#64 - Young Guns / YG2

[00:00:00] Well, no, you're trying.

[00:00:47] With me, as always, is Dr. Anthony Ladon.

[00:00:52] Steve, as you know, we are preparing to talk about Young Guns 2.

[00:00:59] Right.

[00:00:59] And kind of a worst case scenario for us, I would say.

[00:01:06] And, I mean, I'll take a certain responsibility for this because...

[00:01:13] It's your fault.

[00:01:15] It certainly is not my fault.

[00:01:18] I will take some responsibility for this.

[00:01:22] But let me just say this right now.

[00:01:25] It's your gang.

[00:01:25] This is not my gang.

[00:01:29] Not down.

[00:01:30] It's good to see you, Doc.

[00:01:33] I knew you'd come back.

[00:01:34] We made a pact, remember?

[00:01:36] You and me and Chavez.

[00:01:38] Pals.

[00:01:39] Forever.

[00:01:40] Billy the Chain, come on.

[00:01:41] Look, I don't care if you guys swap spittle and piss in each other's boots.

[00:01:44] I don't take to Tenderfoots and my gang.

[00:01:47] And I definitely don't take to no Mexicans.

[00:01:49] It ain't your gang, Dave.

[00:01:51] Mexican Indian, you son of a bitch.

[00:01:54] And, uh...

[00:01:54] Is that even a gang?

[00:01:55] I mean, there's like...

[00:01:57] At one point, there's three of them, right?

[00:01:59] I mean, there's like three.

[00:02:01] Yeah, but they're pals.

[00:02:03] Two of...

[00:02:03] Oh, jeez.

[00:02:04] Two of the three want to be the leader of, I guess, the third guy.

[00:02:10] Uh-huh.

[00:02:12] And the third guy is Alan Ruck.

[00:02:17] The third one is Cameron from Ferris Bueller's Day Off, who absolutely is not going to be the

[00:02:22] leader in anyone's movie.

[00:02:24] No, and I love the idea that it's like he didn't even really want to go, you know?

[00:02:28] He just was talked into it.

[00:02:29] I was like, I'm gonna...

[00:02:30] He's gonna go.

[00:02:31] He's gonna want to go fight cattle rustlers.

[00:02:34] I'll go.

[00:02:34] I'll go.

[00:02:35] Who do you love?

[00:02:35] You love a horse.

[00:02:37] Uh, all right.

[00:02:38] So, a lot to talk about.

[00:02:40] So, you and I did a little draft, and one of the rules of the draft was that we could

[00:02:47] pick any movie of any actor who's in A Few Good Men, and you chose Young Guns pretty

[00:02:54] early on in the draft.

[00:02:55] Maybe...

[00:02:56] That's my key for him.

[00:02:57] Yeah, as your key for pick.

[00:02:59] And I immediately asked, whoa, whoa, whoa, does that mean that Tom Cruise is off the table?

[00:03:05] He said, no, no, no, no.

[00:03:06] If he's not credited, then it doesn't count.

[00:03:09] Right, because there was still some questionable, like, there's been some confirmations, but

[00:03:14] even those felt like a little dubious, right?

[00:03:17] That he played an uncredited that died.

[00:03:20] Yeah, right.

[00:03:22] It was totally him.

[00:03:23] It was absolutely him.

[00:03:24] I paused it several times just to make sure.

[00:03:27] It's unclear when he's making his mean face grimace.

[00:03:32] Very clear when he's making his stupid, almost dead face.

[00:03:36] That's Tom Cruise.

[00:03:38] Yeah.

[00:03:38] Tom Cruise's stupid dead face.

[00:03:40] Cannot be duplicated by any other actor.

[00:03:43] Sure.

[00:03:44] Yeah, sure.

[00:03:44] So, what happened was, we went to record Young Guns 1.

[00:03:50] We did a full recording on Young Guns 1.

[00:03:51] Very full, very detailed, very thought-provoking, I thought.

[00:03:58] I thought it was our best work.

[00:04:00] Now, I have a copy of my audio from that.

[00:04:03] I've got the full audio for my backup.

[00:04:06] So, if you want to listen to that, just go ahead and send me an email.

[00:04:09] I'll send you just my portion of the audio.

[00:04:12] You should send me that, and I'll see if I can fill it in, and I'll maybe set you up

[00:04:15] for somehow being racist somehow.

[00:04:17] You know?

[00:04:21] Anyway, clearly, we thought it would be fine.

[00:04:27] Zencaster just didn't record.

[00:04:29] Even though I pressed record, you saw me press record, counted down.

[00:04:32] I thought we were recording, and it just didn't happen.

[00:04:36] So, I'm interpreting that as a legitimate Guchar.

[00:04:40] We angered the few good men gods.

[00:04:44] A few good gods, if you will.

[00:04:47] And so, instead of trying to anger them a second time by re-recording Young Guns, the first movie,

[00:04:55] we've decided to choose a film that has zero Tom Cruise in it.

[00:05:01] And that is, but still has Kiefer.

[00:05:03] Still has Kiefer.

[00:05:05] That is Young Guns 2, what I'm calling a cinematic masterpiece.

[00:05:11] I don't know what you think about this film.

[00:05:15] Well, I would say that Young Guns 2 did what I thought was the impossible,

[00:05:19] and it made Young Guns look very good.

[00:05:25] I'm going to be honest.

[00:05:28] I enjoyed the movie.

[00:05:30] Clearly, it was not a good movie.

[00:05:33] But I think I might like it better than the first.

[00:05:37] I think I might like it better than the first.

[00:05:40] Objectively, there's no reason to.

[00:05:43] I've got no reason to like it.

[00:05:47] I've got no mathematical reason to like it better.

[00:05:52] The only way I can see that somebody would like it better is if they're like,

[00:05:56] well, I really love me some Balthazar Getty.

[00:06:02] Or, you like this.

[00:06:04] True, but you've got to wait through the whole thing to get to it.

[00:06:07] Every now and again, you have a little hint that, oh, there's something coming up.

[00:06:11] This movie has got the worst Western soundtrack.

[00:06:16] It's absolutely horrid.

[00:06:18] It's ridiculous.

[00:06:20] I never know if I'm supposed to be like having fun or being like,

[00:06:23] I mean, a movie has no tension.

[00:06:26] At times, I think, why didn't you just have Bon Jovi do the whole thing?

[00:06:30] Like, maybe just instead of making the movie,

[00:06:32] just have the Bon Jovi video play like.

[00:06:39] Is that the worst Bon Jovi song?

[00:06:44] I'm sure there's worse.

[00:06:47] It's the worst one that I know.

[00:06:49] And yet, it was a very popular song.

[00:06:52] Maybe I'm just not a fan of Bon Jovi.

[00:06:54] It's quite possible.

[00:06:56] Is Bon Jovi the Emilio Estevez of rock?

[00:07:03] The answer is yes.

[00:07:07] The answer is yes, and why didn't I think of that before?

[00:07:14] So, Young Guns.

[00:07:15] So, I think, you know, it's important that we will talk about Young Guns for those that are like really super excited.

[00:07:21] Because you have to.

[00:07:23] Because you can't.

[00:07:24] I mean, obviously, as we've talked about with sequels, they are sort of their own genre.

[00:07:30] It serves a very, it serves two masters, right?

[00:07:35] I mean, one, it has to pay enough service to the fan base that like the original.

[00:07:41] That it feels like it was worth continuing the story.

[00:07:44] And the other thing is, is that it serves as a continuation of the story.

[00:07:48] So, it doesn't have to follow normal cinematic rules.

