BONUS - Severance S2 Wrap

[00:00:00] you'll try. Properly Howard fans, Steve and I are taking a hiatus from our hiatus to talk about Season 2 of Severance.

[00:00:28] So spoilers through the end of Season 2 and then next week we'll be back to cover Logan's run, which Steve thinks has a lot of parallels to Season 2 of Severance and I've never seen. Hey, if you'd like to hear more of Steve and I talking nonsense, we are doing a close read of Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

[00:00:51] The first novella, Dunkin' Egg, is the first third of that book and it will spoil your HBO Max experience this summer, but we're having a lot of fun reading those novellas, beginning with The Hedge Knight. So we're doing that over on Electric Bukalu, if you are interested. Be sure to check out everything that's happening with the Lorehounds as they jump into Andor. Really looking forward to that.

[00:01:20] Alright, without further ado, here is stand-up comic Steve Osborne. A music dance experience. Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? You'd think I'd have my shit together. There. Why would I think that? Why would you think that? So we're just not going on historical data then?

[00:01:50] That's how we run elections in this country. Let's see here. Choose the right microphone. That's going to be a very old-fashioned thing that you just said. Like, I mean, people try to listen to this, like, say, like five years from now, they'll be like, elections in America? When was that? Right, yeah. Alright, let's try this again.

[00:02:14] So, Steve, I have gotten the sense that Severance is not just a show that you enjoy. It's like, it may be like an all-time favorite. Yeah, it's definitely tracking that way. I mean, with it not being completed yet and not even knowing how many seasons this thing is supposed to be, you know, tracking for, I'd be a little premature to say after two seasons, like, this is my favorite show or this is a top whatever. Yeah.

[00:02:43] I mean, but it's on our trajectory, but it's like, it's a show that's so good that I get nervous. So, yeah, I like that. I like that you're nervous about this. I wanted to ask you about how long you usually take before you, like, would you ever walk out of a theater saying, like, oh, that's in my top ten? Yeah. It's a good question. I think there have been movies that I've walked out and said, that could be one of the best movies I've ever seen. And I usually, you know, I add the could qualifier. Yeah.

[00:03:12] And then I sort of, I'd let a movie like that kind of stick with it, you know, stick with you. And because I think the more you think about it, the more that you want to, like, the more you want to revisit it. Like, there are some movies that I think are some of the best movies I've ever seen. I've only watched them once and I'll never watch them again because it's like, that was great. I really enjoyed the experience, but I don't know if I want to watch that movie again. Like, so I like, I appreciate it on a, maybe on an academic level or just some sort of a technical level.

[00:03:43] But it's a hard watch perhaps to revisit. That's the thing, right? There are movies that I watch over and over and over again, but I wouldn't necessarily, we talk about this a lot. What is our, like your personal top ten films versus maybe the top ten best movies you've ever seen? Like, those are two different categories. That's right. That's right. So with shows, it's almost like we're in a culture where things are forgotten pretty much immediately.

[00:04:13] Like, and very few things stand the test of time. So it could be that the thing in the moment that everyone's talking about is just going to be totally irrelevant in two months. Right.

[00:04:55] 20 years, 30 years from now. And still, I think, I think Breaking Bad kind of is in that category. I think. I definitely, but yeah, Breaking Bad, I oftentimes will be, it feels like it's a reference point. When you talk about like, when I talk about a show like Severance, someone might be like, okay, well, like compared to like a Breaking Bad, like that, that becomes. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:21] It sort of, I don't want to say universal, but pretty, pretty close to universally respected. Most people revere it. Yeah. Yeah. If you stuck with it all the way to the end, it's hard to find someone that'd be like, eh, it was fine. You know, it's like. Right. Most people can see that it's technically, it's amazing. And the story is also compelling.

[00:05:46] And I think one of the things that like sort of certifies Breaking Bad as a real benchmark is that like I personally, I did not watch it real time. I started watching it, I think when the last season was on. So I ended up catching up and then watched the finale with the rest of it. So I was, I, you know, despite maybe some murmurs and some buzz going around, I was, you know, after the fact able to enjoy it.

[00:06:14] And I know a lot of people that have like been like, I should get around to watch it. And they do. And then they're like, oh, that was amazing. So like it does, you don't necessarily have to take part of the experience that's happening in real time. Like that was like with Game of Thrones, right? I hadn't seen Game of Thrones until way after the finale. And I was able to enjoy it for sure. And in fact, I mean, there were some advantages I think we found out and to not having the weight and having the. Yeah. Getting caught up in the theory crafting and, you know, all that.

[00:06:43] And I think severance is going to be a really interesting thing to look at going forward because we're in that. Like, I mean, I'm fully hooked into, you know, what does this mean? And how, you know, and we have to wait. So you live in this tension. So it'll be curious to see how a show like severance exists for people that are like maybe decide to watch it years from now. So, all right. I like, I like these comparisons because I kind of feel like Breaking Bad did have a lull.

[00:07:12] Like, I did not enjoy any of the flight controller plot. You know, like the planes that crash in the air because there's a butterfly effect that begins with Walter White or something. Right. Just not very compelling to me. And yet, I don't really hold it against the show because it ended so well. Right. Right. Which is a big deal.

[00:07:39] I mean, it's a huge deal for a show, especially a show of like a dramatic nature is how do you end it? Yeah. So if you if your dog season is season two and you have, you know, four seasons and then you stick the landing, it can become an all time great. Whereas with like Game of Thrones, you know, you and I didn't hate the way it ended, but we both noticed a kind of a drop off in in quality in story quality. Yeah.

[00:08:09] Right. And so, you know, it's sort of famously a show that maybe didn't stick the landing culturally. And it made the mistake of doing that in the last season. So if they had done that season two or a season, you know, somewhere in the middle, we would think of it differently. Right. Right. Like the Sopranos ending, I think people people still love Sopranos.

[00:08:36] But I do think that that ending keeps it maybe more out of the conversation than like a Breaking Bad. I think people do. Oh, Sopranos is amazing. And then you get to the end and they're like, well, I'm not really sure I love how it ended. Mm hmm. Well, I've never seen it. So I don't know. But so it so it certainly ends with so I think it does. I don't think it takes Sopranos out of the running for a conversation like that, because I think people still do definitely keep it in there.

[00:09:03] But it is a bit of a despite how I feel about the ending. And to me, that's a really hard place to be. And that's why I think Lost was such a phenomenon. And we and our podcast, we keep drawing comparisons to Lost and Severance because there is there is a maybe a similar mystery box that keeps unfolding. But Lost feels like it painted itself into a corner. It could be.

