Have you ever hated a song or an artist only to change your mind later? This week, we are thrilled to welcome rock critic and host of the 60 Songs That Explain the ‘90s podcast, Rob Harvilla. We reveal those embarrassing times we were dead wrong about an iconic artist… and one of us may have put some of those earlier thoughts in print! This fun conversation touches on the performative aspects of hate, evolving musical taste, and even some legendary artists with some rough live shows.
Music heard in this episode: Mike Watt - “Against the ‘70s (feat. Eddie Vedder)”, Guster - “Homecoming King (Meow Mix)”
Send us your thoughts at NeverMusicPod@gmail.com
Nevermind the Music is part of The Lorehounds Network. Join the Nevermind the Music Discord channel by visiting thelorehounds.com
Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
00:00 --> 00:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank God I did because he turned out not to be a good guy, according to that long song that she wrote, you know.
00:04 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a very long song about good guy here.
00:08 --> 00:10 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a great song, but it doesn't turn out well for him.
00:11 --> 00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I use it as a timer in class when I have students.
00:14 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I see that.
00:14 --> 00:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say like, I think we have 10 minutes to work on this.
00:20 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And I put this aside.
00:22 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_03]: When this lady stops disinject, Jill and Hall pencils down, that's amazing.
00:38 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I'm Mark.
00:39 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm Nicole, and this is Nevermind the Music.
00:41 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Who are we going to talk to today, Mark?
00:44 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we are very excited to welcome rock critic, luminary of a generation, Rob Harvillea, from the ringer, from previously what village voice, spin, dead spin, which is allegedly separate.
01:00 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And most importantly, to the most 21st century of mediums, the 60 songs that explained the 90s podcast and its child, the 2000s.
01:10 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_02]: So welcome, Rob.
01:12 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me.
01:13 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thrilled to be here.
01:14 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a luminary of a generation is a new one.
01:18 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It's quite a quite a geriatric generation at this point.
01:24 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like, but it's I'll take it, man.
01:26 --> 01:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited.
01:27 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a big get for us to be honest.
01:31 --> 01:32 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a big get for me, man.
01:32 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's thanks so much for having me.
01:35 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Nicole's just excited because Nicole and I are about the same age, but we're Cuspi gen X.
01:40 --> 01:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So like a podcast about the, like we're, I identify as millennial.
01:43 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_02]: She identifies as gen X.
01:45 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So anybody that's an expert on the 90s, just like makes her feel more gen X.
01:49 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_02]: She feels more at home.
01:50 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Like in this was 60 songs that made the 2010s, you'd feel like out of, out of place or whatever.
01:55 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So.
01:56 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
01:57 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I will have to say that I'm choosing to identify as Gen X.
02:01 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So people code me as like older than I look.
02:05 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a weird vanity thing that I'm playing with.
02:08 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_01]: They say like, oh, I'm Gen X and they're like, oh my gosh.
02:11 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, you look like a young onion.
02:13 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
02:13 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_03]: You glow.
02:14 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
02:15 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a con, but it's working for me.
02:18 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_03]: I respect it.
02:19 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's, that's fantastic, honestly.
02:21 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_02]: But seriously, anybody that doesn't already know Rob's podcast, please listen.
02:24 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you think my seven minute side quest about before we get to the topic, me asking Nicole to rank her top five Boston bands or whatever before I start talking about the system of the down.
02:36 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_02]: If you think that's optopic,
02:39 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Rob, I feel like you've got some episodes where you're 40 minutes deep before you mention the topic at hand.
02:45 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't make any examples, but yeah, it's 30 or 40 minutes.
02:50 --> 02:52 [SPEAKER_03]: The show is more off topic than on topic.
02:53 --> 03:00 [SPEAKER_03]: There is a point you reach where you're so off topic that the off topic becomes the topic, like you reach a Zen point.
03:01 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_03]: We're avoiding the thing becomes the thing, instead of the thing you're avoiding.
03:04 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I'm striving toward, you know, 45 minutes
03:09 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think it's like the most 60 songs episode?
03:12 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if someone was gonna start, what is the one that does that?
03:15 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But also you, you, you could start at the beginning, I guess, right?
03:19 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the beginning is weird because the beginning, that it was the fall of 2020, you know, and the midst of still COVID locked out.
03:27 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And like the episodes are like 10% as long as they currently are.
03:32 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's what's really happened over the course of the five, six years I've been doing the show is that they keep getting longer and longer.
03:39 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_03]: you're at an arrambler and rambler.
03:41 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know if episode one is going to really get you into the spirit of the enterprise as it currently exists.
03:48 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I did Natalie and Brulia's torn.
03:50 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And I talked for like 45 minutes just about my first band.
03:57 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_03]: that my first rock band like the drummer owned in a guana, you know, and we played like Brunswick's old fashioned days and like I just it didn't had nothing to do with Natalie and Brilliant.
04:08 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_03]: We played covers of covers was the points of that rambling and torn, of course, is a cover of a cover of a cover, but it was just it was
04:17 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_03]: We played Parapa the rapper a lot if you know that game that's the last two game kick punch.
04:22 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all in them.
04:22 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's just this it was all side quest.
04:26 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like an oops all side quests episode of the show and so if you want me at maximum off topic.
04:32 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I think torn.
04:34 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I suppose would be the way to go.
04:36 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: there was one episode I listened to.
04:37 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, I love T-Pay.
04:40 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, way to go T-Pay.
04:41 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to check out this episode.
04:42 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, on a walk listening to it, and you're talking about Susan Boyle, and I was like, oh, maybe like, it's the wrong episode or whatever.
04:50 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, I was into it.
04:51 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, that's cool.
04:52 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just listen to the Susan Boyle one.
04:54 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you made like such a smart connection.
04:57 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_01]: but it was a connecting Susan Boyle to T-Pane that was like very inspired of how like what we do when we villainize artists and we we need to hate them for them to surprise us and be successful and once we know that they're good it becomes harder to get behind them and we're just a really great
05:15 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_01]: thesis, connecting Susan Boyle and T. Pain that surprised me, delightfully off-topic to the point that I thought I clicked their own episodes, listen to, but it's super into it.
05:25 --> 05:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you.
05:26 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_03]: That's very kind of it.
05:27 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_03]: That was a really fun one.
05:28 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And yes, that is what I aspire to is that, am I, did I click on the wrong episode exactly the sentiment that I'm trying to inspire in people?
05:37 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Maximum confusion and even unhappiness is really what I'm aiming for.
05:43 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was quite happy, so he failed.
05:45 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, bud.
05:46 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, well, I thought he died.
05:48 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Damn, next time.
05:49 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right.
05:50 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Pre-apology to our listeners and to Rob, because I've listened to some of your episodes like a few years back, and I think your first episode is Alanna's more set, and we just recorded that yesterday, and Nicole listened to it and was like, oh, yeah, we were basically making the same joke.
06:04 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, yeah, I haven't listened to your episode in like three years or
06:12 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_03]: it's public domain Dave Cooley a slander is public.
