Preface: Beginnings

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Rings and Rituals, a podcast exploring the Rings of Power from a different

[00:00:17] perspective. I'm Marilyn, the librarian of Revindal. And I'm Sara, she's made in a Rohan.

[00:00:22] We're here to talk about the cultures of Pain and McKay series, The Rings of Power, as

[00:00:27] well as some aspects of Tolkien's legendarium which inspired them using the lens of ritual.

[00:00:32] And we're delighted that you've joined us. We'll be discussing what we mean by ritual, and

[00:00:37] then applying those concepts to different examples of ritual that we find in a TV series or

[00:00:41] in Tolkien's writings. We'll explore them using a set of questions to reveal how Pain and

[00:00:47] McKay saw the cultures that they were adopting in their series. I'll be sure to get in touch with

[00:00:51] us. A discussion of two is an adventure but we'd love to have some more voices join us. You can

[00:00:56] email us at ringsandritualsatthelorhounds.com or you can join our Rings and Rituals channel on the

[00:01:03] Lorehounds Discord. We'll mention all of these again at the end of the podcast and links will be

[00:01:08] included in the show notes. And we want you to know that we are a proud affiliate of the Lorehounds

[00:01:13] Barovian Broadcasting Network where you will find all sorts of interesting podcasts on TV,

[00:01:18] films, books, video games and other stories. Well here we are!

[00:01:24] So, great! Yeah, let's introduce ourselves to our listeners for a bit.

[00:01:28] Okay, who are you and how does Tolkien fit into your life?

[00:01:32] Well I'm, I suppose you want a full name me, I'm Dr. Sara Brown and I work for

[00:01:38] Signum University. I've been working for them since 2012 and Tolkien is my specialist subject.

[00:01:44] That's what I did my PhD on a bajillion years ago. Let's not go into how long it got out was.

[00:01:51] How does Tolkien fit into my life? Actually it would probably be easier to say how does my

[00:01:56] life fit into Tolkien because yeah, I think Tolkien is most of my life really. Apart from teaching

[00:02:05] a lot of Tolkien classes at Signum University, I also go to a lot of conferences, I give a lot

[00:02:12] of papers on Tolkien and I occasionally even get things published on Tolkien so that's pretty much

[00:02:20] how Tolkien fits into my life. What about you, Marilyn? Well I am a librarian emeritus from

[00:02:28] Colby College here in Central Maine and for 35 years often on I taught a course on Tolkien sources.

[00:02:35] So that was the most recent iteration if you will. I started reading Tolkien when I was 12

[00:02:42] but through advice of my dearest friend and heart sister and it's definitely been a part of my life

[00:02:47] for a very long time. After I retired in 2019 and then of course COVID hit, I discovered the

[00:02:55] world of podcasts and added more and more onto my feed and then discovered this podcast called

[00:03:01] the Prancing Pony podcast and thought oh wow you can even find podcasts about Tolkien this is pretty

[00:03:07] terrific. I was delighted when they took me on as a research assistant for time and then I discovered

[00:03:15] the lore hounds doing their six part series on the sources for the rings of power, the different

[00:03:25] stories and elements and things. And they posed a question to the audience in general and

[00:03:30] how could a teacher in a library and refuse to answer questions so I wrote back and they asked

[00:03:35] me on and you know the rest is history. Oh lovely. I suppose I should mention that I'm also

[00:03:43] a little bit involved with the Prancing Pony podcast. Just a tad just a tad.

[00:03:48] Well delightfully I was invited on for the first time last season and even more delightfully I was

[00:03:55] invited back for this season so an excellent sign I would say. I would say so yes they didn't go

[00:04:01] hmm thank you but no. So yes okay so before we get into what we're really doing with this podcast I

[00:04:13] think we need to establish a few guidelines. So Marilyn you being the librarian here I feel like

[00:04:20] we can go to you for these sorts of things. Can we define what we mean by ritual? Certainly ritual

[00:04:27] and its simplest form is a repeated action. It's usually intended to recognize and or bring about

[00:04:34] change. It often has symbolic content but not always brushing your teeth every night before bedtime

[00:04:41] is a ritual if not particularly sacred when perhaps unless you worship your teeth but you know

[00:04:47] it's important let's say given the cost of dental care I would say worshipping your teeth is

[00:04:51] probably no bad thing. I would say so too at least taking good care of them which is a form of

[00:04:56] worship perhaps. So ritual may be a form of meaning making and that meaning as you've just heard

[00:05:04] from our discussion about tooth brushing does not have to be religious or spiritual but it often is.

