Ch. 1 - A Shadow of the Past

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Episode 1 of Rings and Rituals, a shadow of the past from the

[00:00:17] Pain and McKee series Rings of Power. I'm Marilyn Deliberian of Rivendale, and I'm

[00:00:21] Sara, she'll be made in the Rohan. And we're delighted that you've joined us. Today

[00:00:26] we'll be reviewing what we mean by Ritual, and then applying those concepts to different

[00:00:30] examples of Ritual that we find in this first episode of the TV series. We'll explore

[00:00:35] them using a set of questions to reveal how Pain and McKee depicted the cultures that

[00:00:39] they were adapting to their series. Now be sure to get in touch with us. A discussion

[00:00:43] of two is an adventure, but we'd love to have more voices join us. You can email us

[00:00:48] at ringsandritualsatthelorhounds.com or you can join our R&R channel on the Lorehounds

[00:00:54] Discord. We'll include all that information in the show notes. And we want to say that

[00:00:59] we are a proud affiliate of the Lorehounds Barovian Broadcasting Network, where you will

[00:01:03] find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV, film, books, video games and other stories.

[00:01:09] Sara, can I just say how excited it was when I said the first episode? I mean, I feel

[00:01:14] like we're finally launched in an honor way. Actually talking about those stuff. So before

[00:01:21] we get into it, let's review our process. Firstly, Sara, what do I mean by ritual?

[00:01:26] Okay, so a ritual is a repeated action and it's something that's usually intended to

[00:01:33] recognize and or bring about a change. Rituals often have symbolic content but not always.

[00:01:40] I mean, a ritual can be something as simple as brushing your teeth every morning and

[00:01:45] every night. And it can also be a form of making meaning which does not have to be religious

[00:01:51] or spiritual but it can be very rooted in culture. Yes, almost always right? So we're going

[00:01:58] to keep those particular points in mind as we describe it's ritual and then ask the following

[00:02:03] questions. What is the design of the ritual? What is the intent of the ritual? What is

[00:02:10] the outcome and most particularly? What does it tell us about the culture and the individuals

[00:02:16] in the culture? Okay, so we're going to take a quick break now and when we come back,

[00:02:21] we'll bring you the meat or the tofu for our vegan or vegetarian listeners without the

[00:02:26] coil soles. We'll be right back. And we're back, welcome back. We're going to review

[00:02:39] the ritual elements that we saw in this first episode but to aid our listeners memories

[00:02:44] we'll begin each section with a synopsis of events and please note we are doing full

[00:02:50] on spoilers throughout all these episodes. So if that isn't what you want right now

[00:02:54] then go away and binge the entire season and then come back and join us again. So here's

[00:03:00] the synopsis for the first section. Born in Valenor in the light of the two trees, the

[00:03:06] Latharil follows her beloved brother Finrod as the Noldor elves go to fight the great enemy

[00:03:11] Morgoth and his servant Sauron in Middle-earth. After great losses Morgoth is defeated by

[00:03:17] the Valar with the aid of the Noldor but Finrod has been killed by Sauron. Galadriel goes

[00:03:23] on a vengeance quest to find and kill Sauron but her obsession in the pursuit over several

[00:03:29] hundreds of years leads her company to rebel against her. Her hiking and her dearest friend

[00:03:36] Elrond decide Galadriel needs to return to Valenor for healing even though she has no wish

[00:03:42] to return. Okay so there's actually I think a few rituals to note just in this opening section,

[00:03:49] right Marilyn? So what we notice is that well first of all it is obvious that the elves are a war

[00:03:59] like culture and they draw their swords to commit to that war. That seems to be a very symbolic gesture

[00:04:08] and we also see things like the stacking of helmets and that the stacking of the helmets seems to be

[00:04:17] a symbol of these, this is the resting place of all of these soldiers that great big mound of helmets

[00:04:27] so it's not just the you know like a graveyard for example it's actually taking the helmets which

[00:04:36] seem to symbolize each person who has been killed and stacking them all up together.

[00:04:42] Yes I'm sorry I'm reminded of how Galadriel in her over monologue of the introduction

[00:04:51] section there she said we had no words for death. Right and so if you have no words for death

[00:04:57] presumably you have no rituals for death. Right so they kind of have to make that up as they go

[00:05:01] along don't they? Yeah yeah and this seems to be one of the things that they came up with if you

[00:05:06] will. In fact descriptions in the Sumerulean too of course but this is different I don't

[00:05:13] remember any stacking of helmets. No I mean it really reminds me of the the Nune Thanoidia and

[00:05:20] the result of that of course but yeah I mean that point that they don't have any words for death

[00:05:25] I think that is incredibly important because of course they don't until you know things went wrong

[00:05:32] Feonora I'm looking at you there was no need for them to discuss death. It's not to say there hadn't

[00:05:40] been death of a sort yeah yeah I mean Feonora's mother I'm thinking of for example. Sure sure

[00:05:47] the separation of the the soul and the body the Feonora and the Tharoa yeah yeah but it was a

[00:05:53] different concept because the Feo exist as long as art of that exists which is certain

[00:06:01] and how the concept that humans have yeah and then that the drawing of the swords definitely

[00:06:08] feels like they're taking an oath at this point don't you think? Oh yes and that reminds me so much

[00:06:14] of some of the wonderful artwork I've seen by artists like Yeni Dolphin showing the oath of

[00:06:20] the sons of Feonora that idea of them drawing the swords and all pointing the swords together

[00:06:25] and it's like a yeah it is very ritualistic we're going to war we're committing to that

[00:06:32] and we draw our swords together in this moment it feels a little bit like that and then if you keep

[00:06:38] that in the back of your mind when we get to the point where Galaudetille's company decides they've

[00:06:44] had it with her they draw their swords and they lay them down yeah that does feel very symbolic

[00:06:52] yes and and quite ritualistic I mean they're just saying okay I'm out of here I'm done

[00:06:57] and they're in a semicircle and it's just very

[00:07:03] carefully done intentionally done done with intention and with purpose to say okay I've changed

[00:07:09] my mind so the purpose of the ritual to demonstrate a change you know however simply presented here

[00:07:19] yeah and I think if we're defining a ritual as like an agreed action between a group of people

[00:07:25] which it must be then this definitely represents something like that it is an agreed action

[00:07:31] it's obviously something that they as a group have decided we're not going to follow Galaudetille

[00:07:38] anymore how are we going to show her not just tell her but show her that we've had it and I think

[00:07:45] this seems to be a very agreed action do you think this was something that had been done before

[00:07:50] or do you think they just came up with it it felt obviously we're looking at the way it's depicted on

[00:07:56] screen but it felt like this was something that was an agreed action from before because it seemed so

[00:08:04] smooth and so you know so immediate and so easy come to them if you like this is what we do

