BONUS - The Penguin, Pilot Episode

[00:00:19] Properly Howard fans, as you know Steve and I are taking hiatus from our film coverage.

[00:00:25] But from time to time, a show will pop up that warns some kind of conversation.

[00:00:29] This one off pod is Steve and I talking about HBO Max's The Penguin.

[00:00:34] If you want to hear us talk about that show, I'd say fast forward about 20, maybe even 30 minutes.

[00:00:40] But if you do that, you're going to miss us litigating who is our greatest American screen actor who happens to be bald.

[00:00:47] Of course we always appreciate iTunes reviews. We do read them on this podcast.

[00:00:52] You can send us feedback to cocoonsofhorror at gmail.com.

[00:00:56] Make sure you check out everything that's happening over at the Lorhounds.

[00:01:01] Really looking forward to the return of Silo and Alicia's coverage of that.

[00:01:07] Wool Shift Dust.

[00:01:08] Alright, without further ado here is comic Steve Osburn.

[00:01:12] Steve my son asked me a question about a month ago.

[00:01:18] And I've been racking my brain with it like it oftentimes he'll ask me questions that I don't have answers to.

[00:01:25] Like do you love me?

[00:01:27] Let me think about that for a whole month.

[00:01:32] It's a hard one I'm going to get back to.

[00:01:35] No, I will often say like, ah man that's a great question.

[00:01:38] I'm going to think about that and then like a month will pass and then I'll come back and I'll tell him my answer.

[00:01:43] And he'll be like, I don't care anymore dad.

[00:01:48] Here's what he asked me.

[00:01:49] I want to pose it to you.

[00:01:50] I've been chewing on this one for a whole month.

[00:01:53] Who is the greatest bald actor?

[00:01:56] The greatest bald, okay so I think we need to define bald.

[00:02:01] Uh huh that's what I had to do first.

[00:02:03] Now this is not what my son suggested for him it was a more simple question but for me I was thinking naturally bald who acts bald.

[00:02:14] No wigs.

[00:02:16] He's known for being bald and he's always bald on screen or almost always bald on screen.

[00:02:23] Well I don't think almost always bald is fair.

[00:02:27] You think it should be always bald?

[00:02:29] Well no I don't think that just because a guy's bald doesn't mean he can't wear a wig right?

[00:02:35] If the character requires it.

[00:02:36] Well for instance Eddie Arcadian, he does wear a wig referring to Barry Gordy's Last Dragon.

[00:02:44] I'm sure everyone already knows.

[00:02:46] Eddie Arcadian is a bald actor who does wear a wig for let's say 5% of the Last Dragon but I would still consider him a bald actor.

[00:02:58] Okay.

[00:02:59] Is it Eddie Arcadian?

[00:03:01] It might be Eddie Arcadian.

[00:03:05] I mean just to clarify here, I am under the impression that Eddie Arcadian is a real person and that's a real name.

[00:03:12] I do think that he is a slummy arcade magnate and he sometimes acts as himself in movies.

[00:03:22] Okay.

[00:03:24] So let's talk and okay now let's also define greatest are we talking prolific?

[00:03:29] Are we talking...

[00:03:31] Yeah for your money there's going to be a national vote and you're going to put money on the winner of this particular vote.

[00:03:39] Like so like John Cryer is bald now but he wasn't always obviously.

[00:03:45] Right well I guess the question is do you feel like his finest work is ahead of him?

[00:03:50] True.

[00:03:51] So okay so you're saying for the vote going for the populace vote.

[00:03:56] Yeah who is the greatest, I wouldn't even say American I would say sort of like greatest screen actor.

[00:04:05] Who happens to be bald?

[00:04:06] So I think this is also an interesting case because like there are actors that we've like the John Cryer example while tongue-in-cheek as it may have been is there are actors that weren't always bald and they balded.

[00:04:22] Yeah see yeah my initial answer to this was Jason Robards.

[00:04:27] Is Jason Robards bald?

[00:04:28] Okay so yeah this is sort of a Mandela effect.

[00:04:31] Jason Robards is baldeen.

[00:04:34] So is Gene Hackman.

[00:04:35] So is Gene Hackman but I wouldn't consider them bald and so like in my mind's eye I consider them bald but then I you know when looked up you know their most famous roles.

[00:04:48] They've got too much on top to be considered bald so I did come up with an answer.

[00:04:55] How about Sean Connery?

[00:04:56] Does Sean Connery?

[00:04:57] Oh geez of course it's Sean Connery.

[00:05:01] Okay that probably is better than my answer now Sean Connery had a pre-bald career and a post-bald career.

[00:05:09] Sure did.

[00:05:10] But I almost I would say his post-bald career is even more impressive.

[00:05:16] Right I mean like so there is a whole generation of people and they're dying out that you know he's their bond right.

[00:05:23] Those people don't know how to use podcasts by the way.

[00:05:26] Sure.

[00:05:27] Bond was not his best role.

[00:05:29] I mean some you could argue that.

[00:05:32] Not as best acting.

[00:05:35] You could say that that's arguable but.

[00:05:38] There's no way that any bond performance is better than his performance in Untouchables.

[00:05:44] Untouchables, The Rock, Last Crusade.

[00:05:49] So yeah I think that's a good answer.

[00:05:52] Okay so let me is that your answer because that's a pretty good answer.

[00:05:55] That's where I'm kind of leaning.

[00:05:58] I mean you guys like Samuel L. Jackson is very prolific right.

[00:06:04] Very prolific best role Pulp Fiction he is wearing a wig however.

[00:06:10] I mean his I think maybe his performance as Steven and Django might be some of his best work.

[00:06:16] Interesting interesting.

[00:06:19] So my answer was Robert Duvall.

[00:06:23] Okay.

[00:06:23] But I feel like your answer is better than my answer at this point.

[00:06:30] I did consider like you know maybe like.

[00:06:33] Jada Pinkett Smith.

[00:06:37] And no.

[00:06:43] No I was thinking of Ted Danson.

