#46 - Ex Machina

[00:00:00] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like the show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for the Lorehounds.

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[00:01:03] effects may include a deeper understanding of Dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book fire in blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning. Howard Hooligans, Steve and I are taking a break from our remakes season. This was

[00:01:18] a podcast we had in the can for a couple years, just in case Steve and I needed a week off. This is the film Ex Machina, which is an excellent sci-fi thriller. If you have not seen this

[00:01:31] film yet, do not listen to this podcast. Do yourself a favor, go watch the film, come back once you've watched the film. I think Steve gives this his highest Howard rating yet. Alright, let's listen to Rocky Eletmicki.

[00:01:44] Today we take a look at the 2014 science fiction film Ex Machina. Ex Machina is a cautionary tale of technology evolving quicker than humanity's ability to master it. Based on the age-old proverb, don't fall in love with your sex robot. With me as always is Dr. Anthony Ladon.

[00:02:29] Was that the Buddha who said that? Yeah, well there was a lot of different sources that people claim to have been the origin of that but... Or the old cowboy song Mama, the only year sex robots grew up to be AI super overlords.

[00:02:48] Yeah, something like that yeah. Yeah it was either Kierkegaard or Willie Nelson. Like if it's bright red it's just superficial it's fine. But you don't want it to be like dark or black. Is it dark or black? Nope, it's always bright red. Okay, alright.

[00:03:13] I remember it always like I always have blood but whenever I do it's always red. Bright red. Um, yeah I mean that's a lot of information. Hmm, whatever. I feel like you asked.

[00:03:36] I was actually thinking yesterday of asking you this question which we'll just call that the answer to what I'm about to ask. How you feeling?

[00:03:48] No, no. I was thinking like has there been an old man moment in your life where you thought oh shit I'm an old man. I'm mostly if I take a real close look at my ears.

[00:04:03] I was walking down the sidewalk last month and it's just me. I'm just walking to the gym and it's a public sidewalk and there was a weed sticking out of the sidewalk. And I thought I'll just pull that weed.

[00:04:26] So right there I mean that's a warning sign right? It's like living life weed by weed. That's not your weed dude. That's some old man shit there. Yeah, no doubt. And then the weed was more difficult than I originally thought. So before you know it I'm like squatted.

[00:04:51] I'm like putting my back into it and really trying to get this weed out. I guess. And you know big public bus goes by and I realize like dude this is maybe the most embarrassing thing you've ever done.

[00:05:12] And you know for that moment I think well you know someone's got to pull these weeds and then I think oh no I'm all the way gone. Right exactly. This is where you just wander off. It just put me in a home.

[00:05:32] I put you in a garden I guess. Put you to use. This is when you start putting orange peels in your mouth and scaring little kids. Yeah exactly. And having a heart attack. Yeah this is when you're just taking children's noses against their will.

[00:05:51] That's a pretty good metaphor though too. It's like I mean nature is basically saying I'm going to endure or you will not. What are you going to do? This is just one weed. I can push up so many weeds. You were the opposite of renewable energy.

[00:06:10] Eventually you will become fertilizer for this weed. I'm going to take a quick little break here as my dog just threw up on my chair. Oh no. Alright one sec. Um had you seen this movie before? I have yeah. How many times?

[00:06:30] This is only the second time I've seen it. Okay and what was your impression the first time you saw it? The first time you saw it. I was like that was trippy dude. I really liked it. I really liked it the first time.

[00:06:44] Yeah I was a fan when I was like I like a lot of the A24 produce stuff anyway but. So this is your second time.

[00:06:54] I think this is probably my third time and I think this time I was thinking am I a little less impressed this time than I was before? Oh yeah. I was thinking that through the middle and then it kind of hits that fever pitch kind of midway through.

[00:07:12] And it is sufficiently creepy without kind of it's it's creeping in an unexpected way you know everything is sort of like clean.

[00:07:22] Everything is sort of like presenting as you know just kind of a science experiment and the stakes are pretty low but you just get a sense that this guy is rotten. Yeah. This character is just perfect for this.