[00:09:30] And, you know, you said you're a little bit reluctant to like class, you know, put it in the top 10 or whatever, top five or whatever, because you don't know how many seasons you don't know. It's how it's going to end. Right. And I think, yes. Yeah. You're right to feel. I feel the same way. You're right to feel a little bit reluctant on that. You were of the mind that you could just end the season here and it would be perfectly satisfying.

[00:10:00] Totally. And I feel like I want a third season. I don't know if I want a fourth season. I'm in I'm very much in your camp. I'm not saying that like I it should have ended here. I'm just saying it could have ended here. And I would just sit in this and I kind of just bask in this experience because, like, I feel like there's enough things that are like, OK, well, this is this is a it's maybe it's the nervousness.

[00:10:30] Maybe it is the this is going to be so hard to. It feels like this is going to be a hard landing to stick. Oh, it has the potential. So I'm I'm I'd almost rather you didn't try. You know what I mean? Just just end well. But if you're going to try like like I I don't know how you. I don't know if you I don't know if you're supposed to solve this problem.

[00:10:54] I just think that I want to just call this out because I kind of feel like people are underestimating how many things we did get solved with this season. I agree. There's a lot of things that came out. This is actually a lot of reveals. So if at the end of last season, we were really curious about Cobel's motives. We got her backstory. We were really curious about the goats. What the hell are the goats? We found out what the goats are for. What are the numbers? We found out what the numbers are for.

[00:11:23] What's the major agenda of Lumen? It seems like we have we have enough clues to come up with a pretty decent answer for that. There's a number of questions that are unanswered, but I just want to say there were a lot of questions that season one left us that season two answered and answered in a way that did not disappoint. Right.

[00:11:53] So I don't know. I think the biggest and this is this is more of maybe a meta criticism or evaluation is I think for me, the biggest mystery that I was left with at the end of season one was, well, how do you continue to do this show as any's once they've gone out? Like like to me, it was like, well, the jig is up.

[00:12:15] So so I was I was really nervous for the second season because I was like, well, this sort of upsets the entire apple cart. And it's like, no, they they found a way to make it not that. And so that gives me, you know, a little more, you know, ease, a little piece knowing and going into the next season that like I believe they have this figured out. I mean, my understanding is that it's mapped out. And that's important, I think.

[00:12:43] I think you have to know where this is going to go. Now, you may take some some detours and some unexpected turns in your own narrative. But if you kind of know where you're going, the world that you've built should follow the rules. I have a bunch of feedback for us. And we could leave this till the end.

[00:13:05] Or we could deal with them now and like see how much of the things we wanted to say come up in our answers to these questions. I like that approach. All right. Let's let's jump into this. This is from Dan G on Discord. Titles it, Mystery Box Misgivings. My fear continues to be that Severance purports to be a mystery box, but doesn't really understand its own plot. I certainly hope Ben Stiller is above all that.

[00:13:34] But sometimes shows dig themselves into huge plot holes with all of the so-called clues. They never find their way out into a coherent manner. And it turns out that all the clues were really just the writers trying to be weird for the sake of it. That feels like the lost critique, right? It is. And I think I take issue with this, Dan G.

[00:13:57] If you think of what the weirdest things were about Season 1, those things like the Waffle Party. That was sort of a parade example of something that was super weird and sort of intriguing. What is this world? I'd like to see some of this answered. We know that there's an entire department at Lumen that employs dancers just for these purposes. Right.

[00:14:25] We kind of know that there's a significance behind the various masks that were being worn, right? Right. We can kind of see that a Waffle Party would be a hugely decadent occasion for someone who's used to eating a very Spartan breakfast. Right.

[00:14:49] So they've continued that theme, and you can see why a Waffle Party is sort of the ultimate celebration in this culture. Well, it's like any business place, right? I mean, if you're going to have a meeting, and it's going to be long, you probably should have some snacks. And we're so easily sated as worker bees where it's just like, oh, there's pizza in the break room. It's like suddenly it's like, well, today doesn't feel like a Wednesday anymore.

[00:15:21] And it's like the hyper-realized version of that and like eggs and all of that stuff is like, no, that's not that crazy. I mean, if you were coming from a completely different culture and you popped into a workplace and you just saw people uncomfortably chit-chatting over prepared foods, you'd be like, what? Are these people okay?

[00:15:53] Toiling over what to write in somebody's birthday card just so you can justify eating some of their cake. Right. So maybe some of the things that are bizarre to us are just part of the culture to them. And it's no less weird. It's no less weird. Well, and then bringing in like the dancing and like, so it's easy. I mean, I can understand. It's like, okay, here's some weird stuff that happens. It's like, so you go, whoa, that's super weird.

[00:16:23] But you do have, from what we've, I think, pretty well, it's been pretty well established is this is a corporation that is built as fundamentally on their technology as they are their own lore and the perpetuation of the lore.

[00:16:41] Whether they are true believers all the way through the top or they need to perpetuate this true belief for people to be, you know, appreciative, obedient, all this stuff. That jives with a lot of the weirdness. And I think if you're going to critique corporate culture and you're going to critique whether it's cult or organized religion of almost any sort, I think the weirdness is kind of necessary.

[00:17:10] And I know, and when it's trying to be satirical, I think it's important to be a little bit over the top. Like, well, and then, well, why not this? I mean, look, we, for those that didn't, maybe they don't grow up or have grown up in or continue to go to, you know, any type of church, the bigger the church, the more departments that make no sense. I mean, I mean, like, it's like, well, geez, what Milchek is going to dance with the band again? It's like, bro, have you seen an Easter service?

[00:17:37] I mean, these, I mean, the, there, there are pastors of singing. I don't think people appreciate how kind of insane that kind of is. There are multiples. I mean, my, my church employs someone who teaches choir just to children. We have a separate, a separate choir for teenagers. We have a separate choir for adults.

[00:18:05] And we have, you know, we hire specifically an organist. Like, what organization in the world hires an organist these days? I always find it interesting when Christians look at other religions and think, oh, man, that's really weird. Dude, you eat the blood and body of your savior on the regular. Right. Like, that's part of the ritual. So. Like, there are days where you're like, oh, I skipped breakfast. Thank God it's communion Sunday.

[00:18:35] Dude, every birthday that you celebrate, you light a cake on fire and then let someone spit all over it. And then everyone. And everybody eats the. Yeah. Everybody eats their spit. That's weird as shit. Right. I mean, that's the thing. Any ritualistic thing when taken into consideration by somebody who's never participated in it, it's, it's bizarre. I mean, it just has to be right.

[00:19:03] I mean, and it's funny how these things kind of, to, uh, kind of catch on or take on or just keep going. Right. I mean, like right now there are, um, Gen Z's that when they're done talking on their phone, they say, well, I'm going to hang up now. Do you know what hang up means? Like there are things that are just inherited over time. Right. And it's in, in things. And so, so we just accept so much of what we say, what we do, how we celebrate, how we do whatever, uh, as, as normal.

