Steve and Anthony are overmatched by No Country for Old Men.
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00:20 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Properly Hours, a podcast that receives classic films and other book fiction.
00:26 --> 00:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Today we take a look at the Academy Award winning No Country for Old Man.
00:31 --> 00:40 [SPEAKER_00]: starring Tommy Lee Jones, Josh Brolin, and Abbey Airbar Dam, no country for old men wrestles with the themes of fate and morality and the lack of both.
00:40 --> 00:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, monsters with bad haircuts.
00:43 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_00]: With me to discuss this film as always is Dr. Anthony LaDon.
00:48 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_05]: The haircut and that face?
00:53 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the strangulation scene.
00:54 --> 00:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad you sent me a clip of that.
00:56 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, my gosh.
00:57 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_05]: It just, that scene is like most of that scene you don't see his face.
01:03 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_05]: And it lasts for a while.
01:06 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_05]: And I've gotten to the point where it's like, here comes face.
01:09 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Here comes a face.
01:12 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_05]: See if you're the kind of guy that recognizes slash notices the musical score of a movie.
01:20 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I would think so.
01:23 --> 01:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I reckon.
01:23 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not, I don't.
01:27 --> 01:30 [SPEAKER_05]: I will only recognize it if it's bad.
01:31 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like an empire in baseball.
01:33 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, if it's done well, it'll just kind of do what it needs to do to me emotionally.
01:42 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_05]: But I won't like notice like, oh, that's that's quite nice, sir.
01:46 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_05]: That's an interesting choice.
01:48 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I guess most of the time when I want you to move these, I don't want to notice that kind of stuff.
01:56 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_05]: But you're the kind of guy that's like, oh, that's probably John Williams or something.
02:01 --> 02:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I like to listen to, I like to, I mean, I think it's all part of it, right?
02:06 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if it's working, it's like when you enjoy like good
02:11 --> 02:11 [SPEAKER_00]: camera angles, right?
02:11 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Why wouldn't you enjoy the score?
02:14 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's the kind of thing I wouldn't notice.
02:16 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, if I'm going to assess something critically, like if I'm prepping for a podcast or something or using a scene in a writing project, I'll turn that part of my brain on, but I would prefer not to.
02:33 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_05]: I would prefer to just let it do its thing and for me to live inside of the story.
02:39 --> 02:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But what about, like, say, like a birdman where the score becomes so essential to the creating the frenetic energy?
02:45 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:48 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_05]: If it's doing what it needs to do, all that it is for me is part of my emotion.
02:54 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you don't typically enjoy music.
03:00 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_05]: That is not true.
03:03 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_05]: That is certainly not true.
03:06 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't dominate my life.
03:08 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't need a musical soundtrack to my life.
03:11 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_05]: But I guess my question is, if a musical score is working for me, I tend to not think about it very much.
03:21 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Whereas you would sort of notice it and sort of like kind of file a little way as something else that's interesting about whatever year, whatever year.
03:33 --> 03:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, and I probably
03:35 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No more famously on this podcast, discussing the music, say for like a John Carbender.
03:42 --> 03:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
03:44 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_05]: And I will notice a good needle drop, you know, a good needle drop for me is like a hey look at me moment.
03:51 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, whereas I feel like most of the time a score is sort of there to tell you what kind of mood to be in.
04:01 --> 04:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you feel that way when you're watching several?
04:06 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: or you're more in tune to the score at that point.
04:10 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_05]: When I'm into it, when I'm like, when I'm sort of like, experiencing, you want to close reading, you might notice it more than, yeah, yeah.
04:19 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_05]: If I am like in the story, if I'm experiencing that the emotions that the people in the scene are experiencing, if I'm feeling that the energy that the director wants to convey,
04:32 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't hear the music in this in that way in that all that conscious level.
04:38 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm kind of I can be I can be sometimes of not just about like like the movie there will be blood I love so much and
04:47 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: There are moments in the score where the score feels like it's got a speaking role almost.
04:53 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and I'll like stop the movie to explain to whoever I'm watching it with how great it is and they usually don't like that part.
05:02 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you're an asshole.
05:04 --> 05:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I do for sure.
05:08 --> 05:16 [SPEAKER_05]: This is not a popular opinion, but I hate the score in Lord of the Rings.
05:17 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_05]: it just feels oppressively repetitive and I just feel like they could have used it like eighty percent less and that would have increased my enjoyment or mix it up not enough slide whistle for me so to get things get whimsical so when you first watch this movie
05:48 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_05]: because you do notice the score.
05:51 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Did you notice the lack of score?
05:56 --> 05:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting because it's funny as you're talking about this.
05:58 --> 06:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, man, was I negligent.
06:04 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_00]: The music in this because I just like did like rewatched a few scenes just before we started here and it's like, yeah, it's, um, it's quiet, man.
06:13 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It is like this.
06:15 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Distressingly so right this movie this movie because like a lot of horror movies will do that right where they will drop Sound drops gore and that's usually a clue Yeah, that something like you can get ready for a jump scare kind of thing Yeah, no, so for movie this whole movie does that right the song movie is getting you ready to pee
06:37 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Frightened.
06:38 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and because it puts you in a, and it's like, and we'll get into this because I mean, there's so many, there's so many elements of this film that are antithetical to a film.
06:51 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
06:52 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how it works, right?
06:53 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I think it's, it's, it's, so I think I think this is a good jumping off.
06:57 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, one of the, one of the most remarkable things about this movie to me is that there is absolutely no musical accompaniment, except the Mary Hachi band when he.
07:11 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
07:12 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like some, but that make, that's, that's something that's happening in world like the, the main character.
07:19 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Here's that.
07:20 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, he has interactions with the musicians.
07:24 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_05]: It is what wakes him up.
07:26 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Otherwise, there's no music to tell me how I should feel.
07:33 --> 07:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm on the edge of my seat the entire time.
07:36 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Just utter confidence for a filmmaker to say like,
07:40 --> 07:42 [SPEAKER_05]: No, this is, that's enough.
07:42 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_05]: What we've, what we don't with the camera and the dialogue and the sound mixing, that's enough.
07:49 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_05]: We don't need that extra layer to like script the emotion for the audience.
07:57 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny you say like edge to the seat because like the movie does this where you're on the edge of your seat and then a moment later you'll be like, wait, was I, is there even a seat to be sat on?
08:06 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, because you're just
08:09 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fascinating how how much tension sometimes lies in the lack of it, too.
08:15 --> 08:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
08:16 --> 08:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Sure, sure.
08:16 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to play with this.
08:18 --> 08:19 [SPEAKER_05]: This is a very famous scene.
08:19 --> 08:25 [SPEAKER_05]: The reason this is in New York, where I'm from, frienddo.
08:27 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean that and by doing mean nothing, just passing a time.
08:35 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't want to accept that, I don't know what else I can do for me.
08:42 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
08:44 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Will there?
08:52 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Is something wrong with anything?
08:56 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that what you're asking me?
08:58 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there something wrong with anything?
09:01 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_01]: What would be anything else?
09:02 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_02]: You already asked me that.
09:07 --> 09:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I need to see that closing room and see about clothes.
09:11 --> 09:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, sir.
09:11 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_02]: What time do you clothes?
09:13 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we clothes now.
09:14 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not a time.
09:15 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_02]: What time do you clothes?
09:16 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Generally round dark, at dark.
09:23 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't know what you're talking about now, sir.
09:27 --> 09:30 [SPEAKER_02]: If I said, you don't know what you're talking about.