[00:05:09] Yeah so let's put this in the context of some real world examples then. So as Marilyn just said

[00:05:17] a ritual can be anything from a daily act like cleaning your teeth or preparing yourself for work

[00:05:23] to a one-off cultural event. Social practices, social rituals, festive events these are habitual

[00:05:31] activities that structure the lives of communities and groups and that are shared by and relevant

[00:05:36] to a lot of their members and they're significant because they reaffirm the identity of those who

[00:05:41] practice them as a group or a society and whether they're performed in public or in private

[00:05:47] they're closely linked to important events. Social and other practices can help to mark things

[00:05:54] like the passing of the seasons events in an agricultural calendar, the stages of a person's life

[00:06:01] they're closely linked to a community's worldview and it's perception of its own history

[00:06:06] and memory and they vary from small gatherings to large scale social celebrations and commemorations

[00:06:13] and these sorts of events involve a dazzling variety of forms. These can be worship rights, they

[00:06:19] can be rights of passage, birth, wedding or funeral rituals, Oze of Allegiance if you're a nor I'm

[00:06:26] looking at you. Traditional legal systems, traditional games and sports, kinship and ritual kinship

[00:06:33] ceremonies, settlement patterns, culinary traditions, goodness I need to put my false teeth in, seasonal

[00:06:40] ceremonies, practices that are specific to men or women only, hunting, fishing and gathering

[00:06:46] practices and loads more and they also include a wide variety of expressions and physical elements

[00:06:51] such as the making of promises, special gestures and words, recitations, songs or dances, special

[00:06:59] clothing, processions, animal sacrifice, special food all sorts of things. So some examples of famous

[00:07:07] rituals might include the Jewish Bar or Batmitzvah or Native American Sundance and other less religious

[00:07:15] rituals include things like blowing out candles on a birthday cake, that sort of thing. So

[00:07:22] there's rituals for all parts of our lives birth death coming of age, marriage, harvest,

[00:07:28] the new year. There's rituals to do things like inaugurate a president or to salute the fallen

[00:07:35] from exchanging wedding rings to scattering ashes. Rituals are a really significant part of

[00:07:41] all human culture. Indeed they are. So we should keep some of these points in mind as we ask the

[00:07:47] following questions of each ritual we cover across, large or small that we identify as we go through

[00:07:53] each episode of the series. So we'll be asking things like what is the design of the ritual?

[00:07:59] What is the intent of that ritual? What is the outcome? And I think particularly what does it

[00:08:05] tell us about the culture and the individuals in that culture? Well thanks, that was a really

[00:08:11] excellent summary. We're going to take a quick break now and when we come back we'll bring you the meat

[00:08:18] or the tofu for our vegan and vegetarian listeners without the coil sauce.

[00:08:33] All right welcome back and let's get started. We thought we'd begin with some elements from Tolkien's

[00:08:38] three great works, the Silmarillion, The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Even though there's very

[00:08:44] little over religious content in Tolkien generally there are plenty of rituals large and small scattered

[00:08:50] throughout Valinod, Valerian, Numenor and Middle-Earth. Let's pick a few and see what they tell us about

[00:08:57] the cultures that are engaged with these rituals. Sarah which one would you like to start us off with?

[00:09:02] I think I'd like to start with the green branch of return in Numenor. Right.

[00:09:09] Because this is one of those things that we see most in the story of Aldari and Orendus

[00:09:18] that we find in the unfinished tales. And it's a simple ritual but it has a lot of meaning to it.

[00:09:26] So it's the green bow of return and it was a branch from the Fragrantree Eulare.

[00:09:34] That's an evergreen tree. The leaves remain green in the sea air which of course is really important

[00:09:40] even after being cut from the tree itself. So it obviously had these great properties that enabled

[00:09:45] it to be carried by the ship and seen a still green for quite a long time. So to start off with

[00:09:56] the Eldar of Arisea had a tradition of placing a bow cut from this tree in the prow of their vessels

[00:10:02] and that was a mark of friendship with the Maya of the Sea. But where we really get to know it

[00:10:08] is in Numenor because when the elves were founding Numenor they brought both the tree and the

[00:10:16] tradition to the island and the customer rose that a green bow of Eulare which was usually cut by a

[00:10:24] woman of the captain's family, a close member. It should be set aboard a ship before it sets out

[00:10:29] from Port because for a ship to leave Harbour without a bow of return was considered a dangerous

[00:10:36] omen among the Numenorians. So it's also for the Numenorians it was a token of friendship with

[00:10:45] Osse and Uainan so lots of connections with the sea as we know the Numenorians were famed for being

[00:10:53] great sailors. I don't know if you want to join in there Marilin? Yeah what I like about this is it shows

[00:11:05] the degree and depth to which the early Numenorians respected and recognized Osse and Uainan

[00:11:14] and at that point in their history they were very close to the Valar and recognized that they

[00:11:23] were reliant upon them, that they were beholden to them and the notion that they could be protected

[00:11:30] by them to me expresses a recognition of connection if not reciprocity. The fact that it was a member

[00:11:39] of the captain's family and a woman in particular who put this branch on I find really very interesting

[00:11:46] because of course we have Uainan is a female feminine Maya. Right and to have Maya of both genders