[00:19:32] And so for, I think what's great about what severance does with all these weird things. I don't believe they're weird for weird sake. Cause in this, any world, this very, very hyper-focused, condensed universe that they live in. Every single thing that happens is, is, is like a ritual being created. And why not this? And if you're trying to keep people to believe into the lore and everything, yeah, just bring in the band.

[00:20:01] The band is, is a big, it's a big deal. I mean, if you were, if you weren't reintegrated, if you weren't, um, having some sort of plot to try to undercut whatever it is Lumen's trying to do, that band experience would have blown their mind. It was amazing. It was an amazing band. Well, and they even paused. All right. And I mean, they have this mission and they're just kind of, they're kind of mesmerized because it's like, this is not what we thought was even an option.

[00:20:30] I like to think that that band goes into the Egan residence on the regular. And that's how James falls asleep every night. Just, just drummers dancing all around him. That's the alarm clock. He just hit, he hits snooze and they have to just stop for a sec. All right. This is from, uh, Zatiochi on Discord.

[00:20:55] My theory for what Lumen is doing is the rebuilding of the world's personality. It's the ultimate brainwashing. Severance chips can dictate who and what you are. Does Lumen want to build the perfect person or the perfect worker? What if the next step is to program, is program a chip that will turn you into, say, Jame? Does Jame then live forever in a continuous line of bodies?

[00:21:25] Um, what do you think about these suggestions? So that's an interesting take, right? So it takes the, uh, sort of the, um, more ancient perspective of, uh, reincarnation and let's actually GMO reincarnation. Yeah. Or to like, um, almost cheat reincarnation. Right? You, you get to be in control of it. Right. Yeah.

[00:21:52] So I don't come back as a banana slug. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You get to live whatever kind of life you want and, uh, you never have to experience kind of the universal determination of, of what you are next. Is that more interesting to you than cloning? That's interesting. Uh, I do think that there's... Because I think we've kind of leaned into it.

[00:22:18] We've leaned into cloning as a theory a lot and the more that we seem to be moving towards this other potential, um, you know, realization. I'm more intrigued in this idea. I wonder if now that we know the goats have a purpose, whether a lot of the other cloning clues kind of fall away. Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. Um...

[00:22:43] I read, I read an internet theory, uh, this morning that, um, Rickon's a goat. Oh, I like it. And that's why, and that's why he can climb. He was able to climb so well. He was one of those climbing goats. Hello. I like that a lot. Oh, goodness. I do love the matter-of-factness of a lot of these theories, and I think that that speaks to sort of like, well, why not?

[00:23:12] All right, this is, uh, from Doove71. This is called Helping Anthony Understand Devin's Motivations on Discord. I like when they call you out specifically. Yeah. I see why Anthony gets his gears grinding on Devin's motivation in contacting Cobel. I think she sees Cobel as a better-the-devil-you-know.

[00:23:36] Her interactions with Ruggabi have been about drilling into Mark's head. Um, hmm. I guess this helps me a little bit. Like, if you walk in, and there's someone who's acting the way Ruggabi does, and she's like, let's, you know, let's keep drilling into this guy's head. Um, right. Maybe you're like, maybe I don't trust you. Uh.

[00:24:05] Yeah, because it can't, you can't just assume, I mean, why should she assume that Ruggabi is not a problem? She shouldn't assume that. It just comes back to trusting Cobel. Like, your idea was to trust Cobel to get you into the birthing center. Um, when Ruggabi yells, she's a soldier, she's gonna turn you in.

[00:24:31] I don't see any reason, I don't see any information that Devin has to think that that's not true. Well, the only, but she also has zero information that says Ruggabi is a trustworthy person. Yeah, I agree. I think, I think Devin has, I think Devin has a plan, and she's like, Ruggabi can't make this plan happen. I, I agree. I agree with that. And I'm not gonna go around and try to find somebody and try to trust somebody else in this world,

[00:24:59] because it seems as though there's problems everywhere, right? So if you're desperate for, if you have, if you have an inkling of an idea or a solution, I think this could help. Well, I can't get access to it. I don't trust this person to get access to it because she just flat out refuses. Um, I'm not gonna go put out a Craigslist ad saying I need somebody to help me, you know, I need an anti-Lumen person with, with, with Lumen connections.

[00:25:27] I mean, she knows that Cobel is, is fired. So her, so roll of the dice, I mean, she's, she's running out of options. I mean, the other option is just to continue. Does she know that Cobel has been fired? I think that that's. I think that, maybe that's what Milchick said? I think we're to understand that. Yeah, because I think Milchick did say that, uh, specifically that, that they put it at her feet, right? Okay, now that actually does help because I'm thinking like, okay, maybe if she's been fired, she's an outsider now.

[00:25:57] What does she have to lose? I think she, it's a grasp at a straw. I don't, I mean, I mean, Devin basically is like, I, I either let this person keep drilling my brother's head to death potentially, or I go this way. It's one of those, like, look, it could already be a fait accompli at this point, but at least this one gives me a shot. Look, am I the only one that takes lactation fraud seriously? I mean, I feel like. I think so. It is to me, that's a very egregious infraction.

[00:26:27] I think that speaks more to, gives us more understanding of the world of Keir that, uh, you know, um, latching under false pretenses is not that huge of a deal. Oh, I'm just, I'm going to die on this hill. Latching is, uh, really important in my family. Train to nowhere. Davey Mack.

[00:26:51] Uh, I had the sense that Irving's train was like the elevator to the severed floor and that once the train crossed a certain boundary, he would be severed. The way the scene was cross-cutting between Dylan about to get on the elevator and Bert waiting on the bench was very ominous. Hmm. I mean, you wouldn't put anything past Lumen, right? Right.

[00:27:16] I did get the sense that Walken's character, what's his name? Bert. Yeah, Bert. Mm-hmm. I did get the sense that Bert did have a connection and that he actually did care for this person. And everything, all of the acting in that scene made it seem like this is forbidden love and I'm doing what's best for you even though it's hurting me to do it.

[00:27:46] Right. Now, could that mean that what's best for you is for you to like go off to oblivion? To eliminate your suffering? Maybe. I just didn't read it that way. I kind of read it as it could be both and, right? Like I, the way that, you know, Walken says, you know, like what he used to do was he would just take the ride, he would drive, somebody else would go then handle the rest, right? Yeah. I don't know that he didn't just do that.

[00:28:17] Interesting. So, he presents it in such a way that says, look, get on here, you can never come back. Like, as if to say, I'm giving you a gift before you go. And I could also read that as, this helps me set you loose for this thing. And it also, the last memory that you have of me will be that I did something kind to you. When in reality, he always takes people to that train.