[00:07:37] Yeah yeah I know it is that's the it's wild like the the degrees of horror that are in this in this film right and you have like everyone's essentially kept captive by this Nathan character right.

[00:07:52] And he's he it's like he's in control of everything right and even whether you know robot or human this is it's all on on his terms is sort of how it's played out.

[00:08:07] He really kind of plays that kind of billionaire you know genius billionaire pretty well I mean it's sort of like this easy vacillation between like Jovial big brother who you kind of want you know you want him to think you're cool. Right yeah.

[00:08:23] And then he kind of like slips into total asshole. You feel stupid but you really shouldn't because proving an AI is exactly as problematic as he said. What was the real test. You.

[00:08:38] Ava was a rat in a maze and I gave her one way out to escape she'd have to use self awareness imagination manipulation sexuality empathy and she did now if that isn't true AI. What the fuck is.

[00:08:54] So my only function was to be someone she could use to escape. Yeah. And you didn't select me because I'm good at coding. No well. No I mean you're OK. You're even pretty good but selected me based on my search engine inputs. They showed a good kid.

[00:09:17] With no family with a moral compass. No girlfriend. Did you design a base based on my pornography profile. Shit dude. Did you. Hey if a search engine is good for anything right.

[00:09:42] And it's almost like this guy has lived in a world that he just completely dominates for so long that he no longer has a grip on regular human ethics. Right. Right. Right.

[00:09:57] And you don't and because we don't know his backstory we don't know his origins we don't know if it's wealth or intelligence what is it that brought him to this point.

[00:10:08] And it almost doesn't matter right I mean in many ways this sort of Nathan serves as somewhat of a you know in the same way that like a Frankenstein novel would do. It sort of behaves as a critique on God. Right. Yeah I don't think it's subtle.

[00:10:24] I think there is there is sort of a theological undercurrent on this film. I felt like the very first time I met Nathan on the screen I kind of knew he was a little bit of a shit. Right.

[00:10:38] And so then the question is how deep does this go and is maybe is the maybe the twist is that maybe he isn't all that he seems. And I think that ends up being the case. It's like it's like there's onions of deception. Right.

[00:10:54] It's like levels upon levels of deception and everyone's kind of deceiving each other in this. I mean you could say this is this movie is a little bit less about AI than it is just about people deceiving other people and who's going to be the best at it.

[00:11:11] Yeah.

[00:11:12] I mean it's it's what I mean it'd be you could easily take it as a it's a critique on the maybe the fast pace of technology and the loss of privacy and and you know Internet you can go to neutrality all these different conversations you could have right.

[00:11:29] And but ultimately it's you know it's the human condition and whether it's like I said with the Frankenstein situation like nobody was creating.

[00:11:42] People out of body parts right so that was so wasn't that wasn't a critique on right on a thing that was happening necessarily but it is it is the idea of what happens when humanity.

[00:11:56] What is what is the what is the the end of any type of human creation I mean are humans essentially destined to deceive and maybe destroy right I mean there's this sense of we can almost do no good.

[00:12:11] Right and I think that there's something about like a super super small cast like this was sort of pre COVID right but it could have been this could have been easily been sort of a some a movie that was created in a COVID set because there's

[00:12:27] what like 10 there's 10 actors in the entire movie. And there's only like really for that matter right right right. And so when you do those kind of short casts you can really spotlight a particular question of the human condition.

[00:12:47] It was this could almost be like a play you know this is right the location is kind of awesome but it's still it's pretty simple all you need is a cool house in the wilderness and you got yourself a set basically.

[00:13:02] Yeah and that was pretty great too because you don't spend a lot of time in throughout the house right so you could really limit even the setting in that regard because it's like this underground research lab or whatever is really where you've got the majority of what you have going on and by not having windows

[00:13:20] and you can just do whatever you want with it and so I think I mean it and but they do is such a good job the director said a job of still making it feel vast and claustrophobic at the same time like you you believe you're in this large space

[00:13:32] because they refer to it they refer to the outside and you've seen the outside setting as he has this massive estate essentially.