09:33 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_02]: What time do you go to bed?
09:36 --> 09:37 [SPEAKER_05]: You're a bit different.
09:38 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_05]: I said what that scene feels as scary.
09:42 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_05]: It almost feels as violent as anything else in the movie.
09:47 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
09:48 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Even back the violence for the most part, there's a couple of scenes.
09:52 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But like for the most part, the violence is so abrupt or off screen that those scenes become like they're jarring, but not nearly as as tense.
10:05 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: and unsettling as this type of scene, right?
10:08 --> 10:13 [SPEAKER_05]: This guy, the point because of the coin flip, this guy survives, right?
10:14 --> 10:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
10:15 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_05]: But I kind of feel like this guy was just as victimized as anyone else in the movie.
10:20 --> 10:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Like this is pouring this poor guy is going to think about this moment for the rest of his life.
10:29 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_05]: He's gonna have nightmares about this conversation with this ghostly crazy villainous face.
10:38 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and it makes you, because it does a couple of things.
10:43 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like almost a torture of control.
10:46 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
10:49 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_05]: But he's breaking his spirit in that man.
10:52 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, of course, of like one minute, this guy is completely subservient.
10:57 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_00]: without any physical, you know, harm being done to you.
11:02 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I could see you for the rest of your life with sort of a PTSD of just the idea that like, wait, you mean, this could happen for no reason and this is the point, right?
11:12 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this, this is like this scene, I think encapsulates everything that this movie is about or, you know, and the Tommy Lee Jones character is wrestling with and the idea that
11:26 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_00]: that there is no rhyme or reason to good.
11:32 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: There is no rhyme or reason to bad.
11:35 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And the idea that you come and that you come face to face with it.
11:38 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like until you like you go through life.
11:42 --> 11:44 [SPEAKER_00]: You're the main character of your own life.
11:45 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a problem.
11:45 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you.
11:46 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a footnote in his story.
11:48 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:55 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And and then that becomes a bigger concept of just this idea of like we we you know whether you have a religious background or or you know you just sort of you know you kind of understand the concept of just film or or novels whatever it may be.
12:13 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: We kind of all just embrace this idea whether it's a higher power or just some sort of notion of order.
12:20 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_00]: that everything is kind of makes sense and I get to be a part of this and I have agency.
12:25 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And, but then the problem is if you drop a world full of people with agency, agency becomes very muddy.
12:35 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we're still now at each other's whims to so to speak.
12:39 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And when somebody steps out of the rule, and we hear that when he says, the rule brought you here, what good is the rule?
12:46 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's another way to kind of sum up this whole idea of like, what's the point?
12:52 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is this, like, that's kind of like the, the sad moral of the story as we jump to the, you know, one to grow on is just what's the point?
13:01 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably not.
13:05 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's something, well, to wrap up the music conversation.
13:09 --> 13:12 [SPEAKER_05]: I just think it's amazing that that scene has no music.
13:13 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, the whole movie basically has no music.
13:17 --> 13:23 [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, even just playing that clip for you, I, I feel on edge, you know?
13:24 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:24 --> 13:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, for sure.
13:25 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's just that voice, you know, never mind the face, but the voice itself,
13:33 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_05]: And just the complete mastery over someone else's will, it feels like torture.
13:41 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_05]: It feels like torture to hear that guy in that conversation.
13:46 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and what happens is a lot of times in movies, if you have a scene like that, and there is no music, because it's not completely a typical, a scene like that wouldn't have music, but then there would be music following.
14:00 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_00]: This will give you relief or some sort of a sense of what's going to happen next or how to transition to it's seen that but because it doesn't you're like, is he going to go back?
14:12 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is this like is he just going to come back later and that's the thing is I couldn't rest even if he left I'm like, well, how did I know how do I know that guy is going to be like,
14:19 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: the coin flip.
14:22 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I do want to talk about the concept of the coin flip and fate and agency and all that.
14:29 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Before that, I want to make a bold claim about this movie.
14:35 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I see what you think about this.
14:37 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is the best Western that isn't an anti-Western.
14:45 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't think it's an anti-Western.
14:47 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it's an anti-western.
14:49 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_05]: I think the sheriff is basically a good guy.
14:55 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_05]: He wears a white hat.
14:56 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_05]: He writes around looking for a guy where dressed in black.
15:01 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Who's evil?
15:02 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, where's the anti-Western part of that?
15:04 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it doesn't end.
15:05 --> 15:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell you exactly where the anti-Western part of it.
15:08 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Do they ever encounter each other?
15:11 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_05]: That that's a good question.
15:13 --> 15:14 [SPEAKER_05]: It's possible.
15:15 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible.
15:17 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the important thing, the reason why I take this is an anti-Western and is
15:21 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: is that it's, I feel like it's intentionally creating Western tropes to disassemble them.
15:27 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the end for certain departs from not just Westerns, but most movies.
15:34 --> 15:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Most movies do not end the way that this ends.
15:38 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've talked about Westerns in terms of sort of this Americana notion, right?
15:42 --> 15:50 [SPEAKER_00]: This idea that, you know, we almost associate cowboys as much as we associate the founding fathers.
15:51 --> 15:55 [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of how this country is established.
15:56 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And while, you know, certain westerns look at the sort of the corrupt underbelly of sort of the wild west, that the end of the day, we feel like we know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.
16:08 --> 16:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Luellen complicates this pretty dramatically, because Luellen is, so interestingly, so you have like an antantragure who sort of presents this
16:22 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_00]: a moral character.
16:24 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but you can make the argument that Lou Ellen sort of falls in the same category.
16:28 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Like he may be.
16:31 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to do good against a worse guy.
16:34 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not, I mean, his intentions and his, his, his, he moves things in such a way where everybody around is in jeopardy, right?
16:43 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think Lou Ellen Moss.
16:45 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_05]: is the main character of the story.
16:47 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that no, but he's a central figure.
16:50 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_05]: He's central figure, to illustrate a point, the story begins with the voice of her by Tommy Lee, and it ends with a little monologue by him.
17:00 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think the story does have a good guy and a bad guy.
17:05 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_05]: It also has a guy in between.
17:08 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_05]: It does play with the idea of a heroic past, which Westerns will do.
17:15 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, insert, I don't think it does.
17:18 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it romanticizes a notion of a historic past.
17:24 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's different characters in this movie with different takes on this.
17:28 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think for Muslims, I think they're wrestling with this idea.
17:31 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's right.
17:32 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the thing is is that it's a,
17:36 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_00]: it's a reckoning of sorts.
17:38 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like that.
17:42 --> 18:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, so I think in a way, you've created a modern, in the sense that it's a Western, yes, but in the sense that I think it's yes and and I think that that might actually go quite into the theme of this entire film, which is like, yep, it is those and it isn't at the same time.
18:00 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like there's a lot of that, right?
18:02 --> 18:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's the idea of fate and then also the illusion of fate.
18:06 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_00]: the idea of a romanticized past and the idea that it is just a romanticized past and it might not have ever been to this when you say there's a good guy in a bad guy I would argue that there is a guy who is good in the sense that he is
18:24 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: working on the side of justice in so much as there is justice in America or the however you want to look at it.
18:31 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_05]: I think Tommy Lee Jones in this movie is about as good as a sheriff you're ever going to meet on the silver screen.
18:41 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I guess he's good.
18:43 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, he's also.
18:44 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_05]: He's a one hundred percent.