06:16 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_03]: The joke right themselves right now.
06:18 --> 06:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It was so funny.
06:19 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_01]: When you were like no one wants to imagine Uncle Joey having sex with multiple women.
06:24 --> 06:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like no one wants to imagine that.
06:26 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And like I don't want to.
06:27 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
06:28 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
06:29 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he wouldn't be my first choice.
06:30 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get to the topic at hand, and thanks so much for joining us here, one more plug and one question.
06:37 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got a book, 60 songs that explain the 90s, so people should check that out.
06:41 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think, also, this is actually a lie, that have two questions?
06:45 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think Nicole, we could do a book of this, like a coffee table book, never mind the music with, with unproven psychological facts and misguided music theory.
06:55 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I feel like there's some there's a market and then if it can get me Yeah, you're on my own.
07:01 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It's on Mike.
07:02 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_01]: My mom if it can get me out of my day job.
07:05 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in.
07:06 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sick of it.
07:07 --> 07:14 [SPEAKER_02]: There we go I think you should do it my real question though for you Rob before we plow into our topic here is What does it mean?
07:14 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Slash what is it like experientially to be a rock critic in 2026
07:21 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Not in 1996 or 2006 or 1970, because that's like your Wikipedia article, that's what it says.
07:28 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_02]: It does not say music critic.
07:29 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_02]: It says rock critic.
07:30 --> 07:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe I could go in and create an account and edit that to say music critic.
07:34 --> 07:35 [SPEAKER_02]: But what does it mean?
07:35 --> 07:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Are we talking about a lot of the new Imagine Dragons albums and stuff?
07:39 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what?
07:40 --> 07:42 [SPEAKER_03]: I have a question in response to your question.
07:42 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I have a Wikipedia page.
07:43 --> 07:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I look at that.
07:44 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not aware of that.
07:45 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_03]: This is incredibly exciting.
07:47 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I was trying to look up like what previous publications you worked for, and somebody created a Wikipedia page that has not been taken down because of lack of notoriety, like my college Occupella group, somebody created a Wikipedia page and it lasted about six weeks before it got flagged and it was notable.
08:05 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_03]: That is not a notorious Occupella group.
08:08 --> 08:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Those guys are not famous enough to warrant this guy.
08:12 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_03]: This is very exciting.
08:13 --> 08:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually pretty impressive.
08:15 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I was like, oh man, I better prep.
08:18 --> 08:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I better do stuff to get ready for this because you're heavy hit or I feel like it's rock critic.
08:23 --> 08:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I just can't resist it, not know this.
08:26 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_03]: it's quite the turn now I gotta I'll be right back guys I gotta go read this before we go any further I okay I do think there is a divide a spiritual divide between rock critic in music critic right like Bob Chris Gow of course the Dean of American rock critics you know and and the the best you know to ever do it
08:46 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that he has a spiel about how rock critic is the right way to put it even though obviously often, you know, maybe even usually you're not talking about rock, you know, like rock critic stands in for all other types of music, even pop, even jazz.
09:02 --> 09:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, not jazz, maybe, but
09:04 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_03]: rock critic is the right way to put it even if the music you're talking about is not rock definitionally, you know, like I think it might just be down to rock critics sounds way cooler than music critic, you know, it sounds a little snoody
09:20 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_03]: immediately, which I think is a good place from which to begin your career in rock criticism, right?
09:26 --> 09:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's there's an elitist, you know, the faux badass overtone to rock critic versus music critic that I think is the sort of vibe that critics generally try to exude.
09:38 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_02]: On the note of being snooty, our topic today, I would say,
09:44 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_02]: is about where that leads us.
09:46 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I thought would be a fun conversation to have is the time that somebody is just dead wrong about music.
09:54 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_02]: They changed their mind.
09:55 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_02]: They notably, I would say, like, you think somebody sucks.
09:59 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So you hate music or perhaps you write an article denouncing an album as bad.
10:04 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, years later, you realize you were wrong.
10:07 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe, maybe more rarely, you think something is awesome and then realize 10 years later, actually it was awful.
10:13 --> 10:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that would be a fun conversation where we could humiliate ourselves with our incorrect opinions from years past, performatively perhaps.
10:22 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I think the snootyness of a rock critic sets you up for that trap in a way that maybe a music critic would be immune to the temptations of overly extravagant negativity or positivity with a record or something.
10:39 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So,
10:40 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
10:41 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think rock critic puts you in the mind of Lester Bangs or somebody like that, right?
10:46 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Where it like, or like Grio Marquez, you know, the Bob Dylan, what is this shit review?
10:52 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I forgot which album that was.
10:54 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, rock, central to rock criticism is the idea of of shitting on stuff and hating stuff.
10:59 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you think it's even rolling stone.
11:02 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I always think of almost famous when they're like, this guy's from Rolling Stone.
11:06 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_03]: These are the guys who trashed every black Sabbath album, you know, every Led Zeppelin album.
11:11 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the central to the idea, the ethos of being a rock critic is being a hater.
11:18 --> 11:23 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, some of, if not most of the time, that's the job hypothetically.
11:23 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It's an important part of the job, hating things.
11:27 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_02]: But then in retrospect, loving them, maybe, right?
11:29 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's right.
11:30 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And then realizing that you were a knucklehead, yes.
11:33 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like Nicole hopefully you came to the table with a few examples.
11:38 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a few examples.
11:40 --> 11:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm personally eliminating stuff that I never even really gave a fair shake.
11:44 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So think about ladies, elementary school me, hating with all the other boys in my class, new kids on the block.
11:50 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Did I ever even really hear new kids on the block or did I just hear the weird alperity of you got the right stuff.
11:58 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_03]: So my stuff in the middle of the Oreo.
12:01 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
12:01 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's not know.
12:02 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty.
12:03 --> 12:06 [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that I never even gave it a chance.
12:06 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't.
12:07 --> 12:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I, they're not on my list, right?
12:10 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can just jump in Mark and say, it is so funny to me that you didn't like new kids on the block because you thought it would make you look like a loser and your counter example was like, but it wasn't like where it was obviously worth deep diving into as a middle schooler.
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's
12:32 --> 12:44 [SPEAKER_02]: cultural justifications, but I think there's a difference between like a 10-year-old boy being into a boy band and a 10-year-old boy being into goofy like, parodies of that boy band, right?
12:44 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Like certainly the nerdy crowd I was in, right?
12:47 --> 12:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're right though, there's
12:49 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the also aquapella see how they came later, but like but but I wasn't talking about weird Alex schoolville.
12:56 --> 13:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I will say that I did not wear that on my sleeve That was in the privacy of my home and this idea that like we
13:05 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_01]: keep little pockets of our personality just to ourselves because we're scared of what it could mean to others if we sprays our hands and say I love nukes on the block as a awkward male preteen or for me as like a Led Zeppelin listening bell bottom wearing almost famous watching Penny Lane dream girl like I
13:30 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't listen to Taylor Swift.
13:32 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't.
