#56 - Dune: Part 2 (2024)

[00:00:00] Howard fans, today we're doing a one-off podcast related to the movie Dune 2. I loved Dune Part 2 and I've been begging Steve to go see it so we could do a one-off podcast about it and finally did and that is what we're doing today.

[00:00:37] I want to say first that I feel somewhat responsible for almost peer-pressuring you into seeing this in an IMAX

[00:00:48] and kind of fully knowing like you're gonna have a whole different experience and maybe you'll be built up for I think that in my text I really built you up for this movie

[00:01:00] and the consequence as we've talked about several times is that when you're built up for something it doesn't quite land for you.

[00:01:10] Yeah. And so that was the risk for me to say look you have to see this in the IMAX.

[00:01:16] I was taking a risk that maybe you weren't going to fully enjoy the movie as much as I did. So we have not talked about this, I'm getting your first impression of Dune 2 now.

[00:01:31] Yeah well so I've seen Dune Part 1 I think three maybe four times like three and a half times I think.

[00:01:41] And you know Heather and I gave it a shot and she had no, no I don't even, she may have known, I think she may have seen some of the David Lynch Dune.

[00:01:53] So there was some like alright let's give this thing a shot and we both loved it visually great.

[00:02:00] Yeah captivated by some of the hard sci-fi as well as the world building.

[00:02:06] And so you know I was ready for Part 2.

[00:02:14] Re-watched Part 1 right before like so the evening before I went to go see it.

[00:02:21] I sat in bed and watched this at like two in the morning and Dune Part 1 is a movie that having seen it like three and a half times I think every time I watch it I go have I seen this movie?

[00:02:31] It's interesting because like I'll recognize all the things that are going on but like there's something about it that I don't know if it's the complexity or what but there's something about it that like it goes in and unless you're showing it to me again I'm like I don't, yeah I guess.

[00:02:52] But I really like it so that's a, it's kind of a weird way to say it like a movie. I think it's just and maybe it's just a lot I don't know.

[00:03:01] So going into Part 2 fresh off of Part 1 was an interesting go right I mean obviously you built it up everybody I know is built it up it's not just you there's like you know good gracious and you saw it twice so you went to the theater twice and you hate doing things so that means a lot.

[00:03:20] And so I was like and I happened to be where I was staying for a weekend of shows I was like three minutes away from an IMAX.

[00:03:31] So my thought was I have all day to kill in sunny vale of all places why not take three hours of it and just go to IMAX.

[00:03:44] So so it wasn't so much like I went like okay he says I have to go to IMAX I changed my lifestyle for this. It just sort of worked out.

[00:03:53] And the seats are really comfortable.

[00:03:56] Oh no you fell asleep.

[00:03:58] No, no but I was very cozy.

[00:04:03] Got myself a nice tall beer nurse that did go to the bathroom once.

[00:04:10] I timed it I think I missed not quite two minutes I was I was going at a quick pace and I think nothing from what I gathered there was nothing that I missed of substance.

[00:04:23] So my initial take when I left it was like I don't know if I liked it interesting.

[00:04:28] I don't know if I liked it and so I had to sit on it. I think I told you I got to sit on this for a bit.

[00:04:35] So I wasn't so the interesting thing for you like when you went and saw it you were like you were going telling it on the mountain as soon as you saw it.

[00:04:43] Oh I was just in love with it from the yes, yes and I it wasn't like I wasn't built up for it.

[00:04:52] I just I don't know it was sort of like one of those like this is why this is why you would even try to make a movie because you because once in every 200 times.

[00:05:06] Once in every 200 swings you could actually accomplish something like this.

[00:05:11] That's how much I loved it so you what was it about that initial reaction and what you're thinking maybe this isn't for me.

[00:05:19] I think the shift from hero you're invested in to anti hero.

[00:05:29] I think for me looking back like I haven't I actually do like the shift I like what the movie does and what it's saying by the time it's over.

[00:05:40] And I like I like complicated you know hero a complicated ending and heroes probably not even I mean the right word at this point.

[00:05:49] I think there was something for me was just missing in that transition.

[00:05:53] Interesting.

[00:05:55] Like I felt like I had to do the reverse engineering to say oh that's what's happening like I know it's like I understand what's happening but like you spend so much time on this journey that when that when he like when it switches for him.

[00:06:09] When you know Paul essentially becomes you know sort of evil Jesus yeah evil Jesus yeah it suddenly like he becomes like David Koresh in a sense right and and and I just I'm like because I was a part of this.

[00:06:26] Wait when did that happen like where where was the where was that like it felt it felt it felt somewhat abrupt yeah and I might need another watch to to you know take that in but like that was my.

[00:06:39] That was my gun against my head reaction was like OK he's that now as opposed to look where we're going you know what I mean so I think that was my only issue is that it's so interesting because I think some people when they see something like that coming it kind of ruins the surprise for them.

[00:06:59] You're saying that maybe you wanted a little bit more foreshadowing.

[00:07:04] I think that it's more of the transition like some the like sort of the him making that transfer I don't need to foreshadow the whole movies were shattering right.

[00:07:14] Right.

[00:07:15] And I just it was it was an interesting moment because I'm like well what like he felt like he was being manipulated at one point and I'm like oh I wonder if this manipulation is going to work.

[00:07:27] And then it just seemed like he was not manipulated.

[00:07:30] He was just like yeah let's do that.

[00:07:33] And I guess I guess I had shades of revenge of the Sith interesting where I'm like I know this is this is fine to go here but where is the where is my moment of like yeah I get it.

[00:07:49] I get it.

[00:07:50] I get it.