18:46 --> 18:48 [SPEAKER_05]: He's one hundred percent protagonist.
18:50 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, is there anything he does in this movie that makes you think?
18:53 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's a little bit morally gray.
18:55 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_00]: No, but I also don't think we see a bunch of them.
18:58 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Moreover, is Antonia Gurth the most villainous person we've ever met on, it's possible that he's.
19:06 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and that's what I, and that's I think what I want to get at is why I also
19:10 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: say it breaks the western trope there's a good guys and there's bad guys and westerns this guy's pure evil right and I'm right maybe even so much to the point where there's almost like there is no this the a morality is is is is larger than the immorality and that creates a different type of villain
19:30 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And where is most westerns?
19:32 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know what the bad guys motivations are.
19:35 --> 19:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's usually he wants to rob.
19:37 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_00]: He wants the money.
19:38 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_00]: He wants one of this house of that.
19:40 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:41 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And with Anton Chagur, it's just he is just like I said, he operates with with no clear you can't anticipate his moves because there's no clear motivation for it, right?
19:56 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And so
19:58 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So he certainly has a code.
19:59 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_05]: He certainly has a code.
20:02 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that he views himself in an amoral way.
20:05 --> 20:06 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if that makes him immoral.
20:07 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think he feels like I'm an instrument of fate in the same way that the coin is an instrument of fate.
20:15 --> 20:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And so it's not really on me to decide whether these people live or die.
20:22 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just the way fate works.
20:26 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm just happy to be the guy who's the right tool for this.
20:30 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think from everyone else's perspective in the movie and in my perspective as a viewer, it's not a moral.
20:37 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_05]: That guy's evil is fuck.
20:39 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, sure.
20:39 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, for sure.
20:40 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I agree, because I'm just talking about it from a Western versus anti-Western perspective is that also he doesn't wear a hat.
20:50 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I also think that's important.
20:52 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_00]: because he's not the villain in the black hat.
20:54 --> 20:55 [SPEAKER_05]: You had that hair.
20:55 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_05]: I had Joey Lawrence hair from Guinea a break.
20:59 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would probably tuck that under the biggest hat I could find.
21:04 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_05]: I want you to know that after watching the movie this time, I thought I could pull it off for all the way.
21:10 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_05]: If I had the right wig, I could absolutely go with it and don't you care.
21:18 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, let me ask you this.
21:20 --> 21:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess also, too, with the anti-Western concept, well, yes, Tommy Lee Jones and Navier Bardem are sort of your good and versus bad.
21:27 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And you just like said, Josh Rollins, the well, and is kind of just a side character in a Western, the guy who finds the money and who has the wife to protect.
21:36 --> 21:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're all sure.
21:38 --> 21:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, and so they do deconstruct that very carefully in the sense that it's like, well,
21:45 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just how it goes.
21:46 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, let me ask you this.
21:48 --> 21:55 [SPEAKER_05]: So the umbrella of Western would anti-Western fall underneath that umbrella.
21:55 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Is an anti-Western a Western?
21:57 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, by definition, you know, is it a subset of the Western genre?
22:02 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't have an anti-Western if you don't have a Western concept.
22:06 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
22:07 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that might be this might be kind of a splitting hairstyles situation because I do agree that like
22:14 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It follows, because it's actually the first thing I wrote down in my notes was, is this a Western?
22:20 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, good.
22:20 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to ask that question.
22:22 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I was, I didn't even write it down.
22:24 --> 22:26 [SPEAKER_05]: It occurred to me, oh, this is a Western.
22:27 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't matter that the cowboys are in cars most of the time.
22:30 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_05]: This is certainly a Western.
22:32 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I thought, is this the best Western?
22:37 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I thought, it's interesting that this takes place in a lot of hotels.
22:43 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_05]: That was a little joke for you.
22:45 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I appreciate that.
22:47 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'd like to introduce our new sponsor, Beth.
22:51 --> 22:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Best Western hotels.
22:54 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_05]: I was thinking, this is the best Western ever made.
22:57 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I thought, I mean, Bush and Sundance is on my top ten.
23:03 --> 23:05 [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of Westerns out there.
23:06 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Then I thought,
23:07 --> 23:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Butch and sentant is so clearly an anti-western in so many different ways.
23:14 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe that's too bold of a statement, but then is this even an anti-western?
23:20 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Isn't this just a straight, good guy versus bad guy, Western?
23:25 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, aside from sort of the anti-climax of this all and
23:32 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_05]: It feels more like, it feels, it feels like it leaves closer to Western than it does anti-Western.
23:41 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, maybe that's just, like you said, maybe that just splitting hairs.
23:46 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think also it's the evolution of the Western genre is sort of caught up in all of this too, because you start looking at certain things that, you know, if we paint with the brush of the old tiny,
24:01 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Westerns like a John Wayne type thing.
24:02 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's interesting that we would kind of hold that up as the baseline, but we don't do that necessarily with other genres and maybe that's an age thing.
24:13 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's an age thing.
24:16 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think the unforgiving was one of the first Westerns I ever saw and it happens to be one of the most famous anti-Westerns.
24:26 --> 24:30 [SPEAKER_05]: You are not a fan of Westerns generally.
24:32 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen quite a few, but like I didn't watch any.
24:35 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I guess I've seen like like Shane, you know, I guess if we're looking back at some of the older.
24:40 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that I watched Shane like in a classroom at one point.
24:45 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was gifted Shane.
24:46 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, from a brother-in-law who loved it.
24:50 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I watched it and thought, okay.
24:55 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I most of my, like,
24:58 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_00]: probably even just like name them all off.
25:00 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you're looking at the young guns, movies, and like you said, unforgiven, hell or high water, uh, three, ten to you, mother remake.
25:11 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, God, there's a few others that come to mind and then questions, things like, you know, do Westerns have to take place in a certain timeframe, right?
25:19 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's another question.
25:20 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, it's important to ask or it's just if there's God boy hats, it becomes a Western.
25:25 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Um,
25:27 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_05]: because this is takes place what, in the late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late late
25:51 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Oral historians have this concept of living memory, and it usually lasts about three generations.
25:57 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_05]: It's that you could have heard something from your grandfather who lived during the time of the event.
26:06 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_05]: After that, if you want to learn about that period, you've got to read something, or you've got to hear a story from a guy who heard a story, these things get passed down.
26:17 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_05]: In nineteen eighty you've got a character and it's the guy the guy you meet at the end uncle Ellis who's in a wheelchair who can recount an event that happened in nineteen oh nine which is you know sort of the end of the butchens on the answer and so i think it's interesting that nineteen eighty is chosen here because
26:44 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_05]: It really allows the Tommy Lean Jones character to compare himself with what he calls the old timers.
26:53 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_05]: There's still this oral tradition that's circulating about how the old share of some of them didn't even have guns and what it was like back when the heroic past
27:05 --> 27:07 [SPEAKER_05]: where our relatives walking around.
27:07 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_05]: And that is about to die.
27:10 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_05]: That all of that living memory is about to die with that last generation.
27:17 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's almost like, okay, now you're on a cusp.
27:21 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, butch and Sundance died in, you know, in a day, no eight.
27:25 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And so they died that one time.
27:27 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But they also die again when there's no one around.
27:33 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_05]: that sort of carries that story and their living memory.
27:34 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think, in the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of the late of
27:56 --> 28:03 [SPEAKER_05]: But Tommy Lee Jones is in this weird bridge place where he can see what's on the horizon.
28:03 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_05]: He can see a future that looks totally alien to him.
