Steve and Anthony discuss work incentives, office-place personalities, and melons.
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[00:00:03] Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay?
[00:00:12] You are listening to a Howard Plus Lorehounds production. We continue our episode-by-episode rewatch of the Apple TV sci-fi, Severance.
[00:00:24] If you're wondering, hey, where's John? And where's David? I love those guys. I will respond by saying, your heart's in the right place. Definitely miss those guys.
[00:00:35] For season one, it's just Steve and I. John and David will join for our coverage of season two.
[00:00:43] But that does not stop you from checking out all of their fine podcasts, take a look at what's going on with the Lorehounds at thelorehounds.com, and consider becoming a Patreon member.
[00:00:54] Alright, here is Steve to talk about episode two.
[00:01:03] Steve, does your Audi like the sound of radar?
[00:01:07] That's such an amazing line.
[00:01:12] I mean, these fun facts about Irv's Audi.
[00:01:17] Like, you know, your Audi got a trophy and a picture in the paper?
[00:01:25] He's skilled at kissing and lovemaking.
[00:01:27] And lovemaking.
[00:01:29] I mean, but that fact is sort of equally presented with, he likes the sound of radar.
[00:01:37] Well, they're supposed to all be equal, right? Like, you can't show preference to one particular trait.
[00:01:46] So, either they think that Irv is going to be like, horned up by a radar.
[00:01:52] Yeah.
[00:01:52] Radar.
[00:01:53] He can't get a boner unless he hears the radar blip.
[00:01:56] Or they think, or this thing is entirely designed to completely mess with his head.
[00:02:03] Right.
[00:02:04] Which seems like the more likely option.
[00:02:07] Yeah, exactly.
[00:02:09] So, this whole thing is interesting to me because it almost feels like a slow descent into psychological torture.
[00:02:19] Right.
[00:02:20] Because otherwise, like, they'd have a nap room or they'd have ping pong tables or something to kind of mix it up.
[00:02:27] Because what you're asking these people to do is to live their entire conscious existence in this really sterile place with no windows.
[00:02:39] I mean, but then they offer the things like the melon party or whatever.
[00:02:43] Right.
[00:02:44] This whole thing has got me a little bit...
[00:02:46] So, wait.
[00:02:47] Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.
[00:02:48] I would enjoy a melon party.
[00:02:50] Oh, yeah.
[00:02:50] I'm a big melon guy.
[00:02:52] I think we've talked about this.
[00:02:56] And what's your melon of choice?
[00:02:58] So, I like to explore the space with melons.
[00:03:02] Oh.
[00:03:03] Like, I...
[00:03:05] You're talking about, like, combinations?
[00:03:07] Well, like, I mean, I, you know, I love a honeydew.
[00:03:11] I love a cantaloupe.
[00:03:13] This is beginning to sound very sexual.
[00:03:16] I'm not comfortable with this conversation.
[00:03:20] I, yeah, I mean, I went through...
[00:03:22] So, there was like a period where I was going through some, like, just give me all the melons.
[00:03:27] Give me the Santa Claus melon.
[00:03:28] Give me the kiss melons.
[00:03:31] Give me all the melons.
[00:03:32] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:33] And, uh...
[00:03:34] And I got to a point where I think the household was getting tired of my, my melon.
[00:03:40] Uh...
[00:03:41] I wouldn't go so far as to say fetish, but it was definitely an appreciation.
[00:03:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:46] Um...
[00:03:46] So, like, I get the melons and it was exciting for a while.
[00:03:48] You know, people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, this is really good melon.
[00:03:51] This is so sweet.
[00:03:51] And then I just, like, every time...
[00:03:52] So, it wasn't the melons, it was you.
[00:03:54] Yeah.
[00:03:56] They were...
[00:03:56] I was like, I'm happy with your delight over the melons.
[00:03:59] Right.
[00:04:00] Because it's one of those things where it's like, hey, why don't you just go eat the melon
[00:04:02] and not narrate how much you enjoy that particular melon?
[00:04:07] Like, it was like live, like, like tweets or Yelps on this melon.
[00:04:13] Like, oh, this one's not as sweet as the last one.
[00:04:15] Texture's okay.
[00:04:16] Like, just shut up and eat the melon.
[00:04:19] And then I realized, like, oh, man, I got a lot of melon and nobody else is eating this
[00:04:22] melon.
[00:04:23] So, I would just go, now I'm getting to a point where I'm like, I'm eating way too much melon.
[00:04:26] Well, then you got to get evangelistic about the melon.
[00:04:29] That's right.
[00:04:29] You got to try this.
[00:04:30] You got to try the melon.
[00:04:31] Yeah.
[00:04:32] Oh, no, I was...
[00:04:34] I noticed people weren't coming home anymore.
[00:04:37] Like, my daughter and wife had to work late.
[00:04:41] That's just...
[00:04:42] If we leave him in the house with the melon long enough, he will consume all of the melon.
[00:04:46] Like, he's either going to be eating melon or having diarrhea from the melon.
[00:04:50] So, we have a window.
[00:04:53] So, I feel like maybe we are reading this incorrectly, but I'll save that.
[00:04:59] Let's just go ahead and start with the first storyline here.
[00:05:02] So, the previous day, Hellie undergoes the severance procedure as a new employee implanting
[00:05:09] a microchip inside of her brain.
[00:05:13] So, this begins earlier than the previous episode.
[00:05:19] Right.
[00:05:20] And we finally see the...
[00:05:23] You know, this...
[00:05:25] A little bit of our conversation yesterday was the kinds of things that they're testing
[00:05:29] for Hellie after the procedure.
[00:05:31] And one of the things was Mr. Egan's favorite breakfast.
[00:05:35] Right.
[00:05:35] Yeah.
[00:05:36] And so, this kind of confirms that they are trying to test for short-term memory as well.
[00:05:42] Right.
[00:05:42] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:43] And like...
[00:05:44] You know, and not just that, but like it's...
[00:05:47] It's a memory that you would have.
[00:05:49] Because it was a bizarre thing.
[00:05:52] And so, like, it's one of those things that you would, like, make a specific mental note of
[00:05:56] when you heard it, like, to share that information.
[00:05:58] Yeah, because either Milchek is a psychopath, which he might be anyway, or he's just really excited
[00:06:06] about this particular fact about Mr. Egan or whatever.
[00:06:11] Right.
[00:06:11] Which makes him a little odd.
[00:06:14] A little odd.
[00:06:15] Right?
[00:06:15] So, yeah.
[00:06:18] So, my feeling is now that I know this about Hellie, there's gotta be something about her
[00:06:27] that makes her an especially important employee.
[00:06:32] Yeah.
[00:06:33] Even though she's being hired at a lower level or something.
[00:06:36] Yeah, because Milchek is...
[00:06:40] He's, like, kind of humbled, it seems like, to be around her.
[00:06:44] Later on, he says it's a miracle what you're doing.
[00:06:47] Right.
[00:06:48] This procedure that she undergoes, do you have any thoughts on this scene?
[00:06:53] I mean, it's a bit graphic.
[00:06:54] Yeah, it's deep.
[00:06:55] That was the first thing I thought of.
[00:06:57] That is a deep, deep drill.
[00:06:59] You're seeing her skull, you're seeing the drill into her skull.
[00:07:03] She's awake.
[00:07:04] Yeah, the awake part was interesting, right?
[00:07:06] Like, why?
[00:07:08] And she's just sitting there like she's at the dentist, like, with a fake smile on her face
[00:07:13] or whatever.
[00:07:14] Yeah, unsettling.
[00:07:15] Yeah, if someone's gonna drill into my skull, I wanna be put out.
[00:07:19] That's just me.
[00:07:21] I'm...
[00:07:22] I know that I might present as a little bit cowardly, but I want...
[00:07:26] That's my preference.
[00:07:28] I would like to be put under if you're gonna start drilling.
[00:07:32] I don't wanna hear...
[00:07:33] I don't wanna feel a vibration, number one.
[00:07:35] I don't wanna hear my skull...
[00:07:38] Right.
[00:07:38] Being bored.