[00:07:51] Like I mean obviously revenge of the Sith goes from being like I hate sand to I'm killing children that's abrupt.

[00:08:00] I don't like sand.

[00:08:02] It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere not like here.

[00:08:13] Here everything is soft and smooth.

[00:08:19] Well let me ask you this have you ever been around sand?

[00:08:23] Oh I yeah I mean I we live you know 20 minutes from the beach.

[00:08:27] You can it's going to take a lot to get me to get into the sand.

[00:08:33] Have you ever been around children?

[00:08:35] Oh yeah I live close to children.

[00:08:38] Shall we revisit that previous stuff?

[00:08:40] Yeah that's good that's a good point.

[00:08:42] Yeah if you mix them together.

[00:08:44] The whole time he's walking into the Jedi temple there's like still like a little bit of sand in his boot.

[00:08:50] You know what if one kid looks at me wrong it's over.

[00:08:54] All right this I've heard other people say this very thing and I think they're probably right that there is something missing in the transition and for some reason I didn't trip on this.

[00:09:10] Well you knew it was coming right?

[00:09:11] Well I had.

[00:09:13] How much of the story are you aware?

[00:09:15] Yeah I'm not a book reader at all.

[00:09:17] I just I had heard other people say look hey man this is not your typical Messiah tropey experience.

[00:09:25] You should wait because it's actually going to get really complicated so I kind of took from that that Frank Herbert books are meant to almost subvert that kind of white savior thing.

[00:09:38] So I was kind of waiting for that from what I can gather and of course I'm not a book person on this but you know when he goes into the coma after drinking the water of life.

[00:09:53] In the books that's supposed to be like a long time.

[00:09:57] Yeah like months right?

[00:09:58] And when he comes out of that he can literally see a number of different possible futures.

[00:10:08] So he's sort of like.

[00:10:11] Dr. Strange.

[00:10:13] Yeah he's Dr. Strange at that point so you could imagine that does change his motives and the things that he cares about.

[00:10:22] So at that point I think oh now he knows that he has to pretend to be the Messiah.

[00:10:29] So I didn't view it as a full change in his character and this is where I think my son and I differ on this in this conversation we've talked about this quite a bit is I kind of feel like.

[00:10:41] I don't know if I fully believe that he believes that he's the Messiah at this point.

[00:10:47] He just sees that all right politically speaking I'm going to have to lean into the religion in order to get the outcome that I want.

[00:10:57] And so I didn't necessarily need to believe that he's undergone some sort of massive transformation in terms of character motivation.

[00:11:07] It's just that he sees so many different possibilities.

[00:11:10] But so many people have voiced your concern that I think that it's probably a really warranted and maybe fatal flaw of the movie.

[00:11:22] Yeah because I think is that I'll be honest I don't like I didn't actually finish the 84 noon.

[00:11:30] I watched enough of it because like I wanted to watch and like to compare it to the part one because I kind of wanted to let this part one part two the villain story be my the story that I'm becoming fully aware of noon.

[00:11:46] So I watched like to a certain point of the 84 just to kind of do a comparison which is very different.

[00:11:53] But so I didn't know this was coming and I'll be honest.

[00:11:59] So I got into this part two and I was having this is actually really a good experience later like because I was like I don't I don't have it in me for another white savior story.

[00:12:14] Right. Yeah that's that was that was me sitting in the theater going.

[00:12:19] All right last Samurai this better be really good effects.

[00:12:24] And so I think there was maybe that might have also colored my journey.

[00:12:31] So I wasn't I was maybe not fully invested because there was a part of me that's just like here we like all right.

[00:12:38] And then when it when it flips and basically becomes a critique of the white savior narrative.

[00:12:45] I might have not I might not have been fully as fully engaged in that transitional period as I should have been because I was still sort of like skeptical overall because I didn't realize it was going to turn the the trope on its head.

[00:13:01] So that might also be part of it right so that's why I think I'm actually like excited now to watch it again.

[00:13:08] And see it now look specifically for that transitional period.

[00:13:12] But like and so I think there is compelling things to discuss right I think I think to your point like maybe were you and your son are not seeing it on all that's kind of like that's that's part of what you should be talking about right.

[00:13:23] Well what is yeah is is he is he motivated by power is he motivated by all these visions and says hey look this is a this is a means to an end and then they're all pawns in the greater scheme of things.

[00:13:37] Is it dude I drank some ayahuasca now I'm Aaron Rodgers and I say weird stuff you know like I don't know like there's a lot of.

[00:13:45] There's a lot of options right and that's what makes it compelling but at the end of the day what ended up happening is your your hope or the person that you were rooting for to to you know whether it be lead with humility or accept this mantle like

[00:14:02] I mean it's it's all there right the father's like hey he's like I don't want to lead I don't want to take over and he's just like look at sometimes it finds you.

[00:14:09] Well this is a much different take on that right like he kind of does snatch it like it's offered but then he snatches it and it's it's the interesting moment because you have this terminator to vision of an apocalyptic future

[00:14:24] but this time Sarah Connor is like yeah let it burn.

[00:14:26] Yeah yeah I mean I was thinking about this a lot in terms of subverting the Lord of the Rings story you know it just I shouldn't have to say that Lord of the Rings kind of influences almost everything and fantasy sci-fi after it

[00:14:43] but it is almost as if what if Aragorn reforges the sword and becomes you know Bizarro Superman.

[00:14:55] Right and to me that's fascinating and oh sure I was not really on board with that it was the first Dune 2021 but I was ready for it this time around

[00:15:09] and I just kept on waiting for it to happen and so in anticipation for that I think I didn't quite trip on that thing.