28:09 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_05]: And yet he's carrying these family stories of what the Old West was like.
28:16 --> 28:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think he starts to feel like, I've got more in common with my dead dad than I do with with the youth of the next generation.
28:25 --> 28:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
28:27 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he wakes up.
28:31 --> 28:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, because that isn't a just in way to end it, right?
28:33 --> 28:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So the question is when he wakes up, is it because the dream, the dream is dead?
28:39 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_00]: What he's like, and by dream, not just the dream he had, but sort of the dream that he had.
28:44 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so
28:45 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_00]: for where the world was headed or what it was, or did he wake up?
28:50 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Cause it, is that like a, and then I came to reality that was like, you know, none of that's real.
28:55 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_05]: And so the dream was, it's interesting.
28:59 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: The father was like, kind of making a pattern, right?
29:01 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there would be a safety, yeah, yeah, a comfort that that would be like, hey, he's paved the way.
29:07 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, turns out he didn't pave the way.
29:10 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So I read it, I've read it multiple ways.
29:14 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_00]: the most recent one was just sort of the drawing like, then I woke up like mostly like, hey, you know what, I had a fantasy and then I just woke up and reality, reality was too real to to cling to this other notion anymore.
29:27 --> 29:41 [SPEAKER_00]: My father was the younger man in this particular scenario because he's kind of like all suggesting he's like, I've outgrown not only the age of my father, but I may be I've outgrown the fantasy of the world that my father lived in.
29:42 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_05]: that's interesting so that he has two dreams the first is that and he remembers this one very vaguely he thinks I was in town my father was younger man and he gave me some money and I misplaced it which is interesting because I think that there is something about a sort of the the corrosive nature of money in this film that's a theme
30:07 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Secondly, he's got this dream of his father who's making like you said, making a way for him into the mountain, who's carrying fire in a horn, who's going to end up creating a trailfire down the road.
30:23 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And it could be viewed as kind of comforting.
30:27 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Like his father's, it's waiting for him on the other side.
30:31 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think that that's always how I've read it.
30:34 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I've got more in common with my dad.
30:37 --> 30:41 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm clearly, I clearly don't belong in this world anymore.
30:42 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_05]: But when I go beyond, you know, when I, when I move on to the next life, I'll be more at home with my dead father.
30:53 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_05]: But the way that you're reading this,
30:57 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And it very well could be the that's the moral of the story is that it was just a dream you he woke up is not real what is what is the value of dwelling on this thing that's total fantasy well I think the dream is comforting in so much that it's a dream and that's where the comfort of his always lied in the dream in the fantasy in the romance and
31:25 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_00]: in a movie where there's no music, in a movie where there's nothing but tension in a movie where there seems to be no order.
31:33 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is, you can't pay it away in a world like that.
31:40 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't find comfort in a world with no reason.
31:47 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Either the world became this way and it was something else at one time and then now evil was invented in a new way.
31:56 --> 31:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Or it always was.
31:58 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're insulated from it, if you've never had to run into Anton Sugar and his coin flip, you might hear the music of the soundtrack of your life or your the stock.
32:12 --> 32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But until you run into it, you realize, well, maybe that's always existed.
32:18 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And if it's always existed, then where were those rules?
32:22 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Where was the order?
32:25 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_00]: The order that I used to hang my hat on, the path that was was laid, it could be interrupted at any moment, as long as there's an Anton sugar figure in this world.
32:36 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't find that as, I don't find necessarily this movie saying that that's a new invention.
32:42 --> 32:46 [SPEAKER_05]: No, I think that's an open conversation that the movie's having.
32:47 --> 32:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you feel that way?
32:48 --> 32:50 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so let me ask you this.
32:52 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_05]: I've always been of the mind that the old people lamenting the depravity of the next generation is folly.
33:02 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, all people have always been complaining about how the next generation sucks.
33:09 --> 33:11 [SPEAKER_05]: That is all this time, right?
33:11 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
33:13 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm looking down the barrel of fifty now, you know?
33:17 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, I'm getting to be that stage of life.
33:21 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_05]: and a little bit of it is creeping in.
33:24 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_05]: There's just a little bit of it that feels like, no, they kind of suck.
33:28 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_05]: And it was, boy, life was better back in nineteen eighty.
33:33 --> 33:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, there's a little bit of me.
33:35 --> 33:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Not a lot of me, but there's a little bit of me that sees the virtue in that view.
33:42 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm kind of, we're about the same age.
33:44 --> 33:45 [SPEAKER_05]: How do you view this?
33:47 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think life was better.
33:52 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_00]: nineteen eighty seven four me because I was younger and I wasn't old and I wasn't so were all the time and I wasn't falling you know chasing my own personal relevancy I didn't know any better so this is I think this is why part of why I think generation gaps do this is because we do look back
34:19 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But we look back and go, I had a better time, or this was better for me.
34:24 --> 34:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we go ahead and we just say, and because I'm the star of my show, because I'm the center of my universe.
34:30 --> 34:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
34:31 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I can speak now and say that life was better than, and that means that these people are worse.
34:38 --> 34:42 [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is humans have always been disappointing.
34:44 --> 34:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Alright, I think you're right.
34:47 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's ninety-nine percent of me that agrees with you.
34:51 --> 34:54 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna just play Devil's Advocate for a moment.
34:55 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm looking at my son and the kind of asshole that he's been influenced by online.
35:02 --> 35:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Thought in that he needs to do a certain amount of kettlebell lifts and
35:08 --> 35:24 [SPEAKER_05]: become a billionaire before he's thirty-year-old die poor and just just the amount you know what we may have fricking measles and polio back in the world.
35:25 --> 35:28 [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, they're just little things like that.
35:28 --> 35:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, little things like play.
35:30 --> 35:42 [SPEAKER_05]: There's just little things like polio that make me think like, you know what, if only we could return to the United States seven, my son would have a much better life.
35:42 --> 35:46 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's a tiny bit of me that it's starting to buy that narrative.
35:47 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess my, my counter to that is, this isn't a people problem.
35:53 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a new people.
35:54 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is where I'm going to go back to drawing this to the movie.
35:57 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have like, I don't believe the movies telling us that the Anton Shagur is of the world or a new problem in nineteen eighty and they weren't a problem in the old time you asked.
36:09 --> 36:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think what it's saying is that they were there.
36:10 --> 36:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We just didn't encounter them.
36:12 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_00]: The internet shows us the Anton Shagur is everywhere.
36:18 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so what ends up happening is
36:21 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_00]: the musical soundtrack of our lives starts to dim because we start to run into these characters and these these people and they have a platform in a way that they don't have to travel to to intimidate you.
36:33 --> 36:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You just have to log on.
36:36 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think that this movie was made in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in
36:50 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Access is the issue I don't think it's and so obviously that in and it's like before me TV was the problem right TV was the problem.
37:00 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Because now the sudden you know we're all stuck to the TV and then oh now we know about bad news all over the world and a little more real time than the internet comes along we know bad news before even happens and
37:11 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so access and information.
37:14 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, according to my parents, according to my parents, three's company was going to teach me that free love is a legitimate lifestyle.
37:24 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Even if I was going to live in LA with two women, it was going to corrupt me in some way.
37:31 --> 37:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It gave you the opportunity.
37:32 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It invited you to a world you didn't even know you had the opportunity, right?
37:35 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Or cheers was going to tell me that hanging out in a bar could be a legitimate path in life.
37:42 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
37:43 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_05]: You're right.