[00:07:51] Because it doesn't have to establish characters because they've already been established.

[00:07:54] It's like another chapter, if you will.

[00:07:56] You can introduce some new characters.

[00:07:59] And then most films would feel the burden of like maybe giving those characters some color, some backstory, a reason to be.

[00:08:08] This one doesn't, which is really a clever take.

[00:08:12] Hey, here's some characters.

[00:08:13] And you don't need to really know anything about them.

[00:08:16] You don't even need to know why it matters.

[00:08:18] Alan Ruck is a farmer.

[00:08:20] What else do you need to know?

[00:08:22] Good lord.

[00:08:23] This is, it's a weird movie that like when Alan Ruck comes in, I'm like, finally like a decent performance.

[00:08:36] Christian Slater is only here to be Christian Slater.

[00:08:42] Well, and this may be part of the issue.

[00:08:44] I enjoy Christian Slater at this stage of his career.

[00:08:47] And I think you really did not like him.

[00:08:50] Well, I think, well, at the time, it's like, I think we all were like, we, I think we were just, we were handed Christian Slater and said, here you guys go.

[00:09:00] Have at it.

[00:09:01] Right?

[00:09:02] His best work at that point had been advertising the Darth Vader carrying case for Star Wars.

[00:09:09] I'm going to beg to differ.

[00:09:11] At this point, he had already done Heathers.

[00:09:15] And so that's, so I think that's one of the things, right?

[00:09:17] You get this sort of indie kind of dark comedy.

[00:09:20] And then you get like this sort of, you know, a Jack Nicholson prequel.

[00:09:26] And, and we feel like, Ooh, is this going to be our guy?

[00:09:30] And then we had to pump up the volume and they sort of, you know, made us want to be that.

[00:09:36] Like that was a thing.

[00:09:37] Well, okay.

[00:09:38] And then, and then he was the it guy.

[00:09:41] And for about five minutes, he was the it guy.

[00:09:44] He plays Arkansas Dave.

[00:09:45] Immediately when they said, yeah.

[00:09:47] Immediately when they said, he's the new it guy, we were like, uh, I don't know about that.

[00:09:53] Right.

[00:09:54] But he still was putting out, I thought, decent work, even though he was maybe overhyped.

[00:10:00] Maybe that was part of the problem.

[00:10:02] But I don't hate him in this movie.

[00:10:03] I think if you want kind of an arrogant, younger, gunslinging dude who's not as good as Billy the Kid, why not cast Christian Slater?

[00:10:18] So I think what happens in this movie is that as much as, I mean, I don't hate Christian Slater in this movie.

[00:10:25] I just don't.

[00:10:26] I feel the same way about him as I do everybody in this movie.

[00:10:29] I, I don't care.

[00:10:30] The degree of apathy that I have for every single person in this, in this movie is, is remarkable.

[00:10:37] It's staggering how little I care about anything that goes on.

[00:10:41] And fortunately nothing goes on.

[00:10:43] So it makes it easy.

[00:10:45] Um, I, this movie is, it's really interesting.

[00:10:49] Like typically in like a sequel, you may get like maybe more action or you get maybe just sort of a rehash of some sort of a plot point from the first one.

[00:10:59] Or you'll, you know, get mired in, in developing characters and maybe even like the bad guy character.

[00:11:05] Uh, this, this movie occupies like almost two hours and does none of those things.

[00:11:12] Like, I don't know what any of the point is of any of it.

[00:11:19] I mean, it's there.

[00:11:21] Well, they're leaving.

[00:11:22] Are they?

[00:11:23] Well, maybe they're just kind of going.

[00:11:26] And then a character that they.

[00:11:27] I've got to take on this.

[00:11:29] I think I might be able to help you a little bit, but I'll let you play this out.

[00:11:33] Go ahead.

[00:11:33] And then you've got this like, so the, the big tension point is supposed to be, uh, Pat Garrett, you know, former pal, um, turns on, uh, on Billy.

[00:11:45] Uh, you know, becomes, uh, uh, it comes, it comes to law and, uh, and goes to hunt him down.

[00:11:51] Eventually we'll study CSI.

[00:11:53] Right.

[00:11:53] But the movie is supposed to be about the tension between, you know, what were partners or, or, or, or, you know, pals.

[00:12:07] It feels weird.

[00:12:08] They're pals.

[00:12:09] And, and then, and then.

[00:12:11] No, that's the right word.

[00:12:12] Then you're looking for the right word.

[00:12:13] The right word.

[00:12:15] Yes.

[00:12:15] No, yeah.

[00:12:16] Is pals.

[00:12:17] It's the only word they offered us.

[00:12:19] Uh, and, and now they're rivals.

[00:12:21] And then, so the, it should be this sort of gripping tension of that, right?

[00:12:26] Where it's, how do we, how do we come to this final moment where, you know, he's going to have to, you know, make a choice about whether or not to, to off his, his pal or, uh, or, or let him go.

[00:12:39] So, and the movie just assumes that you feel that tension without doing anything to, to, to enable it.

[00:12:48] Um, it doesn't access it.

[00:12:50] We get so little of Pat Garrett.

[00:12:52] The movie is interesting in the, in the sense that it does actually give the audience almost more credit than they probably should have as far as understanding the lore of Billy, the kid and Pat Garrett.

[00:13:04] So that you already know that going in.

[00:13:07] Right.

[00:13:07] And so it doesn't do a lot to really develop it.

[00:13:10] So the idea that you see Pat Garrett as part of his, his posse in the beginning is supposed to be enough.

[00:13:16] You're like, Oh, I didn't realize that they were together.

[00:13:17] Or I did realize they were together.

[00:13:19] This will be interesting.

[00:13:20] And so it just kind of fast forwards through any sort of relational development between them.

[00:13:26] They just already exist.

[00:13:28] So think about young guns.

[00:13:30] Why?

[00:13:30] I think it's infinitely more charming than young guns too.

[00:13:34] Despite a lot of the same flaws.

[00:13:36] Um, it builds a world and then introduces Billy, the kid in this world.

[00:13:44] Young guns to Billy, the kid is the world.

[00:13:49] And so everything else.

[00:13:51] Well, it's a world that exists after he's become famous.

[00:13:56] Well, yeah, but it also assumes that Emilio Estevez as Billy, the kid is enough to build a world around.

[00:14:05] And, and it isn't, it just, it's just the, he's the central figure.

[00:14:10] And I don't feel like we've like what they did with young guns, which I kind of liked was this idea that, you know, Billy, the kid's credit is kind of an amalgam of everybody's credit.

[00:14:20] Right.

[00:14:20] Like, so it's all attributed to Billy, the kid.

[00:14:23] And there's a sense of like, even when they, when they have his wanted picture, it's, it's Charlie Sheen, which was probably because everybody wanted to kill him anyway, just based on the fact that his accent would come in and out.

[00:14:33] And, um, can't trust that.

[00:14:37] And so the idea that, okay, well, Billy, the kid is kind of like now living into that narrative and kind of leaning into it.

[00:14:42] Like, that's kind of an interesting concept, but they don't really do that.

[00:14:45] Like every time that Billy, the kid is supposed to be like either really good at shooting or kind of maniacal, it all feels false.

[00:14:52] And I, we, we talked about this in the last recording that Emilio Estevez's performance for me as Billy, the kid, I never bought it as authentically like a volatile because if, if Billy, the kid is a volatile figure and he's kind of crazy, there's always going to be tension between him and his pals because you don't know if he's going to just kind of turn on you.