13:33 --> 13:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like part of the brand I was trying to establish as an adolescent.
13:38 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And even if I liked her or I related to her, it just wasn't touchable for me.
13:43 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's psychological reasons for that.
13:45 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's definitely psychological reasons why as you get older, you give yourself permission to like those things or it becomes accessible to you.
13:54 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But we can start with the psychology of it, or we can start going through some of these bands that we ignored, but maybe shouldn't have.
14:03 --> 14:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So where do you boys want to go?
14:04 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to do first?
14:05 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, are you starting with Taylor Swift?
14:06 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, because... Yeah, I'm about.
14:08 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm about for me.
14:09 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_02]: If I bring up weird all the time, Taylor Swift is...
14:13 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_02]: You bring it up Nicole enough that now I start bringing up Taylor Swift in every episode like you've converted me You and my daughter have thoroughly converted me.
14:20 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, and I didn't like her like her and it wasn't just her music I didn't like her music when it first came out.
14:27 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It definitely was not in the genre of music that I was listening to It was like in in middle school high school.
14:35 --> 14:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like into you know mark like sublime pink Floyd
14:39 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wait, this is like, and justice for all, like that was the flavor a little bit of Bjork, if I was feeling a little like, man, I great, but the idea, yeah, a little bit I slammed it sometimes seem to try that on, but the thing about Taylor Swift, it just was too sugary for me, but Taylor Swift is like a solid decade after you were in a sublime.
15:00 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe, but like even, well, then fast forward to college, right, when I was in
15:07 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: who've hippie jam bands, right, whatever.
15:10 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It just Taylor Swift wasn't it.
15:12 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't until I listened to the Ryan Adams cover of 1989, that I didn't know which one was really in the pocket for me, and like that's where it needed to be.
15:23 --> 15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That I was like, oh, these lyrics are great.
15:25 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, who wrote these songs?
15:27 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what?
15:28 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Then started with midnight, which was the first Taylor Swift album that I listened to when it was released.
15:36 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of backtracked with a fun folklore and I was like oh this is my spot like this is where I live in this chillers with spectrum and it fit with all of those paradigms that I established.
15:46 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like a love of folk music, a love of good lyrics and like introspection.
15:50 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I started seeing that other places and all of her music even when she was much younger and that brought me back all the way to like the debut album and love her and all of that.
15:59 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So,
16:00 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I look back and I think like I wish I gave myself permission to like her when I was coming up because I think it would help to me figure out myself a little bit more sooner but because I think I just relate to her lyrics and relate to her arc generally.
16:16 --> 16:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you guys both did date Jake Dillon Hall though so like that was helpful I think for you to connect with her.
16:22 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I'm not into Jake Gyllenhaal.
16:24 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't, you guys weren't dating and he didn't leave.
16:27 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_02]: We weren't.
16:27 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Sing under your bed.
16:28 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Suit me.
16:29 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But I was kind of busy riding my skateboard around Boston with my dreadlocks.
16:33 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't as tight.
16:34 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Playing a cool.
16:35 --> 16:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Playing a cool.
16:36 --> 16:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
16:37 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank God I did because he turned out not to be a good guy, according to that long song that she wrote, you know.
16:42 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a very long song about good guy here.
16:45 --> 16:48 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a great song, but it doesn't turn out well for him.
16:49 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I use it as a timer in class when I have students.
16:51 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I see that.
16:52 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say like, I'm 10 minutes to work on this.
16:57 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And I put this aside.
16:59 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_03]: when this lady stops dising Jake Gillin Hall pencils down.
17:03 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing for everyone racing hands and share back your ideas.
17:08 --> 17:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I love the idea of writing this.
17:10 --> 17:13 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like the equivalent of writing a really scathing break up letter.
17:14 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And then what three years later going like, but wait, there's more and it's another 16 pages, right?
17:19 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the all too well,
17:21 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_02]: it's like what is that red.
17:23 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that's a 10 years later that she does the more anyways.
17:27 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, wait till you're done.
17:28 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Don mayor.
17:29 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
17:39 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And like how she uses that like bluesy guitar on that song.
17:42 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a car face.
17:43 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And it like, well, it like mirrors John Mayer's treatment too.
17:46 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, it's just an even, it's just so meta.
17:49 --> 17:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like her digs are so heavy.
17:51 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I'm into that.
17:52 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, I'll just, I think that's really cool.
17:55 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
17:56 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I've slept on Taylor Swift.
18:14 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, Rob, you've got one.
18:15 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's interesting, like you, what I hear is sort of mapping out here is the idea of a guilty pleasure, right?
18:22 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Which is not really a thing that people talk about much anymore, but like in the 2000s, you know, like my brother, my younger brother was like, he liked in sync.
18:31 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he liked the battery plays.
18:32 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_03]: He was in it like Indy Rock.
18:34 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, or alternative rocker, whatever, but he also liked this stuff, but he, and he was like proud of it.
18:39 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he wasn't hiding it.
18:40 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh, that's interesting.
18:41 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the idea that you like pop music, but you feel guilty about it.
18:47 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_03]: There's an ironic sort of cast, you know, like you, you make it clear to yourself if not to others that you're slumming it.
18:55 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit and like the Ryan Adams setting aside the Ryan Adams of the Ryan Adams cover of 1989 like that that album did give a certain amount of people certain percentage of people like cover to take Taylor Swift seriously you know to to say like oh this music is actually good capital A capital G right like it's it takes someone of Ryan Adams's stature
19:20 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_03]: to confer enough, you know, greatness and authority on the Taylor Swift's music where you can actually take it seriously and not just dismiss it as vapid guilty pleasure, pop music, right?
19:32 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, these are binaries that we don't really talk about a lot anymore.
19:35 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think, you know, I don't think the concept of a guilty pleasure ever really existed and I think a lot of people now, you know, don't think that it exists and don't talk about it in those terms anymore.
19:46 --> 20:03 [SPEAKER_03]: do we need like Saint Vincent to do a cover of Black Eyed Peas stuff or something like there we go my haunts she would do a great I just a ten minute my haunts with like a giant guitar solo you know covering minute three to minute nine I think would be really fantastic of it
20:03 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So I personally thought of two major examples of this.
20:07 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And the first, I sort of covered it in the podcast is Lincoln Park.
20:11 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
20:12 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So the first Lincoln Park album, hybrid theory, comes out.
20:16 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I think in 2000, and at the time I was writing for a magazine called Alternative Press, which is based in Cleveland,
20:26 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_03]: you know a monthly music magazine i think it started in the eighties is sort of like a smiths nine inch nails like underground post punk industrial kind of thing and as it evolved across the nineties like it gets an alternative rock in the two thousand it did a lot of like warped tour you know my chemical romance paramores type stuff like it's an interesting magazine just the arc
20:48 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_03]: of the music that it covered, but like I'm reviewing the first Lincoln Park album hybrid theory for alternative press in 2000 or 2001 and like I hate it and I just I'm not really as a rock critic, I've always almost felt bad that I don't hate things.
