#45 - The Wolfman (2010)

[00:00:00] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff.

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[00:01:44] Just a word of praise to the Barovian Broadcast Network. Make sure you check in with the Lorehounds for their coverage of Ahsoka. Do a search for the Lorehounds wherever you search for podcasts. Alright, without further ado, here to talk about the Wolfman comic Steve Osburn.

[00:02:04] Steve, how do you feel about old werewolves? Well, you don't age out, right? I don't know. I don't know how it works. If anybody's been following the cocoons of horror and properly howered trajectory, we're no strangers to old werewolves.

[00:02:25] I mean, there's Michael J. Fox's father who also takes Jason Bateman, his nephew, to college. He's not a young werewolf by any stretch. Very paternal werewolf. He's a young man who was settled in. And then, of course, Jack Nicholson was a late blooming, late adopter of lycanthropy.

[00:02:47] So yeah, right? So if the lycan is old but becomes a werewolf later in life, he's still kind of like a pup of a werewolf, right? Yeah, he's a pup of a werewolf, but an elder of a man. So I like the old werewolf trope.

[00:03:12] Kind of like how you know, we kind of got into our, when you weren't as late into your academic career as I was saying in my comedy career. So I figured myself a young comic but an old regular person.

[00:03:24] Well, I mean, there were hints of lycanthropy throughout your life, I think. Well, sure. Right? I mean, we all have little moments, right? Like even Michael J. Fox and Teen Wolf, it didn't happen immediately. It didn't take right away.

[00:03:41] So I don't know the rules about old werewolves. It feels like I know with vampires, maybe the older is better. According to some myths, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Oh, I don't know.

[00:03:57] Yeah, I think according to some iterations of that story older vampires are stronger. But according to the movie that we just watched, I think the older you become as a werewolf, the worse you are as an actor. I do want to talk about Anthony Hopkins.

[00:04:18] Yeah, I do too, but I don't know if he wants us to. I feel like Anthony Hopkins is low key a very prominent horror actor. Like when I think of famous horror actors, I think Jamie Lee Curtis, there's a number of these actors that come to mind.

[00:04:43] Right, but they're not necessarily like they don't stay there necessarily. Right. Yeah, I mean Christopher Lee famously. Okay, there you go. Yeah, perfect. So but Anthony Hopkins, you know, I think that when you think of Anthony Hopkins,

[00:04:59] like Bella Lagoste wasn't in like a slapstick comedy that I'm aware of. You didn't see a sitcom. Bella and the goon. Exactly. Yeah. He plays both characters. He plays his much slower younger brother.

[00:05:19] He's a gringo brother, he's a goon and he's kind of a slob and he's a sports writer. Exactly. Yeah, it was kind of like the odd couple except it still had some horror elements to it. Bella Lagoste was just Bella Lagoste. Yeah, he plays himself famously.

[00:05:34] Yeah, I don't normally think of Anthony Hopkins in like the pantheon of horror actors, but if you think about it, it might be worth reconsidering, right? What would you say is his like most iconic role? Hannibal Lecter, right? Right.

[00:05:51] Yeah, and that's also a later in life one, right? So and that gets more horrific as the sequels, you know, roll out and... He's in a movie where they have to fight a killer bear. He's in a movie where they have to fight a killer bear. He's also...

[00:06:10] He's Van Helsing. Yeah, he's Van Helsing. And Coppola's Dracula. One of my earlier memories of Anthony Hopkins is in the like the horror-ish thriller Magic, where he's a schizophrenic friend Twiliquist, which sounds amazing when I say it out loud. I don't know if Westworld is a horror?

[00:06:37] It's more of like a hard sci-fi? Definitely science fiction. It's hard sci-fi. I think I would say that probably that it probably lends itself maybe more to the sci-fi horror than as it goes on, right? Yeah, there are definitely horrific elements of that.

[00:06:51] So anyway, I think that Anthony Hopkins is... Oh, let's not forget his work as C.S. Lewis, which is... Terrifying. Which is terrifying. I think we've been sleeping on Anthony Hopkins and not only is he a prominent horror actor,

[00:07:11] he really acts like a prominent horror actor in this film. He sure does. He's really settling in, isn't he? It's so funny because like this movie... We've got a lot to talk about, I think, personally.

[00:07:54] This movie, this is my second watch in the whole time, like whether it was performance, whether it was effects, whether it was just any part of the movie, I would posit periodically and just ask myself, is this good? Was that good?

[00:08:12] I feel like there are certain things that I forgive, like even if the acting's bad. And you know, classic sci-fi is kind of one of those things. And just give me any werewolf movie. I rewatched a little bit of the 1942 Wolfman for this in preparation. Long Chaney.

[00:08:37] Yeah, have you seen this? I've never seen it. One of my favorite scenes is when he's just about to turn into a werewolf for the first time. And he takes off his sock and looks at his foot and it's just getting hairier and hairier.

[00:08:55] And he pumps his fist like, ah, dang it. Oh, Karni Sarnit. The fist pump was just beautiful. That makes me want in a werewolf movie what we used to get in every body changing movie, whether it was big or vice versa, like Father Like A Son.

