Steve and Anthony get weird with Tim Burton's Batman.
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[00:00:00] Welcome back Properly Howard fans. This is our first installment of a few good films. Every film this season has some connection to a few good men. Batman 89, of course, has the Jack connection. Just a word on this before we get going. I have some technical difficulties about halfway through and my mic switches and it sounds horrible. So be prepared for that. I do apologize. Make sure you're checking out everything happening at the Lorehounds, the Lorehounds.com.
[00:00:29] You can see their coverage of Dune Prophecy and Silo. Of course, we really appreciate iTunes reviews. We will read it on this podcast if you write one. If you have emails, you can send those to cocoonsofhorror at gmail.com.
[00:00:43] Alright, I hope you enjoy a few good films. Our season spotlighting the major players in A Few Good Men.
[00:00:50] Well, now you're trying.
[00:00:52] Well, now I'm crying, Nick!
[00:00:54] At least you have a cry!
[00:01:09] Welcome to Properly Howard, a podcast that reviews classic films and other full fiction. Today we look at the 1989 pop culture phenomenon, Batman.
[00:01:20] Directed by Tim Burton, Batman pits Michael Keaton against Jack Nicholson while Kim Basinger screams about it. Also, Jack Palance in a gorgeous robe.
[00:01:30] With me, as always, is Dr. Anthony LaDawn.
[00:01:33] You're my number one guy.
[00:01:38] Sugar puffs.
[00:01:40] Steve, we've talked about Batman 89. Maybe more than any other movie besides Star Wars, the Star Wars franchise.
[00:01:50] Yeah, I think that's probably right.
[00:01:51] I mean, I guess you could say more than any other movie because when we talk about Star Wars, it's sort of like a broad swath of narrative.
[00:02:00] Whereas...
[00:02:01] Right.
[00:02:01] Mostly we just talk about this movie. I haven't seen Batman Returns in, I guess, more than a decade.
[00:02:08] Yeah, and that's a go-to for me. Sometimes I'll skip right over 89.
[00:02:11] Oh, man.
[00:02:12] So, we've talked a lot about Fat Man.
[00:02:17] Fat Man, yeah.
[00:02:19] We've talked a lot about Batman.
[00:02:23] And I have a question for you that we've never discussed.
[00:02:27] Okay.
[00:02:28] So, I'm kind of excited to hear your answer to this.
[00:02:35] Is the Joker a clown?
[00:02:39] Is the Joker a clown?
[00:02:40] Well, I mean, he's the...
[00:02:41] Is the Joker a clown?
[00:02:45] Well, isn't he like the clown prince of, like, mayhem or something?
[00:02:51] I mean, isn't that kind of how he's described?
[00:02:53] Something like that.
[00:02:55] I mean, as far as I know, he's had...
[00:02:57] Does he qualify...
[00:02:58] This is the is a hot dog a sandwich question?
[00:03:01] Yes.
[00:03:02] That's right.
[00:03:02] Does he qualify as a clown?
[00:03:05] Wow, this is great.
[00:03:06] I really hope that people tuning in are going to appreciate us breaking down what qualifies
[00:03:12] as clowning.
[00:03:13] Uh-huh.
[00:03:15] You know, because I'm...
[00:03:17] You know, you could simply say, look, just because I put on black clothing and a black
[00:03:24] hood does not a ninja make, right?
[00:03:26] Like, there's other...
[00:03:27] Yeah, Billy Joel can dress up like a mechanic all he wants.
[00:03:31] Right.
[00:03:32] Yeah.
[00:03:32] He's not a mechanic.
[00:03:33] I'm not bringing my car to him, right?
[00:03:37] All right.
[00:03:38] So, yes.
[00:03:39] Is the Joker a clown?
[00:03:41] So, okay.
[00:03:42] Let's find out.
[00:03:43] What is a clown?
[00:03:44] What makes a clown?
[00:03:45] Does a clown have to have makeup?
[00:03:49] At least a little bit.
[00:03:51] And I'm saying just a little bit of face makeup.
[00:03:54] Right.
[00:03:54] So you're saying just maybe some, like, J.D. Vance-esque mascaras enough?
[00:04:03] No, you have to have more than a news anchor.
[00:04:06] I'm suggesting that it matters what the makeup is doing and where it's positioned, but you
[00:04:13] at least have to have some kind of bright color on your face, I think.
[00:04:19] Okay.
[00:04:20] Well, I'm going to...
[00:04:21] This is going to be a very long podcast, and I think it's going to be worth it.
[00:04:26] But are you familiar with the song?
[00:04:29] I'm saying a clown needs to have clown makeup.
[00:04:32] That's what I'm saying.
[00:04:32] Are you familiar with the song Don't Worry, Be Happy?
[00:04:37] Sure.
[00:04:37] Yeah.
[00:04:38] Okay.
[00:04:38] Okay.
[00:04:39] So, I mean, I don't need to give you a lot of backstory on...
[00:04:41] This was a family favorite for years.
[00:04:44] Yes.
[00:04:45] Bobby McFerrin, I believe this is maybe the first acapella song to win a Grammy or something.
[00:04:49] I mean, don't quote me on that, but it's definitely...
[00:04:51] It's also the first song that both my father and I enjoyed at the same time.
[00:04:54] This is a great bonding experience.
[00:04:58] Are you familiar with the music video starring Bobby McFerrin?
[00:05:05] Unfortunately, I...
[00:05:06] Was he a mime?
[00:05:07] I'm not sure.
[00:05:08] I have a vague memory of this.
[00:05:10] So, the music video for Bobby McFerrin featured Robin Williams.
[00:05:16] By the way, I want you to know that I know that mimes don't usually sing acapella.
[00:05:25] Yeah.
[00:05:27] That would be amazing.
[00:05:28] Like, hey, Bobby, you know that song you're known for?
[00:05:32] Where you do, like, not just the singing, but, like, you actually use your voice in many other ways to simulate instruments?
[00:05:40] Some say that's the opposite of miming.
[00:05:42] Like, almost to the extreme end of the mime spectrum.
[00:05:45] I'm so glad we're talking about Bobby McFerrin right now.
[00:05:49] Could you be a mime in the video?
[00:05:51] Like, do I sing?
[00:05:51] All right.
[00:05:51] I don't remember the video.
[00:05:53] I'm going to look it up after we talk, but tell me about this video and how it relates.
[00:05:57] So, in this video, there are, you know, representations of things that aren't going well and then ways you can just be happy.
[00:06:07] Which, by the way, I mean, what great advice.
[00:06:09] I mean, this is really before we understood clinical depression to the degree that we do now, right?
[00:06:13] I mean, could you imagine your therapist?
[00:06:15] You come in, you're just like, man, I'm having suicidal thoughts.
[00:06:17] I just really feel like I'm just not making it in this world.
[00:06:19] My family seems to really be detaching from me.
[00:06:22] And I don't know if it's me detaching from them.
[00:06:24] Have you tried not worrying about it?
[00:06:28] And instead, being happy.
[00:06:30] So, Bobby McFerrin, Robin Williams, and Bill Irwin.
[00:06:34] I don't know if you're familiar with Bill Irwin.
[00:06:37] Was he a mime?
[00:06:40] Well, in this particular, you know what?
[00:06:43] That's a great question.
[00:06:44] I think Bill Irwin might actually qualify.
[00:06:48] He's done some miming work.
[00:06:50] I was not way off.
[00:06:51] He's done some miming work.
[00:06:52] He's done some miming work.
[00:06:53] And he is considered a clown.
[00:06:57] Now, as a clown, there are instances where he is for sure in that white makeup,
[00:07:01] where you're just white-faced in the black fedora type thing and big old baggy jammies.
[00:07:06] I think that's like, I don't know if that's the French clown or just,
[00:07:10] which, by the way, we need to depict that clown in scary movies more.
[00:07:14] Maybe a clown that takes himself too seriously.
[00:07:18] That's a horror trope.
[00:07:19] No, no, no.
[00:07:19] See, the Americas have really embraced the hobo clown more than anything.
[00:07:25] Yes, the sad clown.
[00:07:27] Uh-huh.
[00:07:28] Bill Irwin, in this particular video, is doing an awful lot of clowning, like what I would consider clown work.
[00:07:35] And whether it's in the world of miming or if those two kind of have some nice Venn diagram overlap.
[00:07:40] No makeup, right?
[00:07:41] And I would look at him and say, oh, he's clowning around.
[00:07:46] Oh, yeah.
[00:07:46] This guy qualifies as a clown, but he's doing so without the makeup, right?
[00:07:51] And so I think this brings us to an interesting point of the Joker in this particular film,
[00:07:56] because he is what we would consider adorned in makeup, but it turns out that it's the regular face that is his makeup.