[00:28:49] And he does it by disassociating. Right. You know, I, I, hey, it was all business. I feel that guy. I, I feel a certain way for that guy. My feelings never get in the way. I always do my job. Right. So, that could be it. And, and, and he could be somewhat at peace because he has bought into the notion that his innie still has an opportunity for salvation.

[00:29:16] So, even if he does this, does this foul act again, which he feels was sort of unforgivable, his, his, his, his innie has secured his soul. Mm-hmm. Which I love that. Actually, that is one of my favorite little subplots that just was completely like unexpected, probably not super necessary, but absolutely value added.

[00:29:44] I had a little bit of a problem with that, but you know what? I, I'm going to let it pass. I'm going to let it pass. Um, I just thought. The theology of it? Well. Because I would say, yeah, that's fine. No, I, I would just say like, it could just be that these are Hollywood writers that don't really know what happens inside of a church. But if this church was Lutheran, as it's purported to be, you don't get to heaven by being good.

[00:30:12] You get to heaven by being forgiven in this particular worldview. And so, you don't need an innie to be innocent to, to get you to the next life. So, it could just be that the, you know, Christianity is very rarely portrayed in an authentic way on camera.

[00:30:29] It seems to me, um, but it could be in this world, you know, even the Lutheran pastors are preaching severance because they're, they're in some way controlled by cure. And that's, that's what I got.

[00:30:47] That, and that was more, I always, I thought, I didn't feel like they mentioned Lutheran necessarily because this would be more in a line with a severance world, uh, alignment of Lutheran theology so much as it is was, yeah, you know, sometimes Lutherans would be a little more liberal about, about things, even though they are also, um, uh, kind of toe the line with the ritual.

[00:31:10] So, there is something to be, there, there, there may be an advantage in using a Lutheran, uh, church for this because speaking about severance and speaking about it in such a way, um, wouldn't be so crazy in a, in a world where that exists. And then a church that might have one foot in, uh, sort of this ritualistic historic past, and then another foot into more of a progressive marriage of those two concepts.

[00:31:40] Yeah, yeah, it could be. So, that kind of brings us to, to the next question here. How did the Lumen world get here? This is by Doove71 on Discord. How did the Lumen world get here? Is this world some kind of post-fall situation? Has there been an environmental or technological catastrophe? We know that the technology alternates between our world's smartphones, older cars, thinking 80s, early 90s, and CRT screens, especially in episode 9.

[00:32:09] I really saw the late 50s, early 60s vibe. Look at the passengers on the train station, it's like something out of Bad Men. It could mean something important or it could just be an aesthetic, uh, that the showrunners want to convey. Obviously, the early 60s could be seen as the birth of the modern corporate culture, so it kind of makes sense to have clothing styles very much echo that.

[00:32:33] Perhaps it is just to put the Severance viewers off kilter, but could a fallen world see the rise of corporate cults, a la Lumen and Kier? So, this kind of brings me to, this is sort of a world-building question, asking both what facilitated the rise of this corporate culture? Also, when do we think this is?

[00:33:00] Something we've probably talked about before, but you've now seen two seasons of this show. Do you have any answers for those questions? I am, okay, we, I, you and I talked briefly about how to do some prep for this conversation, and I, and you had asked, should I watch Logan's Run? And I said, nah, I don't think it'll come up. It's gonna come up.

[00:33:24] Um, I, I, I'm not gonna be, I'm not like, you know, and David sent me some, some good stuff about Logan's Run, and we may, we may discuss this in depth at another time, but I'm not like a, hey, this is Logan's Run, or, I think there's a lot of nods to a lot of different, um, science fiction, um, you know, classic science fiction that we've seen.

[00:33:45] I mean, 2001 for sure shows up aesthetically a lot, um, I think, uh, but I do think that Logan's Run is worth discussing in the sense that Logan's Run is about people that live in a world that isn't just like an office, but in an entire world that is sort of. Like walled off. Hmm.

[00:34:06] And, um, there's, there are societies and groups of people within these world, but, um, at, after time, you know, Logan and his, uh, and his cohort, they end up getting out and finding, you know, this sort of it's there in Washington, DC, and it's overgrown. And there's obviously been an incident sort of, you know, kind of have your plan of the apes type thing, right? Like a world in society has sort of been built out, you know, out of whatever had happened before.

[00:34:34] And this was either a way to be protected, um, from whatever, you know, harm may still be out there, or this is a way to sort of control who's left. Um, so I, I do think it's maybe a little bit of a yes. And I do think that there is an aesthetic choice being made. I do think it is part of what keeps us disoriented.

[00:34:56] And I know we had this conversation on the other feed about like, you know, I think David was in the, in the camp of like, I don't really care when, or, or, or this is supposed to be. I don't know that that's material important in that. And I, you know, I think we pushed back saying, yeah, I think it is actually, because it could be a revelation that this is, there's a collection of technology available because this is what's left. And we don't know how far into the future we might be or what alternate reality we might be in.

[00:35:25] Um, I think, I think it is disorienting, but I think there is going to be a bigger purpose to it. I'm, I'm of the mind that the world that Lumen presents is not the world in its entirety. Um, I think we get a hint of that obviously with the innies when they're told about the, um, highest or the tallest waterfall in the world. Yeah.

[00:35:48] Um, it could very well be that it is now, you know, because of, if there was some sort of like cataclysmic event or whatever, and this is sort of a relic of whatever that, that world is, um, like it's, it's hard to know for sure. Right. So I think that there is enough questioning about the environment in which they live in.

[00:36:11] And then also just some of the bizarre things we've experienced in the town of Kier, um, that suggests that, uh, that there could be more to this landscape. And that when they say things like, well, I'm from the, uh, Italian office or I'm from this office, like, well, that's what they're told. And I think it's interesting that they know that.

[00:36:34] Whereas these guys don't, these guys don't say where they, they don't know where they are, but the other ones know where they've been transferred from. That's interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. This is from Ender 2814 season three speculation. Moving forward to season three, what do you guys think will happen? Could we see an indie revolt?

[00:36:55] MDR convinced, uh, CNM to switch and nurtures mammalian also switched. How many more departments are there that we haven't seen yet? Will we see any quality rights activists? On a side note, could you imagine going to work for CNM and just practicing your marching band routine all day long and then coming back to the real world and not, and not know how to play an instrument?

[00:37:26] Um, just so you know, Not know what, not know why you're hard of hearing. The, where I live is directly across the street from a high school and all summer long, the marching band is practicing.

[00:37:42] And it begins at 8am in the morning and it doesn't end till mid afternoon because this high school goes to these major competitions and it's like the same song over and over and over again. Uh, so yeah, it could be, it could be a full-time job. Practicing an instrument for a marching band could be a full-time job and also child labor.