[00:11:58] and maybe more than two is really quite fascinating to me. Right yeah um I also find it interesting

[00:12:08] that the bow comes from a tree that is evergreen particularly in the sea air and that the leaves

[00:12:17] stay on a cut branch and they stay green. Now we know if you lop a branch off your average tree those

[00:12:24] leaves are going to shrivel up and fall off fairly quickly so there must be some very special properties

[00:12:29] to this tree that the leaves will remain green for some time and in that I think we can see why it's

[00:12:36] called the bow of return what do you think? Yes oh definitely I'm you're also reminding me that

[00:12:42] at this time it's showing us how very close the new minorians were with the Eldar

[00:12:48] which again throughout their history changes but the returning piece I mean green is renewal

[00:12:55] right definitely and that's you know we see in northern hemisphere people now people will

[00:13:02] bring green bows into their homes before the winter solstice as a sign of renewal you know bringing

[00:13:08] the life in that will stay I mean obviously your Christmas tree doesn't last until whenever but

[00:13:14] at least it stays longer than as you say your average your average tree would do. Right yeah yeah

[00:13:20] and also it's carrying a piece of the land with you isn't it so even when you're far out to see

[00:13:25] on your ship out of sight of land because you're carrying a piece of the land with you it tethers you

[00:13:31] I suppose to do that yeah that's nice I like that I like that yeah I wonder I wonder because

[00:13:38] you're absolutely right that this is a sign of their connection with the Eldar I wonder if the

[00:13:45] later ships of the new minorians carried it or if it was part of the stuff that they dropped

[00:13:52] when they were backing away from the Eldar. I kind of think they were I mean I can imagine that

[00:14:01] I mean you know respect and and worship devils into superstition at some point so maybe out of

[00:14:09] superstition they would still follow the practice but certainly in the time of Eldariana Norendis

[00:14:17] it was viewed as very bad luck if you did not have that bow and you did not have a woman of your

[00:14:24] family put it on the ship for you and and in the story we see you know progressively bad things

[00:14:31] start to happen as the the placing of the bow becomes less and less frequent at least with Eldarians

[00:14:41] ventures and it also serves almost as a symbol of perhaps how the Valar felt about Eldarians'

[00:14:50] journeys and his behaviors on land and I mean this is the fascinating thing to me about symbols

[00:14:57] is that you can read them in so many ways and they can bring a really rich undercurrent to what seems

[00:15:05] to be a simple story on the surface right right because you can I think you can pinpoint

[00:15:14] the start of things going downhill with the tale of Aldarion and a rendis I mean quite apart from

[00:15:22] the fact that it's the best advert for divorce in middle earth you know come across there's all sorts

[00:15:29] of things that occur in Aldarion's time that are red flags for what's going to happen in the future

[00:15:37] one of them of course is that although what seems like a good thing which is he changes this notion

[00:15:45] that the only people who can take the throne are a son or a nearest male relative and he changes

[00:15:55] that law because he only has a daughter so that the daughter can and Cali may can actually inherit

[00:16:02] the throne but part of that is because he just wants to spite his wife I know you know so there's

[00:16:08] that which is not a good way to change a law let's face it but the other one is that of course

[00:16:16] a rendis disobeys the king tarman elder right to take oilari to Aldarion you know in the time when

[00:16:25] they were still happy you know twitch didn't last that long as happy as they ever were yeah yeah she

[00:16:33] did set it a number of times but then she stops and another woman was it the captain's wife

[00:16:44] yes captain's wife right used to bless the ships for a while but then Aldarion is the one who

[00:16:51] foresakes the tradition and instead he puts upon the prow an image of an eagle which was

[00:16:56] presented to him by kirdan boy isn't that a potent symbol right there because to my mind eagles

[00:17:04] yes they're man ways bird I don't know if anyone even thought about it in those terms but

[00:17:11] to me eagles became a symbol of imperialism and that's definitely the direction in which

[00:17:19] Aldarion and the new manorians generally were heading I mean again this is very early on but the

[00:17:25] beginnings of the different signs pointing in certain directions I agree okay did you want to

[00:17:33] pick a different one well I'm not going to be able to go into as great depth as you did on

[00:17:39] this one because we don't know very much about it but I'm interested in the dwarves carrying their

[00:17:46] king off the field of a number of tears oh that's a great moment well it's it's absolutely stunning

[00:17:53] isn't it yes completely unexpected um the dwarves were fierce fighters and they were the only ones

[00:18:00] who could really approach the dragon because they had their their masks their their helmets were

[00:18:07] also masks they were very used to working with fire and so they weren't quite as averse to it as

[00:18:12] humans were or elves I could in this case humans weren't around yet for the most part um although

[00:18:17] by that time they were weren't they but just in the middle of this fierce battle everybody stops

[00:18:24] what they're doing they go they pick up their king they form a line and they walk very slowly

[00:18:30] off the field of battle singing a dirge and I think everybody around them just kind of stopped