[00:08:12] yeah I agree I without thinking about it had the sense that you know this is something that

[00:08:16] other else had done in other times and you know it was a known quantity and not just something that

[00:08:22] they had muttered about of you know while they were off together on one side and then say okay let's

[00:08:27] do this to drive home our point I agree yeah because I think if it had been they'd all agreed

[00:08:34] that they were going to say no we're not doing it anymore there would have been more of a sort of

[00:08:40] spontaneity to the drawing of the sword and the laying them down so you know one would do that

[00:08:47] and then the rest we can't look at each other and go okay I'll do that too right right right

[00:08:50] there's no that yeah it seems to be oh I'm with you it seems to be too coordinated I think for it

[00:08:59] to be a spontaneous action yeah I mean I could see the stacking of helmets being the first time but

[00:09:04] I think you know these other things are rituals that have been around with this culture for a while

[00:09:10] and as you said earlier very much a warlike culture which you know where they get that from while

[00:09:15] they were living in Valley Northern peace and so forth well I think we all know the big bad who

[00:09:20] first planted it in their minds so yeah absolutely but I don't think Mordegoth cares that much

[00:09:26] for ritual no no no likelihood now because ritual isn't a greed action who's he

[00:09:35] going to agree with it is well yeah my way or else I suppose but that's exactly agreement is it

[00:09:43] so from that go ahead no I'm just gonna say from that I was actually going to I think I just

[00:09:47] jumped on your line though and so from there we actually we come to Elrond right mm-hmm

[00:09:52] and very much not spontaneity no no he's writing this speech he's preparing a moment

[00:10:04] but the moment he's preparing for is very much a ritual um but because of what's going to happen

[00:10:12] you can see why he's preparing very carefully yes ritual it's a moment that's a good point

[00:10:19] because like again I I imagine that Elves had been leaving for Valley Northern before this

[00:10:25] but this is a big moment it's a thing it's a statement yeah and not everybody likes the statement

[00:10:33] that's being made but instead of writing it himself Gilgallad has assigned it to his herald Elrond

[00:10:40] and also his ambassador and a few other things like that I think Gilgallad recognizes one of the

[00:10:47] things that Elrond really possesses is tact yes yes and so he's definitely in his as kind of

[00:10:56] summer mode absolutely yes I I really like him for that and then when Galadriel arrives

[00:11:04] and well first he's told that Galadriel was arrived and he's so terribly excited

[00:11:09] um and he comes up to her and he says Lyndon receives you with grace and she responds

[00:11:17] with grace I am received that call response feels very ritualistic yes it does doesn't it

[00:11:23] yes that's that's a very familiar form yeah it felt it felt a little bit like the Catholic call

[00:11:33] response I agree yeah so you know this thing is said this thing is said in response to that

[00:11:41] um but yeah I mean it's it's clearly something that it wasn't just oh I think I'll say this to

[00:11:46] Galadriel and Galadriel thinks oh I'll say this in response right right right this is clearly

[00:11:50] something that is done as a ritual upon arriving at Lyndon and then you know being received if you

[00:12:00] and what you say about the familiarity almost with a religious ritual I'm immediately thinking

[00:12:06] of peace be with you and also with you yeah or an else with your spirit or whatever

[00:12:11] whatever different version different denominations have used over time absolutely so what about

[00:12:17] this ceremony for those who returned to valinor what sorts of things do we see there Sarah well

[00:12:23] apart from anything else there seems to be a really ritualistic um approach to this return to

[00:12:31] valinor and that's actually understandable returning to valinor is a big thing

[00:12:36] and in fact for the company of elves that have been with Galadriel it's a reward for their actions

[00:12:43] so this is a big deal so it shouldn't surprise us that actually this appears to be a ceremonial

[00:12:50] moment in which everything is kind of planned out almost like a choreography um we have

[00:12:58] these elven women who are dressed and I'm going to say almost none like yeah they're shrouded

[00:13:06] and they are veiled and the company receive gilded laurel wreaths and this is almost like an

[00:13:15] anointing isn't it yeah yeah put this upon their heads heroic symbol which carcs back to the Greeks

[00:13:22] of course the laurels yes oh yeah that's it he just plain plants that's gonna be gold right which

[00:13:29] doesn't really feel like elves as much to me but this is these are the gold ore and I think

[00:13:33] that's something that the series really wants us to understand is that there are different

[00:13:37] kinds of elves yeah you know or on dear in the south doesn't get a gilded light wreath he just says

[00:13:43] okay you're done you can go home now exactly yeah the the noldor are you know the high elves and

[00:13:49] this is the hiking of the high elves so it's no wonder I suppose that yeah yeah we're not just

[00:13:55] gonna give you a little bus ticket home we're going to you know give you this gilded wreath and if

[00:14:01] we think about that sort of romanesque understanding of the gilded laurel it feels like this is

[00:14:12] this is a high reward for high deeds and an acknowledgement of you know who you are in this world

[00:14:21] if you like it's it's something that denotes your importance that's what I'm getting at you are

[00:14:26] important because you have received this this laurel wreath yes and if gold is a connotation of

[00:14:33] importance what does that tell us about gild galard in his dress which is not just seen at this

[00:14:39] ritual but the way he's dressed all the time oh gild galard is the shiniest in middle of the moment

[00:14:45] I mean yeah that that cloak I mean the man is in head to toe gold larmae yeah he's the swishiest

[00:14:52] high elf there ever was the most kicked back he is as when he takes off the the rural

[00:14:59] wreaths right oh yeah that's the equivalent of gild galard getting into his sweatpants for the weekend

[00:15:06] exactly yeah but he is when he's standing in front of them the way in which he speaks to these

[00:15:17] elves who are going back to valinore it feels almost priestly yes yes very high erratic as I

[00:15:24] was mentioning which again comes back to our call and response that we noticed earlier you're right

[00:15:31] and in addition to being hi erotic it's quite extravagant very massive gestures and

[00:15:39] you know of course it's alvron's words but he's the one delivering them and they're definitely

[00:15:48] conveying this sense of power and authority graciousness if not actually condescension in a way

[00:15:57] well he's the high king he is he's the one in charge he gets to decide what to do and you

[00:16:02] you know you got to be pretty bold to cross him which gild galard that he'll figure out and

[00:16:07] elvron to invade to her indeed and there's a very strong subtext between he and galardriel which is

[00:16:16] I don't think part of the ritual no that that seems to be a bit off script I think so yes there's

[00:16:23] just that one moment where you think she's not going to do she's not know really is she no

[00:16:29] okay good she didn't yeah because you can see it it's humming under the skin she wants to do something

[00:16:36] to disrupt that ceremony but you do not disrupt that ceremony it's just too important yeah yeah

[00:16:43] and yet what does that say about how each of them views the importance of the ritual and the ceremony

[00:16:53] I think of ladriel acknowledges that this is a very important ceremony and you know even though she