[00:06:47] Nah he never let it out.

[00:06:50] He never like so sort of like you know went bald pretty early but and his hairs famously amazing right.

[00:06:57] Right.

[00:06:58] So he almost took a weakness and turned it into a strength.

[00:07:02] So I don't think he counts because I mean I think it's just to me he's a fraud.

[00:07:10] Okay.

[00:07:11] As someone who cares about promoting bald actors in Hollywood I feel like I mean he's.

[00:07:19] He's everything we don't want in a bald act.

[00:07:22] Right.

[00:07:23] I mean you got guys like what like I mean of course I mean Bruce Willis I don't know that he's a great actor but he's another early yeah early bald guy right.

[00:07:35] Yeah balding out the gate right like I mean he was she was showing signs pretty early and then leaned into it.

[00:07:45] Right.

[00:07:46] The rock is doing okay.

[00:07:47] The rock certainly in terms of box office the rock is impressive.

[00:07:53] I doubt anyone would call him our greatest bald actor.

[00:07:57] Right.

[00:07:57] Ed Harris always bald right.

[00:07:59] Yeah amazing character actor sure.

[00:08:03] J.K. Simmons.

[00:08:04] Now my son would prefer J.K. Simmons.

[00:08:08] Okay.

[00:08:08] And I mean there there's an example of someone who's bald right out the gate won an Oscar for supporting role for for being bald for best best bald actor in a bald role.

[00:08:25] No for what I think he did win for whiplash.

[00:08:27] I believe so yeah.

[00:08:30] But J. Jonah Jamison does have a flat top.

[00:08:34] True.

[00:08:35] So.

[00:08:37] Borderline.

[00:08:37] So does a bald man does a bald man going back to maybe even your Ted dancing there's a bald man playing a man with a with a luscious main is that is that showing more range.

[00:08:49] Is that is that their Philadelphia.

[00:08:54] So this is where I was going with this conversation.

[00:08:58] I feel like we used to have prominent character actors who didn't look like male models and for whatever reason the more Hollywood has kind of become cookie cutter the less Paul G.

[00:09:16] Amadi's we have in the less Ned Beatty's and Charles Derny.

[00:09:20] Yes yes.

[00:09:22] And so I'll be honest I do feel a little bit like you know we used to have Danny DeVito.

[00:09:31] And now he's doing.

[00:09:32] We still do God bless it.

[00:09:34] He's he's doing Jersey Mike commercials now.

[00:09:37] We're not out of Danny DeVito.

[00:09:39] I'm saying we used to have folks like Danny DeVito that would be cast in a role like the penguin.

[00:09:47] Those guys are getting less and less roles now you got just fantastically handsome men like Colin Farrell who now has to pretend to be the penguin by putting on an elaborate fat suit who is also not totally bald but bald.

[00:10:09] Right.

[00:10:10] And I miss you know this sort of like you feel like you feel like this is like a cultural appropriation for guys like you and I.

[00:10:18] Yeah yeah my culture is not your costume costume.

[00:10:22] Yeah it's fair.

[00:10:23] So well and I mean I think it would be easier if the opposite were true right like if if there were a bunch of homely actors getting like full makeup to look handsome.

[00:10:34] Yeah that's never happened before.

[00:10:36] You know I mean.

[00:10:41] I'm bringing it up this point because like Popeye Jones or old and Polanis are not exactly getting.

[00:10:48] I think even work even the difference between Michael Keaton and Robert Pattison.

[00:10:59] I mean look Michael Keaton has beautiful eyes but I wouldn't say he's a classically handsome man.

[00:11:06] Robert Pattison.

[00:11:07] I don't want to fight with you right now.

[00:11:10] I'm just saying Robert Pattison looks like he could absolutely be a male model.

[00:11:15] You want an ugly Batman.

[00:11:17] I just wish that.

[00:11:21] You want Haley Joel Osment now to be Batman.

[00:11:25] Yes.

[00:11:26] No I want him to be the penguin.

[00:11:28] Why can't Haley Joel Osment be the penguin.

[00:11:32] That's what I'm trying that that's where I'm going.

[00:11:34] Thank you for helping me get there.

[00:11:36] All right.

[00:11:36] Why do we need this guy who has a genetic riches to put on a fat suit and a bald suit to become the penguin.

[00:11:47] Why can't we just live in a world with good interesting looking character actors like Danny DeVito.

[00:11:55] So that's an interesting point too because does the casting of Colin Farrell feel like stunt casting to the point where once you know like you can't like you are going to inevitably throughout the series and the movie go.

[00:12:11] Wow I can't believe that's Colin Farrell and that pulls you out a little bit maybe.

[00:12:14] Is there is there a risk.

[00:12:15] It always pulls me out.

[00:12:17] In fact I you know you remember we covered the Batman.

[00:12:21] Yes.

[00:12:22] Reeves is the Batman which I thought had great component parts and yet I gave it a pretty low score on our rating system because I didn't think that the parts of it really made the whole work.

[00:12:42] Now you like that movie.

[00:12:43] I didn't there was a lot I liked about it but I will say this the singular part that was most problematic for me was Colin Farrell and fat suit.

[00:12:55] And what they decided to do was take my least favorite part of the movie and build the show around that piece.

[00:13:04] So let's revisit why that's a problem for you.

[00:13:08] Is it purely the appropriation or is it you didn't buy the fat suit.

[00:13:12] You didn't think he was necessary.

[00:13:15] You didn't like Colin Farrell because whenever I saw him in that suit I would pause my mind would would pause its enjoyment of the movie and I would start searching for the man beneath the suit because I that's that's an actor that I know what he really looks like.

[00:13:34] And so I know that there's a prosthetic thing happening here and now I'm not in the story anymore.

[00:13:41] I'm not enjoying gritty dark rainy Gotham City.

[00:13:45] You know that Batman is not he doesn't look like a bat.

[00:13:50] I'm just looking for the man beneath the suit.