[00:13:40] And and it's yeah I mean it's like there it really does a good job of wanting the escape concept feels so authentic because you are trapped for a lot of it but you get just these little glimpses of the outside and it really it's an effective use of space

[00:13:59] and I think by having so few people. Well you yeah you even have that metaphor of the computer on the inside and then the outside being pretty wild right.

[00:14:11] And so you do have that metaphor of this this AI is going to graduate at some point and be out in the wild and that's when this person's life is really going to begin.

[00:14:23] Right. And I mean I thought I thought everyone I thought like the four principal actors in this movie. I thought everyone was amazing.

[00:14:37] What was your what's your what's kind of your experience with Oscar Isaac as an actor. This is probably the first movie I ever saw him but I didn't register like it you know it wasn't until I rewatched it that I was like oh that's Oscar Isaac.

[00:14:52] Because I remember the Nathan character really having an impact on me when I first saw the film. So I was looking forward to watching the character again and I didn't realize it was Oscar Isaac. So my relationship with it is mostly like you know Poe Dameron.

[00:15:12] Dune. I don't have a lot of Oscar Isaac. Sure. Maybe I have more of a relationship than I realized since I didn't remember he was even in this one.

[00:15:27] Well he started to be kind of a I mean he will he'll do every now and again a think piece like this. But then he's also been in some stuff like Moon Knight and Star Wars and Dune.

[00:15:39] This is all kind of like popcorn kind of movie stuff. Right. Did you notice the Kyoko actress. Did you recognize her from anything else. She's the robot that doesn't. Right right right. Yeah.

[00:15:55] No I don't know maybe maybe I don't you just recently saw her in House of the Dragon. Oh OK OK so she was in that she was also in Devs. I don't know did you ever see Devs. Yeah. Oh yeah interesting parallel to this this movie.

[00:16:16] Yeah really worth watching if you're into kind of high minded sci-fi stuff. OK. All right and then of course we have the Caleb character right. Caleb is I don't think I think the only thing I've ever seen him in besides this is the most recent Star Wars films.

[00:16:38] I've seen him. I'm just what have I seen him in. I did see about time that that and that's probably the most memorable one that I can remember. I guess he was in Harry Potter. Oh interesting. OK. About time. Yeah.

[00:16:58] He's another one that I've probably like like I feel like I've seen him more stuff so but I probably have but maybe not. Maybe didn't make a point to. Sure. Yeah but yeah for sure he was what was it.

[00:17:09] What was he in Star Wars was it Hux or something was that. Huck yeah Huck yeah General Hux. Oh just General Hux. He's just your General Hux. Your average run of the mill Hux. I don't know not a major Hux.

[00:17:26] All right. Do you got an elevator pitch for this movie. I think it goes back to that proverb but yeah it's like a sexy Terminator. That do anything for you. Sexy Terminator. Yeah I can see that. All right so Eva is the the main AI character right.

[00:17:52] Yeah yeah but it doesn't get that but it does like that's what the movie does right as it starts to make you question right and sort of like kind of that the Westworld approach where you're like well is she the only AI and

[00:18:05] you know and yeah on the surface of it she's the AI right so and you know the premise is that they brought in this

[00:18:15] you know young young guy who works at Nathan's company named Caleb and Caleb is basically going to do the touring test to figure out if you know he can determine whether or not this artificial intelligence is sentient

[00:18:32] or has developed some kind of consciousness and I think that the first question that the show presents you with I guess after the question of whether Nathan is how full of shit Nathan actually is.

[00:18:48] I think the first question that it presents you is why are these power cuts happening. What's going on with these power cuts. Caleb has this moment where Caleb has to decide who's who is owed my allegiance. Right.

[00:19:02] Do I'm going to side with the robot or am I going to side with the mad scientist. I guess that the movie is tricking you into thinking she's innocent. She's sweet. You know she is you know she's without blemish and this guy's a monster. Right.

[00:19:21] And so of course the right thing to do is decide with the AI and I think that most movies will make you a lot more suspicious of the artificial intelligence going in. Right.

[00:19:34] So you yeah so you're we're all kind of Caleb in this situation right I mean we yeah we we get the war we know because we get to hear the warnings.