[00:09:13] The scene where he starts turning the werewolf and the first thing he does is look into his underwear. Why would that would absolutely be my first look, right? I think that would be a pretty early, like as soon as I saw like a fingernail girl,

[00:09:25] oh man, like that would have been perfect in Teen Wolf. Maybe more in Teen Wolf 2 because Teen Wolf 2 just needed something. Maybe I'd be afraid. Maybe you know that you'd have the whole lipstick happening down there. Oh, could you imagine? No, it's terrifying.

[00:09:42] And did you know that like they can actually like a dog's erection can get stuck and you have to manually put it back in otherwise it'll dry out? Like anywhere? Is it like one of these little rubber sticky things that goes to the window?

[00:09:59] Well, no, like it'll stay, it'll lock, it'll go into a locked position. Honey, the dog's penis is stuck on the bathroom floor again. Well, no, I'm talking like stuck out, like it's just out. Like he just walks around and it's just out. I'm happy for the clarification.

[00:10:16] You know when you have like maybe not a real expensive tripod and you just sort of extend it and then that little ball bearing thing goes and connects through the hole and then now that's how it's locked into place? Like I think that's kind of what happens.

[00:10:29] Like a broken umbrella? You, when I say you, I mean my wife typically I've never done this but you take a little ice I believe and you sort of ice the area and then just sort of get it back in there. You don't talk to about baseball?

[00:10:43] Hey Henley, you think Shohei Otani is going to come to the Giants? That's a joke just for us. Because it's just, once it's out man, it's out, it's got a mind of its own. I want to see that in a warble movie.

[00:10:59] I want to see Singh having to put Anthony Hopkins' stuck lipstick back in the case. All right. So what's your feeling about Benicio del Toro? So it's funny, I mean, I don't have a ton of Benicio del Toro viewing I don't think.

[00:11:19] I mean, famous I think I was introduced to them in the usual suspects. Yeah, and I'm trying to think of like, I know I've seen him of course in Star Wars one of the newer ones. Well he was also in the Marvel Universe. Was he?

[00:11:40] Yeah, he was a collector. Right, right, right. Okay, yeah now I got it. And yeah, so he's one of those guys like it goes back to my previous comment like Benicio del Toro is a guy that I often pause and go, is he good?

[00:11:53] He was in something called Golden Balls. That seems like something I'd watch. Beer and Loathing in Las Vegas never saw it. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess I have more experience with him than I get myself. Snatch. He was in Sin City.

[00:12:11] So it's okay so I think it's worth discussing. So the universal monster remakes have been sort of this ongoing effort that hasn't quite taken. And I think post the Wolfman like more modernly they've, they really thought they were going to create like an Avengers type shared universe.

[00:12:36] Right so they had, I remember there was, I forget what magazine it was, I did a whole spread on all the like meet your like new universal monsters right and you have like Tom Cruise and Russell Crowe and you've got,

[00:12:48] gosh I forgot, I think Javier Bardem and so like it was like they were all in. Couldn't make this happen. When was this?

[00:12:57] It was a few years ago because I with the mummy with Tom Cruise is the mummy I think was supposed to be the first one that really launched this. And, and so have you seen the mummy with Tom Cruise? No, I haven't. Man, it is rancid.

[00:13:17] And Russell Crowe plays Dr. Jueckl in a little sort of like a Nick Fury kind of cameo to sort of start linking the universe is right. And the mummy was such a colossal failure that it killed the entire effort. Wow. To do this universal monster thing.

[00:13:36] And which is, which is a bummer.

[00:13:40] So I think there's, there's something to be learned from this right and so I know the Wolfman is very much the universal remake it's you know it's I don't I don't know if this goes because it's like 2010 I think right so I don't think that this was when they were necessarily considering that but I think they were definitely on the track of of of let's let's let's make these

[00:14:02] you know and then I don't think it was the shared universe concept necessarily but I think it was like hey let's let's reboot all of these. And again Wolfman didn't do very well. Did they have dinero for Frankenstein?

[00:14:14] See, I want that I want you to give me all of those bring dinero back.

[00:14:20] You know, bring Benny show back what do I care have Anthony Hopkins have to play Van Helsing and then been issued a tour is like well whatever you might have I guess he's dead to whatever do it everyone.

[00:14:31] It's a Old Men is Dracula who would you want is Dracula.

[00:14:36] Well so now that brings up a big, a big issue right when we start talking about that rebooting these like what Tom Cruise isn't the mummy right like unfortunately which would have been great and the mummy is like not like the mummy from the universal days where it was just this you know,

[00:14:54] bandaged corpse slowly making its way around I don't know what the mummy I'm assuming a cursed I don't know. Anyway, it just did its thing, but like this one is like there's this very supernatural very like hyper remake of Brandon Fraser's the mummy which to me was pretty entertaining.