[00:15:12] And I think that that's a more interesting version of Billy, the kid that I think they might've actually been trying to go for.

[00:15:18] But Emilio Estevez, because he's kind of a poser in this character kind of creates Billy, the kid is a poser in my reading.

[00:15:26] So I always read Billy, the kid in these movies as being more of leaning into his own hype than actually being like also kind of volatile and kind of crazy.

[00:15:37] But this movie assumes that we, we bought that.

[00:15:39] So maybe that's my biggest disconnect is that's how I left guns.

[00:15:43] And then I go to watch this one and I'm like, oh, they're actually just playing it off.

[00:15:47] Like, like he's, you know, he's going to somersault and shoot and, you know, and he's just a root and toot and I'm just not buying it.

[00:15:56] So I think all of that is justified for sure.

[00:15:59] And I, I want you to know that what I'm about to say should be contextualized in the acknowledgement that this is not a good film.

[00:16:13] If you want to kind of get an idea of how I watch this film, it was sort of like head cocked to 45 degree angle, slack jaw.

[00:16:24] The rest of my face was really pinched and there was a lot of blinking that was happening.

[00:16:30] That was, that was kind of my experience of watching this film.

[00:16:34] And yet I kind of got into it.

[00:16:38] And here are the things that I liked about this.

[00:16:41] So my feeling of Emilio Estevez has, I've never liked him very much, but I think I enjoyed him in the first movie more than you did.

[00:16:51] Uh huh.

[00:16:53] I, I liked that they killed Charlie Sheen pretty brutally in that first film.

[00:16:59] So that, that was good.

[00:17:01] I think I liked the supporting cast of this film better than, than the previous film.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:07] I think I'm going to disagree for sure.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:09] We're definitely going to disagree on that, but here's what I liked about this film.

[00:17:13] And what really made me interested in it is it's sort of playing with the, how much myth and history have to merge in order to us makes, in order for us to make sense of the old West.

[00:17:28] How much of it are we getting as myth?

[00:17:31] How much of it are we getting as history?

[00:17:33] How much of it is?

[00:18:04] What was more convincing, the makeup or his voice as an old man?

[00:18:08] He'd seen the soldiers murder his entire family.

[00:18:12] And he'd been hunted down like a dog and thrown in the pit.

[00:18:16] He knew his only chance was to skin out and head south.

[00:18:21] And that keeps coming through.

[00:18:22] Which he didn't do voiceovers.

[00:18:23] Because he does these voiceovers.

[00:18:24] And it reminds you that, like, in case you were forgetting this is a bad movie, let me interrupt.

[00:18:30] One fact about me is I had very small hands and very thick wrists.

[00:18:36] Which allowed me to get out of many, many handcuffs.

[00:18:43] By word.

[00:18:47] So, yeah.

[00:18:49] Yet another thing that was hindered my enjoyment.

[00:18:53] I kind of like the idea that the crucial thing to know about Billy the Kid is that he wants the attention.

[00:19:02] He is like that half-domesticated coyote who keeps coming back to town.

[00:19:11] And you can always predict that part of him.

[00:19:13] He's always going to want to come back to civilization because he wants to read the newspaper about himself.

[00:19:19] He wants people to, you know, say, oh, are you Billy the Kid?

[00:19:23] And he wants that attention.

[00:19:25] Pat Garrett's the guy that knows that.

[00:19:27] So he knows not to go down to old Mexico.

[00:19:30] And he knows, look, if we come this far and he hasn't seen a town yet, he's absolutely going to have to go to that town.

[00:19:37] And that comes back at the end.

[00:19:40] Because if Billy the Kid is still alive, you know, living under the name of Bushy Roberts or whatever his name was,

[00:19:51] eventually he's going to want attention again.

[00:19:53] So he comes back into town at the end of his life in 1950 and wants a pardon from the governor.

[00:19:59] That's a very Billy the Kid thing to do if you buy the Pat Garrett take on his personality.

[00:20:08] And so how much of it is a mythology?

[00:20:12] How much of this is actually history?

[00:20:15] It's kind of up to you to figure it out.

[00:20:18] And the movie doesn't necessarily help you figure it out, but it kind of points you in a couple different directions.

[00:20:25] And I like that part of it.

[00:20:27] Well, I think a lot of bad movies are good movies that are made bad.

[00:20:33] This is a little bit like a Twilight Zone episode where it's like the acting was not good.

[00:20:38] I mean, there's nothing about this that, you know, this was sort of poorly written sci-fi.

[00:20:44] But it's an interesting idea.

[00:20:45] It's an interesting idea.

[00:20:47] It just happened to take two hours to flesh out.

[00:20:50] Well, and that's exactly, I think, the issue.

[00:20:54] And I think part of the issue, too, is you run into is like you talk about the supporting cast.

[00:20:57] It's like, well, there is a need for whatever reason to bring back.

[00:21:02] You know, I mean, I know the reason.

[00:21:04] I mean, you want Kiefer and you want Diamond Phillips back because that, you know, connects the first film.

[00:21:10] And it would be, you know, it just wouldn't feel like Young Guns without as much of the surviving cast as possible.

[00:21:18] But it doesn't really move anything forward.

[00:21:22] Right.

[00:21:22] And I think you suffer from that notion because you find out kind of at the end the callback to the idea that, like, look, he's not really escaping.

[00:21:30] He's just trying to survive to make more headlines in a way.

[00:21:35] I mean, that's a really interesting twist on what is your hero.

[00:21:40] Right.

[00:21:40] Or at least the closest thing you've got to a hero in these movies.

[00:21:43] So I think that that's that that makes the character really rich.

[00:21:47] And I think it actually makes for an opportunity for a lot of tension and all that.

[00:21:51] And they just don't do it.

[00:21:53] Right.

[00:21:53] Or they they kind of do it at the end.

[00:21:55] And at that point, it's like, yeah, look, this is where the tension builds.

[00:21:59] And when and the person it builds to, we're going to kill immediately.

[00:22:03] You know, like Doc's character, like where you have this reveal sort of right.

[00:22:08] And this is going to be so rather than like deal with any tension amongst the crew, just we'll just kill him.

[00:22:13] And then but also like he says he's going to die.

[00:22:14] Now he's on their side.

[00:22:16] Like, hey, you know, let's finish the game.

[00:22:17] We're pals again.

[00:22:18] So it's it's pretty lazy.

[00:22:20] Right.

[00:22:20] I mean, it's it's a lazy way to take on an otherwise interesting concept.

[00:22:25] And the and the whole Pat Garrett, Billy, the kid relationship should be the movie.

[00:22:31] It really should.

[00:22:32] And it it just really isn't.

[00:22:34] I mean, it's it's a backdrop.

[00:22:37] And it really should have like if you're going to do almost two hours, I think you need an hour of developing that relationship.

[00:22:43] And you could do that in a way that's got action.

[00:22:45] That's got Christian Slater being a little racist.

[00:22:47] You can do all kinds of stuff with that.

[00:22:50] But like no scene.

[00:22:53] Had any level of the impact, I think, that it was intended to.

[00:22:57] Like the action scenes didn't feel very actiony.

[00:23:00] The character building didn't seem very character building.

[00:23:04] The humor didn't seem very humorous.

[00:23:07] So it was like there's a person I know who is like really boring.

[00:23:13] And not only is it me, not only is he boring, but like it's me as he has like no face.

[00:23:21] Oh, shit.

[00:23:22] It is me like like I like you could describe him.

[00:23:26] And I and I get to a sketch artist and it would just be just like a round circle and just two dots like for eyes.

[00:23:33] Like that's like you see him and you're like, you have no face.