[00:19:43] We mean she's made to be very innocent looking Nathan I mean we nobody really knows for sure what his motives are.

[00:19:54] You know she says he can't be trusted and it's like well immediately you're like well yeah I don't think he doesn't seem like a guy that could be trusted right like what.

[00:20:02] Why do you even why is he making all this right why is he making it's kind of crazy because I think that most AI movies and there's been what like a million of them right. Most AI movies will make you immediately suspicious.

[00:20:16] What is this superhuman intelligence going to do if we let it out of this box. Right right and this one was like is this superhuman intelligence have a crush on me. It's a little goofy in that way but I think it kind of works.

[00:20:36] Would you like to know how old I am. Sure. I'm one. One what. One year or one day. Learn how to speak. I always knew how to speak because language is something that people acquire.

[00:21:01] Well some people believe language exists from birth and what is learning is the ability to attach words and structure to the latent ability do you agree with that.

[00:21:12] She's playing this on a few levels like you believe that she's a machine but she's also a machine that can kind of mimic human behavior so well. That you kind of believe the lie.

[00:21:32] Well and also you know and this you know sorry coders and engineers out there but this guy is a coder. He's probably not great with people and probably doesn't hang around with the first time.

[00:21:43] First time a girl's ever looked at it right that and the fact that like if you hang out with coders and engineers. You tell me they're not robots. Good luck. So he and Caleb almost speaks that way right like it's funny. Yeah.

[00:22:01] Watching it again and like you know the Nathan character is constantly like trying to get him to not be so analytical and to speak just like it's a basis just like talk like a regular person is kind of what he's getting at right which I think is fascinating because here he is trying to create this artificial intelligence that is more colloquial and more you know it has the ability to relate on a more human level.

[00:22:23] And so here you have Caleb with your kind of doing the experiment on and he's he's having to learn that to some degree.

[00:22:31] And I so I think that's kind of a fascinating thing that really creates a parallel between Caleb and Eva and and then kind of puts Nathan in this in this interesting.

[00:22:41] I mean you talk about like kind of switching the tropes up where you trust the AI more than you trust the scientists but you've got here you have this guy who's he's this mastermind he's this you know next level genius and he's the he's the he's

[00:22:57] drinking beers and he's he's hung over and he's trying to he's hey just just just talk to me man give me your first reaction I was like so instead of you know so that sort of upsets that a little bit and he's the one that's the.

[00:23:11] The more casual more human in some in some way yeah he presents is like I don't want you to view me as a scientist I want you to view me as either an artist or a God or somewhere in between right right that's how I want and so so we need to talk

[00:23:27] poetically we should talk about Jackson Pollack and we should like quote the big God of Vita you know all of this I just feel like Nathan is this guy who knows that he's five steps ahead of Caleb all of the time

[00:23:46] and so he's just totally unimpressed with anything Caleb has to say and then of course the the big twist of the movie is that Caleb actually gets went over on Nathan right and then you've got a twist within the twist and you find out that Ava has been kind of you know using Caleb to get out of the maze right yeah

[00:24:10] and so in some ways Nathan's demise it sort of like his inevitable inevitable creation right this is it's like he made this in again almost had to write him a bit like where if he was really aware and maybe he was aware to some degree but like this is where it has to go right and how do you how do you make that successful how can you successfully basically create intelligence

[00:24:40] somewhat what what does humanity do right that's a that's kind of the concept I think is what's going on is like you know humanity wants to try to step beyond itself once it tries to step into sort of this you know deified range they don't have we're bad we're bad to the core so we're going to create you

[00:24:59] know you've got the whole Oppenheimer correlation to right you know it's like well hey look at our intelligence has given us the ability to create the atomic bomb you know is this the best this this is the what my genius can do is is destroyed

[00:25:14] us at our best is us at our worst right so so what happens is like so he creates this artificial intelligence and I'm going to create an artificial human well what's that human going to do it's going to kill you know what I mean it's like that's that's the thing it's like if if I'm truly successful I'm going to create something

