#49 - Cape Fear (1991)

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[00:01:11] I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna cry, Nick! Hello, Properly Howard fans. Welcome to another edition of Properly Howard. This week we're covering Cape Fear with the inimitable Robert De Niro. Hey, if you've ever considered becoming a Patreon member of the Lorehounds, I can't recommend it highly enough.

[00:01:50] Go to thelorehounds.com. They're a little bit of money their way. And check in for second breakfast. Super fun. Totally worth it. Christmas is coming up a great gift for friends. Check out the fine work they're doing with Ahsoka and Wheel of Time.

[00:02:07] And in the near future, keep an eye out for podcasts related to Dune and Edgar Allan Poe's House of Usher. Alright, here's my conversation with comic Steve Osburn.

[00:02:19] So Steve, now that you are a tattooed man, do you feel like you have more in common with De Niro and Cape Fear? Which was wild because I always identified with him already, you know, every time I watch a movie. Not the actor, the actual character.

[00:02:37] Oh yeah, I always had a... I always felt like Max Cady was a misunderstood character. Yeah, sort of the evangelical couldn't read, learn to read, studied law, learned 17th century philosophers, white supremacist, former Italian with a southern accent.

[00:03:00] Right, right. I mean if it sort of falls right in line with the folks that tend to encourage people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and this is what you get. This is what pulling yourself up by your bootstraps looks like.

[00:03:24] We've talked a lot about Scorsese recently. Yeah. So I feel like talking about De Niro may be a good idea here. For men of a certain generation, he's the actor. He's like no one can beat De Niro. Yeah, he's like the... our Meryl Streep, right?

[00:03:46] Yeah, you're right, right. He really is kind of the equivalent to Meryl Streep although that has fallen off, I think in the last maybe 20 years. You know, sort of slowly pittered out. Oh, the De Niro appreciation whereas Streep is still hanging on.

[00:04:06] Streep is as high as ever although I think she was just in Only Murdered in the Building? Yeah. So that can't help. Well you think that's bad for her? That's a very well regarded show. Her love interest was Martin Short, Steve. That's acting. That's how good she is.

[00:04:29] It's like playing opposite a horse and secretariat. Or Hot De Trot starring Bobcat Goldflate and Dabney Coleman and John Candy as the voice of Bob. Yeah, so I don't know how you feel about De Niro.

[00:04:46] I mean, I think in recent memory his work in comedy has been as prolific as anything else. Sure. It's interesting about De Niro, right? I mean like he makes an appearance in Joker, right? Like there's still... Well there's kind of an homage to himself.

[00:05:07] Well, himself and a taxi driver. Sure, right? I guess you could kind of a two combo, right? Yeah, I mean... So De Niro, I think De Niro still has the gravitas, right? I mean, I think he's...

[00:05:22] The question is has he become a caricature or is he like still just staying relevant in a way that maybe he wants to? Right? I mean, that's...

[00:05:34] I never get the sense with De Niro that even when he's doing something that we might consider like beneath him because of where we put him. It's like, well, I mean, to still maintain any level of relevance like in your 70s has got to be.

[00:05:49] It's got to be pretty remarkable, right? I mean... Yeah, did you see the Irishman? I watched enough of it. It's pretty great and you should probably watch it if ever like... If ever I have a week. You've got a plane ride to Australia or something. Right.

[00:06:14] He's pretty great in it and he's doing the De Niro thing. I don't understand why it's as long as it is. For anyone think, well, De Niro kind of lost it somewhere along the way. I felt like this is not...

[00:06:32] I wouldn't say it's as good as everything he's done but he still has the chops. Yeah, I think he does and I think he does have the commuted chops and sure he may be in some lame stuff but I mean...

[00:06:44] I think... I'd have to look back at his career. I think if we really look back... Well, you don't have to look back. I can tell you the exact moment. It was like he was Meryl Streep and then he did Rockin' Bullwinkle. That was it? It wasn't Frankenstein?

[00:07:00] Oh no, it was Rockin' Bullwinkle right then and there. It was sort of like, well, I guess that ended. That was pretty quick. It was like Russell Westbrook. Now you're just like poison. You were historically good five minutes ago.

[00:07:17] Well, but I mean to his credit, he's kind of... Was this after or before Meet the Parents? Oh, this was before. Yeah, so Meet the Parents is a good... That's great De Niro. That's great De Niro but it was like all of a sudden...

[00:07:37] We are not going to mention you in the same breath as Streep anymore. Sure, but I think he was bailed out by Pacino doing Pacino for so long too. You're not going to see Daniel De Lewis do Meet the Parents.