[00:15:19] I do want to talk about something else related did you were you invested in the Paul Atreides and Shawnee Love Story?

[00:15:33] Yeah I think so.

[00:15:34] Yeah I think that they did that really well that's another one of those things where it's like how many movies are going to play with my emotions with young love

[00:15:44] but man I really bought in.

[00:15:50] Well and it was really good like there's a very complex dynamic right because you've got like she's in a group that doesn't believe any of this other like the religious side of it.

[00:16:00] He's there almost specifically because his people advocating for him are specifically doing it on the religious aspect.

[00:16:10] So he's kind of caught in between two worlds and either one is his world right like the divisions amongst the people that he's trying to kind of simulate with is it sort of tears at his identity

[00:16:24] and he you know and so there's a survival mechanism that's in there.

[00:16:29] So there's like then there's then there's like a true I think an actual romantic part of this.

[00:16:34] So then when it becomes when he and that's I think the effective way to really help you in the audience perspective to know that he's fully like whether it's political ambition whether it's belief in his own press

[00:16:49] whether it's simply you know he's not as good as we thought he's willing to put that aside take this next step to rule and then like so Shani becomes a vehicle for the movie to get us to really get that emotional gravity right

[00:17:07] and I guess in the book that's not the case.

[00:17:09] Yeah I think she's more like a cheerleader in the book.

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:14] So she sort of kind of goes along with it into the degree that it's like OK well this is the way it has to be.

[00:17:20] So I think things I've read like about like you know the difference in the book and the difference in the movies that most people seem to be even the book readers seem to really like what they did here

[00:17:32] especially because you're different.

[00:17:34] Everything's different when you when you put it on screen and your economy of time and how you're going to be able to move the narrative along they do say it does make things interesting and complicated if they decide to do a third which would be either

[00:17:46] doing Messiah or a combination of you know any one of the sequels because I guess there's like we get a glimpse of children of Dune in this.

[00:17:57] And like they also made some changes where the sister only speaks sort of telepathically through the room as opposed to being a toddler that fights.

[00:18:10] I think that's a solid choice.

[00:18:13] I don't know man.

[00:18:15] I would have liked to see that now I.

[00:18:17] All right so not knowing how this was going to play out.

[00:18:24] I my jaw dropped.

[00:18:25] I was completely shocked when he basically demands the emperor's daughter's hand in marriage.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:34] As a servant of the Imperium.

[00:18:37] It would not like my feet.

[00:18:38] Your feet.

[00:18:40] You'll be lucky to keep your head.

[00:18:42] I'll take the hand of your daughter.

[00:18:46] She will remain safe.

[00:18:50] And we will rule together over the Empire.

[00:19:03] But you have to answer for my father.

[00:19:09] It was effectively WTF moment right.

[00:19:13] Yeah and I think so for me I got to experience that much differently than people who had read the books and people who had like done some YouTube research or something ahead of time.

[00:19:25] And for me I would I mean that it blew my mind and the fact that Shoney's in the room when that happens.

[00:19:33] And you're kind of seeing her perspective after that full on love story hooks you in.

[00:19:39] I thought that was real and you know what that could have been really tropey too you know.

[00:19:44] It's not like we haven't seen movies where people go for the political marriage over against the true love marriage.

[00:19:53] You know those stories are as old as the troubadours but I this one it worked for some reason this one got me really good.

[00:20:03] And in the best way.

[00:20:05] Yeah I agree and I also think that was I liked how he tells her you know I'll love you forever basically right before he goes and does this.

[00:20:14] So it really it puts I think it puts us in that in her spot yeah because he kind of says it to us or whatever and we kind of and then all of a sudden he does that and you're like now you just at first you're like oh well that's just he's just you know who knows what this is going to go how this is going to go down.

[00:20:31] You know maybe maybe he doesn't know if you'll survive it so he's just going to let her know but then he pulls that move and you're kind of like oh are you a dick.

[00:20:40] Can we talk for a minute about Christopher Walken.

[00:20:50] Sure.

[00:20:53] I just couldn't keep myself from laughing whenever he was on this.

[00:21:01] Just maybe the worst choice for this role.

[00:21:07] Well it's hard right now I mean Walken because he's walking's got a little bit more of a resurgence in terms of like especially with severance like in terms of like having like oh yeah he's got some chops right.

[00:21:20] Oh absolutely but I I've come to the conclusion that he's a better comedic actor than anything else.

[00:21:27] True.

[00:21:28] And I mean it has to be the right if this is will Ferrell would you have been better with that.

[00:21:36] I honestly I'm thinking like Anthony Hopkins is right there and he'll do anything these days.

[00:21:44] I mean he'll he's he would be perfect for that kind of I can think of a hundred actors that would try.

[00:21:51] I mean he didn't even try an accent.

[00:21:54] He he mailed it in and this is the same film that has Dave Bautista yelling every single line.

[00:22:05] True.

[00:22:06] To me it's like I love the movie.

[00:22:09] I think it's it's like maybe one of the best sequels I've ever seen and at the same time it's like man Christopher Walken just didn't try.

[00:22:19] He just decided he was going to phone it in.

[00:22:23] I remember the first time I had to play a king.

[00:22:26] I said to another actor I said how am I going to play a king you know from Queens and you know I grew up in the neighborhood.

[00:22:36] And he said don't worry about it.

[00:22:38] He said the king is seen by reflection.

[00:22:40] He said you'll be a king by the way people treat you.

[00:22:44] And I thought that was wise and I thought about thought about it with this that I didn't have to try to be the emperor.

[00:22:52] That I just rely on Dene and the beautiful sets and costumes and that people treated me like the emperor then it'd be OK.