[00:13:53] I'm starting to like try to dissect the prosthetic and I'm thinking like where are you in there.

[00:14:00] And then of course I'm not I'm not tracking with the movie anymore.

[00:14:03] That's why I didn't like it.

[00:14:04] Well here's what I'm going to do for you.

[00:14:06] I know it's been a while since you've seen Batman Returns and I don't know how much you even care for Batman Returns.

[00:14:12] But Danny DeVito isn't just Danny DeVito in a top hat.

[00:14:18] He has misshapen hands.

[00:14:20] He has a fake nose and he has a lot of prostheses.

[00:14:24] It's very clear that it's Danny DeVito as that.

[00:14:26] But it's Danny DeVito as that.

[00:14:29] So even your Danny DeVito.

[00:14:31] Yeah.

[00:14:32] Your precious Danny DeVito.

[00:14:38] While while he's placed upon this pedestal of yours he was probably wearing not maybe as much but a fair amount of prostheses.

[00:14:46] In fact he has a fat suit on the entire time.

[00:14:48] That's not his body.

[00:14:50] So there is a.

[00:14:53] Oh yeah.

[00:14:54] There is there is a grand method.

[00:14:56] There is historical precedent to your your prosthetic penguin even with your maybe less Colin Farrell-esque actor in the role.

[00:15:09] Yeah.

[00:15:09] So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this sounds like a you problem.

[00:15:14] It is a me problem for sure.

[00:15:16] In terms of not being able to to separate because I will say the watching this this series I've already come to terms with this being Colin Farrell

[00:15:25] but there are he's so be honest I think he's so effective.

[00:15:29] Yeah.

[00:15:30] That I forget to care that it's Colin Farrell and then there will be a moment like there's a moment where he's I think it's when he's talking to Victor

[00:15:37] and kind of like kind of laying out the little bit of the plan and sort of how they work together where I've all of a sudden go like oh my gosh

[00:15:47] like his eyes come through and there's certain facial expressions that really come through that it's like it's very clearly Colin Farrell

[00:15:52] and to me that was almost the biggest trick like more how did how did he how did I find him now.

[00:15:57] Yeah.

[00:15:58] Without looking.

[00:16:00] Here's an example of a different movie that I think it actually enhanced my enjoyment of this.

[00:16:08] The Clumps.

[00:16:09] No.

[00:16:11] This was the very first Captain Marvel movie where I don't know if you've seen this movie but.

[00:16:20] I was awake through some of it.

[00:16:22] Okay.

[00:16:23] What they did with Samuel L. Jackson in that movie.

[00:16:26] Oh yeah.

[00:16:27] Was nothing short of a miracle because I've seen them try to use CGI to D.A. Jactors in other movies for it they did such an amazing job with that.

[00:16:40] It actually impressed me what they were able to do.

[00:16:45] And so for me that movie is kind of an average post Marvel Marvel movie that I enjoyed because I felt how we finally nailed it.

[00:16:55] We finally did it.

[00:16:56] I love it.

[00:16:57] I love that they were able to finally figure this out.

[00:17:02] So that actually enhanced my enjoyment of this.

[00:17:06] But you're still thinking about it.

[00:17:08] It was but every time I thought about it I thought man this is really something.

[00:17:12] You were being impressed by it so were you not impressed by the penguin scene?

[00:17:15] I'm not that impressed.

[00:17:17] So I do feel like.

[00:17:18] Really?

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:19] That seems to be one of the things that's like the most lauded about this whole thing is in most reviews especially during the torture scene talking about how impressive this prosthetic is and then you're the.

[00:17:31] I think you've got other issues going on.

[00:17:34] Okay.

[00:17:34] I mean I don't really check online reviews.

[00:17:37] Are you upset that you didn't get the role?

[00:17:39] I feel like I could have killed this role.

[00:17:43] And.

[00:17:44] It would be between you and Alex Jones.

[00:17:47] You and Alex Jones.

[00:17:49] That's right.

[00:17:50] That's right.

[00:17:53] No I feel like I wouldn't have said Suicum stances the way he says Suicum stances.

[00:18:00] I know and that would have been an absolute shame.

[00:18:03] Does it not take you at it a little bit when he says Suicum stances?

[00:18:09] I'm gonna do something that I'll probably do a few times during this review and you'll probably get tired of it.

[00:18:14] You are aware that this is a character who fights a guy in a bat suit right like I mean we need to understand.

[00:18:22] I know it's good.

[00:18:23] I'm glad you brought this up because this is one of the key problems for this.

[00:18:27] Yeah okay.

[00:18:27] This is one of the key problems with this.

[00:18:28] I don't think that that the point that you just made.

[00:18:32] I don't think that that is a guiding principle for this show.

[00:18:37] Number one, I don't think we're ever gonna see Batman in this show.

[00:18:43] Number two, I think that this show is going for some kind of hyper realism where it hopes that you forget that this guy originally had a top hat and a monocle and had a submarine with lackeys.

[00:18:58] I mean this show.

[00:18:59] Well now that's from the show from now see now you're grounding this once again in the 60s show.

[00:19:07] Yeah I'm not familiar with the 60s show.

[00:19:10] I'm not even familiar with the penguin in the comics.

[00:19:12] Yet you're holding it to that.

[00:19:15] I'm using sort of the cultural generality of this is a guy that eventually fights someone in the bat suit which you just referenced which sort of called my attention to the gender.

[00:19:27] You know, the general cultural memory of Batman.

[00:19:30] But I don't think that this show wants the general cultural memory of Batman to be in place.

[00:19:36] They want you to view this in terms of like a Donnie Brasco movie.

[00:19:40] I think they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

[00:19:44] And I think it's a little early to cast judgment on that.

[00:19:50] I we talked about this in our Batman 89 discussion too about like how appreciative.

[00:19:58] I mean I know I was of Burton's approach to just taking the idea that Batman exists as a given.

[00:20:07] Right now Bale and Reeves try to make Batman so plausible.

[00:20:13] Right.