[00:15:11] This was just very different and not regarded so I think that might have been part of the problem is that when you know having Tom Cruise as the hero is different than having like a big name as the monster to me I think that might be more did you

[00:15:25] not hear that Brandon Fraser is going to redo the mummy but as his character in the whale called the tummy. I don't know if I would like that. I mean, All right, so.

[00:15:45] So it's an interesting move and I guess I guess when you show Del Toro in 2010 had some heat on him right you know I don't know when Sicario came out but but it but it's what I was think I was trying to think what's his best movie and of course I think it is

[00:15:59] and so it's a but then this movie off some right so it's like I think one of the things that's interesting about

[00:16:07] monster movies is sort of the continuation of the like this was definitely a standalone right this is not going to be a shared universe like I don't even know what the shared universe would do like does is it become the monster

[00:16:20] squad is that the only way that the end makes sense. Well, I was just gonna say this sounds like they're trying to remake the monster squad. Which do it. You know, that's the approach, you know build towards like have monster squad be what you're building towards right.

[00:16:37] Because I mean in your Dracula so the issue going like now we're on a conversation to Dracula is like we have we have any vampire movies are there right. I like vampire movies typically, but there's not. I don't have as much interaction with Dracula as I do vampires.

[00:16:51] Yeah, you know I mean obviously there's Bram Stoker's Dracula I watched much of the BBC mini series Dracula. Oh, I love that. That was great. It's great. But and then the Dracula from Monster Squad but other than that like I don't know that I have much actual Dracula.

[00:17:09] So they just came out with a movie and it was about the. The voyage right the voyage of the ship that's transporting them. That's right and I think it's called the Dementor or something like that. Dementor I think is sort of.

[00:17:25] Oh, and then wasn't was Renfield also was Nicholas Cage Dracula and that or was he just a vampire. That's a good question. It must have been Dracula because otherwise wouldn't be called Renfield. All right, sorry. That'd be great if it was just run.

[00:17:37] Yeah, but they couldn't get Dracula. Couldn't get the rights to the name Dracula. So back to the Wolfman. I do feel like there's something about the old monster and the new monster. And this kind of the trope or something that I'm just always excited about.

[00:18:05] This guy's been a this guy's been a werewolf for 30 years. And this other guy's been a werewolf for two minutes. Let's watch him fight. Right. I mean that gets me every time very unspectacular fashion.

[00:18:24] My daughter watched just the last 30 minutes of this and she's like, so that's it. Yeah, I'm trying to explain to that me like, like, no, no, it was more exciting beforehand. No, it sure was not. I'm going to answer who this movie is for. Not going to ask.

[00:18:45] I'm just going to answer. I think this is for classic horror fans that have affection for the original movie. That's a great. I'm glad you brought that up because I thought about that, right? Because because that's not me. I was not. I was not.

[00:19:03] I mean, I was never in my wheelhouse like where we'll move from 1942 was was never going to, you know, do it for me. So and I think that this this really kind of unfolds that story. I mean, even down to the gypsies and whatnot.

[00:19:21] Well, it yeah, it but it does beg the question, right? If you're a fan of that, are you alive? And if you are alive, do you want to see a very gory version of that? And I that's where I think this movie might be swinging and missing. Right?

[00:19:43] I think it's trying to appeal to something in a way that doesn't appeal to that thing. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think I think. And I think but here's the thing is I do believe that at the core of those

[00:19:54] those horror films back back when in the 40s, they for divide by God is that they were trying to be as as dark and sinister as they could get away with. Right. But they didn't have effects. They couldn't go super gory.

[00:20:09] I don't think that they were meant to be necessarily romanticized like they are now. I think that they were kind of just horror films. So well, I think they're on the direction of Gore if they had had the opportunity to.

[00:20:20] I think that they suffered from the same thing that sci-fi did. Like it wasn't considered real filmmaking. Sort of like it was sort of in its you're never going to get the budget that you needed, which means the effects aren't going to be great.

[00:20:35] But in this movie, you've got Rick Baker and I mean, I didn't feel like the effects were what made this film not work. It was it's one of those things. This is an interesting one.

[00:20:50] And when you have a Rick Baker and his practical effects and then you're also combining CGI. Yeah. That's and again, it's 2010. So it might look much different now. Like the CGI, even in 2010, it's definitely flatter. Right?

[00:21:08] Like you know, I mean, it's even though it's really well done, it's still like, you know, it's happening. You can see the seams. But I mean, I'm happy to forgive that. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:19] So I didn't have a necessarily problem with that, but it is one of those things where it's an interesting hybrid. Right. Because you bring in this classic effects artist, which is good.

[00:21:27] And I'm really glad they did it because I think that we had just seen CGI Wolfman, this movies. Like I mean, that happened in like Harry Potter, right? We never see a CGI. Wolfman, I was out on those kinds of scenes. That's right.

[00:21:41] Whereas this, I think that that was a good and it was also felt much more like a tribute to that era by having practical effects with that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:53] That's why I think that this is for people who have affection for the original and they'd love to see Rick Baker take a swing at sort of improving what was, you know, pretty comical about the original, right? Yeah, but at the time not right.

