Severance 0101 - Good News About Hell

[00:00:02] Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay?

[00:00:36] John and David from The Lorehounds will join us. Do please visit thelorehounds.com, check out the many, many fine podcasts that they produce, and consider becoming a Patreon subscriber.

[00:00:49] Finally, before we get to the conversation about Severance, I ought to mention that my co-host Steve Osborne will be doing a couple shows in New York City next week.

[00:00:58] So if you happen to be in the NYC area, check out the West Side Comedy Club on October 25th, and the Talon Bar in Brooklyn on October 26th.

[00:01:10] Alright, here is my conversation with Steve about Episode 1 of Season 1 of Severance.

[00:01:18] I got onto this computer, which I haven't used in a while, and all of a sudden, all of the icons on the computer are twice as big as they usually are?

[00:01:31] Mmm.

[00:01:34] You would...

[00:01:34] Having a stroke.

[00:01:35] You wouldn't think...

[00:01:37] You wouldn't think that that would throw me off as much as it has.

[00:01:42] But, uh...

[00:01:42] Yeah, I'd probably just... I'd walk... I'd left the house if I saw that.

[00:01:46] I'm like...

[00:01:48] I'm looking at these things like...

[00:01:50] Like, I kind of feel like they're the scary numbers on the Severance screens.

[00:01:56] This is not my beautiful podcast.

[00:01:59] Alright, I am going to...

[00:02:01] Uh...

[00:02:02] Your voice is fine.

[00:02:03] I'm just going to turn down my volume a little bit.

[00:02:06] Okay.

[00:02:06] Because there's only so much of you that I can take.

[00:02:10] Okay.

[00:02:11] Well, I'm actually going to turn your volume up.

[00:02:14] Oh, my.

[00:02:15] Alright.

[00:02:16] Alright, so...

[00:02:17] Are we...

[00:02:18] Okay, so this is a known rewatch, obviously, because we've talked about Severance before.

[00:02:23] Are we going to try to...

[00:02:25] Are we...

[00:02:26] I forget...

[00:02:26] Are we just behaving as if, like, hey, look, you're...

[00:02:30] We're going to...

[00:02:30] We're going to spoil some things if you haven't watched it.

[00:02:33] So...

[00:02:33] Yeah.

[00:02:33] Are we going to try to take it as its own entity?

[00:02:35] My feeling is that what we'll do is we'll take it episode by episode and try to avoid spoilers.

[00:02:43] And then what we'll do is at the end of the program...

[00:02:46] At the end of each episode, we'll do, like, a spoiler warning and we'll, you know, we'll have a section for people that don't mind spoilers.

[00:02:56] We'll maybe, you know, analyze the episode in light of larger story arcs.

[00:03:02] Right, right.

[00:03:03] Because, you know, my guess is most people have watched this show and then they're, you know, they're kind of interested in season two at this point.

[00:03:11] So we'll...

[00:03:11] Right, right.

[00:03:12] So we will have an opportunity to talk about that stuff.

[00:03:15] But for folks that are just using this as a companion pod for the first time, then we don't spoil anything.

[00:03:22] Sounds good.

[00:03:24] Shall we count it down?

[00:03:25] Sure.

[00:03:27] Five.

[00:03:28] Four.

[00:03:29] Three.

[00:03:31] Two.

[00:03:32] One.

[00:03:34] So, Steve, I like waffles.

[00:03:36] Okay.

[00:03:37] So I feel like I would be inclined to get competitive about waffles.

[00:03:43] All right.

[00:03:44] My feeling, because I know that you're not a big waffle fan.

[00:03:48] No.

[00:03:49] My feeling is that if there was a waffle party, you might get competitive just because there was a party attached to it.

[00:03:58] Or maybe just because there is an opportunity to be competitive.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:03] You mean in terms of, like, competing to get the waffle party?

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Like, would you...

[00:04:07] Like, you're not into waffles, but would you get competitive if said competition led to a waffle party?

[00:04:17] Yeah.

[00:04:17] So here's how I work.

[00:04:20] If you said, hey, you're welcome to compete for an opportunity for a waffle party, immediately my thought is, well, I'm fine with that.

[00:04:27] But then, if I was to find out that someone like yourself or anybody else in, like, the office or whatever the situation was, like, super excited about it, I'm like, oh, the only thing, you know, my dislike for waffles is nowhere near my enjoyment of taking other people's enjoyment away.

[00:04:45] So the idea that I could compete to win a waffle party and just sit there and just go, like, you got anything else besides waffles?

[00:04:52] Like, that to me, and, like, while everybody's watching, like, to me, that's, like, apex predator move.

[00:04:56] Well, see, all right, so that's good.

[00:04:59] Because we have played a lot of fantasy baseball against each other.

[00:05:04] Yeah.

[00:05:05] And so you know that if I'm competing for the waffle, I'm not just going to compete, I'm going to talk about it.

[00:05:12] I'm going to tell you why I'm going to win the waffle party, why you suck, and maybe that will spur your competitive spirit as well.

[00:05:20] Yeah.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] Competing, like, some people like to win, and that's why they compete.

[00:05:26] Other people like to make other people lose.

[00:05:28] I think I probably, somewhere in the latter category.

[00:05:31] Okay.

[00:05:33] All right.

[00:05:33] So that's good.

[00:05:35] So it was, it's not going to work for you just as a carrot on its own.

[00:05:39] But if the carrot might include someone else's suffering, then you're in it for the Schadenfreude, is what you're saying.

[00:05:48] Man, I, you know, so there's a shout out to Zach Sherwin.

[00:05:52] He has this wonderful crossword puzzle.

[00:05:55] Like, it's a crossword show.

[00:05:57] Like, it's, he creates these elaborate, like, kind of pop culture-y crossword puzzles that are interactive.

[00:06:03] And he brings three comics or three people up to compete.

[00:06:07] And he makes it very clear to the comics in the green room.

[00:06:11] And he makes it very clear to the audience that this is not, this is not a competitive thing.

[00:06:15] Sure, we're playing against each other, but it's not meant to be competitive.

[00:06:18] It's, it's all part of this, like, elaborate kind of comedic narrative that he's put together.

[00:06:23] And he's done it in a game show format.

[00:06:25] And I immediately heard, like, beat these other two people.

[00:06:30] Like, and embarrass them in front of everybody.

[00:06:34] And, and then he happened to remind me that it's not competitive.

[00:06:37] And I said, you're right, it's not.

[00:06:38] I'm smoking these people.

[00:06:43] If there was a waffle party, and it's not just waffles, it's a waffle party.

[00:06:50] What would you, what would you expect to make it a party?

[00:06:54] I mean, clearly the waffles have to be part of it, right?

[00:06:58] And then you would expect the things that go with the waffles.

[00:07:01] But in order to make it a waffle party, what other accoutrement would have to be included in such, such a party?

[00:07:10] Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking live band.

[00:07:14] Okay.

[00:07:15] Like, and I'm thinking like big band, right?

[00:07:16] You know, like big horn section, the whole thing.

[00:07:21] And, and so the thing is, is to win a waffle party.

[00:07:24] So like, so these are all the questions, I suppose.

[00:07:26] So, because then again, this is what I think episode one does brilliantly is it, it starts, it provides you more questions than answers, right?

[00:07:35] And, and the waffle party is a perfect example of that because it's a small office.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:41] Right.

[00:07:42] And to win the waffle party, it suggests a certain level of exclusivity, right?

[00:07:48] Like these other people are not going to attend or do you get to sit like on a throne during the waffle party?

[00:07:54] Exactly.

[00:07:54] So it's like, so that's the question, right?

[00:07:56] Like, is it a waffle party where everybody, okay, look, good news.

[00:07:59] You won the office, a waffle party.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:03] But because you won, there's like an extra level for you, right?

[00:08:07] Like you either get, like everybody else gets a waffle while you just get like unlimited waffles, right?

[00:08:12] Or everyone has to watch you eat the waffle.

[00:08:16] Or you just eat waffles while they all fight to the death.

[00:08:21] I mean, or, or it's, no, you get to have your own waffle party and you get your own guest list, right?

[00:08:26] You can choose to bring the people from the office, but you know, you can also just like, you know, you get some people from, from the neighborhood.

[00:08:34] Come on, hang out.

[00:08:35] Right.

[00:08:36] But see, in this world, we know that, or we're finding out in this episode that like they're, you know, they don't know anybody in the outside world.

[00:08:45] So the, the, the party has to be, they don't even know everyone that works at Lumen.

[00:08:48] They may know like six people in the entire company at this point.

[00:08:52] Right.

[00:08:52] It takes Mark, I think what, I think it took him six minutes from elevator to, to office is what I think of six to seven minutes.

[00:09:01] And it's in this labyrinthian, you know, and very like, I mean, and I, I, that was pretty, pretty interesting too, as you're walking through and like, he knows his way.

[00:09:10] Right.

[00:09:10] And, and it's such a, yeah.

[00:09:14] A comparison to where, you know, when we are introduced to Helly, who has no idea where she is at all.

[00:09:18] And he's, but he's fully oriented in this place and he knows how to get to exactly where he needs to get.

[00:09:24] And, you know, whereas the outer version of him would have no idea.

[00:09:27] Right.

[00:09:28] But so like, so, so they, they know how to navigate.

[00:09:30] They don't know everybody.

[00:09:31] There's so many different rooms.

[00:09:36] I mean, he's walking by rooms and, but he only has this one office with, with.

[00:09:41] And he never hesitates.

[00:09:43] His memory is such that he knows every turn.

[00:09:46] He never, you know, he never like, you know, looks, looks behind his shoulder.

[00:09:51] I, did I go the right way?

[00:09:52] There's nothing like that.

[00:09:53] One more thing about the waffle party and then we can move on.

[00:09:56] But we can do a thousand things about the waffle party.

[00:09:58] At this stage in the game, I'm in, I'm imagining that this waffle party is a pretty amazing party.

[00:10:07] But for me, if I'm going to be into a waffle party, I want to be involved in the making of the waffle.

[00:10:14] I want there to be a waffle maker, a waffle iron that's heated up.

[00:10:21] And I want to have just all kinds of possible ingredients for this.

[00:10:26] I want there to be the sort of a basic batter, but then I want there, I want to choose what goes in my waffle to me.

[00:10:33] For me, that's what would make me happy in a waffle party.

[00:10:39] You want to iron your own waffle?