[00:08:05] Because this origin story has him, his nerves were severed and he went into toxic waste and it made his hair green and it made his face white.
[00:08:13] And he has to put on fleshy makeup to sort of be amongst the masses.
[00:08:21] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:22] So I think, I'm going to go so far as to say that clowning is a state of mind.
[00:08:28] Well, I just want to wrap up our Bill Irwin conversation before we go to your more epistemological.
[00:08:36] I have no problem just talking about Bill Irwin.
[00:08:40] He began as a vaudeville style stage performer and has been noted for his contributions to the renaissance of American circus.
[00:08:49] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:52] During the 1970s.
[00:08:53] Did you know that there was a circus renaissance?
[00:08:56] I'm finding that out now.
[00:08:59] He's also known as Mr. Noodle on Sesame Street, Elmo's World.
[00:09:06] He seems to be a formally trained clown.
[00:09:10] All right.
[00:09:10] So let's just put that to rest right now.
[00:09:13] So he's a clown.
[00:09:16] Not marginally a clown.
[00:09:18] He is a clown.
[00:09:19] He might be.
[00:09:20] He's sort of the apex clown.
[00:09:24] I'm going to disagree there, but let's continue with the Joker.
[00:09:29] No, this follows.
[00:09:31] I have a follow-up question for you.
[00:09:35] Now I'm remembering him in the movie Popeye.
[00:09:38] Also with Robin Williams.
[00:09:41] I think he keeps kicking his hat.
[00:09:42] He goes to where he's trying to get his hat and he keeps kicking it.
[00:09:44] And he gets like, he does a lot of physical stuff in there.
[00:09:47] Again, no makeup.
[00:09:48] That's the kind of thing that you should not worry about, by the way.
[00:09:56] Doctor, can you help me?
[00:09:57] I'm perpetually kicking my own hat.
[00:10:04] Are you a clown?
[00:10:07] All right.
[00:10:08] So we trained.
[00:10:09] Well, I mean.
[00:10:10] Okay.
[00:10:10] So this gets to my next question for you about the Joker.
[00:10:15] Did we answer the first question?
[00:10:19] I think that I.
[00:10:20] Okay.
[00:10:21] So here's.
[00:10:21] Let me.
[00:10:22] Let me answer your question with the question.
[00:10:24] And by that, I mean more information about a different person.
[00:10:27] No, this is back to Batman.
[00:10:29] So I think that you can make the case that the Joker.
[00:10:35] In the modern world.
[00:10:37] Well, you know, the clown Renaissance has come and gone.
[00:10:41] At least the circus Renaissance.
[00:10:45] That the Joker is the most famous clown.
[00:10:51] Outpacing Bill Irwin.
[00:10:53] Outpacing Bozo.
[00:10:58] Outpacing even Zach Galifianakis.
[00:11:01] I think that the Joker is the most famous clown.
[00:11:04] And yet.
[00:11:06] Not really a clown.
[00:11:08] Not really a clown.
[00:11:10] Hmm.
[00:11:11] You know, he's.
[00:11:12] The visual for the Joker in the 1940s was originally inspired by a deck of cards.
[00:11:18] So.
[00:11:18] Sure.
[00:11:19] The face of a clown is on a deck of cards.
[00:11:22] Right?
[00:11:23] Right.
[00:11:25] So that's a clown.
[00:11:27] But the Joker has no formal clown training.
[00:11:31] He doesn't really put on makeup to make him look clownish.
[00:11:35] That's just his skin.
[00:11:38] In the movie.
[00:11:39] In the movie.
[00:11:40] And.
[00:11:41] In the movie.
[00:11:43] What is his backstory?
[00:11:45] His backstory.
[00:11:47] That.
[00:11:47] That would make him.
[00:11:49] Kind of a villainous clown.
[00:11:51] Is that he has a lucky deck of cards.
[00:11:54] Mm hmm.
[00:11:55] That.
[00:11:56] That.
[00:11:57] Those are his clown bona fides.
[00:12:03] It would be like me becoming a super villain.
[00:12:07] Based on Wiffle Ball.
[00:12:09] Because I've got a favorite Wiffle Ball that I.
[00:12:11] I hold.
[00:12:12] The Wiffler.
[00:12:14] The Wiffler.
[00:12:15] It's absurd.
[00:12:16] It's absurd.
[00:12:16] And I.
[00:12:17] I would say that he is both the most famous clown.
[00:12:21] In the world.
[00:12:23] And.
[00:12:23] Not really a clown.
[00:12:25] It's kind of.
[00:12:25] Kind of a paradox.
[00:12:26] This guy.
[00:12:28] Imagine.
[00:12:30] Falling into toxic waste.
[00:12:31] Like Robocop's toxic waste situation.
[00:12:34] Very different than.
[00:12:35] Than Burton's Batman.
[00:12:37] Mm hmm.
[00:12:38] Both critical to the origin story.
[00:12:40] By the way.
[00:12:41] But let's.
[00:12:41] Let's continue.
[00:12:42] So.
[00:12:43] He.
[00:12:44] He falls into toxic waste.
[00:12:46] And it.
[00:12:46] And it.
[00:12:47] Makes him clownish.
[00:12:49] Changes.
[00:12:50] It makes him look like he's got.
[00:12:52] You know.
[00:12:53] Permanent makeup.
[00:12:55] And.
[00:12:56] And.
[00:12:57] He becomes a bit of a goofball.
[00:13:00] Well.
[00:13:00] I think that.
[00:13:01] This is.
[00:13:01] This is interesting.
[00:13:02] Because I think that.
[00:13:03] What this movie is trying to tell us.
[00:13:05] Is that.
[00:13:06] His face was in danger.
[00:13:08] Of just slipping right off.
[00:13:09] But.
[00:13:10] The plastic surgeon.
[00:13:11] Who.
[00:13:11] I love that he's.
[00:13:13] Almost a Nazi scientist.
[00:13:15] Um.
[00:13:16] Who.
[00:13:17] I don't think.
[00:13:18] Specializes.
[00:13:19] In facial reconstruction.
[00:13:21] Based on the outcome.
[00:13:22] Why did he have to go to this guy?
[00:13:25] That.
[00:13:25] He was able to pin his face.
[00:13:27] Into place.
[00:13:28] In a way that made him look.
[00:13:30] A little bit like.
[00:13:32] A.
[00:13:33] A joker.
[00:13:34] On.
[00:13:34] On his lucky deck of cards.
[00:13:36] And.
[00:13:36] And that was enough.
[00:13:37] That was enough for him.
[00:13:38] To just embrace the identity.
[00:13:41] Oh.
[00:13:41] So you think that he's like.
[00:13:42] Well I'm this now.
[00:13:43] So I'm going to.
[00:13:44] I might as well.
[00:13:45] Uh.
[00:13:46] Put on the whole affect.
[00:13:47] Yeah.
[00:13:48] I think so.
[00:13:49] I mean.
[00:13:49] It very.
[00:13:50] It's possible that he had.
[00:13:52] Somewhere deep down.
[00:13:53] Inside him.
[00:13:54] Like I.
[00:13:55] I identify with this.
[00:13:58] One card.
[00:13:59] In my deck of.
[00:14:00] Fifty three cards.
[00:14:03] Yeah.
[00:14:04] I think.
[00:14:04] We don't get any of that.
[00:14:05] All we know is that he has a lucky deck of cards.
[00:14:08] Why doesn't he.
[00:14:08] I got the sense.
[00:14:09] I got the sense.
[00:14:10] That this.
[00:14:10] That this.
[00:14:11] This.
[00:14:12] Yeah.
[00:14:12] That's a good point.
[00:14:14] That.
[00:14:14] I got the sense that this.
[00:14:16] Modified his.
[00:14:18] Mentality.
[00:14:18] Because he seemed to be really like.
[00:14:20] So you're saying that this was a choice.
[00:14:21] To lean into this.
[00:14:22] That maybe it was somehow lurking.
[00:14:23] I mean.
[00:14:24] I don't know.
[00:14:24] I.
[00:14:24] I mean.
[00:14:25] He.
[00:14:25] He does a lot of dancing around.
[00:14:27] The.
[00:14:28] He.
[00:14:28] He stings.
[00:14:29] We got none of that in the original version of.
[00:14:32] Of Jack Napier.
[00:14:33] We just got like.
[00:14:34] I didn't ask.
[00:14:35] And you got little things like that.
[00:14:36] But then later.
[00:14:37] He's like.
[00:14:37] Oh.
[00:14:37] It's gonna be a hot time.
[00:14:41] Yeah.
[00:14:42] I don't see any of sort of that latent clownishness in the original character.
[00:14:48] But sometimes.
[00:14:49] Somehow being dropped in a vat of goo.