[00:17:01] doesn't want to go back to valina or the soldiers who've been with her this is a huge moment for them

[00:17:08] they are receiving their golden ticket home literally yeah from the high king

[00:17:15] you know if she could does anything to disrupt this ceremony actually ruins the moment for them as well

[00:17:20] well that's a good point again your comments about ceremony being and ritual being in a group

[00:17:28] as opposed to individual it's a corporate thing yeah there's plenty of private rituals out there of course

[00:17:34] but we're seeing an individual rituals what we're seeing here is is a group ritual

[00:17:40] but what what sort of message do you suppose that's sending to everyone left behind

[00:17:48] to those who aren't getting the golden ticket in the shiny boat home you're not good enough yet

[00:17:53] because these people have earned it yeah you know they have they have done mighty deeds that we are

[00:18:00] rewarding them for um that's certainly the um I think the overall message that's being given with

[00:18:08] this ceremony of course for gill gala there's a whole political deal going on underneath it

[00:18:14] you know kind of wants galadriel gone now because she's caused trouble and the best way to do that

[00:18:20] is to frame this as a reward and you all get to go home and isn't it marvelous so there's that's

[00:18:27] overlaid on it because you know he's the he's the shiny shiny high king but he's also a politician

[00:18:34] you get a wreath and you get a wreath and you get a wreath and you get a wreath and you get a

[00:18:39] wreath and you get a wreath like it or not you better take this wreath or else yeah yeah and I think

[00:18:47] there's there's almost not a moment in which galadriel can get out of it because that ceremony is

[00:18:52] like a huge truck rolling over the top of a you know it just this is a big thing happening and

[00:19:02] you are in it and what are you gonna do and this is this is another aspect of ritual that we didn't

[00:19:08] really um put forward but it takes a pretty bold individual to be part of the corporate ritual

[00:19:17] and then bust it up somehow oh yeah and that's that's the cultural reinforcement piece perhaps

[00:19:25] right yes um and that connects to the other side of what is accepted uh cultural ritual and

[00:19:34] that is cultural tabo that's kind of like the opposite these this is the thing that we do

[00:19:41] we do this we all do this if you don't do this you are not we you're not we exactly yeah exactly

[00:19:47] which Elron kind of tells her yeah you know he don't refuse this from your high king no

[00:19:55] for one thing it might not have ever be offered again right but I'm not sure that would

[00:19:59] distress her so much but um she does seem to recognize that a line would be crossed

[00:20:06] and if she openly defied her high king in front of all these people and once you cross that

[00:20:10] line is there ever any real coming back you could you know if you cross that line you can end up

[00:20:17] no longer being able to access fallinor but also not welcome at the court of your high king

[00:20:23] and then who are you that's again that's part of the you are not part of the the we

[00:20:28] and to break some of these rituals puts you into the area of tabo we don't do that we do this we don't

[00:20:37] do that and what Galadriel eventually chooses to do in breaking the ceremony at the you know

[00:20:46] last possible moment right yeah that's what we don't do let's think about let's think about this whole

[00:20:55] concept of cultural tabo and so forth in the future we're going to come to another ritual in which

[00:21:00] these various same dynamics will be playing out so let's put a pin in this one oh yeah

[00:21:05] plenty to come back to on that one yeah I also wonder where the elves found their launters

[00:21:12] you know i mean i've never seen so much white cloth in my life i know they're crafty people um i

[00:21:19] know they're very good at whatever they turn their hand to but wow and all the women who as you say

[00:21:24] almost look none like all in white and with the way it feels do they make you uneasy oh

[00:21:31] incredibly uncomfortable yeah i had a lot of conversations about this with people who were watching

[00:21:37] and i think i even mentioned it on the alternative podcast about the rings of power

[00:21:43] wrap up um i was very uncomfortable with the veiled and shrouded elven women i thought that was

[00:21:52] that was just not great at all for me that was not a choice i enjoyed actually no no i i really wonder

[00:22:00] who they were why they were did they choose to be this where they told this is what they were

[00:22:05] going to be um they certainly seem to serve ritualistic purposes but you know the one that we saw

[00:22:13] who wasn't in the middle of ritual was really kind of snarky yeah so you know how happy was she

[00:22:19] with her lot in life and having to constantly wipe grass stains out of her ham of her white dress every

[00:22:25] night before the next day yeah and of course the connotations of white that purity yes which

[00:22:32] brings other things along with it and i mean let's face it elves live a very very long time

[00:22:37] imagine being a nun forever forever yeah full of literally ever if that is in fact the way they

[00:22:45] were perceiving that role so what do you think pain and decay we're seeing about their understanding

[00:22:50] of alters culture oh i think this comes down to their own personal beliefs

[00:22:58] interesting yeah and i think that when we look at all of the episodes i think we might glean

[00:23:07] other aspects of their own personal belief system um kind of infusing itself into some of the

[00:23:16] rituals and ceremonies um and belief systems of this version of middle earth that's my opinion anyway

[00:23:25] um i don't like that sort of uh purity culture veiled women kind of aspect at all

[00:23:36] no it was not a symbol that i had ever seen associated with with elves before

[00:23:43] no i mean if we think about okay let's think about nuns all right um their whole purpose is that

[00:23:50] they are married to god and we have um i suppose in this primary world uh we have many gods because

[00:24:00] we have many religions but if we're thinking along the lines of say the Christian religion um we

[00:24:06] have a very active um participation in a church system that has a lot of ceremonies and rituals

[00:24:18] embedded in it yeah now if we go to middle earth talking very expressly did not do that i know

[00:24:24] i know there are no churches in middle earth i mean the only at the only one that we get which is

[00:24:30] not a lovely example is the temple to morgue on no no where they had human sacrifices right

[00:24:38] right we're not being none to that church yeah so the whole idea i mean they did

[00:24:45] they did look none like but who precisely and how are they who are they being an unfore

[00:24:55] and how and why because yeah we know that the elves have this connection to the valar

[00:25:01] and therefore through them to the idea of eluvatar um but Tolkien himself very expressly did not have

[00:25:10] active worship in middle earth well and particularly with the elves they didn't need to worship

[00:25:16] they could not commit the act of belief because they knew they experienced yep they spent time

[00:25:24] with these demi-riches and okay they never probably ever saw or heard from eluvatar

[00:25:32] but it's just a completely different approach and understanding okay is yeah yeah you don't need

[00:25:38] face when you know exactly exactly so another possible lens through which to see them is more

[00:25:46] Arthurian perhaps and they'll be talking about Arthur again a bit later on but um you know

[00:25:54] a serving made no i don't think we see too many serving means explicitly veiled

[00:26:00] but clearly you know they run errands and they take off armor when it's time and you know

[00:26:05] they're very very service oriented shall we say and so your idea about the purity with the white