[00:23:05] So that's how I approached it.

[00:23:07] I don't know what did you think about it.

[00:23:09] I didn't mind him so much but I mean you do have an immediate moment like huh.

[00:23:14] Gonna gonna put Christopher Walken in here.

[00:23:17] What's he gonna do.

[00:23:20] And you're like oh not much.

[00:23:25] You didn't even need anybody.

[00:23:26] I mean like you could have just got an old guy.

[00:23:29] You know what I mean.

[00:23:30] It's like because I didn't like it's interesting right because a movie like this it's not in my opinion if he's not going to do anything don't have him because I'm like well when's he going to do the walking thing.

[00:23:42] You got him.

[00:23:44] If you're not going to do an accident at least play up the walking thing a lot.

[00:23:48] Yeah could you imagine being like hey well he'd be perfect in what way.

[00:23:52] Well he's old.

[00:23:54] Like the movie is not like it's not like it's suffering for like people that are going to go see it like we need a little little little like a cameo like that is odd.

[00:24:05] This is a movie that did not need a cameo this movie has every actor who's ever auditioned for a Marvel movie in it.

[00:24:15] Yeah so it's a legitimately impressive cast.

[00:24:21] You have you have Wonka fighting Elvis Presley.

[00:24:25] You got to see Thanos kill Drax again that was kind of rough.

[00:24:31] I guess maybe the virtue of walking is that like you need someone that could believably be the top dog over all of these other very prominent actors.

[00:24:43] Maybe.

[00:24:44] You need like an elder statesman in that role but I'm thinking like there are other people that could do this I mean I don't know.

[00:24:52] Throw me throw me some Patrick Stewart with a wink and nod to the 84.

[00:24:56] I'm packing this for the crossing shield practice shield practice gurney we had practice this morning.

[00:25:03] I'm not in the mood not in the mood moods a thing for cattle and love play not fighting.

[00:25:10] I'm sorry gurney.

[00:25:12] Not sorry enough.

[00:25:19] Oh that would be so freaking awesome now that you said that I feel a little bit depressed that that didn't happen.

[00:25:28] Patrick Stewart walks out with the bulldog and a baby.

[00:25:33] Love love it won't even question.

[00:25:37] Oh all right.

[00:25:39] I love this movie that's that does not ruin my enjoyment of the movie it just a very odd choice so let me let me ask you this though because you refer to it as a sequel which it certainly is but it kind of isn't right I mean it's not a there's a story and then we did a follow up story this is a continuation right I mean this is an interesting thing to to to identify in

[00:26:04] terms of a film that is basically interesting it's a continuation a lot of sequels are indeed continue but they're not based on they're not based on one book.

[00:26:16] Okay I see what you're saying so what I'm saying is it's one story that was split up for the sake of filming and time and all of that right hand money for sure but I mean Ghostbusters to is not part of the novel Ghostbusters.

[00:26:32] It wasn't.

[00:26:34] So you know I mean so it's like I mean this happens obviously people split will split a story but I think it's an interesting question about it's as a sequel because sequels sequels oftentimes you know sometimes they can pick up with a story left off right but it's like somebody

[00:26:51] else is now writing in a new story so this is really in my opinion it's intended to be watched straight through.

[00:26:58] I think that that probably is the case and because one one doesn't end.

[00:27:03] I mean it finished at the end of the first dune you could almost view it as anti climactic.

[00:27:09] Sure.

[00:27:11] Be you know there is a giant you know battle scene that's pretty impressive but it kind of ends with like Paula tradies has a knife fight with some dude in the desert and then he walks away.

[00:27:25] In other words that movie dune part one could not stand alone by itself as a complete story.

[00:27:34] And I don't know if you could say that about this one either although it does have a more sort of arresting ending than the first.

[00:27:43] It does and so I think you can if there's no if there's no sequel I think you're fine with this one.

[00:27:50] I mean it can't live on its own because the beginning makes no sense right because the beginning just takes up with the last one left off.

[00:27:58] That's true.

[00:27:59] So that's I think one of the one of the key differences and then and the ending of this sort of gives you like you saw the ending in the foreshadowing and the visions.

[00:28:10] So this sort of in my opinion I'm like I don't necessarily need more.

[00:28:16] I'll take more but I don't need more because I feel like once that's over I'm like oh I this is the path that he was trying to avoid and then was like no that's the path we're taking.

[00:28:28] So I already in my opinion I was like oh this is you've given me the ending where this goes in the visions from from before.

[00:28:37] Sure.

[00:28:38] Which I that part I really enjoy like that because I like I like a movie that doesn't necessarily resolve.

[00:28:44] I like a movie.

[00:28:45] Well is that why everyone thinks Empire Strikes Back is the best because it doesn't it doesn't need or warrant any of the Serpent be catharsis at the end of a story like this.

[00:29:00] You know I'm I've argued quite a bit that Star Wars is a fantasy story and not sci-fi but most fantasy stories will end with that you know have happy ending right.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:17] Most fantasy stories and it will end with a little yub yub.

[00:29:21] Yub yub is exactly what you would expect at the end of a fantasy story but this movie doesn't have that Empire Strikes Back doesn't have that because it is not the conclusion of that happy story.

[00:29:35] Well I think there's I think Empire Strikes Back might be a little different the sense that because it sends everybody off it does say I mean.

[00:29:43] There's not even like a little bit of closure because everyone leaves to go do something else.

[00:29:49] And I think the reason why it's considered the best maybe partly because it doesn't have a complete wrap up but because.

[00:29:55] It's I think it I think there's a nostalgia factor to it.

