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_07]: That's the piece of me that like is feels kind of yucky about it.
40:15 --> 40:19 [SPEAKER_07]: But like yeah, I feel like they did take that riff and it didn't make that money.
40:20 --> 40:29 [SPEAKER_07]: That is iconic in a great piece of the song that our first version of the song isn't as good as the second more studio version that has this kuka barra piece and adds to the song.
40:29 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_07]: So like yeah, they should pay who is deserving of that riff.
40:33 --> 40:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that if the flute went ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba
40:42 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, probably, but what it have sold a hundred thousand dollars less, you know, maybe it would have, right?
40:49 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but it's, but you never know and you can't know.
40:51 --> 40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't know.
40:52 --> 40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's hard.
40:53 --> 41:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the other thing, and this goes for a lot of cases where, you know, we talked about how, what is it, Olivia Rodrigo, like used like a one homage Taylor Swift lyric, and she owes a copyright.
41:05 --> 41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: There's, that happened sometimes, and this happened sometimes, but there's also a lot
41:11 --> 41:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I just kind of have a quotation of your piece on the flute and they's that artist to let's say they control their copyright.
41:17 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, cool man, glad you're a fan and it may have been that and I'm not saying I don't even know that they knew Marion St. Claire was still alive or that they knew this song was even under copy.
41:30 --> 41:32 [SPEAKER_01]: They probably thought the song was 10 years old.
41:32 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, folks sounding songs just feel like they're eternal.
41:35 --> 41:36 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a chance that they call her up.
41:36 --> 41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, hey, we've got this song.
41:37 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You want to hear it?
41:38 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about Australian.
41:39 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, you can have it for free.
41:40 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, like a professional curse.
41:41 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_07]: See, like Taylor Swift turned her new album has a song father figure that she doesn't use George Michael's lyrics or melody or anything, but just uses the term father figure and he's credited on that song as like a co-writer because of the title alone.
41:56 --> 42:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But do you think that's a professional courtesy or do you think he's getting sweet sweet money for that too?
42:00 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's both.
42:01 --> 42:15 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's professional courtesy and kind of you mentioned the Olivia Rodrigo Taylor Swift thing and I think it's kind of like the songs all about the music industry Yeah, and how it can be manipulative and how you have to trust the right ball.
42:15 --> 42:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the my check is bigger than yours in the clean version song.
42:19 --> 42:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes I hear the clean version.
42:21 --> 42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: No, not not the no
42:23 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: the Taylor Swift clean version that says like love is the key to open my skies.
42:29 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my god.
42:30 --> 42:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I have like that.
42:31 --> 42:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not kids pop.
42:32 --> 42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's Taylor singing different words.
42:33 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's good.
42:34 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
42:34 --> 42:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of bleeping it out.
42:35 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, no, I think it is all just this.
42:38 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_07]: overarking metaphor that that's but the songs about and then this happened with Olivia and that she's also credit and George Michael on the song because she's using his line as the or his title as her title.
42:51 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like another nod to the fact that like we have to give money.
42:55 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't have to it.
42:55 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be very legally defensible to not do that at all for sure.
42:58 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to model, hey y'all, if you get inspired by me.
43:04 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:08 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's tough.
43:08 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_01]: This is all tough.
43:09 --> 43:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to end my bit here with me bringing up a couple other cases that we can see if we agree.
43:16 --> 43:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:16 --> 43:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
43:17 --> 43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And let me just say before we get into this, I think I've mentioned this probably on the mail bag before lawyers.
43:23 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to be an expert witness on a copyright case for music.
43:27 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I have the right ear for it.
43:29 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I am rhetorically strong.
43:30 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I can make an argumentative case.
43:32 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You may find that I am more likely to side with a certain side of this, though, by the end of this.
43:38 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So you may find that plaintiffs or defendants will want me involved at a different degree.
43:44 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, maybe you're going to talk about Ed Sheeran in this episode, but he went on trial.
43:51 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_07]: That's not the right way to say.
43:52 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_07]: But he went to court about copyright for his song and his lawyers were like, you know, what you have to do Ed Sheeran, you have to get in the witness box or whatever.
43:59 --> 44:02 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not a lawyer and play the song for the jury.
44:02 --> 44:06 [SPEAKER_07]: And he played the song for the jury and was like,
44:05 --> 44:10 [SPEAKER_07]: smiling at them, and he was so charismatic with them, and they loved it.
44:10 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_07]: I could say, Sheeran, and they, like, got lost.
44:12 --> 44:17 [SPEAKER_07]: God, you have the same, you'd bring the Ed Sheeran effect to the courtroom.
44:17 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So I am a baby face ginger.
44:19 --> 44:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just saw him live the other day.
44:21 --> 44:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It was awesome.
44:21 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Who's awesome.
44:23 --> 44:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You did.
44:23 --> 44:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.
44:23 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And was he, was he that had liner?
44:25 --> 44:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
44:26 --> 44:27 [SPEAKER_07]: I never seen him perform.
44:27 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_07]: And he was so good.
44:28 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Cool.
44:28 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:29 --> 44:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll talk about him one day.
44:30 --> 44:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe some good music.
44:32 --> 44:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So, let's talk real quick about copy, what am I kidding?
44:35 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk long and exhaustively about copyright, just though we have the same kind of like, and we haven't yet either.
44:41 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_07]: We're just kidding.
44:42 --> 44:50 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but like, let me explain how it works, I think, because we talk about this, we talk about plagiarism, but what are we really dealing with, especially legally?
44:50 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_01]: The US has a copyright act going all the way back to 1790, which is based on British statutes, but, and then we have one in 1831, 1870, but modern international copyright loss sort of is based around this burn convention in 1886, which will end, right?
45:09 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And this was an
45:10 --> 45:14 [SPEAKER_01]: international agreement between now, people have over the years signed on to it.
45:14 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's 181 countries.
45:15 --> 45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where we get like our definition of the kinds of rights you have the right to reproduce the right to publish things like that.
45:22 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And it also means that it doesn't exactly mean one to one this, but copyright in Australia is to a certain extent enforceable in other countries too.
45:31 --> 45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this finding and the damages that we described were technically an Australian court, those damages don't necessarily apply to all countries, but to a certain extent, like the copyright status of one country is honored by others.
45:45 --> 45:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why, like, you know, the black market and certain other countries is
45:49 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: frustrating because not every country honors copyright in the same right so the United States has several copyright acts where they update it and the one that we kind of live in now is the one from 1976.
46:01 --> 46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
46:02 --> 46:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Those some like old stuff is still technically covered under 1909 but we did have an update later that covered like online things and digital stuff.
46:11 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
46:12 --> 46:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically what we're dealing with here is copyright covers literary work
46:19 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Pantamimes.
46:21 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, because, okay, that's important.
46:23 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Coriography.
46:24 --> 46:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Pantamimes.
46:24 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Pantamimes.
46:25 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
46:25 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's said, then choreography.
46:26 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I wouldn't necessarily, I don't know enough to not just lump that in with kind of choreography.
46:31 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_07]: I guess it's a new one.
46:33 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, it tells you something about 20th century America and what they viewed as the essential art forms, right?
46:39 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Pictorial art, graphic art, sculpture, motion pictures and sound recordings, right?
46:47 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, maybe we could read into what is it cover pantomime, but not monologue.
46:51 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know, we don't need to get into what isn't covered by that and what technically we're really just focused on music.
46:56 --> 46:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And in Australia, their copyright act is 1968.
46:59 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like that's a more even still that seems old compared to like because of current culture.
47:05 --> 47:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But what seems old, what do you mean?
47:07 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, when you talk about the American copyright laws, it's shocking to me that they're not, there's not like a 2020 version of it because there's so much that's changed in the music industry.
47:16 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so there have, like I said, there have been amendments to it.
47:19 --> 47:26 [SPEAKER_07]: There's a digital, let me, it's a, yeah, like there's got to be like, there's got to be AI stuff that's got to be in here.
47:26 --> 47:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think AI is very much not, not there yet, but like, and that's, there's always wild wild west before something really gets updated.
47:36 --> 47:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't write down the year that they did the digital one that updates it.
47:40 --> 47:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but it hasn't updated, but fundamentally we're still in the 1976, so an author of a work, unless they sell these rights, have the rights for reproduction, creating of derivative
47:56 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_01]: distribution, performance, and display, display being not particularly relevant to music.
48:03 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So what we have is anything written before 1923.
48:06 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the sort of line set at least in the United States in 1976.
48:11 --> 48:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Anything before 1923 is automatically in what's called the public domain.
48:16 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to have to stop you because I state before you said 1776 or that's what I heard.
48:21 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
48:21 --> 48:27 [SPEAKER_07]: So this whole time I'm thinking that we're looking at laws 1976 makes a lot more stuff.
48:27 --> 48:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
48:28 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_01]: There was one in 1790.
48:29 --> 48:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the first.
48:30 --> 48:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
48:30 --> 48:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
48:31 --> 48:32 [SPEAKER_07]: I thought we were so clever.
48:32 --> 48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that.
48:32 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
48:33 --> 48:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
48:34 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_01]: 1976.
48:35 --> 48:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So 1923 is automatically in the public domain.
48:38 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what it means for something to be in the public.
48:39 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:40 --> 48:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I can
48:41 --> 48:44 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like an open educational resource that I can like change it.
48:44 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_07]: I can do it up for I want with it.
48:46 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like the public owns a public own.
48:48 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_01]: We own it.
48:49 --> 48:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Like happy birthday.
48:51 --> 48:52 [SPEAKER_01]: not happy birthday, right?
48:53 --> 48:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So happy birthday is technically after, well, let's see, wind.
