When should a song be not too hard, and not too soft? This week, Mark and Nichole enjoy all the Philly steaks they can eat with Boyz II Men’s iconic 1991 jam “Motownphilly.” After looking at Motown’s role in pop culture of the 1990s, the hosts do a deep dive on a classic example of the verse-chorus form… maybe. Also, tune in for some top tier Stephanie Tanner-related content!
Other music heard in this episode: Josef Haydn - String Quartet in Eb Major, op. 33, No. 2, Hob. III:38, IV, “The Joke” (Doric String Quartet), Boyz II Men - “End of the Road”, Boyz II Men - “Water Runs Dry”, Boyz II Men - “Thank You”, Boyz II Men - “Sympin’”, Keith Sweat - “I Want Her”, Guy - “Don’t Clap… Just Dance”, Paula Abdul - “Opposites Attract (feat. The Wild Pair)”, Bell Biv DeVoe - “Poison”, Carter Family - “Keep On the Sunny Side”, Big Joe Turner - “Shake, Rattle and Roll”, Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men - “One Sweet Day”, Boyz II Men - “Jezebel”, En Vogue - “My Lovin’ (You’re Never Gonna Get It)
The final analysis, for your reference:
- Option 1: A B C D B E C’ D B A’ E’ F B A’’
- Option 2: Intro, Chorus 1, Verse 1, Pre-Chorus 1, Chorus 2, Rap 1, Verse 2, Pre-Chorus 2, Chorus 3, Re-Intro, Rap 2, Scat, Chorus 4, Outro
- Option 3: (Intro), Refrain, Episode 1, Refrain, Episode 2, Refrain, Episode 3, Refrain, (Outro)
Send us your thoughts at NeverMusicPod@gmail.com
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00:00 --> 00:01 [SPEAKER_09]: You remember that video, right?
00:01 --> 00:02 [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, that cat was amazing.
00:02 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_09]: And she's Cat Cat.
00:03 --> 00:04 [SPEAKER_10]: Imagine.
00:04 --> 00:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Which is some guy who's visitors embody by a cartoon cat with Paul Abduel, of course.
00:09 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_10]: I wonder why, like, did he just feel like insecure about being in the video?
00:14 --> 00:16 [SPEAKER_10]: Or they were like, we're going to make you a cat and he was like, yes.
00:17 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_09]: What if he's actually a cat?
00:18 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_10]: What if he's actually a cat?
00:20 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_09]: What if it's like a millivanily sort of thing where they have a cat doing the vocals, but they can't show a real cat on a video.
00:28 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_09]: So they have to do a animated cat.
00:29 --> 00:30 [SPEAKER_09]: So people think it's just a dick.
00:30 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: This video was like revolutionary.
00:33 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_09]: I loved it.
00:44 --> 00:46 [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, I'm Nicole, and I'm Mark.
00:46 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_10]: And this is never mind the music.
00:48 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_10]: What are we gonna talk about today, Mark?
00:50 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_09]: I know who we're gonna talk about.
00:52 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_09]: I know it's song, but what I don't know is how to start.
00:55 --> 00:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh.
00:56 --> 00:58 [SPEAKER_09]: I sometimes start with a little bit.
00:58 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, you have like a witty quips.
01:00 --> 01:01 [SPEAKER_09]: I like a little witty quips.
01:01 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_09]: I like starting with anecdotes, especially in season two, when I have a little more brain-spaced prep.
01:07 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_09]: But I feel like we've already exhausted the boys to men small-talk.
01:12 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_10]: I have like a little bit of voice to men's small talk relevant to this song.
01:16 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
01:16 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_09]: What will absolutely come save me because it's just a witty just a month ago.
01:22 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
01:22 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_09]: So we talked about voice to men with with Matt P on our metallic episode.
01:29 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_09]: We talked about, you know, in our era's playlist, we talked a little bit about boys to men there.
01:34 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_09]: Like season one, we talked about how God, some episode, you asked me, what are the first three CDs you bought and like which ones define you for me?
01:44 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_09]: It was boys to men too, like we've covered this.
01:47 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_09]: And now we are doing, it's finally, we've arrived.
01:50 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_10]: We're doing, we've arrived at the boys to men on the phone.
01:52 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Boys to men, episode, but what's the small talk?
01:57 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_10]: So when I hear the song we're about to talk about, I think of Stephanie Tanner, do you know who Stephanie Tanner is?
02:06 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_09]: How rude that you don't think I know.
02:09 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_09]: That's not the one.
02:10 --> 02:11 [SPEAKER_09]: That's not how rude.
02:11 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_09]: How rude is the little one?
02:13 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_09]: What is her catchphrase?
02:14 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_09]: Just hang on.
02:14 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_09]: I've got it.
02:15 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_10]: Oh my god, well that's the whole point Mark.
02:16 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_10]: She doesn't have a catchphrase because she's the awkward middle child that never got any attention.
02:21 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_09]: She totally is how rude.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_10]: She isn't.
02:24 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_10]: That's Michelle Tanner.
02:26 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_10]: The Olson twins.
02:27 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_10]: How rude.
02:28 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_10]: How rude.
02:29 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_10]: Right?
02:29 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_09]: I really think.
02:31 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_09]: How rude.
02:32 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Dude.
02:32 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think it's both of you.
02:33 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_09]: If I be you on this, if I'm right on this, oh my god, you're never going to do with the onirous.
02:38 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I hate these edits that you may
02:41 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you mean fact checking shit.
02:43 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let me just let me say what I want to say, buddy.
02:46 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_09]: You're like, okay.
02:47 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I right?
02:48 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_10]: Full House.
02:49 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_10]: How rude.
02:50 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_10]: How rude.
02:51 --> 02:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Then what does Michelle Tanner say?
02:52 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
03:01 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_09]: It's a whole YouTube video of a minute of just how rude after how rude of Stephanie Tanner.
03:09 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_10]: Then what is Michelle Tanner's catchphrase?
03:13 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's rude that you don't know.
03:15 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_09]: Hang on, I'm looking at that.
03:17 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm rude that you're fact checking me.
03:19 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_10]: Just let me wait, I'm not fact checking you.
03:22 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_09]: I said how rude and you corrected me.
03:24 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_09]: How is that me?
03:25 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_09]: How rude Michelle.
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_09]: I guess.
03:27 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_09]: Catch phrase.
03:29 --> 03:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Totally.
03:29 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_09]: I was I had a man Michelle.
03:31 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_09]: You got it.
03:31 --> 03:42 [SPEAKER_09]: Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude
03:42 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't really identify as much with DJ because she was too old, and I didn't identify much with the Olson twins with Michelle because they were younger, right?
03:51 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not a middle child, but I sort of like Stephanie was the one that I thought was a cool character.
03:56 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_10]: You have real like Kim and Gibbler energy.
03:57 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you.
04:01 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
04:02 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_09]: What does this have to do with Motown?
04:03 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
04:03 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_09]: We're talking about Motown, Philly, by the way, everybody.
04:22 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_10]: When I hear that song, I see Stephanie Tanner at a dance recital, the whole episode's about her taking on too much and she wants to be like the best dancer and she's taking like a hip-hop class, a ballet class, a tap class and she's just really like throwing everything at the wall here trying to be the best dancer.
04:42 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_10]: and she freaks out like really freaks out just overwhelmed and at the recital she's dancing hip-hop to Motown Filly and she's like freaks out and starts doing like ballet instead and I think she's doing it to like very postmodern very postmodern but she's not doing it in that way she's doing it in a way to signal to her parents that she's stressed and overwhelmed so they like don't make her dance anymore.
05:07 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_10]: I think she likes self-sabotages
05:11 --> 05:19 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't remember this, which is wild because I watched full house all the time, and this was like my favorite group when I was fourth grade, fifth grade.
05:19 --> 05:21 [SPEAKER_10]: It's actually in the venn diagram of your interests.
05:21 --> 05:22 [SPEAKER_10]: This would have been right in the middle.
05:22 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_09]: But not of my memory.
05:24 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, very interesting.
05:25 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_09]: But I, but yet I remember how rude.
05:28 --> 05:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Did DJ really didn't have a catchphrase, probably.
05:32 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_10]: Poor DJ.
05:33 --> 05:35 [SPEAKER_10]: She had an eldest daughter, but I'm for sure.
05:35 --> 05:36 [SPEAKER_09]: A lot of pressure on her.
05:36 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_10]: She would probably run the family with three father figures that were, yeah, so many Taylor Swift forever.
05:42 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_09]: They were each a part of a whole person.
05:45 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_10]: They were, and that was like the whole point, but like, what do we do in Joey?
05:50 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, how are you helping?
05:50 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like living in the Alcove.
05:52 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_01]: He's got puppets.
05:55 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, I remember like, what either would.
05:57 --> 05:58 [SPEAKER_01]: There was definitely a puppet.
05:59 --> 06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a wood chuck would chuck.
06:01 --> 06:02 [SPEAKER_09]: It was a wood chuck, right, or something.
06:02 --> 06:03 [SPEAKER_09]: A groundhog, something like that.
06:03 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_09]: What's it for?
06:04 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_09]: A hum.
06:05 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And he would.
06:06 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That was just crazy.
06:07 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_09]: So the listeners know we are exannials, just like, just like, Stephanie Tanner.
06:13 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_09]: So we're going to talk about full house and boys to men at any.
06:16 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_09]: But look, if you're tuning into this episode, you knew who's Stephanie Tanner was before we anybody said word, full house, right?
06:26 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, that's Joey, right?
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Joey, okay, watch the hair is Jesse.
06:31 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Do they all have catch phrases?
06:33 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_09]: I bet Danny doesn't.
06:34 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_10]: Danny.
06:35 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_10]: It's so funny too with Danny because he was so clean cut in the show, but Bob's I give stand up is like so funny.
06:40 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Don't hurt anybody.
06:41 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that is funny.
06:42 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, guys, so this song, Motown Thilly, first single from 1991's Kooley High Harmony, which was an album I had on cassette.
06:52 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_09]: You probably had, no?
06:54 --> 06:56 [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think I had it on cassette.
06:57 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, you don't see D-D-D-D. My first CD was Boistement 2.
07:01 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't have a CD player until middle school.
07:04 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_09]: So, what do I want to talk about today?
07:06 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, first of all, fast forward until later in the episode, this song maybe has a lot in common with this string quartet by Joseph Hayden.
07:15 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
07:27 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_09]: Obviously, I mean it's the first thing I think of right sure.
07:30 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_09]: So this song hit number three first single from the album produced by Dallas Austin Who is very much wrapped up in the new jack swing movement which we can talk about in a little bit Anybody listening to this podcast knows that I'm a voice-to-man fan, but I think I like voice-to-man incorrectly.
07:45 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay
07:46 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_09]: And I think you may be like the more correctly than me.
07:50 --> 07:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Obviously.
07:50 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Because I think I like the stuff that other people don't like as much.
07:55 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_09]: And that includes voice to men themselves.
07:59 --> 07:59 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
07:59 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_09]: So I feel like voice to men is best known for their balance.
08:04 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_09]: This is James, right?
08:05 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_09]: So something like this end of the road.
08:29 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_10]: It's a very good song.
08:30 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_09]: It is a good song and people love it.
08:32 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_09]: People love, I'll make love to you.
08:34 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_09]: People love.
08:35 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_09]: One sweet day with Mariah with people love him.
08:38 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_09]: It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday.