[00:07:51] But for De Niro it was sort of like, oh, he could do this too. That's a nice feather in his cap because we weren't sure about him anymore. Yeah, because I think Pacino had become such a caricature that it was...

[00:08:04] The concern at this point was like, well maybe De Niro is just following the same... Because the Meet the Parents thing did feel a little bit like he was kind of having fun with maybe some of his previous characters. Oh, sure.

[00:08:16] But I think that there's a self-awareness to that because he still sold it. He had really funny moments. Meet the Parents is really good and I think holds up.

[00:08:26] And I think a lot of the reason why it is funny is that we saw him in movies like Cape Fear. Right. It's almost like De Niro's filmography makes Meet the Parents even more funny. In the same way that sort of like the freshman can't work...

[00:08:43] The movie, The Freshman with Matthew Broderick. It just doesn't work unless Marlon Brando is Marlon Brando. Sure. That is the gag that he's brought. No, that makes sense. So, alright. So De Niro in... I just recently watched Bronx Tale for the first time.

[00:09:04] De Niro is just freaking amazing in this movie. He's just so good. And he's playing off-type. He is playing an Italian in the 60s or whatever but he's playing... He's not playing... He's not the heavy. He's not playing the guy in Goodfellas. He's not playing Taxi Driver.

[00:09:27] He's not doing Cape Fear. He is something different and he's really, really good. And watching this movie right after Bronx Tale, it took me back. I really remembered this guy was the gold standard for male actors for a good long 30 years.

[00:09:58] And this movie reminded me of that even though this is not my favorite movie. Okay. Yeah, I think he's fantastic in it. And I think... Because this is probably the third time I've seen Cape Fear maybe fourth. I don't like it anymore. Oh, alright.

[00:10:24] You were texting me last night. You were like, is this a good movie? I never liked it. I only saw it once. I was really disturbed by the cheek bite. Yeah. At that moment in the film I thought, this is not for me.

[00:10:45] I don't like this at all. Odd. So the cheek bite moment was to this film, like watching Da Nero and Rocky and Bullwinkle. Sure. Yeah, yeah. That was sort of the vivid image I got from the film and it was very disturbing and I never watched it again.

[00:11:06] Until yesterday I did a double feature with Cape Fear's yesterday. Yeah, I did not get a chance to watch the original or any clips from it I intended to which is really good for a podcast.

[00:11:20] Well, at least one of us did and that allows me to kind of talk a little bit about the original and you can pretend like you're interested for two minutes. Sounds great. Just like our listeners. I get to have an opportunity to be just like them.

[00:11:35] So I liked it. I like the original Cape Fear based on a novel and originally it was a Hitchcock. Hitchcock was attached enough to the film that he created the initial storyboards for the film. Then, and I don't know why but he got taken off the film.

[00:11:56] I don't know whether it was him or the studio or whatever but it was picked up by someone else who you'd never heard of. Then it really took on a film noir quality and I'm not usually a big fan of film noir.

[00:12:12] So while I enjoyed the film, it was almost like a Twilight Zone for lawyers. That's how I felt about it. I don't know if you've ever seen the original Twilight Zone series. Oh yeah.

[00:12:26] But it will take a concept and like it'll extrapolate an interesting thought exercise usually toward the weird. Well this one takes a legal concept and it extrapolates it. The legal concept is what if you have a criminal who knows the law better than anyone in the story?

[00:12:45] And he can go toe to toe with a lawyer and with a police officer. And he can walk right up to the edge of doing something illegal but then know exactly what will hold up in court and what will not.

[00:12:59] You just put the law on my hands and I'm gonna break your heart with it. I got a little plan for your wife and kids that they're never gonna forget. Never.

[00:13:13] That guy's kind of like a super villain at that point because he can operate as freely as he wants to as long as he doesn't actually break the law in such a way that you can prove it in court.

[00:13:28] This is Robert Mitchum who's playing the heavy in this film and he just comes across as someone who's physically imposing and really, really, really smart which is hard to do. So for that reason alone that film was interesting to me.

[00:13:47] Everything else about that film was kind of boring. Gregory Peck is sort of like a lawyer with a heart of gold and his wife is completely uninteresting and his daughter is unwatchable.

[00:14:01] Everything else about the film is not interesting at all except for Robert Mitchum who winds up in this movie too. And so does Gregory Peck. And Martin Balsam. I don't know if he does anything for you but he was the judge.

[00:14:21] So anyway, I did think that this, I thought Scorsese's movie was certainly an improvement on the film in at least a few ways that we can talk about but that is my sense of the film.

[00:14:34] It really feels like 62 in that it kind of feels like a 50s movie. Got it. Yeah, there are 60s movies like Cool Hand Luke that kind of feel like 70s movies. Right, right. This really feels like a 50s film noir kind of film. Mm-hmm, okay.