[00:10:41] I do because I want to sort of judge how dark it gets.

[00:10:49] I don't like a super dark brown crispy experience.

[00:10:55] To me, that makes the syrup do too much work in sort of making it a little bit soggy.

[00:11:01] I really want a light brown waffle.

[00:11:05] And I don't know why this makes a difference to me, but I do want a circular waffle.

[00:11:09] I don't want...

[00:11:10] Okay, I was just going to ask about shape preference.

[00:11:12] I don't know why that makes it...

[00:11:13] I want my pizzas to be in a circle.

[00:11:15] I want my waffles to be in a circle.

[00:11:18] It's not like I won't partake if they're in a square shape, but I look askance at it.

[00:11:23] I'm looking at it thinking, this better be pretty good.

[00:11:26] This better be pretty good if you're going to play with the shape on me.

[00:11:30] See, I guess, and this is because maybe I'm not as deep into waffle culture and flapjack universe as so many of you are.

[00:11:41] To me, it seems like you would want the square waffle to differentiate.

[00:11:46] Otherwise, they're just trying to be a pancake.

[00:11:48] No, I get it.

[00:11:49] I get it.

[00:11:50] Logically, that makes sense.

[00:11:53] My heart is telling me...

[00:11:54] I feel like Ego went a long way to get people conditioned to the round waffle.

[00:11:58] I think that's probably right.

[00:12:00] For me, there's a certain beauty of having the square shapes internally and then that full-on crucifix in the middle, but then sort of a Celtic circle around the crucifix.

[00:12:15] You know, this show has a lot of religious themes.

[00:12:19] I didn't think of the waffle as sort of a...

[00:12:22] Yeah, typically the waffle is considered...

[00:12:25] The waffle is...

[00:12:26] This is my waffle broken for you.

[00:12:30] This goes back...

[00:12:31] Drink of the syrup.

[00:12:32] This goes back to Spanish lore.

[00:12:35] Well, so when I was at IHOP, a friend of mine or colleague was leaving to move and he said he wanted to get a bunch of comedians together at his favorite breakfast place.

[00:12:48] And so we met at IHOP, which, you know, all right, different strokes.

[00:12:53] And on the wall was a poster that said, be the pancake that you wish to see in the world.

[00:13:05] Really?

[00:13:06] I thought it was pretty...

[00:13:07] You know, I know this is not like an actual Gandhi quote.

[00:13:11] Like, I know it's sort of a paraphrasing, right?

[00:13:13] But it's so, you know, culturally attributed to Gandhi that you are now...

[00:13:22] Most people are going to read that as a Gandhi quote, but with pancakes.

[00:13:30] And I always thought that was like...

[00:13:31] I mean, like a part of me was like, is that disrespectful or is that like...

[00:13:37] I mean, I couldn't...

[00:13:37] Like, I was hoping to see other inspirational, you know, breakfast messages like going around the corner and just...

[00:13:45] For God so loved the waffle that he gave his only begotten syrup.

[00:13:49] Like, to me, that would have been the logical next one.

[00:13:52] Sure.

[00:13:52] Sure.

[00:13:53] Yeah, no, it's disrespectful for sure.

[00:13:56] But I think...

[00:13:58] I mean, when I think of a person being pancaked, I think of the person being hit by a truck or something.

[00:14:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:06] So...

[00:14:07] Or a really good block from your offensive lineman, right?

[00:14:10] Yeah, sure.

[00:14:11] Yeah, that would work.

[00:14:12] So this could either be like a population control thing, like maybe IHOP's really into population control.

[00:14:19] Or maybe it's a cross-promotion with the NFL season.

[00:14:24] That's true.

[00:14:25] That's all possible.

[00:14:25] Do you...

[00:14:26] So do you prefer pancakes or waffles?

[00:14:29] So I can't eat either.

[00:14:32] I mean, it's not like I can't, but...

[00:14:34] If you're gonna make...

[00:14:35] You just don't know how.

[00:14:37] If you're gonna make me...

[00:14:39] You're just like rubbing your face on it and they're like, Anthony, you gotta...

[00:14:42] You're never gonna consume it this way.

[00:14:44] No, no, I think I've...

[00:14:45] I mean, it'll go away eventually.

[00:14:46] Cran out of my ear.

[00:14:48] Just sitting on a stack of pancakes.

[00:14:50] I've never figured it out.

[00:14:51] So I think we ought to introduce some of these characters first.

[00:14:57] And then I would like to do a Lumen-like ability power ranking.

[00:15:02] Okay.

[00:15:02] And this would just be limited to the people that we meet in the office.

[00:15:07] All right.

[00:15:08] So there's Mark, who's Mark in both worlds, I think.

[00:15:12] We meet Dylan.

[00:15:14] We meet Helly.

[00:15:15] We meet Irv.

[00:15:16] We meet Petey.

[00:15:18] Yeah, we do meet Petey.

[00:15:19] We meet Milchek.

[00:15:20] You meet Petey, yeah.

[00:15:22] And Mrs. Cobell.

[00:15:24] Yeah.

[00:15:25] And then we meet Mark's sister, Devin?

[00:15:30] Is that right?

[00:15:31] Yeah, I think it is Devin.

[00:15:33] Her husband Rickon.

[00:15:38] And all of the doofuses at the dinner party.

[00:15:42] And I do want to talk a little bit about the varying personality types that we're introduced to.

[00:15:47] But the first thing is, I would like us each to rank the people we meet in the office by the Lumen-like ability power ranking system.

[00:16:00] Now, these are just people that you would gravitate toward.

[00:16:03] People that you would enjoy spending time with.

[00:16:07] Nobody at the dinner party.

[00:16:09] Yeah, no, no.

[00:16:10] This is only people that we've met in Lumen.

[00:16:14] So I would even say Petey does not count.

[00:16:16] Yeah, I was going to say.

[00:16:17] I was actually just saying, in general, nobody at the dinner party I would want to ever spend time with.

[00:16:20] I think Petey would be my number one if we could include Petey.

[00:16:24] But here's how I'm going to rank these.

[00:16:26] So for me, just in this first episode, Helly would be number one.

[00:16:31] Mark would be number two.

[00:16:35] Definitely Dylan, number three.

[00:16:38] Then Irv.

[00:16:40] Then Cobell.

[00:16:42] Then Milchek.

[00:16:43] Milchek.

[00:16:44] That's your likability.

[00:16:45] That's my likability.

[00:16:45] Yeah.

[00:16:46] I really had a hard time whether or not to put Milchek or Cobell at the bottom here.

[00:16:53] But there's just something I don't trust about.

[00:16:56] I almost feel like I know that Mrs. Cobell or whatever, she almost has to act in the way that she's acting.

[00:17:09] But there's something sinister about Milchek that I just don't trust.

[00:17:13] So for me, he's the lowest.

[00:17:15] Yeah.

[00:17:16] I'm curious about how you put Helly at number one.

[00:17:19] Oh, because she does not want to be there.

[00:17:23] And I don't trust this place.

[00:17:25] And I feel like that's who I would...

[00:17:30] It's her disdain for the environment that makes me trust her more than the rest.

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:38] I guess I'm a little reluctant on that just because...

[00:17:40] She threw a stapler at someone's head.

[00:17:43] Well, yeah.

[00:17:43] There was violence.

[00:17:45] And there is this element of like, we don't know what everybody else's intro was like.

[00:17:51] Uh-huh.

[00:17:52] You know?

[00:17:52] So we're seeing them after they've been conditioned.

[00:17:56] And so if you're just putting me on day one, like it's orientation, like I'm also in there.

[00:18:00] Like, I mean, I don't know.

[00:18:01] I could see myself wanting to ally myself with Helly just because we're in the same situation.

[00:18:09] But I mean, overall, if I'm having to work right now, she seems...

[00:18:11] Like, I think I want to hang out with...

[00:18:14] I think Mark is number one for me just because he demonstrates...

[00:18:21] He's obviously got awareness of the play.

[00:18:22] So if I'm going to be stuck there, I'm going to want probably him to kind of give me the lay of the land.

[00:18:28] And, you know, he sort of broke protocol to relate to Helly, to give her the opportunities, right?

[00:18:35] And to kind of set her up to do...

[00:18:38] You know, make her own decision, but at the same time kind of knowing that it was going to go one direction.

[00:18:42] But like, he didn't follow everything according to the way it was supposed to go.

[00:18:47] So I appreciate that.

[00:18:48] Yeah, he doesn't present as a company cod, but I kind of feel like he ends up functioning that way.

[00:18:55] Well, and I think that that's from what we've seen just in this little bit.

[00:18:58] I mean, that's what this experiment or this experience does, right?

[00:19:05] You don't have any other...

[00:19:07] Like, when you're at work, what do you want to do more than anything else when you're at work?

[00:19:14] Not be at work?

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:17] Go home.

[00:19:19] But if you have no other existence, right?

[00:19:21] You have no other frame of reference.

[00:19:23] Then you're like, well, this is...

[00:19:26] These are my toys.

[00:19:27] This is what I get to play with, right?

[00:19:30] So incentives matter.

[00:19:32] Yeah.

[00:19:34] Whatever it is to collect these numbers matters.

[00:19:39] Relationships matter.

[00:19:41] So like, so, you know, Mark kind of trying to deal with the loss of Petey.

[00:19:46] I mean, that's a death in that world, right?

[00:19:48] I mean, he's not there anymore.

[00:19:49] Okay.

[00:19:50] All right.

[00:19:50] So absolutely, Mark, you're number one.

[00:19:54] All right.

[00:19:55] So who's number two?

[00:19:57] I go Irv.

[00:19:59] Irv?

[00:20:00] Irv?

[00:20:01] Yeah.

[00:20:03] I'm baffled by this.

[00:20:05] Because, again, I'm putting myself in this situation.

[00:20:08] Okay.

[00:20:09] I'm in Lumen.

[00:20:11] And my first...

[00:20:13] I have two options.

[00:20:14] I have the guy that's going to say the same thing every day.

[00:20:17] And he's kind of a stickler.

[00:20:18] Or I have the guy that obviously just wants to beat me at something.

[00:20:22] Like, he's amusing.

[00:20:24] He's amusing to us from the outside world.

[00:20:27] But in The Office, the guy that constantly wants to win?

[00:20:30] Yeah.

[00:20:30] But if you...

[00:20:31] All right.