[00:26:12] that maybe comes in there too um it's almost it's almost pre-rafolite in a way and and the clothing

[00:26:19] that the elves who are being honored were definitely pre-rafolite volumes of fabric and flowing

[00:26:25] this and that and the other thing um again i wonder if those serving women also had to do all the laundry

[00:26:35] yeah yeah i mean i can get that the hiking has servants i get that all right um but do we need

[00:26:48] to veil and shroud them it's the veiling part that really disturbs me i have to say and we see

[00:26:53] them later lined up behind the table the famous table where uh oh yes that wonderful

[00:27:01] and is having his conversation with the high king and um yeah that's really holding his own

[00:27:07] and then some and here's here's all these serving people you know the same women standing at a row

[00:27:13] standing the whole time they do a lot of standing yeah yeah and do they all have to be women

[00:27:18] really do they what are we saying here good question yeah you know that makes me twitchy right

[00:27:25] well i'm right there with you yeah yeah yes i just

[00:27:30] particularly with the whole again our thurian um tradition of squires right yes

[00:27:36] squires serving their knights and their lords and masters and whatever it's really

[00:27:40] it's really fascinating um how how world builders are conceiving of things and building them

[00:27:48] and how much that reflects of their own concepts and ideas as you were saying earlier um

[00:27:55] well i suspect in i suspect that in this it does reflect pain and macae's own personal

[00:28:01] thoughts and beliefs right and i think it's also a chosen way of distinguishing this culture from

[00:28:08] other cultures and the rituals that each of them undergo do a lot to help with that but

[00:28:16] why they conceive of elves in this particular fashion and not some other way i mean it's it's

[00:28:22] it's an interesting question to ponder at least i find it interesting i mean obviously

[00:28:25] yeah we wouldn't be here right now would we exactly yes it is interesting particularly as it

[00:28:30] isn't very Tolkienian yeah you know you kind of got to say that don't you at least or i wonder if

[00:28:38] this was their notion of what would be Tolkienian because of all the overlays that are of course

[00:28:44] yes yeah yeah yeah um so yeah i'll be interesting to see how elves develop in the in the second season

[00:28:52] and also the notion that Gil Gallaud was hiking over all the elves yes i imagine if you talk to

[00:29:00] orderfer in the greenwood he would have a finger to you to say about this oh i think that's

[00:29:06] just likely and speaking of greenwood in trees this is another thing that i found really unsettling

[00:29:13] and it was ritualistic in the sense of it occurred on a regular basis with meaning it we see it

[00:29:22] in the aftermath of the ritual we've just been talking about but it's not part of that ritual per se

[00:29:28] it's when she and elre and when galagre and elre and art in this grove of trees with images of elves

[00:29:35] who have died mm-hmm and people have a lot of fun you know spotting there's luvian with huan and

[00:29:43] all the other famous folks that are familiar to people who know this film really and

[00:29:49] these are living trees yeah i don't think they're really elvish carved it doesn't seem

[00:29:55] elvish at all to me and i at first i thought well i hope the trees cooperated and said yes i'd be

[00:30:00] honored to carry the form of luvian the fair but galagre will remember when the first of them was

[00:30:07] carved mm-hmm so i'm just not sure that it's a natural process for this tree

[00:30:13] no already have questions because the elves don't have monuments yeah they don't because they don't

[00:30:23] need them they don't need the trees of living memory mm-hmm so they don't need statues to this elf

[00:30:30] or monuments to that elf because they just don't um so yes okay luvian very important elf

[00:30:40] hugely important elf and mother by the way still alive let's yeah let's not forget that um do

[00:30:48] do we think they would really create these statue monument type remembrances because we don't see

[00:30:57] that anywhere else now i'll have to say that there aren't sculptors amongst the elves because there are

[00:31:02] we know there are but they don't make statues of each other they don't make memorials

[00:31:10] no as you were saying and then i'm thinking of the the um text about luvian that comes from

[00:31:16] order the rings where i can't remember the speaker maybe it was uh out of corn saying and so of all

[00:31:24] the elves luvian is the only one who has died indeed mm-hmm and left the circles of the world

[00:31:32] so you could argue none of those other elves and all those trees actually died right

[00:31:38] you know because they yeah the physical body may have perished in middle earth at some point but

[00:31:45] because of serial longevity that is not death right right maybe they're in mando still who knows

[00:31:51] and we know at least one who probably is never gonna leave now he's on the naughty step in the back

[00:31:55] corner absolutely wearing a pointed cap on occasion i think but you know so again it's the the

[00:32:05] line of trees the double lot row of trees and the open path very much like a cathedral oh yes

[00:32:13] and then we walk into the cathedral and here are the images of our saints

[00:32:17] it does feel a little bit more Catholic than Tolkien it really does it really does and

[00:32:25] ah galadriel saying i imagined that one day i would be among them you know she actually has this

[00:32:33] sense of they'll put a carving up to me someday oh the piling up of the hat helmets seem to me to be

[00:32:41] almost an instinctual gesture yeah it's a recognition of the of a moment and of the sacrifice

[00:32:49] that that people have made yes but it's not a tradition at that point and this has clearly become

[00:32:55] a tradition and it just it just felt strange to me yeah i agree well before we move on to our next

[00:33:07] example um what did you think of the music for the what do you remember of the music for the

[00:33:13] actual ritual itself yeah i mean i'm just gonna say out loud straight away by the way i love

[00:33:19] bear macreery's music yeah across this entire season it is a thing of beauty it is glorious

[00:33:27] and there are some moments and we'll get to some of these moments where the music

[00:33:32] just makes that the moment it's wonderful um with this particular scene we've been talking about how

[00:33:42] it feels almost like entering a cathedral and that kind of um the kind of music you expect

[00:33:51] it to be the background to this sort of scene and i do think he gives us that actually almost him

[00:33:58] like in it yes it is movement through the scene and you have traditional European instruments

[00:34:06] you know you have you have strings and i think there's some brass in there too and the rising and

[00:34:11] falling of that you know at the emotional peaks yes of things as you say a vocative of

[00:34:20] religious practices perhaps but it it underlines the importance of the moment the joy of the

[00:34:27] moment you know and then i think we go directly from that final view of them with the ocean on the

[00:34:33] dramatic clustering and the next thing you know we're getting fireworks so clearly celebratory as well

[00:34:40] yes but but it's it's not diagetic it's not music they're making it's it's what

[00:34:45] yes the movie makers have chosen to have us listen to yes yeah as a reflection of this culture

[00:34:51] and and bring up from us whatever associations we have with that kind of music and it does as

[00:34:58] it is meant to do it is meant to give us that sense of this emotional moment and there are moments

[00:35:05] later on in the series where we do get diagetic music of course and some of those moments are just

[00:35:12] I mean there's one in particular i'm thinking of that i'm really looking forward to talking about later on

