#63 - American Gangster

[00:00:00] or your crime?

[00:00:19] The Properly Howard, a podcast that reviews classic films and other full fiction.

[00:00:25] Today we look at the 2007 crime drama American Gangster.

[00:00:29] Directed by Ridley Scott, American Gangster stars Denzel Washington as Frank Lucas, a rising

[00:00:34] kingpin in the New York heroin trade who is betrayed by a chinchilla hat, and Russell

[00:00:39] Crowe as the detective out to stop him who apparently is undercover as an old toddler.

[00:00:44] Despite the presence of Washington and Crowe, this is not a prequel to Virtuosity.

[00:00:50] Or is it?

[00:00:51] With me as always is Dr. Anthony Ladan.

[00:00:55] Interesting that Denzel's going to be in the new Gladiator movie.

[00:00:59] Right.

[00:00:59] I think this is maybe part of the whole Virtuosity trilogy.

[00:01:03] Steve, we came upon this movie because of the threat of Cuba Gooding Jr.

[00:01:11] Right.

[00:01:13] This was your way of getting ahead of me selecting radio.

[00:01:16] Yes.

[00:01:17] That, to me, that was like the worst case scenario.

[00:01:21] That was sort of like, maybe we don't ever record another episode or talk again if you

[00:01:27] selected Cuba Gooding Jr.'s radio.

[00:01:30] So I thought we'd talk about Cuba Gooding first off because he was really what made this

[00:01:35] podcast happen for us.

[00:01:37] Yeah.

[00:01:38] Well, yeah, it was a defensive maneuver.

[00:01:41] It really was.

[00:01:42] It really was.

[00:01:43] So.

[00:01:43] And then when it did it, it opened you up for a cocktail.

[00:01:45] You know, you didn't jump on the opportunity to get a Tom Cruise because you were so concerned

[00:01:50] about radio.

[00:01:50] I mean, that's the power of radio.

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:54] So I am.

[00:01:55] I'm okay with this because I've never seen cocktail and I would rather see that movie

[00:02:02] for the first time knowing that I'll be entertained by you making fun of that movie afterwards.

[00:02:11] Then being forced to watch radio again and having you be entertained by me because of my loathsome

[00:02:21] approach to that particular film.

[00:02:23] So I think it's really important to recognize that you've watched radio.

[00:02:28] I've never seen it.

[00:02:28] What was the thought process behind like, oh, this looks like a tour de force performance

[00:02:33] by Cuba Gooding Jr.

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:36] Um, there was a moment in time when Cuba Gooding Jr. wasn't bad.

[00:02:42] Uh huh.

[00:02:43] And I do like sports movies.

[00:02:46] I don't think I really understood what that movie was going to be.

[00:02:51] Mm hmm.

[00:02:51] I did sit through the entire movie, but this has sort of been an unending source of entertainment

[00:02:57] for you because every now and again, I will bring it up as sort of like a bad performance

[00:03:04] par excellence.

[00:03:06] Right.

[00:03:06] This is like the epitome of what you should not do with your career.

[00:03:13] But I quite like American Gangster and I don't mind Cuba Gooding Jr. in this movie.

[00:03:20] Well, you just get a dollop, right?

[00:03:21] You're not getting like.

[00:03:22] It's the right amount and he's almost like the joke of the movie.

[00:03:29] So it's the same reason why I don't mind watching Superman Returns with Spacey as the

[00:03:34] villain.

[00:03:36] Okay.

[00:03:36] It's like, yeah, no, I get it.

[00:03:38] That guy's a villain.

[00:03:40] I'm on board.

[00:03:41] I'm fine with villains getting, you know, roles where they get to play villains.

[00:03:46] Okay.

[00:03:47] So as long as they're so, so Cosby in Leonard part six, because he's the hero.

[00:03:53] I would like to see Cosby reprise his role as the devil.

[00:03:56] Max Devlin.

[00:03:57] Right.

[00:03:57] So that's fine.

[00:03:58] So just to be clear, you'll watch Spacey in seven.

[00:04:02] Yeah.

[00:04:03] But maybe not in like K-Pax.

[00:04:06] Oh yeah, sure.

[00:04:07] Which K-Pax was no good anyway, but.

[00:04:10] So separating the art from the artist has a, has a different sort of approach with you.

[00:04:16] You, you, you will separate them in so much as they're, they're reflecting maybe who they

[00:04:23] really are.

[00:04:24] Yeah.

[00:04:24] They've leaned into a part and now they get typecast.

[00:04:28] That's.

[00:04:28] So in this case.

[00:04:29] To me, that's a sentence worse than being canceled.

[00:04:33] This is, this is, this is really good.

[00:04:35] So, so what you're saying is because you believe Cuba Gooding Jr. is a joke in real

[00:04:40] life, you're, you're on board with him playing sort of a, uh, laugh that character in American

[00:04:48] Gangster.

[00:04:50] Yeah.

[00:04:50] Yeah.

[00:04:51] And then this is all because of radio.

[00:04:54] I mean, you've, you've, you've really, radio really changed my life.

[00:04:58] Like Cuba Gooding Jr. has been so damned by radio that even Cuba Gooding Sr. can't get

[00:05:04] it.

[00:05:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] No, there are parts that you can't walk back.

[00:05:09] It's like people, there are parts that are so bad.

[00:05:11] Like did Dennis Hopper ever do anything that was decent after Waterworld?

[00:05:16] I think that was it.

[00:05:17] It was like, no, that's it for you.

[00:05:19] You're done now.

[00:05:21] Well, uh, well that's a, that's a great question.

[00:05:24] I'm going to take a little look scene at that because I think that I know that that has nothing

[00:05:28] to do with what we're talking about, but still at the same time, everything to do with

[00:05:31] what we're talking about.

[00:05:32] That was it.

[00:05:33] That was it.

[00:05:33] Waterworld 95.

[00:05:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:35] Well, so here's the thing is you say Waterworld damned him.

[00:05:39] I say Waterworld was his penance for playing King Koopa in Super Mario Brothers movie starring

[00:05:45] Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo.

[00:05:47] I would say a very underrated movie.

[00:05:50] What?

[00:05:51] Super Mario Brothers?

[00:05:52] Yeah.

[00:05:53] Yep.

[00:05:54] Huh.

[00:05:55] Well, that's, uh, it's not a sentence that's been said ever before this podcast.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:02] I'm looking and, um, after Waterworld, I mean, not a lot, right?

[00:06:08] Nah, nah, that's, uh, like there are some parts, there are some parts that are so bad that

[00:06:16] are, it's just like, no, you're done.

[00:06:19] That was it for you.

[00:06:20] Well, in case you were wondering, um, about like how, how his punishment continued.

[00:06:25] Um, he was in 2001 in a movie called Ticker with, uh, Steven Seagal.

[00:06:33] Okay.

[00:06:34] Well, there you go.

[00:06:35] And, uh, and, uh, Tom Sizemore and Ice-T.

[00:06:39] I will say this.

[00:06:40] I'm willing to watch it.

[00:06:41] Like I took that combination, what you just said, then just then just those, that combination

[00:06:47] of actors, I'm interested that for some reason.

[00:06:52] Absolutely.

[00:06:52] Wild turn of events in this last paragraph that we've just, uh, said here.

[00:06:56] I mean, one, you said Super Mario Brothers is underrated.

[00:06:59] Very vastly underrated.

[00:07:01] Again, to be clear, this is not the one where Chris Pratt is involved and it's animated.

[00:07:04] No.

[00:07:04] This is the one with Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo as Luigi.

[00:07:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:09] Perfect.

[00:07:10] You hear what I said there out loud?

[00:07:12] Perfection.

[00:07:13] John Leguizamo as Luigi.

[00:07:16] Okay.

[00:07:17] I'm, I'm fine with this.

[00:07:18] So, uh, no, if it's a Super Mario Brothers movie, I don't, yeah, you should absolutely

[00:07:25] be casting John Leguizamo as Luigi.

[00:07:28] Like that's the only option.

[00:07:29] He should change his name to John Leguizamo and then we'll all be fine.

[00:07:32] Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

[00:07:34] This is off the rails already, but I'm just gonna, because we are off the rails, I'm gonna

[00:07:39] Oh, what's funny is that this is, this is like one of our more serious movies that we've

[00:07:43] like reviewed.