[00:20:31] If there was someone in the bathroom and you wanted to talk a little smack, a little office

[00:20:35] gossip, it's not going to be Irv, right?

[00:20:39] You're going to...

[00:20:40] You want someone to sort of present the veneer of friendship.

[00:20:47] That's what you're looking for.

[00:20:49] But if I see him as a competitive sort, then I don't know if I trust his motives.

[00:20:54] Okay.

[00:20:55] All right.

[00:20:55] So Irv's number two.

[00:20:57] And then I think I'll put Helly here.

[00:21:02] Mostly, hey, jury's out.

[00:21:03] She's new.

[00:21:04] She's trying to figure things out.

[00:21:05] So I'm giving her a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.

[00:21:08] And then I put Dylan because of the competitive thing.

[00:21:10] I'm telling you.

[00:21:11] I think working with Dylan is a lot different than watching Dylan.

[00:21:14] All right.

[00:21:15] Then episode one.

[00:21:16] We're talking episode one.

[00:21:17] And then I would go Cobell.

[00:21:21] And then I'd go Milchak.

[00:21:23] And then I'd probably go to the board.

[00:21:24] So clearly, Milchak presents as a kinder and more stable figure in this episode.

[00:21:31] Yes and no.

[00:21:32] Because I know my rationale for putting Milchak at the bottom.

[00:21:36] But why Cobell over Milchak?

[00:21:39] Well, Cobell comes in and you can see.

[00:21:43] I mean, it's like.

[00:21:44] At this point, I don't know.

[00:21:46] How often does Cobell come in here with good news?

[00:21:50] And when Cobell comes in, is he like the yard duty?

[00:21:55] Are you thinking that Milchak is the.

[00:21:59] I mean, Milchak is like the yard duty.

[00:22:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:03] And.

[00:22:06] And then, you know, he gives he gives Mark interesting advice.

[00:22:09] Right.

[00:22:10] About the office.

[00:22:11] Like, why does he.

[00:22:12] Is that an undercut?

[00:22:13] Does he set him up?

[00:22:15] I think that that's the right thing to say to her to kind of win her over, even though the conversation doesn't go the way that you think it's going to go.

[00:22:24] Do you think he was helping?

[00:22:25] I think he was helping her.

[00:22:26] I don't think he was trying to undercut him.

[00:22:29] Because Mark does give a look.

[00:22:31] And when he gives a look, then my my thought was that that look was a cue to us that he felt maybe he was a little blindsided.

[00:22:40] Oh, all right.

[00:22:41] I didn't catch that one.

[00:22:42] But I could see that, you know, you could read that either way, I think.

[00:22:45] All right.

[00:22:46] Here's what I've done for for severance.

[00:22:49] I decided what I do is I would just read the plot summary off of Wikipedia.

[00:22:55] Line by line, we can just talk about the episode after each line.

[00:23:00] Now, this is somewhat modified.

[00:23:02] I've added a few things that Wikipedia has left out.

[00:23:06] So if there's any bad swears, that's that's probably me.

[00:23:11] Good to know.

[00:23:12] OK.

[00:23:13] A woman wakes in a conference room with no memory of who or where she is.

[00:23:17] After being given a survey and learning she is helly and you hire Lumen Industries, she is allowed to leave.

[00:23:26] But find she is unable to do so.

[00:23:31] Steve, this is your second watch of this episode.

[00:23:34] Is that right?

[00:23:35] Yes.

[00:23:36] All right.

[00:23:36] What does this do for you the second time around?

[00:23:38] Well, so, yeah, it's funny because it feels like because it's one of those rare shows where I would watch week to week.

[00:23:43] Right.

[00:23:44] Instead of binge.

[00:23:45] So when it came out, you know, like maybe I'd miss an episode and be able to double up.

[00:23:52] But but that's so, you know, it feels like a long time.

[00:23:55] I mean, it's been a long time.

[00:23:55] So I think we've seen the first episode and I haven't done a rewatch until we wanted to do this because I wanted to be close.

[00:24:01] I wanted to catch up to get closer to whenever season two is coming out.

[00:24:05] And it was funny.

[00:24:06] Heather and I were sitting there like, oh, wow, all this happened in episode one.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:09] A lot happens.

[00:24:10] You know, like there's so much.

[00:24:12] And and we'll get to it in a little bit because I really want to talk Ben Stiller's choices and just directorial style.

[00:24:21] So and I was really so now, you know, I was really taken by the imagery.

[00:24:25] I'm trying to put my finger on what it is like when you see her on the table, it evokes almost a coffin.

[00:24:33] Interesting.

[00:24:35] That was one thought, the way the table shaped, the way she's kind of laid out.

[00:24:38] It's a bird's eye view.

[00:24:39] So you're looking down on her.

[00:24:41] Yeah.

[00:24:42] So and the greenery, like to those I got a couple of things, which was like I got a coffin imagery.

[00:24:47] I almost got like a cocoon kind of imagery.

[00:24:50] Right.

[00:24:50] Like it was something it was just the way that it was set up.

[00:24:52] And again, the green brought a certain level of like nature.

[00:24:56] Well, and the title of this episode is The Good News About Hell.

[00:24:59] Right.

[00:25:00] Right.

[00:25:01] And her name is Helly.

[00:25:02] So you're kind of drawing.

[00:25:03] And you are underground.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:05] Because again, with the green, almost like I also was like there was like the three images that came to mind were the coffin, the cocoon and also a peapod.

[00:25:17] And all of them suggest something.

[00:25:21] Right.

[00:25:21] Like, I mean, they suggest a change.

[00:25:24] Right.

[00:25:24] Like, you know, a peapod is, you know, there's there's a certain level of growth.

[00:25:28] Cocoon is a metamorphosis and a death, of course, is a decomposition.

[00:25:31] But those are all very claustrophobic images.

[00:25:34] If you imagine yourself inside them.

[00:25:37] Right.

[00:25:37] Exactly.

[00:25:38] Right.

[00:25:38] So that so I got so I felt claustrophobic with that.

[00:25:42] And and so now and so I was just really kind of thinking like all three of those options are kind of on the table, depending on how you go into an experience like this.

[00:25:51] Right.

[00:25:51] Right.

[00:25:53] You know, you're on one hand, there's a certain death, like you're killing a third of your day, a third of your life.

[00:26:00] Right.

[00:26:01] From depending on what your perspective is, maybe two thirds.

[00:26:04] If you count sleep, you know, depending on who's who your point of view, the any or the outie.

[00:26:11] And then there is also a metamorphosis happening.

[00:26:15] Right.

[00:26:15] You mean something's changing.

[00:26:16] Right.

[00:26:16] Like you've actually created a new person.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:19] And I guess that's kind of where the peapod might be more apt.

[00:26:22] Right.

[00:26:22] Because there's like multiples right there.

[00:26:23] Right.

[00:26:23] Like growth of now there's more than one version.

[00:26:27] And so all of those things were just sort of bouncing around in my head.

[00:26:32] And and for her right now, that's how.

[00:26:36] Right.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:38] Right.

[00:26:38] She wakes up.

[00:26:39] She wakes up existing with no no concept of I mean, like what the pursuit of of higher purpose or any type of purpose is kind of like man's kind of like go to.

[00:26:53] Right.

[00:26:53] It's kind of innate.

[00:26:54] Right. And to, you know, oftentimes when people talk about the difference of of heaven and hell, depending on who or what your religious experience is or maybe who, you know, what sect of each particular religion or denomination, they may have a different take.

[00:27:09] And I remember growing up with the idea that that, you know, heaven is paradise and hell is the absence of all good things.

[00:27:16] Like you just you just are living an eternity of sort of.

[00:27:21] Not necessarily nothing, but like an awareness that you aren't alive.

[00:27:27] That's kind of what I see with with Helly.

[00:27:30] Right.

[00:27:30] I mean, she's she's coming, you know, as she's having to be asked these questions and these questions are really just auditing to find out whether or not the the experience experiment took.

[00:27:40] Look, for her, it's like this is the worst possible scenario.

[00:27:43] Like, wait, I'm who I know.

[00:27:46] I know that I don't want to be here.

[00:27:48] I know I feel trapped, but I don't know what I'm missing.

[00:27:52] Right. I'm glad that you brought this to kind of that sort of higher meta level, because I feel like the way that this is introduced, you know, with her kind of.

[00:28:04] I don't know, on the on the table that looks a little bit like a coffin.

[00:28:08] And the way that they frame this is that Mark has asked her a question out of order, which to me seems like a deliberate choice.

[00:28:17] And the question is, who are you?

[00:28:20] And that sort of launches this entire episode.

[00:28:23] The question of who are you?

[00:28:25] And I think that this is a direct commentary on are you the kind of person that defines yourself by your job title?

[00:28:34] Or are you the kind of person who defines yourself by the quality of your work?

[00:28:41] You know, how do you define yourself?

[00:28:43] Because I think that that's the bigger question.

[00:28:44] Now, in the episode, it's simply to determine how well her memory is functioning.

[00:28:49] Right.

[00:28:51] But it absolutely is a question that brings you to this higher existential question.

[00:28:56] And not just who is Helly, but, you know, who am I?

[00:29:00] And how do I answer that question?

[00:29:02] I like to go through these questions that she's asked.

[00:29:05] So she's asked, who are you?

[00:29:08] And then this question is clarified.

[00:29:10] A simple first name will do.

[00:29:12] Right.

[00:29:13] She can't remember her first name.

[00:29:15] I think each of these questions is measuring a different kind of human knowledge.

[00:29:20] So she's asked that question about her name.

[00:29:22] She can't do it.

[00:29:24] She's asked in which state she was born.

[00:29:27] And she can't answer that question either.

[00:29:30] That's measuring not just your memory, but your communicative memory.

[00:29:35] The memory that you wouldn't, you don't remember being born, but you remember people telling you things.

[00:29:40] You remember being communicated.

[00:29:42] This information is communicated to you socially.

[00:29:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:48] Then she's asked to name any state and she's able to do it.

[00:29:51] So she's able to name Delaware.

[00:29:54] This is measuring a sort of a general, sort of general knowledge, the kind of thing that you would, you would want your employees to have, even if they don't have any personal memory.

[00:30:06] Right.

[00:30:07] Right.

[00:30:07] They've got general, a general knowledge of like language and, you know, how, you know, what numbers are and things like that.

[00:30:13] So she's able to pass this test.

[00:30:15] She's able to name Delaware.