[00:23:37] You have nothing to say, but you exist and you keep existing and you keep talking and you and you keep like incorporating yourself to the to to the surrounding environment.

[00:23:49] But it's just but the question is, well, why are you?

[00:23:53] And that's this movie.

[00:23:54] Why is it?

[00:23:56] Oh, my gosh.

[00:23:58] This is the worst thing you've ever said.

[00:24:04] All right.

[00:24:05] Well, now that Steve has decided to test out the flames of hell, because now we know he's a fundamentally evil person.

[00:24:15] Let's talk more about this film.

[00:24:17] Well, I I agree with you.

[00:24:20] And let me illustrate one of the things that really is a problem with this.

[00:24:25] I think that a major motivator for Billy's character in this film is supposed to be that this kid, this 14 year old kid who has attached himself to the gang.

[00:24:36] No, he gets murdered.

[00:24:40] And this is supposed to this is this really affects him deeply.

[00:24:44] Right.

[00:24:45] Yeah.

[00:24:45] Well, it's supposed to.

[00:24:47] So, OK, that's that's interesting.

[00:24:51] And I guess in real life that that kid was actually pretty close, a pretty close confidant and friend of Billy the kid.

[00:25:02] But the movie doesn't do that.

[00:25:04] In the movie, there's no there's no attempt to show their relationship or how it develops or why they're close.

[00:25:16] He's he's like a non character.

[00:25:19] And so when he dies, we're supposed to feel sad on behalf of Billy the kid just because he was a he's a young guy who I don't know why.

[00:25:32] I don't know why we're supposed to feel sad about.

[00:25:34] Well, and that's and that's the laziness.

[00:25:35] Right.

[00:25:35] It says I don't have to develop this child's character because just by virtue of them being a child, the audience will feel bad.

[00:25:44] And then they I mean, we know he's sneaky.

[00:25:47] He's sneaky.

[00:25:47] But they should also therefore then feel bad for Billy the kid.

[00:25:50] But Billy the kid hasn't been developed as a character that cares like that, because here's what you're trying to tell us about Billy the kid.

[00:25:56] He's selfish and he's a little crazy.

[00:25:58] So why would I assume that he has a really he cares about this kid?

[00:26:02] Because having this kid go along with you is actually more in line with the idea of being selfish and crazy than it is being, you know, a mentor type figure or having any relationship.

[00:26:13] So it's the movie betrays its own intent.

[00:26:17] And I think that the first movie really does play this out as, you know, Billy kids.

[00:26:21] He's not he's sort of an antihero in that first film.

[00:26:25] And I don't think that there's I don't think that they're like doing that on accident.

[00:26:31] They really want to make him seem like he's he's a thrill seeker.

[00:26:36] He's a liability to everyone around him.

[00:26:39] He's hellbent on vengeance.

[00:26:42] He's not self-aware in a number of ways.

[00:26:45] He's he's probably a psychopath.

[00:26:48] It wouldn't it be fun to watch that guy, the old west?

[00:26:50] You know, that was kind of the first film.

[00:26:52] Right.

[00:26:53] Well, this film, there's sort of a mythology built up around Billy the kid.

[00:26:57] How much of it is true?

[00:26:59] How much of it is false?

[00:27:01] Whatever the case is, this movie really he's become a hero.

[00:27:06] He's become a hero.

[00:27:07] He's even in New York newspapers.

[00:27:09] That's how much he's a he's a hero.

[00:27:11] Kids are pretending to be him in the streets.

[00:27:13] Uh huh.

[00:27:14] And I think at the end of it, it's a little bit confusing.

[00:27:19] Is this guy a hero?

[00:27:21] Are is that how we're supposed to view him?

[00:27:24] And I mean, I guess they just don't do enough to make you feel one way or the other about

[00:27:29] it.

[00:27:30] Well, and they and they also don't do enough to make it complicated.

[00:27:33] Right.

[00:27:33] Like, I mean, that's the other side of it.

[00:27:34] It's like that's why I feel like there's a whole lot of nothing going on because because

[00:27:41] you would assume if you go, I don't know if he's a hero or not.

[00:27:45] Like the the silver lining should be.

[00:27:49] But I appreciate the complication of how they develop that character where we're like, I'm

[00:27:54] rooting for somebody, but maybe I shouldn't be.

[00:27:57] But but in this case, you're just like, I just watched Billy the Kid just kind of be

[00:28:01] in the West.

[00:28:03] OK, here's all right.

[00:28:05] Here's a little bit of complication here.

[00:28:07] And I like.

[00:28:08] So here's a here's a part of the movie that I like.

[00:28:13] They're playing a lot with this trickster god theme in this movie.

[00:28:18] You wrote a 15 year old boy straight into his grave and the rest of us straight to hell,

[00:28:25] straight to hell.

[00:28:29] Funny or not.

[00:28:43] Pull the trigger and find out.

[00:28:44] The trickster god, you know, you'll probably know because Loki has been in Marvel.

[00:28:52] But trickster gods are part of lots of different mythologies in Native American lore.

[00:28:56] It's the coyote.

[00:28:58] And what a trickster god is supposed to do is he's supposed to sort of upset the standard

[00:29:04] morality or or belief system or power structure.

[00:29:09] And he's a little bit tricky and he probably does magic and he's not good.

[00:29:14] He's not necessarily a good person, but he sort of like exists in gray areas.

[00:29:20] And in this.

[00:29:22] So the lowercase s Satan.

[00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:26] Sure.

[00:29:26] Yeah.

[00:29:26] Yeah.

[00:29:27] Very tricky in that way.

[00:29:28] In the same way that Loki is sort of like a gray, gray character.

[00:29:34] All right.

[00:29:35] So anyway, you have a couple call outs to this in this movie.

[00:29:38] You've got the Chavez character saying this is what they say you are.

[00:29:42] I know that that's not true.

[00:29:43] I know that you're you're no coyote who can like turn into a coyote and disappear and then

[00:29:50] reappear somewhere else.

[00:29:52] You're just kind of an amoral asshole.

[00:29:55] That's what he didn't say those words.

[00:29:57] Right.

[00:29:57] But that's basically what he says.

[00:29:59] You know, you're the kind of guy that gets your pals killed.

[00:30:02] That's who you really are.

[00:30:05] And you kind of buy it at that point.

[00:30:07] You're like, yeah, that that kind of tracks.

[00:30:10] But then you've got this other take on the coyote later on that, you know, maybe he is

[00:30:15] like half coyote.

[00:30:16] You know, maybe he's maybe there's a little bit of the mythology about him.

[00:30:20] That's true.

[00:30:21] From Pat Garrett's perspective.

[00:30:23] You've got another scene where he's actually doing a magic trick.

[00:30:29] He's like doing close up magic, which is kind of plays with the theme.

[00:30:33] And then immediately after that, he's able to escape like his reputation would be.

[00:30:38] He does gun tricks for people.

[00:30:41] So he's he's a little bit.

[00:30:46] He's got a guy.

[00:30:47] He got a coyote loose.

[00:30:49] Well, hey, guys.

[00:30:53] And then later on, Chavez says something.

[00:30:57] He says, look, you're not a god.

[00:31:00] And he's got a gun in his face.

[00:31:02] And he says, well, why don't you shoot me and find out?

[00:31:06] So I like the idea that they're playing with that kind of trickster god mythology with Billy

[00:31:13] the Kid, because it is another hint and another wink to this question.

[00:31:17] How much of this story that we're telling is myth and how much of it is history?

[00:31:22] Yeah.