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:44] And, uh, so far we've spent a good amount of time on radio.

[00:07:48] Uh, Cosby and Dennis Hopper.

[00:07:53] Don't forget Spacey.

[00:07:55] Eh, we try.

[00:07:59] All right.

[00:07:59] Now, uh, I'm gonna make a recommendation to you.

[00:08:03] I know you don't like books on tape because it makes you feel like, like, uh, someone's

[00:08:08] reading a story to you.

[00:08:11] Yeah.

[00:08:11] All right.

[00:08:12] I'm gonna suggest to you that there's-

[00:08:14] Which is funny because if you, if you, if you sat down and said, can I read you a story?

[00:08:18] Uh, you know, I take it, I don't think there's any way I'd sit through that.

[00:08:21] Okay.

[00:08:22] I don't wanna be read to.

[00:08:23] I think that there might be an exception to this and I'm gonna throw an idea at you.

[00:08:26] All right.

[00:08:27] So, former SNL writer, Simon Rich, um, wrote a book called Glory Days, which is short stories.

[00:08:35] And I know that you like short stories.

[00:08:36] I do.

[00:08:37] But they're all comedic.

[00:08:39] And the narrator is John Mulaney.

[00:08:43] And he does an amazing job, uh, reading these very humorous stories.

[00:08:50] One of the stories is, uh, told from the perspective of Super Mario.

[00:08:56] Mario.

[00:08:57] And, uh, Mario's going through a midlife crisis.

[00:09:00] So, it's Mulaney doing a thick, thick Italian accent.

[00:09:06] Comically bad Italian accent.

[00:09:10] Okay.

[00:09:10] So, I'm, you know, mimicking the voice of the video game character, really.

[00:09:16] And I, I, I found it quite entertaining.

[00:09:19] Quite entertaining.

[00:09:20] Okay.

[00:09:20] So, I don't do a lot of book recommendations on this pod, but in this case, I'm recommending

[00:09:25] the audiobook Glory Days, voiced by comedian John Mulaney.

[00:09:31] Because of a playfully racist take on Italian.

[00:09:35] I, you know what?

[00:09:36] I've got an interesting relationship with Italians.

[00:09:40] And that leads us right into this movie.

[00:09:43] See, perfect segue.

[00:09:43] We knew what we were doing.

[00:09:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:45] I think that there's something about this movie that got set aside and really kind of never

[00:09:54] entered the pantheon of great crime family dramas.

[00:10:01] Because it wasn't an Italian family.

[00:10:05] And I think that that's almost the point of the movie itself.

[00:10:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:10] It's like this guy was totally, totally under the radar because everyone underestimated

[00:10:15] him.

[00:10:16] And no one could conceive that the, the big crime families, the big Italian crime families

[00:10:24] in New York and New Jersey would be working for a black crime boss.

[00:10:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:31] So not only did that help crime flourish in New York City in the 70s and 80s, it also hurt

[00:10:41] this movie's reception, I think.

[00:10:44] Okay.

[00:10:44] So that, that is my impression.

[00:10:46] Okay.

[00:10:47] You're saying that, that Frank Lucas was able to fly under the radar the same way that maybe

[00:10:51] American gangster flew under the radar.

[00:10:53] Exactly right.

[00:10:53] And it's because of stereotypes.

[00:10:55] It's because no, the Italians have to be the crime lords and the, the people of color

[00:11:03] in New York City have to be the junkies or the, the, you know, the low level street

[00:11:08] dealers or whatever.

[00:11:10] Interesting.

[00:11:11] And I think, and is that maybe why it's referred to as American gangster perhaps?

[00:11:16] I almost feel like that part of it is, um, maybe too ham fisted in the movie.

[00:11:22] Like I love this movie and I think there are a few parts of it that are like, uh, just a

[00:11:27] little bit too much on the nose.

[00:11:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:30] For me.

[00:11:31] And that, that is, I guess that's one of the few things about this that I wasn't really

[00:11:36] thrilled with, but yeah, I mean, I guess that, that is the case.

[00:11:41] It's like, what is more American than this guy who decides he's going to find a deficiency

[00:11:47] in the market, exploit it, find enormous success in a very cutthroat way, like literally cutthroat

[00:11:56] way rise to power.

[00:11:59] It's a very much an underdog story in that way.

[00:12:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:03] And, uh, and this is, this sort of is a commentary on probably American capitalism.

[00:12:09] And then of course you've got the Italians on the side kind of giving voice to the business

[00:12:15] side of this enterprise.

[00:12:19] Well, and then you've got also like the manipulation of the U S military as well as the, just the

[00:12:25] law enforcement in general.

[00:12:26] I mean, there's like all of the systems, all of the, the truly American systems that are

[00:12:31] in place are manipulated and exploited, um, for this, you know, CD venture.

[00:12:37] Right.

[00:12:38] Yeah.

[00:12:38] Who are the drug dealers?

[00:12:40] Well, according to this movie, it's the U S military, it's the cops.

[00:12:44] And at one point in the movie, they say that if they shut down Lucas, a hundred thousand

[00:12:51] people are going to lose jobs in America.

[00:12:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:54] And of course you've got the, you know, the backdrop of Vietnam against this whole thing,

[00:12:59] which, you know, is sort of ripe for political commentary.

[00:13:03] Uh, I, so anyway, I really liked this movie.

[00:13:06] It, I like, I like crime movies from the seventies and I like crime movies about the seventies.

[00:13:11] And this is a great example of that in a way that I don't think, I don't really think it,

[00:13:18] it gets the props that deserves, but I have not asked you how you experienced this movie.

[00:13:23] Cause I think this was your first viewing.

[00:13:26] Yes, that is correct.

[00:13:28] Um, so, so before you tell me what set the stage, how did you approach it?

[00:13:32] How many dogs were in proximity?

[00:13:35] Did Heather watch it with you?

[00:13:36] How many gummies?

[00:13:37] I want to know all that.

[00:13:38] Heather did not watch this with me.

[00:13:41] It was one of these ones where it was, we've been real busy.

[00:13:43] So I've been kind of cobbling together space to, to watch this.

[00:13:48] Not that I don't necessarily think she wouldn't have enjoyed it.

[00:13:50] It's just that with so many things going on and with scheduling and everything else, it

[00:13:55] was like, it's also a long movie, right?

[00:13:57] It is a long movie.

[00:13:58] Um, so I, I watched it in, in, in three different, um, sessions.

[00:14:04] Oh, all right.

[00:14:05] That's all with, all with, yeah, all with dogs.

[00:14:08] Uh huh.

[00:14:08] Um, and, uh, I think I got, I think the first session was, I think it was close to an hour.

[00:14:19] I think it was an hour, hour.

[00:14:21] And then like the final 40.

[00:14:23] Mm hmm.

[00:14:24] Interesting.

[00:14:25] You and I have had a long history with cops and robbers movies like heat and whatnot.

[00:14:31] Right.

[00:14:32] Uh, that's what this movie is.

[00:14:34] It's, it's cops and robbers.

[00:14:36] Did, did you enjoy it?

[00:14:38] Uh, I enjoyed it quite a bit.

[00:14:40] Um, and I think it's interesting.

[00:14:42] I think a couple of things to talk about, and then I have another, um, uh, discussion topic.

[00:14:47] I think it'll be at least interesting to get your point of view on.

[00:14:51] Um, notoriously, you are not a Russell Crowe fan.

[00:14:56] Almost never.

[00:14:57] Never.

[00:14:58] I almost never enjoy Russell Crowe.

[00:15:00] You say that, but it seems like we've talked about Russell Crowe movies and you're like,

[00:15:04] yeah, I like that movie.

[00:15:04] Yeah.

[00:15:04] Like, it's like, I, I, I, I just don't think you dislike him as much as you think you do.

[00:15:09] I like this movie so much that even if I'm not thrilled with Russell Crowe in this movie,

[00:15:16] uh, let's put it this way.

[00:15:18] Russell Crowe doesn't ruin this movie for me.

[00:15:21] You don't think he's good in this movie?