[00:30:16] And then finally, she's asked what color are, oh no, what's Mr. Egan's favorite breakfast?

[00:30:24] And this question makes zero sense to her at all.

[00:30:28] I think a later episode will help kind of explain what kind of memory that that is testing.

[00:30:34] And then finally, what are your, you know, what color are your mother's eyes?

[00:30:39] And I think that this is meant to measure long-term memory.

[00:30:43] So basically what this is, what this test is meant to do is to say, we want someone whose memory is completely wiped except for general human knowledge.

[00:30:54] We don't want this person to have short-term memory, long-term memory, or personal memory.

[00:31:00] We want them only to be able to, you know, know general concepts.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:06] Because it's important that, I mean, she can't be a blank slate.

[00:31:09] Otherwise she's just a newborn.

[00:31:11] You don't want a newborn.

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:15] And, but the key is that you can't have any connection to her world, but she can't have connection to the world at large.

[00:31:23] All right.

[00:31:24] Do you, all right.

[00:31:25] So are you the kind of person who is interested to know about your coworkers' personal lives?

[00:31:32] Uh, typically no.

[00:31:34] Okay.

[00:31:34] So my wife has a relatively new job and one of her coworkers has a hobby and that is competitive play of Zelda Breath of the Wild.

[00:31:43] And the first time he met her, he told her that he holds the national record for completing Zelda Breath of the Wild in, in speed play.

[00:31:58] And to me, I, that's something that I, I would care about.

[00:32:02] I would want to know that.

[00:32:03] Like this, this guy could play a game that took me a whole year to complete and this guy can do it in under 17 minutes.

[00:32:12] I, I find that fascinating.

[00:32:15] Uh, most of the time I don't really want to know about your dogs or your children or your husband, anything like that.

[00:32:24] Every now and again, there is a little detail that intrigues me that makes me want to know a little bit more about my coworkers.

[00:32:31] Well, well, yeah, but I mean, are you going to seek it?

[00:32:33] Are you going to go out of your way to find out?

[00:32:35] I wonder if this is somebody that's has something interesting and then how far do you go before you find out that it's no, um, this, this individual came out and.

[00:32:43] He just said it right, right off the bat.

[00:32:45] Yeah.

[00:32:46] Full flex.

[00:32:47] Full flex.

[00:32:48] Right off the bat.

[00:32:48] Just says, Hey, I know you're new here, but here's what you're doing.

[00:32:51] I would prefer to find that out maybe week two or something like that.

[00:32:56] See, this is the Dylan thing, right?

[00:32:58] Right.

[00:32:59] This is why I find I like two things can be equally true.

[00:33:03] This guy could be fascinating and I want nothing to do with them.

[00:33:05] Right.

[00:33:06] It's like the, like, it's like a guy.

[00:33:08] I remember seeing a guy come to a comedy shows in the audience and he had a falcon.

[00:33:15] He brought a falcon indoors.

[00:33:18] He's got a falcon.

[00:33:19] He's clearly a falconer.

[00:33:21] I would assume.

[00:33:23] Um, I feel like here's why I say, I assume.

[00:33:26] I would make the judgment.

[00:33:27] It could be that he just found it on the road.

[00:33:31] And it just perched on his, on his, uh, uh, his arm that has this protective sheath.

[00:33:38] If I found a falcon on the road, the first thing I'm going to do is to go to Falcons RS to buy all the falconers stuff.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:46] See, I get all buy falcon stuff with Falcons, Falcons, Falcons.

[00:33:49] So, um, that's just where you and I are different.

[00:33:52] Um, so, so I'm looking at this guy and I'm like, this guy is simultaneously.

[00:33:58] The most interesting thing about this guy is the very reason I don't want to go talk to him.

[00:34:04] Not because I'm afraid of a falcon, but because, oh God, this guy's going to let me know all about Falcons.

[00:34:10] And he clearly wants people to come and ask about the falcon.

[00:34:14] You're right.

[00:34:15] He's not like, well, I couldn't get the falcon sitter, but I had to come to this show.

[00:34:20] Well, and it's a comedy thing.

[00:34:22] So he probably wants one of the comics to notice him and work him into the bit.

[00:34:28] Right.

[00:34:28] And my, I immediately think of this guy is going to be the kind of guy where you go up and talk about us.

[00:34:32] Falcons.

[00:34:32] But, oh, I'm so tired of talking about my falcon.

[00:34:41] Now I'll, I'll be honest.

[00:34:43] If I saw that guy, like in the park, I would absolutely want to know about the falcons.

[00:34:49] If I saw him in a comedy, I comedy venue.

[00:34:54] Probably not.

[00:34:56] It's, it's off putting.

[00:35:00] I'll go find a falconer if I need a falconer.

[00:35:04] I never want a falconer to come to me.

[00:35:08] So this guy comes up to your wife and he's like, just so you know, as good as you may think you are at Zelda Breath in the Wild, you ain't it.

[00:35:19] I'm him.

[00:35:19] Because I almost felt like I'm going to bring in the game.

[00:35:23] I'm going to bring in a screen.

[00:35:24] I'm going to set this up.

[00:35:25] I want to see this done.

[00:35:27] Because if he's, if he's as good as he says he is, he should be able to get this done on his lunch break.

[00:35:32] I would like to see it happen.

[00:35:34] He is either the world's most competitive coworker or the world's worst at pickup lines.

[00:35:43] All right.

[00:35:47] Anything more to say on this opening scene?

[00:35:51] Such a good job of pacing and like capturing your interest immediately and telling anybody and then coming back and then showing the perspective of the, of the voice behind the box.

[00:36:04] Yeah.

[00:36:06] And then also juxtaposing that with the voiceless voice behind the box that is the board.

[00:36:14] Right.

[00:36:14] Like the, the wizard of Oz, right?

[00:36:16] Like the, the, the man behind the curtain.

[00:36:18] We hit, we hit, there's a voice that's asking all these questions.

[00:36:20] So this, so it suggests a certain level of, of power.

[00:36:25] And then we see what that was and we see that it was like very much like is part of the job.

[00:36:32] Right.

[00:36:32] And so I liked that idea.

[00:36:34] Right.

[00:36:34] So that it's somewhat like from her perspective, this, this person is holding all the cards and the reality is he's just holding a handbook.

[00:36:41] And I liked that kind of undercutting approach to that trope.

[00:36:46] And then we get it back, but in a new way with the board that will not be contributing vocally.

[00:36:53] Right.

[00:36:53] And well, we're not there yet, but Mrs. Cobell also kind of, we find out that she's the real big brother.

[00:37:00] Right.

[00:37:01] Because.

[00:37:02] Right.

[00:37:03] And, and she's not saying anything to interfere with Hellie's desire to leave.

[00:37:10] So we find out that there are like at least two stages of oversight and, and pretty, you know, a lot of micromanaging.

[00:37:19] Right.

[00:37:20] You've been, you've been promoted to leave, but that doesn't mean anything.

[00:37:23] Yeah.

[00:37:24] Maybe.

[00:37:24] I mean, I guess Mrs. Cobell doesn't really jump in, but Mark absolutely pays the price for this later.

[00:37:33] Right.

[00:37:34] Let's, let's jump to this next scene.

[00:37:36] So Hellie sees a video explaining that she has undergone the severance procedure, which split her memories to create a version of herself that will only exist inside the workplace.

[00:37:50] This is when my son walked in and he was fascinated by this.

[00:37:55] He thought this was a fantastic premise.

[00:37:58] And I think, I mean, I think a lot of people jumped into the show already knowing the premise.

[00:38:04] So my son had no idea about the premise.

[00:38:07] He was just kind of jumping into the scene.

[00:38:09] When a sci-fi show uses a little device to explain to you the premise, it's a little, it's a really risky move because all of a sudden you're taken out of the world and you're, you know, you're being taught something.

[00:38:23] And I felt like this, this scene was perfect.

[00:38:27] The scene was a perfect expository technique.

[00:38:32] This is Hellie explaining something to herself.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:37] And this, and you can totally see in world why someone would need this.

[00:38:41] You know, you, you wake up, you don't trust anyone.

[00:38:43] You don't have any memory.

[00:38:44] The only face you're going to trust is your own face.

[00:38:48] Yeah.

[00:38:48] It's really good.

[00:38:49] I mean, it's, it's, and Stiller does two, he has two moments of really almost perfect ways to explain things like the expository method that, you know, like I always think back to like inception.

[00:39:05] Inception has to explain to you what's going on.

[00:39:08] And it's at some point you're just like, okay, now I'm just listening to an explanation of what's going on because the more complex it is, the more it's required.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:16] Um, but Stiller chooses with this scene.

[00:39:21] Perfect.

[00:39:22] Right.

[00:39:22] I mean, yeah, it, it, it's part, it actually becomes part of an eerie feeling.

[00:39:27] So you're, you're, you're learning without losing any of the impact of the scene.

[00:39:34] And then later there's like kind of more explanation about it.

[00:39:37] And we, and we, and we, in the dinner party and I love the way that it's being explained at the dinner party by sort of this.

[00:39:45] I mean, it shows there's, it shows the, the, the controversy, these almost political or the politicized, uh, factions between those who believe or those who don't.

[00:39:56] What it's seen like in the real world.

[00:39:58] Um, and, and when you're done by like a know-it-all, uh, uh, you know, dinner, uh, guest, by the way, there's no food.

[00:40:09] I mean, it's like everything about that is like so pretentious and over the top.

[00:40:11] So when it's done, you're like, oh no, this guy's an authentic person too.

[00:40:15] And of course he would explain it to like, and we just recently, we're talking to somebody who was like, like we had said, oh yeah, we've watched this particular show.

[00:40:24] And then they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:40:25] And then they start explaining the show to you.

[00:40:27] You're like, I don't, I'm not impressed that, you know, the thing that I have already told you I know.

[00:40:31] And, but they exist.

[00:40:33] And so that's, what's really great about that scene because it does a lot to help further our knowledge.

[00:40:39] Yeah.

[00:40:40] Like they, this dinner party scene does a lot to show us, to tell us a little bit more about the world, but also give a little context into what it's viewed.

[00:40:49] Cause like we see it being explained in world and then now we get to see it explained out of the world.

[00:40:55] And I think that that's, it's such a good way to do that where you actually are grasping all this information as, as an audience member and you're learning more as it's going on, but it's not at the expense of any suspense or tension or character development.