[00:31:22] And it's a way for sort of the audience to kind of be in on the problem of the storytelling

[00:31:28] aspect.

[00:31:31] I like it.

[00:31:32] I like that part of it.

[00:31:33] Well, you I think you like the idea of it.

[00:31:36] You sure about that?

[00:31:37] That's why?

[00:31:38] No, I'm saying it was a theme of the movie.

[00:31:40] It was a conscious effort to make that a theme of the movie.

[00:31:43] I enjoyed the theme.

[00:31:44] I enjoyed myself while I was watching them play the theme out.

[00:31:47] OK, well, I just feel like every time that theme would come up, I'd be like, man, in a

[00:31:52] better movie, that would be great.

[00:31:55] So I end up the more that it would introduce something that I would like, the harder it

[00:32:03] was to enjoy, because I was like, well, don't like you've given me a menu and I order

[00:32:09] the food on the menu and then it comes out and it's not at all what I ordered.

[00:32:14] And that's I thought that was one theme that they did pretty well.

[00:32:19] I think it was a thing that they wrote down and had people talk about.

[00:32:23] I let me say let me.

[00:32:26] All right.

[00:32:27] We can we can disagree on that.

[00:32:28] I will say this.

[00:32:29] I liked Kiefer better in the first film.

[00:32:33] Well, because he has a role.

[00:32:35] I don't think his I don't think his character makes any sense in this film at all.

[00:32:38] He serves no purpose in this movie other than to be Kiefer Sutherland and to be called

[00:32:43] Peter Foot.

[00:32:43] I enjoyed Lou Diamond Phillips more in this film than in the first film.

[00:32:49] Well, they well.

[00:32:51] So now I think it's important to start talking about the first film a little bit.

[00:32:55] We're going to see you next time.

[00:33:27] What's your relationship with Westerns?

[00:33:31] So I feel like I entered into the Western through really kind of the 90s, 1990s anti-Western.

[00:33:41] Like Unforgiven?

[00:33:42] Like Unforgiven, you know, you know, kind of I guess White Earp is sort of a more traditional

[00:33:49] Western.

[00:33:51] You know, I entered.

[00:33:53] Dances with Wolves.

[00:33:55] I a little bit later on, I saw Butch Cassidy.

[00:34:00] So that is one of my favorite films.

[00:34:02] So I feel like my my lens on the Western always kind of had a self-critical part of it.

[00:34:13] Right.

[00:34:14] I in other words, I really enjoy Westerns when they're aiming to deconstruct the Western.

[00:34:20] Right.

[00:34:20] And so, yeah, I have a much different feeling about 1950s, 1960s iterations of this.

[00:34:29] Right.

[00:34:29] Because my my perception of Westerns growing up with them kind of being on in the background

[00:34:32] in the house and my parents were older was it was very much through like a John Wayne

[00:34:39] lens.

[00:34:39] Right.

[00:34:40] And sure.

[00:34:40] And I'll be honest, I don't think I really sat and watched through any of them.

[00:34:44] But there was always a sense of like almost an American exceptionalism hero trope kind

[00:34:51] of going through.

[00:34:51] I mean, not even almost not even.

[00:34:54] For sure.

[00:34:54] Right.

[00:34:54] It was like I think John Wayne may be like the height of American exceptionalism.

[00:34:59] Right.

[00:34:59] And so there's this idea that that there's it's kind of a lawless time.

[00:35:04] But that's when but because of that, true heroes were born.

[00:35:08] Right.

[00:35:08] Like the idea of it's wild, but you could still be a hero.

[00:35:12] So like the idea of heroism and Westerns kind of went hand in hand.

[00:35:15] Right.

[00:35:15] So this idea of an antihero being the central point.

[00:35:19] I don't know when this became the thing.

[00:35:22] And I give Young Guns a little bit of credit.

[00:35:25] Because it tried to the original Young Guns tries to manage that.

[00:35:30] Right.

[00:35:30] Like so Jake Tunstall, he's he's this kind of hero amongst this world of chaos and lawlessness.

[00:35:37] And he's trying to to teach these wayward youth etiquette and how to read and manners and

[00:35:44] and, you know, maybe have business sense.

[00:35:46] And he's sort of building them up.

[00:35:48] Right.

[00:35:48] So it's.

[00:35:49] Yeah.

[00:35:49] He's bringing like an ox Brit civilized society to some desert town in New Mexico.

[00:35:57] Right.

[00:35:57] Or or it's, you know, Epstein Island in the Old West.

[00:36:00] I don't know.

[00:36:01] Whichever.

[00:36:01] But like he.

[00:36:02] We don't get to see that developed quite as well as we we might because he dies.

[00:36:09] Right.

[00:36:09] Right.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:10] Early on.

[00:36:10] So but so he.

[00:36:11] So this is where Billy the Kid sort of we get introduced to Billy the Kid through this.

[00:36:17] He's not really fitting in with the group because he's, you know, he's Billy the Kid and these

[00:36:20] these they're all like moving towards what they think maybe whether it's higher education

[00:36:25] or just a higher sense of worth, you know, Billy the Kid.

[00:36:29] We find out he can read.

[00:36:31] So he's pretty savvy.

[00:36:32] So here's this guy who's probably very afraid of pigs.

[00:36:36] I'll say very afraid of pigs.

[00:36:37] But, you know, again, we that's a that's a prequel that I'd love to find out why why

[00:36:42] that happens.

[00:36:43] But so then, you know, you have this whole meat trading and, you know, and competing merchant

[00:36:50] war essentially is what the kind of supposedly comes down to.

[00:36:55] And and they, you know, off the Tunstall character, you know, and Jack Palance is now Roman free

[00:37:03] amongst the the the West.

[00:37:06] And so then they end up deputizing the these regulators.

[00:37:11] And among them, of course, is Billy the Kid.

[00:37:13] And they want to be the law.

[00:37:14] But like they don't really have a leader anymore because they because because Tunstall was served

[00:37:19] not just as a leader, but kind of as the moral compass.

[00:37:21] Right.

[00:37:22] So you have Charlie Sheen's character who's one dimensional in every aspect.

[00:37:29] And so he's sort of the leader.

[00:37:31] But at times he's point five dimensional.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] He's he's just he's just an X axis.

[00:37:37] There is no Y.

[00:37:39] He so he becomes sort of the default leader because because of his wavering accent and hat.

[00:37:45] And then but Billy the Kid then becomes kind of their leader because nobody's nobody's like a leader,

[00:37:54] like nobody's an alpha.

[00:37:55] Right.

[00:37:55] And so he just by virtue of which I think the movie does a pretty good job,

[00:38:02] even even despite some of the performance that goes along with it and saying,

[00:38:06] look, this is a charismatic figure.

[00:38:08] He is.

[00:38:09] Well, yeah, you've given these guys a crazy task.

[00:38:12] You're going to you're going to go arrest these people with all this like both manpower and political power.

[00:38:19] It would take someone crazy to go and try to take these guys on.

[00:38:24] So by default, because this is a crazy task, the craziest guy among them gets pushed forward.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:32] And so he becomes the kind of the default leader of this group.

[00:38:36] And guess what?

[00:38:38] He's crazy.

[00:38:38] So he doesn't arrest people.

[00:38:40] He kills them.

[00:38:41] Right.

[00:38:41] So.

[00:38:41] Right.

[00:38:41] And in a sense, his craziness is actually probably savvy because we do know a little bit about this Old West situation.

[00:38:49] And these guys, just because they have badges doesn't mean that like there's corruption throughout.

[00:38:55] Right.