[00:15:23] There are a couple of scenes where I'm just like, ah, why do you have to be Russell Crowe?

[00:15:26] But you never at one point said, Hey, could Denzel Washington be someone different for once?

[00:15:30] No, no.

[00:15:32] I, Denzel Washington, uh, is, is fantastic.

[00:15:37] He's perfect for this role.

[00:15:38] I think Denzel Washington is a great actor who has never not been Denzel Washington.

[00:15:44] It's an interesting point.

[00:15:46] I think that there's quite a bit of range encompassed within that personality.

[00:15:51] And I will point you to what I think is the greatest single acting performance in any movie.

[00:15:57] And that is Malcolm X.

[00:16:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:00] So I think he plays like four different characters, you know, representing four different periods of Malcolm X's life.

[00:16:07] I think he was robbed.

[00:16:09] Are you saying he was four?

[00:16:09] I think he should have got the Oscar for that.

[00:16:12] He played multiple characters like, like Norbert.

[00:16:15] No, I'm saying that, um, early Malcolm.

[00:16:18] Have you seen Malcolm X?

[00:16:19] Let me ask you this question.

[00:16:20] Oh, yeah.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:22] He, he, I have not seen Norbert though.

[00:16:24] Was he good at that?

[00:16:24] He plays early, um, Malcolm little.

[00:16:28] I know that you're trying to make a Norbert joke.

[00:16:31] Give me a second here.

[00:16:32] Okay, perfect.

[00:16:35] Uh, I just think that his early Malcolm little, you know, when he plays the, the early stages of Malcolm X, I just think that that's a fundamentally different character than the character we meet at the end of the film.

[00:16:50] And I, and he plays two, two or at least two characters in between.

[00:16:54] I think that movie in itself shows range.

[00:16:57] And I will say that watching him as a crime boss in this movie almost gives me a little bit of Malcolm X vibes.

[00:17:06] Cause I love that early movie so much.

[00:17:08] It might increase my enjoyment of American gangster.

[00:17:14] Hmm.

[00:17:15] I think, I think Malcolm X is the first movie I'd ever seen Denzel Washington in.

[00:17:20] Oh, so you were hyped up.

[00:17:22] You thought that this guy's pretty good.

[00:17:24] And then from then on, it was all like, remember the Titans over and over and over again.

[00:17:30] No, I had no, no, uh, expectation of Denzel Washington at all.

[00:17:35] I just knew that, that Malcolm X was kind of a, uh, a cinematic cultural touchstone.

[00:17:41] And I was, and I was like, Oh, give this a shot.

[00:17:44] And I remember being, uh, fascinated by it.

[00:17:48] I thought it was, it was a great film and it was great performance.

[00:17:51] And, um, and I'd seen Denzel, you know, later since.

[00:17:55] And here's the thing.

[00:17:56] I enjoyed Denzel Washington like most of the time.

[00:17:59] Sure.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:01] But in the way that you say it's hard for you to enjoy, um, Colin Farrell in a fat suit.

[00:18:09] Because you're, you're like, wow, that's Colin Farrell doing that.

[00:18:12] I feel the same way with Denzel.

[00:18:14] Most of the time I'm sitting there going, here comes Denzel doing his Denzel thing.

[00:18:17] And, and I'm fine with it, but it does feel sometimes like, uh, so here's what I liked about him in this movie though.

[00:18:24] I did, there were moments where I felt like he really played the subtle menacing figure, like, uh, almost pitch perfect.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:35] Um, I, I, I, I think he's great in us.

[00:18:38] I do think he's great.

[00:18:39] In fact, there may be an element of this where I go, maybe this is, this disproves maybe some of my, uh, Denzel.

[00:18:47] Interesting.

[00:18:48] Interesting.

[00:18:48] Um, so I just would really like you to, I'm going to advocate for Russell Crowe.

[00:18:53] Okay.

[00:18:54] All right.

[00:18:54] And let's, let me just wrap up the Denzel conversation real quick here.

[00:18:58] I do think that there are portions of this movie where it's like, if you took the guy from training day and put him in this movie, it's like, are those two performances all that different?

[00:19:12] And, but here's the thing.

[00:19:13] I love both these movies.

[00:19:15] Like I, I love him in training day and he's amazing in that movie and he's very Denzel Washington in that movie, but it's, it's such a different Denzel Washington here.

[00:19:26] Here, here's the difference.

[00:19:28] There are some people who are movie stars to such an extent that you want to see them just be that.

[00:19:35] You want to see them shine on screen.

[00:19:37] Denzel is one of these guys where I kind of feel like if I go to a Denzel movie, I kind of want to see him be Denzel again.

[00:19:44] That's fair.

[00:19:44] And here's the thing I think in Denzel's defense of my critique is that the, the Denzel Washington thing, the thing that makes him very Denzely.

[00:19:56] Uh, it's not going to go the route of the Pacino De Niro caricature type situation.

[00:20:04] Right.

[00:20:04] Because I don't, because I think he would, I think he relies a lot of times on subtlety.

[00:20:09] So when he training days it up, it, it, it feels like a bit of a treat.

[00:20:16] Um, but I do think that a lot of my critique for Denzel came from training.

[00:20:24] Interesting.

[00:20:25] You like training day.

[00:20:27] I thought.

[00:20:27] And I did.

[00:20:28] And that's the thing is, like I said, I made, made it clear.

[00:20:30] I'd like Denzel Washington and I enjoy, and I think kind of what you, maybe to your point is like, I want, you know, he's such a star.

[00:20:36] I want to see Denzel dude.

[00:20:38] I want to see Denzel.

[00:20:39] I want to see him, you know, and I, maybe I don't want to lose Denzel in all of this.

[00:20:44] Maybe I want to, you know, maybe I, I wanted a, a, a heaping helping, which that's totally fine.

[00:20:51] Go for it.

[00:20:51] I don't, like I said, I don't usually not enjoy it, but sometimes I do feel like, like it's, I know I'm watching Denzel.

[00:21:01] I never forget that.

[00:21:02] Yeah.

[00:21:02] I think that's right.

[00:21:03] I think that's right now.

[00:21:04] Again, may not necessarily be a problem, but it's just, it's, it's a, and I, maybe it's more of a fascination with, with how he can be so effective.

[00:21:16] Um, and, and maybe he's just naturally rangy.

[00:21:19] You know what I mean?

[00:21:19] It's maybe so.

[00:21:21] I mean, there is like, I'll just throw out a movie that I did not like Denzel in.

[00:21:26] And that's the hurricane.

[00:21:28] I don't know if you ever saw the hurricane.

[00:21:31] Uh, I, not maybe for, for whatever reason, he was Denzel in that movie.

[00:21:36] And so I should like it a little bit more and it just didn't work.

[00:21:42] So maybe it was a movie that didn't require Denzel to be Denzel.

[00:21:47] I think honestly, I think that that was the one he got nominated.

[00:21:50] I think he got nominated for that.

[00:21:51] And I was like, just didn't speak to me at all.

[00:21:53] But, um, all right.

[00:21:54] So let's talk about Russell Crowe.

[00:21:56] You probably have a more typical relationship with him.

[00:21:59] He, I mean, he's generally considered a pretty decent actor and most people think that, and I'm kind of the outlier here.

[00:22:09] So, uh, so make your case for Russell Crowe here.

[00:22:13] I think that Russell Crowe, uh, he can pull a character in and, and, and he can, he does.

[00:22:21] I mean, there's a lot of subtlety that he pulls off.

[00:22:24] There's a bit of likability that I think he actually possesses that I know you don't think he has.

[00:22:30] Um, and because I think he's not a likable person in real life, if he's likable on screen, I think that goes a long way.

[00:22:37] Sure.

[00:22:38] Um, and, uh, I just, I think he's, I wouldn't say that he's exceptional.

[00:22:42] You know, I think he's, he's, he's solid.

[00:22:46] He, I think he typically elevates what he's in.

[00:22:50] Um, you know, except for maybe the mummy with Tom Cruise, but, um, that was an elevated.

[00:22:57] I don't think I ever saw them.

[00:23:01] Was John Leguizamo.

[00:23:04] Was he the mummy?

[00:23:06] That would, that would be something.

[00:23:07] Yeah.

[00:23:08] I don't.