48:58 --> 49:03 [SPEAKER_07]: So every time someone sings happy birthday in a movie, someone gets paid for that.
49:03 --> 49:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely in a movie.
49:05 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_01]: That has been licensed.
49:06 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's probably not sung that much in movies for that reason.
49:09 --> 49:14 [SPEAKER_07]: I saw a funny TikTok that some people now just sing, they sing it in their heads, but only say birthday.
49:15 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what?
49:16 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
49:17 --> 49:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Birthday.
49:18 --> 49:23 [SPEAKER_07]: birthday birthday birthday.
49:23 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, crap, no, we have to pay lots of things.
49:25 --> 49:27 [SPEAKER_07]: No, we don't, because we just said birthday four times.
49:28 --> 49:29 [SPEAKER_07]: So, and it was under 20 seconds.
49:30 --> 49:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, live podcasting.
49:32 --> 49:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, hey, it's in public domain.
49:35 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So I missed this, but then in the 2010s, the copyright that was claimed on it was determined to be invalid because actually it had been created
49:47 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Cheers.
49:48 --> 49:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So there are old songs that feel like they were made forever ago.
49:53 --> 49:56 [SPEAKER_01]: That technically were made in the 20s.
49:56 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Like the Cucumber song.
49:58 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the Cucumber.
49:58 --> 50:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's the thing.
50:00 --> 50:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Anything before 1923 is public domain.
50:03 --> 50:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So like you could take a Mozart piece or whatever and remix it.
50:06 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't owe Mozart a state in a royalties.
50:10 --> 50:11 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no Mozart a state.
50:11 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But like you could do whatever you want and you could then profit off of it.
50:14 --> 50:36 [SPEAKER_01]: right your new thing will be a new work right i could release happy birthday apparently and just print the lyrics out and sell it and no one can stop me but conversely nobody would buy it because it's a huge mess right so this also though is a rolling scale so there are things that are in the public domain after 1923 so the general rule of thumb in america
50:36 --> 50:41 [SPEAKER_01]: The life of the creator, speaking of music, the life of the composer, plus 70 years.
50:41 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh gosh.
50:42 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, if I were to die today, which I hope not to, that's on how this podcast goes, if I were to die today, this podcast is coming out in 2026.
50:53 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_01]: A song that I wrote today would then be public domain in 2096, right?
51:01 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_07]: 70 years after your death, is that for like, next to Ken reasons, because it's assumed that like your kid's life span, you're, I guess your family can then profit.
51:09 --> 51:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here's the crazy thing, though, a corporate created work, like something that's created is a work for hire for a business.
51:15 --> 51:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
51:16 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Like a commercial jingle or whatever is 95 years.
51:19 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's interesting.
51:20 --> 51:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So like in some cases, that's going to be way longer, right?
51:23 --> 51:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But if the composer lives another 50 years after they write the piece of music, then the that will be longer.
51:28 --> 51:32 [SPEAKER_07]: And is that why it's so important that Taylor Swift owns her master's now?
51:32 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So sound recordings actually have a longer time scale.
51:35 --> 51:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember exactly the number.
51:36 --> 51:39 [SPEAKER_07]: But like now she's in charge of she has created control over her.
51:39 --> 51:41 [SPEAKER_01]: She has created control over it.
51:41 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Master is by the way, meaning the owning of the actual sound recordings.
51:45 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
51:45 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_01]: She already owned or co-owned, depending on the song, the copyright authorship of the musical works themselves.
51:52 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
51:53 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people sell that stuff off, but often artists will keep that.
51:56 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But the masters, the owning of the actual recording itself, is generally owned by the record company.
52:03 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:03 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Be your soul to his masters a couple years ago.
52:06 --> 52:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
52:06 --> 52:10 [SPEAKER_01]: for like, and I thought he was going to quit as soon as he just wanted a bunch of money.
52:10 --> 52:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
52:10 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_07]: And he just needed a bunch of money.
52:12 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the long term, you'll make more keeping on, but probably has enough probably, probably now he has enough, and it's fine.
52:17 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_01]: This is interesting because when they did, they've done periodic extensions to make this longer.
52:22 --> 52:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd have to look into this for the details.
52:25 --> 52:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But
52:26 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_01]: companies like Disney had a big part of this because they realized that their IP was about to become public domain.
52:31 --> 52:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, and that's no good, right?
52:33 --> 52:34 [SPEAKER_01]: No good.
52:34 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want Snow White to be public domain, suddenly, right?
52:37 --> 52:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I made little mermaids everywhere.
52:38 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Well little mermaids will be a while because that's the 80s.
52:41 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
52:41 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But Snow White, of course, the character is public domain because it's an old folk story.
52:45 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But the film, now steamboat Willie is literally in public domain.
52:49 --> 52:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but so that's where some of these amendments have
52:55 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that version of Mickey Mouse is public domain, but it has been determined later that like, okay, there's new secondary and tertiary versions of Mickey Mouse are still protected and so you get in this kind of game, we're like, is it steamboat willy Mickey Mouse there's a plantation Mickey so like I could make a exactly right I could make a Mickey cartoon, but a better be damn close to 1920s or 1930s Mickey and not 1950s Mickey
53:23 --> 53:39 [SPEAKER_01]: and you have composers even sort of you could say classical music composers that are doing like 1955 revisions of their work tweaking a few notes just so they can do the thing they wrote in 1910 isn't they can actually still profit off the clock right exactly so and
53:39 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, artists want to make revisions, artists want to profit off of it.
53:42 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I get it, but when it's like corporations doing that, like I know one of the debates lately is like, if you do a remaster of an album from the 80s or whatever, does it start the clock over again?
53:52 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
53:53 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's still a little TBD, and I don't know.
53:57 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_07]: By the way, is you taking the same recording, you're just mixing it differently.
53:59 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
54:00 --> 54:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And to what extent?
54:01 --> 54:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's somebody's artistic work.
54:03 --> 54:06 [SPEAKER_07]: But they work for Sony, isn't it?
54:06 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and then they get 95 years from that day.
54:09 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, my gosh, that's tricky, tricky.
54:11 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of, isn't it?
54:12 --> 54:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:14 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So Australia, it's actually also 70 years, but used to be 50 years.
54:18 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So Kukubara, she died in 1988.
54:22 --> 54:24 [SPEAKER_01]: becomes public domain in 38.
54:25 --> 54:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is where that 2038.
54:27 --> 54:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is where that burn convention plays in because like we have different copyright laws here.
54:33 --> 54:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But that work is registered fundamentally through Australia.
54:37 --> 54:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So it would also I believe become public domain in the United States because the jurisdiction of that copyright claim is Australia.
54:46 --> 54:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so all right.
54:48 --> 54:49 [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
54:49 --> 54:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's where stuff I think gets interesting.
54:51 --> 54:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We can have a conversation and feel free to talk about call and hey whenever you want.
54:54 --> 54:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:55 --> 54:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's protected.
54:57 --> 54:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, putting aside sound recordings.
54:58 --> 55:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I think let's put aside those the recording that's protected everything about it.
55:02 --> 55:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
55:02 --> 55:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't sample someone's audio and claim the use of that necessarily unless you get clearance and stuff.
55:10 --> 55:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Although we'll talk about fair use.
55:11 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So lyrics are covered.
55:13 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
55:13 --> 55:15 [SPEAKER_01]: lyrics are always covered.
55:15 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_01]: as well as the melody.
55:16 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's where it gets vague though, aspects of the arrangement that are essential to the melody.
55:22 --> 55:23 [SPEAKER_07]: How we define the aspect.
55:23 --> 55:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
55:24 --> 55:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can not copyright a chord progression.
55:28 --> 55:34 [SPEAKER_01]: because it's a court and there have been around for hundreds of years and there's a limited amount of them that exist.
55:35 --> 55:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But there are aspects of a court progression that could be essential voice leading for example.
55:40 --> 55:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Voice leading is the way each note of a court move to the next that's sort of a melody, right?
55:46 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
55:46 --> 55:58 [SPEAKER_01]: it's very ill-defined what exactly is covered and it's subject to a jury or a judge depending on the case in the jurisdiction that probably is not a trained musician.
55:58 --> 55:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Probably not.
55:59 --> 56:02 [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually I probably wouldn't want a trained musician on that jury.
56:02 --> 56:04 [SPEAKER_01]: They would not want me on a jury in a proper right-click case.
56:04 --> 56:04 [SPEAKER_01]: No way.
56:05 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, they'd find out that I probably have an angle.
56:09 --> 56:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm too likely to bring in my outside musical knowledge.
56:12 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_01]: which would defeat sort of the purpose of the closed system of a core case, right?
56:17 --> 56:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, the person wrote the law probably wasn't a musician, because the law also includes pantomimes and all that.
56:22 --> 56:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what one Senator or whatever had a chief of staff that wrote this law that actually understood all the nuance.
56:28 --> 56:33 [SPEAKER_07]: 1970, 90 during the American Revolution was Ben Franklin right in his love.
56:33 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And Matt Law does not count anymore.
56:35 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Then she probably helped write it right that one.
56:38 --> 56:41 [SPEAKER_07]: But this actually his sister probably did, because she was the really the master.
56:41 --> 56:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that right?
56:42 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we have.
56:43 --> 56:44 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we have absolutely.
56:44 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_07]: Ben Franklin was kind of a dud.
56:46 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We need, we need more.
56:47 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Take more of more.
56:48 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_07]: But his sister was like, uh, very, very, very intelligent.
56:52 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Really was like a puppet master kind of for him.
56:54 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_07]: From my understanding.