[00:41:12] What do you think about that scene where she can't leave?

[00:41:16] Like, well, I mean, she does leave.

[00:41:18] I mean, from Mark's perspective.

[00:41:21] Yeah.

[00:41:21] Well, you did leave.

[00:41:22] You went out that door and every, every time you're here, it means that you came back.

[00:41:26] Right.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:28] So that's, I, I'm assuming this is, she steps out.

[00:41:32] She's unsevered or is that.

[00:41:34] I think that that's the implication that she loses.

[00:41:37] Because she, because we never see her out.

[00:41:39] We never see her perspective.

[00:41:40] She always goes out in.

[00:41:42] In terms of her perspective, every single time she goes through the door, she immediately is on the, on the same side of the door facing the other direction.

[00:41:50] Right.

[00:41:51] So.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:52] And I think that that's, and it's a great, again, it's such a, it's an eerie scene and it's such a simple way to show.

[00:41:59] Now you're actually seeing the mechanics of it.

[00:42:02] And I feel like, you know, maybe more the second watch, but I think even the first watch, like I was kind of putting those things together.

[00:42:09] But the idea that this is what this world looks like.

[00:42:13] There is no in, there's no out.

[00:42:14] It's just, you get in an elevator, you get back out of that same exact elevator and your day starts again.

[00:42:19] So what I know about Heli at this point is that she doesn't trust it.

[00:42:24] She wants to leave and she's going to try to do it.

[00:42:27] But my immediate feeling, if this was me and that was happening to me and I'm totally freaked out and I can't leave, I would think, well, I'm going to have to do something that forces their hand.

[00:42:46] I'm going to have to get fired.

[00:42:47] I'm going to have to do something where they are forced to fire me.

[00:42:53] So what she decides to do is she decides that she's going to.

[00:42:58] All right, I'll go with you.

[00:42:59] Let's see what's next.

[00:43:01] And I don't know.

[00:43:02] I'm not sure about that decision.

[00:43:04] I mean, I guess she doesn't really have many options at that point.

[00:43:07] Right.

[00:43:09] Maybe you think.

[00:43:09] Well, she tried to leave.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:11] And every time she leaves, she comes right back.

[00:43:13] And again, this is not somebody who has other frame of reference.

[00:43:20] Right.

[00:43:20] She just knows she wants to get out.

[00:43:22] And then she doesn't know who she is.

[00:43:24] She doesn't know why she doesn't know who she is.

[00:43:27] But every time she goes to leave this place, she comes back in.

[00:43:29] And so there's maybe a sense of just like, well, how do I what do I know?

[00:43:33] Like, why do I think I need to get out of here?

[00:43:35] Well, and also, I mean, she threw a stapler at a guy's head and they still wanted her on the job.

[00:43:42] Right.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:42] What else?

[00:43:43] You've committed an act of violence with a lethal weapon.

[00:43:49] I mean, I guess I didn't kill the guy, but how far are you willing to go to be fired?

[00:43:54] Right.

[00:43:55] Right.

[00:43:55] If you wanted to be fired, like what would be the Steve Osborne choice?

[00:44:00] Probably something.

[00:44:01] It'd probably be something to do with the bathroom.

[00:44:04] The old cherry bomb down the toilet tray?

[00:44:08] Or just poop in the sink.

[00:44:12] So that brings up a story.

[00:44:14] So when my wife was a teacher, one of the fifth graders was constantly pooping in the sink.

[00:44:24] Nice.

[00:44:24] It would happen every day.

[00:44:26] It would happen.

[00:44:27] It happened every day for a couple of weeks and they could not figure out who it was.

[00:44:31] And they were trying to use methods.

[00:44:33] That's impressive.

[00:44:34] That's what I thought.

[00:44:35] They were trying to use methods to try to narrow down who could it have been.

[00:44:41] They had people camped out outside the bathroom.

[00:44:46] But of course, teachers have jobs.

[00:44:48] They can't be there all the time.

[00:44:49] Right.

[00:44:51] Anyway.

[00:44:51] Hanging out different individual snacks.

[00:44:55] Using corn nuts as a clue.

[00:44:58] Today we're going to learn about the Native Americans.

[00:45:02] Everyone's going to take a bite of this maze.

[00:45:05] We have different colored corn for certain people, though.

[00:45:09] So anyway, she comes home and she's kind of giving me updates about who they have in mind, who the suspects are.

[00:45:19] And at one point, like, this was about two weeks in and I kind of said, you know, I'll be honest, Sarah.

[00:45:26] If I was in fifth grade, whoever was pooping in that sink would probably be my best friend.

[00:45:33] I know this is really disconcerting to you.

[00:45:37] And it's a consternation for every teacher at the school.

[00:45:40] And I really appreciate that your job's hard.

[00:45:43] But as a fifth grader, as someone who was formerly a fifth grade boy, I can guarantee you that I would be involved with this in some way if it was me.

[00:45:52] Right.

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:53] Just the lookout.

[00:45:55] Oh, I wouldn't be doing it.

[00:45:56] I'd be like the guy with the idea, you know, coaxing someone else to do it or egging them on or saying, you got to do it.

[00:46:03] You got a backpack full of flushable wipes just so the guy can get out and, you know.

[00:46:07] I'd be like, hey, I heard that there was a guy down the street and he did it for three weeks straight.

[00:46:11] And he got caught.

[00:46:12] You could break the record.

[00:46:13] I would absolutely think of ways to egg the person on.

[00:46:17] All right.

[00:46:18] Next storyline here.

[00:46:19] Mark Scout, who works alongside Hellie in Lumen's Macro Data Refinement Division, discovers that he has been promoted to department head in light of co-worker Petey's sudden departure.

[00:46:34] So for me, this scene is kind of about Mark's reaction to the learning that his friend has been canned.

[00:46:43] But Petey's absence at work is like a death because it's such a small group that he's got.

[00:46:52] I don't know if you ever had the experience where, like, a friend from school would, like, transfer into another school.

[00:46:57] And you just never see him again?

[00:46:59] You just never see him again.

[00:47:01] And it's, like, it's such an odd feeling when you're a kid.

[00:47:05] I mean, I never was able to keep up with any of my friends that transferred, it seemed like.

[00:47:09] But here it's just like, well, like, he's just like, well, why?

[00:47:12] You know, what happened?

[00:47:13] What's going on?

[00:47:14] Like, there's all these.

[00:47:14] Like, it's very childlike.

[00:47:15] It really does give you the sense of, like, that these workers are treated like children, right?

[00:47:21] Yeah.

[00:47:22] You know, they basically, they're born into a conference room.

[00:47:26] And they're taught everything that they want, you know, that you want them to know.

[00:47:29] And they're kind of fed the office mantras and the office religion and the office politics.

[00:47:38] And they're completely kept in the dark on so many things.

[00:47:42] And, of course, this is presented to Mark as if, look, we cannot infringe.

[00:47:49] What did they say?

[00:47:50] Milchak says something like, assault his privacy.

[00:47:53] If we do that, we're going to be aiding and abetting you assaulting Petey's privacy.

[00:48:00] You know, this is sort of the narrative that they're telling him to make it so he can't know or have any kind of closure with his, what he views as his best friend.

[00:48:13] And, yeah.

[00:48:14] And there's no, as far as we know, any mechanism for him to process this.

[00:48:20] And Milchak says the most condescending thing that you could say, like, you know what?

[00:48:26] Your friendship was one of my favorite office friendships.

[00:48:29] As if, like, they're characters in some sitcom or something.

[00:48:33] Right.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:34] It's like you're, it definitely feels such, like, such an experiment at that point.

[00:48:39] Like, I like that those little moments, like, remind you that there's a bigger science fiction theme going on here.

[00:48:48] And it's so subtle and it's so simple.

[00:48:50] But you immediately, it's like, what a weird thing to say.

[00:48:53] And what a weird thing to accept.

[00:48:57] Were you ever promoted at the expense of someone else's happiness or someone else's detriment?

[00:49:04] Oh, like in place of somebody or instead of somebody?

[00:49:08] Have you ever been promoted in such a way that kind of caused someone else to suffer in some way?

[00:49:14] Yeah, somewhat.

[00:49:15] I mean, I, there was a guy that I worked with at one of the companies and he was just, he went out of his way to come off very nice and very, almost overly chummy.

[00:49:27] But then I found out later that he was actually trying to get me fired.

[00:49:31] Oh.

[00:49:32] And trying to take over.

[00:49:34] He wanted to take over my, my job and, you know, kind of empire build.

[00:49:39] So not because he didn't like you, but because he wanted what you had.

[00:49:43] Yeah.

[00:49:43] Well, I don't know.

[00:49:43] He may not like me or who knows.

[00:49:45] And, and he, I found this out from one of his employees and.

[00:49:51] And I was like, well, this is really crazy.

[00:49:53] And like, and it was really working behind the scenes, working with like our mutual boss to try to, he kept on trying to like convince him.

[00:50:01] And at some point it just got to the, like, I kept on hearing these, these comments and, and I went and met with HR on it.

[00:50:09] And it turned out that, you know, without revealing too much, they said, well, there's other things going on.

[00:50:16] This is not, you're not the only one to bring concerns up.

[00:50:21] And towards the end of his tenure there, unbeknownst to him or I, I didn't know he was on the, like going to be on the outs.

[00:50:27] They announced that I was, I was being promoted.

[00:50:33] And, and, and I was the day that they were going to announce it.

[00:50:36] Like I really, I really wanted to see what his reaction was going to be.

[00:50:39] But the night before I went down and had a little dinner and I guess I had some of the worst food poisoning.

[00:50:46] And I was throwing up.

[00:50:48] Now, are you sure that.

[00:50:49] That he didn't poison you.

[00:50:51] Yeah.

[00:50:51] So I was throwing up all night, like all night.

[00:50:54] Like I went into like a different room to just lay there and groan.

[00:50:58] And, and the next morning I popped up, you know, super grave.

[00:51:02] And I was just like, I'm going to work.

[00:51:05] I'm not going to miss this moment.

[00:51:08] I want to see his face when they announced that I got promoted after all of his efforts to try to, you know, get me fired.

[00:51:18] And, and they didn't make the announcement.

[00:51:22] And then, and then he left like the next day.

[00:51:25] And I was like, ah.

[00:51:27] All right.

[00:51:27] Next, uh, next segment here.

[00:51:29] The outside version of Mark, a former professor is grieving his wife's death and living in the loom and subsidized town of Cure.