[00:38:56] And it's these it's sort of like the wealthy have have the control.

[00:39:00] So he's not wrong.

[00:39:01] And when you really look at it, they're not going quietly.

[00:39:03] They're not going to issue these warrants and people are just going to be like, well, OK, child.

[00:39:08] Take me in.

[00:39:10] You know, it's going to go down this way.

[00:39:11] And so while he may be crazy, there's probably a little savvy in there that says, look, guys, we're look, these badges are as as authentic as the the corrupt police that we're trying to go against.

[00:39:24] So there is something about that.

[00:39:26] I think that is interesting.

[00:39:27] And while I don't believe that Emilio Estevez executes Billy the kid in the way that he's intended to be, I buy at least even if it's accidentally done, at least I can go on that ride because it feels consistent.

[00:39:44] And the movie Young Guns has a lot of charming moments.

[00:39:47] Right.

[00:39:48] I mean, I think the peyote scene is is very charming.

[00:39:50] What if I flies to a flower stays with her?

[00:39:57] It's kind of like the breakfast club marijuana scene to some degree.

[00:40:01] Right.

[00:40:01] Exactly.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:03] Very brat packy.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] And but I think it actually helps because it does do something that sort of galvanizes the group a little bit.

[00:40:12] But, you know, it's a team building exercise, a little bit of ropes course and trust falls, things of that nature.

[00:40:16] But it's the Old West version.

[00:40:17] So I kind of buy that.

[00:40:19] It helps me see them working together because they kind of went on their little, you know, vision quest or whatever it was.

[00:40:27] And I, unlike you, think that Dermot Mulroney and Casey Shamasco are way better additions to the regulators than Christian Slater and Alan Ruck are.

[00:40:40] And, of course, we're going to have to disagree on that.

[00:40:45] Yeah, that's a disagreement that I think feels like your show.

[00:40:50] Dermot Mulroney.

[00:40:52] Yeah.

[00:40:53] Sounds like an actual Western name.

[00:40:55] I want you to know that what he thought would be good acting would just be to always have a big, big wad of chaw in his lip.

[00:41:06] Yeah.

[00:41:06] That seems authentic to the time than Christian Slater's amazing hair and the way he talks, you know how they do in the Old West.

[00:41:18] I'll take Christian Slater.

[00:41:20] I know.

[00:41:20] I think this is more of a Christian Slater thing than it is an actual performance thing.

[00:41:24] Casey Shamasco, very charming, very underrated as the pugilist in Young Guns.

[00:41:29] Oh, he's very charming.

[00:41:31] All right.

[00:41:33] Okay.

[00:41:33] I'll take your word for it.

[00:41:34] Casey Shamasco's death is a thousand times more interesting than Balthazar Gettys.

[00:41:43] I mean, Balthazar Gettys was like, I'm like, are we watching Young Guns 2 or is this going to be what's eating Wyatt Earp?

[00:41:50] I want you to know that now that we're talking about Young Guns, the original movie, I feel a little bit afraid for what's going to happen to this podcast.

[00:42:02] Yeah, I'm looking.

[00:42:02] And it's still recording.

[00:42:03] And I'm going to see if my backup is also recording.

[00:42:05] My backup is still recording, too.

[00:42:07] All right.

[00:42:07] Okay.

[00:42:07] I just want to call that out, that we're tempting the gods once again.

[00:42:13] We're framing Young Guns 2 by referring back to Young Guns.

[00:42:20] No, I just, I mean, Young Guns wasn't great.

[00:42:25] But again, I, like I said, I felt like it built a world and then Billy the Kid is introduced into that world.

[00:42:31] And then by the time we get to Young Guns 2, it's all about Billy the Kid.

[00:42:36] And that requires a different touch.

[00:42:39] And I mean, the director of this film, I don't know if you looked at any of his other work.

[00:42:47] It's already problematic because it's, his name is either Jeff Murphy or Joff Murphy.

[00:42:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:54] But he, he was in charge of two sequels besides Young Guns 2.

[00:43:01] They are Fortress 2, re-entry.

[00:43:04] Not sure if you're familiar with Fortress, the original.

[00:43:06] I am not.

[00:43:08] But they're bad movies and they get worse.

[00:43:11] And then Under Siege 2.

[00:43:16] Hmm.

[00:43:17] Under Siege is actually kind of like a low-key, pretty entertaining.

[00:43:20] I mean, Under Siege 2 is the Young Guns 2 of the Under Siege library.

[00:43:26] Hmm.

[00:43:26] Never seen it.

[00:43:27] But he also made a movie called The Quiet Earth.

[00:43:33] Are you familiar with The Quiet Earth?

[00:43:36] I am not.

[00:43:37] No.

[00:43:39] One of the worst movies I've ever seen in my life.

[00:43:41] Really?

[00:43:42] Oh, goodness.

[00:43:43] Tell me about this movie.

[00:43:45] So, this is one of these things where a man is basically by himself.

[00:43:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:52] He wakes up and the, the, the, it feels like everybody's just gone.

[00:43:56] And so it kind of has this.

[00:43:57] Oh, this is my dream.

[00:43:58] Keep going.

[00:43:59] And then, and then it's like a search for other people.

[00:44:02] So it kind of has like a little bit of that.

[00:44:03] Oh, that's where you lose me.

[00:44:04] I, I would, I'm with, I was with you.

[00:44:07] You lost me when there's an effort to find other people.

[00:44:12] Yeah.

[00:44:13] So he, he's thinking he's on, he's the only one.

[00:44:14] Then he runs into some other people.

[00:44:17] And, uh.

[00:44:18] That's hell.

[00:44:19] That's hell.

[00:44:20] There are, there are some, as, as much as I dislike it, I will watch it in a heartbeat.

[00:44:27] Because it is, has some of the most unintentionally humorous moments.

[00:44:33] And it is such a mishmash.

[00:44:36] And I did not know that he had directed Young Guns 2 until I did a little research.

[00:44:41] And I was like, oh, well, now this makes sense to me.

[00:44:45] Okay.

[00:44:45] Speaking of research, I want to tell you a few things about this film that I felt like helped

[00:44:52] me make sense of the things that didn't make sense before.

[00:44:56] The first is that, uh, early on in the filming, Lou Diamond filming, Phillips almost dies.

[00:45:05] He's got a noose around his neck.

[00:45:08] And he's on a skittish horse.

[00:45:12] The horse bucks him.

[00:45:14] And the noose gets attached to the saddle.

[00:45:18] So he's actually being drug behind a horse.

[00:45:21] They've got to helicopter him to the hospital.

[00:45:24] He broke his, like, kneecap.

[00:45:27] Severely damaged his neck.

[00:45:29] And, uh, and broke his, his, uh, his wrist.

[00:45:35] And that is what, you know, two weeks in the hospital.

[00:45:38] He gets out.

[00:45:39] They try to film the rest of the movie.

[00:45:42] That is why they have that scene where Christian Slater stabs him through the forearm.

[00:45:52] Mm.

[00:45:52] Because he's actually walking around in, like, a cast or something.

[00:45:58] Oh.

[00:45:58] Under his poncho.

[00:46:01] I, I always thought, I mean, I, I wouldn't say I always, but when I was watching, I thought,

[00:46:05] this is a really horrible, like, the knife goes through his arm and now, now he's fine.

[00:46:11] You know?

[00:46:11] Right, right.

[00:46:11] I didn't like that at all, but that, that was sort of their, uh, Luke Skywalker.

[00:46:18] Gotcha.

[00:46:20] Uh, having gone through the, the car accidents and now they've got to include some kind of

[00:46:26] healing water tank.