08:40 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_09]: Feel sort of different because it's a capella.
08:43 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_09]: But still, it's the slow ballads, the love songs, not love songs, but like the, the.
08:48 --> 08:51 [SPEAKER_10]: The swoonie swoonie style.
08:51 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_10]: You just want them to sweep you up and there's sweater vests and like carry away.
08:54 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_09]: That's right.
08:55 --> 08:59 [SPEAKER_09]: And that I think was what they were the most into, too.
08:59 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_09]: And that's what they kept doing.
09:00 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_09]: These first couple albums have a couple like bouncy, dancey, kind of fun tracks like Motown Filly.
09:06 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_09]: And that's what I was drawn to, but boys to men and the rest of humanity appeared more drawn to the end of the road stuff.
09:14 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_09]: So going forward, this is an album by then I had already mostly fallen off on my fandom.
09:21 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_09]: But this is four seasons of loneliness from evolution, 1997,
09:28 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I love that song because it has the one that doesn't usually sing all the time as like the lewd singer, which guy is that singer?
09:54 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Sean Stockman.
09:55 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, he's like the high guy that isn't the belty high guy.
09:59 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_09]: So like Wanya's the super emotionally plaintiff He's the more false set of week.
10:03 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's always kind of there, but this time after years They're like, this is your shot.
10:07 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, he's got leads on some of the guys who didn't get many leads is Mike the base Right, but well, he's talking the coolest right, so I just pitch shift my voice down
10:17 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_09]: though that one's a little art poppy and I do like the ones that are like water runs dry as a little more when I was prepping for this episode it made me think of seal which we did a couple months back there you get that face
10:44 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_10]: You could really hear him to make some noise to men, we don't say it enough.
10:49 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_09]: It's only half the episodes.
10:51 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_09]: And we have mentioned in previous episodes, there are no longer a quartet.
10:54 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_10]: No.
10:55 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Who just knows?
10:56 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Mike.
10:56 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
10:57 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_10]: What happened to him?
10:58 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_09]: In one of the season one episodes, we talked about how they have a this is pop episode.
11:02 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_09]: It gets into it a little bit, but not much.
11:04 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
11:04 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_09]: He was having health issues, but also some conflicts.
11:09 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_09]: I think because of that, like he wasn't pulling his weight because of his health.
11:15 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Like something, I think he has back problems.
11:18 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_09]: And so they don't have the low base anymore and they didn't replace him with like the guy from rock up hell or whatever They don't rock up hell or that Tim Tim storms is it from the member the guy I play with the super low Like the world record right?
11:33 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Low voice but like didn't sound like singing but like maybe yeah, yeah, so get him in there
11:38 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_09]: Whatever, I've always been into the danceier stuff, which we can say at the beginning would have been called New Jack Swing.
11:47 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_09]: I'll give some examples of that for folks that don't know, but Motown Filly, the song that was Matt P's favorite song in the car that he was favorite to say, which is under pressure.
11:58 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you from the second record.
12:00 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_17]: It's a little still, a little New Jack Swingy.
12:24 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_09]: It's really good.
12:25 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Why don't people like that?
12:26 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Why?
12:27 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, people like it.
12:29 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_09]: But not, like, I don't know.
12:31 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm just a sucker.
12:31 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_09]: That first album, this isn't, song called Simpin.
12:33 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_09]: This is on the record with Motan Filly.
12:35 --> 12:36 [SPEAKER_09]: It's just so good.
12:54 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_10]: What has simp been mean?
12:55 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_10]: What is that?
12:56 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_10]: The kids say it now too, simp.
12:58 --> 13:00 [SPEAKER_09]: I think the kids said it in 1991.
13:00 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's a different thing.
13:03 --> 13:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Simp now.
13:05 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_09]: is S-I-M-P, this is S-Y, and they don't mean the same thing.
13:10 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_10]: What do they mean?
13:11 --> 13:19 [SPEAKER_09]: This would, this is a gross term you're not going to like, but a guy who's been friend-zoned and who, like, showers a bunch of, like, affection on a woman who doesn't like them back.
13:19 --> 13:25 [SPEAKER_09]: That's the modern simp, simp back then is something very different, I think.
13:25 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, I know's it.
13:26 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Tell me.
13:26 --> 13:36 [SPEAKER_10]: Simp and Boistman likely refers to the idea of young man maturing, with simping meaning to be overly devoted or submissive in romance.
13:36 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_10]: So it's this might be where the phrase simping was coined.
13:41 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Baby, let me tell you how I feel the urges season me controlling it's unreal.
13:45 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_09]: Obbedia, I want to let you know you got me urine and so baby, let me show you who I want you, baby.
13:49 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_09]: Got to know what I need you see you here with me this ain't the right way.
13:53 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_09]: Got to find another way to earn your love.
13:54 --> 13:58 [SPEAKER_09]: Just give me a clue because you know, send me an easy get on your hands and knees and lift your eyebrows.
13:59 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_09]: Simple and easy and if you want to get it and you got to be willing, cry and bagging pleading on your knees.
14:03 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I think it was, but I think that like it is.
14:06 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it is the same thing.
14:07 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_09]: I just assumed it was different.
14:08 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Anyways.
14:09 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_09]: Anyways.
14:10 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_09]: So.
14:10 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_09]: Where?
14:11 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Where are we?
14:13 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_09]: So Motown Philly hit number three.
14:15 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_09]: So it was a relatively big hit, of course.
14:17 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_09]: But all their other mega hits are all the slow ballads.
14:23 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_09]: And I think maybe I just loved New Jack swing.
14:27 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_09]: What do you think of New Jack swing?
14:28 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Do you know that term?
14:29 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_10]: Never labeled this music as New Jack swing, but every time you apply that term to bands, I always, I always like the music, so maybe I like New Jack swing.
14:40 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_10]: So what else is under New Jack swing?
14:42 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_09]: This would be kind of late in the life cycle when it was on all top 40 styles, right?
14:49 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_09]: So it would have existed in mostly the late 80s more in R&B context that were like hits, but not number one on the soft pop or billboard top 40 kind of charts.
15:02 --> 15:03 [SPEAKER_09]: So like,
15:03 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Think sort of hip hop influenced R&B so Dallas Austin was one of the producers known for this but producers like Teddy Riley are the ones that sort of pioneered this style.
15:16 --> 15:17 [SPEAKER_09]: So here's Keith Sweat.
15:17 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Have you heard Keith Sweat?
15:18 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_07]: This is I want her.
15:31 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_09]: That's 87.
15:32 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_09]: This is from 88.
15:33 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_09]: This is Teddy Riley's group.
15:35 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_09]: Guy.
15:35 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_09]: Don't clap.
15:36 --> 15:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Just dance.
15:57 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_09]: So eventually it does cross over there, right?
15:59 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_09]: And this is probably the first intersection I had.
16:04 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_17]: 1988.
16:23 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_09]: Remember that video, right?
16:25 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that cat was amazing.
16:26 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And she's Cat Cat.
16:27 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine.
16:28 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_09]: Which is some guy who's visages embodied by a cartoon cat with Paul Abdull, of course.
16:33 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_10]: I wonder why, like, did he just feel like insecure about being in the video?
16:38 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_10]: Or they were like, we're going to make you a cat and he was like, yes.
16:41 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_09]: What if he's actually a cat?
16:42 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: What if he's actually a cat?
16:44 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_09]: What if it's like a millivinilly sort of thing where they have a cat doing the vocals, but they can't show a real cat on a video.
16:51 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_09]: So they have to do a animated cat so people think it's just a dick.
16:54 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_01]: This video was like revolutionary.
16:56 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I loved it.
16:57 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But how did they do it?
16:59 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: How did they do it?
17:00 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, this is probably right before who framed Roger Rabbit, which was magic.
17:05 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all good.
17:06 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_09]: And so, of course, I think most people's reference point to sort of the pop side of this would be Bell-Biv de Vaux 1990 poison.
17:20 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_09]: That's all we need to play.
17:21 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_10]: That's all you need.
17:22 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_10]: And it's like they kind of all sound the same, but I like it.
17:25 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, though.
17:26 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_09]: What you're hearing, it's the drum sound, right?
17:28 --> 17:30 [SPEAKER_09]: And here's Motown Philly, the way it opens.
17:33 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_09]: it's a certain kind of sample snare that's crazy loud and that's the vibe like when you hear something like finesse by Bruno Mars from a few years back, it's got that snare sound and so it sounds like poison, right?
17:46 --> 17:47 [SPEAKER_09]: That's New Jack swing.
17:47 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_09]: So one of the members of BBD is Michael Bivins.
17:50 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_09]: He's the guy who discovered boys to men and he's the rapper on Motown Philly, right?
17:54 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_09]: So he's got like a guest spot.
17:55 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_09]: He's sort of to them would have been, I guess, an elder statesman because he was
18:03 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_09]: I hope not, but definitely, because new addition, some of their music is, I didn't pull up any clips, but new addition, which was the boy band Michael Bivins was in, some of their tunes were very new Jack Swinging, but apparently, I, young Mark just loved this style.
18:22 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_09]: But folks, check out that Netflix series, this is pop literally the first episode is a cool is a deep dive.
18:27 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_09]: And so check it out.
18:29 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_09]: Boys to men are pretty cool.
18:30 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_09]: And the sort of rise of them and then other groups that weren't them getting to stick around on the pop charts longer by kind of maybe in their style.
18:38 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Because they were successful.
18:40 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_09]: But by the time the, you know, in sync and all those guys were around, they were crowded out, essentially.
18:46 --> 18:51 [SPEAKER_10]: But like in sync,
18:52 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_10]: with Nikolay, whatever.
18:55 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_09]: You were absolutely asking the wrong guy.
18:56 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_10]: Right, right.
18:57 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_10]: But that none of that exists with the old boys to man, like boys men were like the folks.
19:02 --> 19:05 [SPEAKER_09]: 100% on our last male bag.
19:05 --> 19:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Someone said, hey, y'all should talk about appropriation one of these days.
19:08 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, definitely.
19:09 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_09]: Because that's a great example of the white boy bands doing boys to men's stick and kind of getting maybe more successful.
19:18 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_09]: Anyways,
19:19 --> 19:22 [SPEAKER_09]: A few episodes ago, I think it might be the high map episode.
19:22 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_09]: You said, Mark, we need to talk about form.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I wanted to.
19:26 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_10]: And you were like, we can't.
19:27 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_10]: Because of copyright, and that was like, okay, but I was really sad about it.
19:30 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And that was really recently.
19:31 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_09]: And this is one of the episodes where I decided I wanted to do a Motown Filly episode because I wanted to do that song, not because I had a topic.
19:41 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_09]: So I went, all right.
19:42 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_09]: Let's talk about form for this song, right?
19:44 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_09]: So we just did it, there were a few different directions I could have gone in with this tune, but it's a good one to like really deep dive into this.
19:51 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_09]: So what we have in this song is what we call a verse chorus form, but also there's some weird stuff in there that we'll come back to.
20:00 --> 20:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Before I get into this, because this is a whole thing, we are actually daring the copyright police, because I'm gonna play a fair amount of this song.
20:08 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_09]: And that I said in that episode, what makes form so hard is, what am I gonna do?
20:12 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Divide it up into a bunch of 15 second clips, and then how do we piece it together?
20:16 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_09]: We're gonna try, but we kind of got to listen to all the different sections of song.