[00:38:14] So, and it's, you know, honestly, it's a little bit of a weird cult. This is not music you would ever hear in any other setting. And it's a little strange, like, I really like that music, but what I really want is I really want to see the musician marching at the same time. It's, it's a very odd, it's a very odd culture. Another thing that we've just sort of taken for granted that, oh yeah, and then sometimes they compete.

[00:38:44] They compete by marching rhythmically. Mm-hmm. You know, normal stuff. Well, you know, you know, back in, in old timey war times, they would use the rhythms to march from place to place. Yeah, but that's a long time ago. Why do you still do it? We just like watching it. We have donors. Um, all right. So what do you think is going to happen season three?

[00:39:14] If you had to speculate. So, uh, there is an interesting, again, not going to belabor the Logan's run point, but once they go outside, they come back in to liberate. Um, and it's just sort of left at the liberation moment. Like, they're all out, now what, right? Um, so I don't get the sense that that's the intent of Marx.

[00:39:39] I mean, Marx strikes me as he was going back for, you know, however much longer he could experience love with, with Hellie, he was going to go do it. Um, so I don't know that he has revolution on the mind. I don't get that sense. Um, but what I do think is a possible thing that could happen is that, uh, they did not complete the mission, right? The Lumen did not complete the mission. So that's a problem.

[00:40:09] Um, Mark and Gemma and all these folks were considered expendable in, in, in so long as Cold Harbor was achieved. Now you can't, after all that, they know, you can't let Mark back out in the wild, right? Um, so they either have to, they have to punish him or he can't go back out.

[00:40:36] I don't, so I, how they, how they, uh, you know, portray him if he stays and he's kept captive. How do they, how do you do that? Uh, I don't, I don't really know. Um, that's going to be a real big mystery, but I could see him being kept in as an innie, but they don't know he's reintegrated. And so we're seeing Mark reintegrate on the inside.

[00:41:02] And that, that is the one thing that gives him the ability maybe to find his way out. Um, so it's interesting that this is such a huge place and it's got so little oversight, right? Could you do an entire season where he's just living as a internal resistance in the basement? Mm.

[00:41:27] Uh, you know, you think that Lumen is, uh, the kind of place that would, you know, use all of their resources to find him. But so far they've been pretty ineffectual. Right. Well, who's our leadership now, right? I mean, Milchak is still there, but I can't imagine that this is going to, um, do well for his next performance review. How long will Milchak actually be around?

[00:41:54] You know, he, he does seem to be, uh, uh, you, you see the fault lines already. Right. The, yeah, you got, I mean, Jane is not pleased. Uh, but Dr. Maurer is still around. Um, Natalie and whoever the board is like, these are all out outer existence for the most part. Um, so we don't really have another inside person that we're aware of at this point. Of course they did.

[00:42:23] I mean, they introduced Drummond this time when they introduced Maurer. So there's, there's obviously there's ability to put more people in, but, um, but this thing is all like compare this to the finale on the first one. And do you feel this is a harder one to keep the show moving? Yeah, a little bit. I do. I feel like, yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah. I feel like it's a, it's a lot more complicated and I think the stakes are going to be very different.

[00:42:51] I mean, if the, if, if your whole season was save Gemma and it's like, well, Gemma saved, but to what end? Right. Okay. Let me throw an idea at you and see if this floats. All right. What if you come back and the first three episodes, you have zero Mark and Helly and you have no idea what happened to them. Do you have enough people on the outside who are interesting, who can drive the story, drive the plot?

[00:43:18] Um, maybe centered around Devin centered around Irv. Uh, maybe you see Milchick's backstory or something like that. Do you have enough of that stuff to postpone the reveal about what happens to Mark and Helly? Um, I think so. I, and I'd actually be okay with that. And the reason is because even though this was all like how focused this was, I'm still like, who was there? I mean, I, I, who was there on the phone?

[00:43:47] Like that's still bogged. That's still completely bothers me. And if you decided to open the season with him and the phone booth and we're going to figure out who's on the other side, I am in. Cause I think that's, we're going to find out do that phone book. Phone booth hasn't worked for years. It's just, or Irving's just crazy. Yeah. I, I think that there's, he uses the phone to pray.

[00:44:11] Well, everybody, like every actor is, is compelling and, and every character seems to be rich enough. Um, every storyline is still open ended enough to where I, I don't like, there may be your, your favorite and there may be the thing that's that you feel is the most important. But if I'm to trust the show runners and the world that they've built, I'm like, there's still so many things that need to be answered out there.

[00:44:39] I mean, we, we spent how much time in, uh, you know, in, in, in Cobell's hometown in an episode that nobody asked for. And people, some people kind of dismissed it, but like, how important was that to, to, to expand the world and give us an even better understanding of, of, of Lumen and Cobell.

[00:44:59] Uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the foundations of how they, they, they set up and their business and all these different things that happen right there. So like, you could do that a bunch. There's way more of those episodes to be had. And, uh, I know there may not be everybody's favorite, but the world is still has to be, we reveal the rest of the world.

[00:45:25] You know, I mean, if there's that much more to understand inside the Lumen building, there's that much more to understand in, in the area of cure. Yeah. There's been nothing yet in the show to dissuade me from the idea that cure has a, a, a globe outside of this globe. Like, like you're seeing a sort of a multiple layers of snow globe situation. Right.

[00:45:51] I think if that's true, then that has to be addressed and it would make a compelling season three. You could, you could have these where's Mark, where's Mark, what's going on? And a whole investigatory world happening out there. And then you get to like, hell, episode four. And then you hear the elevator.

[00:46:22] I guess in that case, you kind of risk losing the office comedy element of it. True. Um, which they were able to, they were able to play with that a little bit. You know, there, there were a few like little quirks of office culture that they brought in this season that they didn't last. And so, I mean, you could run the risk of a less amusing show, I guess, at times. I mean, this show was, this season was very, uh, thin on Rickon.

[00:46:52] I would have loved to see more Rickon. And I would imagine that Rickon's situation becomes more interesting next season. Yeah. I mean, I, we, we, I think we didn't see any more Natalie or Rickon on the same scene. Right. They're back and forth on the, on the manual. That was the last time we saw either one of them. And Natalie's a mystery big time. Right.

[00:47:16] And I actually thought Natalie was going to have a bigger role this season with, after the, her and Milchak interaction. Right. Like there seemed like there was something, uh, something about Natalie that was going to be like helpful to understand and reveal. And then they just didn't. So it's like, this is a, this is a show that I do believe is patient. And we've been giving it a lot of credit for its patience and its time in building these worlds.