[00:51:38] He attends a dinner party without food with his sister, her husband, and their doofus friends.

[00:51:45] For me, this was one of the weirdest parts of this pilot episode.

[00:51:48] Yeah.

[00:51:49] For me, the outside world is just as messed up as the inside world of a woman.

[00:51:54] Right.

[00:51:54] And maybe it has sort of a, more of a veneer of normalcy, but not much, you know?

[00:52:03] Right.

[00:52:03] The idea that like, like you almost have a moment where you're like, well, wait, which is better?

[00:52:09] And for me, there's a, there's a lighting issue.

[00:52:12] Like the, like when you're down in the basement of Lumen, there's no windows, which is disconcerting, but it's all very well lit.

[00:52:22] It's very office lit, but it's lit.

[00:52:24] And then you're outside and everything is overcast.

[00:52:29] And it doesn't just feel like a regular housing development.

[00:52:32] It feels like there's just something off about it.

[00:52:36] And, you know, you're having to have these conversations with your neighbor about trash cans and you're going to, you're going to have to go to this party with your sister's friends and nothing feels comfortable in this.

[00:52:52] And so you wonder like, which is better, which is, is it better to be at work?

[00:52:57] To me, it brings up a different question.

[00:52:59] Like if the whole concept is, is this work-life balance and the thing that I jokingly referred to, like, what is the one thing you want to do when you're at work?

[00:53:05] And that's like, leave work.

[00:53:07] It's like, well, well, what is he, what is home for him?

[00:53:12] It's schedules, recycling versus trash.

[00:53:17] Yeah.

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:19] You know, so there's, there's a calendar objectives.

[00:53:23] Pretending that you enjoy the company of your sister's husband.

[00:53:28] Pretending that you enjoy the company of other people you're forced to be around for whatever reason.

[00:53:34] You, you have disagreements with the person right next to you because they're not like the calendar is very simple.

[00:53:41] And now they're infringing on your ability to do things.

[00:53:45] And all you want to do is just have, you just want to eat by yourself.

[00:53:49] Just want to have one meal where I'm not bothered.

[00:53:54] And I'm getting a phone call about, about my neighbor and agendas and this and that.

[00:54:03] So that's getting interrupted.

[00:54:04] It's like your lunch break got interrupted.

[00:54:05] It's like, there's a lot about that world that feels like this is the balance we're looking for.

[00:54:10] And so we can really enjoy this.

[00:54:13] You know?

[00:54:14] Yeah.

[00:54:15] And, and so that's where I, you know, because it's like, and I think good sci-fi takes, takes an ocean and then sort of amplifies it.

[00:54:23] And then uses that maybe as, you know, what you think is the real thing.

[00:54:29] And there's really a bigger message going on.

[00:54:33] But how, you know, work oftentimes, like what, what reflects what?

[00:54:38] Is work reflecting our regular lives or our regular lives reflecting work?

[00:54:42] And, you know, how much, how much play do we allow ourselves?

[00:54:46] Okay.

[00:54:47] So there's only so much we can, I think we can say on this topic until we get to the spoiler section.

[00:54:52] But I do wonder, are the people outside in the town of Kyr, are they all stupid?

[00:55:00] Right.

[00:55:02] That's, so that's what.

[00:55:04] Because that dinner party to me is like, what is happening here?

[00:55:07] Like these people present as like they're going to have interesting conversation.

[00:55:11] In fact, they're going to skip the food because the conversation is going to be the food.

[00:55:17] But in terms of conversation, not knowing why they didn't call it World War I during World War I.

[00:55:25] Right.

[00:55:25] Is ridiculous.

[00:55:27] Right.

[00:55:27] Right.

[00:55:28] And like, it's so, it's, they're so dumb in that regard that like when I'm watching even the second time, because I forgot it, I'm just kind of like, wait a minute.

[00:55:35] Like, like the answer is so obvious so that when, when Mark reveals the obvious answer, I was like, there was that brief moment where I'm like, I almost had the same look that he had.

[00:55:46] I was like, well, what?

[00:55:47] You know why this isn't confusing, right?

[00:55:51] Like, you know why this isn't a thing, don't you?

[00:55:54] And.

[00:55:54] Not only that, he's presenting it as his, I don't know the name of the guy at the dinner party.

[00:56:00] He's presenting this little factoid as if he's fascinated by it and everyone else is going to benefit from this really interesting tidbit.

[00:56:09] It would be considered a faux pas to refer to it as World War I.

[00:56:15] Which is just like, not even like, where did you get this?

[00:56:18] That's not even true.

[00:56:19] It's not a faux pas.

[00:56:20] Right.

[00:56:20] It was not something that was like poo-pooed.

[00:56:25] And so the idea that like, so it's just one of those things where it's like, well, are you making this up?

[00:56:30] Did you hear from an even dumber person?

[00:56:33] Yeah.

[00:56:34] Or is this whole thing a put on?

[00:56:36] Right.

[00:56:36] And so that, so that's, and then when it, so when it makes the switch over to sort of their, like, there's a certain level of self-righteousness they have.

[00:56:45] And a certain, like, I don't know if it's a disdain or they, they see something off about him taking the severance project on and like being a part of it.

[00:56:57] Like they look down on them, but it's, so it's just a very bizarre thing where you're just like, wow, could you imagine being looked down upon by these folks?

[00:57:06] Right.

[00:57:07] Yes.

[00:57:08] It's, it's salt in the wound for sure.

[00:57:09] And so then we get the sense of, you know, a better idea of why he may have done the severance that it's not so much, he may not necessarily be seeking work-life balance, but he's trying to forget and he's torn in something.

[00:57:23] And if, and he's maybe he knows he can't forget the loss that he's experiencing, but he can at least spare a third of his day thinking about it.

[00:57:37] And it's, it's really something because you see these childlike coworkers and you go, wow, that's such a bizarre thing.

[00:57:45] And then you go out and you around these people pretending to be adults.

[00:57:52] And it's a, it's a really interesting scenario.

[00:57:55] I mean, obviously these are both very extreme examples of what they're doing and, but it's like, but it's not like they all have foundations.

[00:58:02] And, you know, and I think we talked about this in our review of the movie, The Menu, that we know people that are pretentious and up their own ass.

[00:58:11] We've, we've experienced these people and, and it's a, it's even harder when you're like, it's just, it's just easier for me to just let it happen.

[00:58:24] But his whole life seems like that.

[00:58:27] At least, at least in episode one.

[00:58:29] Right.

[00:58:30] Right.

[00:58:31] The, the bed, the three beds thing.

[00:58:35] One of the funniest concepts.

[00:58:38] Yeah.

[00:58:38] Let's talk about that.

[00:58:40] After being encouraged to sleep at a sister's house, Mark encounters a man claiming to be Petey who gives him a letter with cryptic instructions.

[00:58:49] So he doesn't want to stay at the house, but clearly he's convinced to do it again.

[00:58:57] Here we have this guy who's so passive.

[00:59:00] He can't even go home.

[00:59:02] Right.

[00:59:02] Right.

[00:59:03] Everything in his life is someone else is going to make a choice for him.

[00:59:07] And, um, I mean, you could, you could see the severance procedure as his choice, but in reality, what he's doing is he's saying, I'm just going to give a third of my life to this company and let them do whatever they want with me.

[00:59:22] All right.

[00:59:22] So that's, that's almost like the ultimate act of passivity.

[00:59:27] But in this moment, he wants to go home and his sister won't let him, you know, you're going to stay here.

[00:59:33] And why?

[00:59:35] Okay.

[00:59:35] So he's, he's in almost like, um, a three little bear situation where there's like a big bed and a middle bed, middle sized bed and a little bed.

[00:59:46] And the reason for this is that eventually, eventually that their child's going to be born and they want the child to grow up in a room with three beds.

[01:00:00] So it never has to see furniture removed from its life and traumatize him.

[01:00:06] Right.

[01:00:10] So, so, so, all right.

[01:00:12] So here's my question.

[01:00:16] Uh, why is he sleeping in the race car bed?

[01:00:19] Right.

[01:00:20] Of all the choices, like, why does he have to go to the race car bed?

[01:00:25] Like, does that his, cause it didn't seem like it was his call.

[01:00:28] I mean, I guess it's one more thing where he's kind of being treated like a child cause he literally gets tucked in or whatever.

[01:00:36] Right.

[01:00:37] Yeah.

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:40] And they only have sheets that are big enough for the rest.

[01:00:42] I don't know why he's sleeping in the race car.

[01:00:45] Okay.

[01:00:45] Cause then he says making the sheets, right?

[01:00:49] Rick is making the sheets.

[01:00:52] Um, so yeah.

[01:00:54] And it really does do a lot to, to show this childlike quality that we've, that we kind of experience at the workplace.

[01:01:03] But again, here he is, you know, the outer version of him is like, so it kind of brings up the question of like, who are these people in, in regular life and how much of that inevitably bleeds over to the other side.

[01:01:17] Right.

[01:01:17] And I think that that's, uh, and that's kind of the idea of this whole concept of work life balance.

[01:01:23] And I think we search for it a lot of times, right?

[01:01:26] Like I like a job that says it's going to give me work life balance.

[01:01:28] And what does that mean exactly?

[01:01:31] Now I've had one person explain to me, well, what's really nice about this job is, you know, when you get there at like eight, you're on the job.

[01:01:41] And then, but when you're done, you go home, you don't have to think about it.

[01:01:43] You don't have to think about it.

[01:01:44] You're not, they're not going to be bugging you after hours.

[01:01:48] Um, you're not going to have to answer emails after hours.

[01:01:52] It'll just, whatever you're working on is going to wait for you till the next day.

[01:01:58] And this is not true.

[01:02:00] Right.

[01:02:00] I mean, it's not, I mean, that's, no matter what the job is for the most part.

[01:02:04] Um, yeah.

[01:02:05] For most people, you can't, you can't buy.

[01:02:08] Well, and not only that, but I don't think that that that's good either way because that, because the flip side of that would suggest, okay, well then when like what severance does is like, okay.

[01:02:16] But then when you're at work though, you're not bothered by your plumbing issues that you have to rush home to deal with.

[01:02:22] You're not bothered by, um, you know, trying to balance doctor appointments around this to that, or you're not bothered by, uh, the kids being a pain or whatever it might be.