20:20 --> 20:21 [SPEAKER_09]: I can't just play a couple clips.
20:21 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_10]: I actually think it would be good for the podcast to have like a copyright lawsuit put against us.
20:28 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_10]: Because I don't like being the news.
20:29 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, good for our notoriety.
20:31 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Are you kidding?
20:31 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
20:32 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_10]: And anytime someone's saying our name, it's a good thing.
20:34 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_09]: Totally.
20:35 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_10]: So no bad press.
20:36 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, just get a couple more mortgages to pay off the legal fees and stuff.
20:40 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_09]: It's fine.
20:41 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_10]: I bet you we could get free legal representation.
20:43 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
20:43 --> 20:45 [SPEAKER_10]: And we'll go to the lower house.
20:45 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_09]: We'll end up with what 40, 50 bucks a month and add revenue if by our increases.
20:50 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm mad, too.
20:50 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_09]: Could you think, how worth it?
20:52 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_09]: That would be it.
20:53 --> 20:53 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
21:14 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_09]: So, before I get into it, what do you want to talk about with boys to men today?
21:20 --> 21:29 [SPEAKER_10]: I want to talk about cultural identity and how, and it actually maps to what you're going to talk about too, so I'm proud of us.
21:29 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_10]: But I want to talk about how,
21:32 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_10]: these boys as they were becoming men like had a certain path that was laid out in front of them and they kind of chose a different path.
21:42 --> 21:51 [SPEAKER_10]: Like growing up in Philly, there's a certain set of expectations, I'm sure, for a young black man to be a certain way and maybe that doesn't involve like a sweater vest to knock a pillow singing.
21:52 --> 21:58 [SPEAKER_10]: So I want to talk about how they kind of broke the form of their like cultural destiny.
21:58 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_10]: and tapped into our collective memory about Motown to appear nostalgic in timeless.
22:05 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_09]: So I think if you think of a contemporary to say nothing of the couple years later, the boy bands that kind of took the mantle from them, but like, jodacy being contemporary to them, but being all sexy.
22:18 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_09]: Like those guys were shirtless and super-abbed up and stuff like that.
22:23 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_09]: And boys to men went with the sweater vest kind of, we're gonna be clean cut and I think.
22:30 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_09]: It was a commercial play to make it to top 40 radio, right?
22:35 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_10]: It'd be like really wholesome, almost in safe and also rely on their vocal chops more than their abs, which I think it's, well, abs, abs work.
22:44 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Like you might as well train to be as good a singer as those guys for the amount of time it takes to get those abs, right?
22:50 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, let's talk about that and then we'll come back to the fourth.
22:53 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, cool.
22:53 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, what do you got?
22:54 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_10]: So I was thinking about this idea of
22:57 --> 23:04 [SPEAKER_10]: cultural legacy and intergenerational identity and like collective memory about motown music.
23:04 --> 23:12 [SPEAKER_10]: So when you think of motown filly, motown music, what are some schemas you have about this idea of motown?
23:12 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_09]: This, it's interesting, right, because this is the name Motown Philly, like they're calling location out immediately, right, because Motown is associated obviously with Motown, Motor City, right, Detroit, right, and this is the, what do they say in the first line of the song, the East Coast family, boys to men, ABC, BB, right, and that's, I don't remember what towns, although I think.
23:37 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_09]: ABC might be from Atlanta or something like that, but boys to men's Philadelphia, they're calling to mine a location, which is different from what Motown generally calls to mine.
23:45 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_09]: So when I think Motown, I think girl groups and, you know, supreme or whatever, young solo artists, you know, Stevie Wonder or like, yeah, I mean, temptations, that vibe, but it's also all wrapped up and also something like Marvin Gaye taking or Stevie Wonder taking control of their music and the struggle of that.
24:05 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_09]: When I think Motown, I think a well-oiled machine, right?
24:08 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_09]: I think Barry Gordy and his troops of songwriters and the artists are sort of lower on the totem pole than they would normally be in a lot of sort of star making setups.
24:21 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_09]: The artists were grown, you know, they were tongue etiquette, the women were taught to essentially appeal to a white audience through really like proper.
24:29 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is the legacy of Motown going back to the 60s that then had climbing on a way and had a little bit of a revival with boys to men and some of these other groups with the new Jack swing.
24:40 --> 24:43 [SPEAKER_10]: As I see a lot of similarities to what you just called out to voice to men.
24:43 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_10]: The fact that they are, yeah, just minimally a group, right?
24:48 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_10]: A group of folks that are kind of costumed in a way, like the Supreme to the temptations, also kind of sterilized to appeal to a wider audience for marketing, well marketed, well-branded.
25:02 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_10]: Um, really clean cut in their imagery and that is what also really good, but also very talented.
25:08 --> 25:09 [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, for sure.
25:09 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_10]: And I think when we move ahead in music history and we look at some of the other boy bands like the abs one new reference.
25:17 --> 25:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Joe to see.
25:18 --> 25:18 [SPEAKER_10]: Joe to see.
25:18 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_10]: Sorry.
25:19 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's going to be about the same time.
25:22 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
25:23 --> 25:25 [SPEAKER_10]: But it still doesn't have that same level of polish.
25:25 --> 25:28 [SPEAKER_10]: I think that boy's German has, and maybe that's why boy's German has a much staying power.
25:29 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_10]: But cultural psychologists say that music is kind of like a memory container, like a place that we keep all of these schemas attached to.
25:37 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_10]: like certain brands of music.
25:40 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that in this song, voice to men is calling back are like collective memories about Motown, even though it's a motor city reference for sure, to evoke a certain sense of nostalgia to get us like buy into their whole vibe.
25:53 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_10]: And I just think that that's a really interesting tactic even if it wasn't obtuse like if they didn't intend it to be that way it's an interesting thing that's happening as soon as you hear Motown I think of like wholesome and I think of accessible and talent in music and I also feel like that's a voice to men is another thing I was thinking about with this song.
26:14 --> 26:32 [SPEAKER_10]: is creating their own narrative and creating a whole narrative identity through the song but what they're all about and kind of introducing the audience to who they are as a band that might be different than your interpretations of who a group of for black men together might be.
26:32 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_10]: At this time, like in the late 90s it was like a different, they broke a lot of stereotypes,
26:40 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_10]: In a way that I think is really interesting and really broke the form of what a lot of cultural stereotype for.
26:45 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_10]: For people that weren't from Philadelphia or weren't from the East Coast, the people in other parts of the country may not have seen a group of black men acting this way, and that might have been good for mindsets overall.
26:58 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_09]: Does that make sense I'm trying like I think so like I feel like you're tiptoeing around things too a little bit like I think you're right though They're they're they're trying to go against I mean this is early 1990s we're still in Bush one era Like we're still sort of in the Reagan era which had a lot of consequences to the way people viewed cities And urban youth in general.
27:21 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_09]: I would say and specifically black man
27:28 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_09]: same era right so that stuff's all there and this is trying to cut against that in the way that Motown had made their sort of cuz Motown original generation Motown was during the civil rights era same thing let's try to sort of
27:45 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_09]: sidestepping almost ignore all that kind of stuff and it's funny because if you think of the these co's family, the three groups, the the one that's more rapy is ABC and they're literally a little kid.
27:59 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
27:59 --> 28:03 [SPEAKER_09]: Whereas Bellbiv Devot has a little more, we're grown.
28:03 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, there's like more sexuality in there, but they're singers, right?
28:08 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, they were some rapping, but it's a little different.
28:10 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Like
28:12 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_09]: calculated to go against the sort of stereotypes.
28:16 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm just trying to think, this is like a biography song on some level, right?
28:21 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_10]: Let me, let me, let me put this event like going against certain cultural stereotypes and and I'll be more on the nose with it and how Motown did kind of white wash black artists to make them more accessible to a white audience.
28:35 --> 28:40 [SPEAKER_10]: It's felt sanitized for us in a way that countered the civil rights movement.
28:40 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_10]: I will pause it, that boy Superman was doing the same thing in the face of Rodding King.
28:45 --> 28:48 [SPEAKER_10]: In the face of like two-poock, I mean, two-poock was murdered in 96.
28:48 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_10]: And boy, Superman was still doing their thing in 96, right?
28:51 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Sure.
28:52 --> 28:55 [SPEAKER_09]: That's probably around the Mariah Carey collab, right?
28:55 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_10]: So imagine that all on the radio at the same time and all on the news cycle at the same time that you're seeing these, quote, gangster wrappers.
29:03 --> 29:11 [SPEAKER_10]: against voice to men and their sweater vests and their love ballads and their collaborations with Mariah Carey.
29:11 --> 29:20 [SPEAKER_10]: And this idea came up in the Mariah Carey episode when we and when we talked to Breeze as well, this idea of like cross culture collaborations and how that mattered so much at the time.
29:20 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_10]: And we're seeing that here too with voice to men being like really ground breaking in terms of how they are trying to reach across culture.
29:28 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, this is simultaneous to the chronic, essentially, right?
29:32 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_09]: And NWA had been a few years before that, where you said to Poc, he's rising, he's going to die in a few years, but that those two samplings of black American culture are happening at the same time.
29:46 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
29:46 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_09]: And so, and Motown's angle has always been more this, they weren't going to be death row records, right?
29:54 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_09]: They weren't going to do that.
29:55 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_09]: They weren't going to be an incubator for easy or whatever or ice cube, right?
30:00 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_09]: It could only be this, but it's interesting.
30:03 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_09]: In a period, and I can claim a degree of naivety about what was going on exactly with Motown in the 1980s, but my understanding is they were, they had suffered into decline a bit.
30:14 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_09]: Their mega artists had grown up and taken controller on music and in most cases had left.
30:19 --> 30:20 [SPEAKER_09]: the record label.
30:20 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_09]: I think Stevie Wonder stayed with them technically for a while, but he was no longer allowing the machine to do what they were doing when he was a young man.
30:27 --> 30:35 [SPEAKER_09]: By the time we got to inner visions and songs in the key of life, they were not putting Stevie Wonder through their choreography lessons and
30:35 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_09]: How to speak in publicly.
30:37 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_09]: No, he was his own artist and he was saying you're just going to, you know, cash in on, you're going to distribute this record.
30:42 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_09]: He was calling the shot.
30:44 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_09]: So they had lost their sort of specific way of assembly lining mainstream friendly music.
30:51 --> 31:08 [SPEAKER_09]: and had declined as a cultural force, but then with gangster rap and these other things coming up in this era, they rose again, if only briefly, which is really, and I'm not sure if at this point, the family, the Gordy family had sort of seeded control, because at one point, Motown got sold to a corporate entity.
31:08 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_09]: It was no longer a family.
31:09 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_09]: There was a point when it was the largest black owned family business in the country.
31:14 --> 31:15 [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
31:15 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_09]: which eventually they sold off to one of the major record labels and they became essentially subsidiary.
31:22 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't remember when it round that happens, but I think it's around this era, but it's an counterpoint almost against the rise of death row and things like that.
31:31 --> 31:37 [SPEAKER_10]: And it's also cool with Boistman, we put it in this cultural context.
31:37 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_10]: and talking about, like, intergenerational cultural identity.
31:40 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_10]: Because when they're coming up, you know, you would notice that Motown, like, you know, the supreme's and the temptations, they're not really around anymore.
31:49 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_09]: Sure.
31:50 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_10]: But the kids that are listening to voice to men, their parents probably listen to the supreme's and the temptations.