[00:14:53] Have you seen Martin Balsam in anything else? Let me see. Oh yeah, he was in Psycho, right? Yes and I recently watched the first two episodes of the million dollar, six million dollar man in that two part episode of Six Million Dollar Man.

[00:15:15] There's a close up of Martin Balsam's face that lasts at least 20 minutes of that 40 minute show. Whoever the director was was just fascinated with the Martin Balsam. That's amazing.

[00:15:30] Fun fact, he was actually the original voice of Hal from 2001 but Kubrick decided to go another direction by the time he hit the theater. Why is choice? But that would have been interesting. So a couple things about the original that made it into this film.

[00:15:51] A lot of things that are different. Did Robert Mitchum also watch Problem Child? Was that the John Ritter movie? Yeah, he did. No, he did not. And clearly that movie was just really tickled DeNiro. DeNiro just thought that that was a good thing.

[00:16:15] I didn't want to show just what a psychopath he is. I like that. Alright, so Scorsese's a filmmaker, right? And he's thinking like, I need a guy who's going to basically be who the devil is to Job. What would really torment me?

[00:16:33] Well if I'm watching Problem Child with John Ritter and there was a guy in the front row smoking a cigar and laughing in a way that ruined my movie going experience. That's right. That guy's Satan. That is how he gets introduced to the Nolte family.

[00:16:51] The first thing he does to drive these people nuts is get it to the point where they have to leave Problem Child early. Problem Child 2 comes out later and they're just like, I don't know what's going on. The monster. No.

[00:17:11] Because you know John Ritter's not going to be with us much longer. Could you imagine that the Problem Child series is ruined for you? They're like, hey, two came out, we could rent it and they're like, I'm not ready. Whenever I see John Ritter, I smell cigar smoke.

[00:17:26] I hear that horrible laugh in my mind. Did you ever see Problem Child? No, but I really want to now. I kind of feel like it kind of deserves the Howard treatment. Maybe that's a theme we can do is movies within movies.

[00:17:43] Movies that were shown in other movies is a great... It gives us a chance to talk about two movies really and like why was that in that? Okay, a couple scenes that were in the original movie.

[00:17:56] You've got the scene with the car keys that's cribbed directly from the original. It really is sort of like how do I trap someone in their own car? If I can reach in their window, stand right outside their car door so they can't open it.

[00:18:13] Take the keys. What are you going to do? It's a big power move because it makes the safety of your own possession questionable. It gives them power over his own shelter and escape. You can't roll up the window.

[00:18:29] If you make the move to get out on the passenger side, you've already lost. The power is fully in the hands of the guy with the car keys. You're trapped in your own security meaning that you're not safe anywhere. It's a great scene in both movies.

[00:18:46] It works in both movies even though they're 30 years apart. It really does give you a sense of helplessness. Especially if at this point, Nolte still has the veneer of a man of polite society. I'm not going to... Especially in the place that I work.

[00:19:09] I'm coming out of my office where I go in with a suit and tie. I'm not going to get in a shouting match with Robert De Niro in the parking lot. It really effectively introduces these kind of butt-sees two characters against each other.

[00:19:24] It establishes De Niro as the kind of guy who knows that you put social limitations on yourself. He's going to take those to his advantage. Which is the original movie in spades. That is exactly what the original movie does. There's a similar chokehold that De Niro does.

[00:19:50] That was in the original. The rock and the hand on Cape Fear. And then Houseboat and both. And then of course it's Scorsese. So technically speaking, it's going to be really good. Even though it's not my bag. But you didn't like this.

[00:20:14] Maybe we should let you talk about that. Since I don't have the original to compare it to, the sense I was getting is that certain camera angles and certainly musical choices were Scorsese doing some really on-the-nose homage. Yeah, you're right. It was the same exact score.

[00:20:37] To the point where it's like, I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Because you're clearly updating this and giving it a much more gruesome and vulgar and just like more graphic depiction of all the things that are probably not as such in the original.

[00:21:03] So there was a need to do that or a desire to, to create this for a modern audience with a real emphasis on the graphic nature of all this. But I'm going to still try to make it like an old movie.

[00:21:21] Well, and not only that, this is music for film noir. Sure. But what you've done is you've updated it in such a way that it does not present as film noir. So the score certainly doesn't match the film.

[00:21:39] Although I'm wondering like, Scorsese is famous for like just dropping the Rolling Stones into weird places in movies. Right, right. I'm just thinking like, give me shelter in this film. Like where would that fit?