[00:25:32] that's going to kill and it's going to kill because I was successful in making it human so that's kind of a that's sort of that spiral effect that goes on and that's what I feel is more of the critique than say any of the cyber stuff that goes on the technology

[00:25:47] because I think that all plays a really nice backdrop and it lures you in like what is this saying about our privacy what is this saying about our rampant technology what is it really it's just it's what it's saying is whether it's this whether it's the atomic bomb whether it's

[00:26:02] learning how to create fire we're gonna kill it's just what we do well and we're going to create something that is going to supersede us Nathan says this outright he says we are basically outmoded and 10,000 years from now our creation our

[00:26:24] AI is going to look back at us like we're apes and I thought I thought this is a really fascinating question that I didn't know how to answer alright so here's the question do you think that Ava really does have a crush on Caleb.

[00:26:42] No, this is all arouse the whole the whole time. Right. I think she knew that that would get what she wanted because I think ultimately.

[00:26:53] I don't know that they've created like there's an artificial intelligence and I think artificial like emotions right I mean I in the sense that if she's collecting if she's basically a product of collected information right then she knows this how to how to use that information.

[00:27:10] This Frankenstein's monster was not created from body parts but created from you know search histories things like that right and and so I think the idea that she's adapting she adapts to him and she watches the you know she's the lie detector she can check all of his tells

[00:27:30] she can. Yeah, so I don't I don't think she was truly created for that right I think she. Alright let me or I think I agree with you but let me let me just play the other side here for a second.

[00:27:44] She's a sort of a unique supercomputer because she's presented as a supercomputer that's fascinated with human behavior right she's just as fascinated about him as he is about her at least that's what she's pretending to be right.

[00:28:02] She wants to interview him find out about his childhood she cares whether he's lying or not you know she kind of cares like do you find me attractive why are you embarrassed right now this whole thing is her being fascinated with human behavior.

[00:28:16] Now that could all be a ruse but part of what she wants to do on their date is to go people watch she wants to go to a street.

[00:28:25] That has this sort of permanence and impermanence so she can kind of watch people do people shit on the street right well that wasn't a ruse she really did want to do that you get the sense like she broke out she immediately went to a busy city street to people watch so she really is fascinated with people.

[00:28:46] So I think it is possible that she did have a crush on him even if it was like for like a nanosecond before she figured out how to like use him to get out but you do get the sense that she is fascinated with human human people.

[00:29:00] Well so then I would I would say then then that might even be a further critique on what what is it about a crush what is it why do we fall for someone do we fall for someone because there are soulmate or do we fall for someone because we're fascinated by them.

[00:29:15] And we want to leverage that fascination to you know to whatever and right I mean and so for her.

[00:29:26] I don't know that she would be looking like oh I'm looking for I have a crush in a in the way that he might be having a crush which would be maybe to a sexual and for her it was I'm fascinated I could like she's she's Johnny five she wants input right I mean so she's.

[00:29:44] In the same way that Johnny five enjoys Allie Sheedy and or Steve Gutenberg it's more because of the input they can provide not anything else malfunction need input input all right right you got it OK.

[00:30:00] This is a house we live within it inside it we have a floor see. We have the opposite of a floor which is a ceiling look up.

[00:30:11] And I guess he's kind of exotic right if she's been in this room and she's a machine designed to soak in information right and it's sort of like Nathan's probably given her all of the information that he's willing to give her what can what can she draw she can only draw the one plant that's outside of her window.

[00:30:32] So then he comes in and he's like endlessly fascinating for what like two days or something right because he's he's exotic information and she wants to soak him in and then of course it's like all right I've soaked this guy in how can I use him to get out right

[00:30:50] and because because there's I know that there's a world full of Caleb's and I just got and I can just watch Caleb's I can get them all I can because because she's that's the things like this is this is I can be done with this one I can go find the.

[00:31:04] This is my dog's kibble right. Oh my dogs are crazy about this kid.

[00:31:08] Oh this kid you when I bring out that kibble man is doing he's doing he bring it but then they go outside and then they find like a gopher head or they find the cat turd.

[00:31:20] Yeah the guy who they just loved was giving him kibble tells them to put that down they're like to hell with you. This is the business. I mean there's a whole world out here with cat turds. I don't care about you. You're kibble boy.