[00:22:11] I mean, that's the thing is like looking we look back through a certain lens. Look, the mechanical shark and jaws terrified your father. I don't know if it was the actual shark that did it. I think it was. It was the music. That's fair.

[00:22:30] But so but but I going back to my point is I think that I think so these are iconic and they didn't know that they were I bet you they didn't know they were making these iconic movie monsters when they were making them like to your point like they may have just been making these these horror films that

[00:22:45] were not super well regarded. I don't know. Maybe they were really popular, but but the but like I grew up as I as a kid I had a Wolfman action figure. I had a Dracula action figure and they looked pretty much like one Cheney Jr.

[00:22:57] And Bella Lugosi because like they became the face of Dracula right like that and the all of those like the creature from the black Lagoon Frankenstein's monster. I mean we think of Frankenstein's monster from the movie more than we think of it from anything else.

[00:23:12] I mean that figure that the image that even today that people are recreating, it's from that film. It's not like that was from something else and that that's an amazing stamp on on culture right I mean that's those are the iconic monsters.

[00:23:27] So what happens is that we have this association that has kind of passed down through generations right and probably less so now.

[00:23:35] Right like I mean if you're going to start talking to young younger people like my kids, they don't have near the affinity for say a Frankenstein or Dracula or a wolf man certainly not like a creature the black Lagoon like they would Freddie Jason Michael Myers.

[00:23:54] Even you know like Chuckie you know what I mean like they've kind of replaced that right and they're becoming these iconic. Yeah I think if you were going to ask my son like you know the scary movies that he's seen you know it. Sure.

[00:24:14] I don't know like Megan was big. He was. Annabelle. Yeah this most recent smile movie really freaked him out.

[00:24:23] But yeah but like if you're talking about like an iconic like figure somebody that you would dress up as or you would have you know something that you would associate with me to be like an in an art or a shirt.

[00:24:34] Like so though so these monsters of sort of so I think this is maybe the issue is that who they think it's appealing to may may not be around as much and it may not matter as much right so if you make a we're going to bring back old school

[00:24:50] Frankenstein Dracula and the wolf man that may be who you're appealing to but the question is who is that right. Yeah.

[00:24:59] Yeah I don't know if and the point I was trying to make is like if it's if that person is really like exists they might look at him as a Roman they might not be going I finally I want to real rip a rip a body part version of the wolf man they may not want that.

[00:25:14] And if they do they might be more interested in like just the werewolf lore as opposed to trying to harken back to this period piece that that shows you know pays homage to to this original type of film I mean I don't I don't I don't

[00:25:28] know what people's thoughts are I don't know that people are like I want I would bella go see was a great Dracula I just wish he ripped out more next and I could see it. You know what I mean.

[00:25:37] Well you know what so you know what it has kind of replaced this for the next generation is Marvel because last Halloween Marvel did a werewolf. Oh Morbius. Yeah. No no no I mean I mean Morbius was the vampire vampire.

[00:25:55] It's on Disney Plus it was called like werewolf by night or something like that. And it was decent.

[00:26:03] It was you know and it was sort of like a black and white to sort of be an homage to classic horror to in the Marvel Universe and you know you've got evil elves you've got you know basically the Hulk is a combination of Frankenstein and the wolf man right

[00:26:24] so I think if you're going to do that if you're going to bring these back these classic horror things it's probably needs to be in the Marvel Universe for the next generation to care about it.

[00:26:37] Yeah because I think most people that have werewolf movies they probably enjoy or at a younger it might be more comedic. That's true.

[00:26:45] You know I think I think a lot of these horror icons have sort of like even if you're talking about runfield runfield is comedy it's a comedy right I mean. I've not seen it and I would love to see it.

[00:27:00] I hear it was really bad but I mean I'll stream it for free. If you give me a Nicholas Cage over acting as Dracula man. Okay. I mean I've seen it be a vampire before was it kisses the vampire very famously eight or a lot of cockroach.

[00:27:14] Why not. I have a serious question about this film. Okay first off I feel like I know a lot about world religions. I did not know that the secret religion was a werewolf fighting religion.

[00:27:34] That was something new to me and I'm glad that I watched this so I could learn that little bit. My question is about the whole gypsy part of this and I did a little dive into sort of you know gypsy culture.

[00:27:51] I found out that in some parts of the world gypsy is an ethnic slur. In some parts of the world it's not. Hopefully they're the ones listening and as you know our audience is 50% Roma and. I just hope they have Wi-Fi wherever they're at at this moment.

[00:28:13] They did this little thing where a number one I don't know if you need the gypsies in this movie. Not sure if that adds to the movie or not but if you're going to bring them in then make them meaningful in some way.

[00:28:28] In this one the matriarch of the community says that this is a story about fate and she also says the one who loves him will have to set him free.

[00:28:43] I don't know if that is a nod to American werewolf in London or if there's some deeper connection to werewolf lore. Where the person who wields the weapon that kills the wolf has to be in love with the werewolf.