[00:23:09] Yeah.

[00:23:10] That's not a good one.

[00:23:11] Uh, even though, uh, Russell Crowe plays Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[00:23:14] Oh, all right.

[00:23:15] Uh, I, it could be that, um, I mean, there's a few movies that I like, you know what?

[00:23:20] Russell Crowe was pretty decent in.

[00:23:25] What was the, the buddy cop movie with Ryan Gosling?

[00:23:29] Oh yeah.

[00:23:30] Was it the nice, the nice guys for some reason that movie worked for me and I, I, I wasn't

[00:23:37] thinking like, Oh man, I wish it was an, uh, another actor.

[00:23:41] Uh, so there are from time to time movies that I'll see him in that I do not hate him.

[00:23:46] Do you like fatter Russell Crowe better?

[00:23:49] Yeah, probably.

[00:23:52] Yeah.

[00:23:52] Okay.

[00:23:53] Yeah.

[00:23:54] Just a preference thing.

[00:23:57] Uh, all right.

[00:23:58] Okay.

[00:23:58] Let's talk about this movie.

[00:24:00] What if, what if you found out that he's actually still thin?

[00:24:02] It's just that he's gone the fat suit from the penguin.

[00:24:05] I don't like it.

[00:24:06] All right.

[00:24:07] You know what?

[00:24:07] I would have been happier with Russell Crowe as the penguin for that very reason.

[00:24:12] All right.

[00:24:13] So, so, okay.

[00:24:13] So this is actually kind of an interesting segue, uh, to what I really want to discuss.

[00:24:18] I know you've got things to, but I, this is the space of this movie is basically the

[00:24:21] penguin.

[00:24:22] Is that what you're going to say?

[00:24:24] Well, no, we're talking about the authenticity, authenticity of fat suits versus, uh, the non,

[00:24:29] uh, you know, non balding actors.

[00:24:33] Um, so this movie is loosely based on a true story.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:39] And so first question, do you like movies that are based on true?

[00:24:43] I was going to ask you the same thing.

[00:24:45] Um, I love them.

[00:24:49] I love movies that are loosely based on true stories.

[00:24:52] Great.

[00:24:54] So do you feel that your, your enjoyment for this is because you're getting a little piece

[00:24:59] of, of history or, you know, something a little, a little peek into, into, into our world and

[00:25:05] culture and a specific time.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:08] I like that part of it too.

[00:25:09] I like, I like having a window into a bit of history or a character that I didn't know

[00:25:15] a lot about.

[00:25:16] I like the experience of having the final, the final text on the screen saying what happened

[00:25:22] to them next.

[00:25:23] I love that.

[00:25:25] Right.

[00:25:25] Right.

[00:25:25] Um, I know not a lot of people like that, but I do.

[00:25:28] I like the experience of looking like doing my own research afterwards to figure out like

[00:25:34] how much, you know, Hollywood versus history, uh, you know, what, how much of this was based

[00:25:42] on historical facts, how much was, uh, I usually like it when the creative license, uh, doesn't

[00:25:51] do damage to the sort of the broad brush strokes.

[00:25:57] Like, uh, it's still sort of is true to the, the story as a historian would tell it.

[00:26:03] It doesn't necessarily, but I don't, I don't mind.

[00:26:06] I don't mind if you have to create a composite character, uh, or you needed to change the location

[00:26:14] or, uh, you needed to change, you know, little, little bits to make it a movie rather than

[00:26:21] a documentary.

[00:26:21] I do not mind those.

[00:26:23] So I actually quite liked that experience.

[00:26:25] Great.

[00:26:26] This is exactly the conversation I want to have.

[00:26:28] Cause I, I, I agree with all of that.

[00:26:31] I feel the same way.

[00:26:32] I like, cause I like, Oh wow.

[00:26:34] Like I I'm enjoying something.

[00:26:35] It's, I realized that there's going to be some cinematic, um, liberties taken for, you

[00:26:42] know, for, you know, maybe condensing the story and making it, you know, uh, uh, you know,

[00:26:49] consumable for screen and all that good stuff.

[00:26:53] However, I do find myself going, Oh, and I think it may be makes me enjoy the movie less.

[00:27:01] If I read people saying, yeah, about 1% of that was accurate.

[00:27:05] Interesting. Cause I did, I did some research on this movie and I'll, I'll, a lot of it is

[00:27:11] accurate.

[00:27:12] Richie Roberts says, Richie Roberts says he's like, yeah, that really wasn't me doing all

[00:27:17] that.

[00:27:18] Uh, well, okay.

[00:27:19] That's, that's right.

[00:27:20] There was a series of, of detectives and I got credit for all this other work that was

[00:27:25] done.

[00:27:25] So Richie Roberts, who's a real cop, who was really on this case, who really became a lawyer,

[00:27:31] who really became friends with him afterwards.

[00:27:34] Like all those, all that is true.

[00:27:36] He's a composite character and that didn't ruin it for me.

[00:27:41] Here's a little bit that I thought was interesting to me.

[00:27:45] The thing that was really kind of a case breaker for these cops was that they were able to trace

[00:27:55] where the heroin's coming from by a chemical test.

[00:27:59] And most of the heroin was not coming from the golden triangle in New York.

[00:28:04] So there was actually sort of like a CSI element to this that they didn't bring into the movie.

[00:28:11] And I thought, all right.

[00:28:13] I mean, that would have been an interesting thing to bring in, but I thought it was much

[00:28:16] more effective to kind of draw out the character to sort of play up the chinchilla coat and

[00:28:26] the hat, which Richie Roberts says, well, of course we already were, you know, we were,

[00:28:32] he was already on our radar before that.

[00:28:34] It's just the fact that the hat didn't help him in this movie.

[00:28:39] They really kind of make it like, this is the turning point you were.

[00:28:42] He was really careful.

[00:28:43] He was really under the radar.

[00:28:45] No one was really looking for him one night with a chinchilla hat.

[00:28:51] And he gets taken down.

[00:28:53] I, you know what?

[00:28:54] It's like, okay.

[00:28:55] I kind of really enjoyed that part of the movie.

[00:28:58] It was a, I think it was a good directorial choice.

[00:29:01] To me that, that, that helped.

[00:29:04] But there are definitely some, there are some alleged discrepancies between just how prolific,

[00:29:10] uh, Frank Lucas really was.

[00:29:13] Um, and the way he's portrayed, like, I mean, at least the, from the prosecuting or the, the

[00:29:21] judge's perspective, they're like, yeah, I mean the movie has him as Denzel and, and that's

[00:29:26] great.

[00:29:27] He's all, but this guy was a mostly illiterate, vicious gangster.

[00:29:31] So to me that sort of like part of what makes this movie work, we just got done discussing

[00:29:37] is, is the subtlety of, of Denzel.

[00:29:40] And maybe there's this craftiness to it.

[00:29:41] And there's this element of like, he's charming.

[00:29:43] And to the point where it's like, I almost like getting, and I, and maybe this is where

[00:29:48] my issues come along.

[00:29:49] And I mean, obviously they, they did team up later and he helped, uh, reduce his sentence.

[00:29:54] However, there's a, there's a gap in, in the, the, uh, end of the sentence, um, summary

[00:30:01] at the end of the movie.

[00:30:02] Uh, but if it's Denzel, I'm like, yeah, dude, for sure.

[00:30:05] I'd probably eventually be like, I'll help this guy out.

[00:30:07] Cause it's freaking Denzel.

[00:30:08] Look how charming it is.

[00:30:10] But if he's different, you know, I mean, if it's a different portrayal, uh, you know, if

[00:30:15] it's a little bit more, uh, like this vicious type person, then maybe this movie doesn't work.

[00:30:21] Right.

[00:30:22] So it's interesting to me.

[00:30:23] I think you have to have Denzel.

[00:30:24] What's the first scene in the movie.

[00:30:27] Do you remember?

[00:30:29] Uh, no.

[00:30:31] The first scene in the movie is him in a dark room lighting the dude on fire.

[00:30:37] Oh, that's right.

[00:30:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:38] For sure.

[00:30:38] And then, and then shooting him multiple times.

[00:30:42] All right.