[00:35:16] um but here bimmer query's music does exactly what it's designed to do it brings us into the moment

[00:35:24] and it makes us feel what the elves who are on that boat heading off to valina are supposed to be

[00:35:30] feeling at the moment uplifted this is a glorious moment this is a ceremony that celebrates

[00:35:37] that you know this is happening and then you know we get the fireworks going on because

[00:35:41] woo but it does exactly what is designed to do triumphant comes to mind yeah and a sense a sense of

[00:35:49] accomplishment and i2 absolutely adore the music that bear came up for this i when i heard the first

[00:35:58] tracks that were coming out that were basically statements of each individual theme with an a

[00:36:03] and a b in back to the a you know great traditional form and i thought well it's nice that's okay y'all

[00:36:09] seems a little um playing if you will in terms of presentation well when you start listening to

[00:36:16] the soundtrack of the actual film and you see the incredible way with which he uses these themes

[00:36:25] you know they become lightwoolteams and he weaves them in just so skillfully and that to me is what

[00:36:31] really highlights both his skills and musician and the closeness with which he has been working

[00:36:39] with you know the filmmakers and everybody else to um definitely enhance the experience for all of

[00:36:46] us i agree uh and in that sense it reminds me very much of the job that Howard Shor did

[00:36:53] with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films exactly the same thing themes for the different cultures

[00:36:59] different lightmoctiefs all of these things that that were woven in so beautifully and i think that

[00:37:06] Bermacryery did an absolutely fantastic job you know see what you will about we had Wagner who

[00:37:11] definitely was not a nice human being on many levels um his creation of that concept of the lightmochev

[00:37:19] has really stuck with us and is so serviceable in a combination of visual as well as auditory

[00:37:28] experience which is of course what he had in mind when he created in the first place

[00:37:31] yes it's nice that there's something about him that's Lord of all

[00:37:36] so anything else about this particular event or showing we move on to the next one

[00:37:42] i think we we can move on to the next one if that's okay okay so if you would please read our next

[00:37:48] synopsis okay because we are in the wilderness and the half-foot are about to begin their annual

[00:37:55] harvest fest and their migration saddock their trailfinder and some of the wise women are concerned

[00:38:01] with strange omens on earth and in the skies but nori is happy to pick blackberries and wonder

[00:38:07] about the world beyond their familiar wanderings yes so what i had in mind here is not exactly ritual

[00:38:15] per se but it's i think it it's a very strong image when you see saddock their trail leader

[00:38:26] followed by three older women all dressed in black and wearing black hoods

[00:38:30] i'm reminded of odin and the three norns because odin is the wanderer

[00:38:38] and of course saddock has to lead their wanderings and the three norns are the ones who

[00:38:44] um speak of the fates of each human being there's one who spins the thread and one who measures it

[00:38:52] and one who cuts it not unlike the Greek mythology of course and certainly saddock serves as

[00:39:00] the wise one of their group so did you did you see anything like that um yeah it's it's very noticeable

[00:39:09] isn't it that you have a saddock the leader and you have these three wise women um who are with him

[00:39:16] and i think that although we don't get a lot of ritual as such or ceremony in this particular

[00:39:22] introduction to the half-fates um this is the beginning of that because actually the half-fates do

[00:39:27] have a lot of ritualistic behavior they do have ceremony very very much so um and so this is kind

[00:39:35] of the beginning of it uh where we see that you know we get that hint that they are a culture that

[00:39:41] does have those things and of course one of their most important rituals of all is their migration

[00:39:48] yes and so we're introduced to that idea now that these are wandering people

[00:39:53] but not wandering without any particular sense of purpose they have very specific places they go

[00:39:58] at specific times and they recognize that they've written it down in books so they have a tradition

[00:40:04] of handed-down knowledge and information and they follow it one might say almost

[00:40:12] ritually oh very much so yeah um because again here is an agreed action uh this is what we do

[00:40:21] we all leave on that at this time of the year because we will then end up at this place at the

[00:40:29] perfect time to harvest these particular foods because this as you say it's a wandering people

[00:40:35] they don't cultivate their own foodstuffs they move to where those foodstuffs are at different

[00:40:42] points in the year so they need to do that this is what um these kind of traveling people have done

[00:40:48] since time immemorial is move from place to place um i mean they carry their homes with them

[00:40:56] to make sure they can do that so yeah this is this is what their culture does

[00:41:02] and now i'm thinking back to your earlier comment about the taboo space right we already see hints of

[00:41:08] nori wondering what it's like outside of this ritual right yeah yeah um and that makes her different

[00:41:22] which is difficult when survival of your culture of your group depends on everybody pulling together

[00:41:29] at the same time and doing the same thing um if you have somebody who's you know

[00:41:36] going outside of that that can cause trouble um and uh nori is definitely that kind because

[00:41:44] it is not usual for these half-foot to wonder about what's going on outside of what it is that

[00:41:52] their people do um and you can see that sadok doesn't respond too well to the notion of anybody

[00:42:01] thinking outside the books right or moutagold the nori's nori's mother who basically tells her you

[00:42:09] know we rely on each other we have each other and we are free of an awful lot of the cares that other

[00:42:15] folks who live in different ways have and i know she doesn't say it in this particular scene but i

[00:42:21] with her famous line you know the tallest sunflower gets snipped yes only it wasn't a sunflower

[00:42:27] i don't know what it was but anyway we'll come to that in the future but interesting ways of

[00:42:33] corralling and maintaining your culture you know establishing the boundaries and and you know

[00:42:39] patrolling them yeah making sure that they come right so what do you remember about the um

[00:42:45] the musical messages that we get from the hardwoods well at least to start off with we do get a lot of

[00:42:52] that kind of um joyful irrepressible kind of idea of who they are and until we get the scary

[00:43:02] moments of course right right but we do get that sense of them being free spirited free hearted

[00:43:11] that they you know they live together off the land it's a community i think the sort of like

[00:43:18] again lighthearted notes behind it show us that this is a a happy people and most of the music

[00:43:26] that you hear both diagetic and non-diagetic is with instruments made of natural materials

[00:43:35] yes so you're not going to get any you know brass instruments for example

[00:43:40] you've got drums of different materials you've got you know pipes that are either hollowed out

[00:43:45] wood or possibly made with clay i think the little uh pipes that marigold uses just to signify

[00:43:52] all you know all clear looks to me like it was made of clay and you know for that purpose presumably

[00:44:00] so that's that's one thing very rhythmic yes very rhythmic and like dance because they are always in

[00:44:08] motion i like that and interestingly also very much like a lot of the ethnic music what what

[00:44:17] westerners would call ethnic music but in terms of their rhythms you hear one two three one two

[00:44:23] three four one two three one two three four five it's it's that unexpected kind of rhythm shift