[00:07:40] Yeah, I go to the ear doctor a bit.
[00:07:43] And...
[00:07:44] One thing that they...
[00:07:46] One thing that they do now is they have...
[00:07:50] They have a big screen in front of you so you can see what they're doing inside your ear.
[00:07:55] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:55] I hate it.
[00:07:58] I hate it.
[00:07:59] I hate it.
[00:07:59] Like, why do you...
[00:07:59] Why?
[00:07:59] I don't...
[00:08:00] How is this helping me?
[00:08:02] He's like, do you see what's in here?
[00:08:03] I'm like, yeah, it's gross.
[00:08:06] And...
[00:08:06] This is...
[00:08:06] I'm not getting paid to look at this.
[00:08:08] Right.
[00:08:08] You are.
[00:08:09] And I'm like, I don't...
[00:08:10] Am I here to give you a second opinion?
[00:08:12] Like, I'm not.
[00:08:14] And then it's like...
[00:08:15] And then you hear it all.
[00:08:16] You can't not hear it.
[00:08:17] So, like, when there's suctioning, it's like...
[00:08:21] It's such a surreal thing.
[00:08:23] And I'm watching and trying not to watch.
[00:08:25] And all of a sudden it suctions and then like grabs like a piece of inner ear meat.
[00:08:28] And it's like...
[00:08:29] And I'm like, oh, I don't like this at all.
[00:08:35] This is one of the big differences, which is me and my wife because Sarah's really interested in like everything that's going on inside of her body.
[00:08:44] If she could like look and see what the doctor was doing.
[00:08:47] If she could be awake during a surgery and like take a look inside there, she would absolutely do it.
[00:08:52] I don't even want to think about what's happening inside my head.
[00:08:55] Yeah, totally.
[00:08:56] Like, as far as I know, I'm skin all the way through.
[00:09:00] Yeah, you're Martin Short, she's Dennis Quaid, and you guys are just gonna have to...
[00:09:04] That's right.
[00:09:06] I have to co-exist.
[00:09:10] When's the last time you saw Innerspace?
[00:09:12] It's been a while.
[00:09:13] I try to coax my wife to watch Innerspace and...
[00:09:17] And I don't even know if I got to the word space in the compound now and then she was already on her way out of the room.
[00:09:27] No, no, no, take a bite of the melon.
[00:09:31] She's like, you know what, I'd rather go check on the melon then.
[00:09:34] Alright, next segment here.
[00:09:38] At the office, the severed heli is introduced to her new co-workers, Dylan and Irving, and is instructed that her job is to sort encrypted numbers into digital bins as part of macro data refinement.
[00:09:56] So this is kind of the first thing...
[00:09:59] I mean, I guess there's a bunch of different mystery boxes, but for me, one of the most interesting mystery boxes of this show is what these numbers indicate.
[00:10:09] Right.
[00:10:09] So I think we might have talked before.
[00:10:11] And how they scare you.
[00:10:13] Yeah, like why are they...
[00:10:15] Like how do they evoke an emotional response?
[00:10:21] Are these...
[00:10:23] Are they actually doing anything in the real world?
[00:10:26] I love the theories.
[00:10:29] One is that it's...
[00:10:30] They're killing killer eels.
[00:10:34] What's better, the killer eel theory or the taking swear words out of movies?
[00:10:43] I like the idea that like, to get swear words out of a movie, you have to create a whole different like, company and department to do that remotely.
[00:10:54] Well, you don't want the people to be subjected to the swear words.
[00:10:59] Exactly.
[00:11:00] Exactly.
[00:11:00] Right.
[00:11:04] All right.
[00:11:05] So I also like in this section, there are different things you can win by being a good employee.
[00:11:13] And it's not about what they are.
[00:11:15] It's about what they represent.
[00:11:17] It's about what they represent.
[00:11:18] But here they are.
[00:11:19] They're finger traps.
[00:11:21] Erasers.
[00:11:22] They're erasers.
[00:11:23] They're caricature portraits.
[00:11:26] You've got a ton, as you can see.
[00:11:30] And I like that he like, later in the episode, he talks, he points out that the erasers are mostly decorative.
[00:11:41] Because there are no pencils or whatever.
[00:11:45] And then that makes me think, so how is the finger trap not mostly decorative?
[00:11:50] Like, I guess you could actually put your fingers in it.
[00:11:55] I guess.
[00:11:56] Yeah.
[00:11:57] And you would know which ones are like, oh yeah, this one's the hardest one.
[00:12:02] Really hard to get into this.
[00:12:04] So a finger trap to me is like, it's probably one of the stupidest things ever invented.
[00:12:10] Right.
[00:12:12] But it will entertain, you know, a seven year old, if you want to entertain a seven year old, before the seven year old decides that they're going to just break it.
[00:12:23] Well, they're the classic, I only have like three tickets left at Scandia.
[00:12:32] And I guess, and you can't not, I mean like, the idea of saving and banking is hard when you're young.
[00:12:38] So you're like, well, yeah, let's just get the finger trap, you know.
[00:12:40] So you got the token, you're thinking, what am I going to do with that?
[00:12:43] It's token.
[00:12:43] And then, Jesus, maybe I'll do a skee-ball game.
[00:12:47] Yeah.
[00:12:48] Then you get on a little bit of a run.
[00:12:50] Do the skee-ball.
[00:12:51] Then what you do is, after the skee-ball is done, you wiggle that last ticket out.
[00:12:59] So you get one more ticket.
[00:13:02] You get it to break behind.
[00:13:04] Yeah.
[00:13:04] That's always the best.
[00:13:05] Yeah.
[00:13:05] Because if it's your last game, you know, you're not stealing from yourself.
[00:13:11] Right.
[00:13:12] And then, of course, you bring that over to the table and now you have to choose something.
[00:13:19] And, of course, the option, the best thing to do, I think, in most people's mind, is just to buy the most expensive thing.
[00:13:30] Like, you know, if you got 120 tickets and they're selling something for 110 tickets, and that's what you can afford, that's what you want.
[00:13:40] But then that means that what you are getting is the most expensive thing and one of the least expensive things.
[00:13:46] Right.
[00:13:47] Because you've got that remainder.
[00:13:50] So you'll probably walk out with like, you know, like a mini basketball and a finger trap.
[00:13:58] Right.
[00:13:59] Maybe more than one finger trap.
[00:14:00] That's even worse.
[00:14:02] Well, maybe I'll give this to somebody.
[00:14:04] Yeah.
[00:14:05] If you've got a, you know, if you've got a little brother or sister, you know, that might be a little prank that you play on them, I guess.
[00:14:12] Yeah.
[00:14:13] Yeah, it reminds me of like, I always liked the old version of Wheel of Fortune where they didn't get like they got money but they had to spend it in the shop.
[00:14:22] Do you remember that?
[00:14:25] Yeah.
[00:14:26] So like after each round, like, okay, you won, you know, $5,000.
[00:14:30] And it's like, oh, right.
[00:14:31] Yeah.
[00:14:31] $5,000.
[00:14:32] Okay.
[00:14:32] Now you got to go in like this little shopping spree.
[00:14:35] Yeah.
[00:14:35] And they have like a little showcase.
[00:14:36] And inevitably, like you'd get what you want.
[00:14:39] And then you go, okay, well, you have like $200 left.
[00:14:41] And you're like, I get the ceramic Dalmatian.
[00:14:46] There's always a ceramic like Dalmatian and ceramic Greyhound.
[00:14:50] I would love to, to now get my hands on somebody who's just still sitting on one of those, one of those Wheel of Fortune dogs.
[00:15:01] I'm assuming that there's tons of those just floating around Southern California garage sales.
[00:15:10] Dude, I would just sit there and I'd be rooting.
[00:15:11] I'm like, he's gonna have to get the dog.
[00:15:15] When you watch somebody win two, and then they end up like in having to settle for the like two dogs.
[00:15:21] I just love it.
[00:15:23] Like, all right, you're going to the Bahamas and here's two ceramic dogs.
[00:15:32] I find myself viewing Dylan differently this watch.