[00:30:43] So this is an interesting, it's an interesting film because what is Ridley Scott doing?

[00:30:49] He's saying right off, this guy's a villain.

[00:30:53] Don't fall in love with him.

[00:30:54] He's as evil as evil gets.

[00:30:57] Right.

[00:30:57] Right.

[00:30:59] But it's Denzel.

[00:31:00] Right.

[00:31:01] So it's like, exactly.

[00:31:02] It's like, I think that's the true story.

[00:31:05] That's the true nature of Denzel is that Denzel could probably light somebody on fire in front

[00:31:10] of me.

[00:31:10] And a little bit later, I'd be like, if you, if you just said my man one more time, I

[00:31:14] think I'd be down.

[00:31:17] Yeah.

[00:31:17] How many my mans does it take to, to level off?

[00:31:21] Honestly, like maybe one.

[00:31:22] The burning a dude.

[00:31:23] Maybe one, as long as there's sufficient eye contact.

[00:31:28] So I, I feel like, Hey, we're going to talk about this at length with another movie that

[00:31:35] we're going to cover, but it's like, look, I know Moneyball didn't happen quite like that.

[00:31:40] Sure.

[00:31:40] I know that there are problems with, you know, the way that they portray a lot of things

[00:31:45] in that movie.

[00:31:46] I really, I still really liked the movie.

[00:31:49] Well, here's the thing.

[00:31:49] I think American gangster, I'm going to watch it again.

[00:31:52] I really enjoyed it.

[00:31:53] Uh, I was actually surprised at how much I enjoyed it.

[00:31:56] Uh, but there was this like at the end cause I, but like part of that enjoyment as I'm watching

[00:32:01] it is like, man, this is what, like, this is huge.

[00:32:04] This is insane what this has done.

[00:32:06] And then you find out like, Oh, it really wasn't that many cops.

[00:32:09] Um, you know, there were less convictions.

[00:32:12] So it's like the big thing, you know what I mean?

[00:32:15] Like the big part where it's like the crescendo to which it goes to is like, it's not, not good.

[00:32:22] It's just not that.

[00:32:23] And so part of what makes it this big bombast is like, Oh, well it's, it didn't, but like, you get it.

[00:32:29] It, it, it was the spirit.

[00:32:31] Right.

[00:32:31] So it just takes my enjoyment a little.

[00:32:33] And then I go, well now there's nothing.

[00:32:36] I mean, I love fictional movies.

[00:32:38] I love fictional crime movies.

[00:32:39] Those are fine.

[00:32:40] Um, but as soon as you add that element, then I feel like I want, there's a, and it's kind of hard to measure, but there's like a percentage of authenticity.

[00:32:50] I think that sort of matters to my enjoyment.

[00:32:53] Cause then it's at the end.

[00:32:54] And like, I almost feel like I was duped.

[00:32:56] All right.

[00:32:57] Let me, let me just run this down.

[00:32:58] All right.

[00:32:59] Here are the big broad breaststrokes of the film.

[00:33:01] The premise of the film is that you've got a lower level crime syndicate in New York City.

[00:33:08] Uh, that decides it's going to figure out how to cut out the middleman by importing pure heroin from Vietnam in the coffins of dead soldiers.

[00:33:22] This allows someone who is sort of an underling of a beloved crime boss rise up the ranks and become a major distributor of heroin in New York City.

[00:33:37] He establishes almost a brand of heroin, which is called blue magic and has several Italian families working under him to distribute this, this stuff.

[00:33:51] Uh, and is paying off cops along the way.

[00:33:55] A lot of dirty cops along the way.

[00:33:57] All of those broad breaststrokes are true.

[00:34:00] This guy does come from South Carolina.

[00:34:01] He does bring his family to New York City.

[00:34:05] They're, they're called the country boys.

[00:34:07] Uh, they're known for being ruthless.

[00:34:09] All that stuff is true.

[00:34:11] That is basically the broad breaststrokes of the film.

[00:34:14] And I feel like those are pretty much intact throughout this film.

[00:34:19] That's all there.

[00:34:20] And then, but like when you have the triumphant moment where at the end where it's like, look, these two are going to work together to just completely decimate, uh, the drug enforcement agencies and the cops.

[00:34:31] And it's like, and then they do to, to a degree, not to the degree that the movie suggests.

[00:34:39] And three quarters of the, like, don't put that in there.

[00:34:42] You know what I mean?

[00:34:43] It's like, I guess for me, I'm like, whoa, that's crazy that it was this big of a, um, a sting, right.

[00:34:50] Of a sting and of a revelation.

[00:34:52] Like that's huge.

[00:34:53] Like, cause that's kind of, I mean, all that other stuff that we're watching, all of this fascinating crime drama and intrigue and, and, and world building that, that we get that maybe all reasonable, uh, accurate brushstrokes has to lead to something.

[00:35:09] Right.

[00:35:09] What is the story?

[00:35:10] Like where, like the story doesn't end with him getting arrested.

[00:35:13] And then we see, you know, uh, where are they now text?

[00:35:17] It goes to court and it goes to court.

[00:35:19] And the whole point of this is to go, look, we've built Richie Roberts up as this, as this flawed yet honest cop who is when you find out kind of the movie is moving you towards this kind of almost a surprise where you're like, oh, this whole thing is really about trying to.

[00:35:36] You know, shine light on the corrupt criminal justice system.

[00:35:40] And it's also trying to shed away the corrupt cops.

[00:35:43] Like, wow, this is all of this.

[00:35:45] Like, like now these two adversaries are working together for this moment.

[00:35:49] And then this was the result.

[00:35:51] And I'm like, whoa, that's massive.

[00:35:53] And then you look at it and you're like, not, not that.

[00:35:55] It's like, well, then why do that?

[00:35:56] You know, like, don't say three quarters.

[00:35:58] Just, just, so that's where I think that my, I was just kind of like, oh, well, that's kind of a boring.

[00:36:01] So here's the other thing about this is that, and I think this is just sort of like good advice for anyone who's interested in studying history is that the testimony also has to be critiqued.

[00:36:13] Right.

[00:36:13] So Frank Lucas gave an interview a few years back where he said, I never ratted on anyone but the police.

[00:36:21] I only took down the police.

[00:36:23] Well, I take that with a grain of salt.

[00:36:25] I'm like, okay, well, the movie's telling a different story.

[00:36:29] And so who do I believe?

[00:36:30] Do I believe Ridley Scott, who's telling fiction, or do I believe Frank Lucas, who's trying to convey something that's factually true, but sounds a little bit suspicious?

[00:36:41] Like, yeah, I mean, who, who, who has, of course, he doesn't want to be known as a snitch.

[00:36:46] Yeah.

[00:36:46] But he's not going to lose street cred if he took down dirty cops.

[00:36:50] Right.

[00:36:50] Right.

[00:36:51] So for me, you know, and then of course, you know, I hear like Richie Roberts say afterwards, you know, it was a comp, I was a composite character.

[00:36:59] I got a lot of credit when I shouldn't have got credit.

[00:37:03] Um, that's interesting.

[00:37:04] I mean, to me, that's like, okay, I don't know if, I don't know how I should take that.

[00:37:10] Um, trust that either.

[00:37:11] Cause he might be such a good cop.

[00:37:13] No, no.

[00:37:14] I'm saying like, um, in order to kind of make good with some of the other cops who felt like they were written out of the story, maybe this is kind of what he has to say.

[00:37:24] Um, and then there are little bits and pieces that didn't make it in the movie.

[00:37:29] Like for instance, it's factually true that Richie Roberts paid the tuition for Frank Lucas's son to go to a private school after he got out of prison.

[00:37:41] And they could have put that in the movie, but that would have made it a little bit too syrupy.

[00:37:45] Right.

[00:37:46] The reality is too syrupy in that case.

[00:37:48] The reality in this case is too syrupy and it's, it doesn't quite help the film at the end.

[00:37:53] Like I didn't want them to become buddies at the end.

[00:37:56] Right.

[00:37:56] But they also do taken down at the end.

[00:37:59] Right.

[00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:00] It is interesting though, that they do include the part where he becomes, you know, a defense attorney and then he gets his sentence from 70 years to 15, but that's not exactly how it went down either.