56:55 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Ben Franklin's sister, right in.
56:56 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, if you're still out there.
56:58 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a question for you this.
57:00 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm running kuka bura little blip Should this be fair use?
57:09 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you heard that term before?
57:11 --> 57:12 [SPEAKER_07]: I've heard the term fair use.
57:12 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_07]: We just explained it to me.
57:14 --> 57:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Did I?
57:14 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, fair use or a public domain.
57:16 --> 57:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Public domain?
57:17 --> 57:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Not the same thing as fair use.
57:17 --> 57:18 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like close, right?
57:19 --> 57:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Fair use is a legal doctrine that's very vague.
57:22 --> 57:24 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no law describing fair use.
57:24 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a sort of court precedent thing.
57:27 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not ironclad.
57:28 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And it means a copyrighted work can be used in certain circumstances without permission required without royalties.
57:37 --> 57:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So not public domain.
57:38 --> 57:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This can't be public domain until 23.
57:40 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but fair use.
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Just that.
57:43 --> 57:45 [SPEAKER_01]: They should be allowed to do.
57:45 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I can give you some factors that we should be weighing, but I'm curious just what your media.
57:51 --> 58:05 [SPEAKER_07]: My immediate thoughts are just that little bit you played should be fair use, but not in the context of like the whole could you can't
58:05 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_01]: tough, right?
58:06 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_07]: It's tough because like I hear that and I think of the minute works on.
58:09 --> 58:12 [SPEAKER_07]: But like, could we put that in the commercial, could we put that in TV show?
58:13 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, you think of the the minute works on?
58:15 --> 58:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Are you think of the minute works on?
58:16 --> 58:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because it is the minute works on.
58:17 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I know.
58:18 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_07]: That's why.
58:19 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_07]: So because it's so ambiguous to me, I think it should be fair use because it's like you're saying it doesn't essentially make you think of Cookebara.
58:26 --> 58:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you also didn't know Cookebara, though.
58:27 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I didn't.
58:28 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, which is notable.
58:28 --> 58:32 [SPEAKER_07]: But like neither did the the
58:32 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_01]: No, the spits and specks, they got it.
58:33 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The spits and specks people got the correct answer.
58:36 --> 58:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, but they were like, what it didn't, it wasn't like, and they were all like, oh, that's, and it's Kukibura.
58:41 --> 58:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But nobody before that had ever said that publicly.
58:43 --> 58:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:44 --> 58:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's crazy.
58:44 --> 58:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody noticed not legally, not publicly in that 20 something year.
58:48 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think that it's tough.
58:51 --> 58:53 [SPEAKER_07]: They're used, like, I should be able to play that for my classes.
58:53 --> 58:54 [SPEAKER_07]: You should play it without any.
58:54 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about the factors that that side that, right?
58:57 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So I should also say that there is a rich history going about hundreds of years of what's called quotation.
59:03 --> 59:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there would be classical composers that would just like drop an amenity of their favorite other dude in Vienna.
59:09 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't think of an example's off the top of my head, but this has been something that's been done for years.
59:14 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_07]: And this one that it work is doing.
59:16 --> 59:17 [SPEAKER_07]: They're just floating the cuckoo bar.
59:17 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_07]: It's not an homage to the land on underarmage.
59:22 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is it?
59:22 --> 59:24 [SPEAKER_07]: I say homage.
59:24 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Pretend more pretentious.
59:25 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm a little pretentious, but I'm a Sam, Sam, flute player.
59:28 --> 59:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think homage is an homage feels like something that you would eat, but not enjoy.
59:33 --> 59:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Like homage.
59:35 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone gave you some homage, you're like, all right, fine.
59:37 --> 59:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:38 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So fair use.
59:39 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_01]: There are four factors, legally that a judge or whoever is supposed to consider when determining
59:45 --> 59:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want us to consider whether this should be fair use for this song.
59:49 --> 59:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I also want us to consider whether our use of short sound clips in our episodes should be protected under fair use.
59:58 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I am confronting this, possibly risky for me to bring this up.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We should talk, okay?
01:00:03 --> 01:00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We should talk.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It's clearly I'm doing that, right, in my edit.
01:00:06 --> 01:00:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So the first one is what is the purpose of the use?
01:00:10 --> 01:00:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So commercial use versus
01:00:12 --> 01:00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: educational.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I really talk about.
01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a cool use.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:17 [SPEAKER_01]: There's all sorts of uses.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So what that means is, and there's no rock solid, but certain purposes are more just viable than others.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say the bottom is probably commercial use, right?
01:00:26 --> 01:00:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The top might be educational use.
01:00:28 --> 01:00:31 [SPEAKER_07]: I think in our podcasts, it's for educational use.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I assert.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_07]: And we have that documented project.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:36 [SPEAKER_07]: And the sabbatical project.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:36 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:37 [SPEAKER_07]: It's documented.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And we do share what the music is.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So down under uses Kukuba for essentially entertainment purposes.
01:00:45 --> 01:00:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Commercial is that go in favor of men at work or of marines and Claire.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Who wins that?
01:00:52 --> 01:00:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this fair use?
01:00:53 --> 01:00:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's entertainment purpose on an album that sold commercially.
01:00:57 --> 01:00:58 [SPEAKER_07]: I think
01:00:58 --> 01:00:59 [SPEAKER_01]: She wins.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think Kukuba wins, right, not fair use.
01:01:01 --> 01:01:09 [SPEAKER_01]: When we play a sound clip, I would say it is educational or analytical for a rhetorical argument about the piece of music, usually.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say we are covered by fair use.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:16 [SPEAKER_07]: And also, we're not like making money.
01:01:17 --> 01:01:18 [SPEAKER_07]: But that's, who's going to come at us?
01:01:19 --> 01:01:19 [SPEAKER_07]: What do they want?
01:01:19 --> 01:01:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think they'll answer my question.
01:01:21 --> 01:01:21 [UNKNOWN]: My crystals?
01:01:21 --> 01:01:25 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, yes, she's gone on Crestable's back there on my base amp, sitting there.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the intoxicating bouquet of the uncrustable.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to see it in the crystal right now.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we're not making money, but I think actually that from a legal standpoint doesn't matter.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
01:01:38 --> 01:01:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we could make a million dollars off of this podcast.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Imagine.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We just started Patreon and just have one level, and it's a million dollars.
01:01:45 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_07]: We just need one hit.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Second, the nature of the work.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:54 [SPEAKER_01]: the degree of creativity used in it to create it.
01:01:54 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that sounds like judgey, whatever, but this is like a news article listing facts is thought legally to use less creativity than a musical composition or a play or a sculpture.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's sort of an objective aspect.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So, both of these are dealing with musical compositions.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Cucuber is not a listing of facts in a court case.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:18 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a musical composition.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_01]: in the favor of not being fair use.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Cooca burrow wins that, right?
01:02:22 --> 01:02:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's fair.
01:02:23 --> 01:02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: The same is true when we play music.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:25 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not playing facts.
01:02:25 --> 01:02:27 [SPEAKER_01]: We are sing musical composition.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Next, the amount of the work used in Cooca burrow.
01:02:32 --> 01:02:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very small.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no, despite what we've kind of talked about in little pieces in previous episodes.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:41 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no, anything under 20 seconds is legal.
01:02:41 --> 01:02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that the more you use, the less fair use it is.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, that makes sense.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Cougabura use is only the second half of the first line of the song is all that used in one blip in down under.
01:02:56 --> 01:03:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think size wise down under that does count as fair use for down under.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We
01:03:04 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_01]: always play a small snippet.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I try to keep it under 20 seconds, 20 seconds or less.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think also we're on the side of fair use.
01:03:11 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Now if I did that with a 25 second song, we would have a problem.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like a percentage.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not it.
01:03:16 --> 01:03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no rule, but that's what it's getting at, right?
01:03:19 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Last.
01:03:20 --> 01:03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is an important one to consider.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: The effect of the use of the work on the market.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So, for example, if you think of like the, you wouldn't steal a car, you wouldn't pirate a whatever, like those, those PSA's in 2000s and you know what you're talking about for a second.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: someone making a copy of a DVD and playing it for their friends is very much cannibalizing a sale.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you could say, well, that person's not going to pay for it.
01:03:46 --> 01:03:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but if that person wasn't consuming the work, you are directly, if I play your song without crediting you, theoretically, I could be causing somebody not to actually pay the owners for there.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's look at minute work.
01:04:01 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Does down under make it less likely that someone would pay to hear the original Poo-Cover.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Not at all.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Not at all.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:09 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, possibly the opposite.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:14 [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, like, now I'm going to go listen to, well, hypothetically go listen to the Poo-Cover song.
01:04:14 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_07]: We're listening to it more today.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:19 [SPEAKER_07]: to analyze this and I ever have a load in the rest of your life.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I would say very emphatically, that is the same with our podcast.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I have ever put in an audio sample of something that we're hating on and we're saying we hate this song, nobody wants to do it.
01:04:30 --> 01:04:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It's generally opposite.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We are boosting.
01:04:33 --> 01:04:33 [SPEAKER_07]: We're like helping.
01:04:34 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, some of you maybe are hardcore fans, which there are some of you.
01:04:37 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:04:37 --> 01:04:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We love you.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: could be listening to this episode, not even knowing the minute works on, but you're like, you know what, I like this Nicole and Mark thing, the description says it's about plagiarism.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm interested.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I like minute work because they played four songs on that house and then it worked hard.
01:04:51 --> 01:04:51 [SPEAKER_07]: And it happened.
01:04:51 --> 01:04:59 [SPEAKER_07]: We have a paper trail on it that someone heard Janelle Monet and one of our episodes and went back and listened to their fan of Janelle Monet and they never even knew about them before.