[00:29:59] I mean for one thing it's context right movies weren't as big at the time Star Wars was one of the biggest movies of all time so already you're excited about the sequel and it ups everything right I mean the effects are better.

[00:30:11] The locations are more interesting because you go to multiple planets.

[00:30:15] You got time times.

[00:30:17] I thought they smell bad.

[00:30:20] On the outside.

[00:30:21] You got ice planets you've got swamp planets you've got Cloud City.

[00:30:26] You've got the huge reveal of Darth Vader and and then you know you've got all like you get more Han Solo you're getting all of that action.

[00:30:38] And it's just amazing and then it does leave you on a cliffhanger which tells you what what a new hope didn't a new hope didn't tell you there's another one coming this one did so there's that other level of excitement that I think people really like about it because

[00:30:52] like oh and there's going to be more so it fakes in anticipation.

[00:30:55] Yeah that was sort of before if you're going to do one sequel you might as well do too there was no such thing as like.

[00:31:02] Well every every sequel has a sequel right.

[00:31:06] It's like you wouldn't if you saw a part two there was no law in Hollywood that says that well now you have to have a part three.

[00:31:14] Right trilogies are the norm.

[00:31:16] Yeah trilogies are the norm now but back then it was not but here's the thing about this I've been walking around for the last two weeks with one idea floating through my head and that is is my entire life a fraud is Star Wars did Star Wars.

[00:31:35] Still every good idea from Dune.

[00:31:38] Yeah it did.

[00:31:40] Like I mean I think that's safe almost even every freaking idea.

[00:31:45] Yeah and it kept stealing later like even the you know when you start getting into that's obvious but even like you know Paula Trady's in this movie says oh we're harkening well that's how we're going to win we're going to be harkening.

[00:32:01] I mean that's absolutely look in the cave right.

[00:32:04] I mean that's you know a sand planet with multiple sons every good idea every freaking good idea stolen everybody has a weird name except your hero.

[00:32:17] I mean just go down the line we could probably come up with like 20 things and of course you know this is my fault because I mean I guess it has its virtue of being the age that I am right.

[00:32:32] Sure.

[00:32:34] You know when it when return to the Jedi came out I was the perfect age for return to the Jedi and at that stage in my life there's no way I'm reading Dune I'm reluctant to start Dune now.

[00:32:46] So yeah yeah no for sure but it's it's pretty clear to me that Lucas took this took a little bit of Lord of the Rings took a little bit of you know Campbell's Heroes journey and he he packaged it into a Happy Meal for us.

[00:33:06] Yeah.

[00:33:07] Yeah basically said well let's not make let's not do an anti hero let's just let's just sanitize.

[00:33:14] Well but let's let's tinker with it because you know Luke is absolutely going to flirt with the dark side.

[00:33:22] He's going to find out his father's you know that he's actually related to the being villain of the story.

[00:33:33] I mean you could argue that Luke does turn to the dark side at a few points.

[00:33:39] But yeah he does sanitize for sure.

[00:33:43] I mean he he opts not to kill his father in this case.

[00:33:48] I mean obviously I guess in the book Paul doesn't kill his grandfather it's the toddler sister does it.

[00:34:00] Which again you have you have a brother sister relationship.

[00:34:04] Yeah.

[00:34:06] It's an interesting thing too yeah I mean it's so yeah no I took definitely took that away from it where I was like even like I said even

[00:34:13] it continues on in the rise of Skywalker right where the emperor and Ray are at the same lineage or whatever.

[00:34:23] Oh yeah I forgot about that kind of wiped that out of my head.

[00:34:30] But uh but yeah so I think like yeah this is so yeah my initial reaction was like I don't know if I liked it now I go no I do I it's it is a shift.

[00:34:41] It is a shift in tone like there is a once like the the big battle scene with your like the the tournament scene with fade.

[00:34:53] Oh sure yeah yeah I was a little bit like this is in this movie you know what I mean like it maybe I was getting too caught up or not too but like sufficiently caught up in like the political part of it.

[00:35:10] Like are trying to grasp it all because there is something interesting about a movie like this and I'm sure this is where I think the book probably comes in handy is the world building and maybe more specifically the family building.

[00:35:25] So when you start building up these families and understanding the relationship in this universe and what bloodline means and all of that then maybe the reveal that they're harkening matters more.

[00:35:37] Like I'm like I know this matters but as a person who doesn't live in a world where bloodlines make that much of a difference.

[00:35:46] It it doesn't have maybe the same gravity that like it's supposed to because I'm like yeah harkening is bad I guess you know I mean there.

[00:35:55] Yeah I guess you're a harkening with hair.

[00:36:00] That was a little bit of the movie.

[00:36:03] Let me ask you this what is your feeling of Austin Butler's performance in this.

[00:36:12] I'll be honest I don't think I've ever seen him besides being Elvis.

[00:36:18] Okay so I was like oh so you just sound like Elvis.

[00:36:24] Well I do think that he he was convinced he was Elvis for about a year.

[00:36:31] I mean he was just adored just everything about Austin Butler in this film.

[00:36:37] He was just amazed by him and I kind of felt like this is supposed to be sort of real politic and yet you've got an entire planet of mean people.

[00:36:50] I mean they're they're like.

[00:36:54] It's like why not why not new ones that just a tiny bit.

[00:36:59] There's an ice planet and there's a swamp planet in Dune.

[00:37:02] There's like a sand planet and then there's the planet of bullies.

[00:37:07] Just I do nuance it a tiny bit just a little bit.

[00:37:11] It would be good.

[00:37:12] I mean I understand like you know cannibalism.