[00:47:40] So can the, and I think maybe to your, even a bigger point, not doing just the office humor is, can, is there enough audience that's like, I can wait on Mark and Helly for the, for the sake of, because I think there was, I mean, again, I don't, I don't have my fingers on the pulse of everything, but I mean. And the Cobell episode, you don't have any of that. And people, at least the people that I had to kind of heard from kind of, you know, groused about that. Like, I don't know.

[00:48:08] I kind of felt like all of a sudden we're no longer in the world and like, no, this is still very much the world. It's just, this is the story, part of the story that you can't tell by going back and forth with, um, you know, the office world. You have to sort of isolate it. Okay. Last one here. Here we have a suggestion about how Helly will remain intact. Uh, it's from Cincinnati Joe.

[00:48:33] Mark tells his innie that he'll complete integration after Gemma is free, but we don't know what he, slash they, thinks that means. We also didn't learn what Cobell hopes to accomplish by helping Mark and Devin try to get Gemma free. James comment to Helly makes me think that Lumen may keep Helly alive. Otherwise, there's little hope for Helly. Mark would be killed, never leave again, slash never leave again.

[00:49:01] But since James prefers Helly to Helena, who he admittedly doesn't love, then that's an opening to keep the innies going next season, even after all the damage they did. What if you create a world inside, uh, the Lumen building where, um, Mark and Helly are a couple raising a child? We didn't. All right.

[00:49:30] So I'm convinced that Helly is pregnant. Yeah. I still, I thought I think the egg splitting scene was, was, I think so. I think so, for sure. And you have the baby in the, in the title sequence. Right. The baby with the head of, of cure or whatever. So we don't really, we didn't really get that paid off. Right. Um, and if it is pregnancy.

[00:49:58] I mean, the whole, the whole opening sequence is like he's surrounded by babies. If that's really what they're trying to do, it throws a little bit of a wrench in the, the cloning theory. Right. Cause then just clone, right? Yeah. If you could just clone these things, you don't need to do it the old fashioned way. Uh, I don't know. I'm not sure. I do want to make a mention that, um, we did get an email from Mike Hoffman.

[00:50:29] Okay. The Hoff. Don't hassle the Hoff. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, he says now that the season is concluded, I'm curious to hear what your favorite episode of season two. However, in true properly Howard fashion, I feel it is best to tackle a simple question in the most convoluted way possible. Therefore, in the spirit of March madness, I have attached a bracket to help you arrive at the answer. Oh, good. The episodes have been seeded based on the IMDB ratings. Perhaps this could be a fun exercise to help arrive at the answer. If not, no big deal.

[00:50:58] No goats were harmed during this brainstorm. But I would still like to know what your favorite episode for season two. I think it was pretty unanimous that the finale was to find this episode in season one. But I'm not sure about season two. Looking forward to all your future podcasts. Um, so I'm looking at the, and we don't have to do this now. I mean, obviously we've been at this for a bit. I mean, we could, we could definitely do it.

[00:51:33] Let's do it. The, the 10 seed would be sweet vitriol. The cobell episode we just discussed, uh, going up against the seven seed, which is episode five, Trojan's horse. Now, um, obviously, uh, the, um, the sweet vitriol one I think is, is, is pretty, uh, pretty well. I think we, we know that one pretty well, right?

[00:52:03] Obviously the ether, and that one is really stuck in my mind. Like almost to the point where I feel like I could probably script that whole one out. Cause it was, I think because it was so jarringly different. Um, but then the seven seed, of course, so this is following the Ortbo. Um, Helena is compelled to continue working on the severed floor as her innie until Mar completes Cold Harbor. Uh, Milchak fulfills Dylan's demand for a funeral for Irving. So that's where we get the melon head.

[00:52:30] Um, Milchak gets his, uh, performance review. Um, and Rickon is working on the Lumen edition of the UUR. So far, uh, Bert admits he has, uh, been following him since the overtime, uh, Irving since the overtime contingency and theorizes that they were romantically involved in the severed floor. And he invites, uh, Irving to dinner. I think, look, I love sweet vitriol.

[00:52:57] I didn't think it was a Achilles heel for this season. I think I liked it more than most people. But just because I get to spend time with the cast at large in Trojan's horse, I think I would probably prefer Trojan's horse. Wild that it was a 6.7 out of 10 for sweet vitriol on IMDB. That's pretty low. Pretty low. And, and I, and I do think that it's better than that.

[00:53:25] I do think it's, I don't know that it's better than Trojan's horse. Um, because there is so much, like, there's so much rich stuff that I think, I think sweet vitriol is actually gorgeous. I think it's really well put together. I think it's compelling, but I will agree. I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to put, I'm going to put Trojan's horse as the, uh, as the winner in that one. Yeah, we agree. So, um, let's, let's move on to the next round.

[00:53:53] So the eight, nine seed, uh, the eight seed is the after hours, which is episode nine. So this would be your, uh, uh, penultimate episode. Uh, and then the nine seed is hello, miss Cobell, which is episode one. So first episode of the season. Um, do you have a sense on this? So of course with, uh, Miss Cobell, you get Keanu.

[00:54:20] You get Keanu, you get, I mean, we get, everyone's back, right? And we, we get, uh, uh, Bob Balaban. Yeah, you got, you get Miss Wong. Uh, you get all of the information from the Macrodat uprising. Um, yeah, so the, the Balaban is, is kind of a big deal to me. Uh, the after hours though. So this is on the day of cold Harbors final, final expected completion. Mark and Devin meet Cobell. Yeah.

[00:54:50] Um, this is fire woman, uh, scene. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Dylan's, uh, resigning, um, the whole, the Gretchen threesome. This is, this is, uh, Bert giving Irving, Irving his ticket to his train ride. Um, I think, yeah, this gives you, this gives you, this gives you James Egan saying you tricked me. Um, it was very gross.

[00:55:18] So these are, these are close. I mean, it's hard to argue with that, that the feels of the first one, right? Like we're back, you know? So it has a different vibe to it because I waiting. I think, I think because of the nature of the penultimate where you're setting things up to knock them down in the finale.

[00:55:42] And, uh, I remember feeling more satisfaction from the, the, uh, premiere episode. So, yeah. And I also, I also very much appreciate, uh, why are you a child? Why are you a child? Enjoy your balloons. Uh, yeah, that, that opening sequence where he's running through the hallway and, and then, uh, to find out that, um, the wellness center's gone.

[00:56:11] Um, I'm going to go, I'm going to go, uh, episode one. Yeah, me too. Got to go episode one. Now, of course, we're not, we're not diminishing the penultimate here. No, no, no. No, this is like Ringo Starr is still a beetle. He, just because he's the fourth best beetle doesn't mean he's not a beetle. So, so it's, it's a technical upset, even though, uh, there it's an 8.2 versus an 8.189. Well, and we had waited for almost three years. Yeah. Right. All right.