[00:21:56] Well, I was already confused when he's got the video for Ben Cott stealing playing on the daughter's TV. But she's playing Guns N' Roses in the background. I'm like, what are you doing? What's happening here? Scorsese really makes weird musical choices.

[00:22:12] Yeah, I wonder what this movie would be like if you just changed the score. Well, the score is one thing because the score was obnoxious. I mean, it was obnoxious.

[00:22:23] And I started getting irritated and I understand that's supposed to kind of give you a certain sense of like unease, but not, you shouldn't be uneasy about the movie. Like you shouldn't be like, I'm mad at you movie. Which I was getting at.

[00:22:38] And so, and so I guess that was my thing is just the incongruity of it. I'm like every time he would do like a camera angle or a weird close up or something that would, you know,

[00:22:51] or we're going to get X-ray into Jessica Lange's nostrils for whatever reason. Every time you'd make that choice, it would, it did like when directors do this, right? There's nothing necessarily new under the sun. I watch Winning Time, which is the whole story of the Lakers.

[00:23:10] And so they often time go to like grainy almost like old television quality or VHS quality to try to invoke that. And it happens periodically, but it does it in a way that feels like I know it's stylistic,

[00:23:22] but I never felt taken out of it because it just, it was just done with like a deaf touch and it was, I kind of appreciated it a little bit.

[00:23:29] And when Tarantino does it, sometimes it's so tongue in cheek and you kind of know it's a Tarantino thing. So maybe I'm just more conditioned to it. But I feel like it many cases it enhances the experience because there is a playful quality to some of these things,

[00:23:43] even if they're heavier. But Scorsese doesn't have that. Like that's not, Scorsese is like more often than not painfully serious. And so when he's making these noir choices or these throwback decisions, it's like, I just got out.

[00:24:00] Like every time it would happen because I'm like you're making a movie that's intentionally modern. And there are moments the scene where he's sitting on the gate or fence area and the fireworks. That's gorgeous. It's a gorgeous sequence, but it's just undercut by score.

[00:24:14] And then I feel like it's undercut by like a following scene where that just feels super, you know, like throwbacky. And then you'll have a scene and then it's just like so graphic at the same time.

[00:24:25] I'm like, well, what is this? Is this a tribute? Is this an improvement? Is this retelling? I mean, obviously there's, it sounds like there's much more complexity with the Bowdoin character in terms of the first two films

[00:24:39] or the first film in this one because, like I said, lawyer with the heart of gold, this lawyer is much more flawed. Yeah, exactly. So I wanted to talk about the lawyer with the heart of gold thing.

[00:24:48] So the original film, Gregory Peck does play a lawyer and the reason why the Max Kelly character is coming after him, not because he used to be his lawyer, but because one day in Baltimore this particular lawyer was on the street

[00:25:06] and he saw this criminal assaulting a woman. So he was a witness at the trial and that's what really made him a target. Now, he was in jail for something like eight years and he decided he's going to go after the witness who happens to be a lawyer.

[00:25:24] Oh, okay. So it's sort of like I studied the law as a self-made man in jail and you studied the law formally, but we're up against each other because sort of happenstances brought us together. In this film, Nolte is always sort of on the edge of being dirty.

[00:25:44] Almost having an affair. Yeah, he's had a couple tennis dates, but just so much so that he can tell his wife that nothing happened. You get the sense as a father, there's that one scene where it's like, is he going to assault this child? Right.

[00:26:02] So he's always on the edge of being a villain and same thing as a lawyer. It's like, yes, of course I buried this particular file, but I did so for the greater good.

[00:26:12] So it's sort of like I did something a little bit murky ethically and it's absolutely illegal what I did, but I did so for a better reason. And then you basically, you get, Satan comes into the story and Satan says,

[00:26:27] yeah, I see you flirting with the dark side. I'm going to drag you toward the dark side with me. And to me, that's a much more interesting story than the original. Yeah, I definitely think that the story is a compelling one.

[00:26:42] And I think, I mean the religious themes throughout are very intriguing. And they're not subtle. No, no, and especially what I liked was there was clearly a critique on the American judicial system having some sort of a reliance on sort of Judeo-Christian ethics.

[00:27:06] And so much so that I feel like it's a critique of both religion and the law in the sense that we're like, we can sit there on both sides and be like, well, wait a minute.

[00:27:18] What Nolte's character did is the right thing, but at the same time he took an oath to do it this way. And in a sense that that's kind of the same way that maybe, especially if Scorsese is looking through a Catholic perspective,

[00:27:31] and you talked about through the departed, the sense of doing the right thing and maintaining your oath may be incongruous with the greater good in some sense. Well, on top of that, at least the way we see it.