[00:20:14] That that it's like it's not the origin of Batman in the sense that his parents were killed.

[00:20:21] It's the origin of Batman in 2024 America.

[00:20:26] Can you get behind it and that's I think to me that's a that's an unnecessary calculation that is made right.

[00:20:33] I think yeah I think that if you're going to if you're going to live in a world with Superman and Batman.

[00:20:37] It should be a little fanciful and it shouldn't be supposedly just there's a reason why it's Gotham City and Metropolis.

[00:20:46] It's like our universe adjacent in some ways right.

[00:20:51] That's right I recently cranked up Batman's Returns again upon your recommendation.

[00:20:56] This is Burton sequel to 89 back Batman.

[00:21:02] And I don't even think I got midway through but I got far enough through to see that if you want to make a character like the penguin makes sense in this world.

[00:21:14] You have to alter the entire world.

[00:21:16] This has to in terms of music and set pieces and costuming.

[00:21:21] I mean you have to create a wacky Gotham City.

[00:21:27] So that a character like the penguin fits within that world.

[00:21:32] All right.

[00:21:33] Something that I think Burton was really good at.

[00:21:37] Yep.

[00:21:38] Yeah again it's like I was fine with with penguins with rockets on their backs by the time they moved.

[00:21:46] In fact I would have been mad if they didn't.

[00:21:48] I didn't get that far.

[00:21:50] Right so the world the world that Reeves has created will probably never have a penguin with a rocket on its back.

[00:21:59] I'm holding that hope but.

[00:22:01] Well if he can draw that line then I'm here for that.

[00:22:04] Okay so I will say this all right so all of that is sort of a prologa I'm going to say that I had a lot of obstacles going into this pilot episode.

[00:22:17] And I came away not hating it.

[00:22:21] I was all prepared to hate it for all of the reasons we just detailed and I kind of felt like you were kind of going for Donnie Brasco.

[00:22:31] And I think you're almost there like I think you might have actually pulled something interesting off here.

[00:22:37] And if I can get my head around the fat suit not you know not be taken out by the prosthetic.

[00:22:44] I think that I could really like a show like this and yet there is part of me that feels like the more I like it the more I'm going to want to see Batman at some point.

[00:22:56] Yeah I think we had a little bit of a back and forth on text and I if I understand you correctly.

[00:23:03] This as a story about a lackey turned potential kingpin has some has some legs and is kind of being flushed out in kind of a fun way.

[00:23:17] But because it's the Batman universe you're constantly thinking about Batman and how this works and may actually like it less as a Batman series

[00:23:31] and more as just a whatever this is.

[00:23:35] Yeah the question is I think the question you posed to me is would you like it more or less if this wasn't Gotham City right if this was just right.

[00:23:46] It's just modern day New York and you've got a mid level mobster who's not quite a made man and so he's got troubles but he's got high aspirations to you know become the top mobster in the city.

[00:24:02] And I think I think I think I would like it more.

[00:24:05] I think it would like it more if it was that because I wouldn't always be waiting for the Cape Crusader to swing into action.

[00:24:14] Yeah I think that I think it's easy to say because it's not and I think what I mean by that is if they said coming to HBO Max the sparrow

[00:24:30] and it's the same exact thing there's not in Gotham it's in New York.

[00:24:36] You probably wouldn't even give it a shot.

[00:24:38] I mean I'm different than many people but I think I probably would.

[00:24:44] I was not going to give this a shot until you suggested that we gave it a shot and I'm glad that you suggested it because I didn't hate it.

[00:24:52] And yet I'm faced with the Wakanda problem.

[00:24:55] It's like if you show me Wakanda at some point I'm going to want to see Black Panther.

[00:25:03] I'm going to be ultimately disappointed if you don't give me Black Panther.

[00:25:07] Here and here's a maybe a meta reason why I'm even more pro penguin series is.

[00:25:16] What other thing we talk about is the under development of Batman in Batman films because they think it seems as though at least

[00:25:26] cinematically the the origins and activities of the villains.

[00:25:33] Yes.

[00:25:33] Take center stage.

[00:25:34] Yes.

[00:25:35] So my hope is I don't have to see the penguin get more fleshed out in a Batman movie.

[00:25:44] All right.

[00:25:45] Because I'm getting it.

[00:25:47] So when when the penguin shows up in the sequel if he's at a rise to power I know how we got there.

[00:25:52] I know how we connected from from the first movie to the second movie.

[00:25:57] So that's less development I need of him and now I know a little bit more about him.

[00:26:01] So if there's any interactions again what I'm hoping with Matt Reeves is Batman is that he continues to lean into the great detective of Batman.

[00:26:08] And this series I think is a little bit feels a little bit more in line with that emphasis.

[00:26:18] If you're going to do a great detective you should probably have more intriguing villains and villainy.

[00:26:28] The great detective of Michael Keaton's Batman in 89 is he's like hey that guy looks just like the other guy with with with a different face.

[00:26:38] Slightly different face.

[00:26:39] So I like this I think it's it's a good point and I think it actually is I think you got your finger on the design of the project.

[00:26:46] The design of the project is we can entertain people and create an advertising campaign that will enhance people's enjoyment of the next film.

[00:26:58] We can do all of that at the same time and make some money doing this right.

[00:27:03] And as long as sort of that is in place we can bring in some amazing actors I think that this this show is very well acted.

[00:27:13] We can create a villain who is smart and charismatic which I think so far this penguin is is you know smart.

[00:27:26] Here's my even so much so it's like for some reason I'm rooting for a drug dealer.

[00:27:31] So there is kind of an interesting little breaking bad quality to this.

[00:27:37] And it's kind of amazing but I do feel a little bit like I'm participating in your ad campaign for the next Reeves movie.

[00:27:52] Sure you seem to reference some Marvel TV shows in our past discussions as well.

[00:27:59] Yeah.

[00:28:00] I mean it's interesting that that for this it's not an extension of the universe.

[00:28:06] It's merely an ad campaign.