[00:14:53] And employing out of nowhere.
[00:14:55] Like where does this.
[00:14:56] Where does this not see.
[00:14:58] Yeah.
[00:14:58] So I mean.
[00:14:58] Basically being a Gus Grissom henchman does not come with medical benefits.
[00:15:02] That's like one takeaway for sure.
[00:15:04] Or he has Kaiser.
[00:15:05] Like I don't.
[00:15:06] It's just one or the other.
[00:15:07] So originally.
[00:15:08] In the original comic.
[00:15:10] Joker has no origin story.
[00:15:12] But Burton.
[00:15:14] Decided to go a different direction.
[00:15:15] He decided to.
[00:15:17] Show us.
[00:15:18] Almost a fully formed Batman.
[00:15:22] I just dropped my wiffle ball by the way.
[00:15:24] Um.
[00:15:26] He shows us a fully formed Batman.
[00:15:29] But then he really leans into the Joker origin story.
[00:15:34] Do you think that this is a good idea?
[00:15:37] Because I think that we've established.
[00:15:40] It's kind of an absurd origin story.
[00:15:42] I think it's.
[00:15:43] It's.
[00:15:44] It's a very specific choice.
[00:15:46] Right.
[00:15:46] Because.
[00:15:47] Again.
[00:15:48] As we talked about.
[00:15:50] The.
[00:15:51] Batman.
[00:15:52] Phenomenon was.
[00:15:54] You know.
[00:15:54] We were kind of.
[00:15:56] Jonesing for superhero stuff.
[00:15:57] Right.
[00:15:58] And it was very.
[00:15:59] We were.
[00:15:59] We were being introduced.
[00:16:00] To.
[00:16:01] Maybe a more adult version of superheroes.
[00:16:04] More sinister themes.
[00:16:07] Yeah.
[00:16:07] I think this could be the first adult superhero movie.
[00:16:10] I mean.
[00:16:11] I don't know how adult it is.
[00:16:13] It's kind of wacky.
[00:16:14] It's for.
[00:16:14] It's as much for adults as it is for.
[00:16:17] Or I mean.
[00:16:17] Kids can maybe enjoy it.
[00:16:18] But it is much.
[00:16:19] Much darker than.
[00:16:22] Any of.
[00:16:23] Of the Superman films.
[00:16:24] Up to.
[00:16:25] To this point.
[00:16:26] So.
[00:16:27] It is interesting.
[00:16:28] Because.
[00:16:29] I don't know.
[00:16:31] Like they.
[00:16:32] They give us a sense of the Batman.
[00:16:35] Origin.
[00:16:35] But it's still tied to.
[00:16:37] To the Joker.
[00:16:38] Like even Batman.
[00:16:40] Little flashback.
[00:16:42] Of.
[00:16:43] Of him.
[00:16:43] You know.
[00:16:44] Of his parents.
[00:16:44] Dying.
[00:16:45] And we just kind of.
[00:16:46] You know.
[00:16:46] That's just something.
[00:16:47] We just know.
[00:16:48] But it still is now.
[00:16:50] Still shaping.
[00:16:52] The character.
[00:16:53] Of the Joker.
[00:16:54] I mean.
[00:16:54] The Joker.
[00:16:54] This movie could easily.
[00:16:55] Have been called the Joker.
[00:16:57] Right.
[00:16:57] I mean.
[00:16:58] Yeah.
[00:16:59] I mean.
[00:17:00] Obviously.
[00:17:00] Nicholson gets top billing.
[00:17:01] Because he's a bigger actor.
[00:17:02] And I wonder how much of that.
[00:17:04] I mean.
[00:17:04] Like.
[00:17:05] Was this the story.
[00:17:06] Or when.
[00:17:07] Once Nicholson signed on.
[00:17:09] Was it more like.
[00:17:09] Hey.
[00:17:10] We.
[00:17:16] More so post.
[00:17:17] You know.
[00:17:18] Post casting.
[00:17:19] Then.
[00:17:20] You know.
[00:17:20] I don't know.
[00:17:21] I mean.
[00:17:21] It's a.
[00:17:22] It's a very.
[00:17:24] Interesting approach.
[00:17:25] And I think that's one of the things.
[00:17:25] That comes out of that.
[00:17:27] That later.
[00:17:27] Is that like.
[00:17:28] Even returns.
[00:17:29] And then the rest of.
[00:17:30] Sort of that first quadrilogy.
[00:17:32] If you want to connect them all together.
[00:17:35] Really is focused on.
[00:17:37] Origins of all these.
[00:17:38] Or these villains.
[00:17:39] Like Batman is.
[00:17:40] Kind of a given.
[00:17:42] We live in a world where Batman exists.
[00:17:44] And let's find out.
[00:17:45] How do we.
[00:17:46] Like.
[00:17:47] It's.
[00:17:47] It's Batman getting.
[00:17:49] Getting his biggest challenges.
[00:17:51] Because Batman.
[00:17:51] And then Batman kind of gets short shrift.
[00:17:53] And to some degree.
[00:17:54] I mean.
[00:17:54] You know.
[00:17:55] Keaton is.
[00:17:55] I still think he's great.
[00:17:57] But like.
[00:17:58] We don't get the tortured Batman.
[00:18:01] Like.
[00:18:01] We do later.
[00:18:03] Well.
[00:18:03] And it's interesting.
[00:18:05] Because I think that.
[00:18:06] It's almost like.
[00:18:07] Nicholson hams it up.
[00:18:09] More than he has in any other role.
[00:18:11] And Keaton.
[00:18:12] At this point.
[00:18:13] Was kind of known for being a ham.
[00:18:16] And he.
[00:18:17] He really kind of.
[00:18:18] Tries to play it.
[00:18:20] A little bit.
[00:18:21] More subdued.
[00:18:22] He's a little bit.
[00:18:23] Little.
[00:18:24] Not quite smoldering.
[00:18:25] But definitely.
[00:18:26] Under the surface.
[00:18:28] Yeah.
[00:18:29] And.
[00:18:29] And it does come out.
[00:18:30] Like he's got some comedic.
[00:18:31] Moments in this film.
[00:18:33] But.
[00:18:34] Like you said.
[00:18:35] Very much overshadowed by the Joker.
[00:18:37] And I wonder if that isn't kind of a genius move on Burton's part.
[00:18:41] Because.
[00:18:42] Set against the Joker.
[00:18:44] Batman seems a little bit less silly.
[00:18:47] In this film.
[00:18:48] It's almost like.
[00:18:50] Gotham City is.
[00:18:51] Is almost.
[00:18:52] Silly.
[00:18:54] Right.
[00:18:55] Batman is the least silly part of.
[00:18:57] Gotham City.
[00:18:58] In this film.
[00:18:59] Yeah.
[00:19:00] Which is kind of.
[00:19:00] Which is kind of cool.
[00:19:01] When you.
[00:19:02] Again.
[00:19:02] We talked about like.
[00:19:04] Burton just says.
[00:19:05] This is a world where Batman can exist.
[00:19:06] So.
[00:19:07] Buckle up.
[00:19:08] Yeah.
[00:19:08] And.
[00:19:09] And in doing so.
[00:19:10] I think that is kind of the way.
[00:19:12] It.
[00:19:12] Is it.
[00:19:12] Like.
[00:19:13] Batman becomes real.
[00:19:15] Because everything else.
[00:19:16] Is.
[00:19:17] Is so fanciful.
[00:19:19] So instead of.
[00:19:20] Instead of trying to ground.
[00:19:21] Batman into our world.
[00:19:22] To make him make sense to us.
[00:19:26] It's.
[00:19:26] It kind of flips the entire perspective.
[00:19:29] To where it's like.
[00:19:29] Yeah.
[00:19:30] Batman's trying to like.
[00:19:31] Reign in this.
[00:19:32] This madness.
[00:19:33] It's almost like.
[00:19:34] This whole film was a fun house mirror.
[00:19:36] And.
[00:19:37] When Batman enters.
[00:19:38] You're like.
[00:19:39] Yeah.
[00:19:39] Guy in a bat costume.
[00:19:41] Yeah.
[00:19:41] Exactly.
[00:19:42] I hope he's got something on his jet.
[00:19:44] That can collect giant balloons.
[00:19:48] Yeah.
[00:19:51] Yeah.
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[00:20:48] Batman was such a big deal.
[00:20:51] This was, like I said, we've seen blockbusters up until this point, so we've been conditioned
[00:20:54] to it.
[00:20:56] But this was different.
[00:20:57] Like, this was the anticipation.
[00:20:59] It almost felt like we were told Batman was coming out, like, it felt like five years
[00:21:05] in advance.
[00:21:05] And all we did was wait.