[00:27:45] You know, like we just shit all over this movie, but in praise of this movie, you could read it as a critique of patriarchy, by way of rape culture. You could see it as a critique of the South. You could see it as a critique of Christianity.

[00:28:03] You could see it as a critique of the judicial system. So I could imagine someone really enjoying this movie because of those critiques who aren't taken out by those other things we were talking about. Well, and I think I should be one of those people.

[00:28:21] You know what I mean? And I think that's maybe one of the might be one of the reasons why I was a little more frustrated with it is because there were a lot of things in there. I'm like, I should I should be liking this more.

[00:28:31] I should be more interested in this than I am. So would more John Ritter have helped? Well, I think less would have because what happens is I'm like, well, now you got me. You got me sad.

[00:28:43] They didn't know it at the time because now you want to go rewatch all of John Ritter's film. Yeah, I need to I need to dive into the John Ritter filmography.

[00:28:55] So yeah, so I mean, I and it's funny because I didn't really get a chance I think until after the movie to put a lot of those things together because I think I was just kind of just not really enjoying it.

[00:29:08] I think it's like it was a bit of a trudge as I was going through it. So then later I was like, oh, there's some good stuff there and but then there then it's like, well yeah, but then do I really need Robert DeNiro speaking in tongues to death.

[00:29:21] I don't know. It's a choice. It's a choice. Did you see the rat crawl over his forehead as he was going down. Exactly.

[00:29:35] All right, so I feel like the last time we talked about Scorsese was that a parted and we one of the things we were saying was that does he ever write women, you know, compelling women.

[00:29:47] Does he ever write parts that are compelling for you know female actors and watching these movies back to back. I feel like I really need to kind of, I know me a culpa here because in the original film, the wife was just really boring. The daughter was just.

[00:30:08] Oh gosh she was just a nightmare to watch. I think these it just it just reminds you it wasn't that long ago that women on screen were just one dimensional or however you want to say it.

[00:30:22] But in this film, I kind of felt like every character was kind of flawed and the flaws made the characters a little bit more interesting.

[00:30:33] I don't know. I felt like the women in this film made it a lot more interesting for me in comparison to the original film. So Jessica Laying, I usually am not a huge fan. I thought she was pretty greatness. Yeah. Juliet Lewis amazing just. She's great.

[00:30:56] Just freaking amazing. So I don't know. I guess I'm just gonna say just for a moment, Scorsese gets a little bit of credit in a way that I didn't think he deserved.

[00:31:08] Well, I think maybe he deserves credit for for making women more interesting than directors in the 60s did. I mean, if that's if that's the if that's the praise we're going to heap. Sure. Wait, no, no, come on. Yeah, no.

[00:31:23] I'm saying more than I'm saying that Juliet Lewis was amazing. Are you saying that I think Julia Lewis was an amazing.

[00:31:29] Given amazing performance, but this is the I don't think Scorsese necessarily gets the credit for that in terms of being able to say that he does women better. Every woman in this thing is a victim. Every single one of them.

[00:31:42] Every single I mean look, no, he's a victim here too. But yeah, but they're also but he's he's still in charge.

[00:31:49] I mean, he's still the one like that's I mean he's a victim like I said, I think he's a victim by Katie, but they're all victims by him. I think that this is a film that consciously is trying to critique patriarchy.

[00:32:03] Right, I agree. I also think that it misses the mark a little bit because I think it in a way you can make the argument that says patriarchy is a problem because women can't do anything about it. And that that's that's different than saying patriarchy holds women captive.

[00:32:23] Now I think that there are moments of critique for sure where the clerk basically says look, I know what what women go through on this you know because we already sort of saw that with the file that said she was promiscuous the original victim.

[00:32:36] And so like that's a compelling thing. So I like that I felt like was like a good window into understanding why sometimes women don't speak up and just to note on that.

[00:32:47] That is an homage to the original film but in the original film that same discussion it kind of happens in a man explaining kind of way.

[00:32:57] It's like, it's you know, it's like the wife who has no idea about the law is trying to explain why they should follow the law and the husband who's a lawyer who's going to decide to work outside the law says, yeah, but I've seen this happen.

[00:33:12] And he has to basically man the entire, you know, situation of rape cultures to his wife. And anyway, so I did like the choice to wink to that but do it in a way that was a little bit less mansplaining.

[00:33:29] No, no, no, and I so I think the effort was there I guess I'm just I'm just saying I think that the like the daughter, the Juliette Lewis is I mean like she's, I understand there's this whole like you know kind of budding sexuality and this and that but I

[00:33:45] mean, I don't know if I totally buy the sense that she would still be somewhat interested in the guy that might have killed their dog.