01:04:59 --> 01:05:01 [SPEAKER_07]: So we're like helping them.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's see if we were a court.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_07]: They should be paying us.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That's, let's take, let's add that as the fifth principle.
01:05:08 --> 01:05:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's take us first because I think it's simpler.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Here are the four categories, purpose of the use, educational or analytical for us, nature of the work, composition, musical composition, that's a strike against us.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: The amount used small in our favor.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The effect of the use on the market, nothing, in fact, probably helpful for us.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:29 [SPEAKER_01]: We fall under fair use.
01:05:29 --> 01:05:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel very strong about that.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean that's legally true.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:33 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no standard.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be determined in case by case in a court.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we'll see what happens if we got sued.
01:05:39 --> 01:05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not gonna.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But if we do, we'd win.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:45 [SPEAKER_07]: We'd win and then we'd be rich.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: because they'd have to.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_07]: They'd have to pay us for all free advertising.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:49 [SPEAKER_07]: We're giving like the Beatles.
01:05:49 --> 01:05:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and we would be also, we would be super famous because all the teenagers would hear all their telling them to stop.
01:05:55 --> 01:05:57 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a cool, we have to listen.
01:05:58 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Now,
01:05:59 --> 01:06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Pucoburra's use and down under the purpose of the use, commercial use or entertainment, strike against them.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: The nature of the work, it's a musical composition, strike against them.
01:06:10 --> 01:06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: The amount used, a tiny part, for them, in their favor.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So the effect of the use upon the market, nothing.
01:06:18 --> 01:06:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So two or four, fair use or not.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, fair use.
01:06:23 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You say fair use, they didn't, the court didn't.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:28 [SPEAKER_01]: They lost, right?
01:06:28 --> 01:06:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that to me seems is such a borderline, literally 50 50 and you as a judge or jury and I don't know what it was have to like way, which ones are more important than I think the fact that it's commercial use probably ways heavily, but like also they were asking for 50% and they got 10%.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:50 [SPEAKER_07]: So like yeah, they won, but the court was like, but like not a lot.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
01:06:51 --> 01:06:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of one.
01:06:51 --> 01:06:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And that, like, what is it actually?
01:06:53 --> 01:07:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably actually should be like 1%, but the 5% is fair because you didn't freaking ask so much.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna have way to make you pay 100k, even though it probably should be $999.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, it might be a lot.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got some other examples that I went to to you to think we're not going to go fair use, but just like talk through the cases.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to pop to you.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But before I do that, one last thing, I just wanted to frame this larger like, what do we do with this?
01:07:23 --> 01:07:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Like article I found in the Journal of Media Arts culture by Steve Collins.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:29 [SPEAKER_07]: Real thing.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: The JMAC.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't do no.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And these are just some assertions that are made by this author.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Copyright protects authors, but also is partially intended to protect society.
01:07:42 --> 01:07:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And the creation of art.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's just making that as an assertion.
01:07:45 --> 01:07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But let me explain a bit of what he means by that after reading through this article.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Copyright exists to protect authors, but also to ensure the creation of new works of art.
01:07:55 --> 01:07:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
01:07:55 --> 01:07:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
01:07:55 --> 01:07:56 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
01:07:56 --> 01:08:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is going to set a, when we talk about possible spurious cases later or whatever, it's supposed to make you feel protected so that you want to keep writing music and that you want to create and you want to publish.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:13 [SPEAKER_01]: This is where AI gets scary because we're getting into a scenario where things aren't maybe incentivized in that direction.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Why should I write a song if the AI music will still be a country radio hit or whatever?
01:08:17 --> 01:08:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:08:18 --> 01:08:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
01:08:19 --> 01:08:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's interesting to think about this case, not being brought by Marion Sinclair, but being brought by Lerick and music publishing.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And question, like, are you protecting the interest of your songwriter?
01:08:33 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you trying to get that bag, trying to get a little money?
01:08:37 --> 01:08:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I say that now because you say it.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I never used to say that.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I said that and somebody, I might've been more wife like, what the hell is that?
01:08:42 --> 01:08:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the hell is that.
01:08:43 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_07]: kid was our kids were little and if you know the never mind the music Laura kids met a daycare at the community college that we both were working yet and our my daughter was just kind of really learning to talk conversationally and I said oh mommy has to go to work and she goes go get that bag mommy and I was like I think that you're picking up stuff here and I've been picking it up for the last decade basically yeah
01:09:06 --> 01:09:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they just trying to cast grab and actually they are hurting the creation of new aren't because I think I look I'm a songwriter like as much as I am a podcaster and a professor I am a composer I need to some extent my copyright to be protected but I want my copyright to protect it in the way that makes me want to write more music and makes people who might hear my music and like it.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:56 [SPEAKER_01]: feel empowered to make music and if that means sometimes using some of my music, that is better than then being paralyzed should do so and that art doesn't get created and it doesn't get remixed and those images don't happen, right?
01:09:56 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Before we talk about famous cases in plagiarism history and self plagiarism, okay, so I've mentioned that I've seen Colin Hay a few times.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 [SPEAKER_07]: At the first time I saw him, I was really into his original songs.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:14 [SPEAKER_07]: They're so, so good.
01:10:14 --> 01:10:16 [SPEAKER_07]: there's so many great examples.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:24 [SPEAKER_07]: If you want to pick one for the nature of this, I'd say waiting for my real life to begin is a really beautiful song of his to check out.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know it, but I'm sure it's good.
01:10:26 --> 01:10:26 [SPEAKER_07]: It's really good.
01:10:26 --> 01:10:29 [SPEAKER_13]: Just be here now.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:32 [SPEAKER_13]: Forget about the best.
01:10:32 --> 01:10:36 [SPEAKER_13]: The mask is wearing thin.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:41 [SPEAKER_13]: Let me throw one more dice.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:43 [SPEAKER_13]: Another that I can't win.
01:10:45 --> 01:10:51 [SPEAKER_13]: I'm waiting for my real life, to leave it in.
01:10:51 --> 01:10:54 [SPEAKER_07]: So we saw him live.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It was so intimate.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:55 [SPEAKER_07]: It was a great show.
01:10:55 --> 01:11:02 [SPEAKER_07]: He had so many awesome stories to tell that were like personal and nuanced and like added value to the songs.
01:11:03 --> 01:11:05 [SPEAKER_07]: His performances were great.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:11 [SPEAKER_07]: The set was perfectly a perfect combination of like acoustic stripped down men at work songs and his new material.
01:11:11 --> 01:11:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:11:12 --> 01:11:18 [SPEAKER_07]: The way that the set was designed had like a really great arc, really great story telling motif, right?
01:11:18 --> 01:11:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, left the show was like calling haste the best, listen to everything, like really gotten into it.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Flash forward a couple of years later, where like calling haste coming back, let's go see him again, like it was so good the first time I can't wait to see what he does next.
01:11:31 --> 01:11:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Mark, the set was exactly the same.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:40 [SPEAKER_07]: The banter between songs was the same, the stories he told, the funny quips, the jokes,
01:11:40 --> 01:11:42 [SPEAKER_07]: And this is the same.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You saw the Boston leg of the tour and you went to it and we came in the next day and it was the same.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Years later exactly the same because he hadn't made music, but he was still touring.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:57 [SPEAKER_07]: And it was just the same bits, the same jokes, the same ribbing of the crowd, and the same spots of the set.
01:11:58 --> 01:12:00 [SPEAKER_07]: And we left him and we were like, what the heck?
01:12:00 --> 01:12:21 [SPEAKER_07]: like I had a couple thoughts like one like I'm never going to see him perform again like I don't need to it's just going to be the same the songs are great like it's nice seeing live but you go to live shows for like the humanity of it and let's just see the three-dimensionality of the artist and it seems so much like he was just working from a script and just going through it
01:12:21 --> 01:12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I thought, well, my Australian father-in-law says the same jokes at every dinner.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe it's an Australian thing.
01:12:27 --> 01:12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But you thought, no, no, because I've got there's examples of American fans doing the same thing.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and I get it, like nowadays, like, yeah, you go, you see a tour and they have like a huge stage production.
01:12:37 --> 01:12:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Like they have to play the same song.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:40 [SPEAKER_07]: It has to be
01:12:40 --> 01:12:44 [SPEAKER_07]: It's on a click and I get it because there's more theatrics involved.
01:12:44 --> 01:12:57 [SPEAKER_07]: This was him and his six could turn into a stage like he had every opportunity for agency and free will to like do crowd work or banter add different stories and different anecdotes.
01:12:57 --> 01:13:01 [SPEAKER_07]: But it was exactly the same word for word almost.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:07 [SPEAKER_07]: And then I thought, you know, not only like, that's a bummer of experience for us, but what about him as a musician?
01:13:07 --> 01:13:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, how boring is that?
01:13:08 --> 01:13:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, every night for years, you're just doing the same script?
01:13:13 --> 01:13:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, is that musicianship anymore?
01:13:16 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Or it just became like his job?
01:13:19 --> 01:13:20 [SPEAKER_07]: And I know it is his job.
01:13:20 --> 01:13:21 [SPEAKER_07]: But,
01:13:21 --> 01:13:23 [SPEAKER_07]: It there was it lacked so much joy.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it could be comforting for him to do it that way.
01:13:26 --> 01:13:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It could be it could be a sign of distress that he's doing it that way.
01:13:29 --> 01:13:36 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know why we're like malaise or maybe it's anxious on stage but still needs to tour and it is a very vulnerable.