[00:28:07] I mean I do feel that same way about Marvel.

[00:28:09] I feel like.

[00:28:11] But there are elements of the movies that like I got lost in because I wasn't keeping up with the characters on the show.

[00:28:21] So it becomes very intertwined.

[00:28:23] This one I feel I think this is why I actually am very pleased that there may be no Batman to me.

[00:28:28] It seems like it's going to help expand the Gotham world which I think is really key because we talked about I think Gotham is really important in these stories.

[00:28:38] So it gives us a more of a view of lots of different places in Gotham you know high end places low end places places that you may not have time to go as with with a Batman story.

[00:28:51] And by having no Batman I don't need to have like this isn't like maybe super necessary to get to the next film and oh I missed what Batman did in this one.

[00:29:07] It's also consistent with the idea like how Batman the Batman starts out is it's kind of like he's just a rumor right that's kind of that's how he actually creates more menace

[00:29:19] and more intimidation is just the specter of him.

[00:29:22] And I think we're seeing that here too right I mean they've ordered this is like first thing that happens I think it's just like hours after the last movie ends.

[00:29:32] So there's reference to and so like there's this element of the Batman existing.

[00:29:41] But but life still is going on and these guys are moving without it but there's still this sort of like the specter and then there's the aftermath of the Riddler's plan and it's I kind of like that that it's navigating this like right after the fact.

[00:29:56] And yeah the hyper realism really works in that sense because you kind of think like well how was someone like the penguin going to react to this chaotic moment that just happened to Gotham City.

[00:30:08] Probably he's going to think how do I capitalize on this how do I turn this tragic event into a money making scheme for me.

[00:30:19] He knows I'm going to grab some damning information of these politicians and I'm going to use it against them and then sometimes just like I freaked out because someone laughed at me and I shot him and now I've got to figure out what happens next.

[00:30:37] So sometimes he's taking advantage of the chaos and sometimes he is the chaos.

[00:30:42] Well and then I like the interaction with his mother.

[00:30:46] Like she's convincing him that that's his instinct.

[00:30:48] So it's like he's as much as he manipulates he's also being manipulated to some extent.

[00:30:54] That's right.

[00:30:55] And that's right.

[00:30:56] And I like I'd like that the penguin like again I'm curious to see how he will be utilized in the next Batman film.

[00:31:04] And I'm assuming and hoping that it's going you know those interactions will be much more rich because we now have like you said we've kind of there's moments of empathy for the penguin.

[00:31:18] And you kind of root for him in a world where there's all these you know hateful villains and all this and and and it adds a layer of complexity that they opted to really emphasize with Catwoman.

[00:31:35] In the film and the penguin now like I'm curious I'm curious to watch rewatch the Batman after this series to see if that kind of reshapes my view of any of the penguin interactions.

[00:31:50] You know brief as they may have been in.

[00:31:55] But it's it's we're kind of also retroactively get we're getting more information on how the families work in this in this environment.

[00:32:04] So I think it's yeah I mean I will say I don't know if we'll ever see more fanciful villains in Reeves's world.

[00:32:15] I don't I don't know what the intent is.

[00:32:17] This would be an opportunity right like this would be an opportunity to introduce some of that without having to do a bunch of that in the film.

[00:32:27] I don't yeah.

[00:32:28] In Reeves's worlds.

[00:32:30] I guess the most comic book thing about it is that you had to keep the batsuit right.

[00:32:35] This is just right.

[00:32:37] It's just you can't have a Batman movie without the batsuit showing up at some point right.

[00:32:42] Right.

[00:32:42] Anyway so I think for this show as a standalone show where Batman never shows up you could easily do a Donnie Brasco kind of narrative.

[00:32:56] And so far it looks pretty good and I think it's I don't think it's taking itself even for a very very serious toned show.

[00:33:09] To use Dolly Parton's nine to five is sort of like a wink that we're not taking ourselves too seriously with this.

[00:33:18] Right.

[00:33:19] And they for some reason I think like I'm in on the tone of the show I really like it.

[00:33:25] I don't know if I'm sold on the penguin as a character which is you know it's kind of a kind of a big problem for a show called the Penguin.

[00:33:38] Right.

[00:33:39] But you seem to enjoy this pilot episode quite a bit.

[00:33:43] I did.

[00:33:45] I thought Colin Farrell was very good.

[00:33:47] I did like the tone.

[00:33:48] I feel like it's I mean it's super gritty.

[00:33:51] I mean it's violent.

[00:33:53] It's the language.

[00:33:55] I mean it's clearly would be rated R Batman movie of this with a case which I think is a really kind of a bold move because Marvel you know all those extensions.

[00:34:10] Those are all Disney Plus and they're very in the PG 13 world.

[00:34:13] So Matt Reeves creates a PG 13 Batman that's pretty brutal.

[00:34:16] I mean it's there's some brutality in it for sure and it is definitely somehow I think darker in ways than some of Nolan's approach.

[00:34:26] But there's still this like I just probably a hesitancy to do a rated R Batman just because of the box office but I'm curious to see what happens because of what we're seeing with like Wolverine and Deadpool.

[00:34:37] I mean granted that's comedy.

[00:34:40] But you know there are we're seeing maybe in the Joker was a massive box office hit.

[00:34:51] So I wonder if there's a temptation to then go further with Batman and make it like really dark right.

[00:34:58] So that's a good question because I feel like there's almost an expectation with HBO that there will be for a gritty crime drama.

[00:35:06] You almost want to lean into the grit right because it is HBO and yet I feel like with a major studio behind a superhero movie.

[00:35:20] I think it's you're probably less likely to get something that's overly gritty in that scenario.

[00:35:26] So it's sort of this weird reversal of television and film when we were kids where it's more likely that you're going to see an R rated show than an R rated movie.

[00:35:37] Well and I think too what we're seeing is that we talk about that with with Batman 89 is like this was a superhero that four adults to and I feel like Batman maybe more so than any other.