[00:29:01] I'm really interested in this. I don't know if you've got any insight here. I just was like but what did that have to do with it and it happened. Nothing exactly it didn't have to they didn't pay off that nearly at all unless.

[00:29:18] Right so that was that was wait so she fell in love with him after she found out that he would just disembowel people. Yeah she did fall in love with him and it was after he disemboweled people.

[00:29:28] My daughter was very funny she said why not why can't she just lock him up one day a month if she loves him so much. She's like she said people did worse to women on their periods back then. That's an excellent point.

[00:29:49] Yeah that that was really really well done so tip of the cap I have a gale. Yeah if she alright so she loves him she has a silver gun with a silver bullet she shoots him she kills him.

[00:30:04] Was that the magic combination like if someone who didn't love him tried to shoot him with a silver bullet would he not have died. Well that's the case and then these guys are going to spend way more time trying to fall in love with this guy.

[00:30:19] They got what 28 29 days out of the month to fall in love with him. Put your grinder app on and go learn a little something. This is the second movie because it was an American War over London where that theme was introduced.

[00:30:36] And not paid off and I feel like if you're listening to this and you got any insight here. I would love to know what the deal is with that because I like werewolf lore.

[00:30:50] I just feel like that is a fascinating it's a fascinating bit of world building that I do not feel like I've seen paid off in a movie. So so yeah we've I think we've discussed like we both enjoy werewolves.

[00:31:11] And I'm kind of up for almost anything that's got a werewolf in it. And like you I think I'll be a little more forgiving along that journey because it's like this is something I enjoy.

[00:31:23] And funny thing for me is I think I really liked werewolves because of the classic werewolf movie that I never saw. But of all the iconic monsters I always thought he looked to the coolest.

[00:31:38] And I think I like that idea that like he's not a monster all the time. Right. That's that's unlike that.

[00:31:46] And unlike the Jekyll and Mr. Hyde who's also not a monster at the time like my understanding Jekyll and Hyde is like he could turn into that monster whenever he you know or it was kind of his own doing right whereas this was this interesting balancing act right.

[00:32:02] There is obviously a similar similar concept of Jekyll and Hyde. But the Jekyll and Hyde kind of is more in the in the sense of like hey this is who you might have lurking inside you already whereas the wolf man was different like it's very primal.

[00:32:15] And so I just always thought that the wolves were cool so I mean and that's why I really wanted to I wanted to and I remember I didn't see all of us on some of Michael Landon's I was a teenage werewolf.

[00:32:31] Which is sort of where Teen Wolf is kind of an unofficial remake. Something buzzing in the background.

[00:32:45] So I've always been I've always enjoyed and I've always enjoyed I think I've enjoyed werewolves because they're, I always liked the Michael Landon teenage werewolf because I always liked the werewolf in a letterman jacket. And I think I like the idea.

[00:33:01] I think that's why I prefer my werewolves in modern times. So you're saying you're okay with the old werewolf, but you would rather have the Teen Wolf. Yeah and I'd rather there but I'd rather than being like in a more modern setting.

[00:33:17] I think I like werewolves in modern setting. Well you might like a show that I enjoy it is called Wolf Like Me. It was just in the last couple years and it's got Josh Gad in it and you can stream it on Peacock. Okay.

[00:33:38] And I thought it was, I thought it was, I mean it's sort of like a werewolf romantic comedy. Gotcha. And it is set in modern Australia. Does that count? Does modern times work if it's in Australia? No, because I don't feel like Australia is modern ever.

[00:33:55] Well it's on the cusp of modernity at least. Hmm. You say so though. You can have to take my word for it. Don't we still send prisoners there? I think that they send prisoners to us. Okay.

[00:34:10] Is there a tweak that you would make to the Wolfman 2010 that you think would improve it? I would make it better. Well, so here's the thing and again this is more than a tweak but it's like there was a lot of so what?

[00:34:32] As the movie goes on right? Like, I mean yeah his dad was like super bad. Like he seems like a bad dad all the time. My dear fellow Irish secretary that the tragedy that has beset your life was over.

[00:34:48] And I'm afraid the darkest hours of hell are life before you. I don't think they'll kill you Lawrence. But they will blame you. The beast will have it. Okay. I mean everything was just like fine. There was nothing really about the brother's wife's dinette.

[00:35:19] None of it really made a lot of sense to me. So Anthony Hopkins is playing an asshole basically. Who sometimes turns into a werewolf. Right. And then at that point he's a murderous asshole but I'm wondering if he wasn't.

[00:35:36] I think sometimes the great thing about the werewolf is that it doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are. Once a month you're going to murder people. Right. So if Anthony Hopkins was less of an asshole would that have improved this movie?

[00:35:51] I think maybe right because when he has the when he's got his son committed and going through all this terrible shock therapy and he's just a total jerk about it. You're like well yeah. This guy sucks. You know. So then it's like oh he's a werewolf.

[00:36:06] I was like yeah. He sucks. But so there is not so there's no dynamic difference there right. Whereas and so what that did and then I didn't really know what to do with the Benicio del Toro character either because they kind of like.