[00:18:37] and stared I mean the dragon was dead at this point so I guess it was okay to do that but it wow

[00:18:44] it just is such an amazing moment and so startling and unexpected so you have

[00:18:51] you have the dwarves you have the way they're honoring their king um they sing you know singing

[00:18:58] is so important in so many different rituals that we see and here I'm thinking ahead now

[00:19:03] to other times when the dwarves sing in this series that when we come to them you know let's

[00:19:08] remember this this moment um it's a very enclosed moment nobody dares interfere with them right

[00:19:19] they don't it's almost like a bubble in the middle of the bottle yes yes yes they don't invite any

[00:19:23] of their their comrades and arms to go with them um it is just a very very closed and ritual which I

[00:19:32] think also points to the dwarves is being a fairly insular culture just from the get-go and of course

[00:19:39] we know different stories about conflicts between the elves and the dwarves you know in their beginnings

[00:19:44] they were made by Aula not quite in despite of Elifatar but certainly without his express permission

[00:19:52] right in disobedience in disobedience basically or or in overreaching you could say Aula was

[00:19:59] demonstrating orphanage yes that he thought he had the capacity to put you know the spirit of life

[00:20:06] the flame in perishable into other beings and Aula said and Elifatar says look you only have your own

[00:20:13] you don't have any leftover to give to anyone else you know you hear flame as you're a flame and

[00:20:17] that's it and yet because you are willing as Aula said I see you know I was wrong I was presumptuous

[00:20:25] and shouldn't I just destroy these creatures of my hands and Aula and Elifatar says no look

[00:20:30] they shrank from your hammer I have given them life but they're not going to come before my children

[00:20:38] you know my my almost chosen ones if you will and so they can't wake up before them so they're

[00:20:44] going to have to sleep until their time comes um and so right there you have a potential source of

[00:20:52] conflict between the elves and the dwarfs and that just carries on through so many stories throughout

[00:20:58] the legendarium until it's healed by the comradeship of legolas and gimme right right which is a long way

[00:21:06] yeah that's a few years down the line just one or two just one or two well I wonder if you'd like

[00:21:12] me to read a paragraph of that moment absolutely okay definitely so this is in the chapter of the

[00:21:21] fifth battle near Nysa Noidiad last of all the eastern force to stand firm with the dwarfs of

[00:21:28] Bellagost and thus they won renown for the now grim with stood fire more hardily than either elves or

[00:21:35] men and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon and those

[00:21:41] stood them in great stead against the dragons and but for them Glaurong and his brood would have

[00:21:46] withered all that was left of the noldore but the now grim made a circle about him when he

[00:21:52] assailed them and even his mighty armor was not foolproof against the blows of their great axes

[00:21:58] and when in his rage Glaurong turned and struck down azakal lord of Bellagost and crawled over him

[00:22:06] with his last stroke azakal drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field

[00:22:13] and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him then the dwarfs raised up the body of azakal

[00:22:21] and bore it away and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dourge in deep voices as it were

[00:22:30] a funeral pomp in their country and gave no heed more to their foes and none dared to stay them

[00:22:37] incredible yeah yeah just an incredible moment and I just realized something interesting

[00:22:45] the slaying of a dragon is a signolally heroic action particularly in literature west

[00:22:53] York culture you know you have ziggard you have other dragon slayers here we have a dwarf dragon

[00:22:58] slayer well he doesn't kill Glaurong Glaurong is good that's true that's true but enough to get him

[00:23:05] off the field exactly I mean to actually get Glaurong have to flee the field I mean that is a

[00:23:10] massive thing it takes touring to actually kill him right but I mean this is a great deed

[00:23:18] so here we have a king that has fallen in battle and we know that for the dwarves that is the great

[00:23:25] thing isn't it yes yes so I also like the reminder that for dwarves the axe was the thing

[00:23:33] hmm yes that was the sign of fire choice weapon for dwarves and they also stood out well like here

[00:23:42] yeah right but there's something about falling in battle for the dwarves that seems to be so

[00:23:50] momentous yeah we think about you know in the hobbit when thawing falls and what happens around that

[00:23:58] and we think in in the unfinished tales when we hear about during the second and it's also in

[00:24:06] of durin's folk in appendix a of the lord of the rings when we hear about him falling in battle

[00:24:15] over the body of king brand yes and this of course is all going on during the time when we're

[00:24:22] following Frodo and Sam down into Mordor and and the battle and how we're going on yeah what we

[00:24:27] don't get told is is the fact that there's all these battles going on up north yes until you know

[00:24:33] Gandalf says you know he was an incredible dwarf he was immensely was well over 200 and yeah

[00:24:39] he was wielding his axe like a young a young dwarf so you can be sad that he died Gandalf says

[00:24:48] but you should be proud of the way in which he died so there's there's a lot I think around that

[00:24:56] for the dwarves one of the things i'm really looking forward to when we get into the rings program