[01:02:34] And, and while all of those things do take away, like if you're thinking about work when you're home, you're not as present as you could be.

[01:02:41] And vice versa, if you're thinking about home, you're not as present at work as you might.

[01:02:44] All of that is to suggest that none of these things are informed by the other.

[01:02:49] And that's just not, it's just not, that's not healthy.

[01:02:53] Right.

[01:02:53] So this is the idea that like you, that maybe what we consider this, this utopian work life balance situation is an unattainable and just not, it's not human nature.

[01:03:07] And, and so this whole idea of like, okay, well, does he appear childlike at work?

[01:03:13] Because in real life, he's just very passive and whatever his situation is, maybe he wasn't this way prior to the tragedy, but now post tragedy.

[01:03:20] Uh, he can't make his own decisions.

[01:03:25] And maybe that informs both sides to the point where like, we, I think the obvious thing is to say, well, the, the inner version, the, uh, the, the guy who's working at, uh, at Lumen is, is, uh, informed by the outer, but not the other way around.

[01:03:47] And I think that, I think that there's something to be said for, we don't know.

[01:03:50] We don't know if the work version of his is also informing his outer version.

[01:03:55] Right.

[01:03:56] Yeah.

[01:03:56] I think that there's an assumption that the Audi is the like, like Mark prime or Mark alpha, whereas the any is Mark beta.

[01:04:07] Right.

[01:04:09] Right.

[01:04:10] I think that that's an, and I think.

[01:04:12] And part of that assumption being that it supposedly has the least amount of information, right?

[01:04:16] It has the least amount of, uh, but it doesn't have the memories.

[01:04:19] It doesn't have the, he doesn't know he's being motivated by the stimulus, but the idea that, you know, Cobell says you look hung over.

[01:04:26] And he's like, huh?

[01:04:28] Like if he's hung over, he doesn't know he's hung over, but he knows he doesn't feel well.

[01:04:34] Right.

[01:04:35] So there is an impact.

[01:04:37] Right.

[01:04:37] And then at the flip side, we see it the other way.

[01:04:39] Like he's, we don't, you know, we don't, we assume he doesn't have a concussion, but he could have sustained a concussion.

[01:04:44] And that would have informed his, his Audi who is in would, why, why am I that way?

[01:04:51] Oh, it says here that I have a card with the pips gift card.

[01:04:54] That says why VIP.

[01:04:58] He's a, he's a pip.

[01:05:03] So for me, this whole episode sets up this bizarre world where no one is who, who they say that they are.

[01:05:11] Nothing is what it seems like even, even the sister's authenticity.

[01:05:16] Petey is a little bit suspect because she's married to Rickon.

[01:05:18] Like, right.

[01:05:20] You seem normal and yet you're going along with this three beds in a bedroom notion.

[01:05:26] And you're putting your brother who's an adult man in a race car bed.

[01:05:32] So you're a little bit suspicious about her and she's going along with the, the, the no food dinner party.

[01:05:39] Party.

[01:05:41] Finally, you meet Petey and he feels like the only authentic person you've met so far.

[01:05:48] Right.

[01:05:49] He's the only one that actually has a voice you can trust.

[01:05:53] And he's the only one that is as of right now at this very moment knows both versions of Mark.

[01:06:01] He's only, he's the only one that, and he says that he does.

[01:06:03] And yet he kind of presents as kind of a crazy guy.

[01:06:06] Right.

[01:06:06] Right.

[01:06:07] So the, the only sane person is the crazy guy.

[01:06:10] And I think it's just a really effective way to show that there is an actual sort of systemic problem.

[01:06:20] Like you, you are living in the matrix.

[01:06:22] I'm the only one that can see it.

[01:06:24] And of course you're going to suspect that I'm crazy at first because everyone else is going along with it.

[01:06:32] Yeah.

[01:06:33] And, and yeah, I like the idea that you say that, that the, who do you trust and how and why?

[01:06:38] And, and I really like, really liked the dynamic between Devin and Mark.

[01:06:45] Like this seems pretty genuine, but again, like you said, it's undercut by, by her husband, her choice of husband.

[01:06:53] And, and the people they, they are around and, and you go, is this really who you'd want to be taking advice from?

[01:07:02] If this is, if these are the choices she makes.

[01:07:05] So it, so creates, like you said, it creates a level of, of, uh, huh.

[01:07:11] Throughout the entire world.

[01:07:13] Right.

[01:07:13] I mean, I feel like you're already introduced to this idea that like, okay, well, Lumen is also subsidizing these housing.

[01:07:20] And like, you start to, to question like, what, is there something else going on here?

[01:07:30] Yes.

[01:07:30] And then you're wondering, number one, like, what is this restaurant Pips?

[01:07:35] Like, it looks like a crappy old diner.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:39] And no one else is there.

[01:07:41] And it does feel a little bit like, is this town a real town?

[01:07:46] Yeah.

[01:07:47] And, uh, and so that's, that's where you start to question, you know, wait a minute.

[01:07:50] Is what, what, where is, where does reality?

[01:07:55] Like, again, I, so like the, the sci-fi onion starts to get, you know, the layers are starting to get peeled back because you start off with it.

[01:08:02] You know, let's just look at it from a, from a perspective of, of just a sci-fi show.

[01:08:08] I remember reading about the show coming out and I was immediately hooked on the concept.

[01:08:14] And when I saw the cast, I was like, oh man, I hope, I hope this works.

[01:08:19] And, and this episode is an incredible pilot episode in that regard because it scratches every, every bit of a sci-fi itch that I look for without feeling like over the top.

[01:08:31] Like in terms of the sci-fi quality of it, there's, there's a sense of, of, uh, of unease throughout everything.

[01:08:41] And, well, it's, I would say that the, the entire show is sufficiently bizarre and yet it's, every single thing is understated.

[01:08:52] Right.

[01:08:53] So it, that is a really hard thing to pull off to make a world thoroughly bizarre and thoroughly understated at the same time.

[01:09:02] Yeah.

[01:09:02] And maybe that's just because it's the first episode or whatever.

[01:09:05] I mean, things are going to get a little bit nuts later on, but, um, the, absolutely.

[01:09:12] This show is, is striking the kind of tone that I want in this.

[01:09:16] Well, and the patients, right?

[01:09:18] Like I really, you know, I go back to the, just the scene of Mark coming from the elevator to his, his, it's the, the music.

[01:09:27] It's just so like Bossa Nova, you know, bopping along and, and he's doing almost nothing.

[01:09:34] You know, I mean, he's just walking, you know, maybe, maybe a nose wipe here, maybe a slight cough.

[01:09:41] Um, and it's just, and it just, all the twists and turns that it's taking without doing anything.

[01:09:47] And I feel like that's a pretty good, uh, you know, it's analogous for what the show is in a lot of ways.

[01:09:53] Lots of twists, lots of turns, but that doesn't mean that what, that anything necessarily spectacular is happening, but you are going through those twists and turns the whole time.

[01:10:05] All right.

[01:10:06] Last scene, Mark returns home and interacts with his neighbor, Mrs. Selvig, unaware that she is his boss, senior manager, Harmony Cobell.

[01:10:15] Well, short scene, kind of a, what the hell capstone to this kind of expands the problem a little bit here because now you're realizing, oh, this guy is not just being observed in his office setting.

[01:10:37] He's being observed in his natural habitat.

[01:10:42] He's being observed at home.

[01:10:44] He's, I don't know.

[01:10:46] I mean, I guess it could be that this person who's living next to him is just coincidentally living next to him, but she's going by a different name and she's got a whole different backstory.

[01:10:59] You know, her mother was a Catholic, not an atheist.

[01:11:01] Right.

[01:11:02] So, so, I mean, I do, I do get the sense that whatever's going on with Mark, he absolutely is being observed.

[01:11:12] He's the experiment.

[01:11:14] Right.

[01:11:15] Yeah.

[01:11:15] And so, cause there is that, I remember the first time I watched this, I'm like, okay, so is she, is she observing him or wait, is she also severed?

[01:11:24] Like, you know, are these, is this, you know, can these people have separate lives?

[01:11:31] But again, you know, because the name is different and his name is stayed the same as far as we know.

[01:11:39] It's, it does present like, okay, well, well, this, this, this is, you know, this is an experiment.

[01:11:47] So, Ms. Cobell slash Ms. Selvig has two different backstories and one of the backstories, you know, she, in both cases, she says that her mother used to say something to her.

[01:11:57] And it's like this little aphorism that's supposed to like, you know, give you some kind of fortune cookie wisdom.

[01:12:04] In one case, her mother is an atheist who has some kind of wisdom about hell of your, hell of your own making.

[01:12:12] And the other one is like, her mother's a Catholic and, you know, it's, it's a saying about how you need to get good sleep.

[01:12:20] Right.

[01:12:21] Do you feel like one of these is true and the other isn't?

[01:12:26] Or do you feel like, no, both of these are total lies?

[01:12:29] Yeah.

[01:12:29] It's, it's an, it's a weird one.

[01:12:32] Right.

[01:12:32] And it's, it's, I like the idea, like either way, I like the idea that they're saying that there's two worlds.

[01:12:41] Right.

[01:12:42] I mean, it's, there's an, in these, in each world.

[01:12:45] And if she's orchestrating this in one world, an atheist point of view is more appropriate than maybe the Catholic point of view.

[01:12:58] And I almost wonder if there's a certain sense to, of like, that's also kind of amplifying the idea of like, we, we, maybe when we're at work, we say, well, we're not supposed to say this or do this.

[01:13:11] Or, you know, maybe we, we, our religion takes a backseat because there's too many people to, to deal with and you don't want to be offensive.

[01:13:19] So you sort of sanitize that version.

[01:13:22] And then out here, you know, in your regular world, like maybe, maybe you can be a little more spiritual or, you know, you, you know, you can drink outside of work.

[01:13:32] You can't drink inside of work.

[01:13:33] You can party outside of work.

[01:13:34] You can't, as long as that partying doesn't affect your, like.

[01:13:37] It supposes a dualism.

[01:13:38] Right.

[01:13:39] Supposes that you, okay.

[01:13:40] So you, you're the limits of your personality are just fundamentally different outside of work than they are inside of work.

[01:13:47] You have a personal life.

[01:13:49] You have a professional life.

[01:13:50] The dualism there is also present in any kind of religious upbringing.

[01:13:57] Right.

[01:13:58] It's like the dualism is, okay, there's, there's this place, but then there's also hell or there, there's this place and there's also heaven.