[00:21:07] I know it wasn't that long, but I mean, you couldn't go anywhere without seeing, like,
[00:21:12] Batman shirts.
[00:21:13] It's like every single department store had them, but they were selling out at, like,
[00:21:17] a record clip.
[00:21:19] Anything.
[00:21:20] But the Batman, just the, it was just the symbol.
[00:21:22] Get a Batman poster that was just the symbol.
[00:21:25] Because that was almost enough to spark a lot of interest.
[00:21:28] Because the last time we saw Batman, and you not so much, but like, I know for me, was
[00:21:34] the campy series.
[00:21:35] So a lot of people were thinking, oh, it's going to be that.
[00:21:38] And at one point, I think it was.
[00:21:40] I think the studio had Bill Murray lined up to be Batman.
[00:21:45] Because I think they were going to follow that same sort of campy approach.
[00:21:49] Which was just kind of fascinating, because it was an, I mean, that was a specific choice
[00:21:55] made by, like, the television studio.
[00:21:57] It's not like Batman comic books were goofy, necessarily.
[00:22:01] I mean, other than, I mean, the fact that it's a bat fighting, like, you know, people
[00:22:05] made of clay.
[00:22:06] But the, it's not like it necessarily had a notoriously goofball tone.
[00:22:13] So it's funny how the pop culture impact of the Batman series sort of framed everybody's
[00:22:21] perception of Batman.
[00:22:22] So the idea that there was going to be a dark or more gothic Batman movie was very intriguing
[00:22:30] to people.
[00:22:31] People were really taken aback.
[00:22:32] Like, that doesn't make sense.
[00:22:33] Batman's only silly.
[00:22:34] And so I think that's one of the things to the studio was gambling against is, can we
[00:22:38] play Batman off type?
[00:22:40] Because for the majority of people, you know, the non-comic book fans, Batman's a comedy.
[00:22:47] Or it's supposed to be silly.
[00:22:49] So the idea that it could be trying to take it seriously was very, you know, it was this,
[00:22:57] almost this enigma that people couldn't quite figure out.
[00:22:59] And so you had that level of anticipation.
[00:23:02] Tim Burton is a pretty hot name.
[00:23:05] When they got Nicholson, it was like, whoa, this has got, like, gravity.
[00:23:09] And then there was the big controversy.
[00:23:11] They're picking Mr. Mom.
[00:23:12] But as soon as it was out, almost immediately, Keaton was beloved.
[00:23:18] Right.
[00:23:18] It seems like for most people, it was like, of course.
[00:23:21] And I think a lot of that has to do with the Bruce Wayne factor.
[00:23:25] And I like Keaton in the sense that they give you a fair amount.
[00:23:32] I mean, considering how much Batman's in it, they give you a fair amount of Bruce Wayne.
[00:23:36] And while later films work so hard to really get the brooding billionaire,
[00:23:47] this one is, it doesn't give us a lot about Bruce Wayne, like, maybe the deep psyche.
[00:23:56] But we get a lot of just him being just good at being Batman.
[00:24:01] Well, his Bruce Wayne is like, he's more eccentric than anything else.
[00:24:08] He's like, I've got all this wealth, and I don't know what to do with it.
[00:24:12] I'm going to travel the world and purchase various suits of armor.
[00:24:18] And maybe not ever go into certain rooms of his house.
[00:24:23] Right.
[00:24:24] His best friend is his butler, who's also his surrogate father.
[00:24:30] And he's almost just quirky more than he is brooding.
[00:24:35] He's quiet.
[00:24:37] And Keaton always has this thing with his eyes.
[00:24:40] Like, he's got very interesting eyes.
[00:24:42] Almost like, I can tell that you're charismatic, but I'm kind of worried that you're a little bit crazy, too.
[00:24:49] Right.
[00:24:50] And I think that's an interesting point that you bring up.
[00:24:51] Like, the eyes of Batman are super important.
[00:24:54] And I think Keaton's eyes, even as Batman in this impossibly uncomfortable suit.
[00:25:02] The thickest layer of rubber.
[00:25:06] I mean, those are like, it's as thick as like ATV tires.
[00:25:09] I mean, it is.
[00:25:11] It's insane how completely non-functional this outfit is.
[00:25:17] And like, every close-up just makes it so much worse.
[00:25:19] I'm like, that is like, is that like three inch thick rubber?
[00:25:22] Like, what's going on here?
[00:25:24] Like, steel belted.
[00:25:26] I believe it's bulletproof.
[00:25:28] But I mean, his eyes do a lot.
[00:25:30] But what's interesting is like, we get so many other Batman.
[00:25:33] And like, so I want to go back to a point that you made.
[00:25:36] And I think it's really key every time I revisit this.
[00:25:39] And I do revisit this movie quite a bit.
[00:25:42] And I think I'm more fascinated by it maybe than I am like a fan.
[00:25:45] I mean, I am a fan.
[00:25:46] I do enjoy it.
[00:25:47] But because of what a big, like, what a pop culture touchstone this was, especially for us at that age.
[00:25:56] And just, I mean, the whole nation was wrapped in Batman fever.
[00:26:00] And so it almost felt like no matter what it was, what was going to come out, people were going to be a little bit like, maybe felt a little disappointed.
[00:26:09] Because the movie does a lot of things that newer Batman movies don't.
[00:26:16] And it ignores a lot of things that a lot of newer Batman movies focus on.
[00:26:22] And in this version of Bruce Wayne Batman, it's eccentric billionaire who also happens to be Batman.
[00:26:31] As opposed to tortured soul who must become Batman.
[00:26:35] Right.
[00:26:36] Well, they kind of nod to the childhood trauma in this.
[00:26:41] Sure.
[00:26:42] But you don't, I mean, Batman Begins is kind of an entire meal served with that particular dish.
[00:26:51] Right.
[00:26:53] In 89 Batman, it's like Batman's been established as this night terror vigilante or creature or something.
[00:27:03] But it feels like Bruce Wayne has been Bruce Wayne for a very long time.
[00:27:07] So much so that Alfred is not thrilled with this particular life choice.
[00:27:15] Right.
[00:27:15] In this movie, every chance that Alfred gets to blow up Wayne's spot, he's going to take it.
[00:27:23] He's going to tell Vicki Vale that they weren't really going to go out of town.
[00:27:27] He's going to bring her to the Batcave without permission.
[00:27:32] Amazing butler, horrible wingman.
[00:27:38] Okay.
[00:27:39] Steve, I have dredged up the Batagories, which we developed for Matt Reeves' The Batman.
[00:27:46] And the first of these categories is the depravity of Gotham City.
[00:27:53] In 2024, we've seen maybe more than half a dozen iterations of Gotham City.
[00:27:59] Does Burton's Gotham City meet or exceed your expectations for the depravity of Gotham?
[00:28:09] Oh, okay.
[00:28:12] I'm going to say yeah.
[00:28:13] I think it's fun.
[00:28:14] I like it a lot.
[00:28:15] And it could be nostalgia.
[00:28:17] But for me, that first wide shot of Gotham City, it is so original.
[00:28:23] It's not New York.
[00:28:25] It's not Chicago.
[00:28:26] It's like this hybrid, you know, cartoon, model, comic book-y Hollywood studio set concocted in Tim Burton's weird mind.
[00:28:38] I like that we start off with what we think is going to be Bruce Wayne's origin story, and it's not.
[00:28:47] Showing that Gotham hasn't changed.
[00:28:51] And essentially, you have a moment where Batman is taking care of his own past by confronting these guys, right?
[00:29:00] It's a dark place.
[00:29:02] It's a wild place.
[00:29:03] And I think it does a good job, like you said, by having sort of that combo of kind of cartoon, kind of model, kind of real.
[00:29:10] But definitely, it feels fictional.
[00:29:13] As soon as you do that, as soon as you create this clearly fictional world, I think you allow yourself to have Batman exist.
[00:29:23] You need a setting that makes sense of a billionaire and a cowl.
[00:29:27] Right.
[00:29:28] And I wonder, watching this movie, and then again, I enjoy almost every Batman movie I've seen.
[00:29:38] And almost, because Batman versus Superman exists.
[00:29:42] It's the more real Gotham becomes, the more unrealistic Batman becomes as well, right?
[00:29:51] Well, the less iconic superhero mystique Batman can have.
[00:29:56] In fact, in the movies, movies spend so much time trying to convince me that Batman could exist, that I'm missing out on Batman existing.
[00:30:05] So, if you're like Nolan, and I enjoy Nolan to a certain extent, but if you're like Nolan and you want to go for hyperrealism, then what you've got to do is you've got to put Batman in a military frogman suit.
[00:30:21] And his suit is for the purpose of tactical utility, which is fine.