[00:44:30] and the melody that they're composed is very very close to a melody from Algeria

[00:44:40] which you could hear on uh alabana uh cd called sojourns so when i first heard the melody i thought

[00:44:49] i know that that's right but don't it's very very familiar to me and i just took me a long time

[00:44:56] but i finally figured out okay it's that melody oh that's wonderful slightly slightly rearranged

[00:45:02] rhythmically but um yeah yeah so that was a lot of fun so like there again you know simplicity

[00:45:07] it's a single line it's it's not harmony piled on harmony um and lots of fun ways to make rhythm to go

[00:45:13] along with it but that makes sense for the people doesn't it you want um simple not simplistic

[00:45:20] simple music yes that could be made with handmade instruments out of natural materials uh and also

[00:45:30] a tune that is easy to remember because you're not writing it down anywhere and you want to pass it

[00:45:35] on to others uh and you know if you actually have a song there needs to be something that is memorable

[00:45:41] and it will be sung over and over again so it needs to have all of those sorts of elements to it

[00:45:46] and i do think that the uh the music that we get along with the half-foot does that yeah yeah it

[00:45:53] is easily felt in the body yes so an embodied kind of music that you can carry with you wherever you go

[00:46:01] and as you say it doesn't necessarily have to be written down i don't know if Sadduck has notes

[00:46:05] in his big book of okay for harvest festival do this but we can figure that out as we go along

[00:46:12] the next time and you think that's for the harf woods at this point um i think that we're done with

[00:46:18] the half-foot at this point because it is just a glimpse of them isn't it really true for us to get

[00:46:24] a little bit of context on them and be introduced to nori yes also the contrast between their culture

[00:46:32] and the culture of the non-blur oh yes extremely different yes yes indeed okay so shall i look at the

[00:46:42] next synopsis if you would please okay so in the south lands the silver and elves are still guarding

[00:46:49] the descendants of the humans who followed morgoth in the wars hundreds of years ago

[00:46:54] arrondia one of the elvish watchers loves bronwyn a human healer upon learning that the high king has

[00:47:01] declared the wars over uh and calls the elves to end their watch arrondia goes to tell bronwyn

[00:47:06] their leaving but both are distracted by a very sick cow which have been grazing at the next town

[00:47:11] over okay so do we have any ritual elements here at all merlin no not this not in this section but

[00:47:19] just to keep the continuity of the synopsis in order so that people can follow us along okay

[00:47:26] so here is the next chunk of the synopsis in lendon Gilgalad's realm elvaron learns that the high

[00:47:34] king knows that sauron is still present even though he told galadriel otherwise on the ship we're

[00:47:41] turning to valenor the warriors are relieved with their armor and weapons the lathario reluctantly

[00:47:47] yields a per brother's dagger which she had kept with her all this time as the ship draws near

[00:47:54] the undying lands a meteor streaks across the sky and across the view of all the peoples we have

[00:47:59] seen so far plus a family of ends as the meteor lands in your norris folk galadriel dives into the sea

[00:48:08] having realized that she is not yet ready to return to valenor okay well this bit

[00:48:15] much like the first bit on the elves contains a lot of ritual because it's still I think

[00:48:21] part of the ceremony that we were looking at in the first part it's still the same ceremony

[00:48:27] it's just that they're now in the water right good good point good point okay so um you were talking

[00:48:34] earlier about um what were we talking about they've veiled elven women you were saying perhaps

[00:48:39] we could read this as being very Arthurian and of course this trip across the sundering seas is

[00:48:45] quite Arthurian and it's also very ritualistic yeah yeah the whole Arthur crossing the ocean

[00:48:54] after he has been received a mortal wound from from mortgared who actually died

[00:49:00] being escorted by women on a ship right crossing a body of water to a place that is not

[00:49:07] of this world altogether though it sort of is um in order to receive healing and a sense that he

[00:49:13] will return one day now we don't necessarily get that from the elves but in a sense I suppose you

[00:49:17] can't say Galavrio returns to the astonishment of a few elves you know towards the end of the season

[00:49:25] their gestures are very ritualistic and again hiaratic that that kind of almost priestly

[00:49:31] disrobing the symbol of we are removing your garments of war and your weapons of war right and of

[00:49:38] course that's where Galavrio gets a little antsy and they're still in white they're still in white

[00:49:45] and just sort of you know just a very flowy drapey kind of thing it I mean a lot of people call it

[00:49:50] the nightgown which you know they're not wrong it sure looks like it does look like yes you must be

[00:49:56] in your best negligee to go into there you go there you go there you go yeah then the light shining

[00:50:04] from the west right you know the west is traditionally the place of the ancestors and

[00:50:11] um the deer departed I mean certainly with your knowledge of Welsh mythology and so forth you

[00:50:18] could talk about this far more effectively than I could but although I guess is it for the Welsh

[00:50:24] that's for some the the land of the ancestors is the north rather than the west I think we look to

[00:50:30] the west that's what I thought too yeah that's what I thought there are some who do but it's not

[00:50:36] Istanbul Welsh and then the birds fly out I remember from the watching the trailers and seeing

[00:50:42] this moment it was so moving and and they're singing the birds are singing so again music as part

[00:50:50] of ritual expression very important to very effective I think and earlier we had heard Elrond

[00:50:59] talk about what he had heard about those who returned to Valinor there is a song

[00:51:06] that they know in their hearts they've always known and as they approach Valinor

[00:51:12] they hear it and they start to sing it themselves right so clearly this is ritual in the sense that

[00:51:21] it is a story that has been handed down a knowledge that all share jointly and some get to experience

[00:51:29] and so this is what we see here right and it all feels like so almost like a ritual cleansing

[00:51:39] before you enter paradise kind of idea being stripped of of all of your accoutrements of war

[00:51:47] because you cannot enter Valinor with a knife at your belt probably not really but okay

[00:51:55] but yeah it's that it's almost like heavens gates are opening but you have and I thought

[00:52:02] this was kind of a nice call back to the words that we hear in the Jackson films it's Gandalf who

[00:52:09] says these to pipin before you know the storm breaks but actually in the book it's Frodo

[00:52:16] and his dream and the rain clouds roll black back and and you know you get the light and it's

[00:52:23] I think it's pointing back to that moment and all turns to silver glass etc it's just I mean

[00:52:30] yes beautiful beautiful language in the book it's absolutely glorious and I think this is what

[00:52:37] they were trying to go for here is that idea that Valinor is otherworldly yeah whilst being sort of

[00:52:46] ish may be part of our will but there is a barrier between eventually yeah yeah they're not really

[00:52:53] clear in in this series as to whether or not those barriers have been established no they had

[00:52:59] not been in in in the original text no we're not established because Mary still up there it hasn't

[00:53:05] been complained yet we may not have seen it yet at this point but it's there yeah but there is