[00:36:21] I don't know that I ever. Like it never was like oh no not that guy a werewolf. I was like all right fine be a werewolf. I don't really know who you are and I don't know a whole lot about you.

[00:36:36] You're trying to why does he have to be an actor. So yeah the thing is they kept on setting all these things up but they didn't explore any of these people. They didn't make them very you know multi dimensional.

[00:36:49] He's kind of trying to figure out what like how his brother died and kind of investigating and then he becomes a werewolf and then he just disembowels people. And runs around and I'm like I'm in for that.

[00:36:59] I mean don't get me wrong I like that but at the same time and it's like oh now he's back to being a human and he has to deal with the fact that he's that it's like or not.

[00:37:06] No or just not I guess so my tweak is there are a few scenes where like the preacher is talking about the history of werewolves. Emily Blunt sort of pouring over literature about lichens and history. And I feel like give me what are you learning.

[00:37:28] What did you learn in those books. Right. What are you learning from like tell me more about like you got the Sikh guy he's got some connection to India and then of course you know historically the Roma migrated from India.

[00:37:46] So you've got all kinds of opportunities for someone in the story to tell me about their werewolf pick something. Pick something and do it. I want to know I want to know. Everything was just building up. It was all world building that wolf wolf man exist.

[00:38:05] It's like I know they do because it's called the wolf man. You've already let me know it's not mysterious creature in the dark movie. I'm not book Emily Blunt. That's what I want to know. All right. And how are you how are you going to apply it?

[00:38:19] What do you do? How then shall we live? That's what I want to know. Okay. So that's one tweak and then I would say fewer jump scares. I feel like this. Like I chose to watch along the 10 minute longer version. Right. There are two options.

[00:38:34] So maybe this is my fault. You know, maybe it's like. Because I think there is more. Did you read the differences? No, I saw the original. And I didn't remember a bunch. It could be that if I were to watch the original and be like, Oh,

[00:38:46] this is awesome. This is a fantastic. No, you won't. There was some minor differences. I think there was more. There was actually more. My understanding is there's more in the pub scene in the new one or the unrated version.

[00:39:00] And that to me when you talk about like, is, you know, is there something that works? I know I'm jumping ahead, but like, you know, tropes that I give me people in a pub talking about the, you know, theories and the lore like that.

[00:39:13] I'm in, I'm in for that every time. I saw the bodies with my own eyes. Unnatural wounds. Most unnatural. Made by a fell creature, I say. Damn gypsies wandering the countryside bringing their woe and devout tree with them. They show up and two weeks later this happens.

[00:39:35] My guess is Ben Talbot went to their camp to have it off with the gypsy or the bear gets old of him and they don't what's left of him in the ditch. Got nothing to do with the gypsies. 25 years ago now, my father found him.

[00:39:52] Quinn nodding and all his flock, brains and guts and God knows what lying all over the moor for a quarter mile. And Quinn looked on his face like he'd been eating alive. Whatever did it was big, had claws and didn't mind a load of bookshot.

[00:40:16] After that, my father went home and melted down my mother's wedding spoons and cast silver bullets on him. That's good stuff. I like the old timers that know the town lore. It's a great way to move a narrative. Like that to me is exactly how you can be

[00:40:35] expository in an authentic way and be entertaining. And so, and I think back to your point about what you learned in the books, these are these opportunities. If you're going to do a book scene, get one of these scenes afterwards.

[00:40:49] Now she can be somebody that chats in a pub and relays some of this information or dispels some of it. Instead of having him say, my mother, whatever, how much more interesting is that Emily Blunt is in there hearing this type of thing and then she's kind

[00:41:04] of arguing against it. And we can see her start to see like maybe she's starting to wrestle with the humanity of this creature so that when she starts to fall, there's a sympathy that may end up turning into love or something along those lines.

[00:41:15] Like that's what you need to do if you're going to introduce this concept of well, you need to be in love with them. It's like, well, I don't even know who this guy is. Just a little note here for Game of Thrones fans.

[00:41:26] The actor, one of the main lore expositors, remembert-sers in the pub was the actor Clive Russell and he played the blackfish, Brendan Tully, in Game of Thrones. Did you need Hugo weaving at all? Why not? Well, what did he do? He got paid. He got paid.

[00:41:50] What did he do? It's just one of those things where it's like, well, this is the, I mean, okay. Like it was one of the, everything was like set up to be something and then none of it was. And here's the thing, I actually don't mind this movie

[00:42:04] because it's the werewolf movie. Because of all of the reasons I probably am saying I don't like it are the reasons why I would watch it again. Give me Anthony Hopkins absolutely overdoing it. Give me almost unintelligible Benicio del Toro at times. Give me Wolfman turning into Wolfman.

[00:42:25] Give me doctors in a asylum that are going to soon fall victim to their own hubris. And so much so that they don't even see everybody in front of them pointing behind them going and gasping and saying look out.