[00:30:27] That's interesting to me.
[00:30:28] Eventually, we're going to want to see the cowl and cape.
[00:30:32] And it also creates a problem with the villains.
[00:30:35] Because if you go through a lot of effort to make Batman real, and the concept of Batman real, then you start to limit what else you can do and introduce, right?
[00:30:47] Like, you start to tick off a bunch of Batman villains from the comics.
[00:30:52] Yeah, you might not get a penguin man piloting a submarine.
[00:30:57] Right.
[00:31:00] Whereas, I think Tim Burton does a really fun job of saying, look, this is a world where Batman exists.
[00:31:06] So, not necessarily anything goes.
[00:31:10] But, like, if Superman showed up, I think I'd be okay with it.
[00:31:15] Like, you can't see, like, and I know that's what Zack Snyder was trying to do with Batman versus Superman and Justice League and everything.
[00:31:21] It was like trying to, well, let's kind of sci-fi it up.
[00:31:24] Which, you know, is, I think it's an approach that could work.
[00:31:30] But it has to be pretty intentional, right?
[00:31:33] So, it's, but I, we're, again, we're starting to get so conditioned to the idea of Batman being this grounded, hyper real character that we lose some of the magic.
[00:31:42] And I feel like Tim Burton does a really good job of letting them, like, the Joker just has stuff with his logo on it.
[00:31:49] And why wouldn't he?
[00:31:50] And why not?
[00:31:52] Why not?
[00:31:53] Okay.
[00:31:54] So, I want to ask you this next one because this does lead back to the Bat Suit.
[00:31:59] Every Batman movie has a scene where Batman emerges from the shadows.
[00:32:03] And usually this is the first reveal of the Bat Suit.
[00:32:08] Burton's version of this is a little bit funny.
[00:32:11] Because Batman is trying to be spooky more than anything else.
[00:32:16] Yeah.
[00:32:17] He's got some gadgets that allow him to look like he's hovering.
[00:32:23] And when he menaces the criminals of Gotham City, there's just a lot of arm raising.
[00:32:29] And that arm raising causes these criminals to just go insane.
[00:32:36] Psychological warfare, man.
[00:32:37] Give them credit.
[00:32:38] The fear of this Bat Suit is too much to take.
[00:32:42] They break down psychologically.
[00:32:44] But what about you, Steve?
[00:32:45] How did the Batman emerges from the shadow scene hold up in your estimation?
[00:32:51] Did you break down psychologically?
[00:32:55] I, uh...
[00:32:55] Yeah, I...
[00:32:56] And again, this is one of the things where it's like I look back through the lens of all the other ones.
[00:33:02] And, like, how dramatic...
[00:33:04] And, like, he comes in, like, powerful in the other film.
[00:33:07] Um...
[00:33:08] But this one makes sense to me.
[00:33:11] It also kind of sets a tone that says, look, this is...
[00:33:16] He's frightening in a theatrical way.
[00:33:21] And...
[00:33:23] He's all cape.
[00:33:25] He is all cape.
[00:33:26] Yeah.
[00:33:26] Well, he can't turn his head.
[00:33:28] Uh...
[00:33:29] So that helps.
[00:33:31] Um...
[00:33:31] I...
[00:33:32] Yeah, I mean, definitely...
[00:33:34] It does...
[00:33:34] It's...
[00:33:34] Is it the goofiest of all the Batmans we've seen?
[00:33:38] But in the context of this world, in the context of this Gotham City, he just comes just sort of majestically, you know, gliding in.
[00:33:48] And then they don't know what to do with them.
[00:33:51] And he just raises it up.
[00:33:52] And it's...
[00:33:54] The reason why I think it works is because...
[00:33:57] Hey, everybody.
[00:33:58] He's dressed as a bat.
[00:34:01] He's a human person dressed as a bat.
[00:34:04] And it would be weird if he didn't try to show that off a little bit.
[00:34:10] You know, we want him, like...
[00:34:11] We want our later Batmans to be like, oh, yeah, I mean, he's dressed as a bat.
[00:34:14] But, like, if you think about it psychologically, he's...
[00:34:16] See, he's actually scared of bats.
[00:34:17] What he's trying to do is he's trying to harness his own fears.
[00:34:19] So that's why he has a pointy hat on.
[00:34:21] That makes perfect sense.
[00:34:22] And he has a cape.
[00:34:23] Well, the cape serves a different function.
[00:34:24] Like, in this case, it's like, no, I'm dressed as a bat.
[00:34:26] I'm Batman.
[00:34:27] I have an insignia that's, you know, bright yellow.
[00:34:31] I'm a bat.
[00:34:32] Look at me.
[00:34:32] I'm a bat.
[00:34:32] Yeah, that's exactly what this Batman should do.
[00:34:37] All right.
[00:34:39] I'm going to say, in retrospect, this could have been done differently.
[00:34:43] You don't need to show off your cape.
[00:34:45] I really do feel like you look like a freak.
[00:34:48] You look like you're in a costume, raising your arms above your head.
[00:34:53] To really accentuate the bat wings over the top.
[00:34:57] Not necessary.
[00:34:58] Act like you've been here before, Bruce.
[00:35:03] He's letting it be known.
[00:35:04] I mean, he's letting...
[00:35:05] So right now, he's rumor.
[00:35:07] Right?
[00:35:09] Oh, sure.
[00:35:10] Because they don't...
[00:35:11] Some of the street toughs don't even believe he exists.
[00:35:15] Right.
[00:35:15] So he takes this opportunity to tell the guy, look, I want you to tell all your friends about me.
[00:35:24] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:25] And it's just, you know, nice that he has so many friends.
[00:35:29] So that's the third category here.
[00:35:31] Third bat-t-gory, if you will.
[00:35:33] Batman freaks out a street tough.
[00:35:36] And for me, this was spot on.
[00:35:38] This was perfect.
[00:35:39] We get the iconic, I'm Batman.
[00:35:43] Batman in the growly voice.
[00:35:46] Which he doesn't keep up over the entire movie.
[00:35:49] Right.
[00:35:50] But just that iconic, menacing Batman voice freaks him out.
[00:35:55] He really freaks him out, too.
[00:35:57] I mean...
[00:35:58] Right.
[00:35:58] They probably are taken directly to Arkham Asylum.
[00:36:02] So this one absolutely is a yes for me.
[00:36:06] What about you?
[00:36:06] Yeah, I'm all in on it.
[00:36:09] To me, that is the gold standard.
[00:36:12] And so anytime Batman has that moment, I'm always comparing it to this one.
[00:36:16] Because it was such an iconic moment in a film that was, again, so highly anticipated.
[00:36:24] And it was so...
[00:36:25] Everybody was excited for it.
[00:36:27] You know, I'm Batman.
[00:36:29] So now it's like, all right, rumor's done.
[00:36:32] Now you know what to call me.
[00:36:33] Tell all your friends about me.
[00:36:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:35] You know, there's a new sheriff in town.
[00:36:38] Yeah.
[00:36:38] And the choice to be a little bit raspy in the scene creates an entire career for Will Arnett.
[00:36:47] Like, Will Arnett does not exist if Keaton decides to go a different direction with this Batboy.
[00:36:53] All right, next category.
[00:36:55] Batman deals with childhood trauma.
[00:36:58] Um, I think it's okay.
[00:37:01] I mean, obviously, this is the first one we get a chance to see.
[00:37:04] And so, um...
[00:37:07] I think we get a better...
[00:37:09] The childhood trauma is important for us to understand kind of why he's Batman.
[00:37:15] But more importantly, the biggest part of the reveal in this is that the Joker killed his parents.
[00:37:21] Definitely feels like it's more about what this relationship currently is.
[00:37:28] Um, and on rewatch, I forgot that they...
[00:37:33] They used a younger actor who kind of looks like Nicholson to play that role.
[00:37:39] Right.
[00:37:39] And this really worked for me.
[00:37:40] I was like, oh, they didn't try to de-age him.
[00:37:43] They didn't try to, like, you know, tape his cheeks up like Joe Pesci and my cousin Vinny.
[00:37:50] Like, they just chose an actor that believably looks like a young Nicholson.
[00:37:57] So I was really thrilled with this.
[00:37:58] I liked this a lot.
[00:37:59] And I'll be honest, I'm not really all that interested in childhood trauma of my superheroes.
[00:38:06] I like origin stories, but I don't want you to, like, make a whole meal out of the childhood trauma.
[00:38:12] So I think this was just the right amount.
[00:38:15] All right.
[00:38:16] And fifth Bat-agory, usually in a Batman movie, we'll see a new Bat-gadget revealed.
[00:38:24] Sometimes it's on his belt.
[00:38:25] Sometimes it's just some bit of technology that he has.