[00:37:16] Sure fine.

[00:37:18] Do you have to be so mean while you're being a cannibal.

[00:37:23] I don't know.

[00:37:24] Are there nice cannibals?

[00:37:25] Meet anybody on a specialized diet and they just drive you crazy like are you psychotic.

[00:37:32] I only eat conifers.

[00:37:34] So did Butler take you out of it or were you like that's pretty impressive what he's doing right now.

[00:37:39] No I actually really liked Austin Butler's performance.

[00:37:42] Fantastic.

[00:37:43] I just but I was also like so here's so this there's two things can be equally true.

[00:37:47] I really am like all right this is what we're doing.

[00:37:50] So I was in.

[00:37:51] Okay but I was a little bit initially like oh do we need this like do we need this like does this like there's a lot at stake in this in this world.

[00:38:05] The idea that there's like a cannibal knife fighter added to the mix and then it kind of doesn't do anything you know what I mean like he's there and like oh and then there's the big battle because like you know it's sort of the the you know tribute or whatever.

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:21] Okay but but then it was like I feel like we saw we got a lot of the screen time built up to this guy is this guy's crazy he's blood thirsty he's maniacal for a kind of a brief fight.

[00:38:42] You know what I mean like I was like okay like there was a lot of bit like we he was the other option if if.

[00:38:48] Oh yeah this Paula trade these things doesn't work he's going to be emperor and then it was like all right well he then it felt reduced like I feel like that like like this is a whole complicated element of this entire plan and you build them up and all he is is kind of like a speed bump at the end.

[00:39:08] Well it's interesting in that way that has sort of a parallel with the first movie.

[00:39:17] You know because it does end with a knife fight but I do think that there's something about like those two characters seem like they're on a collision course for the whole movie.

[00:39:28] Right so you want to see them face each other.

[00:39:32] But in I think it was an interesting choice to play down the emotionality they eliminate all music from that scene.

[00:39:45] It does kind of feel like like a it's like a glorified bar fight you know it's like.

[00:39:53] Just people standing in a circle watching two dudes take care of business.

[00:39:58] And there was a little bit like wait a second this is all supposed to be like political intrigue where we're actually going to settle this with a bar fight.

[00:40:09] Right but for some reason it worked.

[00:40:12] It was like no that's that man that is you're about to see Austin Butler get his heart's desire.

[00:40:22] That he's been Jones and for this he's been salivating for this fight.

[00:40:28] And then but and now you're going to see a very reduced sense of the conflict is sort of like.

[00:40:36] It's like it's a distilled version of all of the conflict that's that's been hinted at throughout the movie.

[00:40:43] But I think the reason why that happens the way it does is it really does want to shift your focus to both the Shawnee narrative and into the fact that now the entire galaxy is at war as a result of what just happened.

[00:41:01] Yeah I mean I guess I mean and that's fine.

[00:41:05] I guess it's just it's what you did to get there.

[00:41:08] Like I mean there was like I said a lot of screen time and a lot of conversation about him as like again as a plan B.

[00:41:20] Yeah which which I think is also very important part of this whole story is the that this whole thing is being manipulated.

[00:41:28] Oh the Ben and Jeserit further.

[00:41:30] The Ben and Jeserit.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] Yeah yeah so that's that's a really that's a really compelling concept right that you've almost got this Illuminati.

[00:41:39] Yeah that's right.

[00:41:41] That's that's putting all of this together and and even and so even Paul with his ability to see these things that he still he's still sort of just a puppet right in some ways.

[00:41:55] Well that's what he was he's designed to be the perfect Ben and Jeserit.

[00:41:59] Ben and Jeserit puppet.

[00:42:01] And so the question is is he a puppet or is he allowing himself to be a puppet for political gain or does he really believe that he's the Messiah.

[00:42:12] Well yeah and I and I guess like one of the readings I chose to take from it was this is you know there's no better political puppet in this particular in this environment too then than a than a dude

[00:42:28] will give in a guy is going to for sure he will be swayed by power.

[00:42:36] I sort of took that as as a bit of a critique as well as like oh like the alright so the perfect political puppet is a man because a man is fundamentally easier to manipulate easier to manipulate because he will he because if you give if you if you give

[00:42:56] him and some power he's going to want some milk you know like if you give him give him a promise of power and you can you can admit him to what everyone.

[00:43:04] Yeah one point the the Reverend mother says about Fayad he says or she says his levers are desire and humiliation that's how you're going to be able to manipulate that guy.

[00:43:18] And so it's really on the face it's like really obvious like what we're going to do is we're going to study you we're going to figure out which buttons to push and then we're going to use those buttons to manipulate the outcome we want.

[00:43:31] Right and so by by virtue of that sequence you then understand that the same thing has been happening with Paul you just may not have seen him.

[00:43:41] And so I think that's he yeah but he does have sort of a fraught relationship with his mother throughout.

[00:43:49] Because he knows you know she has a proper relationship with his mother.

[00:43:54] Not anymore he solved the problem.

[00:43:57] Well that's what I'm saying.

[00:44:02] I love this movie a lot.

[00:44:04] I can't wait to revisit it and.

[00:44:08] I'm very curious because I want to obviously watch it with Heather and I've said nothing.

[00:44:15] Good.

[00:44:16] I'm curious.

[00:44:17] And she has no desire to go smell the carpets at the movie theater.

[00:44:23] Well I mean we've lost our nearest movie theater.

[00:44:28] It's not a business.

[00:44:30] And.

[00:44:33] The Sebastian theaters got to have got to be showing doing right.

[00:44:38] Yeah I mean so I can watch it on the screen smaller than mine.