[00:33:53] But I in that scene, deniro who's an adult and seemingly as conniving as the devil convinces her that he he's been misunderstood he did not kill the dog he would never kill a dog that's a horrible thing that happened.

[00:34:15] And I in that scene I do believe that deniro is compelling enough and charismatic enough of a personality that he could fool 15 year old girl.

[00:34:27] Sure 15 year old good yeah yeah so I mean it and and I think she's fantastic I think that that's, I think maybe maybe score says he does a good job of portraying 15 year old girls better than maybe adult women. I did.

[00:34:42] I will say look you're not going to make me like that performance any less now. I know I think you know I could show with you that maybe score says he doesn't get the credit for it.

[00:34:52] But I will say that I that was a critique I made of him, you know last time and after watching this film I think maybe I should take that back.

[00:35:00] My thing is at the end of this movie score says he I feel like I'm more like more scores says he wants me to be more invested in the women only in regards to how they relate to Nick Nolte's character, as opposed to existing beyond you know what

[00:35:22] I mean maybe that's where I stand that like it's still as flawed as Nick Nolte is we're still everything's kind of through his lens and and I don't know I feel like I think it's better. Yeah, what I said before.

[00:35:38] I think holds I think this is a story about someone who's flirting with sin, and then you bring the devil into the picture and the devil says, I'm going to take you all the way to the dark side with me. And if that's the story that's selling it.

[00:35:54] It's a story about two men, and then right then you've got these auxiliary characters who are women, which you know you could say the same thing about 90% of all movies right so.

[00:36:06] I just I don't know that I mean I'm not sure that I'm ready to do the miac culpa on the score say thing based on this film necessarily.

[00:36:15] Because you could make also the argument that yeah we're going to do the devil versus this man and at the core of it rape is used as a prop. And if that's the case, then I think that that's sort of missing.

[00:36:29] Oh, I would say rape is more than a prop in this movie. I feel like it's kind of integral to the plot and I feel like there is a discussion of is our legal system even set up to help women.

[00:36:43] I think that that was I was no I think that that I think it's certainly in there.

[00:36:47] There was absolutely a theme in the first movie, and I think that this movie handled it even better than the first movie. And I don't know a lot of movies that try to handle, you know, try to take that on.

[00:37:00] No, I then I think that that was that was it was fairly done. It was responsible in that regard but at the end of the day like this is a movie about two dudes. That's true. Yeah, we agree on that.

[00:37:11] So I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at right and so it's just from if I was going to do if I was going to do my best job and not a very good job but my best job of doing like maybe a feminist reading on this movie I might say, Oh okay cool once again.

[00:37:23] We're going to talk about women's issues but we're going to need a couple of dudes to fight about it.

[00:37:28] Well, and that's how I feel this this podcast is about I think that's why I think it's for sure this people tune in to hear a couple or at least talk about ducks from space. I honestly look, it's not my life. I'm only an observer.

[00:37:47] So I will say this I will say this like so so Heather hated this movie. She was with her for a bit but she didn't like it before or so she was reluctantly even in the room.

[00:37:56] But we both agreed that as as uncomfortable as the scene with DaNero and Juliet Lewis in the theater basement is. It's the best directed moment in the entire film. Because there's no loud score. There's no funky angles.

[00:38:15] Scorsese sort of just let these two really, really good actors perform together. You're not going to hurt me. I'm not going to hurt you at all. There's no hurting here, DaNero. Between us there's no anger, nothing. Just a search for truth. I mean did you judge me?

[00:38:36] Did you get angry at me when you called me smoking the grass? No. But your parents they judged you. They got plenty angry at you didn't they? Yeah. They punished you for their sins.

[00:38:50] You gotta give Scorsese some credit obviously you know you're directing these two you're putting them in the right situation to succeed but I think it's kind of fascinating that

[00:38:58] the most like kind of unnerving to me I mean you like obviously the cheek sequence and all that because of the violence is so upsetting.

[00:39:08] But this is very unnerving and it does so much to really give you I think a real good glimpse of how villainous this person is. And Scorsese was able to do it without X-ray specs or loud noises.

[00:39:27] And to me that I think that scene took me out of the movie because it brought me into a movie I'd rather watch. Yeah, that's a good point. Is there a cliche atrope or device that you enjoyed in this movie? I love a good prison pull up.

[00:39:45] I love exercising in yourself. He was exercising right up until the moment he left. Yeah. He didn't pack his stuff. He didn't take down his pictures of Mussolini. All he really focused on was getting his comically gigantic cigar. What was it?