[00:15:36] Oh yeah.
[00:15:36] I mean, I think that he was just sort of a delight to me before.
[00:15:41] But now that I'm watching it with you, I'm kind of feeling like, actually, if you had to actually work next to Dylan, he would probably be really annoying.
[00:15:50] Right.
[00:15:52] I mean, he's really fun to watch.
[00:15:56] It's like, if you live next to, you know, if you live next to Kramer.
[00:16:00] Right, right.
[00:16:01] You know, it's, it's, N words aside, you know, he's a little quirky, right?
[00:16:06] Yeah.
[00:16:08] So, you know, it's kind of fun to watch him menace Jerry.
[00:16:14] It wouldn't, it'd be a little bit less fun if he was actually you.
[00:16:17] If you were Jerry.
[00:16:19] Yeah, right.
[00:16:22] So anyway, he's explaining that these things are, you know, things that you can win.
[00:16:30] And he's very proud of them.
[00:16:32] And he's a proud, he's proud enough to show Helly his sort of various prizes.
[00:16:37] Right.
[00:16:38] And then she says, well, what about that etching of Mark on, on his desk?
[00:16:45] And he totally dismisses it.
[00:16:46] He's like, ah, it's not a prize.
[00:16:48] It's just something that they gave him.
[00:16:50] Right, right.
[00:16:50] He didn't like, yeah.
[00:16:51] So he didn't, there's no, no competitive factor in his mind.
[00:16:56] I'm like, well, what are these things?
[00:16:59] Are the, isn't that not what a prize is?
[00:17:01] Right.
[00:17:02] Something that someone, but I guess he thinks I earned these.
[00:17:05] Right, right.
[00:17:07] This guy is delighting me.
[00:17:09] I think he's hilarious.
[00:17:10] I do think that he's a little bit of a tool.
[00:17:13] So it's interesting.
[00:17:15] So when I, you know, having spent a good chunk of time in corporate America, you always go through various trainings to like learn how to work with people and learning what, like what motivates people.
[00:17:27] And then one of the ones we went through was, there's, I forget the name of it, but it was primarily using like a red, blue, green color wheel.
[00:17:39] And you would answer a series of questions that would chart you on that color wheel as what you were like in your standard state.
[00:17:48] Like what's your, you know, everything's fine.
[00:17:50] You know, what's your default position?
[00:17:52] What motivates you, right?
[00:17:54] And then you would answer a series of questions to see what you would be like under like a stressful situation.
[00:17:59] And then you would map that and see what, like, where do you start and where do you end up?
[00:18:03] So that way, and then you can, so you kind of know what motivates people in general.
[00:18:08] And then you would kind of get an idea of understand how they respond to, to conflict or, or stress or crisis, and then kind of see, help you navigate and maybe take less things personally.
[00:18:20] So like the red would be that, that little third was the area that was sort of driven to win competitive.
[00:18:28] Okay.
[00:18:29] You know, so, so that, and then, so the negative side of that, like the positive side of that, that's somebody who won your team.
[00:18:34] That's really gonna, gonna push the others and really move towards, you know, completing all these deadlines and this and that they're, they're, they're motivated by the work in some degree.
[00:18:45] But then the negative side of that is they can become competitive to the point where their success might mean somebody else needs to fail.
[00:18:53] Right.
[00:18:54] So then there's the blue and the blue is they're much more personally motivated.
[00:18:59] They're motivated by the human interaction between their coworkers and, and you know, they're the ones that are gonna ask you about your weekend.
[00:19:08] They're gonna be the ones that are asking how your kids are doing.
[00:19:10] Right.
[00:19:10] And, and they may share a little bit more of that.
[00:19:13] They want to find a connection, but the downside of that, like, especially in conflict or whatever, they may, they, they now will start taking things very personal.
[00:19:20] They will take any criticism as an attack.
[00:19:22] They could become a standoffish in that regard because they are feeling like, you know, the, this is not business anymore.
[00:19:31] Um, and then you have the green, which is, uh, data driven, right?
[00:19:36] So these are, these are the folks that are, uh, you know, that they're very factually motivated.
[00:19:42] They want the information.
[00:19:44] They will do the investigation.
[00:19:45] They will, you know, present the best arguments.
[00:19:48] The downside is that they could get the, what they call paralysis by analysis.
[00:19:52] Now you're just, you're, well, what about this?
[00:19:54] What about this?
[00:19:54] What about this?
[00:19:55] To the point where you're not actually accomplishing anything.
[00:19:56] You're meeting to set up meetings to set up meetings.
[00:19:59] Then there's the hub and the hub is sort of like right there in the middle, like bullseye.
[00:20:03] And that's a balance of all three.
[00:20:07] So when I, so I think about that a lot because I see a certain representative of that here, right?
[00:20:12] Like Irv and so like, I mean, obviously, uh, like Irv strikes me as a little more data driven, right?
[00:20:20] Like he's, he's very much, these are the rules.
[00:20:23] Right.
[00:20:24] This is that right.
[00:20:25] Uh, Mark being, um, probably a little bit more in the blue, right?
[00:20:29] He seems to, to have a little bit more of a personal relate.
[00:20:32] We've see it with, with his reaction to Petey being gone.
[00:20:35] We, uh, way he, he sort of ditches the playbook to sort of, uh, work with Helly.
[00:20:42] Um, right.
[00:20:43] Yeah.
[00:20:44] That makes sense.
[00:20:45] Yeah.
[00:20:45] Yeah.
[00:20:46] And, uh, and of course, uh, you've got Dylan's competitiveness, right?
[00:20:51] He wants to win.
[00:20:53] So, so Helly, we're not, so Helly is sort of just like, I don't know if we know where
[00:20:57] she's at yet.
[00:20:59] I think you're probably right on that.
[00:21:01] I would say that Irv is very data driven, uh, maybe until he meets Bert and then maybe
[00:21:10] you see a shift, uh, in that respect.
[00:21:14] Well, and so here's the thing is it's an actually Heather and I took this, I brought her home
[00:21:18] to kind of get an idea.
[00:21:19] And like, I, she starts off very blue.
[00:21:23] So very personal.
[00:21:24] She's much more of the relationship driven, but when there was conflict or stress, she
[00:21:28] would go, she would shoot very far to the red.
[00:21:31] So if there's any melons involved, she goes from blue to red.
[00:21:34] Yeah.
[00:21:35] So it's, you know, and then red can be like, all right, now I want to win this argument
[00:21:39] maybe more than I want to resolve the issue.
[00:21:43] Um, and it was helpful to know that.
[00:21:47] Right.
[00:21:47] And then I was a hub and when I was in conflict, uh, I didn't move.
[00:21:54] Interesting.
[00:21:54] And so that was kind of telling for, it was helpful for her.
[00:21:58] Cause she's like, oh, well this makes a lot of sense because when we get in arguments,
[00:22:01] you don't, she always interpreted it as I was just not engaged.
[00:22:06] Cause she's like, why don't you blow up?
[00:22:08] Why don't you get like, why don't you move?
[00:22:11] And it's, and so I don't.
[00:22:13] And so it becomes like, so the frustration can be, well, now, now I'm just kinda, I've
[00:22:19] got good arguments or at least I'm creating more frustrating arguments because I'm able
[00:22:26] to think on my feet a little bit more because I'm not maybe consumed with, you know, a different
[00:22:31] type of reaction.
[00:22:33] Um, so it's an interesting thing to see is like, maybe we will see the transition from
[00:22:38] one area to the next, like, just because they're, you know, you know, maybe in stress, we'll
[00:22:43] see Dylan go, maybe, maybe he goes to blue when maybe he gets more personal with things
[00:22:47] or maybe that same thing with her, right?
[00:22:49] It goes from data to blue or we'll see, right?
[00:22:51] We'll see how, you know, in, in conflict will, will Mark become more competitive or, you know,
[00:22:57] so those, those are interesting aspects of the office culture that I think is, uh, I don't
[00:23:02] know if these things are, are directly, um, feeding the creation of these characters,
[00:23:07] but, uh, I can't help but notice it.