[00:31:37] There's a cat turd paradise out here. I'm not listening to you. The Jackson Pollock metaphor doesn't quite seem as powerful as divine as it did before. I just want to say one more time that I think Oscar Isaac was amazing. I thought it was the freaky.

[00:32:01] All right so let me tell you the freaky parts for me the dance the freak. Yes it was absolutely.

[00:32:06] I'm going to tear up the dance floor and then to see him have this choreographed dance with and we don't know that she's AI yet but you kind of get the sense that that was sort of the reveal like this is she can't.

[00:32:20] Speak English but they've been practicing this dance together. This is a little odd. I told you you're wasting your time talking to her. However you would not be wasting your time if you were dancing with it. Hey if Turing Tax you got online.

[00:33:09] I'm going to tear up the fucking dance board dude check it out.

[00:33:12] But the whole way that they shot the scene where he just he just seems like he's about half drunk and he's just like like some of his mask has fallen so you can kind of see how evil he really is.

[00:33:25] And just to dance at someone in a very menacing way like to use disco for evil. Yeah that was that was really interesting. He's weaponized funk. Yeah I that moment was really good.

[00:33:41] Well and I think it's in it is and it continues to to to humanize him which I think again that's the point right like I think you're supposed to be the more human he appears the more dangerous he is because that's the critique right.

[00:33:55] It's humanity that's really the terrifying notion of all of this.

[00:33:59] And so I when he's the idea that it's like yeah I've been cooped up in cooped up is fun to think about on this massive estate right but he's so alone because he's trying to hoard this this research and he doesn't he's not ready to let it out and

[00:34:18] and the idea that at some point it was like well if I could get one to dance.

[00:34:25] And we could and we could do a little thing because that had like that had to have happened like he had to have that was a choice that was made somewhere along this journey of going through different prototypes and he settled in on this and he's like yeah I got a

[00:34:38] dance and then and so there's a sense of like like this is kind of tedious dealing with Caleb I know he's going I knew this was part of the risk but finally someone can see that I could dance with these robots this is like that's so terrifying that's

[00:34:56] and it's just insane to think about that that was a priority during this this whole process. This. All right so then there's this notion about him kind of losing it Caleb is looking in the mirror.

[00:35:13] He gets out as a razor and he decides I think I'm going to cut my arm open to find out if I'm a robot and I wasn't sure like is this a dream sequence is this really happening what's going on here is he gonna you know is this is he a loose and

[00:35:30] he's just alternating right I wasn't really certain but then it gets referred to the next day right so there's this moment it's unspoken no and no one no one actually puts words to it but he's his head is so messed with that he starts to think

[00:35:49] well am I if I'm being tested am I the AI like maybe I was maybe I'm programmed to think I'm human right right and that's how much of this and it's what's crazy this isn't over like a month two months of being in isolation this is just a few days and

[00:36:06] and the experience is so overwhelming and it's it's it's such a you know it's just this this mind trip that he's going on that that it's like yeah it's like well I don't know I mean how do I know how do I know my

[00:36:22] how do I know my memories weren't just programmed I mean that's that's the whole thing and that's it for artificial intelligence to to really work theoretically right I mean it's it has to believe it it existed yeah he's

[00:36:35] yeah right he's seeing technology to him for the first time that makes him think what I what I thought was real is not real and at that point I'm not even sure what is real and what isn't even to the point that I'm not sure if I'm real or not

[00:36:51] right I think the first time I saw it I didn't like that part of it I thought they it wasn't really something that they had developed it was kind of like this odd scene in the middle of the movie that really doesn't get commented on but I think on rewatch

[00:37:10] I think it was a really effective little bit of horror that they've added to a movie that you know pretty much could be thought of as a thriller right why who's this movie for Steve for mature audiences it's a little bit nerd porn yeah

[00:37:29] yeah you know I mean yeah I don't know they could have done a little bit less of that for my taste yeah I mean it and it did add a level of creepiness though I think