[00:25:02] is looking at all the rituals we see in the dwarves in there absolutely a lot of what they do seems to

[00:25:10] have cultural practice attached to it i think so and a number of the survivors of bella

[00:25:17] gost actually wound up going to chasadum and so their maver will be the descendants of bella

[00:25:24] gost dwarves maybe even some who fought that battle in chasadum now yeah i like

[00:25:32] i know that when Tolkien first started the hobbit and imagined the dwarves he he referred to them as

[00:25:37] being the grims fairy tale of course but even more their names in particular of course were inspired

[00:25:42] from the north eddett what inspired they were plucked off the page practically in the same border

[00:25:48] and for the north and particularly for the Vikings the most shameful death you could die was to be

[00:25:54] of old age in bed you know for them they wanted to die a battle winning or losing whatever but

[00:26:02] that's that was their most honorable death if they could think of and so you reminded me of that when

[00:26:07] you're talking about the heroism of dine and and uh and also the honor shown to the king as he was

[00:26:14] carried off the field right yeah and that moving if not eliminated him and stayed them yeah yeah

[00:26:23] which means they can call up a presence of some sort exactly right i mean they'd already been

[00:26:29] pretty significant in the battle because they could face the dragons when when the

[00:26:34] else and humans had to flee but even more so to be the one to drive the knife in and and you know

[00:26:43] get rid of this one trouble um awestriking to begin with and then this um this really it's a

[00:26:49] dirge it's a funeral possession in dirge um it's like wow really in the middle of battle you're

[00:26:57] doing this battle okay we get it and just as a little aside isn't it remarkable how many

[00:27:06] monstrous creatures are i'm not not always killed but grievously wounded by stabbing to the belly

[00:27:15] yes yeah we have glowerung here uh and then again when he's killed by two actually killed um we

[00:27:21] have smoug of course who's hit by the arrow in in the breast right um we also have shilob

[00:27:29] who's stabbed in her vast swollen bag of a belly um well we certainly got a lot of meat out

[00:27:39] of that dwarvest discussion which is great um would you like to give us another one oh let's talk

[00:27:46] about hobbit birthdays oh yes yes yes yes because hobbit birthdays are wonderful aren't they

[00:27:53] and we were talking right at the top where we were saying about how blowing up birthday candles

[00:27:58] and marking birthdays and things like that these are original um but in our western culture the

[00:28:07] usual ritual is that when it's someone's birthday you bring them presents right for the hobbits

[00:28:15] is the other way around when it's your birthday you give presents and i actually i kind of like that

[00:28:21] you know i think that's rather wonderful because you're supposed to get joy out of giving a present

[00:28:28] right it's always fun to get one but let's face it it does say in the text that you could pretty

[00:28:33] much guarantee being um invited to someone's birthday quite a few times per week right right

[00:28:39] gonna end up with a lot of presents a lot of madams um yes i love the way they circulate around the

[00:28:44] community right when wonder what happens if you suddenly get back you know green at marigold's

[00:28:50] teapot that you really wanted to get rid of that's okay it can just be a re-wrap for the next time around

[00:28:57] there we go exactly so you know it's the old reuse reduce recycle which you you have to admire

[00:29:04] these days um hobbits character would certainly chime well with that practice i think so yes yeah

[00:29:11] and i like the idea because it feels more community um with the way in which they

[00:29:20] they give presents away on their own birthdays but these presents circulate and they keep moving

[00:29:26] around various families as everybody goes mmm look what i'm on then they pass it onto the next person

[00:29:33] um but i just think that's wrong and joyous that's what happens um because it is the opposite

[00:29:40] of what we're used to yeah but i can see it as being actually rather a nice thing absolutely very

[00:29:46] very much again building the fabric of the community um not a whole lot of us and tachias display

[00:29:53] because they were usually you know pretty simple things and you know if if great at marigold's teapot

[00:29:59] went around for the sixth time you could just quietly put it in the museum in knickledelving right

[00:30:03] exactly would you love to have gone around the museum of knickledelving and see what stuff was

[00:30:08] in that splendid delightful absolutely yeah of course billbo's birthday party was was a particular

[00:30:16] magnificent we know that but i suspect there were still some other very similar elements between his

[00:30:21] birthday party and other birthday parties right of course i mentioned the cake and the candles

[00:30:27] obviously food obviously i mean that's that's just a given um the fact that it was intergenerational

[00:30:37] birthday parties are not just for children right right they're for the whole community so you have

[00:30:44] an idea of a culture that is not ashamed of enjoying itself even even amongst the grownups that um

[00:30:52] you know the pleasure of seeing friends and sharing presents and food and all the rest of it um

[00:30:58] it goes for everybody not just for the littles right yeah um because i mean obviously we do mark

[00:31:05] our birthdays as we get older i was trying to forget how many we've had

[00:31:10] and we're fearing degrees of emotional or partially yes um but we do still mark our birthdays