[00:56:40] So now, um, let's go to the, so now the Trojan's horse is advanced to, to face the one seed. One seed is Cold Harbor, episode 10. So Trojan's horse versus Cold Harbor. Um, this is going to be a tough one to beat. Uh, at least in the initial phase. I don't think there's a conversation. Cold Harbor beats it. He length, uh, reveals interest.

[00:57:06] Uh, the Milchick dancing with the marching band, the marching band, the, the Milchick running out of the room after Dylan. Oh man, I love that. Just the scene between Mark talking to himself. Like if that was the whole episode, that would be amazing. Oh yeah, that's right. I mean, there's, so that's it, that was number one with a 9.6 out of 10 on IMDb. All right.

[00:57:35] So moving on. Uh, so then, uh, so then your, uh, your two seed verse. So we just entered in with the, um, hello, Ms. Gobell episode one is now facing episode seven, Shikai Bardot. Oh, so this is our Gemma centric episode, right? So this is where we get all the backstory of Mark and Gemma as well as getting our first

[00:57:59] look into, you know, Gemma is, yes, she's alive, but she's on in the Lumen, uh, basement. And this is all moving towards big things. Uh, now, okay. So it's Shikai Bardot versus. Hello, Ms. Gobell, the first episode. So it's a nine seed versus a two. And this has upset potential if we look back to. I don't think. Again with.

[00:58:29] All right. So I loved, loved it. It wasn't exactly a bottle episode because we got a lot of Mark's backstory, right? Right. But I do think that you give me the full cast. You give me the satisfaction of bringing back some of my, you know, my, my most entertaining characters. One of my most favorite shows after three years, it's just going to be really hard to beat. Hello, Ms. Gobell.

[00:59:00] Yeah. So you're good. I'm going to say this is actually really close for me because I. I will say Shikai Bardot is film quality. I mean, really impressive, really impressive. Uh, just technically. Yeah. I mean the, the different, um, going into each different room, understanding that she's got all these different personalities. Um, but you're right. I mean, it is, it's a, it's actually a kind of a hard episode to watch in many ways because it's kind of, uh, intense.

[00:59:30] Um, so I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to agree with you on the upset that hello, Ms. Gobell wins. But I do think that Shikai Bardot sneaky, one of my favorite episodes of the season, but, but you're right. I'm going to, if I, it's hard not to incorporate the fields and it is really well done. Don't get me. The first episode is very well done. All right. So now we go to the three versus six, uh, seed, uh, the six seed. Goodbye, Ms. Selvig, which is episode two.

[00:59:58] Uh, episode two of course, uh, is where we, um, we're getting more of the, uh, the Audi, uh, work. So the, I think now we get to see the Audi side, right? Milchak going around with pineapples. Milchak on a motorcycle. Um, uh, Mark screaming at Cobell as she honks the horn and takes off.

[01:00:24] Um, so that's, and then number three is woes hollow. Uh, woes hollow is maybe one of my favorite episodes of the entire series so far. It, it's not close to me. It's not even hollow. Yeah. Woes hollow is one of the best episodes of TV I've ever seen. It's so good on so many levels. It's got some legitimately funny moments. Uh, we get the reveal that it is not hell ER.

[01:00:54] Uh, we, we get all of the weirdness with like Mark, Mark gets to see the sky for the first time. He gets, he gets, he gets to see a carcass for the first time. The, the complications and implications of what happens in the tent. Oh, yes. It's, it's, it's, it's incredible. And Turturro knocks it out of the park. Knocks it out of the park.

[01:01:21] And one of the low key funniest parts of the season was when the television screen just kind of appears on the precipice and the, the smiling face of Milchick. And he says, hi, it's Mr. Milchick from work. I know. That's amazing. Like these, these people know, these people know seven people in the entire world. Exactly. Yeah. From work. Yeah.

[01:01:51] It's, it's sensational. Let's, it's woes hollow. It's, it's, it's fantastic. So, uh, you know, apologize to goodbye. Mrs. Selvig. Uh, woes hollow is absolutely going to win this round. Yeah. All right. So then that gets us to the four or five seed. Four is, or five is Attila. Uh, episode six.

[01:02:12] Uh, this is of course, uh, the, uh, the episode where we get the dinner, um, the dinner party with Bert and Fields and Irving. Um, we've got information about, uh, the instructions to reach the exports hall. Uh, Milchick takes time off to address the infractions of his performance review, leaving Ms. Wong in charge. Um, Mark and Heli have their, um, their, their moment.

[01:02:41] I mean, that, that whole scene is, is, is really something else when he reveals to Heli R that Helena and him shared an intimate moment. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. So, uh, then also we get Heli and Mark or Heli, Helena and Mark at the Chinese food restaurant. So I just want to make a note about this. Christopher Walken kind of blew me away.

[01:03:11] That whole dinner scene, he, he's probably become more of a comedic actor in recent years than he is anything else. Right. And then I saw him in Dune 2 and I thought, dude, he's kind of mailing it in. Like, I love that movie, but he was not, he was not the strongest link in that movie. Um, I thought, well, he's getting old, you know, he's, he doesn't really have the chops anymore.

[01:03:39] And then this episode, I thought, oh my gosh, not only can he be really goofy, he can be really menacing. And do it with his eyes in a way where he doesn't have to overact. Yeah. Um, so I, man, Attila is so good for that reason. And then that brings us up against number four, which is episode three, who is alive?

[01:04:06] Mark and Heli meet, uh, the mammalians, nurturable department. Uh, Irving takes a missing poster to O and D where he runs into Felicia. And then they start talking about the, uh, the exports hall. Um, this is where Mark is trying to burn an image into his retinas. Um, and that's when Raghabi interrupts and then agrees to the procedure. Uh, and Mark is flashing, ends with him flashing into the president, his orientation on the severed floor.

[01:04:35] This one was kind of shocking because I thought, oh my gosh, they're going to reintegrate episode three. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was, that was really shocking to me. I, I didn't know. I mean, I didn't, I, I kind of figured reintegration would be on the table, but that to me felt like a finale. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Finale level for sure. I'm going to go with who's alive. I'm going to go with who's alive.

[01:04:59] I'm really close on this one because the, the dinner, uh, party is so fascinating. It's great. It's, it's great, man. Gretchen, I mean, Gretchen and Dylan kiss, uh, in the, uh, or any Dylan, uh, kisses Gretchen. I mean, that's, that, that's where we start to get this, this interesting, um, you know, uh,

[01:05:23] Which episode has, has Dylan, um, which episode has Dylan go try to get a job at the door factory? Uh, I believe that is, uh, Is that hello, Ms. Cobell? I think that might be, uh, goodbye, Ms. Selvig. Goodbye, Ms. Selvig. Yeah. So, unfortunately, went against, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's close for me. I do think who's alive is, is probably the winner here.