21:07 --> 21:24 [SPEAKER_03]: very often and I do feel bad about that because I do think it's necessary like as a critic as a rock critic like what you hate is just as important as what you love in terms of like sketching the boundaries of your taste right the parameters and what you value and what you don't value
21:24 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, and I think if someone is reading you, you know, and reading you over time, and reading you in a lot of different artists or albums, like they want to know what you like, but also what you don't like, like it's important to do both, and not do too much of either, like if someone just hates everything, performatively, you know, that's no good, but a performatively loving everything is not really valuable either.
21:47 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And I've always been way more on the performatively loving end,
21:51 --> 22:07 [SPEAKER_03]: of things I've always admired people who could write like savage takedowns of like post malone you know or jets or whatever, but I just I'm not that guy, but I for whatever reason was that guy with the first Lincoln park album and it was just like a two it was like a
22:08 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_03]: 200 300 word, you know, sort of capsule review, you know, I didn't have much time or space to like elucidate the logic behind these feelings, but I was just like, this sounds like Britney Spears was the crux of what I did, like, and so it's sort of a two-fer, right?
22:23 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It denigrated this rock band by comparing them to the team pop that was ascended at that time.
22:30 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, these guys aren't cool the same way like Britney Spears or in sync or whatever isn't cool.
22:36 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's like a combination of hate or actions occurring here.
22:41 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Now of course I listen to that record and partly it's because Lincoln Park becomes one
22:49 --> 23:04 [SPEAKER_03]: of the 21st century, you know, and they put out five, six, seven, eight records, you know, they evolve, you know, they try things and like it's it's more to me proof of, you know, what's so important about them is how important they are to their fans, right?
23:04 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you if you read anything about Lincoln Park and if you read anything written by people who
23:16 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Chester Medington especially would write about his struggles, about his ups and his downs and his battles with mental health or whatever you want to call it.
23:24 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a band that really spoke to millions and millions of people who were struggling and he was struggling and they were relating to his struggles and this is clearly a band that's very important to people both musically and sort of psychologically, spiritually.
23:40 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_03]: But there's me in 2000 just meeting like, oops, I did it again.
23:46 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_03]: I did a dramatic reading in my Lincoln Park podcast episode of that entire review and that is what of the most mortifying things that I have had to do professionally among many, many other mortifying professional things that I've done.
24:01 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So everybody go listen to it.
24:02 --> 24:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Lincoln Park, pretty good band.
24:04 --> 24:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But are you?
24:04 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
24:05 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: So like...
24:06 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Aside from their importance, do you actually now think that's a good album, or do you just think, well, they're a good band, the album still blows, right?
24:14 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's a good question.
24:16 --> 24:19 [SPEAKER_03]: I do think I've come around to the album itself.
24:20 --> 24:31 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I understand what it was tried to do and what it was synthesizing, you know, and it was also another thing you could performatively, hey, you know, at the turn of the century, it was rap metal.
24:32 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, you know, and like you think of Limb Biscuit, you think of Woodstock 99, you know, it was easy to just dismiss all of that is like sort of vapid bullshit.
24:40 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And like plenty of it was probably, but I do think that just the sounds and the vibe of that record immediately turned me off, and you know, I just dismiss any music that sounds like this.
24:53 --> 24:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I dismiss any band that has a DJ or a rapper, let alone both.
24:59 --> 24:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
25:00 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like on the Lincoln Park scale, I think I prefer media or the second record like with numb and where I belong, you know, the the minutes to midnight, what is it shadow of the day, you know, like that's a very cold place sounding Lincoln parks on like that's not one of their heavier songs, but that's probably still my favorite like.
25:21 --> 25:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not my favorite Lincoln park album and it's not my favorite album, you know, of all time or of that year or anything like that, but it's just, it's so clear to me in my writing that I just missed this both because it was rap metal, both because it had like pop overtones that allowed me to dismiss it as like teen pop or whatever.
25:41 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I just, I just see so clearly in my writing that I didn't give it a chance, right?
25:47 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting, because we actually did a, we did an episode on num, and we actually talked a lot about like the new vocalists and I was talking about changing key when you have different singers, whatever stuff that doesn't matter for this conversation, but one of the things that seemed to be why that bands survived as all the other new metal fell out of favor was that they had that.
26:09 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Britney Spear, they had the teen pop element when Chester wanted to do the like put my trust in you and it sounds like Justin Timberlake or whatever and right that's how they survived though like that was maybe cause you to derive them in the in the moment, but maybe because I also one of the bands on my list is incubus because
26:32 --> 26:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I am on record on this podcast as a hater of the new metal thing.
26:35 --> 26:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I was not a fan of Cornel and Biscuit or whatever.
26:38 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And like I heard a certain shade of green and new skin like kind of from a friend or on it to be honest like this is just ugh.
26:45 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But then I heard like that science album, I think it's their second record.
26:50 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And my mind was like whoa, there's like jazz rock and all sorts of cool stuff.
26:55 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And within a couple years was a huge fan, but really like, you know, I've talked about this before I went how, like, I don't like it when bands get lumped in with new metal, but the truth is they kind of are I just psychologically don't want them to be lumped in with new metal because I still to this day kind of have a little bit of a distaste for that to some extent it'd be performative though, why do I keep protesting abandon when I decide they're good, they can no longer be new metal is that cognitive decision.
27:24 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's just like validating your, you don't want to say that you were wrong, right, so you like recode it.
27:31 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't have to be wrong.
27:32 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I've grown in my old age and my professorial trying to be an open minded academic that I try not to just totally throw out genres.
27:42 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_02]: You got another one of caller.
27:43 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes Mark, when you and I talk, I think like are we sharing a bit of a brain somewhere?
27:48 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like is there overlap in the venn diagrams of our consciousness?
27:52 --> 28:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're joined by Rob here and some of the things he's saying, I'm like, I think he's part of that venn diagram because on my list was Lincoln Park for like very much of the same reasons.
28:03 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I never wrote an article about Lincoln Park being a bad band, but when we were doing that episode,
28:09 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: that you just mentioned.
28:11 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do it because I, in my head, I lump Lincoln Park with, yes, this performative woodstock 99, even though now I know it wasn't, right?
28:21 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But in my head, it goes to like being in a crowd of men with white tank tops on and like the big jeans and the wallet chains and like just that vibe is not.
28:32 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel safe in that space, like I just don't.
28:36 --> 28:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we started talking about it, Mark and I, and then really started, really listened to it, and really listened to the music, and listened to what the fans were saying for the reasons that you bring up that, you know, Chester's lyrics helped a lot of people, and he was very transparent about mental illness.
28:55 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was kind of a head of his time to be that way.
28:59 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this January, our students are very open and very mental health-forward, but that wasn't the case when Lincoln Park came up and he gave his fans permission to be vulnerable and unlike a fan of that just generally.
29:12 --> 29:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't love Lincoln Park.
29:14 --> 29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I put a wall up around him with corn and limpus kit and other bands that I'm bred to hate.