[00:23:10] So how this test, how, how, uh, prevalent do you think this test is in corporate America?
[00:23:16] I would say probably pretty prevalent.
[00:23:19] If not that specific one, a variation of it.
[00:23:22] I've, I've seen lots of similar, uh, approaches.
[00:23:27] I know, um, a mutual friend of ours, they, they do, they do this walk through their church
[00:23:33] and it's very, I mean, it's, it's a little bit different, but it's kind of, it's the
[00:23:36] same concept, but it's like, it feels like you're, you're searching for the same information.
[00:23:42] So it's, it's a little bit like the, like doing a personality test to learn about yourself
[00:23:48] and learn about your coworkers, but it's specifically focused on kind of the, the qualities that you
[00:23:56] would want in a corporate environment.
[00:23:59] Right.
[00:23:59] And it helps you also know how to navigate, right?
[00:24:03] Like, so if you know that you have a, if you have a, a person on your team that will go
[00:24:08] maybe a little more competitive, like as a, as a manager was really helpful.
[00:24:11] Right.
[00:24:12] So I know how to kind of deal with these personalities a little bit more when, uh, when things are
[00:24:17] getting tough.
[00:24:17] Like, Oh, I know I have to, I, this person's going to need some, some check-ins.
[00:24:21] They're gonna need me to want to say, Hey, how's, how's everything going?
[00:24:23] How you feeling?
[00:24:24] You know, that kind of stuff.
[00:24:25] So that helps help me know that I can't just, you know, one size doesn't necessarily fit all
[00:24:31] for all the people when you're trying to manage them.
[00:24:32] Like that's, I think that's one of the goals.
[00:24:34] And then like, how do you navigate with each other?
[00:24:36] So we, people actually put them up on their, uh, like cubicles so people could see it.
[00:24:41] Right.
[00:24:42] You can see how they, how they motivate.
[00:24:45] Uh, all right.
[00:24:47] Well, maybe, uh, in a future podcast, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll do this little test.
[00:24:52] How long does it take to do this test?
[00:24:54] Uh, not very long.
[00:24:56] And I mean, it's this test.
[00:24:57] We learn a little something about each other.
[00:24:58] Yeah.
[00:24:59] I mean, it's right up there with like, you know, which golden girl are you on Facebook
[00:25:02] or something, but.
[00:25:03] Mm.
[00:25:04] Okay.
[00:25:05] I'm, I'm Blanche by the way.
[00:25:08] Um, all right.
[00:25:09] So during.
[00:25:10] Everybody thinks they're a Blanche.
[00:25:11] Mm.
[00:25:13] Uh, during a welcome party headed by floor manager Milchick.
[00:25:19] Hellie becomes uncomfortable and attempts to escape by writing her outside self, a note
[00:25:25] of resignation, but the elevator shuts down.
[00:25:28] Mark claims is due to Lumen's built in code detectors, which prevent unauthorized communication
[00:25:34] between selves.
[00:25:35] Mark claims responsibility and is put into the break room as punishment.
[00:25:42] Uh, so there's a lot that happens in this particular section.
[00:25:47] One of the arguments that Mark gives for not quitting is because it will effectively end your Lumen
[00:25:56] life.
[00:25:57] Right.
[00:25:58] What do you think about this?
[00:25:59] It's an, it's a fascinating idea, right?
[00:26:02] Like, like, like if it were to happen, like if you could just get out, then yeah, that, that
[00:26:08] version of you would cease to exist.
[00:26:12] This really goes to demonstrate how they are so independent, at least from, from, from their
[00:26:19] minds perspective, from their Audi that they are the, you know, it isn't like, okay, well, if I
[00:26:25] stop existing, then I still live as myself, the full and complete, uh, me.
[00:26:33] But it's like, but then, but it is true.
[00:26:36] It is a death, right?
[00:26:37] I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's the longer, I think it becomes more true the longer you
[00:26:41] work there.
[00:26:42] Right.
[00:26:42] So if you, let's say you've been working there for 20 years and you decide to quit and
[00:26:48] wipe your memory, you've lost a big chunk of your life.
[00:26:54] Right.
[00:26:54] And effectively in ending that part of your life, the 30 year life.
[00:26:59] Right.
[00:26:59] For that period of time.
[00:26:59] But for Helly, it'd be like I blacked out and I lost 12 hours.
[00:27:04] Right.
[00:27:05] Yeah.
[00:27:05] The earlier you do it, the better one would think.
[00:27:08] So I don't feel like this is a good argument on Mark's part.
[00:27:12] I feel like this is, this is something that he's kind of resigned to live with himself.
[00:27:20] But if you look back, you know, if he looks back on like, if I would have quit day two,
[00:27:27] like Helly, then I wouldn't have this problem.
[00:27:30] Well, he's, so this is, uh, interesting.
[00:27:34] Cause I think this goes to like, if I'm going to use that same test, I think he's, we go like,
[00:27:39] this is where he's blue.
[00:27:40] Right.
[00:27:40] I mean, he's, he's relating to her on a personal level.
[00:27:44] This isn't a, Hey, this is the job.
[00:27:46] This is what you signed up for the Audi, you know, blah, blah, blah.
[00:27:49] Whether you like it or not.
[00:27:50] The you that is in the outside world does want the you that's on the inside to do this.
[00:27:55] Like that's how you would go through like more of a data driven approach.
[00:27:59] Um, you know, maybe the more competitive approach might come in and go, Hey, you know what?
[00:28:03] Fight through this.
[00:28:04] You're you're you're, you know, you can do this.
[00:28:06] You can, you know, try to motivate through success where he's coming through and going
[00:28:11] and going like, well, you'll die because that's where his, he sees it.
[00:28:15] Right.
[00:28:15] So he's not messing.
[00:28:15] I don't think he's doing a good job of making an argument for her, but he's making, he's
[00:28:19] revealing about himself.
[00:28:21] Like, well, and he's also the kind of guy who's like, I'm going to meet someone like
[00:28:25] Petey and he's going to be my best friend and he's going to be my world.
[00:28:32] Right.
[00:28:32] He's he, I'm, I'm so relational that my force of gravity will change to orbit my best friend.
[00:28:40] Right.
[00:28:41] And the idea of a best friend is pretty, it appears so far in this very limited world that
[00:28:46] we've seen unique to him.
[00:28:48] It's unique to him.
[00:28:51] And I mean, of course, I think we're going to see this eventually with Irv as well, uh,
[00:28:56] later in the episode, but, uh, he's the kind of guy who thinks my work best friend is
[00:29:02] my real best friend.
[00:29:04] Uh, whereas I think most people view this a little bit differently.
[00:29:09] I mean, or maybe that's just me.
[00:29:10] I, I, I, maybe I'm, I'm projecting a little bit of my own proclivities.
[00:29:14] Well, you know, like I said, we've talked about like, I have friends at work and then
[00:29:17] I stopped working at that place and I don't hang out with a man.
[00:29:19] Um, and right.
[00:29:22] And of course that would be completely different if that's, if that's the only culture that you
[00:29:27] understand.
[00:29:28] The only version of life I knew was, was dependent on, and I wanted to make friends and it was
[00:29:34] dependent on having friends.
[00:29:36] And that's, it gets a fascinating thing too, because the outside, uh, Mark is not friendly.
[00:29:42] He's not, he's not really, at least post, at least post incident.
[00:29:48] Right.
[00:29:49] But I mean, uh, but I think that that's, so I think it is a fascinating thing that we're
[00:29:53] getting to see.
[00:29:55] So in this bit of the program, we, they play this little icebreaker game with the ball.
[00:30:03] Mm.
[00:30:05] Now I used to have to do this a lot.
[00:30:07] I used to have to do these games a lot.
[00:30:09] I used to have to design these games.
[00:30:11] I used to have to like think up new games.
[00:30:14] Have you ever had to play these games?
[00:30:18] Like the get to know you games?
[00:30:20] Oh yeah.
[00:30:21] If you recall, I was in charge of icebreakers for a while.
[00:30:24] Okay.
[00:30:24] Well, yeah, forgot.
[00:30:28] I forgot.