[00:38:10] The thing that's crazy is that he got it from 70 to five.

[00:38:15] It was a five year sentence.

[00:38:17] So he gets in the witness protection program.

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:20] And then a few years later, he gets busted for, for dealing drugs and goes back to jail and then gets out in 91.

[00:38:29] Well, let's not forget the fact that Denzel ends up buying him a Rolls Royce.

[00:38:33] Did you see that part?

[00:38:35] Yeah, that's right.

[00:38:36] So Denzel gives them a bunch of money to help him out.

[00:38:39] And he, you know, it's supposed to be for a house and he decides he's going to buy a Rolls Royce with it.

[00:38:45] Like that's, to me, that's sort of like the, I have fun with the story after the movie's done.

[00:38:50] And then at that point I have to decide, am I going to enjoy the movie as a movie?

[00:38:55] Right.

[00:38:56] Because, because, you know, it's, it's not Ridley Scott's responsibility to create a documentary.

[00:39:03] If he was going to do a documentary, he would have done something else.

[00:39:06] What I need to see with his movie is sort of the broad breaststrokes of a story that's worth telling and then execute it.

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:16] And, and so I, I don't know.

[00:39:17] I, to me, I feel like I have a different kind of enjoyment doing the research afterwards than I'd had watching the movie during, you know, as, as it was playing.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:28] And I think for me, it's like, I don't realize just how much I'm maybe my enjoyment in the moment is, is coupled with feeling like I'm learning something.

[00:39:39] Interesting.

[00:39:40] I'm like, Oh, this is, this is a part that's very exciting and intriguing to me.

[00:39:43] And then to find out, Oh, like I'm, I'm fine with Richie Roberts being somewhat of a composite.

[00:39:49] And like the fact that he's like, I didn't even have kids in real life.

[00:39:51] And yet there's this whole subplot of, you know, me being a terrible father.

[00:39:56] If like, for instance, for me, if like, for me, I kind of feel like, um, if it was sort of like, okay, Frank Lucas actually never went to Vietnam.

[00:40:08] He sent someone else to Vietnam.

[00:40:10] So that whole part of the story is kind of fictional and it wasn't really his, even his idea.

[00:40:16] It was his cousin's idea.

[00:40:18] I mean, to me, that was like, I don't know if this, I don't know if that's maybe a bridge too far, but the truth is he learned a lot from crime syndicates in New York.

[00:40:27] He found a deficiency.

[00:40:29] He exploited it.

[00:40:30] He went to Vietnam.

[00:40:31] He pretended to be a soldier.

[00:40:33] He had the idea to put the stuff in the, the coffins, send it back.

[00:40:38] He got the military to help him.

[00:40:41] He paid off the cops.

[00:40:42] Like all that, you know, that's basically, that's the movie.

[00:40:45] The movie is, I would say that this movie is basically true.

[00:40:50] And then of course there's little details.

[00:40:52] Like did the Josh Berlin character actually commit suicide?

[00:40:55] Well, no.

[00:40:57] Uh, but that's not the kind of thing that's going to decrease my enjoyment of the film.

[00:41:01] Right.

[00:41:01] No.

[00:41:02] And I mean, and that's the thing is like, like, so his, his suicide is like kind of they, they, they, you know, if the movie was really about Trupo, you know, it'd be different.

[00:41:11] Um, but Trupo is representative.

[00:41:15] Right.

[00:41:15] And so, and so his, uh, and it's a great scene.

[00:41:19] It's a great scene where, uh, you know, the vacuuming is happening, you know, the cleaning up, so to speak is happening in the foreground.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:26] Yeah.

[00:41:27] He's kind of this, uh, unnoticed figure.

[00:41:31] He was, he was a big deal, but now he's not, you know, and I, there's a, there's a lot with that scene that was actually really well.

[00:41:35] Again, I think it's a great movie.

[00:41:37] I think it's well-directed.

[00:41:38] The acting is superb.

[00:41:39] Um, I was, uh, uh, thoroughly engaged and entertained throughout.

[00:41:45] Um, but I realized, you know, kind of just having finished it, like, especially as we get to the end courtroom stuff.

[00:41:53] Now I'm like, well, I want to know what happened.

[00:41:56] Let me say one thing to your point and against my point.

[00:42:00] Fundamentally, this film is about a misfit cop going head to head against a misfit gangster.

[00:42:06] Like that.

[00:42:07] That's it.

[00:42:07] They're both misfits in order to create the misfit cop.

[00:42:11] You had to invent him in this case.

[00:42:15] Right.

[00:42:15] Right.

[00:42:16] They had to kind of create a Serpico kind of character.

[00:42:19] Now it is factually true that he found almost a million dollars on the trunk of a car and gave it back.

[00:42:27] Right.

[00:42:28] Yeah.

[00:42:28] That almost is this guy's origin story.

[00:42:31] And you kind of have to build around that.

[00:42:34] So you got the seat, a seat of something that's a remarkable fact.

[00:42:38] And then, you know, Ridley Scott comes along or whoever's, I don't know who wrote the film, but whoever's writing the story comes along, takes that fact.

[00:42:47] And then like, all right, let's play that out to see what, what, what could make a good film out of that.

[00:42:53] Uh, so a little bit duped, feel a little bit duped, but it helps me to know that he actually is the kind of cop that gave back a million dollars.

[00:43:03] You know?

[00:43:04] That, that, that is, that is an important, uh, element because that, because that's a, it's a, it's a common refrain throughout the whole thing.

[00:43:11] It's, it's, um, in some cases it's kind of used, it's used against him from fellow cops, but it's also kind of used against him in the sense of like, you're not really as, you know, pure of heart as you, you want to, you want to suggest that you are.

[00:43:28] And, and I think that that creates a, um, kind of an interesting, uh, twist on the character because for all we know, he was just really, really good cop.

[00:43:37] It was just sort of a nerd.

[00:43:38] That's right.

[00:43:39] That's kind of it.

[00:43:40] And, and to your point, it's like, it helps if these guys are going head to head, if they're both kind of charismatic and smart because you want to see them play off each other.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:52] You don't want to see people be outsmarted just because they're not smart enough.

[00:43:56] Right.

[00:43:58] So it, you know, so maybe you make Frank Lucas a little bit smarter than he was.

[00:44:02] Maybe you make the, this fictional cop that you're creating around Richie Roberts a little bit more important than he was.

[00:44:10] Uh, these are all tricks that filmmakers use against us.

[00:44:15] No, no, that's right.

[00:44:16] Um, I wanted to take this in a different direction.

[00:44:20] If this movie wasn't true, wouldn't it feel derivative?

[00:44:26] Yes.

[00:44:27] Yes.

[00:44:27] That's, and I think that's another.

[00:44:28] And so I think that might go to what I was going on before is that if there's this idea that like, according to, you know, some people that were involved by saying, it's like 1% true versus, you know, 99%, you know, then, then, um, then I go, well, okay.

[00:44:47] I need to know more about this because now it's, now it really is just a movie.

[00:44:52] Uh-huh.

[00:44:53] And is it, is it as interesting?

[00:44:54] And that was, that was, I think we're, you know, maybe the long way that we got back.

[00:44:58] And I think this question that you ask is, is, is really interesting because it is like, well, this movie needs to be true.

[00:45:06] This movie has tons of tropes for, you know, of the genre.

[00:45:12] I mean, even, even down to like, I'm like, come on, blue magic.

[00:45:15] Come on.

[00:45:15] I've seen breaking back.

[00:45:16] Give me a break.

[00:45:18] But it's sort of like one of these things is like, like, geez, you got to bring in the Vietnam war just because every movie from this area era has to have some kind of commentary on the Vietnam war.

[00:45:29] Right.

[00:45:29] Oh, this guy came up from nothing and people underestimate him.

[00:45:33] Give me a break.

[00:45:33] Like, well, we have, we've got a cop who gives back a bunch of money.

[00:45:38] Come on.

[00:45:38] This is all kind of like character building stuff.

[00:45:41] And yet all those things that ended up being factual.

[00:45:44] Right.

[00:45:45] Then you, you start thinking like, oh, did everyone rip off Frank Lucas?

[00:45:49] Like, right, right, right, right.