29:21 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And to your point, Mark, I do think that because there was this really vocalized pop element, it brought in
29:28 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_01]: a different sect of listeners that wasn't the Olympus get corn demographic.
29:34 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that the more I learn about Lincoln Park, the more I find them nuanced and interesting, especially how they pivoted with the new singer and are like actively responding to Chester's death and mourning him and honoring him in a way that still does justice to the integrity of the original band.
29:53 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's really
29:57 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't say I'm going to chill out around my house and put Lincoln Park on, like, I don't think I'm there yet, but I'm now open to the idea of them as like humans and not this like totem of awfulness that existed in my head previously.
30:12 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's another entire example, I'm learning, but I think Lincoln Park would be my second band that I need to give a chance to need to get out of my own way and like accept them.
30:22 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've got a couple really embarrassing ones, I'll start with good.
30:25 --> 30:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll start with the performative one, which is the Beatles.
30:29 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was like a and and I am a songwriter who teaches songwriting classes like my the Beatles are the bees knees like I could listen to revolver just on loop all day long right, but in high school in particular, it must have been around when the anthology came out there was like this boomer nostalgia blast in pop culture that
30:56 --> 31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: you know we just did a Lenny Kravitz episode and we were talking about how like Jimmy Hendrix coded he was with some of his songs there was just this sense of like look how cool the 60s were and our parents were all like yeah the 60s were so cool so much cool right is generation that's right and there was something about how that came off to this
31:15 --> 31:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if this would have been when I was more of a grunge kid or like a scopunk kid.
31:20 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know where in my history this would have happened.
31:22 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But just this sense, like all my friends have been like, yeah, Ringo sucks.
31:26 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_02]: The Beatles suck and in my defense, like they weren't.
31:31 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't seeing ABC news do a little thing about tomorrow never knows, or she said she said, or no, they were like playing.
31:41 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to hold your hand and twist and shout, and that was just like over saturated and I hated it.
31:48 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I was really just making a statement about.
31:50 --> 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: teenage independence.
31:52 --> 32:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, shout out to my friend Krishna, who's just like freshman year of college or whatever, who's just like, oh yeah, Beatles are the best band of all time and he sings exactly like John Lennon does to this day and I was like no way and he just like handed me revolver.
32:06 --> 32:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And I listen to it and till this day, that's probably my favorite album ever.
32:11 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it quite qualifies as I never gave them a chance because I had heard so many of their songs, but I had heard exactly the wrong songs for like a 15-year-old to acknowledge your parents' generation being awesome.
32:24 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know, there's something about it.
32:26 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just so it's hilariously wrong, like the idea that because so many people, not to ramble too long, but so many people...
32:34 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Talk about like growing up with the Beatles on at home and you know, I play it for my kids and things like that and and did when they were really young and I didn't have that at all my parents were more like Tom Petty and the Eagles are like XTC and Madonna that was in the house.
32:48 --> 32:49 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
32:49 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_02]: people assume, oh, you must have grown up with it, but no, it's like I was like 21 when I'm realizing how awesome they would have beatles are.
32:55 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_03]: It's laughable, but I do think it's necessary to, if not reject, then at least be suspicious of the music, the culture, of previous generations, of your parents.
33:08 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I think of the, Mike, what?
33:12 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_03]: 90s song against the 70s that Eddie Veter sang and Eddie Veter is a guy who talked about the who Constantly right, but this is a Mike Watts on that Eddie Veter is saying kids of today should defend themselves against the 70s It's not reality.
33:27 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_03]: It's someone else's sentimentality.
33:29 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It won't work for you.
33:30 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, just having the greatness
33:32 --> 33:40 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, it's parents job and adults job to like tell children that things were better before they were born, right?
33:40 --> 33:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And their culture is superior to teenage culture.
33:43 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Teenage culture is supposed to be alienating and upsetting to their parents.
33:48 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're not supposed to understand it.
33:50 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not for you.
33:51 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_03]: It is for the teenagers.
33:52 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Just as your music was for you when you were a teenager.
33:56 --> 34:13 [SPEAKER_00]: The kids in the day should defend themselves and get to sell them to you The kids in the day should defend themselves and get to sell them to you It's not reality Just someone else is an mentality
34:18 --> 34:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I don't necessarily think that that's bad or performative or anything to be suspicious of the Beatles, to reject like people trying to tell you that they're the greatest.
34:29 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to come to that realization yourself if that's your realization.
34:33 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And you have to do it without it being foisted upon you by adults, right?
34:38 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Like part of teenagerism is like finding your own thing and loving your own thing and hating things that are not your own thing until you listen to them as an adult and they become your thing, right?
34:50 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is just a cyclical thing.
34:53 --> 35:12 [SPEAKER_01]: where we're not, you know, generations aren't supposed to love and valorize the same things necessarily it's it's the circle of life it's a super developmentally appropriate 14 each to do that that's what we're designed to do it like that's what our teachers built to reject what their parents tell them
35:13 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And because they're trying to forge their own path, that's, you know, I'm going to get into some cycle babble.
35:17 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So check out a few more.
35:20 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But Eric Erickson was a social psychologist, a psychologist, a developmental psychology, specifically.
35:27 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said that at certain ages of our life, we go through these crisis moments.
35:31 --> 35:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't mean crisis like a
35:34 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my God, I'm having a crisis.
35:35 --> 35:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He means crisis like it's a decision point.
35:38 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And in adolescence, he talks about this decision point between identity and role confusion that in your teenage years, usually like 12 to 18.
35:48 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Now they're stretching it to like 22 or 24 even.
35:50 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Just like we usually are.
35:52 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to extend adolescence.
35:54 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called emerging adulthood now.
35:56 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not quite there.
35:59 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: you have to try on different versions of yourself to see what sticks and it makes sense that those versions are very performative.
36:08 --> 36:14 [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite question to ask my students is think of you at 16 and what costume were you wearing?
36:15 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I was wearing the bell bottoms and the dreadland, the tie-dye, right?
36:19 --> 36:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I was had my hippie costume.
36:21 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_02]: You were like exactly what I was railing against the
36:26 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, that was projecting.
36:28 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I walked in a room, people could put me in a schema of this is that, this is this type of person.
36:36 --> 36:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Lincoln park vans or maybe corn vans or perhaps Pearl Jam vans, right?
36:41 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We're coded to find other people that are like us because we all wanna be unique and different.
36:47 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But no one wants to stand out, so it's trying to like find that balance between those things that you like try on these different versions of your identity and then you figured out as you grow old and I'm not wearing tie dye and ball bottoms that often anymore, but it's still like part of me right Mark still, you know, he doesn't dress like a nerd anymore, but it's still in there.
37:13 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't wear the vans in the quarter of a quite as much as I did in the 90s.
37:17 --> 37:18 [SPEAKER_02]: listening to no effects or whatever.
37:19 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's like if you can think of an iconic version of you, right?
37:23 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's a piece of it, right?
37:25 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it becomes our building blocks.