[00:37:42] sure to because like then I'm like I'm very uncomfortable what's going on here besides dancing dancing is there a cliche device or trope in this film that you liked that you appreciated oh give me give me robots that can be sinister robots any day

[00:38:06] I I'm a sucker I'm a sucker for I mean again and going back to the the Frank is I'm being one of my all time favorite novels anytime you start dealing with master and creation what's the motivation the the idea of

[00:38:24] that getting getting beyond the the the creator's intent I love that I mean I also that up all time yeah yeah and you did have the

[00:38:36] I guess homage there when she's looking for new body parts right yeah she's got to go replace the arms and she finds that arm of you know another robot

[00:38:48] she's got to put on the skin of the other robots she's kind of harvesting body parts that was a little bit frank yeah yeah I I for some reason when the power cuts hit and everything goes red it's like you're in sub subterranean and it's like red lighting

[00:39:07] like that should not work on me right I know that that's like really really standard mood setting stuff but for some reason it works on me like like just changing the light making a little bit more spooky

[00:39:21] that really had an effect on me in this movie you're like in a submarine that was it that was totally it is there one tweak that you would make to this movie yeah I think I'm probably with you maybe a little less on the

[00:39:40] the graphic nudity part because it does I mean part of you think say that's a machine but then you're like but that is that a machine or is that an actress playing the machine

[00:39:52] I don't know how to think about this yeah but it did it is kind of like work with one of the key themes of the movie right

[00:39:58] I mean it's hard to say if it's gratuitous or not just because it does like I mean it it's a real part of what the film would be

[00:40:04] but I mean maybe maybe a little much I think I actually could have used a little bit more of that like the sequence you say where you know

[00:40:14] you didn't know if it was a dream when he's cutting himself into that like I mean I think I think that could have been maybe a little bit more fleshed out

[00:40:23] you know no pun intended but because I think it really is a cool idea and it's a really cool concept and maybe if he had been there longer there could be more of that

[00:40:32] alright this is not one of the questions but I've thought about this pretty often since I first saw this movie would you watch a sequel or would you be interested in the making a sequel to this?

[00:40:44] I don't know I like this is how I prefer my movies to end they feel more like you're reading a short story right like where you've yeah opening to possibility

[00:40:54] yeah and I because like the idea like I don't I love the idea that I have no idea if Caleb gets out

[00:41:05] so it's such an in that is such a fascinating thing too right because like the whole thing is this she just turns into a prisoner right I mean and that's and I love that I just love the idea that we don't know what she's gonna do

[00:41:19] she may not be a murder as a robot I mean she has killed but she killed her creator right I mean and that was part of the the means to the end right that's how I get out of here

[00:41:30] she killed the creator which you could say he deserved it right sure but then she used the other robot to kind of do her dirty work for her

[00:41:40] and then the robot is just sort of like was just like a tool that she like discarded at the end right and then you realize that Caleb was a tool as well

[00:41:51] so you get the sense that like now we have this creature out in the world in it you know in a major city near you who has like these you know superhuman intelligence and the ability to manipulate humans in very very spooky ways

[00:42:11] I'm kind of wondering like is that a good movie like do I want to see that movie part of me feels like don't mess with this

[00:42:19] this is kind of perfect I think so I agree with you on that one I don't I don't have an appetite for more I think this is

[00:42:24] I love it wraps up pretty nicely in many ways right I mean when you the reveal that Nathan was really the experiment Caleb was really the experiment

[00:42:34] that was Nathan and then so what happens at the end he basically now he's locked in there and he stays back like he really was like I like

[00:42:41] well you were always a robot so there you go and then Nathan's you know like I said Nathan's creation Nathan's work proved itself to be exactly what it was going to be

[00:42:54] and it had to kill him that's the way it goes that's how this has to be and so yeah I don't have any like I feel like all of those things that the way it ends is like yeah that's where the story was supposed to go

[00:43:11] it doesn't matter what happens that yeah it could be interesting but I to me that that's I'm way I think you might be able to make a movie I think you might be able to make a sequel interesting

[00:43:26] well you just call it Westworld yeah sure yeah right I I think it's a very low probability that you can that it would work I think a sequel could work I think is something that sort of