37:43 --> 37:51 [SPEAKER_05]: You're right in that the conversations about what's going to corrupt the youth are always the same.
37:52 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_05]: But the content is evolving.
37:56 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
37:57 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, but here's the thing.
37:58 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where the generation gaps become a problem.
38:01 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_00]: is that we take our nineteen ninety four sensibilities and we try to cram it onto our twenty twenty five living children and so we say they're not there's a disconnect yeah it's there is a disconnect because we we we don't evolve with it and so
38:28 --> 38:32 [SPEAKER_00]: This matter of just trying to relate and understand because we have to evolve with it.
38:32 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you do want to be able to protect your kids or you do want to be able to give them advice.
38:36 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you give them advice that's thirty years old, it doesn't make any sense.
38:40 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_05]: That's how I got, man.
38:42 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's what I'm saying.
38:44 --> 38:45 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I'm working with.
38:45 --> 38:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And that, but that's the generation gap because we now are like nobody, you know, like
38:52 --> 39:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I can remember all of the things that like we're said to me that I made it easy for me to just check out from my parents so-called knowledge because I'm like, well, that's not the world that I'm living in.
39:03 --> 39:06 [SPEAKER_00]: The world you're talking about is not the world that I'm about to embark on.
39:06 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we live that world and we've focused on it and then a new world shows up and we're like, wait a minute.
39:12 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_05]: So in most of this movie, Tommy Lee Jones is under the impression that he's dealing with a new kind of evil.
39:22 --> 39:23 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's overmatched.
39:24 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's thinking about retiring because he's just thinking, I don't know if I have it in me to go all in in this fight.
39:36 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that there will be some kind of hazard to my soul if I'm going to try to fight this new evil.
39:43 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_05]: And then toward the end, he meets his uncle Ellis.
39:47 --> 39:48 [SPEAKER_05]: And this is what Ellis says.
39:49 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_03]: What you got ain't nothing new.
39:53 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_03]: This country's hard on people.
39:59 --> 40:00 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't stop what's coming.
40:03 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_03]: They know a way to know new.
40:08 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_05]: That's vanity.
40:09 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_05]: That's vanity, which is kind of what you've been arguing.
40:13 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_05]: So you've been taking this view that's like, well, yeah, if you're vain enough to think that you're the main character,
40:22 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Then the world's not gonna, the world's gonna seem out of joint when you get to be older and the next generation takes over.
40:34 --> 40:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And what Uncle Ella says is, is like, that's kind of vanity, man.
40:38 --> 40:45 [SPEAKER_05]: There really is nothing new, which I think is not so subtle echo of ecclesiasties.
40:46 --> 40:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Totally.
40:47 --> 40:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
40:48 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And so if there's nothing new under the sun, there's no such thing as a new evil.
40:54 --> 41:02 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just that you kind of change your perspective and realize that the world is different than what you always thought it was.
41:03 --> 41:22 [SPEAKER_05]: But to me, it's interesting that they're having this conversation because I don't know if Tommy Lee Joseph's character is convinced by this, which means that I kind of feel like the dream conversation at the end is kind of ambiguous.
41:23 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think Uncle Elsa's voice is kind of the voice of the co-in brothers in this movie.
41:28 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, they view it in that way.
41:32 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if it's convincing to Tommy Lee Jones.
41:36 --> 41:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think that that's the important part of the ending.
41:38 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This is how why I'm now stuck on the, and I woke up read.
41:42 --> 41:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he is necessarily saying, and I woke up to the reality that this was just a dream.
41:48 --> 41:55 [SPEAKER_00]: But I believe he says, I woke up the movie ends abruptly at that moment because like that's that's it.
41:55 --> 41:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's like
41:58 --> 42:04 [SPEAKER_00]: whether or not he makes that connection, like he's just talking, like, because the dreams don't matter much.
42:04 --> 42:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it was the other thing he kind of said, like, dreams only kind of matter to the person that they're intending to be about, right?
42:12 --> 42:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that sort of goes with that same idea that says, hey, let's start the show.
42:16 --> 42:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a star of my own dream.
42:17 --> 42:21 [SPEAKER_00]: My dreaming not necessarily sounded interesting to you because it's my dream and it was right.
42:21 --> 42:24 [SPEAKER_05]: It's always interesting to the one who's experiencing it.
42:25 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_00]: right and so so he tells it and then he'll walk up and then like the way that the movie ends to some I mean like it's a very abrupt ending that almost just goes to say and right and now this part of is over what's next is and it's a very unsettling and and like for me this like I said the moral of the story is it's like there is no more and I'm not sure about that let me ask you this do you think um
42:53 --> 42:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that Anton Shiger is supernatural in some way in this movie?
43:02 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I will say he is, whether or not he's intended to be sort of like the character in Raisin Arizona.
43:12 --> 43:13 [SPEAKER_06]: He was horrible.
43:16 --> 43:17 [SPEAKER_06]: A lone bike or the apocalypse.
43:20 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_06]: A man with all the powers that hail, it is command.
43:25 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_06]: You can turn the day the night.
43:28 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_06]: I laid the waste to everything in his pay.
43:31 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say that.
43:36 --> 43:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where maybe the anti-Western Western conversation come in handy is that like we say there's a good guy that's a bad guy.
43:42 --> 43:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Anti-Sugar is a terrifying individual, but he's a more terrifying idea.
43:50 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's Batman.
43:51 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Well,
43:54 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_00]: He kind of, because he usher's in for all the people that he's encountered, especially the older folks, right?
43:59 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, I think watch who he interacts with and how that control works.
44:05 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the difference in maybe when he talks to the younger folks and the way that they sort of negotiate or try to negotiate, but they're trying to explain through like a reason and rationality.
44:17 --> 44:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't get that necessarily on the older side, at least with this encounter in the gas station.
44:24 --> 44:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You have this, it's in a front, this idea that this person can be like this, it doesn't follow the rules, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't compute.
44:36 --> 44:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And like we said, he leaves, you may have survived, but now you're introduced to a concept of villainy that really wasn't on your radar, because it doesn't follow any rules.
44:48 --> 44:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And if it doesn't follow any rules, then now you have a bigger issue.
44:52 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_00]: What are the rules?
44:53 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_00]: would they ever any good?
44:55 --> 45:07 [SPEAKER_00]: What if I lived my life or so that's these become the existential questions that can start to flow out of some out of an encounter with an antonchegur and when you have a timely Jones character it's like look
45:08 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm under the impression you will go, and you will find a bad guy, and you will find his motivations, and you will beat him off the pass, and then you will arrest him, and then justice will be served.
45:19 --> 45:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But if that's not an option for some of these villains, and some of the evil that's out there, what am I doing?
45:27 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_00]: What has any of this been about?
45:29 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the kind of place where you can end up.
45:32 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if Anton Sugar is supernatural, even if he's not
45:37 --> 45:40 [SPEAKER_00]: physically and it's supernatural person in this movie.
45:40 --> 45:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He's a supernatural concept for especially for this generation.
45:45 --> 45:49 [SPEAKER_05]: So this week I decided to read no country for the first time.
45:50 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And so, you know, famous quormic McCarthy novel, typically upbeat author.
45:57 --> 45:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
45:58 --> 46:03 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I moved through the book pretty quickly, so I guess I should say that I enjoyed it.
46:04 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if his style is my favorite.
46:08 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But when I read the book, I never got the sense that Anton Chiger was like supernatural in any way.
46:15 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_05]: But he is called a prophet of destruction in the book, so that's interesting.