[01:05:52] So, this is where we get, uh, the UUR. This is where, uh, where Natalie and we see Rick and starting to slip. I just, I just love Rick and so much. We saw so little of him in the season. Yeah. So, I don't know. If you want to go ahead, uh, tell, uh, if you feel strongly about that, I could, I could be. I don't know. It's a really close one. I mean, this is where Cobell, um, agrees to come back as the floor manager.

[01:06:21] Uh, and she ends up driving off. So, this is when we, you know, it's, it gives us the goat people, man. I'm going to go, I'm going to go with who is alive. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. I think the, I think the goat, that goat sequence is pretty, pretty good. Agreed again. All right. So, here we go. Uh, now it is, uh, Woe's Hollow three seed, uh, versus hello, Miss Cobell. Woe's Hollow is just going to win. I mean. Yeah.

[01:06:50] Woe's Hollow beats, beats the first episode because the first episode, all the feels, this one takes all those feels and it, and it, uh, amplifies everything. The stakes are so high. Um, all right. So, three seed. Yeah. Beats the nine seed. So, the, uh, Cinderella story of hello, Miss Cobell is no more. All right. That brings us to who was alive episode three and the four seed versus number one seed, Cold Harbor. Cold Harbor. Yeah. It's got to be Cold Harbor.

[01:07:19] I mean, again, length of episode, all this, all the marching band mill check. Sorry. Uh, so that's going to bring us. To Cold Harbor versus Woe's Hollow. I mean, there's a, there, season finales have their, almost their own genre, right? This kind of goes back to what we talked about, about sequels and, and reboots and all of that.

[01:07:43] A season finale has, has a level of expectation on it that no other episode, uh, in any. Yeah, so it has a higher bar and it, in my mind, it clears the bar. So, that's really impressive. Um, it also has more time, right? I mean, how, how long is Woe's Hollow by comparison? The season finale had our first, like, major fight scene. Uh, yeah.

[01:08:10] We had a, uh, significant death. We had the, the rescue of Gemma. We had the, the, the kind of the reverse Sophie's Choice moment at the end. And yet, it's going to be Woe's Hollow. Yeah, it's Woe's Hollow for me. I, because I think all, I think because there is an expectation, there is, uh, if Woe's Hollow was the season finale, I think it would work.

[01:08:42] The Glasgow, uh, effect, the killing of Bert. Yeah. Um, the, the, the, the, the revelation that Mark just, um, had a sex with Helena as opposed to Helly are and what those implications are, I think, I think it could have served as a, as, as also an amazing, uh, uh, season finale. A lesser show, a lesser show would have ended on Woe's Hollow and given us a bunch of fluff to get to that point.

[01:09:12] That's episode four. It's amazing. It's Woe's Hollow. It's amazing that they stuck that in right there. Because you could, because you could actually justify it as a, uh, season finale. Because it's like, dude, where are we? What's going on? How come everything is different? Not only that, but it follows an episode where Mark's reintegrated. So you, your expectations are to see the results of that and for them to say, yeah, but you're going to be just as entertained by this. Yeah.

[01:09:41] They gave one little nod to, to reintegration when he sees Gemma's face over, uh, Helena's, but, uh, but that's it. Right. And so it kind of reminded you, and in a way it was almost a flex. So instead of it being a reminder that he's reintegrated, it's almost someone, well, that's right. Yeah. You were hoping for reintegration stuff and we didn't even give it to you and you didn't even care. It's a flex on so many levels.

[01:10:06] And, uh, I think you just look, it's going to take a lot to beat the season finale because it was a fantastic finale, but woe's Hollow wins. Right. And you can, I mean, it's even add to it the first episode, like you said, just the feels coming back to the world after so many years, it's going to be hard to beat that, that how you felt when that happened. And they did it arguably twice. So yeah. Fantastic episode.

[01:10:36] Interesting that, uh, unfamiliar setting. Yeah. So, you know, it did, it was almost more like Lost than any episode we'd seen so far. Uh, and yet they were able to bring in all of those office dynamics that we love. Uh, it was a field trip. Because it was a retreat.

[01:11:02] It, why, why do corporate cultures think that this is a good idea? Yeah. Yeah. Like, let's take this frail group of hodgepodge people out into the wilderness or out to some, some setting that's not the office and test the limits of the frailty. Right. It's ridiculous. Put them in snow.

[01:11:32] And, and I, I mean, that's, that's the thing is like, we talked about all those things. There's also the story time where he's, Milchick's holding the book with the illustrations on it. And, and this, the ludicrous story of Dieter spilling a seed. Uh, Turturro, Turturro just, just, just wins the day. Turturro's amazing. That, that moment, it's like, do it, Seth.

[01:12:01] He goes, yes, do it, Seth. Like, I, it's, there's so much baked into that. Him using Milchick's first name is like the ultimate, like, I have the upper hand now. It's just so. Long, storied career as a character actor. Has been the lead actor in one or two things, but this could be his best work of his career. It's really something. Yeah.

[01:12:30] So, yeah, I think, uh, Hoff, I think, uh, you've got your answer. It is Woe's Hollow. Um, a little bit of a surprise that it wasn't either the season premiere or the season finale, but that's just how good Woe's Hollow was. Yeah, like, Woe's Hollow's an episode you can just go and watch. Like, just on its own.

[01:12:54] Like, it feels like one you can just enjoy and, uh, appreciate it even without the full context of, like, in order. Like, I, most of the time when I watch these types of shows, like, not like The Office. The Office, you could, like, pull up any show, right? Like, sitcoms are like that. Um, but these, you feel a little more compelled to kind of go in order. But I, I, I've watched Woe's Hollow a bunch. I could go watch it right now. Yeah. You also had, like, a little elfin, a little woodland creature lady. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:23] Totally forgot. Totally forgot that person existed. Right. Um, hey, I'm gonna make a suggestion, Steve. I'm gonna suggest during our Properly Howard off-season that you and I jump back in for a one-off review of Logan's Run. Sounds great. So, let's, let's do that. That'll be the next thing that pops up on this particular feed.

[01:13:52] And, uh, thanks to everyone who followed us over from the Severance feed to this one. Uh, we have a lot of fun here with movies like Logan's Run. And, uh, hopefully we'll, I don't know if we'll do a lot of Severance talk in that episode, but it'll be, I think it, it's inevitable we'll talk a little bit about Severance. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how we got there. That's right. Okay. Let's call it a day. Sounds good.

[01:15:39] The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds. Dovyeandi se tovas again.

[01:16:09] It's time to roll the dice.