[00:53:10] there is a bit of a barrier in that there's this sort of fog or mist or rain cloud or whatever

[00:53:16] that has to kind of part like a set of curtains yeah so there is a bit of a barrier there

[00:53:24] it I mean it's not like you've got to say the password the the gate or anything although maybe

[00:53:29] the ritual singing is part of the password that's an interesting idea much nicer than a visa I think

[00:53:35] and a lot to get I think so if you're an elf anyway a lot less paperwork involved yes definitely yeah

[00:53:46] definitely definitely okay so after we get this sort of rolling back of the rain clouds we get

[00:53:55] this light shining upon them again it feels very ritualistic doesn't it that you are now being

[00:54:03] pazed in the light of valina and it's also glorious and also beautiful and then we get the

[00:54:09] disruption of the comet and that disrupts the ceremony now so do they actually see the

[00:54:17] comment on the boat is my question I thought that it was spotted by Galadriel but you can correct me

[00:54:25] I see I can't remember that specifically so listeners please read in and tell us yes we could be

[00:54:30] wrong at what point did it happen and you know did she see it I just my memory of her is she was

[00:54:38] so focused on her struggle and then she was distracted by her second in command whoever he was

[00:54:47] you know saying come hold give me your hand and you know he could tell she was having

[00:54:52] yeah second second thoughts and third thoughts so I don't know I just that they the way they filmed

[00:55:00] it she hits the water at the same instant that the meteor hits the earth hmm that's that is

[00:55:06] very vivid in my mind but yeah maybe maybe we can issue a clarification and I are next to

[00:55:12] us absolutely the important thing of course is that Galadriel does not complete the ritual right the

[00:55:21] others on the boat do I don't know about the failed women I mean do they turn around and come back

[00:55:26] I do too I do too I mean again when I was seeing the um the teasers and the trailers

[00:55:35] and you know all these different pieces being pushed back and forth and we see at some points

[00:55:40] you know this disaster at sea and bits of boat sticking up in monsters swimming around and

[00:55:45] everything I thought maybe they were going to show that the ship was denied passage

[00:55:51] and this sea monster came along and destroyed it maybe I was in a negative space at the time or

[00:55:58] something anyway that would have been interesting though and my first question was what about those

[00:56:03] serving women what happens do they die too I mean come on you may not want this boat to come back

[00:56:09] to Valinot but surely there are more compassionate ways of just demonstrating that right I don't know

[00:56:16] I think the serving women grab an ore and go we're going to Valinot we're going right now

[00:56:22] or something or something I mean at the very least I hope the honor had a swim

[00:56:27] yeah my idea is that they just sail back on the next boat to Middle Earth and um or maybe

[00:56:32] maybe they get rewarded you know maybe they tear off their rails and say yeah thank goodness we can

[00:56:38] get rid of this awful shrouding thing yeah um but I mean if we take it as the boat just slides on

[00:56:46] through and you know the rain cloud shuts behind them and the monster can't get in or whatever

[00:56:52] the ritual is complete although it's been slightly disrupted for them vicarladriel not

[00:56:58] yeah part as a painting fully the rest of them complete the ritual we have to assume I suppose

[00:57:05] um that they do reach Valinot and that's kind of it but for gladriel she does not complete the ritual

[00:57:11] and that must be unheard of I would think so I would think so um I mean gladriel is an exceptional

[00:57:19] elf from beginning to end we know this yes from both the the series and from the books but

[00:57:27] she has enough self knowledge to know that she cannot truthfully complete this ritual I mean she

[00:57:36] talks about you know what am I supposed to do with you know Elrond has said well you can leave

[00:57:41] you know the war the conflict of darkness behind you she said what am I supposed to do with the

[00:57:45] one that's inside me mm-hmm yeah and it is interesting that she doesn't trust that there is healing

[00:57:52] in Valinot even for that you know I really would love it although I'm sure this isn't going to

[00:57:58] happen because I don't think they would have the rights I would love to see her of a conversation

[00:58:03] with Niannort excuse me not Niannort Nianna good thing Nianna don't talk to Niannort no no no no no no no

[00:58:11] no no no no no no no you will get a sensible word out of her amidst the weeping probably not but

[00:58:17] with Nianna pity in patience mm-hmm and how to grieve I don't think a lot of the deal knows a lot

[00:58:25] about that mm-hmm and I think that's why she is so conflicted and why she clings to that dagger

[00:58:34] because nobody has given her any notion of how to do this they've never had to grieve before

[00:58:42] so again how do they learn to do that well if you stuck around in Valinot I suspect that

[00:58:46] that would be part of Niannest has yeah and the argument of course is that all right her brother

[00:58:56] Finrod has died but dying does not mean the same for elves if she goes back to Valinot is he

[00:59:02] not going to be sitting by that tree waiting for her or the very least in Mendoza's hall yeah exactly

[00:59:08] a lot of listeners I've heard a lot of listeners and a lot of podcasts point this out

[00:59:13] and say you know why didn't she want to go back she could see Finrod again she could see

[00:59:17] you know her father and all the rest of it so there is some the some form of compulsion

[00:59:22] responsibility um it again in the texts she is too proud is what we get mostly you know she

[00:59:31] wants she doesn't want to be confined to one small island she wants her own realm

[00:59:36] to to rule to lead the order yes and that has been it sorry that was good I think first and second

[00:59:44] age Galadriel she is a warrior she has a role she has a role yeah she is and not only that but she

[00:59:52] looks upon the doors of the warriors eye you know to see oh here's here's some soldiers that I can

[00:59:57] rule a general's eye um I could definitely make some make some changes with with this group

[01:00:03] if they're willing to to follow me so but in this instance what they're presenting us is um

[01:00:11] she feels her task isn't done perhaps um she can't let go of the dagger I mean that's a really

[01:00:19] crucial piece of it for whatever reason maybe she has understand herself which is what makes a certain

[01:00:25] sacrifice at the very end of the first season all the more pretentious and to my mind a sigh of

[01:00:31] the real change that she is beginning to undergo after all she's been through yes but at this point

[01:00:39] I'm afraid that although we don't see it demonstrated as much perhaps I do think that vengeance

[01:00:46] is still one of her strongest drivers yes yeah at one point she said to Eldron when he says

[01:00:54] put up your sword she says without it to have mine to be that is bleak very and that's what

[01:01:02] she's taking into valenol you want to talk about being an outsider yeah you can't take that

[01:01:08] into valenol almost to the point of being taboo um unless in the end though or someone similar would

[01:01:15] come along and say let's go take a walk by the river and head to lorians gardens and you know

[01:01:22] actually melion you know because she was very close to melion in the first stage at least text

[01:01:27] Julie but again I don't think we're gonna see a melion in this series that seems unlikely

[01:01:33] which is too bad yeah who knows who knows what we'll get it's not like they've given us any ideas