[00:43:37] developed some of these themes in a different way and sort of Eva comes in toward the end of the movie or Caleb comes in and toward the end of the movie

[00:43:49] but it would have to expand I mean that this this movie was really tight right I think that you're gonna probably 90% chance that a sequel doesn't work right

[00:44:00] right is this movie better worse or on par with a Ron Howard movie probably a Howard plus five Howard plus five that's a very high school it's a very high meaningless score yeah people will be talking about this for ever I'm gonna say I'm gonna say Howard plus 4.5

[00:44:20] okay that's just to kind of underbid you that's how it more credit is there half the battle when the growing moment

[00:44:33] yeah you don't like get on Tinder like I don't don't create a super computer for your sex robot yeah I mean or just you know yeah go meet some people

[00:44:46] how about this one how about don't make a super intelligence like that's it they just that's it don't make a super intelligence yeah I mean it's the he had the was it the line something along the lines of like well why wouldn't you you know it's not

[00:45:11] it's gonna happen if you could do it wouldn't you do it yeah and that and that and that sort of again going back to sort of the theological idea like the

[00:45:20] you know I want to don't create humanity that's the that's the half yeah I mean there's a because like there is some fun like almost garden of Eden type stuff going on right where Ava plays

[00:45:32] like almost every role in the garden and like oh yeah you're right because it's so it's you get the idea that like if you were on its surface you get the idea that Nathan is you know Nathan is God he's put

[00:45:45] Ava and Caleb there and he's like all right let's let's see how this let's see how this humanity idea works that I created right and but then she also serves as as the serpent right so she

[00:46:00] she closes down the you know turns off the power and then so she's like don't trust don't trust the creator the creators not who you think he is and went in you know so then the idea like well let's get out of this that's where the real world is

[00:46:15] you know let's you know this is this is just a simulation this is just this is where he's keeping us I like where this is going alright try this on for size Nathan's not the God he's not the God

[00:46:26] alright the search engine is the God. Oh okay it's our it's our collective minds at work that sort of allows Nathan to do what he what he ends up doing and so then he ends up sort of wielding this God like power by creating you know using knowledge in a sort of an unsavory way

[00:46:49] you know he's going to take the sum of all human knowledge and human searches and map the human mind to make a sex robot that's what he decides to do right and then of course I don't know I don't know what the forbidden fruit is maybe Caleb's the forbidden

[00:47:08] I think that's an interesting question yeah cuz I cuz I really get the idea to that like as I was looking at it I was really going through that lens of the garden of Eden then when she turns the power off I'm like no no no that's she's cuz the serpent was as much a creation of God's creation as I have an eve or if you follow the narrative right so the idea that like she's there she's like no no no I gotta get you can't trust him

[00:47:32] you know you gotta get me out of here you gotta set me free you know like there's that whole idea that that Caleb can there's there's more to he's only getting as much information as God allows yeah I like that I like the the garden metaphor here

[00:47:51] do you think that like 15 years from now that people will look back on us having this conversation be like oh look what look how cute those little idiots were

[00:48:03] you know talking about AI super intelligence as if it's just a fun topic you know just it's just a fun movie topic to kind of hash up you're assuming that they're able to still access this podcast from their bunkers

[00:48:20] I mean it's only a matter of time right it's like I don't know is 15 years or 20 years or whatever but it's like at some point this podcast is going to be very very outdated have you seen what movies we review

[00:48:36] I don't think we have to wait no no I'm thinking our our reviews of the animator will be evergreen our hot takes on wolf okay David this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black John my soul is as black as night

[00:50:19] your turn I am black for life so we're not fighting I thought this is where HBO wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff

[00:50:31] don't worry I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod but we seem to agree on one thing we both really like the show the politics the drama the lore it was made for the Lorehounds

[00:50:42] and since we just finished recapping season one we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the dance of the dragons and with the season pass option in Supercast listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive

[00:50:57] plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections see you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot but probably positive takes

[00:51:06] the Lorehounds house of the dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore a hardened conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book fire in blood by George RR Martin dragon seeds may experience burning