31:56 --> 31:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Totally.
31:56 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_10]: So they hear this on the radio and they're like, Oh, this is music.
31:59 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_09]: I can get behind my kid like they know the original version of it's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday or they do voice to men does in the still of the night or whatever.
32:08 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I know this song from when I was a kid.
32:09 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_10]: And it calls back to them a time that the civil rights movement was
32:15 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_10]: moving and they were looking for like kind of peace in that moment and now we're flash forwarding to Rodden King, to Tupac, to all of this other cultural stuff happening in their kids' lives and finding an nostalgic connection to this music through that lens.
32:30 --> 32:46 [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why voice demand I think stuck around for so long is because it appealed to such a wide audience on so many different sub-conscious levels that you might have not have made the connection to, but you just hear voice demand and you feel comforted by them, just like when you hear Motum, music you feel comforted by it.
32:47 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_10]: And that's going back to its response to the cultural movements of their time.
32:53 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
32:54 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_09]: But that's also what made it uncool for Matt P in car to admit that he was a fan.
32:59 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_10]: Because it wasn't edgy.
33:00 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_09]: It wasn't edgy at all.
33:01 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_09]: I design.
33:02 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_09]: And I just, I mean, folks like how much of the music do I bring in here that has like dope vocal harmonies and stuff.
33:07 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_09]: It was formative.
33:09 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
33:09 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_09]: And it's awesomeness to me as a kid, but wasn't edgy, right?
33:13 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_09]: So even by the time we get to one sweet day, which is like middle school, maybe for us, eighth grade, ninth grade or something like that, even if they had kept up with the like bouncy fun tunes like Motown Filly or thank you that I said, I loved.
33:27 --> 33:38 [SPEAKER_09]: I probably still would have fallen off because I was looking for punk and post-grunge and I was looking for more, or even the hip hop of that era that was more
33:38 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_09]: me as a high schooler couldn't accept the sort of whole some stuff anymore, which is, I mean, I even fell off of weird out until I was an adult, you know, like God.
33:48 --> 33:54 [SPEAKER_09]: And it's like everything that wasn't, I needed to like be a part of a counter culture sort of, right?
33:55 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_09]: And
33:55 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Boys to men weren't that right so that they could do a single with my carry that was probably the biggest song of that year so good, but it wasn't big in the youth culture in the same way that like a big two pox song was for me like California love probably around that same era and that was just everywhere for young people right yeah so.
34:18 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_10]: I love it.
34:19 --> 34:20 [SPEAKER_10]: I love it.
34:20 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's like cool to have all these connections through friendly music and cultural moments for sure.
34:25 --> 34:29 [SPEAKER_10]: So that's really all I got to share about voice and when I'm thinking.
34:29 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I mean, we talked about it about my four times.
34:33 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Did you go to, sorry to sidetrack before we even get into what I wanted to talk about?
34:38 --> 34:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Did you go to record stores a lot when we did?
34:40 --> 34:42 [SPEAKER_10]: We went to like tower records on Newbury Street Boston.
34:42 --> 34:47 [SPEAKER_09]: So I never went to tower tower was more like in the malls where I grew up.
34:47 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_09]: So there were more like local ones I would go to after this album came out.
34:51 --> 34:56 [SPEAKER_09]: I would like for the next year to periodically go to
34:55 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_09]: the warehouse in San Diego.
34:57 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_09]: That's what it was called.
34:58 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_09]: There's a local chain, I guess.
35:00 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_09]: And just ask the people.
35:02 --> 35:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Is there a new boy's to men album out?
35:05 --> 35:16 [SPEAKER_09]: My little piece size brain couldn't handle when end of the road came out, which was a single, which was on the soundtrack to Boomerang, which is a movie that we have to be on the scene, Eddie Murphy movie.
35:16 --> 35:20 [SPEAKER_09]: I was like, oh, there's a new boys to men album out, which there was not.
35:20 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_09]: And I would go, I probably would go one someone to this record store to look to see what the weird albums out were or whatever.
35:26 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_09]: And I would ask them and they would like, no, it's still coming.
35:29 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And like, my little brain couldn't go.
35:31 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_09]: What's the deal with this song to even be told?
35:34 --> 35:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, bro, that's just a single.
35:37 --> 35:38 [SPEAKER_09]: It's just on a soundtrack.
35:38 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_09]: The soundtracks right there.
35:39 --> 35:42 [SPEAKER_09]: You're just going to have 12 songs you don't know, and it'll have another one song.
35:43 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Or it was such a weird thing.
35:45 --> 35:49 [SPEAKER_09]: And then apparently later, that song got added to like deluxe editions of this album.
35:50 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_09]: It wasn't until I had already kind of moved on that the second album came out, and I had a CD player, and I just bought it when it came out, right?
35:57 --> 36:00 [SPEAKER_09]: It's such a weird little chapter of my life of
36:00 --> 36:06 [SPEAKER_09]: being a record-stored junkie like I would then be for sure in high school, but not understanding how to give a word.
36:06 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Not understanding that I should check the soundtracks that I should check the singles, but get a casino, and that album cycles were a thing that was like,
36:16 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_09]: No, dude, you got to wait like two or three years for the next record.
36:20 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_10]: At Tower records used to go and they'd have like listening stations that you could go and listen to albums before you bought them.
36:26 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, wow.
36:27 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_10]: Which is cool.
36:28 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Feels later, though.
36:29 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_09]: That was even back then.
36:30 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I don't know.
36:32 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_10]: I was in college.
36:33 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_10]: So maybe like put 2000s.
36:36 --> 36:36 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
36:36 --> 36:39 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is like, I'm talking early 90s, right?
36:39 --> 36:41 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like 10 years old at the record.
36:41 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you were like so quick.
36:43 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_09]: You could, in the era, you're talking about you could also look up online, probably.
36:47 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, but I did have it.
36:49 --> 36:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I know how to do stuff like that.
36:50 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not.
36:52 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_09]: You didn't walk onto your AOL account, but you borrowed from Angelo in your.
36:56 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
36:56 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_09]: On your cross-country team?
36:58 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_10]: No.
36:58 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_10]: No.
36:59 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't.
36:59 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_10]: We used to get the free A well CD's and sit in my friend Jessica's basement and chat with boys online and pretend we were 20 year-old girls when we were in middle school.
37:07 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I'm sure I did.
37:08 --> 37:10 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'm sure I did anything bad.
37:10 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
37:11 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
37:11 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_09]: A discriminative.
37:12 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_09]: Should we talk about form?
37:13 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, form, formative.
37:15 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
37:15 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_09]: So, eventually we are hurtling towards
37:20 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_09]: But we're not there yet.
37:22 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_09]: This song is essentially a very good example of what we call verse chorus form.
37:28 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Because sometimes it's called verse refrain, but I'm gonna not call it verse refrain because there's another thing that sometimes called refrain form that is a related, but let's not get into it.
37:37 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_10]: And like refrain, of course, this sounds like nerds.
37:40 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_10]: We're not nerds, you know.
37:42 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_09]: We are not nerds.
37:43 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_09]: That's true.
37:44 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Two facts, right?
37:45 --> 37:46 [SPEAKER_09]: We are very cool.
37:46 --> 37:52 [SPEAKER_09]: So, verse chorus you probably intuitively or even more than intuitively know what I mean when I say that, right?
37:52 --> 37:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
37:53 --> 37:53 [SPEAKER_09]: We got a verse.
37:54 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_10]: Yep.
37:54 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_09]: And it happens.
37:55 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_09]: And then you got a chorus.
37:56 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_09]: And what's to deal with the chorus?
37:57 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_10]: It like has a hook and it repeats and then you get another verse and another chorus and then the songs are over.
38:03 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, so, and maybe there's little other things that happened.
38:05 --> 38:07 [SPEAKER_10]: It's little twinkles, like a bridge in between.
38:07 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_10]: But that's right.
38:08 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_09]: And we're going to talk about that form.
38:10 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_09]: But we're going to talk about the ways in which the song breaks that form.
38:13 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_09]: And actually, maybe has more in common with the Joseph Hayden's string quartet.
38:17 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_08]: OK.
38:18 --> 38:18 [SPEAKER_09]: So coming back to that.
38:19 --> 38:27 [SPEAKER_09]: So this form incidentally goes way back, any guesses like what genre would have been an early popularizer of this.
38:27 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And I mean, like early 20th century, or even 1800s.
38:31 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_10]: The Joseph Hayden's string quartet?
38:33 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_09]: That's earlier than that.
38:34 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_09]: That's going to be 18th century.
38:36 --> 38:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, but that's not verse chorus.
38:37 --> 38:39 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, pop music.
38:39 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Like where does this come from?
38:41 --> 38:42 [SPEAKER_10]: Um, Elvis?
38:42 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_09]: way earlier than that.
38:44 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Let's come back to Elvis.
38:45 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
38:45 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_09]: We'll come back.
38:45 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_09]: We'll come back to rock and roll.
38:47 --> 38:53 [SPEAKER_09]: So if you think back to the late 1800s, like Minstrel C, think like O Susanna songs like that.
38:54 --> 38:55 [SPEAKER_09]: That's verse chorus form.
38:56 --> 39:00 [SPEAKER_09]: And it becomes really prominent actually with country music in the early 20th century.
39:00 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_09]: So if you think this is the legendary Carter family, very influential, like a family band.
39:07 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_09]: Like, I think husband and wife and then a sister of one of them, and Maybell Carter, very formative as a guitarist.
39:14 --> 39:17 [SPEAKER_09]: This style of country guitar is super influential.
39:18 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Their version of Keep on the Sunny Side, the songs from 1899, written by Aida Blancorn and Jay Howard and Wizzle, but this is from 1928, here's a verse.
39:33 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_12]: There's a bride there, but it's not too, so we meet with the dark, there's some strife It's not inside me, all so we meet Sounds like Emma Daughter, in his drug band I don't know
39:51 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_09]: And then that comes up, it came up on a lower-hand show.
39:55 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_09]: I know it came up on our show last season still don't know what it is.
39:58 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_09]: That's very good.
39:59 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_09]: But that Maybell's got, it's called Thumb Rush.
40:02 --> 40:03 [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's the original name.
40:04 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
40:04 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
40:06 --> 40:08 [SPEAKER_09]: That is a verse.
40:08 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
40:09 --> 40:12 [SPEAKER_09]: So the verse often less catchy, more conversational.
40:13 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
40:13 --> 40:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Often the words will change throughout the song.
40:16 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_09]: The verse often, especially in a country song, will tell a story.
40:20 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_10]: I was just going to say the verse is where you get the content where you tell the story and the chorus is where you're like reminded of the vibe.
40:27 --> 40:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you get the universal ideas in the chorus.
40:29 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_12]: So let's listen to the chorus of Keep on the sunny side.
40:49 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_10]: Those lyrics are creepy and toxic.
40:52 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_09]: Toxic positivity.
40:53 --> 40:54 [SPEAKER_09]: Toxic positivity.
40:54 --> 40:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Everybody tuned into our season again.
40:55 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, so, but universal ideas, the chorus in this song will always come back the same.
41:03 --> 41:06 [SPEAKER_09]: That's not true with all pop music, but it's very often true.
41:06 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_09]: Usually catch here, simpler melodically, easier to sing along with these are common things in a chorus, more backing vocals, also, right, called the chorus for reason.
41:20 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_09]: So, essentially, verse chorus form involves the alternation of a verse and a chorus.