[01:01:39] about the second series no they haven't I've seen other really absurd ideas which I think have

[01:01:45] origins in something other than definitely other than well I think the hasn't

[01:01:51] mentioned someone's wild imagination but or somebody who loves stirring pots oh yes probably the

[01:01:58] with the memory biggest possible wooden spoon so musically you know you're talking about how it

[01:02:06] that the reminders of you know the plow it's parting and the heavens opening the music is vocal

[01:02:14] yes the focus point of the music is the singing and the human voice

[01:02:19] and in all the different presentations I can think of this seems to be the most popular

[01:02:25] method of musically representing the elves which is a wonderful callback to the music of the

[01:02:34] Ainor oh yes this is what created the world the original choir the original choir and the

[01:02:41] original song and it is still being sung and who would know that song better than the elves

[01:02:48] right actually been in valley north um well I suspect the elves who even the avaraya must have

[01:02:54] some sense of it in their minds and so we get this beautiful beautiful melody I will I will make

[01:03:01] a confession here whenever I'm having trouble falling asleep at night I hear that singing in my head

[01:03:08] I just let that piece play as it were in my mental CD player over and over and over oh there's

[01:03:15] nothing wrong with that it is beautiful music yeah and interesting that she can't accept it

[01:03:23] but she leaves the ritual unfinished and I'm here to tell you as someone who has done rituals

[01:03:29] it's not good to leave partway through no it's it's it can be dangerous

[01:03:35] and depending on what the ritual is but the feeling of incompletion the feeling of you know

[01:03:42] loose ends dangling down of something being broken off it's really it's not it's not a good thing

[01:03:50] damaging to the psyche I would imagine at the very least at the very least and yet

[01:03:55] think of the psychic strength that she exhibited rightly or wrongly by backing away from all that

[01:04:05] literally reclaiming her weapon literally and diving into the water to do the largest

[01:04:13] Olympic swim ever yes the Olympics swim so you know very very strong will must be because she also

[01:04:22] I mean she is defying her hiking as well as breaking the ritual it there's all kinds of ramifications

[01:04:29] potentially for this and as you mentioned before what does that do to her company do you suppose

[01:04:37] how are they going to feel well they've already in a way you could say they already rebelled

[01:04:44] against her because they decided they could not do what she wanted them to do that's a good point

[01:04:49] so I think that they may well have been a bit of a sundering already yeah yeah but you can see

[01:04:57] that the the other elf whatever his name is cares enough about her that yeah he reaches his hand

[01:05:04] out to her and says come on take my hand yes he knows very well enough to know that she's about

[01:05:10] to leave them and tries to stop her yeah that's a great point so even in their refusal

[01:05:17] they still had this sense of connection yeah yeah which has to say something about her as a commander

[01:05:26] I think driven as she was to the point of you know exhaustion and severe damage perhaps to some of

[01:05:34] their well they did follow her for a very long time yeah that's one of the hardest things to convey

[01:05:41] in this series isn't it that they had been hunting for hundreds of years yes so it's not like they got

[01:05:46] fed up after a week in the snow no they've really had been there for a very very long time they'd

[01:05:53] followed her they'd fought with her they you know hunted with her so they've been together for

[01:05:59] extremely long period of time as you say that's very hard to convey in a TV show and they'd

[01:06:06] protected each other which it may be why that the second and command elf was reaching out to her

[01:06:14] to try to protect her because he believed that in fact she was in need of the healing the valina

[01:06:19] I could have survived yeah like that yeah so how would we sum up the kind of cultural information

[01:06:28] we've received from these rituals in the first episode hmm well else definitely low ceremony

[01:06:36] very much and formality uh-huh a form of courtesy more like a cortizee again I'm back to the

[01:06:47] Arthurian legends and and courtly behaviors and that sort of thing um they're hierarchical

[01:06:57] uh some of them are hierarchical you know it's not enough to be king but you have this almost

[01:07:03] you know ritualistic leader function um I'd say they're very good at it oh yeah very effective

[01:07:12] they've had a long time to practice fair point fair point yeah you wonder how many boats have

[01:07:18] gone off before this one indeed yeah I can't imagine this is the first one because they know

[01:07:23] what they're doing here this is that it looks like a well practiced ceremony yeah because what we as

[01:07:29] said earlier um it is clearly a formula so it's not a spontaneous creation therefore it has happened

[01:07:37] before and may well happen again we'll see your thoughts yeah um I think you're absolutely right on the

[01:07:47] the elves um it's not that the half-fits don't have ritual because they do but they're not as formal

[01:07:55] not as laid down in the same way as the elvish rituals are um the the rituals are also for

[01:08:03] different reasons um that the settled nature of the elves in lindon means that they've got the time

[01:08:10] to have uh and the space to have these sorts of ceremonies um whereas for the half-fits a lot of

[01:08:17] their rituals revolve around their survival their community uh their movement so it's a very

[01:08:24] different attitude I think towards ritual for them yes it's very interesting to contrast the two

[01:08:30] cultures one is very fixed and one is very mobile right so you necessarily gonna have a different

[01:08:36] attitude aren't you yeah and yet the major ritual that we see for the elves so far is about motion

[01:08:43] it is about travel it is about going away but maybe that's why it's such a big ceremony because

[01:08:48] it's such a big thing yes it's very much a break in the traditional traditional form yeah

[01:08:55] yeah the harfwoods um earthy is a word that comes to mind yeah um and simple as you said not simplistic

[01:09:07] but can you imagine you imagine Gilgale of Kraken a joke in the middle of his ceremony

[01:09:13] not so much so I think the harfwoods approach is a lot more joyful and yeah relaxed I mean they do

[01:09:22] have their limits uh they do I was gonna say that yes they're not it's not that they're not strict

[01:09:26] about their rituals because actually in many ways they are just a strict because a lot of their

[01:09:31] rituals are to do with community and survival and stepping outside of the ritual can mean danger

[01:09:37] to the community that's a very different thing to breaking ritual for the elves which is

[01:09:44] yeah it's highly symbolic whereas for the harfwoods it's really about survival that's that's a

[01:09:51] really great point I really like that and I'm thinking of a ritual that we're going to see

[01:09:56] of the harfwoods which was in fact the whole reason why I wanted to do this podcast in the first

[01:10:01] place um get there when we get there um that is disrupted um and there are definitely consequences

[01:10:07] from that um yeah indeed so you're right that you know ritual is important to the culture doing it

[01:10:14] regardless of what it looks like or how it's expressed yes I agree any other thoughts

[01:10:22] yep I think that's it for me for this episode okay I think it's it for me too so the

[01:10:30] the sinners please write it and let us know what you think any suggestions you might have for

[01:10:35] rituals for us to look at and anything else that you want to share with us we welcome your feedback

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[01:12:03] one cannot satisfy thirst by drinking seawater very well for now however