[00:46:27] What do you call that tank again?

[00:46:29] Bacta tank.

[00:46:30] The Bacta tank.

[00:46:31] That was their Bacta tank.

[00:46:33] Um, the other thing about this is that Kiefer Sutherland's character, Doc, he doesn't die

[00:46:38] in real life.

[00:46:39] He lives a long, happy life.

[00:46:41] He gets married.

[00:46:42] He moves to Texas or something.

[00:46:43] But in the film, he's got to go film Flatliners or something.

[00:46:48] So he demands that they kill him off earlier so he can be offset.

[00:46:53] Uh, yeah, I think that was just, he's like, there's no chance I'm doing a third one of

[00:46:57] these.

[00:47:00] So he, he demands to go out in a blaze of glory.

[00:47:12] So I appreciate that.

[00:47:14] He also could have just not died and you can just write him, I mean, it's a movie, film

[00:47:18] it however you want.

[00:47:21] Anyway, those are two little things I learned about this film.

[00:47:24] Neither one of them enhanced my enjoyment of the film, but it kind of made like, oh, I

[00:47:29] get why this was bad.

[00:47:30] Right.

[00:47:30] Uh, these are two additional things that would make this bad.

[00:47:35] Well, here's an interesting, like, and this is maybe too close of a reading.

[00:47:39] Uh, and I, and I'm, and I am going to have to talk about Young Guns, the original, uh,

[00:47:44] and why I kind of brought up some of the Western concepts about like the idea of Westerns and

[00:47:48] how maybe Young Guns was trying to bridge the generation gap to some degree, right?

[00:47:53] Like, so you have maybe a generation of people that see the John Waynes as sort of like

[00:47:57] Westerns and then bringing in these young, young Hollywood stars.

[00:48:00] That just didn't seem like good enough.

[00:48:03] Right.

[00:48:03] So they, you know, you have a Jack Palance, you, you have, um, some class, some, maybe

[00:48:07] some, some people that would be in those types of films that, that, uh, attach, uh, to,

[00:48:13] to maybe say, Hey, look, let's all come together for, for this new look on Westerns.

[00:48:16] And this might be how we do Westerns going forward.

[00:48:18] It's, it's, it's kind of a bold move.

[00:48:20] And then, but in, in it, uh, as you had pointed out is that, uh, John Wayne's son,

[00:48:25] correct?

[00:48:25] Is, is plays Pat Garrett in Young Guns, the original.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:29] Patrick Wayne.

[00:48:31] I would say it's a cameo.

[00:48:33] It's not much more than a cameo.

[00:48:35] And it does.

[00:48:36] It serves.

[00:48:38] And I think it also, it brings up a, um, a couple of complications, right?

[00:48:43] Well, one, it brings in a cameo that like, well, you'd have to know that.

[00:48:48] Right.

[00:48:49] And I don't know if you would know that at that moment.

[00:48:52] I don't know that people are like, would be, Hey, isn't that John Wayne's son?

[00:48:56] Right.

[00:48:57] So I think.

[00:48:58] Yeah.

[00:48:58] It was sort of like fan service for our parents generation.

[00:49:02] But even so, like, I don't know.

[00:49:05] I don't know if my father would be, Oh, I know that that's John Wayne.

[00:49:08] Exactly.

[00:49:08] Right.

[00:49:08] So there's that, there's that aspect of it.

[00:49:10] And the second part of it is, is that it introduces Pat Garrett as kind of a wink and

[00:49:15] a nod to the lore.

[00:49:17] Um, but if you don't know the lore, that means not sure.

[00:49:22] Right.

[00:49:23] And so that's the other thing about this movie.

[00:49:25] That's a little bit interesting is it does assume both movies assume that, you know, the

[00:49:28] lore and it's a, and that's a tricky thing to do because you gave me advice as a comic

[00:49:34] a long time ago that I, that I really hold to heart and I, and I, and I share it with others

[00:49:38] is the kind of the teach them why it's funny.

[00:49:40] Like if you have a joke or, you know, you have a reference that might be a little bit

[00:49:45] like niche and might have a little bit of a narrow audience for, um, go ahead and

[00:49:53] comedically explain what's about to happen.

[00:49:56] You know, not like explaining the joke, but at least giving, you can give background so

[00:50:00] that that joke now has a wider audience.

[00:50:03] Um, and again, it has to be done in a humorous way.

[00:50:06] You can't just stop and set everything up, but it, the whole teach them why it's funny.

[00:50:10] They don't know they're being taught until they see it.

[00:50:12] And I think you have to kind of do that with some of this Western lore, especially if, if

[00:50:16] you're trying to make a movie that's going to appeal to a younger audience, chances are

[00:50:21] that if you're a, if you're a fan of Estevez and, and, and, uh, Kiefer Sutherland and all

[00:50:28] these guys at this time, you may not be all that learned on, on the lore of the wild west.

[00:50:34] So I think that doesn't do a really good, I mean, it does a decent job of understanding

[00:50:39] those lore, but it doesn't do a really good job of telling you, no, this is kind of how,

[00:50:43] like, I honestly, I watched young guns dozens of times and I just recently realized, oh no,

[00:50:50] that's actually, there was all these people and they did kind of work together.

[00:50:53] There was the regular, I didn't know Billy.

[00:50:55] I thought that was, this was a way to introduce Billy the kid in a brat packy way.

[00:50:58] I didn't realize it was, it was based on anything foundational.

[00:51:02] Right.

[00:51:03] Oh, so when you bring Pat Garrett in and it's this cameo that's supposed to kind of mean

[00:51:07] something that mattered to me because I actually did take a wild west class when I was in eighth

[00:51:11] grade.

[00:51:11] So I knew these kinds of things.

[00:51:13] So I was kind of like, oh, that's interesting.

[00:51:14] But at the end of the movie, what I'm sure there's a long way to get to what I was trying

[00:51:17] to get to is at the end, it says, you know, Patrick Wayne as Pat Garrett.

[00:51:21] Like it makes a point of doing that.

[00:51:23] So the intent to try to maybe tie in a classic Western actor to this modern version that might

[00:51:32] bridge the gap is kind of buried and, but it's an important thing.

[00:51:37] But then this movie does, this is where I'm going to actually think, this is where I think

[00:51:40] the director, and I'm just putting it on the director's feet at this point, is almost like

[00:51:47] he didn't understand that.

[00:51:49] So it's like when, when we get the credits for this film, it, it makes a point after the

[00:52:01] main characters to say, and William Peterson as Pat Garrett, like that was a big deal.

[00:52:08] Like the reason why it said Patrick Wayne as Pat Garrett in the first one was because on

[00:52:12] Wayne's son, like that's kind of a, that's kind of an homage, kind of a wink and a nod thing.

[00:52:17] And so the idea that William Peterson as Pat Garrett, like it doesn't have the same gravitas

[00:52:23] at all.

[00:52:24] I don't know why William Peterson gets this special moment almost as if they're like, well,

[00:52:28] isn't that what you're supposed to do whenever you say someone's playing Pat Garrett?

[00:52:32] So that it's interesting because I initially I was thinking, who, how do I know this guy?

[00:52:38] He's so familiar.

[00:52:41] Well, it's definitely the CSI guy, right?

[00:52:43] Oh yeah.

[00:52:44] But at this point he's young, he's thin.

[00:52:49] There's no way that you would recognize him.

[00:52:52] He's, I don't know if he's a full unknown, but there's no reason.

[00:52:56] No, he'd been in some things, but it's not like it was like, Ooh, you got William Peterson,

[00:52:59] huh?