41:26 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And for a song like this, that's all it would be, except there could be a solo passage or something.
41:32 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_09]: But this form is not dominant in American popular music in the first half of the 20th century.
41:38 --> 42:07 [SPEAKER_09]: way more often we have on the R&B side of things in blues we have something called the 12 bar blues which is a certain stock chord progression that is also a form and something called A-A-B-A which we could probably talk about later which was really common in musicals and thus in like mainstream pop for decades and decades A-A-B-A which means you do something you do it
42:07 --> 42:09 [SPEAKER_10]: It's just like poetry or storytelling.
42:10 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_09]: There's certainly an analogous poetic form.
42:13 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
42:14 --> 42:17 [SPEAKER_09]: And so it's really rock and roll that starts using.
42:18 --> 42:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Because rock and roll, even for ways we can talk about later, especially when we talk about appropriation, is like a fusion of a lot of things.
42:26 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_09]: rhythm and blues, country music, blues, blues, to in Penale pop.
42:31 --> 42:41 [SPEAKER_09]: And so what we get is in a lot of cases, sort of blues music, R&B music with this verse chorus form sometimes pasted on.
42:41 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_09]: And then by the time we get to the Beatles, it's like by the end of the Beatles, it is replaced it.
42:46 --> 42:52 [SPEAKER_09]: If you listen to early Beatles, you've got A-A-A-B-A for a lot of that music, like this boy sounds like that.
42:53 --> 42:55 [SPEAKER_09]: But by the time we get to,
42:55 --> 42:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Lucy in this guy with diamonds.
42:56 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_09]: That's first course.
42:57 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
42:58 --> 42:59 [SPEAKER_09]: So here's a rock and roll tune.
43:00 --> 43:00 [SPEAKER_09]: Not Elvis.
43:01 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_09]: Big Joe Turner, 1954.
43:03 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_14]: The verse of Shake Rattle and Roll.
43:25 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_09]: So if another verse happened, what would you expect?
43:27 --> 43:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The lyrics would change, yeah.
43:29 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And the chorus always stays the same.
43:30 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_09]: And then of course, in this song, you get it a few times.
43:33 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_09]: It's always the same.
43:46 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and it's easy to learn those lyrics.
43:54 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
43:54 --> 43:57 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, for sure, because it's very repetitive and they're quick.
43:57 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_10]: I was even just thinking of just songwriting in general and how it feels like most of the effort is spent on the verses and the chorus is just like, okay, here it is the chorus again.
44:08 --> 44:09 [SPEAKER_10]: I
44:09 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_09]: but a good chorus is hard to write and really hard.
44:12 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's really important, but once you have it, it's locked in.
44:15 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_09]: You don't have to change as much, maybe.
44:16 --> 44:17 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
44:17 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_09]: So, let's see how this song, Motown Philly, fits in with this tradition, right?
44:22 --> 44:23 [SPEAKER_09]: That's the game today.
44:24 --> 44:35 [SPEAKER_09]: So I'm going to be using a common labeling system as we talk through this and I already used it a little bit when I said A-A-B-A, right?
44:35 --> 44:42 [SPEAKER_09]: So a common way that you document for him is by giving a different letter to a different section.
44:42 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_09]: So when we have something called a fixed form, like a form that has a standard map, we can get other terms, like verse, chorus, intro,
44:52 --> 45:04 [SPEAKER_09]: for classical fans, sonata exposition development recapitulation, but when things don't fall neatly into those categories, the words don't always help.
45:05 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
45:05 --> 45:07 [SPEAKER_09]: Like you get kind of goofy.
45:07 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_09]: It's the pre post bridge, like stuff like that, right?
45:09 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_10]: Right, Taylor Swift always says things like that.
45:11 --> 45:14 [SPEAKER_10]: Like the post-bridge pre-chorus, it's like, what do you do?
45:14 --> 45:20 [SPEAKER_09]: It starts to become harder for someone to know what you're talking about if you're kind of having to make up terms on this fly.
45:20 --> 45:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So we can always fall back on letters, right?
45:24 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
45:24 --> 45:32 [SPEAKER_09]: And so when we talk about form, I mentioned this in our little mini episode last season sort of explaining music terms.
45:32 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_09]: When we're doing form, we're essentially talking about the interaction of three things.
45:38 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Repeating repetition, contrast, which is when something's different or variation, which is when something is kind of different.
45:47 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
45:47 --> 45:53 [SPEAKER_09]: And that's basically a form is the progression of musical events along those three variables, right?
45:54 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_09]: So for example, if our first section is A,
45:58 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_09]: And that's usually what you should do.
46:00 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_02]: The first section generally makes sense.
46:01 --> 46:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Now there's some exceptions where you would want to like not do that, but I don't want to get it at that.
46:05 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:06 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_09]: First section generally A.
46:07 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_09]: If the second thing that happens in the song is the first section happening again, that's a repetition.
46:12 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
46:12 --> 46:13 [SPEAKER_09]: We would just call it A again.
46:14 --> 46:16 [SPEAKER_09]: So the song would go A, A.
46:16 --> 46:22 [SPEAKER_09]: Right, now what if the next thing that happens is a section of music that's super different.
46:22 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_09]: That's a contrast.
46:24 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_09]: What would I do?
46:25 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_10]: Be.
46:25 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Be.
46:26 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
46:27 --> 46:28 [SPEAKER_09]: And then let's say B happens again.
46:28 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_09]: I'll put another B.
46:29 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And let's say the next thing that happens is something new.
46:31 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_09]: I'll put C. Okay.
46:33 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_09]: What if the next thing that happens is be, but like transformed some way like different lyrics, extra vocal harmony's new instruments.
46:41 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_09]: That's a variation, right?
46:43 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
46:43 --> 46:45 [SPEAKER_09]: So what letter would I use?
46:45 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, ABCDEF, what am I doing?
46:47 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's like big, but in evolution, this is a variation.
46:51 --> 47:01 [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe like B, not B, B, because that would just be the repeating of B would be like B, if it's two, if it's B and A, it's much together, would you say B A?
47:01 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_09]: So if you write B A, it seems like it's B and then A.
47:05 --> 47:08 [SPEAKER_09]: So what we use is B-pron.
47:08 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, yeah, I was gonna say like B with a three above it.
47:11 --> 47:13 [SPEAKER_10]: B with a little like a superscript.
47:13 --> 47:14 [SPEAKER_09]: A posture V essentially, right?
47:15 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_09]: Or a number one.
47:17 --> 47:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
47:18 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_09]: So B variation one.
47:19 --> 47:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So if my song goes A, B, C, B prime.
47:23 --> 47:25 [SPEAKER_09]: And then Blader B double prime is at five.
47:25 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm already a lot, and I'm not lost, but I'm just like thinking forward to like applying this.
47:32 --> 47:33 [SPEAKER_09]: The song's gonna be crazy.
47:33 --> 47:34 [SPEAKER_09]: It's a long.
47:34 --> 47:41 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm looking at the lyrics now because I'm so visual, I know you're going to start like quizzing me on like what letter is which verse and I need to see it.
47:41 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to quiz you, but I'm going to read them out loud because it gets crazy.
47:44 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_10]: It gets, it's a long song and there's a lot of iteration, that's not the right word, but a lot of like.
47:50 --> 48:01 [SPEAKER_09]: changes and spoiler that's what's going to bring us to our knees to this oh gosh right because it starts to get crazy it starts to get crazy
48:17 --> 48:28 [SPEAKER_09]: Let's go through this song, but we'll think of it from the perspective first of a pop song coming out in 1991, which means essentially we're starting from the frame of verse chorus.
48:29 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
48:29 --> 48:30 [SPEAKER_09]: So we start with an intro.
48:30 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_09]: Intros are not always there, but they're often there.
48:33 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_09]: And when they happen, they usually are related to the music in the song later.
48:39 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_09]: It's not always true, but usually the intro and a pop song is based on the chorus or based on the verse or something.
48:55 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_09]: right, and then it goes into the chorus, but that intro is the drums, some bass, some sense, it's sampling that boys to men, ABC, BBD line in the first verse.
49:07 --> 49:10 [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to call this a, because it's the first thing that happened.
49:10 --> 49:11 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
49:11 --> 49:11 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
49:11 --> 49:13 [SPEAKER_10]: I think that that's risky.
49:13 --> 49:14 [SPEAKER_09]: Should we call it Z?
49:15 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_10]: No, no, no, it makes sense.
49:16 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_10]: It makes sense.
49:17 --> 49:17 [UNKNOWN]: It makes sense.
49:17 --> 49:22 [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to need a later though, but it goes in the you just go in order.
49:22 --> 49:22 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
49:23 --> 49:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Because otherwise, now we can, we're simultaneously doing two things.
49:27 --> 49:31 [SPEAKER_09]: We're simultaneously giving it a letter, but we're also calling it an intro.
49:31 --> 49:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
49:31 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_09]: Because we're assuming this is a verse chorus.
49:33 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
49:34 --> 49:36 [SPEAKER_09]: And so we'll use the terms when they help.
49:36 --> 49:37 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
49:38 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_09]: Now, it's only a problem if later in the song, we learn that the terms are no longer help.
49:42 --> 49:44 [SPEAKER_10]: Well, because that's never going to happen again.
49:45 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, if the, and so this is interesting, I didn't want to get into it, but there are cases where you won't want to use if the intro is a weird thing that never happens again, sometimes you could like just put it as I or something great, that's why I'm like, did we just like,
50:10 --> 50:11 [SPEAKER_09]: We'll see.
50:11 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_10]: We'll see, right?
50:12 --> 50:13 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm stressed.
50:13 --> 50:23 [SPEAKER_09]: Usually look, there are reasons why labeling a little intro is A is problematic, but the fact of the matter is keeping things chronologically going through the alphabet keeps things better.
50:23 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_10]: It's going to pay off for it.
50:24 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Because because you can see a letter and know that it came before, and I comes later than A in the alphabet, so that could be confusing.
50:32 --> 50:34 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, so don't bore us.
50:34 --> 50:35 [SPEAKER_09]: Let's get to the chorus.
50:37 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_09]: we get the chorus of the song, which we will label as B.
50:59 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_10]: So they're just coming strong with the chorus.
51:01 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_09]: That's right, and not to be to dead horse.
51:03 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_09]: What makes that feel like the chorus?
51:05 --> 51:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Even if you haven't heard the song, you don't know that it's repeating.
51:09 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
51:09 --> 51:11 [SPEAKER_10]: Because it's like giving us the vibe.
51:11 --> 51:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Gives you the vibe, simple.
51:12 --> 51:14 [SPEAKER_10]: It's not narrative, it's just a vibe check.
51:15 --> 51:18 [SPEAKER_09]: and catchy melody, the back of vocals.
51:18 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Now, back of vocals are gonna be all over this whole group, but it feels coracy, it's catchy, it's simple, not too hard, not too soft.
51:28 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Here's a contrasting chorus from another song, which I've already referenced a million times, 1995, one sweet day, does this feel coracy?
51:43 --> 51:54 [SPEAKER_17]: I miss Mike, man.
51:54 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_09]: That was you can hear it in a morrow.
51:56 --> 51:58 [SPEAKER_09]: I carry some of your little low bass voice.
51:58 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_10]: You're crying.
51:59 --> 52:00 [SPEAKER_10]: So cool.
52:00 --> 52:01 [SPEAKER_10]: I don't care who you are.