37:27 --> 37:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't want it to be what our parents tell us to do.
37:31 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It's our job to reject authority, challenge authority, question everything.
37:36 --> 37:38 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the what you're figuring out as a teenager.
37:38 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's it's super appropriate.
37:40 --> 37:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's adaptive.
37:41 --> 37:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And it helps us become the actualized humans that we were meant to be.
37:46 --> 37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, this idea of fucking against certain bands or rejecting the ideas of the schemas of certain bands.
37:51 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it helps us figure out how we want to orient ourselves in the world.
37:56 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you're grown up, you can let all that go.
37:58 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And say, like, you know, I actually tell ourselves just pretty great.
38:01 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Lincoln packs, like, probably pretty great.
38:03 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I wouldn't have gone to their concert.
38:06 --> 38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: because I would have been scared from various reasons, but I can appreciate it.
38:12 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your high school self?
38:14 --> 38:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what was your costume, Rob, that you performed?
38:18 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's the Grunge saying it was flat.
38:20 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say, quarterback and flannel, right?
38:22 --> 38:25 [SPEAKER_03]: It was the alternative rock revolution.
38:25 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It was Grunge.
38:26 --> 38:29 [SPEAKER_03]: It was Pearl Jam, Nirvana, smashing pumpkins.
38:29 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a good 12 cigarette.
38:32 --> 38:57 [SPEAKER_03]: i did not know because i was like i was an alternative like tough guy but also like like also like a goody two shoes you know not drinking you know not in like a straight edge it wasn't part of like my social conception of myself but i was i was just too scared to resist authority in any actual physical way and so it's just what what what how it manifested for me was just
38:58 --> 39:12 [SPEAKER_03]: wearing the pearl jam, stick man, t-shirt, you know, with a flannel over it and quarter-roy pants, valorizing the idea of Lala Palusa being too scared to actually attend Lala Palusa, that's where I was at.
39:12 --> 39:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But you went home when you listened to Whitney Houston for sure.
39:15 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, totally, yeah, just just rocking.
39:19 --> 39:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm every woman and my bedroom at night, yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally.
39:23 --> 39:33 [SPEAKER_02]: one of the perks to, because I was quite a square in high school too, but one of the perks to being in the like punk crowd is you would just say you were straight edge.
39:33 --> 39:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I had no actual philosophical like I wasn't going to go down that path with minor thread or whatever.
39:41 --> 39:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I could say that with my friends and just be like too scared to go to that party or whatever.
39:46 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm straight.
39:47 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm staying here.
39:48 --> 39:49 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's cool.
39:49 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_03]: It's cool to be this intimate.
39:51 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's exciting.
39:52 --> 39:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Hands just to like project it and feel something.
40:12 --> 40:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But Rob, you said you had two, so you've got Lincoln Park is there another one you're ready to dish on?
40:17 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a very funny one that I just realized this morning.
40:20 --> 40:26 [SPEAKER_03]: In 2008, on Christmas Eve, 2008, I don't know why this happened on Christmas Eve.
40:27 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I was working in the village voice at the time, and I went to see Neil Young at Madison Square Garden.
40:34 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote an entire thing about how sucky, Neil Young's new songs were.
40:40 --> 40:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Neil Young plays for like two and a half hours, right?
40:43 --> 40:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And like it ends with rockin' in the free world.
40:45 --> 40:49 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we caulge her on this day, and he plays a lot of Neil Young, Cortez the Killer.
40:49 --> 40:55 [SPEAKER_03]: He plays a lot of classics, but he also plays a bunch of songs from his then upcoming new album.
40:55 --> 41:00 [SPEAKER_03]: and I just talked for paragraphs and paragraphs about how lousy these songs are.
41:00 --> 41:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I was just again, it's like even at my most rock critic.
41:04 --> 41:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I did not do this often.
41:06 --> 41:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I just I did not dislike things performatively or otherwise, you know, like I'm just
41:12 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have that gene.
41:14 --> 41:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I think it's important.
41:15 --> 41:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's sort of a detriment of my, you know, that I'm not able to more often articulate things that I don't like, you know, like, as I, again, I think that's important.
41:24 --> 41:29 [SPEAKER_03]: But for whatever reason, I just looked it up that it's the kneeling album, fork in the road.
41:30 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_03]: which came out in 2009, you know, and it's just, it's a bunch of nearly young songs about cars, basically, and I'm driving on the open highway and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
41:40 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And I just, I just gas on a great length about how sucky these songs, or, and I remember like, nearly young fans were very angry at me.
41:50 --> 41:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think justifiably so, and it's like, it's,
41:53 --> 42:20 [SPEAKER_03]: It's less a case now of me being like, oh yeah, that Neil Young album is totally awesome, you know, it's I think what I fault here is not understanding that like Neil Young is made 400 albums, right, and like, and like a ton of those are acknowledged like ultra classics, you know, in the harvest, you know, after the gold rush, you know, whatever your personal favorite Neil is, but like the volume of Neil.
42:21 --> 42:35 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, the albums that aren't as universally beloved, you know, the stuff that befuddles you, the stuff that you just don't get into at all or you don't understand, like that's as important to Neil Young as the greatest of Neil Young, right?
42:35 --> 42:48 [SPEAKER_03]: The Neil Young, you know, like all the stuff about him, you know, fighting with his label and like putting out albums that didn't sound like him, you know, in part, you know, in a large part to antagonize his label, you know, the pugnaciousness
42:49 --> 43:03 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, the willingness to be confrontational and unexpected and confusing and baffling, you know, and polarizing, that's as important, you know, to Neil Young's greatness as Neil Young's like actual greatness, you know what I mean?
43:03 --> 43:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's just funny to me to read me just bitching about going to see Neil Young at Madison Square Garden, like just how fortunate I am to even be in that room and just complaining about the new stuff.
43:17 --> 43:35 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, like it's it's I sort of laugh at it now and so yeah, it's it's less now that I read that and I'm like oh, I'm sure if I listen to that album, it would be the greatest record of all to like no, but but the point of Neil is that he just keeps going and he does whatever he wants and he does not give a shit when anyone thinks.
43:36 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_03]: about what he's doing.
43:37 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't care what they want.
43:38 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_03]: He cares what he wants, you know, and that means that even like the mid, nearly young stuff or whatever is just as important to his greatness as the great stuff.
43:49 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So how much of that was?
43:51 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_02]: your feelings on the specific fork in the road album and how much of it was just that it's a bunch of new songs because like we had an episode on Hime, which is a band I love and I saw them this summer and they have a new album, newish album, it's like a year old and it's good and I like it and I've listened to it and their set was almost every song on that album plus a few other ones and we had a conversation like
44:13 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_02]: where do we stand on that just as a concept and so how much of it was just that that like what are you doing with the new stuff when you've got 40 years or whatever of trajectory which isn't you couldn't say that about time in the same way they only have three other albums that's right but but i know you mean i mean yeah it's frustrating when you go to even somebody as high and was that four out
44:33 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, when you go to a concert and you have all these songs, you want to hear that are older, and they play, they date hyper focus.