[00:53:00] Yeah.

[00:53:01] You know what I mean?

[00:53:01] It's like, Oh, he was in, in Manhunter or to live and die in LA.

[00:53:05] He's not anything bigger than what you've already got.

[00:53:08] I mean, for crying out loud, if you had said, uh, the guy who played Cameron from Ferris

[00:53:12] of Bueller, people would be like, huh?

[00:53:17] All right.

[00:53:18] This film does do something similar though.

[00:53:22] The second film with James Coburn.

[00:53:26] Best voice in the movie by far.

[00:53:27] Okay.

[00:53:29] So James Coburn actually plays Pat Garrett in a previous film.

[00:53:34] And I'm going to play you a line from that previous film.

[00:53:38] The film was a Peckinpah joint named Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett.

[00:53:43] You can take those figures and shove them up your arrogant little ass and set fire to

[00:53:47] them.

[00:53:47] I don't owe you a goddamn thing.

[00:53:49] All right.

[00:53:50] So that was from Young Guns 2.

[00:53:52] All right.

[00:53:53] Now here he is again in the previous film.

[00:53:56] Could it take your $500, shove it up your ass and set fire to it?

[00:54:01] So he's almost, it's almost the same line.

[00:54:04] And it's one of these things where the director is like, okay, we're going to nod to this previous

[00:54:09] film that included these two guys.

[00:54:13] We're going to bring in an actor pretty much for a cameo, sort of like fans of us to the older

[00:54:20] generation.

[00:54:23] But again, pretty much lost on anyone who's watching Young Guns 2.

[00:54:29] Right.

[00:54:29] Because I don't think it's, you're not pulling that same demographic.

[00:54:33] That's right.

[00:54:34] That's right.

[00:54:34] You're not, you're not pulling it.

[00:54:35] Now I will say this, this film was pretty popular and I think it almost restarts the

[00:54:46] Western.

[00:54:47] It shows that it's viable, right?

[00:54:49] I think that the first Young Guns is, it's questionable.

[00:54:54] Like, are we really sure we want to do this?

[00:54:55] People are kind of done with Westerns.

[00:54:57] But by the time the second Young Guns comes out, it comes out the same year as both Dances

[00:55:04] with Wolves, so Prestige Western, and Back to the Future 3, which is Popcorn Western.

[00:55:10] Right, right.

[00:55:11] And so you've got these two films that is kind of a return of the Western.

[00:55:16] Maybe this film also ends the resurgence as well.

[00:55:19] Well, I think what it, I think what it's from a Hollywood perspective, it's saying Westerns

[00:55:25] are viable products still.

[00:55:28] So it doesn't necessarily return, I don't think it returns maybe to the romance or maybe

[00:55:34] reinvent the Western, but it just shows that you can make a buck.

[00:55:39] Right.

[00:55:40] And it did.

[00:55:41] I mean, it did that.

[00:55:43] Yeah, it was an attempt to be a Popcorn Western for sure.

[00:55:46] I don't, but I think what's interesting, like to your point, I don't know that anybody

[00:55:49] that enjoyed maybe Young Guns and Young Guns 2, or especially Young Guns 2, because it's

[00:55:54] not super enjoyable and it, you know, not critically beloved by any stretch.

[00:56:00] I don't know that it reinvigorated those viewers' passion for Westerns.

[00:56:06] Like, I feel like Young Guns 2, the original, does a better job of kind of bringing some of

[00:56:12] the Western look.

[00:56:13] There is nothing gritty about this movie.

[00:56:16] It was really fascinating because it's so bright.

[00:56:20] There's no filters for any purpose.

[00:56:23] There's like almost no camera work for like slow motion effect or creating any kind of tension.

[00:56:31] The music creates no tension.

[00:56:34] Just like no scene brings out whatever purpose it was supposed to do.

[00:56:39] Yeah, but you had Bradley Whitford in this one.

[00:56:42] But Young Guns does.

[00:56:44] Like Young Guns goes a little sepia at times.

[00:56:46] Young Guns goes, feels more Western-y than this one.

[00:56:50] This one feels like, as Heather put it, it's like you went to go watch a Wild West play

[00:56:55] at Disneyland or something.

[00:56:58] Was there a trope, a cliche, or device in this film that you enjoyed?

[00:57:05] The sort of the misdirection on the sort of the duel, right?

[00:57:09] Where he's, oh, he puts his gun down.

[00:57:13] Puts the gun down and then, you know, has the draw and then he tells, you know, Dave to shoot the guy.

[00:57:21] That sequence I liked.

[00:57:23] Probably a call back to Butch Cassidy.

[00:57:26] That'd be my, there's a similar scene in Butch Cassidy.

[00:57:32] I kind of like a horse tumbling down a mountain.

[00:57:38] Pretty clever, you know, having Chavez go over the mountain on the horse and eventually, you know, reveal that he was trying to tell the horse to stop.

[00:57:50] It works for me.

[00:57:51] It works for me.

[00:57:52] I like to see cowboys going down a really steep hill on a horse.

[00:57:55] I was a little disappointed that we didn't get cowboy in the bathtub like we got in the first film.

[00:58:02] But we did get a completely gratuitous nude scene that did nothing to move the movie forward at all.

[00:58:10] We had a cheeky prostitute on horseback nude.

[00:58:14] Right.

[00:58:15] And that moved the story in what way?

[00:58:19] It suggested that maybe she had as many foibles with the law as Billy the Kid did.

[00:58:27] And so now she's on his side and she's going to help him escape.

[00:58:31] With her little lady Godiva moment for no reason.

[00:58:35] So, yeah.

[00:58:38] Was there a tweak that you would make to this movie to improve it?

[00:58:42] I would just say we're re-releasing Young Guns.

[00:58:48] I'm going to use the one that I used in the first film.

[00:58:51] I really think it would work.

[00:58:52] I would like to see the gang this time go south and then west and become vampires.

[00:59:00] So, I like that idea for the first film.

[00:59:04] Mr. Tunzel had a great vampire face.

[00:59:08] Kiefer Sutherland is the perfect vampire face.

[00:59:11] I would love to see an old western gang eventually become vampires and end up in Santa Cruz at some point.

[00:59:24] Worse for me.

[00:59:25] Finally, Steve.

[00:59:27] Is this film better, worse, or on par with a Ron Howard film?

[00:59:31] Ron Howard minus six.

[00:59:33] Wow.

[00:59:35] I would say Howard minus two.

[00:59:37] Like I said, at times it was a pretty effective popcorn movie for me.

[00:59:45] Yeah, I think that it, like I said, every time it introduced an idea that seemed interesting and went out of its way to not deliver on it, it just bummed me out.

[00:59:57] Is there a half the battle, one to grow on moment in this film?

[01:00:02] Even if the sheriff is bad, let him finish his joke.

[01:00:13] I just feel like there's just so many lessons that we can learn from Bon Jovi.

[01:00:19] I think maybe a bigger platform for Bon Jovi in the modern world.

[01:00:25] We lost the relevance of Bon Jovi way too soon.

[01:00:28] Yeah, yeah.

[01:00:30] You can kind of like chart the decline of society to the decline of Bon Jovi's popularity.

[01:00:37] Yeah, I mean, we're giving love a bad name and nobody's calling us out on it.

[01:01:09] You'll figure, shove them up your arrogant little ass and set fire to them.

[01:01:13] I don't owe you a goddamn thing.

[01:01:15] We're going to go ahead and do it.

[01:02:33] We're going to go ahead and do it.

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