52:01 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_10]: If you have a human feeling, you're you're getting nostalgic.
52:05 --> 52:07 [SPEAKER_10]: I think that that yeah, that's for sure, chorus.
52:07 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_10]: And like sets the vibe and tells you what to feel when you're listening the song.
52:11 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
52:12 --> 52:14 [SPEAKER_10]: And that's what I think of as easier.
52:14 --> 52:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Easy learnability, so easy to sing to epic too, right?
52:19 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_09]: What happens next in the song?
52:20 --> 52:23 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, first over to first verse.
52:23 --> 52:24 [SPEAKER_09]: So far we are A B.
52:24 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, so what we got we get verse one.
52:28 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_06]: And it goes on a little bit, but that is Nathan Morris telling us a story.
52:43 --> 52:46 [SPEAKER_09]: More conversational, less catchy, less repetitive.
52:46 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
52:47 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
52:47 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_10]: It was like a verse.
52:48 --> 52:48 [SPEAKER_10]: So we call it.
52:48 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_10]: We don't call it verse one.
52:49 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_10]: We would call that C. Well, it's both, right?
52:51 --> 52:51 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
52:52 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
52:52 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_09]: We label it as a C. So this letter system transcends style transcends form what you can always use it, but a fixed form a common form like first chorus also has words we can use.
53:05 --> 53:07 [SPEAKER_09]: So it's both verse one and
53:07 --> 53:25 [SPEAKER_10]: Let her see just like Motum fillies back again is both chorus and B because it's the second thing that happens right using that elephant convention just to like make sense of this despite form well because if we have something that comes back that's like based on the chorus.
53:25 --> 53:28 [SPEAKER_09]: If something comes back, that's a transformation of the chorus.
53:28 --> 53:32 [SPEAKER_09]: The alpha, alphabetical system lets us call it prime.
53:32 --> 53:40 [SPEAKER_09]: So we can see, oh, like a common thing would be like a good tar solo in a song happening over the chord progression that is the verse or the chorus.
53:40 --> 53:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
53:40 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_09]: And then you would call that a prime or something.
53:42 --> 53:46 [SPEAKER_09]: And so you see the form and you go, oh, I understand the interaction of these.
53:47 --> 53:49 [SPEAKER_09]: And maybe as long as if you just called it a bridge.
53:49 --> 53:50 [SPEAKER_10]: Right?
53:50 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_10]: I understand what you're trying to teach.
53:52 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Love it.
53:52 --> 53:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, those of you at home listening on 2x speed.
53:55 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_09]: Are you following here?
53:56 --> 53:57 [SPEAKER_09]: You get lost.
53:57 --> 53:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
53:57 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I lost a looking at the lyrics for your talk.
53:59 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
53:59 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm finding.
54:00 --> 54:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody play a hard fall.
54:01 --> 54:02 [SPEAKER_09]: Look at the lyrics.
54:02 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_09]: So so notably, though, this does have the boys to man ABC BPD line, which was used in fragmentary sample form in the A.
54:11 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_09]: So you could go, well, this is an April.
54:13 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_09]: No, this feels like a different section we're calling it a sea.
54:17 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, give you a break.
54:18 --> 54:19 [SPEAKER_09]: What do we have next?
54:19 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_09]: We have probably my favorite part of the form.
54:22 --> 54:22 [SPEAKER_09]: The pre-chorus.
54:23 --> 54:33 [SPEAKER_04]: I love a good pre-chorus.
54:42 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_10]: I love this pre-chorus because it gives them all a chance to shine and you really introduce to them as a band and that's what the lyrics are insinuating as well.
54:52 --> 54:53 [SPEAKER_10]: We'll go call this, where are we?
54:54 --> 55:01 [SPEAKER_09]: We would call this pre-chorus D. Yeah, pre-chorus one is D. And we get a lot of Wanya Morris, no relation to Nathan Morris.
55:02 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Boys to men loves them, a good Wanya Morris.
55:06 --> 55:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Super emotional pre-chorus.
55:08 --> 55:09 [SPEAKER_09]: Here's end of the road.
55:11 --> 55:32 [SPEAKER_05]: He's the one that was like...
55:33 --> 55:35 [SPEAKER_10]: He's a little bit broken, and I can probably fix him.
55:35 --> 55:38 [SPEAKER_09]: So he kind of sounds like he's about to cry, right?
55:38 --> 55:46 [SPEAKER_09]: He has the extremely emotional voice and a pre-chorus often serves the purpose of building tension.
55:47 --> 55:48 [SPEAKER_09]: So you want the chorus.
55:48 --> 55:55 [SPEAKER_09]: And so in end of the road, there are some fun chords, but really it's building energy because of how plaintive his vocal is.
55:56 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_09]: In Motown, Philly,
55:57 --> 56:14 [SPEAKER_09]: There's the trading off of different singers, the backing vocals, but also the chords are moving faster and a little more interesting than in the verse, building tension for the chorus.
56:24 --> 56:28 [SPEAKER_09]: different ways of doing it, but the pre-chorus is pointing towards this.
56:32 --> 56:33 [SPEAKER_10]: which is B, chorus 2.
56:33 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, so what do we have so far?
56:35 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_09]: Chorus 2, which is basically exactly the same as course A.
56:39 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_09]: We have A, intro, B, chorus 1, C, verse 1, D, pre chorus 1, B, chorus 2.
56:47 --> 56:49 [SPEAKER_09]: And it's not different enough.
56:49 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, it's chorus 2, but we're not going to call it B-prime.
56:52 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_09]: It's just B, this is a repetition, not a variation.
56:55 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
56:55 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_09]: So ABC, D, B, that's our form so far.
57:00 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_09]: We're fitting squarely into verse chorus at this point anyways, so you could just say intro chorus verse one pre chorus chorus right so what would we expect next would be another verse right that's the logical thing to do next in the verse chorus form but what we get is this
57:25 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Y'all, these four new jacks is real, smooth on a hum new chip.
57:29 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Make my shine of one, you know the mentality.
57:32 --> 57:35 [SPEAKER_09]: Keep flipping to get my spot on by his honest.
57:35 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_09]: We get a Michael Bivins little sort of rap.
57:39 --> 57:40 [SPEAKER_10]: Great.
57:41 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_09]: So is that the bridge?
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
57:43 --> 57:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Like little too early in the song for a bridge.
57:45 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_10]: Can I be?
57:46 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_10]: Can it be a prime?
57:47 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Ooh, does it sound like the intro?
57:52 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Y'all, these four new jacks is real, smooth on a home new chip.
57:55 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, let's listen to the intro.
58:02 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_09]: It's got the same beat, but most of it's different.
58:05 --> 58:08 [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know that it's really- Just trying to like, fit it into the motif?
58:08 --> 58:11 [SPEAKER_10]: without giving in a new label because it's not new.
58:11 --> 58:12 [SPEAKER_10]: We've heard this by before.
58:12 --> 58:13 [SPEAKER_10]: We've heard it before.
58:13 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_09]: Have we had a rapper?
58:14 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_10]: Not a rapper, but this is like such a stand-alone moment in the song, like you don't hear it anywhere else.
58:19 --> 58:20 [SPEAKER_10]: And it does.
58:20 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_09]: So it probably needs its own letter then.
58:22 --> 58:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So right.
58:23 --> 58:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So.
58:23 --> 58:36 [SPEAKER_09]: It's just kind of like a bridge, but it doesn't function a bridge usually is a late song point of maximal contrast to bring us away to make our return to the chorus be really satisfying.
58:36 --> 58:38 [SPEAKER_09]: So what the heck is this?
58:38 --> 58:45 [SPEAKER_09]: First of all, from a letter perspective, you know, it's kind of based on a, but let's just call it e because it is different, right?
58:45 --> 58:49 [SPEAKER_09]: We got ABCD B E.
58:49 --> 58:49 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
58:49 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_09]: What if we try to hold on to our verse chorus model?
58:53 --> 58:53 [SPEAKER_09]: What do we call this?
58:54 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Is this something called a post chorus?
58:57 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, here's a which is a common variation in there.
59:01 --> 59:09 [SPEAKER_09]: This is a common thing that happens where you have a little sometimes called a tag that happens after the chorus before the next verse.
59:10 --> 59:13 [SPEAKER_09]: This is unbended knee from their second record.
59:13 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_09]: This is a great example of a post
59:17 --> 59:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I give it to you
59:37 --> 59:38 [SPEAKER_09]: So then we get a verse.
59:38 --> 59:42 [SPEAKER_09]: That whole thing is the post-chorus, but that happens a few times.
59:43 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_09]: This just happens once, and so it's a little random to be a post-chorus.
59:48 --> 59:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Could it be a pre-verse?
59:50 --> 59:56 [SPEAKER_09]: That's another thing that you sometimes happen, which think of it as a similar thing except
59:56 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_09]: The post-chorus is a tag at the end of the chorus.
59:59 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_09]: A preverse is like a lead up to the verse.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:11 [SPEAKER_10]: I like calling it a preverse because this reminds me of the intro, so to call it a second intro to me, but a little bit more developed.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:15 [SPEAKER_10]: So I think I would call it, I would tag it to the what's coming next.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16 [SPEAKER_09]: That's what it's starting to happen.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:20 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is the preverse as I'm labeling it in, thank you.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:37 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, like sets the tone for what's coming next.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:38 [SPEAKER_10]: It's like moving us forward.
01:00:38 --> 01:00:44 [SPEAKER_09]: So I think this rap section, we could just label it rap, but maybe we could call it a preverse.
01:00:44 --> 01:00:47 [SPEAKER_09]: I will say it only happens once though, right?
01:00:47 --> 01:00:51 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is not like a steady predictable thing for other verses.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:53 [SPEAKER_09]: It happens only before verse two.
01:00:55 --> 01:01:00 [SPEAKER_09]: So we're at A, B, C, D, chorus, B, Prevers, E, right?
01:01:01 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_09]: So then we get another verse.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_09]: And verse in our previous form is going to be C, right?
01:01:08 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:10 [SPEAKER_09]: Intro, chorus, and then verse one.
01:01:11 --> 01:01:13 [SPEAKER_09]: So here's what verse two sounds like.
01:01:13 --> 01:01:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably this is just going to be a C. Maybe a C prime.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:30 [SPEAKER_06]: I've been direct from the early time But I've been happy and we can't get down
01:01:30 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to call this C prime right you could sometimes just say okay well versus always have different lyrics it's taken for granted we'll just call it C but this is quite different it has the same piano risk it starts with the same melodies so it's definitely still a verse but this time it's Sean Stockman singing lead it's got the data data it's structured a bit
01:01:58 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_10]: And I like this because the other seaverse also references their affinity to Philadelphia and how they're developing as a band like conceptually it's a yeah it's autobiographical conceptually so I like having the sea label on it because it makes connection between those two verses totally so why see prime because it's a variation of sea not just a repetition.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_09]: What do we get next?
01:02:21 --> 01:02:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Another pre-chorus, which is pretty much the same with a little bit of tweak, so we'll just call that D again.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:29 [SPEAKER_09]: And then a third chorus, which is again pretty much the same.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:30 [SPEAKER_09]: So we'll just call that B.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:36 [SPEAKER_09]: So to review the intros A, the chorus is B.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:47 [SPEAKER_09]: The verses are C. The pre-chorus is D, and the pre-verses E. So we get A, B, C, D, B, E, C prime, D, B.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 [SPEAKER_09]: And this is where you start to go, okay, this is getting a little unwieldy, right?