[00:42:40] Was there a trope, a cliche or a device that you liked in this pub? That pub. All right. So I like, I like a crotchety old man living in a haunted mansion with his manservant. Is that a trope or is that just a fantasy?

[00:42:59] I can either be the crotchety old man or the manservant. I don't mind. Here's the deal. You and I will make, we're going to make a pact assuming that, you know, something happens and our wives come to their senses and it's just you and me. I don't care.

[00:43:11] I'll be either one or we can alternate. I don't know if we could sort of mix it up. I don't know if I could live with the spider webs. I mean there's just so many. There's no way.

[00:43:20] I ran into a spider web yesterday and I spent the entirety of probably up until like shower this morning wondering if that's spider was on me. I would like to see the manservant dust a little bit.

[00:43:36] Yeah, I would just like I said, that's why I want a modern version. He's got a dustbuster out or something. Which yeah, nothing says modern like a dustbuster Steve. What are you doing? I love it. I will eat it up every single time.

[00:43:53] I love the all fours Wolfman Sprint. Oh baby. That's the thing and that's not only one rooftop to rooftop London. Fantastic. Other thing I love is I love I love a metamorphosis. I love the I love that when it hurts like when it's just

[00:44:13] sort of like the crouching and it's like, ah, no, I'm getting old wolf spine. I was really excited about the change when the German scientist has his back turned. Yeah, yeah. All the other scientists are, you know, gaffawing. Oh, the teeth thing. The teeth thing was really interesting.

[00:44:32] Give me give me a German scientist who I'm pretty sure is going to be torn to shreds. You can't just come up and. I love it. I love it. What was the ice thing like they put him in a chair and

[00:44:48] then they like, I think it was backwards into an ice. Yeah, I think it was just like, like temperature shock type thing. And every time I'm like, bro, you know, you're going in and why is your mouth open? Every single time.

[00:45:04] Like it's not like you were going fast. What do they think that the ice bath was going to do that? Like maybe I understand it probably hurts to run full force at someone when you have a shackle around your neck. Right?

[00:45:17] How far gone do you think you have to be to run to sprint with a metal shackle around your neck? That's a good question. I mean, you got to be all gone for that. Right? Yeah. I mean, unless there's like something real tasty at the end of that.

[00:45:39] Well, what would it be? It would have to be it would have to be an odd to run to the end of your chain. It would have to be a somebody who's like, look, I've got a box of peanut butter boppers from 1987. And they're in the perfect condition.

[00:45:56] Come get it. And it's just a foot out of reach. Oh man. Did I do what you love? Does this movie have a half of the battle when the growing moment? Yeah. I mean, I think so, right? I mean, just, you know, if it just if you

[00:46:16] believe that a family member was ripped to shreds by a monster, you know, just send an email. I was going to say condolences card. That's fine. I was going to say if Max Vonsito offers you a silver Smith dagger that's concealed by a cane, don't turn it down.

[00:46:41] Oh no. Yeah. I think that's I don't think that's in the original. I think that's only in the unrated. Oh, is that right? So they cut out Vonsito. There's there is something and I forget what it is that have to look back, but there's something in that because

[00:46:54] of they, they add it in the unrated version, but they don't follow through with it or they use it theatrical and like it actually becomes incongruous. Like something is said or introduced and then it's not. Well, I guess that kind of the dagger.

[00:47:13] Yeah, maybe that's the thing, right? It doesn't really sort of like a check off gun that never gets used. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. Well, hmm, I liked it. I liked the silver Smith dagger cane. That was well, the thing is there's elements of this

[00:47:30] movie that like I said, if you follow through with them and maybe don't worry about other parts of it, like, what if you didn't even have the dad and the bad werewolf, right? Isn't it bad enough to be a werewolf?

[00:47:42] Like you, you're a werewolf and you're out like you're, you're just a dude and then also you're like, oh my gosh, there's a bunch of killings that happen. And that might have been me. I'm covered in blood. Like do you need a bad werewolf? You're the bad werewolf.

[00:47:55] I think you need him because he does, the father doesn't approve of the son's career. So this movie is more about daddy issues than, than the curse of a werewolf. Yeah, it's exactly it. That's exactly it. The daddy killed the mom, the daddy killed the brother.

[00:48:13] Now the daddy's going to try to kill you. Right. What are you gonna do? Well, and you know, not only that, You could make that movie and then Benicio Loutoro is not a werewolf though, right? Not only that, but daddy doesn't like your chosen career.

[00:48:31] Doesn't, you're a famous actor. You're gonna tour America doesn't care at all. Yeah. But he taunts you. He says maybe someday I'll come to see you at the theater. This guy's just, just a monster. He's just a monster of a, And so has Benicio Loutoro.

[00:48:50] That's the one I'm trying to watch. I don't understand. Like that's the problem. I think, I think maybe that is the big issue that we have. Right. If you eliminate this, this father as aspect, like this daddy issues thing and then a big battle at

[00:49:07] the end from werewolf to werewolf. Like to me, I don't, I don't know if we need that. Right. I mean, maybe then you can spend more time on this one dude's struggle with being a werewolf and then how love finds a way to make his way through that.