01:13:36 --> 01:13:39 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I can't imagine how vulnerable that must be.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:46 [SPEAKER_07]: It makes me think especially layered on with this dialogue what plagiarism, like where just self plagiarism lie in this.
01:13:46 --> 01:13:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Because that's something we come up more eye-shared do as an educator, like a student writes paper for their criminal justice class.
01:13:54 --> 01:13:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:13:55 --> 01:13:59 [SPEAKER_07]: And then comes into my idol, a sentivalment class, and it's the similar kind of content.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Can I just take my paper from my CJ class and put it in my
01:14:06 --> 01:14:10 [SPEAKER_07]: And we say, no, we say that's against academic integrity.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same as plagiarism or copyright violations.
01:14:13 --> 01:14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, but it could be economically dishonest, right?
01:14:15 --> 01:14:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:14:16 --> 01:14:17 [SPEAKER_07]: And then you think, like, the ethics of that.
01:14:17 --> 01:14:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, if it's my work, what difference doesn't make where I put it?
01:14:21 --> 01:14:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's not my opinion.
01:14:22 --> 01:14:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So in mind, it's not so much papers, though, that could be happening.
01:14:26 --> 01:14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't teach enough classes that have papers to ever find out.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:54 [SPEAKER_01]: like my songwriting class students every year will be like hey for this assignment can I turn in a song I wrote last summer and my answer is no like if you wrote lyrics you could put them to music but like I'm not worried about the copyright or the plagiarism it's like we just spent three weeks talking about how to craft a good melody and need you to try that yeah use the it's like a lab or even right now I'm grading I teach an online rock and roll history class and they have to go to a concert.
01:14:54 --> 01:14:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I went to a concert.
01:14:56 --> 01:14:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to boo who and look, I don't mean to trivialize.
01:14:59 --> 01:15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are like, eh, I can't, I can't, I can't, and for that student, I say, okay, well, why don't you find a full-length concert on YouTube and why don't you just, but I need you to find one that has shows the audience, because they're supposed to talk about the vibe and stuff.
01:15:12 --> 01:15:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, the reason I mentioned this is someone will be like, hey, can I, what, I just saw Billie Eilish last spring, can I write about that concert?
01:15:18 --> 01:15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, because you didn't know anything yet.
01:15:21 --> 01:15:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:15:22 --> 01:15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I need you to watch this concert and think.
01:15:24 --> 01:15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that kind of sounds like 1950s rockability or whatever, or like, I need you to be processing everything.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:33 [SPEAKER_07]: You're writing for like the applied knowledge of what you're teaching in class.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're dealing with actual, like, someone did research in one class.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Can they just cannibalize it and use it?
01:15:40 --> 01:15:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Or do you think students like IT to multiple classes?
01:15:43 --> 01:15:47 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I have the same students multiple times throughout their undergraduate career.
01:15:48 --> 01:15:51 [SPEAKER_07]: I've had students that I've been reading a paper.
01:15:51 --> 01:15:53 [SPEAKER_07]: And I've been like, I've read those before.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not plagiarism.
01:15:54 --> 01:15:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's because it was last semester.
01:15:56 --> 01:16:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Because I read it before you submitted the same thing when we were in our adolescent unit of lifespan development for this assignment in adults.
01:16:02 --> 01:16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Do better things.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Do better, you got to.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:06 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, but is it?
01:16:06 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_07]: And then you think, like, right?
01:16:07 --> 01:16:08 [SPEAKER_07]: They're busy.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:10 [SPEAKER_07]: They have a lot going on.
01:16:10 --> 01:16:11 [SPEAKER_07]: It's different.
01:16:11 --> 01:16:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Like research is research is research.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:19 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, in developmental psych, if you're using research that's five years old, like that's, that's okay, right?
01:16:19 --> 01:16:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Like it's, it doesn't change so much.
01:16:22 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_07]: And then I think of Colin Hay, like, can I fault him for that?
01:16:25 --> 01:16:27 [SPEAKER_07]: Is it quote self plagiarism?
01:16:27 --> 01:16:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Is it ethically okay?
01:16:28 --> 01:16:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Or is it just like a guy at work just trying to get his bag as it were?
01:16:32 --> 01:16:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say it's 100% ethically okay.
01:16:35 --> 01:16:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you don't have to like it.
01:16:38 --> 01:16:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, then we go back to our Weezer conversation when like do we want them just to play the hits?
01:16:42 --> 01:16:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Or do we want them?
01:16:43 --> 01:16:44 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I'm paying you.
01:16:44 --> 01:16:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I paid good money for that second call in a show.
01:16:47 --> 01:16:48 [SPEAKER_07]: It was tickets were not.
01:16:48 --> 01:16:49 [SPEAKER_07]: She was like at the Weng Center in Boston.
01:16:49 --> 01:16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It was beautiful by the middle.
01:16:51 --> 01:16:53 [SPEAKER_07]: Got all dressed up, got a babysitter, went up to dinner.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:55 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that was an expensive night.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:58 [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like I'm, this is not painting me in a good color.
01:16:58 --> 01:17:00 [SPEAKER_07]: But like I feel like I'm old.
01:17:00 --> 01:17:04 [SPEAKER_07]: new material, like for all that.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:15 [SPEAKER_01]: My relevant version of that is we might talk about them later the season but the Eagles at very mixed opinions about the Eagles that I can get into later, but I love a lot of the music of Eagles.
01:17:15 --> 01:17:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:17:16 --> 01:17:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You can tell why you could it's like very like a bull country rock with cool vocal harmonies and great vocal like it's my bag right so I saw them at the Hollywood Bowl back in you know the 2000s or something and it was I think right after Don Felder was fired and they were still really great even though they didn't have Don Felder and like
01:17:33 --> 01:17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They sounded so good.
01:17:34 --> 01:17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I saw them, but I was thinking like, man, it sounds just like the album.
01:17:38 --> 01:17:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Even Joe Walsh, this incredible guitar player, is doing like the same solo in the song.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the city or whatever, he's playing the same solo.
01:17:46 --> 01:17:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, that's kind of weird.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They're so good.
01:17:48 --> 01:17:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But they're so practice, so maybe you kind of have.
01:17:51 --> 01:17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we saw them again, maybe five years later at...
01:17:56 --> 01:17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: the forum.
01:17:56 --> 01:17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, we're coming back to the forum.
01:17:57 --> 01:17:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That was our where we because they're in LA band.
01:17:59 --> 01:18:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It was this big thing.
01:18:00 --> 01:18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to say it was the same set, but it sounded the same.
01:18:04 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, God, man, you guys are so good.
01:18:07 --> 01:18:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to see a little bit more life.
01:18:09 --> 01:18:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And this wasn't passionate or something.
01:18:11 --> 01:18:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like
01:18:11 --> 01:18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need the same guitar solo, I just listen to your studio and their bands were kind of wish.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: They sounded more like their album because the sound is too rough for whatever.
01:18:19 --> 01:18:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like their studio albums are so polished.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: See you live.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to see a little more.
01:18:24 --> 01:18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to hear Don Henley's voice cracker.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's just it.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:37 [SPEAKER_07]: I want to appreciate their professional musicians and this is their job, but there are certain bands that you see like when I saw Tom Petty Live, which was a great show, absolutely.
01:18:37 --> 01:18:39 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm so thankful I got to see him live.
01:18:39 --> 01:19:09 [SPEAKER_07]: you could have closed your eyes and thought you were listening to a grace hit CD because it was so polished which is a testament to how great of a musician these folks are and and how good the backing track is played right and add a live show you want to see that grit and humanity like that's why live music is awesome because you see this this is kind of ruggedness and even in more polished productions like I think I spoke on
01:19:09 --> 01:19:20 [SPEAKER_07]: more recently and it was very ascripted set because it had to be with like production aspects but there was still like a lot of improvising with the crowd and a lot of like and there's a lot of physicality to that.
01:19:20 --> 01:19:32 [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of physicality and lots of interaction with the crowd is when you're on stage and you're like a robot just like blindly performing the same jokes and waiting for the laughs at the same time like that's and I don't like it.
01:19:32 --> 01:19:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that this is the way it has to be like I think this reflects the personal biases we have a million percent but I'm entitled to my body because some people probably want to see the go sound exactly like their records or call in hay but do they want to see that call in hay show if they saw it five years ago the same show that's the question the same section like I want us I've seen other acts that so excited to see and then you get there and it's like oh you're just
01:19:58 --> 01:20:05 [SPEAKER_07]: It feels like you're a puppet version of yourself, like James Brown, also Neil Young was a really disappointing for that reason.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting live because they were just mowning it in.
01:20:08 --> 01:20:10 [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, but of course they are.
01:20:10 --> 01:20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: All of these artists you're talking about, though, are sort of in the nostalgia circuit.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They are.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Colin Hay may be in the 2000s not as much, but even then, his heyday was the 80s.
01:20:19 --> 01:20:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Neil Young, heyday, I would say, the 70s, right.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:23 [SPEAKER_01]: The Eagles, same 70s.
01:20:24 --> 01:20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And
01:20:25 --> 01:20:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Benson Boons, hey, days now, so like, I bet, I mean, I haven't watched a lot of Colin hay live, but like I've watched videos of the Eagles in the 70s and I would love to be one of those shows.
01:20:39 --> 01:20:53 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not exactly in part of it as they didn't have the money probably to do it the same way and they didn't have the technology, but like there is something about we talked on our mail bag about like sugar ray, one of our listeners wrote in about seeing sugar ray and they played all the hits and
01:20:53 --> 01:21:01 [SPEAKER_01]: that show is different than sugar ray in the 90s would have been because sugar ray in the 90s wasn't appealing to our nostalgia.