[00:30:29] I forgot that you were, this was actually part of your job description.
[00:30:32] So, um, what, what have you ever seen a game like this work effectively?
[00:30:40] I know.
[00:30:43] Okay.
[00:30:44] I mean, there are, I guess there are people that might be, look, icebreak, especially when
[00:30:52] we're doing corporate ones, like, like that we're going to do a corporate offsite.
[00:30:55] All we care about is like, what's the menu?
[00:31:00] Can we drink?
[00:31:02] Uh huh.
[00:31:03] How much of actual work are we going to not have to do?
[00:31:08] Very rarely is it like, oh, this is going to make us a better cohesive team.
[00:31:15] All right.
[00:31:16] Uh, so in this game, Irv says that he likes all Lumen's principles equally, but right.
[00:31:26] So that's so funny to me.
[00:31:27] That is such a, such an amazing, like what it's so creepy.
[00:31:33] The whole sequence.
[00:31:35] The whole thing.
[00:31:36] Like if you're looking at from Helly's perspective, this whole thing just seems like a science experiment.
[00:31:41] Oh yeah.
[00:31:42] I mean, it's so funny cause it's like, it's amusing, but it's super, super creepy.
[00:31:48] Cause it's, it's, it re and also it feels like a really nice critique on, uh, corporate
[00:31:55] attempts.
[00:31:56] Like it feels like there are people that when they make these decisions and like the human
[00:32:00] resources gets together with the executive team and go, Hey, this would be a great idea
[00:32:04] for these people.
[00:32:05] It's like, you don't know how people are.
[00:32:07] You don't know how people work.
[00:32:09] I love that there are nine core principles.
[00:32:12] I feel like this is what happens with older institutions, like especially corporate institutions.
[00:32:19] You, you, you have like, maybe start with like three core principles and then over time it's
[00:32:25] like, yeah, but we're, society has changed and, and our, our, our workforce has changed and
[00:32:33] the ownership has changed.
[00:32:35] So let's add a couple.
[00:32:37] And then you get like a, you know, brainstorming event where you, you know, you, you do a little
[00:32:43] retreat and then you come up with a couple new core principles, nine core principles means
[00:32:50] that this has been going on for a while.
[00:32:53] And, uh, and I like that one of them is cheer.
[00:32:56] Yeah.
[00:32:57] Cheers. Great.
[00:32:58] Cheers. A wonderful one.
[00:33:00] He says for the purposes of this game, cheer.
[00:33:03] And he, Irv gets this tiny little mischievous grin.
[00:33:09] Like, like it's, it really is like, he's really loves this particular principle.
[00:33:16] And, and cheer is such a great, um, like cheer is one of those words that you'll only use
[00:33:23] around Christmas.
[00:33:25] Right. Yeah.
[00:33:25] It's not one that is used.
[00:33:27] You use it like maybe to cheer up.
[00:33:29] I mean, I guess you have cheer leaders.
[00:33:32] Right.
[00:33:33] But you never really think of that.
[00:33:34] Right.
[00:33:34] Like when you think of a cheerleader and you think of a cheer, you're going to be
[00:33:37] I never really consider that like, oh yeah, that's going to give us, that's going to make
[00:33:41] us feel good.
[00:33:42] I always think of it like this is a holiday thing.
[00:33:45] Like it's, you know, let's, let's spread some Christmas cheer or something.
[00:33:49] Right.
[00:33:49] Cheer outside of, outside of the context of cheerleading or Christmas.
[00:33:54] It makes almost no sense.
[00:33:56] It's cheers.
[00:33:57] Like it's the eggnog equivalent to an emotion.
[00:34:00] Right.
[00:34:01] Yeah.
[00:34:02] Like the rest of the year you're happy, but on Christmas you get to have cheer.
[00:34:09] Like, you know, when you hear somebody pray about over their food and then they use the
[00:34:13] word nourish.
[00:34:14] No one's using the word nourish.
[00:34:17] I don't even think scientists use the word nourish.
[00:34:20] All right.
[00:34:21] So, and then you have this really weird exchange with Mark where he's actually like this game
[00:34:29] is actually serving a particular purpose.
[00:34:32] Like Mark is visibly upset that he's lost his best friend.
[00:34:41] And this kind of crowd or icebreaker, you know, small group game is just kind of, it's kind of been created to allow these Lumen employees to connect with each other on kind of an interpersonal way.
[00:34:59] And Mark is ready to do it.
[00:35:01] He's in tears.
[00:35:02] And of course, Milchick completely shuts it down.
[00:35:07] Yeah.
[00:35:07] And so in other words, we only want the superficiality of your emotion.
[00:35:14] We do not want any real emotion here.
[00:35:17] Create a game that's supposed to, and it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
[00:35:21] Yeah.
[00:35:22] And that's, oh, that's not, we don't do that.
[00:35:25] And that's true.
[00:35:26] I mean, that's, I think that's exactly it.
[00:35:28] Like, no, these, these team building things are only created because they think that they will help and they're only needed to help to make you better functioning team here in this world.
[00:35:41] Yeah.
[00:35:42] It's, it's sort of like we're trying to create something out of the, out of the, out of these parts to create this hole that's a little bit lesser than the parts, you know, because we only want enough of you and your personality to make you fit into this particular machine.
[00:36:00] Right.
[00:36:01] So we're going to sort of use something like this game to craft you in the shape of a cog and your emotions.
[00:36:09] They're a little bit misshapen.
[00:36:11] We can't have those because at the end of this, we want to function like a machine.
[00:36:17] Right.
[00:36:19] Yeah.
[00:36:19] It's, it's a, it's pretty great.
[00:36:22] I mean, it's like, cause it does feel like in many ways, this is a bit of commentary.
[00:36:25] Yeah.
[00:36:26] This is sort of, I, again, slow burn into kind of a, a psychological torture situation.
[00:36:37] And, you know, even the little things like the game will do that to you.
[00:36:41] Uh, we meet, uh, Mr. Grainer for the first time, who as far as I can tell is like yard duty slash disciplinarian.
[00:36:52] Right.
[00:36:52] I feel like he's the person that's kind of out of place because most corporate institutions don't have this person on staff.
[00:37:02] Like he, he's almost like military police or something.
[00:37:07] And like, that's, this is when you start to feel like it ups the, the threat level in this place.
[00:37:13] Right.
[00:37:13] I mean, we, we, we've been seen in glimpse through like, you know, PD's cryptic warnings, but this is like the idea that this happens.
[00:37:23] And, and, uh, Mark knows who he is and sort of tries to, you know, smooth things over suggest this isn't maybe as rare an occasion as you might think.
[00:37:33] Like, like, and if you're, if you're in Hellie's from Hellie's perspective, it's like, oh, this every, every, I've only been here for 10 hours and I've, or things just keep seeming to disintegrate.
[00:37:46] Like, well, and she acts and I really appreciated this part of the episode.
[00:37:51] She acts exactly how I would have acted.
[00:37:54] She acts like, nope.
[00:37:55] All right, I'm done.
[00:37:56] I, I, I, this is enough.
[00:37:57] I've seen enough.
[00:37:58] Um, I'm writing myself a post-it note and I am getting the hell out of here.
[00:38:04] And of course, you know, this, they're not going to let this happen.
[00:38:08] And, um, I, I just feel like she's perfect.
[00:38:14] The way that she responds to this is perfect to allow the audience to feel like, you know, I, this is, this is me.
[00:38:22] This is sort of my representative in the room.
[00:38:24] Um, the code detectors, do you think the code detectors are a real thing?
[00:38:29] That's interesting, right?
[00:38:30] I mean, like, I'm assuming everything is, uh, like viewed, right?
[00:38:35] Like, it feels like everything would be, like, this place is not going to have cameras everywhere.
[00:38:39] Everything's monitored, but it just feels like, it's, it's more likely that there's someone looking through a camera.
[00:38:45] Right.
[00:38:46] If you were to slip something in your pocket, how would, I don't see how a code detector would.
[00:38:51] Um, and, uh, you know, Milchak was aware of what was going on.