44:40 --> 44:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I totally get why that's antagonizing to people, no matter how young or old the band is.
44:45 --> 44:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Like in the case of nearly young, again, like if I went and looked at a set list, I would probably see that the new songs comprise like five or six songs in a 25 to 30 songs set.
44:58 --> 45:19 [SPEAKER_03]: right like i i i'm sure that kneel young has played way more obscurity filled sat where he doesn't play any of the hits you know there there's there's nothing there's no cinnamon girl there's nothing that you recognize you know it's all antagonization all the time that was not this at all there were plenty of huge hit songs
45:19 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_03]: you know with just these new songs sprinkled in which makes it extra funny to me that I hyper fixated you know on the tiny percentage of new songs just to complain about them like this was from an album I don't think the album was out yet the fork in the road album comes out sometime in 2009 and this is late 2008 so like he's he's workshopping yeah
45:39 --> 46:00 [SPEAKER_03]: material that maybe he's recorded you know but he hasn't yet released you know nobody knows these songs including me and it's yeah it's just it's very funny to me how you know I get to hear Neil Young sing cowgirl in the sand at Madison Square Garden and I'm complaining you know about all his newish songs about driving
46:01 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I got into a lot of heat with our fan base about some things I said Nelia about Nelia Young on a previous episode in that I saw Nelia Young live and I reflected on that and said that I didn't think he gave it his best performance and I thought he was holding it in.
46:20 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And even like I should have just stopped and I'm taking the note from you, I saw Nelia Young live full stop.
46:27 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_02]: That's like a lot of times.
46:29 --> 46:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:30 --> 46:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:30 --> 46:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I start crossing the ocean.
46:32 --> 46:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Young live.
46:32 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I start for free because I broke into the Boston garden in different worlds, right?
46:37 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Congratulations.
46:38 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
46:39 --> 46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's my first concert.
46:40 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's a wild story.
46:42 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And to say that like, I wish he played like Harvest Moon, up on her that year.
46:47 --> 46:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, It's a bullshit, you know?
46:50 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not entirely bullshit, you know, it's you can appreciate the artist and appreciate that you got to see the artist, but that doesn't mean that you have to love whatever that artist gives you.
47:02 --> 47:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm sure Neil Young was phoning it in, right?
47:05 --> 47:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Like Neil Young, I think even the most hardcore Neil Young's super fan would say that Neil Young has put out bad music, even if just by the standard that he himself,
47:16 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_03]: has set, right?
47:17 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you come to a kneeling on concert with a certain expectation.
47:21 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_03]: If not for the set list, if not for the songs themselves, then just the greatness, you know, in the effort and the intensity that he exudes.
47:28 --> 47:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And if it's not there, if kneeling on stage is not living up to your conception of kneeling.
47:34 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that's not your problem, you know, that's not your failing.
47:38 --> 47:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It very well, maybe his failing, you know, a big shoes to fill in all that.
47:42 --> 47:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't want to go too far down the road of saying that like all criticism is performative and all criticism over time will be proven wrong.
47:53 --> 47:58 [SPEAKER_03]: You will regret anything negative you say about anybody ever, like from a musical perspective.
47:58 --> 48:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Because like it's, it's some music sucks.
48:01 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, according to you, in your opinion, but like your opinion is important, and if you think it's us, then maybe you're really sucks, and maybe you'll always think it sucks, and you're absolutely justified in feeling that just as you're absolutely justified in being moderately disappointed in nearly all.
48:18 --> 48:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we put like this halo around artists that we love, like I'll just call it the halo effect, well named.
48:24 --> 48:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, if you love them, you love all of them.
48:27 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you love them, they can't put bad music.
48:29 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And we see this with Taylor Swift, that true Taylor Swift fans.
48:33 --> 48:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Even the bad songs are like, how dare you?
48:36 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_01]: How dare you say it's bad?
48:37 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_01]: How dare you give her a bad review?
48:39 --> 48:40 [SPEAKER_01]: She's an icon.
48:41 --> 48:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard for us to be objective about people we love and me especially musicians and artists that we love because if we love them we have to love all of them because it's all part of the capital A art that they're making.
48:55 --> 48:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of acts that I've seen that I'm like I love them.
48:59 --> 49:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I love their music.
49:00 --> 49:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I was so excited to see them.
49:01 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I get in front of them and I'm like, oh, and I'm not going to do the names, Bob Dylan.
49:07 --> 49:08 [SPEAKER_01]: James Brown.
49:08 --> 49:11 [SPEAKER_03]: James Brown is a great example of this.
49:11 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Dylan is a very, you know, and tickets are like $12 and I don't understand.
49:16 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand.
49:17 --> 49:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I saw him a month ago.
49:18 --> 49:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I saw him a month ago and he was great, you know, but he played all of the on the watch tower and then, you know, a couple dozen much less known Bob Dylan.
49:29 --> 49:39 [SPEAKER_03]: So, not obscurities, but Bob Dylan is the gut, you know, all the way back to Judas, you know, Bob Dylan is the patron saint of not giving you what you want.
49:39 --> 49:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am going to tell you like that.
49:41 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Because he's giving you what you mean.
49:42 --> 49:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course you love that.
49:44 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_03]: But you don't have to be there.
49:46 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
49:46 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a badass thing, but that doesn't mean that you will enjoy that experience in real time.
49:51 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Take your medicine.
49:52 --> 49:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Appreciate it.
49:54 --> 49:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Take your medicine.
49:55 --> 49:55 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
49:56 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_01]: James Brown was another one and that will stop.
49:58 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_01]: But he like flipped the cape off of him and then just sat in a chair and some white lady saying all the songs for him, which is fine.
50:05 --> 50:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a great, it was like, well, fun time.
50:08 --> 50:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, I don't have as much of a spiritual connection to James Brown as I feel with Bob Dylan, like he was my god in high school, you know, seeing live life is really there.
50:18 --> 50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh,
50:19 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think you can tell you just wanted to go home and that's a drag, you know, but I get it.
50:24 --> 50:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even want to.
50:25 --> 50:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:26 --> 50:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
50:26 --> 50:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've got one more that is kind of embarrassing, and that is radiohead.
50:33 --> 50:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but specifically like I liked, I had never heard all of the bends at this point, right?
50:39 --> 50:42 [SPEAKER_02]: But I loved like high and dry and fake flat.
50:42 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that stuff.
50:43 --> 50:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Plenty and paranoia de Android comes out, karma police, paranoia de Android, baffling to me.
50:52 --> 50:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love that song.
50:54 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Back then, utterly baffling to me.
50:57 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Karma police?
50:58 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing song utterly boring to me.
51:01 --> 51:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is what 97 so I'm 15.
51:05 --> 51:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like That's not even punk me.