01:21:01 --> 01:21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They were appealing to whatever the heck was going on Gen X early millennial in the late like 90s and doing their thing, right?
01:21:08 --> 01:21:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it does change when you become a nostalgia act that I think you can expect a little more
01:21:17 --> 01:21:19 [SPEAKER_07]: I can understand it all.
01:21:19 --> 01:21:20 [SPEAKER_07]: I can see both sides, dude.
01:21:20 --> 01:21:25 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm capable of this dichotomous thought, but I recognize that they're older artists.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:28 [SPEAKER_07]: I recognize they're on this nostalgia circuit.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:38 [SPEAKER_07]: And they are kind of looking to maybe please the crowd, but also in some ways just kind of ensure their financial stability while they still can.
01:21:38 --> 01:21:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I get all that and have been disappointed.
01:21:42 --> 01:21:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:21:42 --> 01:21:48 [SPEAKER_07]: with this level of like self plagiarism, specifically at the college show, because that we're talking what today.
01:21:48 --> 01:21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the bits, I think that probably put it over here.
01:21:50 --> 01:21:51 [SPEAKER_07]: It was the bits, the like, why?
01:21:51 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_07]: And we looked at each other, it was like, I know this joke.
01:21:55 --> 01:21:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, it was the same exact joke.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so funny because sometimes I'll have I do bits in my class for sure I do like I do this whole bit There's there's a type of cord called an augmented six cord and there's the French one and the German one and the Italian one And it's arbitrary why they're called that but I'll bring up a map of Europe and like show them a namanic of how to remember which one's which and someone in my class was just like
01:22:17 --> 01:22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: you've done that bit before because I have videos of previous lectures that I keep for students who miss class and this guy had looked ahead because he you know he wanted to work extra harder whatever good for him he's like you did the same joke and I'm like well yeah good joke you remember it right but also like
01:22:33 --> 01:22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the, again, back to my Australian father-in-law.
01:22:35 --> 01:22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He'll say, oh, all that changes.
01:22:37 --> 01:22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Same joke, new audience, right?
01:22:39 --> 01:22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yeah, except for your poor daughter and your poor wife's, well, that happens to be a little.
01:22:42 --> 01:22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that happens to be a little.
01:22:43 --> 01:22:47 [SPEAKER_07]: I do, I teach multiple, like, I have the same students in multiple classes.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 [SPEAKER_07]: And some days, not even for, I definitely have bits of a content that they've heard before.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:55 [SPEAKER_07]: And if they're listening to the podcast, guess what, this is all my bits.
01:22:55 --> 01:22:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, now it's on the podcast.
01:22:57 --> 01:23:01 [SPEAKER_07]: It's, I'll have like, banter bits throughout the day, like,
01:23:01 --> 01:23:06 [SPEAKER_07]: about like a Taylor Swift album or about like something that happened in the news or like a joke that I thought of.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:10 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'll just say that same joke six times a day for every different class I do.
01:23:11 --> 01:23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to break into their little brain and get them to remember something.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Well that's the thing.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like if I tell you this joke and make you laugh one, I know laughter helps us learn by increasing like dopamine responses in our brain.
01:23:21 --> 01:23:24 [SPEAKER_07]: And that's the learning informing new memories.
01:23:24 --> 01:23:30 [SPEAKER_07]: And we remember things more of a narrative when there's jokes attached that's just how we are as humans.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:33 [SPEAKER_07]: So I always say, like, let's say, no, I joke around a lot in class.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:41 [SPEAKER_07]: I know I jump around a lot and like say the same bit over and over again, but I'm trying to get you remember it and this is going to help you remember it.
01:23:41 --> 01:23:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also like you've said that thing five times in five different ways.
01:23:45 --> 01:23:50 [SPEAKER_01]: some of those ways like that's you varying your instructional methodology like I'm going to put it on the board.
01:23:50 --> 01:23:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to look at you and say it.
01:23:51 --> 01:23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to sing it.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to and yeah.
01:23:53 --> 01:24:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes it's going to be a thing you did before, but you can't just be told it once and then be tested on it.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Not really.
01:24:01 --> 01:24:03 [SPEAKER_07]: No, you need to be like some people are visual learners.
01:24:03 --> 01:24:07 [SPEAKER_07]: Some people are auditory like we need to appeal to.
01:24:07 --> 01:24:12 [SPEAKER_07]: gardeners, different multi-intelligencies here, but this isn't becoming a different podcast.
01:24:12 --> 01:24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This is really fascinating.
01:24:14 --> 01:24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we wrap up by a few exciting examples?
01:24:17 --> 01:24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:24:18 --> 01:24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:24:18 --> 01:24:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So, case number one.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to get your take on, first of all, who do you think one, if this was in a case?
01:24:28 --> 01:24:31 [SPEAKER_07]: If there's a pile of money to be awarded in these examples, who gets the money?
01:24:32 --> 01:24:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to kind of explain, because not all of them are suits.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are settled out, right?
01:24:36 --> 01:24:50 [SPEAKER_03]: So, first one, 1963, the Beach Boys surf in USA.
01:24:53 --> 01:24:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're in their baby, we're our chiselos too.
01:24:59 --> 01:25:05 [SPEAKER_03]: A bushy bushy bond here, serving you and saying.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Five years before, 1958.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck Berry, sweet little 16.
01:25:12 --> 01:25:18 [SPEAKER_00]: They're really rocking in Boston and Pittsburgh, PA.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Deep in the heart of Texas.
01:25:34 --> 01:25:34 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you got?
01:25:35 --> 01:25:37 [SPEAKER_07]: I think the money should go to Chuck Berry.
01:25:37 --> 01:25:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:41 [SPEAKER_07]: That it wasn't that far apart.
01:25:41 --> 01:25:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Like the beach, the thing that I think of as five years is that I think the beach boys have heard that and like they for sure could of.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna talk about that actually.
01:25:50 --> 01:25:51 [SPEAKER_07]: That's an important piece.
01:25:52 --> 01:25:56 [SPEAKER_07]: And like it makes sense that they would have heard that and been inspired by it.
01:25:56 --> 01:25:58 [SPEAKER_07]: It was so close in time and it's so on the nose.
01:25:59 --> 01:26:00 [SPEAKER_07]: You gotta give it to Chuck Berry.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:01 [SPEAKER_07]: It's on Amaz.
01:26:01 --> 01:26:02 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like,
01:26:02 --> 01:26:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So what you're describing is something called the inverse ratio rule that I want to talk about in our next example, but there is no way that they didn't know Chuck Berry.
01:26:11 --> 01:26:13 [SPEAKER_01]: They were obviously fans of that kind of music.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:16 [SPEAKER_01]: This one actually did not get as far as a suit.
01:26:16 --> 01:26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It was credited to Brian Wilson in 1963, but by 1966 releases of this record or whatever.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: surfing USA record includes Barry as a girl right they were like oh yeah that 100% we did that and then noted villain Mike love beach boy beach boy vocalist he's kind of a villain in a lot of the beach boy stories I'm sure we'll talk I don't really know more later like more
01:26:39 --> 01:26:41 [SPEAKER_01]: He's the, let's stick with the formula guy.
01:26:41 --> 01:26:43 [SPEAKER_01]: He's quoted when they were doing pet sounds.
01:26:43 --> 01:26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Either pet sounds are smile, which is all like artsy and cool.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:48 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, let's get to back to the formula.
01:26:48 --> 01:26:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like music critics and like music fans kind of hate my club because and I actually will defend a lot of his contributions to the band.
01:26:57 --> 01:27:07 [SPEAKER_01]: The Beach Boys can't be the Beach Boys without my club full stop, but he also represents the, let's stick to surfing and car songs instead of due, God only knows.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he didn't like God only knows, but like he was not on the side of let's get crazy and a lot of music Visionados myself included love it when they got crazy and he was more of a businessman than an artist
01:27:18 --> 01:27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he was more of a businessman than the rest of them.
01:27:21 --> 01:27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:27:21 --> 01:27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a mean part of that.
01:27:22 --> 01:27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but speaking of businessmen, the probably psychologically abusive father of the Wilson Brothers, Murray Wilson was like their manager, and he was apparently pretty toxic guy.
01:27:33 --> 01:27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But Chuck Barry's publisher pressured Murray, who then assigned all of the publishing for the song to Ark music, which is Barry's publisher.
01:27:42 --> 01:27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So like Chuck Barry is a co-writer on the song, but the publishing is actually owned by
01:27:47 --> 01:27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck Berry.
01:27:47 --> 01:27:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So like fully controlled.
01:27:49 --> 01:27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So that one was sort of acknowledged as sort of a copy.
01:27:54 --> 01:27:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But also like rock and roll of that era is all 12 bar blues like it's all right.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Like and that's the only thing that's like maybe not because I know that all the stuff is pretty derivative of itself and other things.
01:28:04 --> 01:28:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But for really it's when it goes all over the data.
01:28:07 --> 01:28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the same.
01:28:09 --> 01:28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so close.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that with different lyrics and backing vocalists.
01:28:13 --> 01:28:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Case number two.
01:28:14 --> 01:28:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:28:15 --> 01:28:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Little song you've heard, Led Zeppelin, 1971, Star Way to Heaven.
01:29:20 --> 01:29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thank you.
01:29:21 --> 01:29:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I have opinions.
01:29:22 --> 01:29:25 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm giving the money to Led Zeppelin.
01:29:25 --> 01:29:26 [SPEAKER_01]: no plagiarism.
01:29:26 --> 01:29:35 [SPEAKER_01]: No plagiarism because there we're going to have it and it's like parenthetically, Led Zeppelin has been accused of plagiarism and probably did in a lot of other cases, put those aside, just on this song.