[00:35:52] I mean there are some like like movies like the Crow or spawn you know come out the gate you know being rated R but they're kind of laid was blade rated.

[00:36:00] Blade. Yeah.

[00:36:01] Blade I believe was like and we're talking more like I want to say fringe but certainly not the mainstream.

[00:36:07] Not we're not talking Justice League or a venture style right.

[00:36:12] But Batman I think is now fully established himself into the zeitgeist right to the point where it's like you don't need kids to be wearing Batman shirts and getting Batman toys for Batman to be successful.

[00:36:27] They'll probably get them anyway.

[00:36:29] But the but you can you can maybe take more liberties right because I mean you could you would you could say well geez if you go with something like gritty on HBO and it's all the swearing and this violence and well you might be undercutting your product.

[00:36:44] Well it was it was I think it's like the most watched premiere like I think it beat House of Dragon.

[00:36:50] That's really interesting to me.

[00:36:52] So this was this was huge.

[00:36:54] It was a huge viewership.

[00:37:01] And it's funny because I don't know that I've I've of all the Batman the Batman with Robert Pattinson seems to be the one that I hear the least about.

[00:37:10] I mean even though I know it was a big hit and it's considered successful.

[00:37:13] It's like people don't talk about it as much or they do this sort of like I don't know if I like this or like that but it doesn't have it to me it doesn't seem as like it had maybe it's just maybe I just not on the right.

[00:37:24] You know social media feeds are right circles but it's like I don't hear a ton about the movie unless you're specifically talking about it.

[00:37:33] So I was kind of surprised that the penguin would have as much energy behind it from a viewing standpoint.

[00:37:38] I'm really surprised too.

[00:37:41] I mean I'm not on social media so I'm not really hearing people talk about it but I mean the penguin for me.

[00:37:50] The penguin is like the fourth most interesting villain in Batman's world.

[00:37:59] Like I'm surprised that they're not doing a poison Ivy or something.

[00:38:04] Penguin seems a very odd choice.

[00:38:07] So it's interesting to me that they've chosen a character like the penguin to do with this because maybe the expectations are low enough for a character like that.

[00:38:18] That if you bring in A-list actors and amazing direction and you know a pretty well written pilot you happily exceed expectations.

[00:38:32] It's interesting to say about the penguin being like maybe the fourth most interesting but like he's it's a it's a I think it's a central figure.

[00:38:41] You know it's a central figure.

[00:38:43] In the comics or the like not not for because I was in a comic book guy.

[00:38:49] Are you saying that with the 1940s stories the penguin was pretty prominent.

[00:38:57] That's my that's my understanding because at least culturally if you were to start rattling off like and maybe maybe it's a little less so now because I think the Batman world has become more available to people and the villains and all.

[00:39:10] But like it was Joker Penguin Catwoman.

[00:39:15] Like that's that you know and then Riddler Riddler would actually probably be considered maybe like four I think.

[00:39:22] And some of that might have still impact from the series.

[00:39:28] You know you had Burgess Meredith as the penguin which they made a nice Easter egg to burrow is it Burgess Jewelers are thinking this show that kept bouncing.

[00:39:39] So.

[00:39:41] So I think there's that that was sort of maybe ingrained from that so we may still be inheriting a little bit of that 1960s you know stamp on people's minds but like because I mean when when Batman 89 came out I think there was a sense of where's the penguin you know like the penguins got to be next

[00:39:57] but like but the big question is well what is the penguin.

[00:40:00] What does he do like we always the staff we always associate him from the series and I don't know if it's from the comic with the with the umbrella right.

[00:40:11] Which they paid homage to in this pilot right.

[00:40:16] Right right.

[00:40:17] So.

[00:40:18] So there are elements of the penguin where it's like well the penguins not like a formidable fighter right so like how does that.

[00:40:25] So this is where I think that the element of Batman as the greatest detective is super important to incorporate a villain like the penguin is there has to and that's why I think the Riddler was a good way to kind of kick it off was like there has to be an element about

[00:40:42] smarting and strategy and then if you've got a guy like the penguin who's now playing you know you don't even know what side he's on by the time this thing is over and I think it's well put together that he drinks his slushie with all the flavors because

[00:40:55] that's really the best when all the flavors are mixed in.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:59] That's an important part of this where the penguin is like if you don't if he needs to be slippery he needs to be hard to pin down but he also is valuable to Batman because he gets he's got all the information and in so much as you can trust it.

[00:41:17] He becomes a character that I think I imagine Batman will lean on because he knows he's connected and it's not that he was not going to try to put the penguin away but there is this element of like well you know there's probably some value to the penguin

[00:41:37] and I think that that's a key part.

[00:41:41] Sort of the same way that there's that sort of odd relationship with Catwoman I think penguin also falls in that same world.

[00:41:48] So I want to talk about one scene in particular that I quite enjoyed so it's sort of almost, it's probably seven minutes in basically he's gotten Alberto drunk drunk enough that he's kind of decided he's going to go for the

[00:42:07] full on go for the drops again.

[00:42:11] And they start talking about the nature of power what the penguin says is he says well there are different kinds of power and then he starts very glowingly remember this godfather kind of type of character in his old neighborhood where people loved him so much because

[00:42:33] he took care of them it wasn't just sort of powered by coercion it was it was they truly love this guy because you know of course he's he's making ill begotten money, but part of his criminality involves this Robin Hood kind of nature.

[00:42:51] He wouldn't let anyone in his neighborhood starve and by the time this guy dies they throw a parade for this guy.

[00:42:59] And you can almost see right because of course Colin Farrell is a great actor, you can almost see there's this tension in his, you know there's a sort of like I have ambition to have that kind of power.

[00:43:14] But I'm really attracted to being the kind of guy that is beloved.

[00:43:18] Right.

[00:43:20] Because there's something about there's a good way to be a crime boss and there's a bad way to be a crime boss, and I witnessed firsthand the best way to be a crime boss.