[00:38:55] So he was there.
[00:38:57] Yeah.
[00:38:58] He saw the whole thing go down.
[00:38:59] So he could easily have put in a warning too.
[00:39:01] All right.
[00:39:02] Next storyline.
[00:39:03] Mark goes on an awkward date, gets drunk, and accosts an anti-illuminant activist.
[00:39:08] Later on, he's visited by Mrs. Selvig.
[00:39:12] All right.
[00:39:13] So I got a couple of setting questions for you, Steve.
[00:39:17] Do we know where this is located, and do we know when it is located?
[00:39:23] Um.
[00:39:24] Somewhere cold, right?
[00:39:26] Right, right.
[00:39:27] Yeah, I don't think we do, right?
[00:39:29] Because, you know, he, like, missed, you know, his, his date is sort of putting up with his shenanigans.
[00:39:35] And one of the things that he does is he, he assumes that she's from Minnesota, she's from Montana.
[00:39:42] And so this is in the real world, right?
[00:39:47] Right.
[00:39:48] Uh, this is somewhere remote, mountainous, and cold.
[00:39:54] But I don't think we know exactly where this is located.
[00:39:58] No, I, I think you're right.
[00:40:00] Um, yeah.
[00:40:02] And I think it's also interesting, like, so, we get the idea, you know, from, um, Hellie's questions that she gets asked.
[00:40:11] Like, you know, does she know, can she name any states?
[00:40:14] Right.
[00:40:14] I think it's, so, I think it is interesting that we have a moment where, um, now granted, he's been drinking, and he's obviously not super interested.
[00:40:21] But we have a moment where a state is brought up, and he doesn't remember it, even in that moment.
[00:40:28] Right?
[00:40:28] And, like, again, it could be simple as, he's drunk, he's really not that interested, and I totally get that.
[00:40:33] But I do find, like, you start looking for any kind of other clues as to, like, well, what's going on?
[00:40:38] Where, you know, so, so is that, you know, is that intentional?
[00:40:42] Is that something we're supposed to be cognizant of?
[00:40:46] Like, you know, because it's all, like, there's this Lumen subsidized housing, and then we've got Mrs. Selvig there.
[00:40:53] Like, is this a bigger, so it starts making me wonder, is this a bigger experiment that maybe other people don't realize that they're a part of?
[00:41:01] Because what are they protesting?
[00:41:02] What are these guys, what are the whole mind collective protesting is forced severance, right?
[00:41:06] Right.
[00:41:09] And, you know, and it could be this, these guys are coming up with, you know, worst case scenarios or conspiracy theories, or it's, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire, right?
[00:41:20] All right, one more question about setting.
[00:41:22] I do have some thoughts about that.
[00:41:24] But in the Lumen work environment, it almost has sort of a early 60s vibe.
[00:41:34] Mm-hmm.
[00:41:36] The light green, the fact that, like, there's one point where Irv is having this wellness check,
[00:41:45] and, you know, your Audi likes films, and he owns a machine that can play them.
[00:41:54] Like, there's no specific reference to, you know, what is this machine?
[00:41:59] Right.
[00:42:00] Is it a VCR?
[00:42:01] Is it a DVD player?
[00:42:03] You know, what is this thing?
[00:42:05] But they almost give no indication when you're in Lumen what year it is.
[00:42:11] Right.
[00:42:12] And the whole thing, you know, because it kind of has an early 60s mystique, you almost are disoriented as a viewer.
[00:42:24] But my feeling is that in the town outside, it's supposed to be modern day.
[00:42:29] Is that your impression?
[00:42:32] Yeah.
[00:42:33] Have we seen a cell phone?
[00:42:37] Have we?
[00:42:38] I don't know.
[00:42:42] I'll have to look a little bit closer on this next episode.
[00:42:45] Yeah.
[00:42:46] It's a little odd.
[00:42:47] Oh, we have.
[00:42:48] We do see a cell phone, right?
[00:42:49] Doesn't Petey have a cell phone at the end of this episode?
[00:42:55] Yeah, I think he does.
[00:42:56] I think you're probably right about that.
[00:42:57] He does have a cell phone.
[00:42:57] But it isn't, like, an iPhone.
[00:43:00] It's not.
[00:43:01] And he's also got, like, a little cassette player that he's playing the, you know, the recording of the break room thing.
[00:43:09] Right.
[00:43:09] That could easily be, you know.
[00:43:11] The technology used for Lumen seems pretty advanced when they do the chip and everything.
[00:43:18] Right, right, right.
[00:43:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:19] Of course.
[00:43:20] Of course.
[00:43:20] So, it's interesting.
[00:43:23] We're not quite sure what, where this is located.
[00:43:26] We're not quite sure when this is located.
[00:43:29] All right.
[00:43:30] So, when Mark is arguing with this young activist, he uses a past self argument.
[00:43:37] He basically says, did your past self enslave you by bringing you up the street to this block?
[00:43:48] And he's almost using that as an analogy, like saying, we are always going to be constricted by the choices our past self made.
[00:43:58] I happen to be a Lumen employee who chose the severance procedure.
[00:44:05] That's just the same as everyone else who makes a choice in the past and has to live with it in the present.
[00:44:10] Right.
[00:44:12] What do you think about this argument?
[00:44:17] It's revealing, right?
[00:44:18] I mean, I think it's, you know, the same way that we, the argument that he makes to Helly to try to convince her to stay is, you know, like, hey, you know, you'll effectively die.
[00:44:29] This version of you dies.
[00:44:32] Whether the good or bad, right?
[00:44:34] That's just a reality.
[00:44:37] And, and this becomes a revealing.
[00:44:38] So, that reveals a little bit maybe about himself.
[00:44:40] And it's like, okay, this is, because that's the same thing, right?
[00:44:43] Like, his, a choice was made on his behalf.
[00:44:46] Like, he basically is like, kind of like a Frankenstein situation, right?
[00:44:50] Like, I was created by somebody else created.
[00:44:55] Like, it turns out, yeah, sure, it's me on the outside.
[00:44:57] But I was created.
[00:44:59] I didn't ask to be created.
[00:45:00] But now here I am.
[00:45:02] And now I have to live with that.
[00:45:04] And I'd rather live like this than not live at all.
[00:45:08] That's, that's kind of where he's at, right?
[00:45:09] That's what that argument suggests.
[00:45:11] And then on the outside, it's like, well, I don't get to regret this almost, right?
[00:45:16] Like, it almost seems like I don't, I just have to make do.
[00:45:19] I made a decision.
[00:45:20] That version of me made a decision with less information than maybe I have now.
[00:45:25] And, and I can't undo that.
[00:45:28] Um, so it's, it's, like, he makes the argument that feels like a lamentation to some degree.
[00:45:39] It sounds, you know, it's very, to me, it sounds very similar to someone who is exposed to all of the things that are, you know, all,
[00:45:49] a religious person who has been exposed to all of the things that the religion has, uh, to, to account for.
[00:45:56] Like, all of the detriments of the religion.
[00:46:00] But then kind of responds a little bit too aggressively to say, yeah, but everything is messed up.
[00:46:05] Right.
[00:46:05] So my, my, you know, the, the sins of my religion are not any worse, better or worse than the sins of any, any kind of belief system or something like that.
[00:46:14] Right.
[00:46:15] It does strike me a little bit like he's a, he's sort of something of a loom and apologist.
[00:46:20] When the real reason why he's wanted, wanted severance is because he's severely broken.
[00:46:27] He's a severely broken creature.
[00:46:30] He's experiencing grief and trauma.
[00:46:33] And that's why he made that choice.
[00:46:36] Well, and going back to that, but he's not going to say that in polite, you know.
[00:46:40] Sure.
[00:46:41] Well, he, maybe he hasn't even come to terms with that fully.
[00:46:45] And to say that out loud would mean that he'd have to now reconcile that himself.
[00:46:50] And I think you're, uh, you know, sort of like the, uh, post-mortem religion experiences is, is, is a, is a good analogy because it's like, I've seen this before where people, you know, maybe they, something happens in their life.