46:22 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And he does sort of represent kind of like,
46:27 --> 46:35 [SPEAKER_05]: the kind of new evil that someone like Tom Ed is going to feel overmatched by.
46:35 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I do think that the Cohen brothers like to pepper it a little bit of supernatural in them.
46:42 --> 46:46 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that is probably departure from the book.
46:47 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_05]: There's a couple scenes that happen in hotels where it creates this tension
46:55 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_05]: by sort of wrong footing the viewer, like either you think he's going into a room that he's not going into.
47:04 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_05]: Or the timeline is messed up in a way, but the way that the scenes are cut together, it creates a sense of menace.
47:12 --> 47:16 [SPEAKER_05]: So you got that first hotel scene where it's like,
47:17 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, can I get the money out when I know that that guy's in the room across the way?
47:23 --> 47:33 [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, anti-drigger is gonna come in and he's gonna blow every one away, but you realize, oh, he's going in the wrong room and he ends up killing these other hitmen.
47:35 --> 47:42 [SPEAKER_05]: So you've got that and then you've got a couple other hotel scenes, but you've got the one near the end.
47:43 --> 47:51 [SPEAKER_05]: where you're not sure is he behind the door at the same time that Tommy Lee Jones is going into the hotel room at the crime scene.
47:53 --> 47:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And he goes in the room and he's just gone.
47:57 --> 48:01 [SPEAKER_05]: He goes to the window, the windows latched, so he didn't go out the window.
48:02 --> 48:13 [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe he just vanished, or maybe that scene was cut in a way where it was sort of like inside the hotel is happening at the different time than what's going on outside of the hotel.
48:14 --> 48:25 [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think about this and it makes me wonder like, do you think Anton Sugar was behind the door when Tommy Lee Jones was going into the hotel room?
48:28 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it matters.
48:30 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but how did you re-how did you experience it the first time?
48:34 --> 48:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I the first time I I thought he was so you thought he was and then he was gone and then what did you think like did you think?
48:41 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Dude that just that guy opened that show you think oh, they tricked me again.
48:45 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I then more on the I think they tricked me again.
48:49 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's how I felt to
48:51 --> 48:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:52 --> 48:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I also think, yeah, and I think the movie does so much to just like, it is disorienting.
48:58 --> 49:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And so much so that, I mean, yeah, we look back and we've seen this movie several times and we say, yeah, Lou Ellen is just a sort of an ancillary character.
49:07 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, but that's not how the movie is structured.
49:10 --> 49:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And the movie is structured.
49:12 --> 49:19 [SPEAKER_00]: The way that the co-in brothers decide to structure this movie is part of the, is part of the framing of this piece of art, right?
49:19 --> 49:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
49:20 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_00]: it's and you you were focused on a well and he is the star of this movie at the same way we think we're the star of our own movies and then he's just sort of dismissed very uh anti climatically yeah we don't even see it happen it happens and he's just a he's he's just as much a body that is found as the bodies he found that started his whole adventure that's right and
49:50 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's it.
49:51 --> 49:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I even, I don't know how many times Heather and I have seen this movie.
49:55 --> 49:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was just like, dead.
50:00 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And because, and I think that they're doing this all because like, this is the story I believe they're trying to tell and they decide to tell it in such a way that you go, well, that how does like he just dead?
50:11 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I even invested all this energy to see what's going to happen.
50:14 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's just, you don't even show him die.
50:18 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like, and then you realize, ah, that's exactly what this movie's telling me.
50:22 --> 50:27 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the world we live in, from a certain point of view, right?
50:27 --> 50:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if, I mean, yeah, you're the star of your own show, but you might be the only one watching it.
50:36 --> 50:46 [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay, he dies in a way that is, like, the filmmakers don't even capitalize on the drama of his death.
50:47 --> 50:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's just filmmaking malpractice, right?
50:53 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like dude, you're rooting for this guy at this point.
50:59 --> 51:00 [SPEAKER_05]: You need him to protect his wife.
51:00 --> 51:02 [SPEAKER_05]: You need this to happen.
51:03 --> 51:11 [SPEAKER_05]: If you're gonna kill him, then you better squeeze as much emotionality after that death as you can, right?
51:12 --> 51:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
51:14 --> 51:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Both core of McCarthy and the core brothers are like, no.
51:19 --> 51:21 [SPEAKER_05]: No, we're gonna do a different.
51:22 --> 51:24 [SPEAKER_05]: And we know that this is not how it's normally done.
51:25 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_05]: And we think what this will work, just fine.
51:29 --> 51:34 [SPEAKER_05]: And because of that, it just, it's more jarring than anything else.
51:35 --> 51:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Because you're, you're sort of real in with, wait, did I see, did I wait?
51:39 --> 51:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Did I fall asleep for ten minutes?
51:40 --> 51:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, what have I missed?
51:43 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Wait a second, now I'm in my head for the next ten minutes, just thinking, wait, they couldn't have just really done that, right?
51:50 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's almost like the non-violence or the non-climax is more memorable because we've been trained to think of a Western in a particular way.
52:04 --> 52:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
52:05 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And then again, like you become, because you're like, okay, well, you know, movie rules.
52:12 --> 52:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Movie rules are that, okay, if you haven't dead, you're going to show me that.
52:16 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to still show me.
52:18 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_00]: in a flashback or a discussion or maybe in an interrogation scene.
52:22 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And when none of that happens, you'd go back to, what good are the rules of the rules brought you here?
52:28 --> 52:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, these rules, the movie breaks rules, the movie breaks Western rules to tell us that the Western romance is falling.
52:38 --> 52:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's what it's doing.
52:40 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So it has to be, you know, again, a Western could be an anti-Western
52:47 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_00]: because you need to compare it to something.
52:50 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's too many rules that are starting to be established that are broken so dramatically, that to me, really, the dream he has and they're the waking up of the dream is also part of the anti-Western, right?
53:05 --> 53:06 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all part of this.
53:07 --> 53:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the world may have white hats and black hats, but those are just hats.
53:17 --> 53:22 [SPEAKER_05]: One of my favorite parts of this movie is, and it happens after that cling flip scene.
53:23 --> 53:28 [SPEAKER_05]: When Anton Sugar goes into the property manager's office,
53:30 --> 53:33 [SPEAKER_05]: And she's like, we aren't allowed to give out information.
53:33 --> 53:40 [SPEAKER_05]: He's just like, it's like he runs into a brick wall.
53:40 --> 53:45 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, even the profit of destruction cannot overcome red tape.
53:47 --> 53:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
53:47 --> 53:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
53:48 --> 53:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I just think that's a fantastic, beautiful, and I do not remember that in the, in the book.
53:55 --> 53:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I could have messed it, but I think that that was a code brother's edition.
54:00 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_05]: really, really funny scene and sort of add and also, you know, Tommy Lee Jones, all of his interactions with his sort of pumpkin deputy, like legitimately funny.
54:14 --> 54:15 [SPEAKER_05]: legitimately funny.
54:15 --> 54:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And oh, yeah.
54:16 --> 54:19 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not, you know, I don't worship cowboys or whatever.
54:20 --> 54:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I've got no affinity with the old West or whatever.
54:23 --> 54:29 [SPEAKER_05]: But there's just something about Tommy Lee Jones' voice that just makes me want to talk and walk like him.
54:29 --> 54:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
54:31 --> 54:31 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like that.
54:32 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I just, there's just something about that that's mesmerizing.