01:02:51 --> 01:02:55 [SPEAKER_09]: So maybe our terms with a verse chorus are better for the song.
01:02:55 --> 01:02:55 [SPEAKER_09]: We'll see.
01:02:56 --> 01:02:57 [SPEAKER_09]: So far, so far.
01:02:57 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_09]: because it almost broke with the previous thing, but I think the preversal.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I look home.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:02 [SPEAKER_10]: It's just rap.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:03 [SPEAKER_10]: Rap, preversal rap.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Preversal rap.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_09]: They never see it again.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:06 [SPEAKER_10]: I like it.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:06 [SPEAKER_10]: I like it.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:07 [SPEAKER_10]: Like, all right.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:10 [SPEAKER_10]: You kind of throw an EOA on that one, you know?
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_09]: He's we're wasting a perfectly good vowel on that.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:12 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We never see it again.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Hey everybody, Mark here in the edit.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:21 [SPEAKER_09]: If you're getting overwhelmed by the ABCDBC Prime stuff, whatever, check the show notes.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:24 [SPEAKER_09]: It's a spoiler for the final form of this song.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:28 [SPEAKER_09]: But I have all three different analytical types to the song.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, three.
01:03:29 --> 01:03:30 [SPEAKER_09]: There's the verse chorus.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:31 [SPEAKER_09]: There's the letters.
01:03:31 --> 01:03:33 [SPEAKER_09]: And then a third one I bring up at the end.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:34 [SPEAKER_09]: Pause.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:36 [SPEAKER_09]: Take a look at the description on your podcast app.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_09]: I know this is not a visual medium.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:41 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, weird stuff starts happening.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_09]: So we're going to hear the very tail end of the third chorus.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:46 [SPEAKER_09]: And then we get this.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:01 [SPEAKER_09]: What the hell is that?
01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 [SPEAKER_10]: It is a iteration of the intro.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Sure is.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_09]: Here's the intro.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:14 [SPEAKER_09]: It's got a little more to it, but it is based on the intro.
01:04:14 --> 01:04:16 [SPEAKER_10]: It's a prime all day.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:20 [SPEAKER_09]: A prime all day, but what the heck do we call this?
01:04:20 --> 01:04:21 [SPEAKER_09]: We can't call it an intro.
01:04:21 --> 01:04:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Now, Chris Demakes, you know, have I said, Chris Demakes is the lead vocalist and guitarist of Lesson Jake, but he has a song writing.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:30 [SPEAKER_10]: There we go.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:31 [UNKNOWN]: Okay.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:32 [SPEAKER_09]: everybody.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:32 [SPEAKER_10]: Well, check it out.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:46 [SPEAKER_09]: Kristen makes podcasts is great because he'll bring in a songwriter, you know, anything from like punk and Scott folks, but also like John Oates or Hughie Lewis, he'll be in there talking about like famous songs and they get really, you think I'm getting nitty-gritty.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:49 [SPEAKER_09]: They go through every single part of the song.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:54 [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I've recently learned that I'm really into songs and you love songwriting, but
01:04:54 --> 01:04:57 [SPEAKER_09]: he'll use the term re intro for an intro that comes.
01:04:57 --> 01:04:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_09]: That is very much a made up thing.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_10]: Like like astronauty re entry entry into orbit.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:10 [SPEAKER_09]: So I don't know that that makes sense, but it's the intro coming back.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:13 [SPEAKER_09]: This isn't quite a breakdown because it's too intense to be a breakdown.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:15 [SPEAKER_09]: What we know it is.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_09]: is a prime right it's not a bridge really it's it's sort of just the intro coming back right so this is a thing that boys to man will do with all buryingly intro back this is one of their new jack swing bangers from that first record called simpon which we've already distracted the title this is what i would call the bridge of that song but really it's just bringing back the intro
01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 [SPEAKER_09]: It's kind of like a copy paste of the beginning of the song with the new Jack swing.
01:05:57 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_09]: Back, back, back, back, back, back drum part, right?
01:06:00 --> 01:06:02 [SPEAKER_09]: But it's not like we just do the intro and go right back to the chorus.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:05 [SPEAKER_09]: So this doesn't get to be called a bridge.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Because what happens after this second intro?
01:06:09 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_09]: We get this.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Now check this out one day back, four guys, one at a sing.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:22 [SPEAKER_07]: They came once and I said, well, what's your name?
01:06:22 --> 01:06:23 [SPEAKER_07]: What's the name?
01:06:23 --> 01:06:24 [SPEAKER_07]: You know what I'm saying?
01:06:24 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_09]: It's Michael Bivins again with another rap.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Rap.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:31 [SPEAKER_09]: And it's musically similar to the first rap.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:33 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is rap, too.
01:06:33 --> 01:06:38 [SPEAKER_09]: We can't call that preverse, though, because this doesn't come before a verse.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:40 [SPEAKER_10]: Would we call this e-prime?
01:06:40 --> 01:06:45 [SPEAKER_09]: This would be e-prime, so I think we just got to call it rap too.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:54 [SPEAKER_09]: It's not really a bridge either because it just comes from the second intro and it goes to something that's not the chorus of the verse.
01:06:55 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_09]: It's just sort of there.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 [SPEAKER_10]: So it's not post-chorus or pre-versed.
01:06:58 --> 01:07:04 [SPEAKER_09]: No, because it's in the middle of essentially three sections that together we could kind of call the bridge.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:08 [SPEAKER_09]: But you see that our verse chorus terms have kind of failed us here.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:24 [SPEAKER_09]: because where the bridge would normally go, the bridge being a point of contrast that brings us back to the chorus, we have three interconnected sections because right after Biv does his rap, we get this.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:35 [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe that's the bridge.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_09]: But I will call this like the scat section kind of.
01:07:39 --> 01:07:44 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it kind of is giving intro vibes too, but not enough to do like super different.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:47 [SPEAKER_10]: Now, what happens after prime?
01:07:47 --> 01:07:50 [SPEAKER_10]: Like if it's a third time, do you call it something different?
01:07:50 --> 01:07:51 [SPEAKER_09]: Double prime.
01:07:51 --> 01:07:52 [SPEAKER_10]: Double prime, okay.
01:07:53 --> 01:07:54 [SPEAKER_10]: So this wouldn't be a prime.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:00 [SPEAKER_10]: Oh gosh, this wouldn't be a double prime because it's not close enough to the intro, even though like,
01:08:01 --> 01:08:06 [SPEAKER_09]: Logically it is, the intro doesn't have any melody at all, I know.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:17 [SPEAKER_09]: This is, look, we have to take for granted that like the beat, the overall swung sixteenths, back beat, hip hoppy, new jack swing beat, goes throughout the entire song.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:20 [SPEAKER_09]: So just because this section has that beat.
01:08:20 --> 01:08:26 [SPEAKER_09]: doesn't mean everything, everything, if we took the beat as an indicator, the whole song would be basically AA, AA, AA, AA, right?
01:08:27 --> 01:08:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
01:08:27 --> 01:08:30 [SPEAKER_09]: So the fact that it has the same beat is the intro, kind of doesn't matter.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:38 [SPEAKER_09]: So musically, this doom, doom, doom, doom, datatat, this like bell core that are doing like an octahpella group would, this is its own thing.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:43 [SPEAKER_09]: This gets to be F. And
01:08:44 --> 01:08:53 [SPEAKER_09]: This is not the only time boys to mend us this this is a tune Jezebel from their second record
01:09:10 --> 01:09:15 [SPEAKER_09]: Now, that one has more like real lyrics in it, but essentially they're going off.
01:09:15 --> 01:09:18 [SPEAKER_09]: A lot like what would be called a shout chorus in a jazz tune.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:27 [SPEAKER_09]: We're like, you've done a bunch of the solos and then if you're the end of the song, all the horns like, but, but, but, but, but, but, but they all play together with with tight harmony.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:28 [SPEAKER_10]: It's like show offy.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:29 [SPEAKER_09]: Show offy.
01:09:30 --> 01:09:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Or, you know,
01:09:32 --> 01:09:35 [SPEAKER_09]: 1992, my love and you're never going to get it by and vote.
01:09:36 --> 01:09:48 [SPEAKER_11]: They have essentially a vocal version of a shout chorus at the end of that song.
01:09:52 --> 01:09:53 [SPEAKER_10]: That's a great song.
01:09:53 --> 01:09:53 [SPEAKER_10]: Sure is.
01:09:54 --> 01:09:54 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
01:09:54 --> 01:09:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe one day we can talk about it.
01:09:55 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe maybe one day.
01:09:57 --> 01:09:58 [SPEAKER_09]: Dream.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:01 [SPEAKER_09]: So what the heck is going on with our?
01:10:01 --> 01:10:15 [SPEAKER_09]: If you want to use, if you want to use the verse chorus frame still in this song, you kind of have no choice, but to smash the second intro, the rap and the scat section into one section and call it a bridge, right?
01:10:15 --> 01:10:21 [SPEAKER_09]: But okay, but that doesn't represent accurately what's happening because it's really three separate sections.
01:10:21 --> 01:10:22 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
01:10:22 --> 01:10:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So take a deep breath.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_09]: If the sketch section is F, the song goes A, B, C, D, B, E, C, Prime, D, B, A Prime, E Prime, F, which gives you as a musician a pretty accurate understanding of the flow of things.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:42 [SPEAKER_09]: But it's also really discombobulating, right?
01:10:43 --> 01:11:06 [SPEAKER_09]: Our terms, if we try to use verse chorus, we get intro chorus, verse one, pre chorus one, chorus, pre verse or rap one, verse two, pre chorus two, chorus three, intro two, plus, rap two, plus,
01:11:06 --> 01:11:08 [SPEAKER_09]: So, kind of messy.
01:11:08 --> 01:11:14 [SPEAKER_09]: Mostly fits first chorus form, but the three-part bridge is kind of weird, because what happens by the way at the end?
01:11:14 --> 01:11:32 [SPEAKER_09]: I should say, we get another chorus, so a B, we end there on a B, and then another reinterpretation of the intro, which we could call an outro.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:34 [SPEAKER_09]: So that's a double prime.
01:11:34 --> 01:11:35 [SPEAKER_10]: That's what I have on my note.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:37 [SPEAKER_09]: You got it, you already making the notes.
01:11:37 --> 01:11:41 [SPEAKER_10]: So the only way this would work for me is to do it on paper.
01:11:41 --> 01:11:41 [SPEAKER_10]: Sure.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:46 [SPEAKER_09]: Sorry listeners, this is a audio medium.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:47 [SPEAKER_09]: This is why I didn't want to do form.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:49 [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's really interesting.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:51 [SPEAKER_10]: And I like the mapping on it quite a bit.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:53 [SPEAKER_10]: Like I'm really intrigued by this process.
01:11:53 --> 01:11:54 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm really into it.
01:11:54 --> 01:12:04 [SPEAKER_10]: And for me, because I'm so visual, I need to be able to see it just track, but not everyone needs to do that, like you probably don't need to write it all down.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:05 [SPEAKER_09]: 100% I need to write it all down.
01:12:05 --> 01:12:06 [SPEAKER_09]: Do you?
01:12:06 --> 01:12:07 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it makes me feel better.
01:12:07 --> 01:12:14 [SPEAKER_09]: When I'm doing an analysis, like, high level, like, actual, an analytical project, or whatever, back when I was doing papers.