[00:38:29] What gadget in this film serves that purpose for you?
[00:38:34] Well, I mean, to some degree, all of it, right?
[00:38:37] Because this is our first Batman film.
[00:38:43] Yeah, but we haven't seen grappling hooks before.
[00:38:46] Right.
[00:38:46] The Bat-plane is new.
[00:38:49] Bat-plane is new?
[00:38:51] The way the Bat-plane looks is fantastic.
[00:38:54] Keep in mind, this logo is very, like, movie-specific, right?
[00:38:57] Like, if you look at the way the Bat symbol has changed over all the different films, this one's perfect for marketing.
[00:39:04] There are moments in films that I wait for.
[00:39:07] Like, there are just certain moments, like, iconic moments in films that I wait for.
[00:39:12] And one of the moments that I'm anticipating, I know it's coming, I can't wait to see it, it never disappoints, it's when the Bat-plane zips up and hangs for just a moment over the full moon to create that iconic Bat symbol.
[00:39:30] Right.
[00:39:30] I love that theme.
[00:39:31] I love it every time.
[00:39:33] I do, too.
[00:39:33] It never gets old.
[00:39:35] My Bat-gadget was also plane-related.
[00:39:38] It was the balloon pincers.
[00:39:42] Very serendipitous to have those.
[00:39:44] Yeah.
[00:39:45] The Bat-plane just happens to have these two little, like, wire clippers at the front of the plane that are perfect for collecting wires, taking them up into the air, clipping them so that the balloons fly away.
[00:40:04] Well, but I always liked the idea, too, that, like, those pincers were already there.
[00:40:08] Yeah.
[00:40:11] And they were, but they were for a different purpose.
[00:40:13] And it, you know, he's like, oh, cool, I'll use these pincers for this.
[00:40:18] The really tall hedges at Gotham Manor.
[00:40:23] The, uh, I think, I think maybe, I, I'll, I'll say, I'll, I'll actually say, I think the biggest gadget in this film is the suit.
[00:40:34] I think at this point we hadn't thought of Batman as wearing, like, Kevlar or something like that.
[00:40:40] Yeah, Batman, like, we, again, if we're just going to the series, it's tights.
[00:40:44] It's, it's very, it's the similar thing as Superman, right?
[00:40:46] Like, he's wearing, he's wearing, like, body, the shape to his body, spandex and cape and a mask.
[00:40:54] So this was, like, that was, I think, a big deal.
[00:40:57] I mean, I remember when, when the first images leaked of him in the suit, you're like, whoa.
[00:41:02] First off, all black.
[00:41:03] That, he's been gray and blue.
[00:41:06] Um, so that was a huge difference.
[00:41:10] Like, still keeping the utility belt, which is awesome.
[00:41:13] Still has the cape, still has the cowl.
[00:41:14] But, but the idea that, um, the, uh, the, the flare, you know, on his, on his gloves actually, um, can, like, stop blades.
[00:41:26] In case, you know, there's a ninja joker henchman.
[00:41:30] And, uh, and so, like, that, like, that scene was awesome.
[00:41:33] So I think, I think, to me, that more than all the grappling hooks and stuff, which was kind of expected, the suit, the suit was functional.
[00:41:40] And I think that maybe was the biggest, uh, the biggest gadget reveal for this film.
[00:41:45] Right.
[00:41:46] All right.
[00:41:46] I like that a lot.
[00:41:47] Sixth category, the relationship with Gordon.
[00:41:51] Now, this film doesn't really do it.
[00:41:56] We, we don't really see the bat signal until the end of the film.
[00:42:00] Right.
[00:42:00] So, so this film is not interested in establishing a relationship between Gordon and Batman.
[00:42:08] And so, because it doesn't really, it's not really trying to do that, I feel like it's almost a non-applicable category.
[00:42:16] Right.
[00:42:17] Well, and it, and I did find it interesting how, like, Commissioner Gordon, um, plays it.
[00:42:22] I mean, he's always, he's, he's a big role.
[00:42:24] He's a big figure.
[00:42:25] Uh, they didn't get necessarily a big name to play Gordon.
[00:42:29] Um, which almost suggests that they don't, like, maybe Tim Burton didn't see the relationship with Gordon as, as integral.
[00:42:38] Or, in, integral as maybe other, uh, iterations do later.
[00:42:42] Where it's like, yeah, he's, he's the guy, he's the contact.
[00:42:45] But, like, maybe there's nothing, you know, uh, I just noticed that by, by the casting choice, it seemed as though it was like, yeah, no, he's, he's an important part.
[00:42:54] But, uh, to the degree that Batman has contact with the police.
[00:42:58] Um, as opposed to, you know, some sort of deeper relationship.
[00:43:03] Well, and he's also kind of serves as the, the, there is one cop who's not dirty.
[00:43:10] Right.
[00:43:10] There's a, there's a, someone he can trust.
[00:43:12] It's definitely a theme, right?
[00:43:13] I mean, all of them have crooked cops, all, all Batman movies.
[00:43:17] Next one.
[00:43:18] The Alfred relationship.
[00:43:22] For me, I think that Michael Caine is probably the best Alfred at this point.
[00:43:27] Yeah.
[00:43:28] Um, but, you know, this is an interesting Alfred.
[00:43:32] I mean, he's not your garden variety butler.
[00:43:35] Um, but they're not doing kind of like he used to be a badass himself.
[00:43:41] You know, that they, more recent movies have done that.
[00:43:44] Right.
[00:43:45] He's just a cheeky old guy who, you know, makes sure that the, uh, the bar is well stocked and that Vicki Vale finds the bat cave.
[00:43:56] Again, this is one, I think, this is an area I think that does improve later with other films is, um,
[00:44:02] because he has to serve not only as, uh, as kind of a surrogate father but almost, um, a conscience.
[00:44:09] Right.
[00:44:10] And, uh, their relationship in this feels, it doesn't feel nearly as close.
[00:44:18] I mean, close in the sense of almost maybe just proximity and, and, uh, experience but not necessarily maybe relationship wise.
[00:44:27] It's, it's, it's an odd one.
[00:44:28] Um,
[00:44:29] He's almost a matchmaker in this film.
[00:44:31] It's like, you know, you don't really need a love interest for a Batman movie to work but Vicki Vale is very important to this movie.
[00:44:40] And, and, I guess, Kim Basinger is the perfect person for this because in this movie you just see a photo of her and you fall in love.
[00:44:50] Like, Vicki Vale has the greatest power of any person in this movie.
[00:44:58] Whatever room she walks into, men just fall in love with it.
[00:45:02] Yeah, Robert Wool is, is, is over the moon.
[00:45:05] But here's, here's the problem.
[00:45:08] If you don't have Alfred to kind of mediate the relationship, why does that first date work?
[00:45:14] Right.
[00:45:15] I've often found that if I'm on a first date and it's not working, what I need is an old man to come in the room.
[00:45:21] Always.
[00:45:22] And just.
[00:45:23] Old man on speed dial.
[00:45:26] Entertain my, uh, my special gal.
[00:45:30] With, with droll stories.
[00:45:34] Perfect.
[00:45:35] Perfect.
[00:45:35] Um, the Batmobile.
[00:45:37] The Batmobile.
[00:45:37] I'll go first on this one.
[00:45:39] Okay.
[00:45:40] Um, we saw the Batmobile before the movie came out, right?
[00:45:43] I believe so, yeah.
[00:45:44] I think if you were watching it.
[00:45:46] We, we, yeah, I think that there was like, like you could win the Batmobile with some kind of contest through MTV.
[00:45:54] The thing that was most impressive to me is the shield scene.
[00:46:01] Oh yeah.
[00:46:02] When he's running away from the Batmobile.
[00:46:05] You know?
[00:46:05] And the crowd's all around it.
[00:46:07] And he just says shield.
[00:46:10] Does he say into his cowl, into his wrist?
[00:46:13] I don't know where.
[00:46:13] He's got like a little, little remote something or other.
[00:46:17] She's got a remote something or other.
[00:46:18] And then the entire vehicle goes into like a tortoise shell.
[00:46:23] I just thought that was the coolest thing I never thought.
[00:46:26] Yeah.
[00:46:26] No, the Bat, that Batmobile is, uh, it's the Batmobile by which I think all other Batmobiles must be judged.
[00:46:32] For me, that's sort of the platonic ideal of a Batmobile.
[00:46:36] There's nothing quite like it.
[00:46:37] I mean, and also there's nothing like it.
[00:46:39] You know what I mean?
[00:46:41] Um, every, I mean, okay.
[00:46:44] You know, in, in the Nolan verse, you've got like, it's kind of like a tank, right?
[00:46:48] Essentially.