[00:43:33] And then to turn the narrative right after that by having the Alberto character laugh right in his face just pricks at his insecurity.

[00:43:45] You kind of see his deep deep psychological motivations come to the surface in a violent moment that reveals something very crucial about his character.

[00:43:56] And it's just a very well written scene, a very complex idea like should crime bosses be loved or feared that that goes all the way back to Machiavelli.

[00:44:09] And I thought there was just a very sophisticated way to introduce his psychology to the story.

[00:44:16] Well, and I like that it's happening right on the heels of the film where we've actually Batman's origin story.

[00:44:23] I think we talked about this is he his origin in that sense is he we're watching Batman not become Batman.

[00:44:28] We're watching him go from revenge to hero.

[00:44:32] And and I really think that it's what we see is the penguin is basically it's so like Batman was kind of became a reluctant hero.

[00:44:40] Like it had to go through he had to fight through the revenge side to get to the heroism side and the responsibility side whereas penguin wants to be the hero.

[00:44:51] But kind of in these odd terms right like he wants to be this beloved, beloved, you know, mob boss type guy.

[00:44:58] So like in a sense he's like, like he's coming in this in the sense of like, I want to be the hero.

[00:45:06] We're the same way that Batman wanted to start.

[00:45:08] I need to be vengeance.

[00:45:10] And they're kind of a kind of a mirror image in one way because will we see him shoot the guy because he laughed at it.

[00:45:17] Like, like I'll show you like his his nature might not be heroism.

[00:45:22] It might be vengeance.

[00:45:23] It might be I got settle some scores.

[00:45:25] I got to do these things and I convinced myself that I want to do this to be this hero.

[00:45:29] But really, I am just I'm in bittered and I this is the game I play.

[00:45:35] So it's like there's like this these stories are like their paths are crossing and going in different directions.

[00:45:41] And I think that's also what maybe that's another reason why I really enjoyed this premiere is because I feel like I'm getting a penguin that like a villain that feels like a kind of a good not about a match for Batman.

[00:45:55] Because I say the other thing is we always see Batman as like, well, I mean, Batman could beat up Jack Nicholson's Joker.

[00:46:00] That make a beat up, you know, the penguins like but that's not just Batman's thing.

[00:46:06] You know, this is exactly the kind of criminal that Batman will underestimate.

[00:46:10] Exactly.

[00:46:11] And and I think in a Batman as a really good detective working alongside with Jim Gordon, this this this villain now seems like a good villain for Batman because that's the problem with the

[00:46:24] penguin. It's just like, well, what's the penguins job? Well, the penguin is usually kind of like he's a smart guy and he's sort of manipulating things.

[00:46:31] He's tricky.

[00:46:32] He's a trickster is basically what he is.

[00:46:34] Right. And I think but I also I think that that giving us a Batman.

[00:46:39] Reeves gave us a Batman that thinks as much as he punches, if not more.

[00:46:44] Yeah, right.

[00:46:45] And and I don't think we've had a bunch of that.

[00:46:47] So I think that's kind of a nice breakaway that like, yeah, I know he can throttle these guys.

[00:46:52] But that doesn't that that's not going to rid Gotham of crime, right?

[00:46:57] Of just being this, this physical menace, you have to be able to stop this stuff from happening.

[00:47:04] You have to be able to infiltrate and and, you know, weed them out and you don't necessarily just do that by force.

[00:47:13] So Batman's got all these great weapons and toys and everything, but it's really his intellect that's going to have to match up.

[00:47:19] And so I think we're seeing villains be created that match me alongside that type of Batman.

[00:47:25] So to add to this thesis, which I like a lot that parallels the Batman origin story with the Penguin origin story.

[00:47:35] I think it's kind of interesting that they gave Penguin a Robin character.

[00:47:40] Mm hmm.

[00:47:41] They totally he's this guy Victor Aguilar.

[00:47:44] He's absolutely like he's he's sort of an underdog.

[00:47:50] He's being taken under the principles wing.

[00:47:53] No pun intended.

[00:47:54] He's sort of like a guy that has ambition to be more like he's almost in training to become a super villain or superhero unsure.

[00:48:06] And it's kind of nice to have a character in this world who you don't know what their outcome is going to be because there's there's not really sort of a Victor Aguilar in the original stories.

[00:48:22] Right?

[00:48:22] Right.

[00:48:23] So you so I don't know could be season finale shows him, you know, rising to prominence like a Saul and better call Saul or it could be that we actually see a

[00:48:36] Robin kind of character emerge out of this guy.

[00:48:40] That's the other part about it is like he needs he's the lackey that's his that's been his gig.

[00:48:48] That's why we get the nine to five I think right like he's the guy in the trenches.

[00:48:51] He's the guy doing the work not getting the credit and so he gets to have a lackey.

[00:48:58] But at the same time, which I think is really interesting, it's like I still feel like he feels the need to impress this lackey.

[00:49:04] Yeah, why is that?

[00:49:06] Because because I because he's like it's funny.

[00:49:09] He's a little bit desperate for his affection.

[00:49:13] Well, he's desperate.

[00:49:14] I think there is that that like I want to be the hero I want to be looked up to you know and but he doesn't know how to do it right like that's not his he's not.

[00:49:24] He's a he's a good lackey.

[00:49:26] You know, like I think at the end of the day the penguin is very, very good at this job and what he what he's supposed to do but he wants more so he kind of manipulates from his position and it's like well are you are you are you a leader of men are you.

[00:49:42] Are you really are you only just playing with the pieces that are in front of you or can you come up with a brand new.

[00:49:46] Yeah, for someone who for someone who longs to be beloved.

[00:49:52] I you know I would love to have the power of a crime boss but have the entire neighborhood throw me a parade.

[00:49:59] Someone looking up to you kind of is the first block in that wall that you're trying to build.

[00:50:05] Right.

[00:50:05] And so I think it's kind of brilliant that they brought in the the Victor character into this.

[00:50:14] I also quite liked the sort of the framing of the slushy conversation.