[00:47:05] And they become maybe real disenchanted with, with their, their choices or their religion or the church or whatever it is, but they, they feel pot committed.
[00:47:16] It's like, I could sit here and I could exactly what that's, this is exactly Mark's problem.
[00:47:22] He's now pot committed to severance.
[00:47:25] So it's like, if I come out and I say, well, yeah, I agree with you.
[00:47:29] Well, then that says everything that I've been working on, everything that I've done and everything that I have to keep doing was, you know, I have to change my entire life and I have to accept the fact that I may, that all of this other stuff was wasted.
[00:47:42] And if, and now I actually have more work to do to get out of it.
[00:47:46] Right.
[00:47:46] And he made it, he made a choice.
[00:47:48] Mark made a choice.
[00:47:49] It's, it's irreversible.
[00:47:51] And so the, if you want to avoid cognitive dissonance, you're going to convince yourself with every word you say to anyone else that you made the right choice.
[00:48:05] Yeah.
[00:48:05] Cause what, cause what good would it, like he could sit there and say, look, I totally agree with you.
[00:48:09] You're a hundred percent right.
[00:48:11] And I'm stuck.
[00:48:12] So how, now what?
[00:48:15] And that's, you know, you're not really trying to help.
[00:48:17] You're preventing where we're, you could even make the argument.
[00:48:19] You can be like, well, where were you when I was making this decision?
[00:48:22] Right.
[00:48:23] I mean, who knows?
[00:48:24] Right.
[00:48:24] I mean, there's a whole slew of, of, of things to take from that.
[00:48:28] And I think it's, I think that's where it's becomes really fascinating too, is the, uh, the, just the, he's not really come to terms with it.
[00:48:37] I mean, he, so far, everything we've seen of his outside world tends to involve it being a topic of conversation.
[00:48:45] Right.
[00:48:46] The thing that you're, that you signed up for so that you could just forget about the problems of life has just now created a new set of problems.
[00:48:54] Well, the thing, I mean, and this is what he says during his date, you know, she says, isn't it weird that you've got this whole other life and you can't remember it?
[00:49:01] And he's like, well, for a lot of people, that's the point.
[00:49:03] And the implication there is for me, that was the whole reason I did this.
[00:49:07] Right.
[00:49:08] But I wonder if it, if the side effect here isn't a bigger problem in that he has nothing to distract him.
[00:49:19] He only has the part of his life that is quote unquote, not grieving is a part that he can't remember.
[00:49:26] Right.
[00:49:27] So to his outie self, he's only ever idle when he's grieving.
[00:49:33] Right?
[00:49:33] Right.
[00:49:34] Yeah.
[00:49:34] He, he wakes up.
[00:49:36] Like if you, if he goes in to work crying, he comes out of work.
[00:49:41] Oh, that's right.
[00:49:42] I was just crying about that thing and now I'm thinking about it.
[00:49:44] Mm-hmm.
[00:49:45] That's right.
[00:49:46] Okay.
[00:49:46] So really in his, all he's done is the best for his attempt, for his attempt to try to forget, he's only rewarded his any with that.
[00:49:56] I guess the, I guess the virtue is he gets to sleep more.
[00:50:00] And if you're depressed, you want to just sleep all the time.
[00:50:03] So basically what you've done is you've cut your day in half so that you just don't have to be awake for a lion's share of your day, I guess.
[00:50:15] Yeah, I guess so.
[00:50:18] All right.
[00:50:18] Next section here.
[00:50:20] Later, Irving hallucinates a black liquid covering his desk and has administered a wellness check where counselor Mrs. Casey, Miss Casey recites various facts about Irving's outie.
[00:50:34] Irving forced to react neutrally.
[00:50:38] At the wellness center, Irving also meets Bert who is head of the two-person optics and design department.
[00:50:46] Yeah.
[00:50:47] I love this bit about Irv saying, well, Irv has been caught dozing, I guess.
[00:50:55] Right.
[00:50:56] And he says, I can't help that I was hired older than you.
[00:50:59] I just thought that was really an interesting line.
[00:51:03] Because it really kind of shows you like this guy's life, as far as he knows it, began when he was 45 or something.
[00:51:13] Right.
[00:51:13] Whereas Dylan was hired at 30 or whatever it was.
[00:51:17] I don't know when they were hired.
[00:51:19] But they equate being hired with being born.
[00:51:22] Right?
[00:51:23] Right.
[00:51:24] It's kind of like a kid saying, I didn't ask to be born.
[00:51:27] You know, I can't help how old I was when I was hired.
[00:51:31] Right.
[00:51:32] And this is where we get the whole cleaning the sea theory.
[00:51:39] I love that Dylan is thinking that they've got to kill all those nasty eels that are down there.
[00:51:47] Right.
[00:51:47] Like, that's what we're doing.
[00:51:50] But it also shows what their limitations are.
[00:51:54] Yeah.
[00:51:55] Right?
[00:51:55] What can they think about?
[00:51:57] And what do they have access to with their imagination?
[00:52:02] Yeah.
[00:52:02] That's right.
[00:52:03] Dylan's idea is if things are so bad that we're doing this job down here, then things must be sort of post-apocalyptic up there.
[00:52:13] Like, the seas are rising, and they're trying to figure out how to live in the sea.
[00:52:20] So, yeah, he just imagines that the world above is a hellscape.
[00:52:28] Right.
[00:52:30] This is when we meet Bert for the first time.
[00:52:33] Now, when I first watched this, I had no idea that Christopher Walken was going to be in the show.
[00:52:39] Same.
[00:52:40] So, it was quite a surprise to me to see him.
[00:52:47] And just this idea of Irv bonding over sort of the decor of Lumen.
[00:52:56] The tote bags.
[00:52:58] The tote bags.
[00:52:59] I shall be thinking of nothing else until then.
[00:53:03] Just goes to show you how little stimulus these people get.
[00:53:11] But it's also funny because, like, again, having worked in corporate places, when you hear that, oh, yeah, there's a gift coming.
[00:53:23] You can go, whoa.
[00:53:25] What's that gift going to be?
[00:53:28] Are we getting new jackets?
[00:53:30] Are we getting new jackets?
[00:53:34] I mean, I have a messenger bag that I still use.
[00:53:39] Dylan is not happy with the idea that Bert has been fraternizing or Irv has been fraternizing with Bert.
[00:53:49] Again, to your personality type that you mentioned, a hyper competitive.
[00:53:54] He's outside of our department.
[00:53:56] He must be the enemy.
[00:53:58] Yeah, at a minimum.
[00:53:59] At a minimum, he's a threat to just their way of life.
[00:54:03] Outside, Mark once again meets with Petey, who explains that he has been he has integration sickness from reversing his severance.
[00:54:13] Petey tells Mark of the break room and plays a recording of himself repeatedly reading out loud a stringent apology.
[00:54:23] With Milchick forcing him to repeat the lines.
[00:54:27] So and he's been mapping the floor.
[00:54:29] He's quit his job and now is in hiding, undergone the severance procedure.
[00:54:35] And now he wants to recruit Mark.
[00:54:39] To his cause.
[00:54:40] But what is the cause?
[00:54:41] What's what's the hope?
[00:54:43] Right.
[00:54:44] What's Petey's endgame?
[00:54:46] Yeah.
[00:54:46] So, yeah, that's the question.
[00:54:48] Is Petey this Petey is interested in Mark or is he interested in exposing something else and he's using Mark?
[00:54:54] Or is he just trying because they're genuinely friends, he's trying to get Mark out of a place that's built to psychologically torture you?
[00:55:04] Or is he trying to take down the whole thing?
[00:55:06] Right.
[00:55:06] So that's that's I think the question at this point is, is he trying to?
[00:55:12] Is this is this Petey versus Lumen?
[00:55:15] Is this Petey for Mark?
[00:55:18] And why?
[00:55:19] Yeah.
[00:55:20] Why map out the floor?
[00:55:21] Seems like maybe there are bits of Lumen that are hidden that you need a map to discover.
[00:55:30] We've seen we've we've seen Mark navigate the labyrinth that is Lumen.