[01:14:08] So there's like two levels to existence in these, in this situation.

[01:14:16] And I almost feel like probably both of these are lies.

[01:14:20] This is my, my sense with Ms. Zell, Zellwig or Selwig and Cobell is that I don't trust her on the inside.

[01:14:31] I don't trust her on the outside.

[01:14:34] Everything feels like it's a prompt.

[01:14:36] Everything feels like it's carefully orchestrated to poke Mark, who's a rat in a maze and see what he does.

[01:14:44] Right.

[01:14:45] And you see that in the, in the hallway, right?

[01:14:47] I mean, that's what he's doing.

[01:14:48] He's making his way through like a rat's maze.

[01:14:50] Yeah.

[01:14:50] The other bifurcation here is that in the office, Cobell is very persnickety about the proper order of things.

[01:15:02] The right words to say at the right amount of time.

[01:15:05] Like everything down to like, you can request a handshake.

[01:15:08] Right.

[01:15:09] It's all according to protocol.

[01:15:11] Whereas on the outside, Ms. Zellwig, she can never get the stupid recycling and garbage schedule straight.

[01:15:19] Right.

[01:15:21] She's like, she's totally inept at anything that requires a schedule, a protocol or anything like that.

[01:15:27] So it's almost creating this angel on one shoulder, demon on the other shoulder kind of situation for Mark.

[01:15:36] Yeah.

[01:15:36] In one hand, you know, inside she's instructing Mark's behaviors down to the T.

[01:15:42] In the other one, she's treating him.

[01:15:44] And he's like, almost has to become a leader to her by virtue of her, of him needing.

[01:15:50] Like you can never figure out.

[01:15:51] He has to step up.

[01:15:52] He has to step up to the plate around her.

[01:15:55] Whereas the other one, he's just told when to do whatever.

[01:15:59] So you're probably similar to me in the sense that when you're in an office setting, you probably are thinking like,

[01:16:08] this is kind of more of an episode of Survivor than it is an actual, the actual relationships that I'm building.

[01:16:15] Right.

[01:16:16] Yeah.

[01:16:16] I'm really bad at maintaining relationships with, you know, work friends.

[01:16:23] Like I have people that I, a job I used to have like a year ago.

[01:16:26] And they're just like, hey, when are we going to get together for drinks or this or that?

[01:16:31] And I'm real good at being like, yeah, that day works.

[01:16:33] And then not doing it.

[01:16:36] And it isn't even necessarily.

[01:16:38] Because in the office, when you're in the office, that's the right thing to say.

[01:16:42] But as soon as you leave the office, that's the last thing you want to do.

[01:16:45] Right.

[01:16:46] And right now, like there's no, I mean, and it isn't to say that I don't, like these people are fine, you know, and some I probably actually do enjoy.

[01:16:53] But I didn't know they existed before I got that job.

[01:16:58] And we just move on now.

[01:16:59] Right.

[01:17:00] I mean, it's like, that's fine.

[01:17:02] It's all right.

[01:17:03] It's.

[01:17:04] And it's funny how fast, like this shows a little bit of a critique on this, but it's funny how fast you shake off the office persona as soon as you're in the car on the way home.

[01:17:14] Oh, man.

[01:17:18] Yeah.

[01:17:18] Like, it's not a full on forgetting in the in the elevator situation.

[01:17:23] But as soon as you turn on that radio in your car.

[01:17:26] It's like you're an entirely.

[01:17:27] Oh, yeah.

[01:17:28] It's it's like it's it's like any scene in Mission Impossible when he rips his mask off.

[01:17:37] All right.

[01:17:38] Finally.

[01:17:39] Are there any.

[01:17:39] So spoiler alert to anyone who's doesn't want spoilers.

[01:17:43] Is there anything about this episode that you think about differently knowing the full arc of season one?

[01:17:49] Well, yeah.

[01:17:50] So because I mean, the waffle party changes a lot.

[01:17:54] Right.

[01:17:55] Because.

[01:17:58] Initially, you know, it really the idea of this incentive.

[01:18:02] And even Irv refers to it as like a children's breakfast.

[01:18:06] Right.

[01:18:06] As an incentive.

[01:18:07] Yeah.

[01:18:08] And.

[01:18:10] But it's certainly not that, you know, and.

[01:18:16] Yeah, I think that you I think that you referred to it in the past as.

[01:18:21] Eyes wide shut meets.

[01:18:24] Madagascar.

[01:18:25] Was it?

[01:18:26] Madagascar.

[01:18:29] Yeah.

[01:18:30] Yeah.

[01:18:30] So like things like that, when you start to look through the reveal, especially when you find out, you know, who Heli is.

[01:18:38] In the world.

[01:18:40] Like that's like this.

[01:18:42] So it creates the Heli intro really matters so much more.

[01:18:48] Right.

[01:18:48] Like because now you're seeing it through the the eyes of who she who she is as far as is part of the whole Lumen Corporation.

[01:18:56] Just going from this episode alone, you think, well, whoever she is, she keeps forcing herself to go back in that door.

[01:19:03] Right.

[01:19:03] Right.

[01:19:04] So there's enough of a of, you know, a breadcrumb trail there for you to connect the.

[01:19:09] Yeah.

[01:19:09] And it's wild not to look at.

[01:19:11] I don't really know anything about her.

[01:19:12] But man, she what kind of person would do that?

[01:19:15] Yeah.

[01:19:15] So the idea that she knows what she when she walks out that door that she knows she's going to she should know you're going back in like that's it.

[01:19:23] That's a crazy like that's a really interesting thing that.

[01:19:27] And that's why I think the show, I think, does such a good job is you do start to see them as two different characters.

[01:19:34] And and you do see that, you know, the the sort of the beta version of them is in the in the office.

[01:19:42] And so the idea that like you're like you're doing this to this person, but it's like they're doing it to themselves.

[01:19:46] And it's like it's it creates a really interesting thing about even like taking a step back is like.

[01:19:53] Oftentimes what we don't do is we don't know, you know, not to get like like we use the term like self-care is a very popular term right now.

[01:20:01] The idea that, you know, making time for you.

[01:20:04] And it's like the very fact that it's a kind of a notion that some people may kind of poo poo or even at least feel like a novelty is because, you know, especially when it comes to like work and, you know, the American system of work is you just do it.

[01:20:23] You know, it's just it's like life becomes whatever self-care is.

[01:20:28] It doesn't happen at the right.

[01:20:29] And life feels more like a discipline than something to experience.

[01:20:32] Right.

[01:20:32] When self-care allows you to sort of break from that for a second and say, take care of yourself.

[01:20:36] Do something for you.

[01:20:38] And so this idea that this they keep pushing their their work selves or this other person back into this world, they have no idea what they're going through.

[01:20:48] But it's like it's what's like.

[01:20:49] So they've divorced themselves from this idea that they're like they don't even know if they're like the idea that they're torturing somebody.

[01:20:54] But the person they're torturing is themselves is a very odd and kind of a really deep thing to kind of consider.

[01:21:03] And then when the notion of self-care is like, well, do we need self-care because we do self-mutilation?

[01:21:09] You know, is that is that the other side of it?

[01:21:12] Is that the reason why we need to take time for ourselves is because we give up so much for some other reason, whether it's practicality or or, you know, what or obligation or whatever it is that we think we need to do these things for.

[01:21:26] Or is like the very fact that we have to take a break to be nice to ourselves suggests that we're maybe the self-care is just stop being stop pushing yourself through that door to be tortured or whatever it might be.

[01:21:39] Well, right.

[01:21:40] Yeah.

[01:21:41] And I think a lot of people will do that because they do.

[01:21:45] I mean, there is a there is a legit metaphor to be had here about people feeling trapped in their jobs, whether it's by way of golden handcuffs or just because they feel like they're a dead end in other ways.

[01:22:01] So this I just think this is a really unique show, really interesting commentary, very relatable to almost anyone who's ever had a job.

[01:22:12] Right.

[01:22:12] Especially relatable to people who have ever had waffles.

[01:22:17] Well, and it's great to see a high concept that is like this is in many ways.

[01:22:23] This is this is this can be perceived as like kind of heavy sci fi, but it's really but it's accessible.

[01:22:29] And that's again, I think a lot of credit goes to Ben Stiller for being able to find this balancing act of maintaining a relatable world.

[01:22:39] Well, like as as the episodes go on, he turns the heat up on the bazaar and it never feels so out of reach.

[01:22:48] I mean, it's I mean, some of these bizarre things like come on.

[01:22:50] But like the world that he's created as the heat goes up, it's like it almost feels like, well, it would have to.

[01:22:57] Right.

[01:22:57] You know, it would have to get a little weirder as you get into this.

[01:23:01] And and it's like it becomes a really fun ride.

[01:23:04] Yeah.

[01:23:04] The on ramp here is pretty easy.

[01:23:07] I mean, you take it.

[01:23:09] The sci fi isn't an entirely new world.

[01:23:12] It's a world that you could imagine with just a little tweak to neuroscience.

[01:23:17] Right.

[01:23:17] Right.

[01:23:18] Yeah.

[01:23:18] And then, you know, then the fun part is how how far can you take this?

[01:23:24] Which makes me look forward to season two, because basically for Helly's plot, you know, I'm really curious to see what they do with Helly in season two.

[01:23:36] Well, there's so much.

[01:23:37] Right.

[01:23:37] And there's and so like we talk about how this episode like raises more questions than answers.

[01:23:44] And that's what the whole season does.

[01:23:46] Right.

[01:23:46] I mean, it finishes in such a way.

[01:23:49] And then you're like not only what's going to happen to them now, but it's also like I start to wonder, like, well, is there a third version that we're not seeing yet?

[01:23:58] You know, like, is that like where how many is it?

[01:24:02] This is the simple two bifurcated situation or is there more to it?

[01:24:07] I mean, there's a lot.

[01:24:08] There's so much that it can happen.

[01:24:09] Yeah.

[01:24:10] Who's the board?

[01:24:12] Yeah.

[01:24:12] You know, what's going to happen to Miss Cobell?

[01:24:14] Well, I think that she's been fired at the end of episode at the end of the season.

[01:24:20] Anyway, a lot to discuss next week.

[01:24:23] Indeed.

[01:24:24] When we cover episode two.

[01:24:36] Franco the Beans.

[01:24:38] We'll see you next week.