54:37 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think the idea that
54:40 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_00]: that he's just he carries himself as somebody who's just kind of tired and over it like I relate to that in a way that I didn't use it.
54:48 --> 54:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably I don't.
54:49 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I love things.
54:52 --> 54:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that the the the yeah, when he's with the deputies, he's talking about the couple in California.
54:59 --> 55:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's talking about how, you know, they were just, you know, bringing these old folks and kill them for their social security more, but they tortured her, you know, and then
55:10 --> 55:30 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't know why, you know, he's explaining the story and he talks about his like wasn't until, you know, so one of the guys was running naked with nothing but a dog collar on that the neighbors decided to play and he says, and that's something, you know, that's what it took to get him to pay attention, not all digging graves in the backyard and then like the deputy kind of laughs.
55:31 --> 55:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's okay.
55:34 --> 55:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, laughs sometimes or two.
55:37 --> 55:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And but it's like it's like that that sequence is just like it's it's you're seeing a man just sort of just and rest trying to wrestle with the idea like well that doesn't make any sense.
55:48 --> 55:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like why and he says you know why why is it where are the tortures like he said he says maybe it was that there's nothing on TV.
55:56 --> 56:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's an interesting moment like you had our little conversation about you know like like perception of television.
56:04 --> 56:15 [SPEAKER_00]: uh... and here is nineteen eighty and for him to say that kind of feels pretty authentic in this idea that like kind of blame a TV you know or you know bringing it to to light that you know
56:16 --> 56:20 [SPEAKER_00]: that's kind of the dumbing down of humanity to some degree, like it's kind of baked in there.
56:20 --> 56:30 [SPEAKER_05]: He's trying to make sense of the world, and I think that he just can't help but say it in an interesting or funny way, just because that's who he is.
56:30 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_05]: I also like when he says, oh, that's all right.
56:35 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
56:36 --> 56:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's do a swim.
56:38 --> 56:41 [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, Sheriff, we just missed him.
56:43 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_06]: Look how circular like this, home radio.
56:47 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
56:49 --> 56:50 [SPEAKER_02]: The one we circulate.
56:53 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Looking for a man who recently drunk milk.
57:00 --> 57:02 [SPEAKER_05]: There's just a little things about that.
57:02 --> 57:02 [SPEAKER_05]: That's the thing.
57:02 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, maybe I. Maybe I am that old cowboy, like, way down inside.
57:08 --> 57:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if you know this, my, my grandfather, my dad's dad.
57:17 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_05]: He was a sheriff's deputy on horseback.
57:21 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_05]: He's right around Orland, California.
57:26 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_05]: He looked a lot like Tommy Lee Jones.
57:28 --> 57:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Like I could be related to Tommy Lee Jones.
57:32 --> 57:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Was there a cliche device or trope in this movie that you enjoyed?
57:35 --> 57:40 [SPEAKER_00]: The haggard sheriff and
57:41 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_00]: and the wide-eyed deputy.
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's beautiful.
57:43 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Always love that.
57:45 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that this movie does better than any other movie.
57:49 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_05]: The scene where the badass blows up the car and walks away and doesn't look at the car.
57:56 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that scene is so tropey.
58:00 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that you're so cool that you're not even gonna turn around or flinch at the explosion behind you.
58:08 --> 58:11 [SPEAKER_05]: But this works even better because it's his plan.
58:12 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_05]: He knows that ninety nine percent of the public their eyes are going to go right to the explosion and that's going to create a diversion so that I can go get the medical supplies I need.
58:26 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
58:27 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_05]: So they do that.
58:29 --> 58:32 [SPEAKER_05]: So trophy and it works so well.
58:33 --> 58:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And then they go right into something I've never seen in an action movie before.
58:39 --> 58:46 [SPEAKER_05]: He takes all of his supplies, he goes to a hotel room, lays out plastic and performs surgery on himself.
58:48 --> 58:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And that scene is as terrifying to me as any other scene in the movie.
58:57 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_05]: We just, it just reminds you, like, look, you think you're an old cowboy.
59:00 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way you're performing surgery on yourself.
59:03 --> 59:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
59:04 --> 59:07 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a very, like, it feels very terminator-ish.
59:07 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's right.
59:08 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Like when when the Terminator goes in and like is fixing himself in, you know, because then what that adds in that in Terminator is this idea that's like, oh, he's smart enough to fix himself.
59:19 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, geez, it's not even as simple as just like chewed Adam or chop him up or whatever, like as long as the brain is still moving, he will fix himself.
59:28 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that element adds sort of, you know, so it takes some of the supernaturality.
59:36 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_00]: off of Vantan sugar because it shows that there's, you know, there's weakness and then he has to do this work.
59:45 --> 59:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And, but it also shows that he can, you know, he may not be superhuman, but he's exceptional human in that regard.
59:55 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's, and that's also the, the car accident sort of establishes too, right?
01:00:01 --> 01:00:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that's an important key moment is this, he's not indestructible.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:30 [SPEAKER_00]: you know he he does it does show he's a person and he's also subject to the uh the happenstance and the random occurrence of life and while he may be in control so much as he's still kind of the star of his show until a car hits him you know I mean it's like there is an interesting moment there where uh where it doesn't
01:00:31 --> 01:00:38 [SPEAKER_00]: relieved the situation, but it's like that's probably the most hopeful moment in a movie that to me is all about the lack of it.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the good news is as bad as evil can be, evil sometimes can also get in a car accident.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:52 [SPEAKER_05]: I so that's a very co-in brothers thing to do at the end of a movie like to bring in a natural disaster.
01:00:53 --> 01:01:13 [SPEAKER_05]: or something, something that's sort of a field leveling event, whether it's a major flood or tornado or something like that to kind of remind the audience like, you've been following this story, but there's something bigger in the world that's at work that kind of reduces the story in a way.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And I just think it's a very kind of colon brothers thing to do at the end of a movie.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so in terms of like a trope, I feel that that's also a trope that I enjoy, but it is a feel specific to the colon brothers.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:34 [SPEAKER_05]: It is more like a artistic flourish I suppose.
01:01:35 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Was there a tweak you would have made to this movie to improve it?
01:01:41 --> 01:01:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I don't know, man.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty perfect.
01:01:45 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty great.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't know that there's not, I don't think there's a moment in the movie where I was like,
01:01:52 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I could have done without that or do this different, you know, I mean, it's, um, yeah.
01:01:57 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I really don't.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if for the story, it's trying to tell, I just, I don't, I, I'll put it this way.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel qualified.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_05]: So the one thing which has been solved by subtitles, but I remember the first time I saw this in a theater,
01:02:13 --> 01:02:17 [SPEAKER_05]: I remember thinking, boy, I really wanted to understand what that guy just said.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that guy's just said must have been really important, but it was like all Southern mumbling.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think the first time I, I think the first time I saw this, I thought, damn, I got to see that again with subtitles because there was a lot that I just kind of missed in the dialogue.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so I don't know if that's something that that really you can do and and continue to keep kind of the the Southern realism of this movie.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
01:02:48 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Did you watch this with subtitles?
01:02:50 --> 01:02:50 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:52 [SPEAKER_00]: You feel like you got everything?
01:02:53 --> 01:02:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are definitely moments where I was like, rewatching this.
01:02:57 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what the wait?
01:02:58 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it?
01:03:00 --> 01:03:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like I'm gonna have to do this the whole movie, but then like I feel like I call it on Sarah does not like subtitles.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:07 [SPEAKER_05]: I almost just watch everything with subtitles now.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like it because I just I can't not read it.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know like even if I know what it's being said, you know?