51:08 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_02]: That's like grunge me
51:11 --> 51:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And also like there's friends of mine that were just so into okay computer that I did do not I went till probably sophomore year of college I am a music major future professional composer before I finally listened to that album and of course I've like you know the moment the first two chords of like let down I'm like okay crap what have I been missing right and
51:41 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Just like, you know, I wasn't writing, I didn't have a platform to share my views, but amongst my friends, I already had, I already had what they were good back when they did, you know, creep or whatever, like the idea that that's, but it wasn't just performative, it was actually like, I wasn't ready for any level of complexity like I was,
52:04 --> 52:21 [SPEAKER_02]: which is weird because my favorite soundgarden album not I'm not saying the best but my favorite soundgarden album which would have been I think a year before was down on the upside which is basically progress and so very much so I had the capacity for it but I didn't know I had the capacity for it and so like again like paranoid android and just like
52:22 --> 52:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Is this another song now?
52:24 --> 52:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what is going on?
52:25 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously I come back to that album so often now and so Maybe it's performative now for me to share that as a way of like showing my growth as a human But that one.
52:37 --> 52:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not proud of to say the least
52:40 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_02]: You came to it when you were ready.
52:41 --> 52:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's not a pride or shame thing.
52:43 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_03]: It came to me and radiohead is a band.
52:46 --> 52:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Radiohead is like, you know, the David Foster Wallace thing of like, you're so suspicious of the cult and of what a radiohead guy, you know, trademark seemed to be in the late 90s and beyond, especially kiday time, right?
52:59 --> 53:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's just,
53:00 --> 53:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody praising something will naturally make you suspicious of that praise and if you are still searching for your idealized self and you're trying on costumes, you know, being an opposition to the thing that even all your friends seem to be into is a very enticing identity.
53:18 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to imagine.
53:19 --> 53:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's backlash, right?
53:21 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Like radioite is a band so revered from
53:30 --> 53:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for me it was like, even as I was growing into a pretentious grad student or whatever in music I was like, I felt like they were as guys pretentious and so it was really it was the in rainbows like, ah, take it for 10 cents kind of like that broke that.
53:48 --> 53:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And so at that point, what is that, like, that's late odds, right?
53:52 --> 53:54 [SPEAKER_03]: When I'm finally like, all right, oh, seven, I think.
53:54 --> 53:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, seven or oh, wait, did you pay 10 cents?
53:57 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_03]: That's very funny if you pay 10 cents, right?
53:59 --> 54:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Dude, I'm probably just kidding.
54:00 --> 54:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to remember, I may have mastered it.
54:03 --> 54:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is the word.
54:04 --> 54:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there we go.
54:06 --> 54:07 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the word thing.
54:07 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I did using to legally Download for free something to illegally download it on principle.
54:14 --> 54:15 [SPEAKER_03]: I respect that immensely.
54:15 --> 54:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm trying to think 2007 if that would have still been What I was not napped or do now.
54:20 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe oink or
54:22 --> 54:28 [SPEAKER_02]: or because I don't know, like I, because I'm maybe it was just dressingally late.
54:28 --> 54:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, you know, I thought about this.
54:30 --> 54:31 [SPEAKER_02]: It'll podcast.
54:32 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_02]: We recorded recently a podcast Nicole and I.
54:37 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_02]: What were we talking about where you were saying, oh, cognitive dissonance, which episode was that where you were like, do you ever do bad things and you know they're bad?
54:43 --> 54:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was listening back and I was like,
54:46 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: literally.
54:47 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
54:47 --> 54:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know not talk about all the piracy that I did.
54:50 --> 54:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I am now a legal consumer of music, but I was pretty late in the golden age of piracy.
54:57 --> 55:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I was still like using file sharing stuff and just justifying it as well.
55:02 --> 55:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I like too much music and I can't afford it.
55:04 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm in a download like and I can remember like downloading a guster album and having it just be cats meowing on loop.
55:37 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll try to find a clip one of their albums like I downloaded it and it was not the album they had they had Trojan Horst some kind of meow meow meow kind of thing so yeah the I was like thank God for like
55:53 --> 56:02 [SPEAKER_02]: the really, and as a guy in a band, the terrible pay system of streaming, to at least give me a way out of my cycle of theft.
56:03 --> 56:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Right?
56:03 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, okay, well, pay a subscription now.
56:05 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And be able to listen to all the music.
56:06 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Your life of crime.
56:07 --> 56:13 [SPEAKER_02]: My life of crime, even though we're now in a music industry, where it's impossible to make any money, that's right.
56:13 --> 56:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It kept me, it kept me out of jail for it now.
56:16 --> 56:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
56:16 --> 56:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So there we go.
56:18 --> 56:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Any other parting thoughts on this?
56:20 --> 56:21 [SPEAKER_02]: This has been a fun conversation.
56:22 --> 56:43 [SPEAKER_01]: the one thing we didn't talk about and I think it's a not a conversation for today is the in group outgrouping around country music when people say like people will often say like what do you listen to all well listen to anything except country rap and country that's what you talk about rap and country in high school or like early high school and uh everything but rap and country you know
56:43 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and it kind of like signals to the other person.
56:46 --> 56:49 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, you're cool and like cool for that.
56:49 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, an intellectual and like also kind of like politically signals to a little bit now when you say stuff like that.
56:57 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_01]: We just really interesting.
56:59 --> 57:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, those are conversations.
57:01 --> 57:02 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to dive into that today.
57:02 --> 57:04 [SPEAKER_01]: This has been lovely.
57:04 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not go there.
57:07 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting to like think of that.
57:10 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
57:10 --> 57:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Rob Facebook so much for coming on.
57:13 --> 57:21 [SPEAKER_02]: 60 songs is on a break for a couple months, but people can check out your book, anything else where can people follow you, what do you want to plug?
57:22 --> 57:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, God.
57:22 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm on social media to my detriment, right?
57:25 --> 57:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's terrifying.
57:26 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can find me on blue sky and Instagram and like, gradually, not really, but kind of sort of, yeah, Twitter.
57:34 --> 57:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's all awful, right?
57:35 --> 57:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you can just, you can find me at Target.
57:38 --> 57:39 [SPEAKER_03]: That's where you can find me.
57:39 --> 57:41 [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me at Croger.
57:41 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me at various parks.
57:44 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me at the library.
57:47 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_03]: That's where you can really find me.
57:48 --> 57:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
57:49 --> 57:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Great.
57:49 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_03]: the more you know.
57:50 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But like don't go look for him at the library.
57:52 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That's weird, guys.
57:53 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_01]: That's yeah, that would be weird.
57:56 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_03]: You could not get me knowingly and then go about your business.
57:59 --> 58:03 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, well, I'm looking at pig and elephant books with my daughter at the library.
58:03 --> 58:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for giving me my privacy.
58:15 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Nevermind the music is hosted by Nicole Batcher and hosted and produced by Mark Poppony.
58:22 --> 58:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You can email us at nevermusicquaditchmail.com and give us a follow on social media.
58:29 --> 58:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Nevermind the music is also part of the Laura Hounds Network.
58:32 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Please join the conversation on their Discord server.
58:36 --> 58:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.