[00:50:22] It's like that like initially is sort of like oh we're from the same neighborhood.

[00:50:27] Have you did you ever try mixing all the the flavors together and Victor says no, the response there is well you missed out as in past tense.

[00:50:38] And then he immediately responds well it's something that I'd like to try in the future in other words like I'd like to have a future.

[00:50:47] Right.

[00:50:48] I don't always have to miss out if I if I can survive this if you let me live I promise to try mixing all the time.

[00:50:57] Try this tasty beverage.

[00:51:00] I think the penguin recognizes this he's like oh this guy is smart enough to try to survive and I see myself a little bit in this guy.

[00:51:10] I like that dynamic I like to their their interactions I liked the music choice in this one which is very interesting compared to the nonstop Nirvana song in in the Batman we actually get some like upbeat kind of oddly placed music.

[00:51:28] It's a great little wrinkle to his character that they they I mean it just I think I texted you like he has guilty pleasure fantastic use of Dolly Parton and this so much so that it's the song it's the song that's playing on his radio.

[00:51:44] And Victor kind of turns away and like like laughs like this is a genuinely funny moment that Mr. Tough Guy loves Dolly Parton and then of course that's how they they end the pilot well and then there's the.

[00:51:57] What's the other song the that 80s jam during the the promise when in Rome and he the guys are like he's hidden in his trunk after like the guys are chasing him and he gets stopped.

[00:52:12] The Falco to chase him and then and then he gets stopped it hides in the trunk that fights a guy a little bit and then the gets hit by the bus and this is all when like you know wonderful 80s when in Rome song is going on and it's like.

[00:52:26] It's so incongruous yeah but it's like again his his he has a guilty pleasure playlist that he enjoys and it's just it adds humor and it adds a little layer to his character.

[00:52:41] Yeah and I like that scene a lot because it does call back to the penguins Association with umbrellas what you have is you know you got the plum car which is very conspicuous.

[00:52:54] The plum car stops right before a sort of an outdoor market I think it was all part of the FEMA work for the oh is that what it was okay yeah yeah well whatever whatever the case is you had like.

[00:53:08] A hundred umbrellas for him to disappear into right right and then of course that so that works for the people who are chasing him.

[00:53:17] They they think he went toward the umbrella and of course for the audience it's a little homage like of course he's going to escape into the umbrellas because that would be fitting with the penguins historic character.

[00:53:28] Nope he's in the trunk and this fool is this fools the villains and it alerts the audience that we're doing something different with this penguin.

[00:53:38] And so I quite quite like that a lot and then of course kind of funny that it was a school bus full of children that.

[00:53:49] Totally takes the guy out of us that was pretty well done did you happen to access the QR code.

[00:53:57] I did not what did you find.

[00:54:01] Well so when they're on the subway and the guy has I think it's like says something like true face or something like that the true face of Gotham or I think something like that.

[00:54:09] So I gave a little clicker Rusky and it brings you to a website where it's like looks like.

[00:54:17] Computer text is forming and it's a conversation so I took a screenshot I don't know I'm curious what you think about this one this first person it's clockbreaker but the oh is a zero and the E and the E.

[00:54:30] At the end of breaker is a three clockbreaker says what's been put in motion can't be stopped.

[00:54:36] Next person is XX reigniting XX.

[00:54:43] Reign you know so I don't know if there's two letters that are supposed to be before reigniting and then to after I don't know this is he says Arkham's releasing patients and black gate is a mess.

[00:54:54] No one's really a prisoner in there not even our old pile Sal Maroney hold the line anyone responds people say they want the truth but they shield their eyes when we shine the light the terminator says let's make sure they're not blinded again to the corruption the killings the Falcone.

[00:55:11] Power grab hold the line 81 comes back and says we start in the streets tonight at 9pm meet at the metro outside crown point clockbreaker says done and done the revolution is just getting started.

[00:55:24] So not having heard this before my initial reaction is they are extending the Reeves.

[00:55:32] Universe whereby.

[00:55:35] You had all these online personalities sort of like a kind of like alt right militias.

[00:55:41] Militias.

[00:55:43] Kind of rallying around someone like the Riddler.

[00:55:49] But of course now that the Riddlers off the board.

[00:55:54] That real that sort of online reality still exists.

[00:56:01] And that's going to have a consequence.

[00:56:05] So those people in other words those people who rallied around the Riddler aren't just gonna go away.

[00:56:12] They're going to start creating their own problems and from that may be a different supervillain emerges.

[00:56:19] Perhaps it also but it also shows the complicated world that Penguin is also navigating in right there's sort of this old school approach to to this sort of mob family situation that he's got going on but there's there's other there's other it appears that there's other factors at play here beyond just maybe the world that he's used to so I think that could just add to the complication which might actually

[00:56:41] mean that there is some you know potential down the road for Batman and Penguin to almost have to work together because both of the world's man to being you know compromise just throwing that out I don't know I'm just curious to see how that all plays out.

[00:56:58] Is that something that you think is going to come to fruition in the next film or do you think that that's going to come to fruition in this show.

[00:57:08] Well I mean it mentions Sal Maroney and something about not being a prisoner so there's something that they would seem that there would be that that those families clashing seems important for this series.

[00:57:24] So I'm curious to see how that plays out and I'm trying to figure out like well what is clockbreaker and trying to see if that a villain.

[00:57:30] The only thing I can find is like clocking in in Batman lore comes part of Suicide Squad so I said well wait a minute Suicide Squad that the when you mix all the celestial flavors together that's also known as a suicide.

[00:57:47] All right Steve here's what I'm going to suggest getting a little tornado warning here.

[00:57:53] So this may be my last podcast but if it's not why don't we record another one of these after the season finale.

[00:58:02] Okay and then you know we won't do a week by week coverage of this because we were both doing other things at the moment but I do think it would be fun to revisit this conversation once we see the first season in full.

[00:58:20] I like it. I like it a lot too and I might wind up in Oz myself at the end of this tornado.