[00:55:37] And we know that there are other doors.
[00:55:39] We just learned that there's you know, we learned about another department.
[00:55:45] And so we've seen the building.
[00:55:47] It's very large.
[00:55:49] Yeah.
[00:55:49] And and so there's like, well, well, there's obviously more stuff going on and maybe it's all just experimental.
[00:55:55] But what are they doing?
[00:55:59] And and so the idea is like, well, if you only know how to get to maybe he only knows how to get to his spot because that's all he it's all he needs.
[00:56:08] You know, everybody's just kind of on a need to know.
[00:56:10] Right.
[00:56:10] He knows his little maze that he's that he does every and and if you're going to navigate that, you better know where you're going, because I mean, obviously, if they if they're going to catch you, whether the code detectors are real or they're just observing.
[00:56:24] It's very hard to navigate that place without, you know, you get you better know where you're headed.
[00:56:29] Mm hmm.
[00:56:31] All right.
[00:56:31] Finally, Mark gives Petey shelter in his house as they're as he's taking a shower.
[00:56:36] Petey suffers hallucinations and collapses.
[00:56:40] So this kind of recalls.
[00:56:44] Something that we learned in both episodes in this.
[00:56:47] The idea is that the severance procedure.
[00:56:52] Is spatially dictated.
[00:56:55] That's the phrase that they use.
[00:56:57] Spatially dictated, meaning that if you are in your office environment, you only have office memories.
[00:57:05] Right.
[00:57:06] And this is actually how the human brain functions on a more limited way.
[00:57:11] Like if you were going to visit a, you know, an old house that you hadn't been in for several years, you you would have memory cues.
[00:57:22] These would be spurred by your external environment and you'd have sort of a different mnemonic experience.
[00:57:32] And of course, you would almost immediately integrate those.
[00:57:35] And that's what the severance feature doesn't allow you to do.
[00:57:40] But in this hallucination, he it looks like he's in an office bathroom at the same time that he's in Mark's bathroom showering.
[00:57:50] So it's almost like the reintegration process.
[00:57:55] Has had some sort of damaging effect to the spatial component to memory where he spatially he's he's hallucinating as well.
[00:58:06] Right. Because there's an interesting aspect to where the any part of him because that's the thing.
[00:58:13] So these memory like.
[00:58:15] It brings up questions like, can you now start remembering things that happened when you were inside or did he, you know, since he did the reintegration and he was reintegrated while he was still going to Lumen.
[00:58:27] You know, that had to be new to him.
[00:58:29] Right. Like, you know, because I don't know if there was a melding of memories.
[00:58:33] And I think we see that here where like the any memory is like almost adapting to what's happening.
[00:58:41] It's like he knows he's in a bathroom, but he only knows.
[00:58:44] That's right.
[00:58:45] A Lumen bathroom.
[00:58:46] That's right.
[00:58:46] So he sees.
[00:58:47] So it's like so when it's happening, it's like, OK, he's in two places at once.
[00:58:50] But the memory is like, well, I can only associate this with something I've seen.
[00:58:55] And so there's this overlap.
[00:58:58] And also there's a temporal element where he's he's almost experiencing two different realities at one time.
[00:59:04] Right.
[00:59:05] And to me, it makes me think, OK, maybe they don't have showers in the Lumen bathrooms.
[00:59:11] And so the fact that he's in a bathroom and taking a shower is like cognitive.
[00:59:17] I know cognitive doubling or something.
[00:59:20] Right.
[00:59:20] And like he said, well, this is where running water comes from.
[00:59:25] You know, this is like a large faucet.
[00:59:29] And then the I think that the parallel here is that we have two different hallucinations in this episode, one with Irv and the black tar that causes him to have to go to the wellness check.
[00:59:42] And then we have the PD's, you know, PD's hallucination that ends this.
[00:59:48] And I think that the story that they're trying to tell is that the severance procedure absolutely has cognitive side effects.
[00:59:58] Right.
[00:59:58] Not just for someone who's gone through the process like PD has to reintegrate, but it will actually have hallucinating side effects for Lumen employees that don't undergo.
[01:00:11] And you wonder if any of that has to do with age.
[01:00:14] Oh, interesting.
[01:00:15] Because they're both older.
[01:00:16] Because they're both older.
[01:00:18] So they've they've accumulated more memories.
[01:00:20] Right.
[01:00:20] And they've accumulated more experiences.
[01:00:23] And it's interesting, too, that Irv's black tar, you know, it seems to be the that coincides with him.
[01:00:32] You know, the day before noticing all the black gunk under his fingernails.
[01:00:38] And like, well, I was going to.
[01:00:39] Yeah, let's let's go ahead and move on to our spoiler section.
[01:00:41] So if you have if you are just watching this for the very first time with us and you don't want to hear spoilers and go ahead and sign off now.
[01:00:56] So, yeah.
[01:00:57] So Irv's Irv's in this episode notices black paint under his fingernails.
[01:01:03] And we learn much later that he's using copious amounts of black paint because he is a visual artist.
[01:01:15] Right.
[01:01:18] And I thought that was interesting because this is also the episode where they call out the finger traps.
[01:01:25] Right.
[01:01:26] And so it's almost like Irv is unaware of his traps.
[01:01:32] He's mentally trapped for sure.
[01:01:35] But there's only evidence of the trap in his fingernails.
[01:01:39] Right.
[01:01:39] So there's something I don't know.
[01:01:41] There's some kind of parallel here with the.
[01:01:43] Well, if you want to take that even further.
[01:01:45] Right.
[01:01:45] Like the finger traps are representative.
[01:01:48] There is a trap and the erasers are mostly decorative.
[01:01:52] So your your attempt to erase maybe certain memories, your attempt to erase certain parts of your life.
[01:01:57] Like it's not as effective as you.
[01:01:59] Right.
[01:01:59] Yeah.
[01:01:59] I like that.
[01:02:00] I like that.
[01:02:01] Very good.
[01:02:02] Right.
[01:02:02] Did you notice anything else that can only be mentioned in the spoiler section?
[01:02:07] Well, I mean, obviously the we know we get a better sense of who hell he is.
[01:02:13] Right.
[01:02:14] In relation to the organization.
[01:02:15] So this.
[01:02:16] Yeah.
[01:02:16] This.
[01:02:17] So seeing that seeing that experience now, I think has been really interesting on the rewatch.
[01:02:22] Right.
[01:02:22] Because we know a little bit more because we because.
[01:02:24] And what was interesting the first time you watch this, like there's so much going on.
[01:02:27] There's so much to retain that, like the PD narrative sort of like goes away and like he really becomes just a sort of a jumping off point.
[01:02:39] Right.
[01:02:39] Right.
[01:02:40] Right.
[01:02:40] And in the first, you know, two, three episodes, it's like, like, oh, this is a central figure to this.
[01:02:47] And he is, but kind of just in the beginning.
[01:02:50] And it.
[01:02:50] Yeah.
[01:02:51] You almost forget how important he was when you get to the.
[01:02:53] Right.
[01:02:54] And so.
[01:02:54] And the same thing with Heli.
[01:02:55] Like you like you're trying to figure out, like in this episode, well, what makes her special by the time you get to episode three?
[01:03:01] I think you kind of forgot all that because you're just on to the next thing.
[01:03:04] And that I felt like in these first two episodes, she's the one that I most identify with.
[01:03:09] She's the one who I would want.
[01:03:12] I see myself most.
[01:03:14] I see her reactions to Lumen as the way I would react to Lumen.
[01:03:21] I'd be the kind of guy who would like write a note and leave.
[01:03:25] But by the time you get to the end of the season.
[01:03:29] She's almost the most villainous person.
[01:03:33] Her Audi is the most villainous person that we've met.
[01:03:36] Right.
[01:03:37] So it's weird to think like the Innie is the person that you is like the like the chief protagonist and the Audi is the chief antagonist or something like that.
[01:03:46] Well, and you could also make the argument that if we were to follow Mark out of work, we probably wouldn't think very much.
[01:03:57] Yeah.
[01:03:58] Mark's not a good hang outside of work.