[00:31:16] but we don't tend to have the kinds of parties that we throw for kids right you know kids that you

[00:31:22] know they they have these fun parties with games and as you said cake and singing and dancing and

[00:31:32] um lots and lots of the kind of food you wouldn't normally have a huge amounts of sugar so the

[00:31:39] parents are driven crazy for a lot of the words but here uh in the shire um even grown up hobbits do

[00:31:47] that right um it just it just feels like it's a little bit more joyous in some ways yes

[00:31:53] and also the fact that parents love to bring their children because bringing up young hobbits took a

[00:31:58] lot of profanter yes yeah well they're not absolutely yeah so if you if you manage to get your kids

[00:32:05] to a few birthday parties like billbo's then i mean you can feed them up for a while can't you

[00:32:10] definitely saves on the food bills and of course only people with special friends like Gandalf

[00:32:15] can do things like fireworks but i'm sure there were other equivalencies that that people could do

[00:32:21] yeah yeah this is this is a culture that loves celebrating yes they seem to enjoy coming together as

[00:32:29] a community even though there's all kinds of backfants conversations going on the rest of the week

[00:32:34] with varying degrees of kindness i suppose um yeah it's i i have a hard time imagining

[00:32:43] this sort of birthday party going on saying Gandalf um yes yeah because i mean Minas Tirith always

[00:32:53] strikes me as having a sense of kind of grace to rility about it i mean obviously by the time we get

[00:32:59] there um in the Lord of the Rings the children have mostly been sent away right but that just adds

[00:33:07] to that sense of of this stultifying stillness in the city um and yeah you do wonder if they ever

[00:33:17] you know kick up an ankle and have have a bit of a sing song down the tavern how many is up

[00:33:24] yeah there's a certain which would say yes uh whereas i can see the rohurim living it large

[00:33:31] oh absolutely unquestionably unquestionably yeah and you can you can sense them having a good old

[00:33:38] wasaille at somebody's birthday for sure and perhaps you know in the city it may be one way but out

[00:33:44] on the countryside in the feasts of gondor i can picture them you know having birthday parties with

[00:33:50] flowers and dances and i don't know if they know the springal ring but i'm sure they have their own

[00:33:54] version of it so yeah okay would you like to pick out a last one yes i seem to get all the

[00:34:03] funeral events today that's interesting i wonder how that happened but it also is uh in rohans so

[00:34:10] that picks up with what you were saying about kwarfing ale and wasailing the birthdays this is the

[00:34:15] funeral of king thayoden and i don't have the text memorized and i don't have it to hand but i do

[00:34:23] you do of course you do i can name the things that i recall in particular um of course horses are

[00:34:30] involved you know that the king's body is drawn and awaying by horses although of course he had to

[00:34:36] make the journey from gondor to rohans before the funeral started but the the kings nights were

[00:34:44] riding their horses around the burial mounds um if we believe the peter jackson films and there's no

[00:34:53] reason not to in this particular instance because they actually took the text i believe from

[00:34:58] um an old english text they will sing at the mounds as the the person is being buried

[00:35:07] they bury them with their weapons and the this is particularly poignant to me um the king's scope

[00:35:19] his singer sang one last song in honor and praise of thayoden and then he never made another song again

[00:35:30] you know all these markers of finality um i'm reminded of in some of the um english practices

[00:35:40] the rod at state is broken and put into the grave along with the the lord who you served

[00:35:46] who died um and then afterwards we have a party which you know starts off fairly solemnly but it's

[00:35:57] in the great hall it's a feast because the continuity is so strong you know we've just had

[00:36:04] the funeral year feast of the previous king and now we're raising our cups to the new king

[00:36:11] sort of about the king is dead long with the king so the continuity is very strong there right

[00:36:15] and again the glorious death he didn't die of old age he didn't die unmanned as it were and this was

[00:36:24] one of the things that aewon was so uh uh concerned with and stricken by that you know her uncle and

[00:36:32] the great king of this people was going to go into dotage and die and she considered that a

[00:36:38] shameful death um instead you have a warrior king calls his people six thousand spears to sun landing

[00:36:48] and it that's a charge that's almost certain to lead to death they're gravely outnumbered in terms

[00:36:53] of numbers of warriors and fighters but they do it anyway because they swore and oath

[00:37:01] and this is one of the few times i can think of in which keeping of a sworn oath is actually a very

[00:37:07] good thing throughout the legendary ohs can be really tricky you know again look at it you feo

[00:37:13] and all yeah well and and the dead man have done landing and um exactly yes you others like that but

[00:37:21] the oath that's fallen between kirion and aol um at lndiel's tomb is a wonderful example of an

[00:37:33] oath done right uh and it's notable actually because you can read this in the unfinished tales but

[00:37:38] it's notable that kirion um after the um aothaeod which because it's before they they become the roherem

[00:37:47] um how fulfilled what they pledged to do for uh gondor um kirion says well i'm going to reward you