01:12:14 --> 01:12:16 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm writing all over a score in cases.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:19 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm actually marking things in the score.
01:12:19 --> 01:12:20 [SPEAKER_09]: What key we're in?
01:12:20 --> 01:12:25 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm labeling uppercase letters for the section, lowercase letters for the phrase group.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:29 [SPEAKER_09]: So like section B, phrase A would be B and then a little A.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:30 [SPEAKER_09]: And stuff like that.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:38 [SPEAKER_10]: That's not what AI, but you could really just load up some sheet music into AI and just say, like, label this or AI is not going to know when the formal demarcation is happening.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:41 [SPEAKER_09]: That's the thing is you don't, it takes human intuition.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:42 [SPEAKER_09]: Look.
01:12:42 --> 01:12:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Look, one day, one day that I will be able to do it.
01:12:45 --> 01:12:53 [SPEAKER_09]: But you're listening to the end of a phrase and you're going, oh, that phrase is actually also the beginning of a new phrase, sonically, which means that's a phrase illusion.
01:12:53 --> 01:12:56 [SPEAKER_09]: So I need to have my bar numbers overlapping.
01:12:56 --> 01:12:59 [SPEAKER_09]: Like, you can't just look at the score and go, oh, that's the end of B.
01:12:59 --> 01:13:01 [SPEAKER_09]: You have to listen to the music.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:02 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, like you're doing music.
01:13:02 --> 01:13:03 [SPEAKER_10]: Surgery on the music.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:06 [SPEAKER_10]: Like a doctor music.
01:13:06 --> 01:13:07 [SPEAKER_09]: More diagnostic than that.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:08 [SPEAKER_09]: You're doing well.
01:13:08 --> 01:13:09 [SPEAKER_09]: That's fine.
01:13:10 --> 01:13:12 [SPEAKER_10]: That's fine.
01:13:12 --> 01:13:17 [SPEAKER_09]: So 40 minutes ago, I played a little fragment of a hide-in.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:17 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_09]: Strength on tech.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_09]: Why?
01:13:19 --> 01:13:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Because we've used two perfectly reasonable analytical methods of form and both of them are getting on wheelie.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:30 [SPEAKER_09]: So once again, one last time.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:48 [SPEAKER_09]: verse chorus form, this song goes intro, chorus one, verse one, pre chorus one, chorus two, rap one, verse two, pre chorus two, chorus three, re intro, rap two, scat chorus four outro.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:51 [SPEAKER_09]: It makes sense, but it's kind of overwhelming in detail.
01:13:51 --> 01:13:52 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:56 [SPEAKER_09]: The letter schema, which shows us the interrelationships,
01:13:56 --> 01:13:57 [SPEAKER_09]: is also kind of a lot.
01:13:58 --> 01:14:09 [SPEAKER_09]: We have A, B, C, D, B, E, C prime, D, B, A prime, E prime, F, B, A double prime.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:20 [SPEAKER_09]: And if the listeners, if you've lost me, that's the point.
01:14:20 --> 01:14:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe we should listen one more time to the Dorick string quartet playing Joseph Hyden's string quartet and E-flat major Opus 33 number two, H-O-B, Romano number three, colon 38.
01:14:32 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_09]: That's a numbering system to keep track of Hyden's work.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Moving number four, also known as the joke.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 [SPEAKER_09]: Very famous.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:39 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
01:14:39 --> 01:14:39 [SPEAKER_09]: 1781.
01:14:40 --> 01:14:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Here is the way it opens.
01:14:53 --> 01:14:59 [SPEAKER_09]: So, that is the beginning of this string quartet, and we would call that section the refrain.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:00 [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:08 [SPEAKER_09]: It's a term that sometimes is used for the chorus also in a pop song, but refrain is something in this form that is very meaningful to mean.
01:15:08 --> 01:15:10 [SPEAKER_09]: In this case, exactly what we just heard.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:12 [SPEAKER_09]: What happens next?
01:15:12 --> 01:15:13 [SPEAKER_09]: What happens next is this.
01:15:15 --> 01:15:21 [SPEAKER_09]: Is the end of the refrain?
01:15:24 --> 01:15:25 [SPEAKER_09]: something different.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:26 [SPEAKER_09]: So what letter?
01:15:28 --> 01:15:32 [SPEAKER_10]: Be.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:32 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:33 [SPEAKER_09]: And then.
01:15:34 --> 01:15:36 [SPEAKER_09]: So we have A, the refrain.
01:15:36 --> 01:15:38 [SPEAKER_09]: And then we have B, something else.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:40 [SPEAKER_09]: And then the refrain comes back.
01:15:40 --> 01:15:41 [SPEAKER_09]: So we have A, B, A.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:42 [SPEAKER_10]: And you call the something else.
01:15:43 --> 01:15:45 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, what we call it is an episode.
01:15:46 --> 01:15:47 [SPEAKER_09]: What happens later in the piece?
01:15:47 --> 01:15:48 [SPEAKER_09]: Something like this.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:04 [SPEAKER_09]: back to a refrain.
01:16:05 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_09]: So that is another episode.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:14 [SPEAKER_09]: And so what this piece of music is, this is called a Rondo, R-O-N-D-O, coming from the word round, right?
01:16:14 --> 01:16:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Basically we have a refrain, which is sort of like a pop song chorus that keeps coming back.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:24 [SPEAKER_09]: Usually the same, not always, but usually the same with other stuff in the middle.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_09]: Sometimes that stuff repeats.
01:16:26 --> 01:16:31 [SPEAKER_09]: In this Rondo, I think one of the episodes comes back to a second time, but sometimes the episodes might be different.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:41 [SPEAKER_09]: usually the deeper into the song you get, the episodes will be more robust and long and more kind of showoffy, but we keep coming back to the chorus.
01:16:41 --> 01:16:56 [SPEAKER_09]: So it's for example, a rondo would be like refrain, which is like the chorus refrain, episode one, refrain, episode two, refrain, episode one again, refrain, episode three, which is like the big one with a key change, and then end on the refrain.
01:16:56 --> 01:16:57 [SPEAKER_10]: Mark.
01:16:57 --> 01:16:59 [SPEAKER_10]: That's what voice men's doing.
01:16:59 --> 01:17:00 [SPEAKER_09]: Almost like it's what they're doing.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:08 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know that it completely works, but basically what this song is is the repeating chorus with other stuff in the middle.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:12 [SPEAKER_10]: It's like a giveaway, too, because they start with the chorus.
01:17:12 --> 01:17:22 [SPEAKER_09]: Essentially, if we're willing to kind of throw away the intro a little bit, you basically start with the chorus, which the Arrondo will almost always do that.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:26 [SPEAKER_09]: So this is the fourth movement of a shrinkortet, which is to say the final movement.
01:17:27 --> 01:17:34 [SPEAKER_09]: And classical composers like Hyden will often use the Rondo form at the end of the piece.
01:17:34 --> 01:17:37 [SPEAKER_09]: So like the last movement of a long symphony.
01:17:37 --> 01:17:37 [SPEAKER_09]: Why?
01:17:37 --> 01:17:41 [SPEAKER_09]: Because it's a catchy tune, you get to hear that tune like 10 times.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:43 [SPEAKER_09]: You leave the concert humming a tune.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:45 [SPEAKER_09]: It's not your heavy emotional movement.
01:17:46 --> 01:17:46 [SPEAKER_09]: It's the fun.
01:17:46 --> 01:17:49 [SPEAKER_09]: Let's all have a party and listen to a little hook.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:54 [SPEAKER_09]: This string quartet is called the joke because this is the return of the king.
01:17:54 --> 01:17:58 [SPEAKER_09]: Lord of the Rings film of string quartets because it ends like four times.
01:17:58 --> 01:18:10 [SPEAKER_09]: We get the refrain and then it ends and then the refrain starts again and then ends and the joke is you hear an end line over and over again to the point that it's almost you're supposed to laugh out loud, right?
01:18:11 --> 01:18:14 [SPEAKER_09]: So is Motown Philly or Rondo, right?
01:18:14 --> 01:18:19 [SPEAKER_10]: It definitely makes it easier to make sense of the form of the song when you take all of these
01:18:20 --> 01:18:26 [SPEAKER_10]: different pieces and just lump them together and to bigger groups that follow this structure of the refrain episode refrain.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:28 [SPEAKER_10]: So like it's easier to do that.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:30 [SPEAKER_10]: It's cleaner to do that.
01:18:30 --> 01:18:36 [SPEAKER_09]: If we kind of take a few assumptions like the intro and the outro sort of barely count, right.
01:18:36 --> 01:18:39 [SPEAKER_09]: The verse always happens attached to the pre-chorus.
01:18:39 --> 01:18:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
01:18:40 --> 01:18:41 [SPEAKER_09]: So
01:18:41 --> 01:18:42 [SPEAKER_09]: That's kind of one unit.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:54 [SPEAKER_09]: So we have intro, yeah, whatever, refrain episode one, which is verse pre-chorus refrain episode two, which is verse pre-chorus, but also with the rap at the beginning.
01:18:54 --> 01:18:55 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
01:18:55 --> 01:18:57 [SPEAKER_09]: It's almost like a repeat of episode one, but not quite.
01:18:58 --> 01:18:59 [SPEAKER_09]: And then refrained.
01:19:00 --> 01:19:02 [SPEAKER_09]: And then episode three, which is that big epic bridge.
01:19:02 --> 01:19:03 [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, calling that bridge first.
01:19:03 --> 01:19:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and then refrained.
01:19:05 --> 01:19:06 [SPEAKER_09]: And then a little outro at the end.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:12 [SPEAKER_09]: So it's almost works better as a classical era Rondo because is it exactly a Rondo?
01:19:12 --> 01:19:16 [SPEAKER_09]: No, of course, but it's actually easier to make sense of the form if we think of it that way.
01:19:17 --> 01:19:20 [SPEAKER_09]: Because essentially what it is is a repeating chorus,
01:19:20 --> 01:19:22 [SPEAKER_09]: with fun little diversions in the middle.
01:19:22 --> 01:19:23 [SPEAKER_09]: That's why they're episodes, right?
01:19:23 --> 01:19:25 [SPEAKER_09]: It's a little thing you do, right?
01:19:25 --> 01:19:27 [SPEAKER_09]: Before you come back to the catchy thing.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:29 [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, with like your loot and whatever.
01:19:29 --> 01:19:31 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and there's kind of with your loot.
01:19:32 --> 01:19:33 [SPEAKER_10]: No, so that's like what I'm thinking.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:35 [SPEAKER_09]: I would say a loot would predate the wrong deal.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, whatever.
01:19:37 --> 01:19:46 [SPEAKER_09]: So there's a kind of freedom in just saying, oh, it's the chorus coming back and whatever you wanna do in between is fine with me, right?
01:19:46 --> 01:19:47 [SPEAKER_10]: I love it.
01:19:47 --> 01:19:48 [SPEAKER_10]: I'm very good at it.
01:19:48 --> 01:19:49 [SPEAKER_10]: That's what I like.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:50 [SPEAKER_09]: You're right.
01:19:50 --> 01:19:53 [SPEAKER_09]: Once Nicole got the pen and paper out, she was saying it's really we're cooking.
01:20:02 --> 01:20:06 [SPEAKER_10]: Never mind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and hosted and produced by Mark Poppony.
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01:20:24 --> 01:20:25 [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for listening.