[00:45:50] Like the God, the Godfather is totally fiction.

[00:45:53] It's totally fiction.

[00:45:54] Like, you know, and yet it's like, it came out of this era, you know, the sort of 1970s era of crime.

[00:46:04] Yeah.

[00:46:05] And it's like, yeah, because I think there's an element of watching this movie where you're feeling like, wait a minute.

[00:46:09] Is this, this feels even more important than like, like, why am I just now getting into this?

[00:46:14] You know?

[00:46:14] Right.

[00:46:14] Is this patient zero?

[00:46:15] Is Frank Lucas, Frank, patient zero for all of the Serpico, all of the, you know, all of these other crime dramas that we've come to love over the years?

[00:46:27] Um, it maybe it's like, oh yeah, but we needed to make them cliche.

[00:46:31] We need to make them look more Italian because that's the story that works in Hollywood.

[00:46:39] We can't make, we can't make the mastermind a black gangster.

[00:46:42] That that's not the kind of stories Hollywood tells.

[00:46:45] And maybe that's why we don't get the Frank Lucas character after, you know, until, until, you know, 2007 or whatever.

[00:46:54] Anyway, I thought I was thinking like when I was watching, it's like, man, this is really tropey.

[00:46:59] A lot of tropes.

[00:47:00] And then, you know, I'm wondering like.

[00:47:02] Convenient tropes.

[00:47:03] Yeah.

[00:47:04] Convenient tropes.

[00:47:05] I'm thinking, oh, maybe this, maybe this guy, maybe this is like the real life inventor of a lot of these tropes.

[00:47:11] Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:13] So that's, I think when I was going, that's where that initial doing a little research, like, well, and I didn't get like deep, deep dive, but I got enough to where I was like, oh, okay, that's real.

[00:47:21] Then it's like, wow, but if he's not that, and it's not really this, and that really is just the trope that's borrowed.

[00:47:26] And, and, and so it's like, then you feel, then I'm like, well, am I just enjoying this because these tropes are just tried and true?

[00:47:34] And then I'm a sucker for them.

[00:47:36] Yeah.

[00:47:37] Yeah.

[00:47:38] Which may be fine.

[00:47:39] Okay.

[00:47:40] I'm going to ask you one of our questions.

[00:47:43] Is there a trope, a cliche or device in this movie that you enjoyed?

[00:47:49] That's the thing.

[00:47:49] There's just like so much gangster stuff that I just like.

[00:47:53] Like I, I like, uh, Idris Elba's character.

[00:47:56] I forget his name in the movie.

[00:47:58] Um, Tango.

[00:48:00] Yeah.

[00:48:00] When he, when he takes, when he takes him out and there's just that, like that moment where, you know, he pulls the money out and puts the 20% in the, the takeover turn.

[00:48:11] Like, like this is the come up.

[00:48:13] There's a particular moment.

[00:48:15] It's like the fact that he can do that on the street and go sit down and continue eating his breakfast.

[00:48:21] And that's, that's the moment in the movie when I'm, and when I, that's when I was like, all right, so I can, I can dig Denzel doing this.

[00:48:29] So I like, um, I got a, I got a number of these things that I really like.

[00:48:34] I really enjoyed the conversation between him and his younger brother about style.

[00:48:42] Oh yeah.

[00:48:43] Like you, you're dressing like a flashy gangster, like Cuba Gooding Jr.'s character.

[00:48:51] And I feel like, oh, this is the same scene from, uh, uh, Goodfellas.

[00:48:56] You know, this is the scene where you're like, I told you not to flash your money and you walk in, you're, you're driving up in a Cadillac.

[00:49:04] Get rid of the Cadillac.

[00:49:05] That's the same scene.

[00:49:06] It just so happens that that's actually part of the problem.

[00:49:11] You know, there's an actual photo of Frank Lucas wearing the chinchilla coat.

[00:49:14] You know, it's an actual historical fact that he wore the coat at the Ollie fight and they got a photo of it.

[00:49:22] You can look it up.

[00:49:23] Um, and so they decided to make a movie theme out of it.

[00:49:28] So I, I, I quite liked that trope.

[00:49:30] I also like the fact that, uh, Chiwetel Ejiofor, I never know how to say that name.

[00:49:38] Did you note that when Frank goes back to Vietnam, he's got the suit back on.

[00:49:46] Oh, is that right?

[00:49:46] So I love this.

[00:49:47] So they have that big scene where it's like, what are you doing wearing this flashy suit?

[00:49:51] Get rid of the suit.

[00:49:52] And then as soon as he's back in Vietnam, you see him on the phone with, with his brother and his brother's got the suit back on.

[00:50:00] As soon as he leaves town, I'm going to put this suit back on.

[00:50:04] I thought that was wonderful.

[00:50:06] Uh, another trope that I really, really enjoy.

[00:50:08] What's kind of nice about that too is it shows that there's only so much control, right?

[00:50:12] That you have.

[00:50:13] That's true.

[00:50:14] That's true.

[00:50:15] Yeah.

[00:50:16] Uh, the other trope that I really always enjoy is when the crime boss has a folksy, but wise mother who, who slaps him at one point because he's gone too far.

[00:50:27] That, that always works.

[00:50:29] Love to see, love to see a showdown between a corrupt cop.

[00:50:36] And a good apple cop.

[00:50:39] Uh, always works.

[00:50:40] Always works.

[00:50:42] Um, all right.

[00:50:43] Is, is there a, something about this movie that you would have changed to improve it?

[00:50:48] I'm trying to think.

[00:50:49] I mean, there were some moments.

[00:50:50] It's because here's the funny thing, right?

[00:50:52] Is that I actually felt until I did more research later and it helps.

[00:50:58] And that's why I kind of want to watch it again.

[00:50:59] That the chinchilla suit thing was like, really?

[00:51:04] That's the thing.

[00:51:05] You know what I mean?

[00:51:06] Oh, I love that though.

[00:51:07] I, to me, it was like.

[00:51:09] I, I, I enjoyed it and I enjoyed what they did, but that to me felt like the most made up part in the movie.

[00:51:14] Like to, to move the narrative forward and then to find out that that was real kind of blew me away.

[00:51:21] Yes, that's right.

[00:51:22] And because that really falls into these old misogynistic types of like, here's the woman who's going to take down the man.

[00:51:30] Right.

[00:51:30] And you're like, Oh, we're going to do this.

[00:51:32] We're going to do this again.

[00:51:33] He's going to fall in love.

[00:51:35] He's going to have a moment of weakness.

[00:51:36] He knows he shouldn't put on the coat and hat, but he just proposed to her.

[00:51:40] And so she bought him a gift and he's going to, he can't say no tonight.

[00:51:45] Just one night.

[00:51:46] Give him one night with a chinchilla coat.

[00:51:49] Just, just so he, that's what takes him down.

[00:51:52] He gets his, he gets his fashion hall pass.

[00:51:59] And then that, you know, so it was actually helpful to me.

[00:52:02] Like, Oh no, that, that, this, this happens.

[00:52:04] This happens in real life sometimes.

[00:52:06] Right.

[00:52:06] So that's, and I think, and so that's a, it's a funny thing is the thing I would have changed in retrospect.

[00:52:10] I'm like, nah, you can't change that.

[00:52:12] That's the thing.

[00:52:13] That's what happened.

[00:52:14] Yeah.

[00:52:14] Yeah.

[00:52:15] So I think what they did, I mean, of course, you know, you could have brought in the, a chemist to say, this is, this stuff's coming from Vietnam.

[00:52:24] Yeah.

[00:52:25] Or this, this stuff is coming from Bangkok, Bangkok or whatever.

[00:52:28] You could have done that and downplay the importance of the chinchilla coat, but I don't know.

[00:52:36] I like it.

[00:52:37] I kind of like it the way it is.

[00:52:39] For me, I think the one thing that I would change initially, Benicio Del Toro was attached to the movie.

[00:52:47] Right, right, right.

[00:52:48] And they gave him $5 million to go away.

[00:52:54] And I just think, I mean, maybe that's a Ridley Scott thing.

[00:53:00] Like maybe his little collab with Russell Crowe kind of wins the day.

[00:53:06] Um.