[00:40:06] Now I wrote down a few things that were on his wall here. He has a book that says eat right stay fit. He's got pictures of Nietzsche and Stalin and superheroes. He he's got a picture of General Lee.

[00:40:23] He's got a Bible and he's got a bunch of legal textbooks. And then of course his tattoos, the scales of justice. Truth on one side and the sword on the other side. Truth and justice are balanced. And then we go right into the John Ritter movie.

[00:40:43] So I thought that was fantastic. What do you think about the De Niro accent? The Southern accent? It's funny because it's like I'm like well I guess that's what De Niro would be like with the Southern accent. I thought it was really decent.

[00:40:59] And I thought when I first heard it I thought oh no I'm gonna hate this. Because the whole time I'm gonna think you're Robert De Niro. You don't have a Southern accent.

[00:41:08] I just recently re-watched The Big Chill and Kevin Klein has a Southern accent that's just so bad. It's so bad. I love a bad accent in a movie though. I mean I will love it.

[00:41:24] Maybe in a movie that's not supposed to be good like The Big Chill is revered. Cape Fear, I think it's a movie I enjoy when I'm not watching.

[00:41:32] Because it's like I think about it and I'm like oh it's one of those where you put all the pieces together or you deconstruct it like this. And I'm like why didn't I like this? Okay look here's what you could do.

[00:41:47] Because I've seen it four times and I just tend to not. Here's what you could do with this movie.

[00:41:51] You could pull out eight De Niro scenes from this movie and show me them back to back and I would think oh this is like one of the most amazing performances of all time. This guy is one of our great actors.

[00:42:07] And you put all of those eight scenes in this movie and I walk away thinking not my favorite. Is it Nolte? Is it the Nolte problem? This is when Nolte is considered the sexiest man alive according to People magazine. So I mean this is peak Nolte.

[00:42:25] For sure this is peak Nolte. Is there a tweak that you would do to this movie to improve it? Well I think like for sure the sound choices, score choices. And I would be curious like you said if there was none of that or less of it.

[00:42:44] Like what would that do? Would it take it from me from like maybe a C minus experience to a C plus or would it go higher? I think it would be an improvement. But I think I would still have issues.

[00:42:57] It's a lot and I think what happens is that by the end of it, I kind of like I'm sticking into the houseboat just because it's like I've come this far. And it's like he's, he can't be killed.

[00:43:16] It's like now it's like almost feels like a horror movie. So it's like I'm like what am I watching right? He could, I mean Jason goes through very similar things right? I mean he gets caught on fire, it gets thrown in the water.

[00:43:31] Well he says in this movie, he says I dedicated myself to making myself something that was more than human. I think this movie means to portray him as the devil. As the devil. And you know what?

[00:43:46] I got on this soapbox last time and I felt vindicated watching this movie. There's no theological overtones or undertones in the original movie. The thing that Scorsese introduced to this movie that was not in the original was the healthy.

[00:44:06] I'm Virgil Counter and I'm gotten used to the gates of hell. We are now in the mad circle, the circle of traitors. Traitors to country, traitors to fellow man, traitors to God. You sir-art charge would betray in the principles of all trade.

[00:44:23] Can you please quote to me the American Bar Association's rules of professional condo cannon seven? The Bible represented, you've got the speaking in tongues at the end and on the boat he says that we're going to go to the ninth circle of hell. Again I felt vindicated.

[00:44:43] This is what preoccupies Scorsese. He is preoccupied with hell and these are the characters that are going to hell. And Cape Fear is probably one of his most joyless rides right to hell. There's not a lot of...

[00:44:59] When you're relying on a problem child scene for the comic relief and it's not even a funny part of the movie, he's just finding out how trashed his house is. If you had to go to hell, you're on a highway to hell.

[00:45:13] And you have Nick Nolte sitting in the passenger seat. That doesn't improve the experience right? Is this sexiest man alive Nick Nolte or current is that Gary Bucey? That's more of an indictment on the state of America than it is saying something true about Nick Nolte.

[00:45:34] This is when we lost our taste generally. This is the same year they came out with clear Pepsi. We just were just grasping at straws. That clear Pepsi won sexy is soda alive. Steve, is this movie better or worse or on par with a Ron Howard movie?

[00:46:02] This is interesting. This is probably the most compelling question right because on one hand I go I don't know that Ron Howard pulls this off with these themes in a way that is as effectively upsetting right? I could have done without a couple of the upsetting.

[00:46:25] Oh for sure and so here's what I would say. I would say probably technically it's a Howard plus two but for me it's a Howard minus two. This is kind of like when I'm watching gymnastics and technically all the judges say that was a 10 out of 10.