01:03:15 --> 01:03:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like reading.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's a I just feel like I'm now I'm the old man.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:24 [SPEAKER_05]: So when I just lean into it.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Is this movie better worse for on par with a Ron Howard?
01:03:30 --> 01:03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, yeah, this is like a run-in.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's like, it feels like it's so Cohen brother-ish.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost unfair to try to ask somebody else to do it.
01:03:44 --> 01:03:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, because we have, we're beholden to our grading system.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say it's a Howard plus eight.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I was going to say Howard plus five.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I could see like, you know, this movie came out the same year that there will be blood came out, right?
01:03:59 --> 01:04:10 [SPEAKER_05]: There's famous stories about them shooting in the same city and sort of the cast and the set sort of colliding with each other kind of interesting moments.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I could see PTA doing this, you know?
01:04:16 --> 01:04:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I could see, you know, it would be, I could see Tarantine, it would definitely feel different, right?
01:04:22 --> 01:04:25 [SPEAKER_05]: I could see someone else taking this book
01:04:26 --> 01:04:29 [SPEAKER_05]: and adapting it for television or adapting it for the screen.
01:04:30 --> 01:04:37 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that I think that the Con brothers are uniquely qualified for this particular story.
01:04:39 --> 01:04:45 [SPEAKER_05]: And some of the themes that are in the comic McCarthy book are themes that they are dealing with in their other movies anyway.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_05]: So I mean, I wouldn't change that for anything.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because like I said, I think
01:04:55 --> 01:05:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels very hopeless in many ways and I think they do hopeless fairly well.
01:05:03 --> 01:05:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And but a lot of times they do they'll treat hopelessness is sort of an absurdity.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas with this, but I think and I said that that car accident scene, I think is very effective.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: to like I said, to be the most hopeful part of the movie.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in one hand, it says, look, you know, this guy's not, you know, evil won't be stopped by a guy in a white hat.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Evil's gonna be stopped by the world that created it.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're not, but it's got as much of a fighting chance as anything else.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Is there a Kevin Bacon character that could be inserted into this movie and enhance the movie in some
01:05:45 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_00]: enhance it well let's see maybe maybe we can take the the the crooked chief from Beverly Hills cop through four as a hexafully.
01:06:00 --> 01:06:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe maybe he's working sort of with the the Woody Harrelson's Stephen Root and some way.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I like that.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_05]: I like that.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_05]: You have a cops in this movie are they're not necessarily dirty.
01:06:13 --> 01:06:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:25 [SPEAKER_05]: They're just kind of like old racists, you know, yeah, yeah, which you makes you dirty in a different way, but it is it is a sort of a departure.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:27 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, no, this is just how most cops are.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:29 [SPEAKER_05]: They're they think that they're good.
01:06:30 --> 01:06:31 [SPEAKER_05]: They might be
01:06:32 --> 01:06:37 [SPEAKER_05]: you know old, old racists who don't really understand the way the world works anymore.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:45 [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, in their world, their respected men, their, you know, their upstanding men of society.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Is there a, have to battle one to grow on moment in this film?
01:06:54 --> 01:06:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think I mentioned earlier, it's just, you know, nothing matters.
01:06:58 --> 01:06:59 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if I agree with that.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:11 [SPEAKER_05]: We don't usually take this question seriously, but I think that there's something to be said about how the sins of your father are still going to haunt you in the present.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that there's something about the Vietnam War that hangs over this.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:24 [SPEAKER_05]: These are violent men who conquered the West and they're violent men who took on the Nazis and they're violent men
01:07:25 --> 01:07:34 [SPEAKER_05]: who went to Vietnam and their violent men who are battling the forces of the drug runners.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:37 [SPEAKER_05]: And that violence doesn't go away.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:43 [SPEAKER_05]: That violence can kind of corrupt you, deep down in your DNA.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:46 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's gonna creep up on you in some way.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And so maybe this is the violent that you sowed in this soil and it's coming back to getcha.
01:07:53 --> 01:07:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's something about that in this movie.
01:07:56 --> 01:07:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And so what?
01:07:58 --> 01:08:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think also if you're because of it is an I think that there is something about like, hey, don't take the money.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:11 [SPEAKER_05]: Go get that envelope, dude.
01:08:11 --> 01:08:12 [SPEAKER_05]: That's what you came here for.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:15 [SPEAKER_05]: You didn't go out there for two million dollars.
01:08:15 --> 01:08:18 [SPEAKER_05]: He went out there for an envelope.
01:08:19 --> 01:08:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Your life and your wife would have continued if you just brought home the envelope.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it is interesting at the end when sugar
01:08:30 --> 01:08:42 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, pays the kids for the shirt and he's walking away and you think, you know, just this is, you think, sort of like, oh, karma got them, you know, that's fantastic.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_05]: The two, the two kids start fighting over the money.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, almost I'm gonna go to go into your point.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:51 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, doesn't really matter.
01:08:53 --> 01:08:55 [SPEAKER_05]: These boys started out so altruistic.
01:08:55 --> 01:08:57 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, hey, you can have my shirt for free.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_05]: As soon as you got a hundred bucks in your hand, it's like, dude, I'm out of shirt.
01:09:02 --> 01:09:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the one who's out the shirt, not you.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:12 [SPEAKER_05]: So there's something about money that's going to corrupt any kind of altruism.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:16 [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's also a moral to this story.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:19 [SPEAKER_05]: What a fantastic movie.
01:09:20 --> 01:09:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it really is.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And similarly to my experience when we re-watched, once upon a time in Hollywood, is a guy was Jones and a watch it again right after.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: This one maybe a little less so just because it's a, you know, you kind of need a smoke break.
01:09:40 --> 01:09:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:09:41 --> 01:09:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you watch something that like, when something's done so well,
01:09:48 --> 01:09:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like, that's interesting thing about like a certain art, right?
01:09:51 --> 01:09:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, how long is too long to stare at a painting you love, right?
01:09:55 --> 01:10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is, there's no, there's no time limit, you know, but you can walk away, you come back to it, you walk away, come back to it.
01:10:01 --> 01:10:04 [SPEAKER_00]: You wanted in the house because you want to see it, you know, it inspires you.
01:10:04 --> 01:10:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Something like this, it's, it's nice to be able to take little parts of it and be able to watch it and appreciate it in such a way, but it does, you do want to just kind of stare at it a little bit more.
01:10:14 --> 01:10:20 [SPEAKER_05]: So, like I said, I wanted to kind of get a new perspective on this movie which I've seen quite a bit.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:22 [SPEAKER_05]: So I read the book this week.
01:10:23 --> 01:10:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll be honest, man.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:27 [SPEAKER_05]: It's one of those rare times where the movie is just better than the book.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
01:10:29 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's all about the co-in brothers.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:36 [SPEAKER_05]: They're going to find someone who delivers a line just perfectly
01:10:37 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_05]: They're gonna bring a little bit more humor to it.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:43 [SPEAKER_05]: They're just so capable of what they're doing.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:46 [SPEAKER_05]: That it's hard not to think.
01:10:46 --> 01:10:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's just a masterpiece.
01:10:49 --> 01:10:50 [SPEAKER_05]: This is the way it should be.
01:10:50 --> 01:10:51 [SPEAKER_05]: This is the way it should have been all.
01:11:57 --> 01:12:02 [UNKNOWN]: In a cocoon of horror