[00:46:49] Um, and I mean, that's, and I understand there's a lot of pressure to come up with a unique, a unique Batmobile.
[00:46:55] And it is, I mean, it's certainly unique and there's no question about it.
[00:46:58] And it's a, it's a, it's, it fits that world.
[00:47:00] Like these Batmobiles fit their world.
[00:47:02] And this one fits this world amazingly.
[00:47:07] In fact, it makes it to me, it's, it's what Bert, I mean, Bert's vision of what Gotham city should be.
[00:47:14] And then everything around it just, just makes sense.
[00:47:17] Like it just in that, like he creates a kind of self-contained universe that is in a way though,
[00:47:25] I mean, like this is the universe where by the time we get to Batman returns, I'm like, yep.
[00:47:29] Army of penguins makes sense.
[00:47:33] Uh, next category, uh, Bruce Wayne's currency as a social elite.
[00:47:38] All right.
[00:47:39] All right.
[00:47:39] Now for my money, Keaton's the best at this.
[00:47:42] I totally believe when we meet him at that party for the first time, this guy just kind of works in that role.
[00:47:51] And, and, uh, so to have someone that can actually pull off the Bruce Wayne thing and the Batman thing is kind of amazing.
[00:48:01] So I think an underrated bit of this movie is this scene between, uh, Keaton and Basinger.
[00:48:09] You know how people have different sides to their personality?
[00:48:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:48:15] Sometimes a, uh, a person will have to actually lead a different life.
[00:48:22] Oh my God, you're married.
[00:48:24] No, I'm not married.
[00:48:27] Take something else.
[00:48:30] You see, my life is really complex.
[00:48:40] All right, listen.
[00:48:45] You know how a normal person gets...
[00:48:47] I just love to hear him bumble over trying to explain why it would make any sense at all for a billionaire to go out at night dressed up like a big bat.
[00:48:59] Right.
[00:48:59] It's almost one of these things where it's like, you know, I'm about to say out loud that, um, I dress up as a bat.
[00:49:07] Like on the regular.
[00:49:11] Like not at Halloween.
[00:49:13] Right.
[00:49:13] And I, and I like that.
[00:49:14] And I think, and I think this scene serves as a, as a jumping off point for like every other Batman movie from this point forward because it's like, it's trying to make this conversation make sense.
[00:49:26] Yeah, you're making the entire movie out of this conversation.
[00:49:29] Yeah.
[00:49:30] And whereas the, whereas this movie is just like, I'm not going to tell you how the Frankenstein monster was made.
[00:49:36] Like, it's just here.
[00:49:40] Deal with it.
[00:49:41] That's the interesting part.
[00:49:45] Okay.
[00:49:45] So here's, I did want to ask you another question.
[00:49:48] So these two fall in love very quickly.
[00:49:50] I mean, this is almost a, uh, I mean, in many ways, this is a very, very, this is a movie with very old fashioned sensibilities.
[00:50:02] I guess everyone's wearing fedoras.
[00:50:04] So that's one thing.
[00:50:06] Yeah.
[00:50:07] Um, so it's, it's a movie that exists in a world with both prints and fedoras.
[00:50:12] Uh, so you've got that world.
[00:50:14] It feels like it's maybe owned and operated by Bruno Mars, but, uh, but they have one date.
[00:50:23] Like she's expecting a lot from one date and Alfred's expecting like, maybe they're going to get married after one date.
[00:50:30] Um, I'm wondering if this relationship actually makes sense to you.
[00:50:34] Um, I mean, he's a billionaire.
[00:50:40] He does have those Michael Keaton eyes.
[00:50:42] Yeah.
[00:50:44] You could put up with a lot.
[00:50:46] Yeah.
[00:50:46] I mean, they, I mean, they love each other immediately.
[00:50:48] And I, I mean, it is one of those things where it does feel, it almost feels like there was a, a, a, a needed formula in the late eighties.
[00:50:55] It's like, okay, you gotta have a love story.
[00:50:57] That's going to help.
[00:50:59] Um, but I don't, and so I think the part for me, that's a, maybe it takes me a little bit out of it.
[00:51:04] It's like, well, they don't have to be like this in love.
[00:51:06] Right.
[00:51:07] He's, he's coming out of like being reclusive.
[00:51:09] Right.
[00:51:12] Let's not, let's not sleep on the fact that this is a recluse.
[00:51:17] Yeah.
[00:51:18] Like, yeah, sure.
[00:51:18] He could just look like a bat.
[00:51:20] Like everyone's got their kink.
[00:51:21] Let's not forget the fact that this guy is very antisocial.
[00:51:25] Yeah.
[00:51:25] And the crazy thing is, is he never leaves his house, but also doesn't go into a bunch of it.
[00:51:33] He prefers to hang out in the caves below the house.
[00:51:37] Right.
[00:51:38] All right.
[00:51:38] So he wears rubber.
[00:51:42] That man reflects on his vigilantism.
[00:51:45] I think that the closest thing that we get, uh, to this is this conversation with Vicky Bale, because he's, he's trying to explain it to himself as, as much as he is to her.
[00:51:56] Right.
[00:51:56] Uh, you know, like, you know, this is, this is normal for me, but you know, everyone's kind of got a little duality in their life.
[00:52:03] Right.
[00:52:04] Next Batagory.
[00:52:05] Batman meets an equal or more powerful vigilante.
[00:52:11] Gotham City always brings a smile to my face.
[00:52:28] Rises.
[00:52:35] Love, love that line.
[00:52:38] Oh man.
[00:52:38] Just the face, the eyes.
[00:52:40] And one of the biggest knocks on this film was, well, Jack Nicholson's just plain Jack Nicholson.
[00:52:46] And I'm thinking, that's what you want out of him.
[00:52:48] Like, why would you want something else from him?
[00:52:51] Oh yeah.
[00:52:52] Yeah.
[00:52:52] And I, and I don't, and I would argue that yes, he's, you know, he's definitely being Nicholson, but like, he's getting to be his favorite part of being Jack Nicholson.
[00:53:05] Right.
[00:53:06] Like he, he gets to just be like, he, he gets like the keys to his own, uh, you know, ego and mind.
[00:53:15] And he just, and it's, and it's like, you know, you know who does Jack Nicholson the best?
[00:53:19] Jack Nicholson.
[00:53:20] Watch.
[00:53:24] He's so great.
[00:53:26] He's having so much fun in this film.
[00:53:28] It's, it's hard not to root for him.
[00:53:29] Right.
[00:53:30] And that, and that's the thing too.
[00:53:31] That's really fascinating too, is that he does play him with a, with a fair amount of dark humor, uh, actual humor.
[00:53:38] Like he really shows some, some comedy chops.
[00:53:41] He's like, yay, I'm the Joker.
[00:53:43] Like it's, there's a genuine glee.
[00:53:48] Never touch another or never, never rub another man's rhubarb is one of my absolute favorite lines.
[00:53:52] You've got so many great lines in this.
[00:53:55] I think that Ledger almost edges out both Joaquin Phoenix and Nicholson.
[00:54:05] But I think it just in terms of like, for my own enjoyment, it's Nicholson.
[00:54:11] I agree.
[00:54:12] And I, but I also think that like, like the Batmobiles, um, these, they were the right Jokers for the, for the world they were in.
[00:54:19] Um, in the, in the, the, this, the nihilistic sort of chaos agent of Heath Ledger's in, in the world of the dark night, um, makes way more sense in that world.
[00:54:32] Then you couldn't put Nicholson's Joker there.
[00:54:35] Obviously.
[00:54:36] I mean, just for, for a variety of reasons, but like, I think just because of there's, there's a camp factor.
[00:54:42] There's, um, there's a different level of, of humor that goes on here.
[00:54:48] And then, uh, and then of course, uh, uh, Phoenix is a Joker, lives in a, a Joker centric world where, where Batman is, um, not even, not even realized yet.
[00:55:00] Right.
[00:55:01] Um, that's right.
[00:55:02] And the other thing I was going to say about Nicholson is because he is so over the top, because he's hamming it up and he's almost like cranking it to 11 in every scene.
[00:55:13] It almost makes a guy in a bat suit feel a little bit less over the top.
[00:55:19] Right.
[00:55:20] Yeah.
[00:55:20] I would agree with that.
[00:55:21] There's a lot of really cool things I think that are, that, that Burton does with the idea that he, he now looks like this, you know, it gives him a way different origin story than I think anybody else has done.
[00:55:34] Um, so Burton takes a lot of non Batman-y liberties, uh, which is interesting because I know that that, like there's some problems that people have.
[00:55:43] Obviously cause Batman, Tim Burton's Batman kills, doesn't have a problem with it.
[00:55:46] There's like, there's not that, that, uh,
[00:55:49] Oh, I hadn't thought about that.