[00:37:55] obviously i'm paraphrasing a bit i'm going to reward you but i'm gonna go away for a bit and just

[00:38:00] consider exactly how i'm going to reward you right and then he comes back and he invites aol uh and

[00:38:07] um and uh and a few others to to witness and he takes them up a hill and he stops partway

[00:38:16] and then he says again along the lines of um so i'm going to give you this land

[00:38:23] and if you will he uses that language which is so similar to to pharameer um in that uh in

[00:38:30] in the chapter the uh the steward and the king um to aewen if you will uh you can become king here

[00:38:38] and we will be best bros right that's obviously not taken straight out of the text um and

[00:38:44] wasn't it all dangles sex and singing best bros could it could it be i might be mistrating

[00:38:49] and then one of them want to ask one of your uh colleagues at singen and i will do that

[00:38:53] teachers they know they know pharameer than i do so yes no doubt they can put me right um but

[00:38:59] when aol says that would be great because we don't have a lot of land up north we want to come back

[00:39:05] down south only then just kirion take aol and his aesquire and the rest up into the sacred place

[00:39:17] um that is secret uh and the a location of which has been passed from pharameer to son

[00:39:23] first among the kings and now among the ruling steward and it's there in the sacred place that

[00:39:29] the oath is exchanged you don't go there until you have a purpose and an intention exactly because

[00:39:35] you can't take strife there the place is sacred uh kirion and aol are the only ones who have swords

[00:39:43] in that space but they don't carry the swords personally they're esquires bear the swords with them

[00:39:50] so they are symbolically armed but not actually armed interesting yeah so what does that say about

[00:39:57] their culture what does that say about their culture do you think um that there is a recognition

[00:40:05] that the bearing of arms is a significant element of who they are um but that they will

[00:40:12] lay them aside for something that is this sacred this important um because this is also how you

[00:40:21] declare absolute friendship yes yes to put your sword to one side uh and everybody who came with

[00:40:30] them into that space was unarmed um i mean it's such a sign of trust and also it's a huge deal

[00:40:40] that kirion actually takes aol and his men into that sacred space incredible because he would not

[00:40:47] take a single gandorian in it because it's not the place for them right right yeah and now i'm

[00:40:54] thinking of the menald karma it always reminds me of the menald karma absolutely um because he speaks

[00:41:01] in this place right and in fact from the moment where kirion tells aol what it is he wants to offer

[00:41:07] an aol says yes please when they go up into the sacred space they go up in silence right and then

[00:41:13] the only ones who speak the uh at all are kirion and aol speaking the oath so it's really similar

[00:41:21] actually and talking even in the description of the landscape uh right off that hill

[00:41:28] he even in amongst that talks about what season it is um so again like the menald karma going up

[00:41:37] in the menald karma was for certain seasons to do certain rituals and you went up in silence

[00:41:42] and to bring it all the way back to the green bell return this was where you saw some some

[00:41:49] lots of coming together right of aldarian and arindus in fact wasn't that where they decided they

[00:41:57] guess in fact they they would marry right after after they came down from the place of silence of course

[00:42:04] and you know made made their their pledge to one another and then eventually it was made public

[00:42:10] yeah right um so i've uh i've got here that little section of the aden's actual funeral

[00:42:17] good so i would love to read some of this to you um okay at length after 15 days of journey the

[00:42:27] wane of king thayadan passed through the green fields of rohan and came to edirass and there they all

[00:42:32] rested the golden hall was arrayed with fair hangings and it was filled with light and there was held

[00:42:39] the highest feast that it had known since the days of its building for after three days the men

[00:42:44] of the mark prepared the funeral of thayadan and he was laid in a house of stone with his arms

[00:42:50] and many other fair things that he had possessed and over him was raised a great mound covered with

[00:42:57] green turves of grass and of white evermind and now there were eight mounds on the east side of the

[00:43:03] barrow field then the riders of the king's house upon white horses rode round about the barrow

[00:43:11] and sang together a song of thayadan thingel's son that gl요ina his minstrel made and he made no other

[00:43:18] song after the slow voices of the riders stirred the hearts even of those who did not know the

[00:43:24] speech of that people but the words of the song brought a light to the eyes of the folk of the

[00:43:29] mark as they heard again a father thunder of the whoves of the north and the voice of ale crying

[00:43:35] above the battle upon the field of calibrant and the tale of the kings rolled on and the horn

[00:43:41] of hell was loud in the mountains until the darkness came and king thayadan arose and rode through

[00:43:47] the shadow to the fire and died in splendor even as the sun returning beyond hope gleaned upon

[00:43:54] mindoluein in the morning out of doubt out of dark to the days rising he rode singing in the sun

[00:44:02] sword unsheathing hope he rekindled and in hope ended over death over dread over doom lifted

[00:44:10] out of loss out of life unto long glory but Mary stood at the foot of the green mound and he wept