[00:44:44] I'm just thinking like she it would be a good time.

[00:44:48] I would imagine that she because she enjoyed the first one taking her to the second would be a good time rather than waiting another four months for it to stream on Apple.

[00:44:58] Yeah I mean we'll see.

[00:45:03] Yeah I mean so definitely enjoy it.

[00:45:06] I like the story.

[00:45:07] I like I think I said my my issues may be assuaged on a rewatch but then again it may also be colored on a rewatch because I know where it's going so I might be a little more forgiving but.

[00:45:21] But knowing you know again taking out the the initial response that I had which was like another white savior narrative.

[00:45:29] Knowing that that's not going to be a problem for me maybe maybe I'll see it a little bit differently and but again like I said I just I felt like there were just moments where.

[00:45:40] The like the Austin Butler payoff was like that's what was I mean I was hoping I guess maybe for a little bit more complication of his character in terms of rule.

[00:45:52] Yeah.

[00:45:53] Well it could be that that he is just a canary in the coal mine he's like now that we know that Paula tradies is actually Harkonnen.

[00:46:06] We know what he might we have an image of what he might become I don't know just just one man's reading.

[00:46:15] Do you want another one.

[00:46:17] Do I want a third doon.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:20] I think I need it.

[00:46:21] I don't think I would be satisfied if this was the end of the story and given the success of this I'm probably going to get it.

[00:46:31] I'm probably gonna like it.

[00:46:34] Yeah I think I don't want another one.

[00:46:37] Oh so you don't want a yub-yub scene at the end.

[00:46:41] I don't know that you can get a yub-yub on this I don't think I don't think that this is destined for yub-yub but I also feel like ending ending a film like this.

[00:46:52] It'll be Ewoks it's just that they're going to be eating other Ewoks.

[00:46:58] Well now we're on something.

[00:47:00] If the journey that I went on where the story is like I said like the T2 on its ear type thing where it's like we got to avoid this I got it whatever I do I got to avoid this and then he comes to the point where it's just like no I'm going to do it.

[00:47:18] And you're like well is it for selfish reasons for this that I'm like I don't think it matters.

[00:47:26] I think that's the because that's also the kind of that was sort of what I took with like there are no sides interesting and when you hear that like to me I'm like there's a certain bleakness to it that for me as a sci-fi fan I'm like yeah that I like.

[00:47:45] This is a common refrain from you.

[00:47:49] You do not want your stories to wrap.

[00:47:53] You want your you you want to end the film with a wider horizon than the one that you saw when you came in.

[00:48:02] You don't want it narrowed you don't want it packaged but some movies need to explain a few things at the end.

[00:48:13] I think that's our job.

[00:48:15] I know that I know that that's how you feel and sometimes I feel the same way with this film I do not feel the same way.

[00:48:22] Also my my love the first two so much why wouldn't I want a third because they could screw it up.

[00:48:31] Yeah they could they could definitely screw it up.

[00:48:35] I don't burden the hand bro.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:39] So there's a day but this is dead and Christopher Walken subdued.

[00:48:45] It can only get better.

[00:48:49] Yeah I yeah and you're right about my my my tendency to not necessarily like this right because again I look at I like you know a painting right if you've got a painting that moves you.

[00:49:00] You don't need a second painting to explain it.

[00:49:03] Maybe I do.

[00:49:07] If you flip it over.

[00:49:09] It's a magic guy.

[00:49:11] There's an instruction on the back.

[00:49:15] Yeah I because I because I think that's actually did a good job in my opinion like it did the like I said that foreshadowing like to me the ending of the movie the ending or the result was already given to me and that I thought was a really neat trick and I would

[00:49:30] and I kind of feel like you did it.

[00:49:32] That's a really clever thing that you did.

[00:49:34] You pulled that off and that is a hard thing to pull off and you pulled it off so well that too.

[00:49:40] This is like this goes back to let's go back to Star Wars again one of the things we'd love to do was to talk about what were the Clone Wars.

[00:49:47] What were they what was the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin and then they gave it to us and we're like well that's dog shit.

[00:50:02] No you're right in that it's things fall apart.

[00:50:07] Things tend toward attrition and it's really easy to not stick the landing.

[00:50:15] I think we've all experienced you know beloved television shows and movies that didn't do the thing that we had hoped it would do.

[00:50:29] I don't know why I feel optimistic this time.

[00:50:33] It could be that I'm just going to be disappointed yet again.

[00:50:38] I just feel like I need a third movie.

[00:50:43] Well I guess the question I would have and maybe our listeners or book reading listeners can chime in on the emails.

[00:50:52] Cocoon of horror at gmail.com. Good luck.

[00:50:57] Yeah good luck.

[00:51:00] I hear an awful lot of discussion about the book Dune.

[00:51:07] I hear very little discussion about Dune Messiah.

[00:51:13] So I'm curious about that like why you know there are a lot of follow up books that I don't hear anyone talk about and maybe you can't talk about them until you've actually got a reason to talk about Dune but

[00:51:28] that's sort of where I land is like how good are they in comparison and maybe they're great.

[00:51:33] I don't know.

[00:51:34] I don't know enough about Dune but like I said it's just to me.

[00:51:38] They're like well maybe you'll have some of the things I read like oh maybe this will refer to this or refer to that or we've since this change with their Shawnee relationship well that's certainly going to change the next step if you go into Dune Messiah so it's like

[00:51:51] the changes that may have been made while maybe subtle and appropriate for filming now are going to require maybe a little bit more of a strain from the source material to make it work so then that does open up the opportunity for some missteps.

[00:52:07] Interesting.