[00:55:50] You're right about that.
[00:55:51] And yeah.
[00:55:52] And it's, there's that one henchman that looks a lot like Ray Charles who actually does really well.
[00:55:58] You know, they're, they're, they're the top of the church tower and, uh, the Ray Charles guy is just kicking his ass.
[00:56:06] Yeah.
[00:56:07] And then he ends up hucking the guy while he, he bonks him with the bell.
[00:56:11] And then grabs him with the legs, right?
[00:56:14] And then, uh, he, you know, his boot hoists him down, down the vault.
[00:56:21] Uh, unfortunately, um, in Burton's universe, Ray Charles was not around to participate in We Are the World.
[00:56:32] It's just the way it goes.
[00:56:34] Unfortunately.
[00:56:34] But luckily Prince is still around.
[00:56:37] That's right.
[00:56:38] So he can, he can, maybe he'll have another shot.
[00:56:42] Okay.
[00:56:43] Final batagory.
[00:56:46] Batman brings hope to Gotham city.
[00:56:50] I think that this one does the best out of any Batman movie for me because the bat signal is introduced and it's like, now we got a solution.
[00:57:02] You know, we, we, this guy's a friend of the city.
[00:57:05] This is the bat signal.
[00:57:08] As long as it's not a clear night and it's cloudy, we can, we can defeat all of the criminals.
[00:57:16] Yeah.
[00:57:16] Summer, summer is the time.
[00:57:20] If you're the penguin, just, just make a career out of summer.
[00:57:25] Steve, is this movie better or worse to run on par with a Ron Howard?
[00:57:28] Oh, it's, it's a, I think it's a Howard plus three.
[00:57:31] There, there are, I think maybe some storytelling elements that, that maybe feel properly Howard, but I, I just think visually and how ambitious it is.
[00:57:40] I think it's a, it, it exceeds.
[00:57:45] Yeah.
[00:57:45] I can't imagine anyone but Burton.
[00:57:47] So Howard plus, I was going to say Howard plus two, but I could see Howard plus three.
[00:57:52] This is a movie that I think, cause I, I just recently watched Beetlejuice, the original Beetlejuice for the first time.
[00:58:01] And I enjoyed it, but for me, this is Burton at his best.
[00:58:08] It's sort of Burton at the height of his powers.
[00:58:11] And I think that you might want to make a case for Batman Returns.
[00:58:16] Yes.
[00:58:17] I think Batman Returns is, is my favorite Batman film.
[00:58:21] And that, and you would say that that is more Burton.
[00:58:25] It, I, yeah, because I think what happens is, uh, Batman is, is smash success, obviously.
[00:58:31] Um, and, and the studio is like, look, you did it.
[00:58:35] You got the magic.
[00:58:36] Do it again.
[00:58:37] And they just let them do it.
[00:58:39] So everything we get, I mean, Batman Returns is probably closer to a horror film than it is an action.
[00:58:47] In many ways, there's a lot of grotesque scenes.
[00:58:49] Um, it's super dark.
[00:58:51] Um, the, uh, the origin stories of, of the penguin and, and, uh, Catwoman are, are pretty gnarly.
[00:59:00] Um, uh, the penguins plan.
[00:59:03] It's just kidnap.
[00:59:05] What happened to Vicki Vale in that film?
[00:59:08] They, they do make reference to her.
[00:59:11] I don't think she could, she, she just can't handle that smoke, essentially.
[00:59:14] Um.
[00:59:15] You're telling me that the one night romance doesn't last for a lifetime?
[00:59:21] No, no.
[00:59:22] I, oh, the dynamic between, uh, Catwoman and Batman is just pretty great.
[00:59:28] It's great.
[00:59:29] I, walking is great in it.
[00:59:31] Uh, yeah, I, I really, really enjoy it.
[00:59:34] But I think it's, but I think that was the problem too, was one of the reasons why you don't get more Burton.
[00:59:40] Uh, it didn't do as well.
[00:59:41] It did well, but it was also kind of mixed feelings about it because it was so dark.
[00:59:45] And, like, I know McDonald's came under, under fire because every kid wants the Happy Meal, but not every kid can go see this movie.
[00:59:52] And so it's, um, I think you start seeing Tim Burton getting closer to, like, a Sleepy Hollow type, uh, um, directing as opposed to, like, the Beetlejuice side.
[01:00:01] Um, so I like it.
[01:00:03] I mean, I think it's, I think it's got a great aesthetic.
[01:00:04] I think it takes a lot of the, the suit is improved.
[01:00:08] Um, the, there's some just incredible visuals in it.
[01:00:12] Uh, I, I love Batman Returns.
[01:00:14] And I like this one a lot too.
[01:00:16] And I, but I do, but again, you can have an army of penguins and you can have a, uh, a Catwoman that essentially keeps dying and coming back to life.
[01:00:25] She's got nine lives and it's just, it's just given that that's the case.
[01:00:29] Right.
[01:00:29] Uh, and I, I, and I like that.
[01:00:32] I like the idea.
[01:00:33] It's like, yeah, this is the, this couldn't exist in the Batman or, or in Nolan's world.
[01:00:38] You're, I mean, you're, you're Catwoman again, has to, it all has to sort of make sense.
[01:00:42] Um, and Tim Burton's not really interested in the world where a guy dresses up like a bat and is fighting villains named the Joker, the penguin, Catwoman, Clayface, whatever, what have you.
[01:00:54] Making sense isn't the point.
[01:00:57] Making the story is the point.
[01:00:59] And I, and the movie just assumes that that's what I think this Batman does well.
[01:01:03] Instead of giving you a lot of origins and trying to steep it into reality, it just says you're in this world and these are the players in it.
[01:01:12] So one thing that, uh, Nolan doesn't have, Batman 2 doesn't have, but this film has.
[01:01:19] There's a hidden gem I like to call Jack Palin.
[01:01:25] Oh, baby.
[01:01:29] It's an important job I need.
[01:01:31] Someone I can trust.
[01:01:34] You are my number one guy.
[01:01:43] Don't forget.
[01:01:47] Has there ever been an actor more breathy than Jack Palin?
[01:01:52] He is like the acting equivalent of like Kenny Loggins and some of his slower music.
[01:01:56] Like they're just so impossibly breathy.
[01:01:59] It's like breathing for four men.
[01:02:02] You know, like that he's using the word sugar bumps.
[01:02:09] I don't think I've ever heard that anywhere else.
[01:02:11] But, uh, why not?
[01:02:13] His death scene is so incredibly Jack Palin.
[01:02:21] So I like how Burton, that Burton creates this like noir, uh, approach.
[01:02:27] Um, it's fantastical at the same time.
[01:02:29] It's just really just, it's, it's so fun to look at.
[01:02:33] And that's one of the things that I think is, um, where I think I also kind of maybe the bat, you know, other Batman movies.
[01:02:39] Uh, you know, they're, they're so dreary.
[01:02:42] Um, because, you know, they're trying to make Gotham this, you know, Gotham tries to take a mind of its own.
[01:02:49] But in this case, I mean, Gotham is much, it feels like a character.
[01:02:54] So much so that there's a few scenes, just a couple.
[01:02:58] When you first are introduced to Batman, his shadow is, um, almost claymation.
[01:03:05] Yeah, it's definitely animated.
[01:03:07] The shadow is like a stop motion kind of shadow.
[01:03:10] And then when you, when the Joker finally falls to his death, when he's plummeting down the side of the building, he almost becomes a cartoon halfway down.
[01:03:22] Yeah.
[01:03:22] And it's almost like Burton is sort of like, I really want to use claymation at some point, but it's just a little wink.
[01:03:31] Yeah, it definitely feels like it comes off the pages of a comic book more so than some of the other ones.
[01:03:35] I like that there's an art gallery where you can get spaghetti and cake.
[01:03:41] At the same time.
[01:03:43] Same time.
[01:03:43] You can have your wife order one and you can order the other.
[01:03:47] I mean, that happens sometimes, you know, when we can't decide between something like, hey, you order that, I'll order that, we'll share.
[01:03:52] I just never thought of getting spaghetti and cake simultaneously.
[01:03:55] I like the idea that they're sharing bites.
[01:03:57] Yeah, I like the idea, too, that there's like maybe seven people that can dine there at any given time.
[01:04:03] I love that art scene.
[01:04:05] It's great.
[01:04:06] I was watching this and my daughter came in while we were watching and she's seen this movie a bunch, too.
[01:04:11] But and I was explaining to her that, you know, at one point this was considered a very controversial scene because some people were very upset that the Joker was defacing all this art.
[01:04:21] He defaces faces.
[01:04:24] Right.
[01:04:25] That's not a problem.