[00:44:18] and when the song was ended he arose and cried sayadan king sayadan king farewell as a father you

[00:44:25] were to me for a little while farewell there you are and now we have to have a pause so we can all

[00:44:33] wipe our streaming eyes no it's not I'm not crying there's just rain on my computer screen oh okay

[00:44:39] okay sorry so here is a culture that really values its history yes they're reciting it back to

[00:44:50] what they consider to be the earliest days of its founding and they recite all the great heroes

[00:44:57] and all the events that happen to commemorate to remember because this is their almost exclusively

[00:45:03] in oral culture I know I'm quite sure that some of the the rulers are literate but and so words

[00:45:09] matter right and maybe that's part of why it seems that when the rohierum take oaths it usually turns

[00:45:18] out pretty well yes yes maybe so that's a really good having such a respect for the words

[00:45:26] and they talk about how they can tell when someone's lying to them you know that first encounter

[00:45:31] between ame and and the three hunters he says I see that you were speaking the truth because we

[00:45:37] are true speakers and something can always tell a lot I mean I hadn't I hadn't again once again

[00:45:44] I hadn't really thought about this before until I heard you reading it out loud I really think that

[00:45:48] reading it out loud has such a powerful impact music you can't beat Tolkien's own words can you

[00:45:54] well no of course not I mean I know my paraphrasing is awesome but you can't be talking to

[00:45:59] words it's an awesome paraphrase also an awful not sure which one yeah yeah well bit of both

[00:46:09] little column A little column B right exactly why not they love music they do they have

[00:46:17] minstrels yes you know and they it's not a dark ceremony the hall is filled with light

[00:46:26] it's golden you know there's a lot of images of light and gold and sunrise out of dark out of

[00:46:31] doom and into the sunrise right I can't picture anybody wearing black to a funeral no because

[00:46:39] this is a celebration exactly yes it's sad you know people are weeping etc etc but this is a

[00:46:45] celebration of a life that was lived well mostly you know because there was that little blip at the

[00:46:52] end but he overcame that but the death was glorious and we know that in their culture that is

[00:46:57] incredibly important right and the song that is sung is a living song because it begins with

[00:47:03] the telling of the tale of A all and it moves all the way through hellman down and then that has

[00:47:08] the story of Thade and added on to the end of it and we know that AMS song will be added

[00:47:15] to the end of it one day right right because Thade and there's no part of the song exactly so

[00:47:22] oh and guess how this whole universe was created in song yes we've made that connection before

[00:47:31] either so what else can we see of the culture of Ro here in this wonderful ritual

[00:47:42] it will my mind's gone blank so well I mean there's the loyalty yes and it's person to person

[00:47:50] you know Mary kept the arms of the king by which I don't mean his limbs like his weapons that's

[00:47:58] a gross visual well it for some weird reason it popped up in the may head when it said he kept the

[00:48:03] arms of the king or he was buried with his arms and I was thinking oh I'm glad that's a good thing

[00:48:12] yeah and of course we have the the symbol mooner the ever-mind flower right that grows over the

[00:48:18] mounds and that's such a beautiful part of it this simple white flower that covers these burial

[00:48:27] mounds I just find that an invocative image yeah very much of the green and white of the chalk

[00:48:35] country that I think Tolkien associated with with the ro hereum you know the the chalk horse on

[00:48:41] muffin Hill being a really important symbol for him somewhere I've heard a story of Christopher

[00:48:49] being taken to that place with his father and how deep an impression it made on him and of

[00:48:56] course there there are mounds kings mounds in that region too so all those things kind of tied

[00:49:01] together right and I do think it's important that the flower is white with all of that symbolism

[00:49:10] that comes with that that sense of the washing away of the the cares of the world and peace

[00:49:17] and tranquility all of those sorts of things that come along with that image of white

[00:49:23] yeah it's just I just in my mind I have that vivid contrast of the white and the green

[00:49:29] and of course those are the colors on the on the flag of Rolan the white horse in the green field

[00:49:37] yep yeah anything else I think we have mind that gloriously I love the fact that we've managed to

[00:49:50] make connections to various other texts and various other moments so you know we're focusing on

[00:49:56] on one particular ritual but showing how that is seen in in other parts of the legendarium so

[00:50:02] I'm looking forward to exploring these in much greater depth as we carry on sure no it's going to be

[00:50:08] I think it's going to be fun so listeners you tell us did you like this was this good and what rituals

[00:50:17] do you like to see us discuss either in the legendarium or from episode one or the rings of power

[00:50:23] a shadow of the past that's the beginning from you

[00:50:26] so that's it for this episode we hope it's given you an idea of what we plan to do and we hope we've

[00:50:36] given you a large appetite for it right in and let us know what you think any suggestions you

[00:50:42] might have for rituals to look at and anything else you'd like to share with us we welcome your

[00:50:46] feedback at rings and rituals all one word and and is spelled out at the lorehounds.com

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