[00:46:48] And I'm sitting there thinking to my untrained eye sure fine 10 out of 10 but it doesn't make me like watching gymnastics anymore. I think that technically speaking yes this is Scorsese he's one of our great filmmakers. It's not like I would have chosen different camera angles.

[00:47:12] I don't know enough to say it but I could recognize a few things that I just didn't enjoy and so for me in my experience probably Howard minus two.

[00:47:28] Okay so I think we're probably equally yoked in this right like technically probably a I mean he got these performances out of these people right. A director has to get some credit right I think. Look if I just take the eight DeNiro scenes out of this.

[00:47:44] Yeah yeah then I'm looking at like a Howard plus four right. Right the whole pack there's something about the entire package that just was a misfire for me.

[00:47:55] Yeah and I think it's just I mean and I get I don't mind a movie that's sort of a joyless descent into madness you know that but I think just overall there was just too many sequences that it just didn't make it a very watchable flag.

[00:48:17] Was Sarah half the battle one to grow on moment in this movie. I mean move. I think it's sort of like I mean I know he could follow you but like at some point.

[00:48:33] I think that Square says he's trying to say something like like nobody's righteous like we're all dirty. Whether you think you're a good Christian or a good lawyer or a good Southerner or a good male or whatever.

[00:48:48] You got your hands dirty and you are therefore susceptible to the devil like the devil is going to get you because of this. Almost like just don't believe in a system right like whether it's organized religion or whether whether it's it's the law.

[00:49:06] Don't don't be fool enough to think that either of these have your best interest in your protection in mind. Steve you and I are writing a screenplay together. Is there anything about this movie that you'd like to include in our movie. A little Ritter like a houseboat.

[00:49:23] You've been on a houseboat. There's something about a houseboat that I've built up in my mind. In fact sometimes when I think of like what it would I would do with unlimited money. It would absolutely include a houseboat.

[00:49:38] I've never been on a houseboat and it's probably miserable but for me it feels like Venice like I've never been to Venice. I'm sure there's a lot of things about Venice not desirable but I've romanticized the houseboat. No I have not. I've been on one. It wasn't moving.

[00:49:57] Nothing's great about it. Did you just feel like a tiny house. Yeah it felt like it's like oh cool a tiny house that kind of makes me a little nauseous. All right I like boats a lot more than you do.

[00:50:09] Yeah so that could be like water more than I did. I love being near or around the ocean. I've recently you know spent about four hours on a sailboat with a friend.

[00:50:24] There were nauseous moments for sure so you got you got to be able to like that enough. Yeah I like a houseboat in a movie. I like the idea of a houseboat. So why not. I like tattoos. That's kind of how I feel.

[00:50:43] That's how I feel about books. I like books. I like the idea of books. Okay good so for me it's houseboats for you it's books. I like tattoos that tell me something about the theme of a movie. Okay.

[00:50:58] Tell me something about this person without having to explain it to me. A tattoo is a good way into that right. If I found your dead body washed up on an ocean and then I saw your tattoo I'd be like

[00:51:13] yeah I would have been friends with this guy. Okay well like that. Yeah kind of like a way of bumper sticker lets me know if I want to. The bumper sticker still doesn't do it because I always think did you buy this car used

[00:51:26] and just didn't take off the bumper sticker. That tells me a lot too. It tells me something else. A tattoo I mean I guess you could say this guy got drunk and got a tattoo on a dare.

[00:51:40] You know this is exactly the kind of tattoo that his friend was talking about. Yeah which probably wouldn't be the case with me. I got hammered and on a dare I sat in the chair for ten and a half hours. This guy hammered all day long.

[00:51:54] Blackout drunk on the verge of death he was getting his stomach pumped and then they just put ink on him. I think we got ourselves a podcast. I believe so. And now you've got to go go Robert De Niro on a Toyota dealership.

[00:52:09] Yeah I just got several texts from Heather during this whole thing basically saying that whatever I did. You made it worse. Did enough so they're getting her alone. Oh good fantastic. I was pretty alpha this morning.

[00:52:26] Well you had just seen Cape Fear and you were inspired by Max Cady. Yeah I kept on calling the technician at the collision center counselor. He says is this you Mr. Osborne? I said maybe it's the big bad wolf. According to 17th century philosophers.

[00:52:53] Come out come out wherever you are. If someone ever recommended a book of the Bible for me to read I guarantee you I'm not going to read it.

[00:54:20] And a cocoon of horror. OK David this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black. John my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting?

[00:54:44] I thought this is where HBO wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff. Don't worry I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore.

[00:54:57] It was made for the Lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping season one we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:55:05] And with the season pass option and supercast listeners can get early ad free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[00:55:16] See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot but probably positive takes.