01:29:35 --> 01:29:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Just on this song, I feel like the second clip you played is like kind of going, it's different.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:45 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like going downward and so we're going upward if that's not going.
01:29:45 --> 01:29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We're both definitely going downward the baseline.
01:29:47 --> 01:29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's just a guitar.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:49 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:50 [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds
01:29:50 --> 01:29:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds different.
01:29:51 --> 01:29:52 [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds different.
01:29:52 --> 01:30:00 [SPEAKER_07]: And also, in no music stores, are you seeing what's the name of the first song, the second song you're playing?
01:30:00 --> 01:30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They're rid of it.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Torres by spirit.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:02 [SPEAKER_07]: You know what I was saying?
01:30:02 --> 01:30:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Don't play Torres by spirit, saying no stairway to heaven.
01:30:06 --> 01:30:07 [SPEAKER_07]: You're saying for help.
01:30:07 --> 01:30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Because, staring to have it is so famous.
01:30:08 --> 01:30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that isn't, that may not be a good argument, like who does the original version of a hound dog or what if think some super famous Elvis song like there's some black artists that did it first.
01:30:18 --> 01:30:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We can say, well, we've never heard of them, that's, that's on them.
01:30:21 --> 01:30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there could be reasons for that.
01:30:22 --> 01:30:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying that's what it is.
01:30:23 --> 01:30:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Do these two just let's up women's spirit live in the same region?
01:30:27 --> 01:30:29 [SPEAKER_07]: Like is there any way the let's up one could have plausibly heard.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about that.
01:30:30 --> 01:30:32 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I think that stuff matters.
01:30:32 --> 01:30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So Taurus is written by the guitarist of spirit Randy California who died in 1997.
01:30:38 --> 01:30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Guess what?
01:30:39 --> 01:30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: The trustees sued in 2014.
01:30:41 --> 01:30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not this is where you immediately should one I don't know.
01:30:46 --> 01:30:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we should immediately wonder when it's someone trying to get money two decades after the author dies though that it was I think backed by some members surviving members of the band and they claimed in this case they didn't have the money to open a suit earlier.
01:30:59 --> 01:31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, okay, that could be fair.
01:31:00 --> 01:31:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying waiting till the person's dead is always a bad thing.
01:31:04 --> 01:31:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It took several years, but in 2020, so initially they sided the court sided with Zeppelin and then it kept getting appealed.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've court of appeals federal court.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So pretty high up there.
01:31:15 --> 01:31:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's right below the Supreme Court.
01:31:17 --> 01:31:23 [SPEAKER_01]: sided with Zeppelin and what was interesting about this is, I mean, I think we can just talk about the merits of it.
01:31:23 --> 01:31:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Like,
01:31:24 --> 01:31:27 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the intro to Stairway to have in the iconic intro.
01:31:27 --> 01:31:29 [SPEAKER_01]: This is actually buried in the middle of Taurus, so it's not.
01:31:29 --> 01:31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's necessarily that important, but it's not as iconic to that song, but also fundamentally this is a chord progression.
01:31:38 --> 01:31:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And the chord progression is very similar except for one very clear turn.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And there is a descending line in there called a line cliche where the lowest note goes down by half steps, but that's happened for
01:31:48 --> 01:32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: forever hundreds of years and so you can say there are aspects of the arrangement that are copyrightable but this one's borderline because it's really not lyrics not melody right now interestingly about that quarter of appeals is they overturned something called the inverse ratio rule which was a practice not a law but like a precedent basically and what that states is if someone has access to a song
01:32:14 --> 01:32:17 [SPEAKER_01]: then you can prove they've heard it like Chuck Berry or whatever.
01:32:17 --> 01:32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously these teenagers heard Chuck Berry.
01:32:20 --> 01:32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Then the similarity is less.
01:32:22 --> 01:32:24 [SPEAKER_01]: The need for similarity is less.
01:32:24 --> 01:32:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I could agree with that.
01:32:25 --> 01:32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then if you had weak access, meaning like it's unlikely that you ever heard the song, then the songs need to be more similar to prove copyright.
01:32:33 --> 01:32:35 [SPEAKER_07]: I think that that makes a lot of sense.
01:32:35 --> 01:32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: that was repealed that so that was determined in 2020 that because I think the argument was that what was about whether whether they knew the song and how much how close does the progression of the notes need to be based on the fact that tourists wasn't that famous.
01:32:51 --> 01:32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: They were in the same circles.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure the sort of psychedelic 60s kind of vibe.
01:32:56 --> 01:32:58 [SPEAKER_01]: They probably had heard that man maybe even heard the song.
01:32:59 --> 01:33:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was actually it's no longer in the United States at least
01:33:03 --> 01:33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: relevant.
01:33:04 --> 01:33:07 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I can't because we've got all here anything from anywhere now.
01:33:07 --> 01:33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's actually an important aspect in 2020.
01:33:10 --> 01:33:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a different reality than it may be in 1960s where was sweet little 16 on the radio?
01:33:16 --> 01:33:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes or no, that proves whether or not Brian Wilson heard it properly right there.
01:33:20 --> 01:33:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It becomes almost irrelevant, which kind of makes things just about the merits of the music of it.
01:33:26 --> 01:33:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
01:33:27 --> 01:33:32 [SPEAKER_01]: which maybe is better, but again, we have untrained people adjudicating this stuff, untrained in music.
01:33:32 --> 01:33:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Last one.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're done.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you've got that uncrustable.
01:33:35 --> 01:33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You want to eat.
01:33:36 --> 01:33:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So, case number three, 2013, Robin Fick, plus TI, plus Farell, learned lines.
01:33:44 --> 01:33:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
01:33:45 --> 01:33:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I know I know this song.
01:34:06 --> 01:34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you just groaned.
01:34:08 --> 01:34:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I know why you groaned.
01:34:09 --> 01:34:11 [SPEAKER_01]: The song's kind of rough.
01:34:11 --> 01:34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: We run along.
01:34:12 --> 01:34:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk about it in another time?
01:34:13 --> 01:34:14 [SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
01:34:14 --> 01:34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of a cool buff, right?
01:34:15 --> 01:34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
01:34:16 --> 01:34:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Problematic song, maybe we can cover that in a minute.
01:34:18 --> 01:34:19 [SPEAKER_07]: I like the song.
01:34:20 --> 01:34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, yes, I think it is 1977's Marvin Gaye got to give it up.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
01:34:43 --> 01:34:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I give it to Marvin Gaye for very- Because you don't like Robin Gaye.
01:34:48 --> 01:34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:34:48 --> 01:34:54 [SPEAKER_07]: No, I wish there was a more academic and legally is way to say it, but just the vibe is the same.
01:34:54 --> 01:34:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so my question is, does copyright law protect vibe?
01:34:58 --> 01:35:04 [SPEAKER_01]: What did I say it covers lyrics, melody, and some aspects of the arrangement to be vaguely determined?
01:35:04 --> 01:35:07 [SPEAKER_07]: I think this is some aspect of the arrangement to be vaguely determined.
01:35:07 --> 01:35:09 [SPEAKER_01]: There's literally no melody there though.
01:35:09 --> 01:35:14 [SPEAKER_07]: No, but like the baseline and the vibe is the same.
01:35:14 --> 01:35:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a baseline copy rideable.
01:35:16 --> 01:35:25 [SPEAKER_07]: No, but maybe it is maybe it's not intrinsic to the melody and make sense to me that Robin thick heard the Marvin gay song for Rell heard the Marvin gay song.
01:35:25 --> 01:35:26 [SPEAKER_07]: That makes sense to me.
01:35:26 --> 01:35:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Literally, apparently the story is they were going to make this make a record or whatever or some amount of songs and thick told for L. This song is one of my favorite songs.
01:35:36 --> 01:35:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we make it homage?
01:35:37 --> 01:35:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we make something similar?
01:35:38 --> 01:35:40 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, then you need to credit it.
01:35:40 --> 01:35:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we?
01:35:41 --> 01:35:46 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's a professional integrity, which I don't think Robin Thick has a lot of, sorry.
01:35:46 --> 01:35:52 [SPEAKER_07]: I think that you do need to credit it just like Taylor's so credit or George Michael is just a sign of professional courtesy.
01:35:52 --> 01:35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just a vibe.
01:35:54 --> 01:35:58 [SPEAKER_07]: but it's derivative and purposefully delivers it.
01:35:58 --> 01:36:00 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like he said, let's make it online.
01:36:00 --> 01:36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a song, I wrote a musical in the 2010s and I have a song that I can't find a copy of.
01:36:05 --> 01:36:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like the vibe of the opening to act too of the musical has the vibe of a music song.
01:36:11 --> 01:36:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a distorted bouncy bass line and a synth sound that I tried to kind of,
01:36:15 --> 01:36:35 [SPEAKER_07]: make sound the same melody completely different lyrics obviously complete everything is completely different but the sounds are evocative of that news song and wouldn't for like your own artistic integrity wouldn't you want to just give a give actual homage not just lyrical or instrumental homage to the source musician
01:36:35 --> 01:36:40 [SPEAKER_07]: So, so people know that you know that you're taking it from, not taking it from.
01:36:40 --> 01:36:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not saying that publicly if somebody asks me, does this sound like music?
01:36:42 --> 01:36:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, I'm trying to say, but that's not the same, I'm trying to think of an example.
01:36:47 --> 01:36:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Green Day comes out and then fall out, boy, 10 years later, whatever, I have to give a share to Green Day because they were inspired by Green Day's pop punk style.