[00:53:07] Well, was Del Toro attached to it when, with, when Denzel still was?

[00:53:12] Or after Denzel had, had left the project?

[00:53:16] Yeah, I think.

[00:53:16] Because I know that Denzel wanted, like, they liked the idea of working with Russell Crowe again.

[00:53:21] Interesting.

[00:53:22] Okay.

[00:53:22] So I don't know.

[00:53:24] I do think that this movie doesn't work without Denzel.

[00:53:28] Well, but.

[00:53:29] Will Smith was attached at one point.

[00:53:31] Oh.

[00:53:31] When Denzel was off.

[00:53:33] That's, that's no good.

[00:53:35] That's no good.

[00:53:36] I could see maybe like a Lawrence Fish, Fishburne or something like that work.

[00:53:41] Yeah.

[00:53:41] But I, I do think I would have appreciated Del Toro's take on this more than Russell Crowe's take on this.

[00:53:49] So that is my one change.

[00:53:52] Which, you know, that's on brand for me.

[00:53:55] I'll, I'll admit that.

[00:53:56] I'll admit that.

[00:53:59] Steve, um.

[00:54:00] Was this better, worse, or on par with a Ron Howard movie?

[00:54:05] Oh, uh.

[00:54:07] It's, it's a Howard plus five.

[00:54:10] Um.

[00:54:12] I think, I think Scott does a lot of really, really good, good things aesthetically and thematically.

[00:54:19] Um.

[00:54:20] I wonder, I wonder if, with because of.

[00:54:24] And like, it's funny because like some of the, like the harsher critiques were just like, oh, it's, it's just derivative of all these other things.

[00:54:29] And it's like, but to your point, it's like, or are all those other things derivative of the story?

[00:54:34] Right.

[00:54:34] Exactly.

[00:54:35] It's a, um.

[00:54:36] I think it's an important distinction because that easily, like you said, if you just take out that other quality, it's like, yeah, okay.

[00:54:42] You just watched a bunch of these movies and then you, you just sort of, uh, change some, some of the, uh, racial structure.

[00:54:49] Um.

[00:54:50] And that's not the case.

[00:54:52] Um.

[00:54:52] So again, these are worlds that I'm only having access through, through the cinema.

[00:54:57] Um.

[00:54:57] Um.

[00:54:58] But they felt authentic.

[00:54:59] I, I think one of the things I really liked about Frank Lucas's world that he created.

[00:55:06] And then you see this a lot of times with, with more of Italian mob stories.

[00:55:11] Um.

[00:55:12] You know, like the, the attachment to family.

[00:55:14] But this, I don't know, there was something about this that, um.

[00:55:17] Um.

[00:55:18] Really.

[00:55:19] To me captured, not just.

[00:55:22] Sort of the, the cultural aspect of, you know, from the family perspective, but also to the cultural aspect of the time.

[00:55:29] And the influence of, of fashion and, and pop culture.

[00:55:34] And, um.

[00:55:36] Just the changing environment in which, you know, New York was going through at the time.

[00:55:40] And I feel like this, the way that the family dynamic was matching with that.

[00:55:45] Like the, the idea that like, uh, the nephew wanted to go, you know, supposedly good enough to, to get a shot with the Yankees.

[00:55:52] Yeah.

[00:55:53] And.

[00:55:54] He had a tryout that he wanted to blow off because.

[00:55:56] Right.

[00:55:57] And it, and, and you're thinking to yourself like, well, who would ever do that?

[00:55:59] And he's like, well, I want to be like, he was like, yeah, but you can make so much money.

[00:56:02] Well, not then.

[00:56:03] Not then.

[00:56:04] You know, like.

[00:56:05] Not then.

[00:56:05] Right.

[00:56:06] So like.

[00:56:06] Lucas was pulling in like a million dollars a day at one point.

[00:56:10] Yeah.

[00:56:11] So.

[00:56:11] I think that's pretty, it's, it's pretty wild.

[00:56:14] And I, I really, I think it, like, again, I think it helps shape.

[00:56:18] He just really, I think Scott did a really good job of shaping the era.

[00:56:22] Um, in, in some ways that maybe I haven't seen in, um, in some of the other gangster movies.

[00:56:29] Mm.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:31] I, I was going to say Howard plus four and, and I've, I've watched this movie, I don't know,

[00:56:36] four or five times.

[00:56:38] And right after I finished watching it last night, I thought, you know what?

[00:56:40] I'm going to rewind this and watch the last 20 minutes again, because I don't have to take

[00:56:44] notes.

[00:56:44] I just want to enjoy the last 20 minutes again.

[00:56:46] And that final scene with Russell Crowe and Denzel in the room, they're sitting across

[00:56:53] the table from each other, kind of sizing each other up.

[00:56:58] Did you really find a million dollars in the trunk of a car and then turn it in?

[00:57:02] Did you do that?

[00:57:03] You did that for real, huh?

[00:57:04] My man.

[00:57:06] Good for you.

[00:57:08] You know Johnny Law got it though, right?

[00:57:10] Maybe.

[00:57:11] Well, ain't no maybe about it, Mr. Richard.

[00:57:12] You know he got it.

[00:57:13] You turned that money in, he took it, and you ain't getting nothing for it, did you?

[00:57:17] Why you do that?

[00:57:19] It was the right thing to do.

[00:57:20] Well, that's true.

[00:57:22] That's a good answer.

[00:57:23] It was the right thing to do.

[00:57:24] The question I have, the question I've been asking myself is, would you do it again?

[00:57:29] I mean, that's a lot of money.

[00:57:30] That's a long time ago.

[00:57:32] Many car payments ago.

[00:57:34] Many child support payments ago.

[00:57:37] So, I said to myself, the only way to find out is to find out.

[00:57:42] Give me an address.

[00:57:44] Make sure the car's there.

[00:57:45] Make sure that money's in that trunk.

[00:57:47] No thanks.

[00:57:49] Is this someone that I can actually apply a little bit of force on?

[00:57:53] Or is this someone that, have I met my match?

[00:57:57] And then for them to finally kind of decide to partner up.

[00:58:02] It was just a great climax to a film.

[00:58:06] That you already thought you had the climax, right?

[00:58:08] He was already.

[00:58:09] Right.

[00:58:09] Totally.

[00:58:10] He walked out of the church.

[00:58:12] They arrested him.

[00:58:13] That should be sort of everything else should be sort of tying up bows or whatever.

[00:58:18] But to get to that final moment where it's like, you want to go after the cops.

[00:58:24] That's interesting to me.

[00:58:26] So, and of course, it didn't happen like that in real life.

[00:58:30] But it was the part of the movie that I love most.

[00:58:33] Yeah.

[00:58:34] So anyway, I would say Howard plus four.

[00:58:38] And then is there a half the battle, one to grow on moment in this film?

[00:58:46] Dress down.

[00:58:49] Right.

[00:58:50] Yeah.

[00:58:51] At one point, what did he say?

[00:58:52] The loudest person in the room is the weakest person in the room.

[00:58:55] Yeah.

[00:58:56] I thought that was a great line.

[00:58:59] I also think, I mean, it's important to also know that you don't rub wine into alpaca.

[00:59:10] You got to blot that shit.

[00:59:12] Yeah.

[00:59:12] That's a huge moment.

[00:59:15] That's alpaca.

[00:59:17] I like a movie that teaches you something.

[00:59:22] All right.

[00:59:23] Now I'm going to conclude like this because it's something that's been on my mind a lot.

[00:59:31] I know that you don't love Chinese food.

[00:59:34] It's not your favorite.

[00:59:36] But if we were on a steak out together, would you at least have Chinese food for my sake?

[00:59:44] Yeah.

[00:59:47] Is Chinese food maybe one of the better steak out meals?

[00:59:50] I think it's got to be the best.

[00:59:52] For me, unless it's a meatball sub that Gary Busey recommends, I feel like Chinese food has got to be the food of choice.

[01:00:04] So that's my question to you.

[01:00:05] I know it's not your favorite, but if we were going to go on a steak out together, it's just you and me in a car.

[01:00:13] Would you eat Chinese food with me?

[01:00:15] I'll get him to order a Kung Pao chicken.

[01:00:18] Yes.

[01:00:19] You've made my day.