[00:52:08] Yeah, this is a good question I don't you know not being a book reader I don't really have an answer for this.

[00:52:19] My what I have heard about this is that Frank Herbert.

[00:52:25] He felt like maybe people didn't quite catch what he was trying to pitch at the end of Dune.

[00:52:32] They didn't quite see that he's subverting the Messiah narrative so then he leans in hard with Dune Messiah.

[00:52:40] Gotcha.

[00:52:41] Which in a way villain who captures I think quite well.

[00:52:46] So yeah.

[00:52:47] There's not a lot of question.

[00:52:48] But I mean I gotta know what this baby is going to do when it's born.

[00:52:53] I gotta know how the how Paul is going to navigate the Ben Adjezerit.

[00:53:00] Coven of schemers.

[00:53:06] I'm kind of curious.

[00:53:08] I want to see him and Shawnee get back together.

[00:53:11] I'm shipping those two.

[00:53:15] How do you feel?

[00:53:16] How do you feel about I'm hooked.

[00:53:17] I feel like I'm a fish on a hook at this point.

[00:53:21] You're a Shawnee fan?

[00:53:23] I was never much of a Shawnee fan.

[00:53:27] How much Shawnee had you had prior?

[00:53:30] How much Shawnee can one hat?

[00:53:32] He still feels like an unaged whiskey.

[00:53:34] I'd seen him in a few things.

[00:53:37] Didn't hate him on SNL.

[00:53:41] I don't I haven't seen him anything that I hated.

[00:53:44] So I don't really I didn't really have a strong opinion going in.

[00:53:48] I want you to watch this movie again.

[00:53:51] Okay.

[00:53:52] And you will.

[00:53:53] And I want you to watch Timothy Shawnee's performance.

[00:53:58] And I want you to think about Nicolas Cage.

[00:54:02] Would Nick Cage have been a better?

[00:54:05] Paula Trady?

[00:54:06] I think what I'm saying is I think that there is a remarkable if in the movie they

[00:54:16] had said it found out that he is saying we're harkening if he had said I'm

[00:54:20] Nicolas Cage's son.

[00:54:21] I don't believe it.

[00:54:24] There are several moments in this movie from voice inflection to just all

[00:54:32] now he's just going to shout at his mom.

[00:54:36] Got a little cagey.

[00:54:38] Watch it again.

[00:54:40] He's a teenage boy teenage boys.

[00:54:43] Vassalate emotionally.

[00:54:45] He's cagey.

[00:54:46] He's cagey in this film.

[00:54:47] The slicer chewed off my hand.

[00:54:50] It's funny because when my fiance found out about it but she found out that I had been

[00:54:55] maimed she left me for another man.

[00:55:00] That's the bad blood between you and Johnny?

[00:55:02] Yes, that's it.

[00:55:04] Yeah, but that's not Johnny's fault.

[00:55:08] I don't care.

[00:55:09] I ain't no freaking monument to justice.

[00:55:12] I lost my hand.

[00:55:14] Johnny has his hand.

[00:55:17] Johnny has his bride.

[00:55:19] You want me to take it?

[00:55:22] And maybe and I'm not and I'm not you like your fan of Nick Cage and I'm not saying it's

[00:55:27] a bad thing.

[00:55:28] I think he's properly cagey.

[00:55:30] Okay, then for some reason it works for you.

[00:55:32] I'm trying to think of like who else I would like to see in this rather than

[00:55:36] shall I make it.

[00:55:37] Paul Trader is supposed to be like 15 when he goes to the Dune Planet.

[00:55:41] So I'm trying it would have to be someone that could pull that off and

[00:55:45] I don't know who else still Michael Sarah.

[00:55:48] Michael Sarah with a gray goatee.

[00:55:51] I don't know.

[00:55:55] I don't know who else who who us would be good for this.

[00:55:59] Patrick Stewart.

[00:56:01] Yeah, no, I don't know.

[00:56:03] Not sure.

[00:56:04] All right.

[00:56:05] So we're not going to do our usual properly Howard categories, but didn't seem

[00:56:14] like you were super excited about this when you left, but upon reflection.

[00:56:19] It sounds like you're sort of suspending judgment until you watch it with Heather.

[00:56:25] Yeah, I definitely walked like so in the evening because I thought about it all

[00:56:30] day and I thought about in the evening and and I really was like, No,

[00:56:35] this is this is a good movie.

[00:56:37] This is a very good watch that deserves a second watch.

[00:56:43] I don't think I will like it less on a second watch.

[00:56:46] If anything, I will be neutral, but a better chance of like it more.

[00:56:50] I think the issues I have, I think are probably going to still be there.

[00:56:55] But I'm willing to give them another look see to find out like maybe I maybe

[00:56:59] maybe there's a connection that I can make now that I kind of understand

[00:57:04] the world a little better.

[00:57:06] Well, you've surprised me Steve, I'll say this.

[00:57:08] I was a little bit worried and what I was worried about is that I knew that

[00:57:12] you had to do a set after this film and I thought, Oh, no, he's going to like it

[00:57:20] so much it's going to blow his mind and it's going to ruin his ability to

[00:57:24] deliver a comedic voice in Sunnyvale.

[00:57:28] I was more worried for the people of Sunnyvale than anything.

[00:57:32] But I'm assuming that the set went pretty well.

[00:57:37] The set didn't go very well.

[00:57:39] So the people of Sunnyvale got their monies.

[00:57:44] Yeah, they were better than the people of Iraqis.

[00:59:04] A new Star Wars journey begins in the place all good journeys begin at, well, the beginning.

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[00:59:30] Listen to the short intro episode now to hear how it works

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