01:36:57 --> 01:37:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Not, but this isn't, this isn't Robin Thick being inspired by Marvin Gaye.
01:37:01 --> 01:37:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Of course he was.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:05 [SPEAKER_07]: It just makes sense in the music history moment that he would be.
01:37:06 --> 01:37:14 [SPEAKER_07]: But he's taking a specific song, a specific vibe, a specific beat and tone of the song, and interpolating it.
01:37:14 --> 01:37:15 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's not.
01:37:15 --> 01:37:17 [SPEAKER_07]: He's not even, he's just taking it.
01:37:17 --> 01:37:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, he's not interpreting.
01:37:18 --> 01:37:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Turbulating will be playing that song.
01:37:21 --> 01:37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: He's creating something that evokes that you can tell that I fall.
01:37:25 --> 01:37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me tell you what happened.
01:37:26 --> 01:37:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:37:27 --> 01:37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like we disagree.
01:37:28 --> 01:37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I just don't like Robin thick and I think and I don't want to get into that right now, but I think you might be right, but like for LTI, they might be cool guys I don't know, but Robin thick problematic for sure.
01:37:37 --> 01:37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So weirdly Marvin Gaye's estate.
01:37:40 --> 01:37:41 [SPEAKER_01]: No Marvin Gaye was dead.
01:37:41 --> 01:37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: He dead in mind.
01:37:42 --> 01:37:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a legal thing.
01:37:44 --> 01:37:46 [SPEAKER_07]: He dead when the song came out.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, so he never heard the Robin thick song.
01:37:48 --> 01:37:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Marvin Gaye died young.
01:37:49 --> 01:37:53 [SPEAKER_07]: So we can't say that like Marvin Gaye was cool with it and his family wasn't.
01:37:53 --> 01:37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Marvin Gaye died in the 80s.
01:37:55 --> 01:37:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
01:37:55 --> 01:37:57 [SPEAKER_07]: So he never even heard the song.
01:37:57 --> 01:38:00 [SPEAKER_07]: So we can't say that like, oh, it was his family like looking like grab money.
01:38:00 --> 01:38:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Like we don't even know.
01:38:02 --> 01:38:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We just did Oasis a couple months ago.
01:38:05 --> 01:38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, all of that sound and vibe tripping of John Lennon in those Oasis songs.
01:38:11 --> 01:38:13 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know John Lennon is sent.
01:38:13 --> 01:38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They're inspired by John Lennon.
01:38:14 --> 01:38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They are trying to sound like that.
01:38:16 --> 01:38:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, if we look at, okay, what happened is Marvin Gaye's estate was talking smack, apparently like people were saying this song sounds too much like that.
01:38:26 --> 01:38:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where you maybe lose their sympathy.
01:38:28 --> 01:38:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Thick and Williams, NTI, preemptively sued Marvin Gay for declaratory relief, apparently, which is what it's called, which is like, stop saying this.
01:38:38 --> 01:38:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Just in case you sue us, we're blocking that.
01:38:40 --> 01:38:40 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
01:38:40 --> 01:38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they had apparently been claiming it was a rip off, a preemptive strike, essentially.
01:38:44 --> 01:38:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Backfired, Gaze family won, and they won $5.3 million dollars.
01:38:49 --> 01:38:50 [SPEAKER_07]: That's a lot of money.
01:38:50 --> 01:38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So, my problem with this is, what did they plagiarize here, the style?
01:38:57 --> 01:38:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:38:58 --> 01:38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: A groove.
01:38:58 --> 01:39:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a cowbell or a woodbop.
01:39:00 --> 01:39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a clamping in the back.
01:39:02 --> 01:39:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He sings in Fall Setto.
01:39:04 --> 01:39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: In the court case, they try to say like the melody is similar to the melody is not similar to lyrics or not similar.
01:39:08 --> 01:39:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's Fall Setto vocal with some low-call-and-response to it.
01:39:12 --> 01:39:17 [SPEAKER_01]: This is trying to copyright a genre and think back to that thing that you rolled your eyes when I brought it up.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:33 [SPEAKER_01]: The Steve Collins article in the jam AC that like copyrights supposed to try to get people to write art and create it for culture and like look Robin thick might be a douchey guy, but what we don't want is a chilling effect.
01:39:32 --> 01:39:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Where I hear, okay, if I'm going to name a song after Taylor song or homage her very literally, I have to pay.
01:39:39 --> 01:39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, what if you just like invisible string I mentioned is my favorite song folklore.
01:39:44 --> 01:39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And it has that the rubber bridge guitar and a really cool kind of clap to it or snap to it.
01:39:50 --> 01:39:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And what if I just try to create that vibe?
01:39:52 --> 01:40:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I owe her money or designer money like that and you and I disagree a little bit on this, but I think for me,
01:40:01 --> 01:40:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And people wrote about this as bad precedent for music creation.
01:40:05 --> 01:40:11 [SPEAKER_07]: I can respect that, and I also need to check my own bias here.
01:40:11 --> 01:40:17 [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that that's what's happening is if when you give me the Taylor Swift example, I'm like, no, of course, that's okay.
01:40:17 --> 01:40:18 [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, that's okay.
01:40:18 --> 01:40:43 [SPEAKER_07]: oasis of course that's okay but this song this is something about the song well i think that that's just my biacy and i'll i'll check myself and realize okay when you look at it objectively and not subjectively as i have been i see your points and i can see i can see because i think that it is my bias getting in the way look i wasn't there in the court sadly lawyers lawyers i want to be there i really
01:40:43 --> 01:40:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But not on the jury because they would never let me on this jury.
01:40:45 --> 01:40:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He could get gig.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So I shouldn't say for sure, but this one scares me a little bit, right?
01:40:50 --> 01:40:51 [SPEAKER_07]: I can understand why.
01:40:51 --> 01:40:57 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the one where I feel like, let's put in like, I think they probably did hear it, and maybe it is.
01:40:57 --> 01:41:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of similar, but also that's just a chord that curriculum.
01:41:00 --> 01:41:04 [SPEAKER_01]: or progression that's been in the air for hundreds of years, who cares, surfing USA, they took care of it.
01:41:04 --> 01:41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Brian Wilson is a 19 year old or whatever would have even known to get permission in the first place when they noticed it, they doubted it.
01:41:11 --> 01:41:14 [SPEAKER_07]: But Robin, they can for all, they knew what was going on.
01:41:14 --> 01:41:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But they thought it was fine because it's just a vibe.
01:41:18 --> 01:41:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they had the conversation before they even released it.
01:41:22 --> 01:41:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, are we gonna had your legal team consult?
01:41:25 --> 01:41:29 [SPEAKER_01]: This is like me with the muse knockoff in my pop musical.
01:41:30 --> 01:41:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what do you mean?
01:41:30 --> 01:41:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I did it on purpose.
01:41:31 --> 01:41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I like listening to muse.
01:41:33 --> 01:41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just the distorted base going in octaves on a shelf of rhythm.
01:41:37 --> 01:41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I did.
01:41:37 --> 01:41:39 [SPEAKER_07]: It's pretty much the same thing.
01:41:39 --> 01:41:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm surprised that muse hasn't come at you with a lawsuit.
01:41:43 --> 01:41:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Not famous enough.
01:41:44 --> 01:41:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But they wouldn't.
01:41:45 --> 01:41:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Matt Bellamy or whatever would not.
01:41:47 --> 01:41:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be 50 years from now, he passes and his estate.
01:41:52 --> 01:42:02 [SPEAKER_07]: find the VHS version of the Demo zip disk.
01:42:02 --> 01:42:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, no, it's not that long.
01:42:04 --> 01:42:05 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, anything.
01:42:05 --> 01:42:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Or do we just end there?
01:42:07 --> 01:42:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we could just end there.
01:42:08 --> 01:42:13 [SPEAKER_07]: I like an encrustable joke, but I don't know if you're going to cut out any of the encrustable things.
01:42:13 --> 01:42:16 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to leave the encrustable.
01:42:16 --> 01:42:22 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just really eager to eat my encrustable and I'm wondering if an encrustable is an interpolation of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
01:42:22 --> 01:42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: or is it a cover?
01:42:23 --> 01:42:26 [SPEAKER_07]: As a cover, it's an homage for sure.
01:42:26 --> 01:42:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.
01:42:27 --> 01:42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
01:42:28 --> 01:42:30 [SPEAKER_07]: It's definitely not fair, isn't it, original?
01:42:31 --> 01:42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you think I've never had one.
01:42:33 --> 01:42:34 [SPEAKER_07]: I have an extra on for you.
01:42:35 --> 01:42:35 [SPEAKER_07]: I have one.
01:42:35 --> 01:42:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Time to break.
01:42:37 --> 01:42:42 [SPEAKER_07]: And a peanut butter and jelly inspired the incredible to make a better version of itself.
01:42:43 --> 01:42:46 [SPEAKER_07]: So that goes to your point of like how we're not deflating artists.
01:42:46 --> 01:42:52 [SPEAKER_07]: We want to encourage people being creative and copyright limits creativity.
01:42:53 --> 01:42:56 [SPEAKER_07]: Like imagine if the peanut butter and jelly sandwich was copyrighting.
01:42:56 --> 01:42:58 [SPEAKER_07]: We'd never have uncrustables.
01:42:58 --> 01:43:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, more patented would be the one.
01:43:00 --> 01:43:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But let's not get into that.
01:43:09 --> 01:43:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Never mind when music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and hosted and produced by Mark Poppinny.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:21 [SPEAKER_07]: You can email us at nevermusicquaditkmail.com and give us a follow on social media.
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01:43:31 --> 01:43:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for listening.