[00:49:23] Okay. Here's what I would like to see. You go weaving. He gets bit. Right. Yeah. Now he's a Scotland Yard detective who's kind of famous because he was on the Jack the Ripper case. Right. I feel like that's the wolf man movie I'd like to see.

[00:49:39] Well, that's probably what they're saying. I want to see him investigating his own killings in London. He doesn't know it's him. And he doesn't know it's him. There's the movie. I mean, of course he's going to come up. He's going to come up with a few clues.

[00:49:58] But I think that that's it. Yeah. You might want to edit this part out of the podcast because we're doing that. And Hugo weaving is absolutely cast in this role? I mean, that was 2010. I feel like Hugo weavings star has dimmed a little bit since then.

[00:50:22] I would like to see that set in modern times. Could we do that? I feel like it's a little bit harder now with that because of all the, you know, social media and camera phones. Okay. Is this movie better or worse? Ron Howard film.

[00:50:44] It's a Howard minus three. I'm going to say Howard minus two because I did not hate the movie. You know, yeah. I didn't hate it. It's got problems, but I mean, I chose to watch the longer version and if I go back, I'd probably do it again.

[00:51:05] I would probably make the same choice. I think, I think because there was it was missing a lot of the humanity part. Right. It was missing a lot of that. There wasn't anything, but I didn't find any of the characters, especially compelling like they were just their descriptions

[00:51:28] on paper was essentially what you saw on the screen. You know what I mean? Like there wasn't that extra level. And I think I think Howard would have done a better job with that part of it. I'd like to see Howard do a Wolfman.

[00:51:44] Yeah, I could get on board with that. Did you ever see this? I think it might have been Netflix. Might have been Hulu. Not sure it's called 13 lives. It's Ron Howard's most recent movie. No man. I have never, I don't want to say I'd never, but it's

[00:52:04] it had been a long time since I was so gripped up by a movie. Really? I was like tense. I was, I was like sitting on the edge of the couch. It's a true story. It involves caves and divers. It's really good. It's really good.

[00:52:26] And it reminds you every now and again like Howard can pull something like this out of his head every now and again. Last question, Steve, you and I are writing a screenplay together. Is there anything about this film that you would like to bring into our film?

[00:52:47] No, I don't think so. I mean, there's a, I could maybe be coaxed into sort of a chat about the lore, right? Like, you know, like in a pub, but you know, we said it somewhere different. Like, maybe it's maybe it's maybe it's some young people playing

[00:53:08] playing arcade games or something or there like a, I like the idea of a cane that has a hidden gadget. Well, gadget sure. I used to have a cane with a hidden knife. Did you know this? Yeah. You knew this about me? Yeah. Okay.

[00:53:28] And even if I didn't know it in actuality, I knew it like emotionally. I love that thing. I don't know what happened to it. It's in the wrong hands. All right. Legit dagger, you know, you could, I don't know if you

[00:53:44] could kill a werewolf with it, but you could kill Hugo weaving for sure. Well, you could kill a werewolf if you'd taken the time to get to know them and love them for who they are. You kind of learned to love them. I guess.

[00:54:00] So Steve, I think that I will probably watch every werewolf movie that they will, that they make. I'll watch every single one. I'm happy they made this movie. I'm giving it a Howard minus two, but I am happy that they made this movie. Oh yeah.

[00:54:25] I mean, like I said, I've seen the Twiress up. I don't, I would be surprised if I'd never watched again. I love all the London scenes. Just give me, I could watch all the London scenes over and over, except for when he's like in the

[00:54:38] knickknack shop that she's got, or is she like an art dealer or an artifact? I know. That's so funny. Like the movie, it's interesting. Like the movie tried to do, like it excelled when it was, when the wolf was there, right? I think, I think that was great.

[00:54:55] Any transformation scene, any time, I didn't end the asylum scene. I was actually kind of okay because for the first time I was kind of like invested in this guy. But then and every time it tried to do anything else, it was like they just didn't, this movie

[00:55:10] was really all, this movie was exactly what it, what it actually was titled. It's The Wolfman. This is not. It should have been called The Wolfman. You know? Yeah, that's true. The Wolf Dad. How about this? How about a movie where one of the

[00:55:25] astronauts is a wolf man? And, and they're going into space and he's timed it just right. But he won major miscalculations that once he leaves the Earth's atmosphere, the moon is always full. They've got to get to the other side. So the whole movie is like there were

[00:55:45] this were wolf is chasing him on the space shuttle and they're like if we could just, just fly to where there's a shadow. They got to, they got to fly to the other side. And he's changing the coordinates. So they're limited because they're, you

[00:56:04] know, they're missing their chief science officer because he's just wolfing out. He's the only one, they're off course. He's the only one that can get him back. But they can't get back until he turns back into, they can't kill him.

[00:57:37] Okay, David. This is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:58:00] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for the Lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready

[00:58:15] to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons. And with the season pass option and Supercast, listeners can get early ad free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[00:58:29] See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our Dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes.