Severance - 0103 - In Perpetuity

[00:00:00] A Music Dance Experience Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? You are listening to a Lorehounds plus Properly Howard production. Today we're covering episode 3 of the first season of Severance. Do please check out TheLorehounds.com to see all of the good programming happening over

[00:00:29] with John and David. Without further ado, here is stand up comic Steve Osburn. So did you watch Severance episode 3? I did. In perpetuity? How are you liking this rewatch? How are you feeling? Uh, it's good. I'm glad I'm doing it for sure.

[00:00:56] Because most of my memories are later episodes. Yeah, you almost forgot how important PD was. Yeah, and it's interesting because I really want to see it all kind of connect again because, yeah, like we talked about it, I always felt like the PD episodes were a whole

[00:01:16] other season before or something. He's sort of a canary in a coal mine. I mean that's kind of how he functions for the story, right? Right. And I just was like fascinated with his map. Like, I don't know if you've, did you look at his map at all?

[00:01:36] So let's just do this now. So his map, it's almost like a child has drawn it. Right. I think it gives, so that's an interesting part of it too, right? At the point that he's making this map, he's reintegrated, right?

[00:01:57] He's making a second map, but then at the end of this episode, Mark finds the map that he was making before he was reintegrated. Is that right or is that because he was going in and out while he was reintegrated? Oh, that might be the case.

[00:02:13] So the question was like, because on one hand I think when I initially saw this, I kind of thought of it as like that was sort of the childlike quality of them. And that might be why the map was drawn that way.

[00:02:24] Well, the other thing is he said... But then now I'm wondering, I know I'm just wondering if it's because his brain is broken. You know? Well, here's the other thing about it. He says that once he's reintegrated, his life is running parallel in a weird way

[00:02:40] because he can remember back to his five-year-old birthday party, but that corresponds to his first day at Lumen. Right. So is this like what a five-year-old would draw? Yeah, I know. Yeah, because I mean it's... He's not well. No.

[00:03:01] I think I'm going on a limb and say that. If you ever want to depict a crazy person on screen bleeding out of the nose with no attempt to wipe it off. Yeah, right. I mean, yeah, because I'm in constant concern that I have like a booger showing.

[00:03:21] Yeah. Whether I feel it or not, I just... I'm like, you know what? It's time to take a little facial inventory. You know, like if I feel something for sure, I'm going to be obsessed with it and then make everybody else obsessed with their nose because I'm...

[00:03:33] For me, it's the nose hair. It's like I just... I'm just some positive I've got a nose hair that's just dying to get out, to see the world. Yeah, so the idea that if I was actively bleeding out of my nose and not doing anything, you

[00:03:47] can pretty much assume what I'm saying. All right, here are the things that are on the map. All right. And we know a few of these already. So O&D, right? The break room we've met. Wellness we've met. The perpetuity wing, which we see in this episode, right?

[00:04:08] Yes. Then there's something called the coil of doom, which is near the perpetuity wing. So coil of doom, any thought? Any thoughts? Sorry about that. Sorry about a coil of doom. I mean, it's a great name for almost anything. Yeah.

[00:04:28] You know, I'm glad it's a roller coaster or a bowel movement. I mean, it's just almost. Then there's this big what looks like maybe a microchip he's drawn on there and it just has mind. Yeah. Yeah. So AI? What are we dealing with here? Right.

[00:04:53] Like, we get revealed this in the perpetuity wing, like this kind of hall of presidents type approach. It does feel, while it's all pre-recorded, we assume, but it also feels artificial intelligency. Right? I mean, it just kind of feels like a howl component. Yeah.

[00:05:16] Maybe Kier uploaded his consciousness to... I mean, there's just the possibilities around you and this with the show. All right. So then he writes, some people might live here. I think this is a reference earlier in the episode to where he's talking about, you know,

[00:05:34] there might be people that just never leave. Right. All right. So the only other thing that he has written on this that I didn't quite get was there's, I think it's kind of scribbled on there, but I think it's MDR. Does that ring any bells for you? MDR.

[00:05:52] Well, that's a macro data refinement. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Very good. All right. Let's go ahead and start with the synopsis here. PD recovers from his slip in the shower and then scores a new robe.

[00:06:08] He experiences more cognitive doubling than he tells Mark that mysterious benefactors have helped him undergo the reintegration procedure. Are you a robe guy? I am. Do you have more than one robe? No, I probably... Well... You have a new robe? No, I have a new robe.

[00:06:31] It's a great robe for now, but it's going to be... I think it's going to be a problem in the summer. Were you a robe guy before COVID? Oh, yeah, I had a robe. I've had a robe for a while, but like I'm known to robe.

[00:06:48] You strike me as a robe guy. I used to be a robe guy. Haven't owned a robe for many a year. Many a year. Really? My son... What changed for you? I might have lost the robe. I don't really... That's just it?

[00:07:00] Yeah, just a family robe and it was like, well, I'm not ready to restart. It's my favorite robe. Nothing's ever going to compare to that robe. My son's a big robe guy. He will wear pajama pants, no t-shirt, and a robe, and he'll just walk around like that.

[00:07:21] Is that just because you got used to that after he was in the hospital from gritty? So hard. Even before, even before he went to the EUR for hitting the gritty, he would wear it.

[00:07:33] He would just wear it out like I was driving home one day and I just saw some guy walking on the road at 10 o'clock at night and I was thinking, that guy's freaking crazy. There's a crazy person on my street. I pulled up and it was my son.

[00:07:50] He was wearing a robe with no t-shirt, 10 o'clock at night. I immediately had one of those moments where I became my dad and I immediately thought, you can't do that. People will think you're crazy. Don't think my dad would be worried about. Yeah, so that's his life. Okay.

[00:08:12] I like that. I like the idea that he's kind of knik-nolty from down on Beverly Hills. He does that a little bit. He's outside with the robe. Do you just wear your robe around the house or do you ever go outside? I don't go to work on it.

[00:08:31] Well, I let the dogs out of my robe. The neighbors get to see the robe. My deck is kind of high so they probably get a taste. I don't go to the mailbox in my robe. Typically. That's the front of your house.

[00:08:52] Well, it's like out down the road. Oh, sure. Sure. I don't want to be mistaken for your son or a pedi. No, of course not. I'll be honest and I think the listeners are begging for more details about the specific

[00:09:10] topic but most of the time if I'm in a robe, that's it. You're done for the day. I mean, I'm saying that's all I wear. Oh, OK. All right. I thought you were like, nope, sorry, can't take out the trash. I can't do anything.

[00:09:25] If the robe is on, it's done. Yeah, it's like my cloak of invisibility just in terms of chores. So that's just for you. It's like either in the above, it's like one step up from being in the buff. Yeah, the robe is protecting the world. I'm glad.

[00:09:46] Because the world is not giving you consent, sir. Exactly. So yeah, I'm just a robe away world. Just a robe away. All right. So this is when we find out that the relativity is messed up with Pedi.

[00:10:01] He got reintegrated but for some reason his five-year-old birthday party is now parallel with his first day at Lumen. So in addition to kind of feeling that all of that doubling and hallucination, he's just his timelines messed up. Yeah. And so how long ahead?

[00:10:22] So the reintegration is, but he's had it for a little bit. I forget exactly. We don't know how soon after or how soon before his dismissal or his, you know, his quitting or whatever, he actually got the procedure done. Mm-hmm. But. Right.

[00:10:39] Yeah, it's hard to really know on that point. Kind of fascinating the two worlds, right? I mean, Mark's any is really shaken up by the absence of Pedi whereas Mark's Audi is very shaken up by the presence of Pedi. That's right.

[00:10:56] And in addition to that, we learned that Mark's Audi is grieving the loss of his wife. Right? Mm-hmm. And what Pedi reveals is he has a certain melancholy when he's in the office as well.

[00:11:13] So to me, that sounds like not severed memory, but kind of repressed memory or something. Like he knows that there's something to be sad about. He just doesn't have a, you know, he doesn't have the specific memory to know why he's melancholy.

[00:11:30] Which makes it, I wanted that also makes him prone to connection. Samor? Well, like he's, you know, he's the one who seems to be the most concerned or focused on having a friend. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:44] And I wonder if that has something to do with that knee, that lack that he comes in with that he doesn't really know what it's about and he doesn't know melancholy really. Sure. But it's just still driving him.

[00:11:56] So he's got a wife shaped hole in his heart and he's trying to fill it with Pedi or whatever. Just trying to cramp Pedi in it, yeah. Interesting. All right, next little bit. Well, Mark is at work.

[00:12:09] His sister Devin and his brother-in-law Rick and deliver a book authored by the latter to his doorstep, which Miss Selvig steals and takes to Lumen to check for hidden messages. As she searches Mark's house, Pedi recognize her as cobell and flees the house.

[00:12:26] I want to talk a little bit about this book, but before I do, my major conundrum from this episode is trying to understand cobell's motives. Right. At one point she's peeking through her window to spy on Mark.

[00:12:45] And as far as we know, no one's around and she kind of says, oh, Mark, are you okay? Right. As if she's really concerned with Mark. Does Mrs. Cobell or Miss Selvig or whatever, does she actually care about Mark?

[00:12:59] Because every other indication is that she views him as a specimen or a dog to be kicked or something. Yeah, well, I think both are true. Right? I mean, that's like there's, because this whole show is about split, right? I mean, it's all about two versions of people.

[00:13:25] And we've seen her, you know, be like she portrays one way, right? Like this sort of atheist in Lumen. But then she has this version of her that's, you know, raised Catholic and she sort of leans on that. And we're not entirely sure which is the act, right?

[00:13:46] I mean, or beyond that, we're not sure like are they both acts? Or are they both elements? And that's when I'm leaning into like they're both acts at this point. I really don't understand what motivates her at all.

[00:13:58] Yeah, so when she's, so in Lumen, she, and we see it pretty blatantly in this episode is like really treats him as like a, you know, as that sort of experimental object. Like I'm going to do this and then see how he reacts and treat him very curtly.

[00:14:19] But then, you know, and that's in line with her character that's in Lumen. And then behind closed doors, if she's still playing this character of, you know, Mrs. Selvig, that person would have that kind of compassion, right?

[00:14:36] But there's nothing that she's seen that we can tell that would make her think that something's wrong with Mark. But she's also watching him all the time.

[00:14:46] So we don't know like there's something about what he's doing that not just watching that breaking into his house and taking his stuff. Right. And so, and so she's troubled by something.

[00:14:58] And, and so you just wonder if there's a if there's a part of her that is like, like, let's, you know, I almost kind of lean towards she might be that other person. She might be the outer version of herself to some degree.

[00:15:13] And then she's she knows her discipline. She knows what she has to do when she's working, but she knows what that is doing to Mark overall because she sees the whole picture of Mark, right? Like she's one of the only people she's back.

[00:15:27] She's the only person that we're aware of in the entire, you know, unless I mean obviously there may be more to Lumen and what kind of observations are happening in the outside world.

[00:15:37] But like as far as we know, she's the only person that sees Mark is Mark doesn't see himself in both worlds. She does. So she sees him kind of in total. So well, she kind of perils PD in that sense because PD just recently gained that ability, right?

[00:15:51] True true. But she sees it from even a different perspective than PD does because PD sees it within the confines of the experiment or whatever it is where she sees. She sees what the effects are happening directly. And she could kind of push those buttons, right?

[00:16:10] So maybe maybe it wasn't so much what she was seeing at that moment, but just in general, she might have been giving sort of a poor mark. Let's talk about Rickens book book here. Can't get enough Ricken. Ricken is such a bananas character. I love this actor.

[00:16:28] I don't know his name, but I've seen him in a few things and I think he's fantastic. The book is called the you you are. And one of the chapter chapter titles is learning to be emotionally nude in front of my wife. And I my my senses.

[00:16:51] You know, I've just seen his and Devin's interactions. My sense is that Devin would like a little bit less emotional nudity. Right. You know, this episode is really something in how humorous it is for an extended period of time and how how dark it becomes and finishes.

[00:17:23] I really like that.

[00:17:25] That's what I mean, it's you know, it's it goes to like we talked about just like the theme of the show and the with the concept really are just so well married together because it is the unsettling of like just two things happening will happen in the same episode.

[00:17:45] Right. And it's both entertaining and funny. And then it's also like really upsetting and it's like it does a good job of disarming to have those types of effects. Yeah, very, very well placed subtle humor in this episode.

[00:18:02] So far we've we have encountered kind of two forms of literature in the show. The first is the Lumen handbook and in the previous episode like Irv said or says something like don't pervert the handbook to me, you know. Right.

[00:18:20] So it's almost like the sacred text, you know, the handbook is sacred text. And it seems like the purpose of the Lumen handbook is to create a kind of a collective identity. You know, here's who we are as Lumen.

[00:18:37] Here's who we are as you know, inheritors of Keir Egan here, you know, who are we as as we exist together in this company. Whereas the self health book is kind of about the individual. It's like the you you are, you know, right.

[00:18:57] That's pretty on it's very individualistic, right. And so it's almost, you know, and then you see Milchik kind of like flipping through the pages and scoffing at the book. And it's almost like that kind of individuality is almost subversive and maybe seen as dangerous. Sure.

[00:19:21] And Milchik's defense, I mean, Rick and did write it. No, I'm with Milchik on this. I look if I'm going to hang out and have beers with someone it's not going to be Rick and it's going to be Milchik every single time.

[00:19:39] So I, you know, clearly he's he's got issues of his own, but it's a little goofy to me because number one, it's kind of over the top bizarre for someone like Irv to view employee handbook as sacred text, right.

[00:19:59] It's also kind of goofy over the top bizarre for something like this book by Rick and to have an effect on anyone. Right. Because it's just well, and I think it and I think that that's what that's what kind of helps with this.

[00:20:15] Like the show is really, it's really does a great job of kind of getting your attention into one thing. Right. Like so, so PD becomes like a real central focus in these few episodes. Right.

[00:20:29] And then we talk about how like on the rewatch we kind of forgot about it. And so it's really like there's a lot of sleight of hand that is helpful during the rewatch for me to go.

[00:20:39] You know, there's a lot of like, like we talked about the dinner party from episode one and how weird it was. And and like both worlds seem bizarre. Yeah.

[00:20:52] And so, you know, and so right out the gate, you have an interesting choice that's made where it's not like there's a normal world. And then there's Lumen. There's like, ah, boy, which one would I rather be? I don't know.

[00:21:07] You know, and obviously we're going through a lot of Mark's lens, but but then, you know, then there's this Rick and character who exists, which is fine. But he doesn't just exist. Like he's, he's married to Mark's very seemingly normal sister.

[00:21:25] And and she seems like not always very impressed with them, but like that she's having a baby with them. You know, so and it's so there doesn't seem to be like any animosity between them. It's just that she's just kind of unimpressed.

[00:21:40] So it sort of brings us to like how, how did that happen? Well, it's one of these things where it's like, yeah, I kind of realized that this guy's a little bit.

[00:21:49] He's a little bit like a child in a lot of ways, but he's so earnest about it that it's kind of attractive. Perhaps right?

[00:21:57] I mean, but that but so it just creates a and then but the idea that he is somebody that would be contributing to society with that type of literature. It's and so it's kind of unclear at this point is like, well, what's his status?

[00:22:14] I gotta look at his actor name. He just like is like because his status makes a difference. Right. Like if he's if he's respected in this field, then this world is weird, like we're doing we may have realized.

[00:22:28] You know, if he's just doing a one off and it's just his own thing. Okay, that's fine. You know, but like so they just creates these little these little questions about what is this world and how big is it?

[00:22:38] Is it the big world or is it a smaller world? And so I mean, you know, the questions if you were coming up about Lumen housing and everything and you go away that is like, is this all an experiment? Like that's kind of the question.

[00:22:53] Yeah, I think that I'm leaning in that direction. I feel like this is the episode. I think where that really starts to hit. And I think it's the first time I watched it. It started to like plant the seed of like, well, wait a minute.

[00:23:05] Is it all Lumen? It's all Lumen all the way. And that's an interesting concept too, because is that what PD thinks? Like when he when PD says there's people that live there all the time. It's like, well, maybe this is yeah, that's right.

[00:23:23] Yeah, maybe that is I consider that Michael Cherness is the actor. He's great. Fantastic. I loved him. I don't know if you ever saw a patriot. Yeah. He was in that. He was in Spider-Man home. Anyway, okay. Next storyline here at the office.

[00:23:54] Helly learns that her resignation request has been sent to her Audi and has been denied Mark towards her various attempts to smuggle messages out to her Audi. This is when we learned that there's bad soap.

[00:24:11] The greener may have to use the bad soap if she writes on her skin. She's just a slave at this point. I mean, she's realized I can't leave and not only am I a slave myself. My Audi is one of the people that has enslaved me. Right.

[00:24:41] This is like some kind of personal hell. I just think, I mean, and I think that's it's a part that gets lost sometimes even by myself. Like because I just love the show and I love examining and trying to think of what's going to go on next.

[00:24:58] It's good to stop every once in a while and just think about how bonkers it is to have the idea that I'm like, I'm miserable. And the reason why I'm miserable is because what I'm doing to myself.

[00:25:10] And I mean, and psychologically there's a lot of ways you can kind of like draw parallels in just in terms of like what people do to not, you know, whether it's lack of self care or living for others or whatever it may be being an abusive relationship.

[00:25:26] Like a lot of times we can be sticking with the job you hate. Right. For years for whatever reason, right? Right because it's either the right thing to do or you just, you know, what else am I going to do? It's too late.

[00:25:41] You know, all those different things like the different choices we make. And in here, it's like it's an explicit way to just say and whose fault is it? Well, it is. It's my fault, but it's not the me that wants to be out.

[00:25:56] It's the me that feels the need to stay. Yeah, that's right.

[00:26:01] And I think if you were going to, if you're really going to press the metaphor, it's like there are a few decisions that I made as a very young man in my early 20s related to career choice that I cannot undo and sent me on a trajectory.

[00:26:19] And my past self absolutely did enslave my older self with those decisions. No, and I think that that's a great point. I mean, I think about it all the time.

[00:26:34] Like I could certainly do something new, but I'm going to have a hard time paying the bills for the things that I have now.

[00:26:42] The whole idea like, like I remember starting comedy late and you know, so many comedian friends are just like this is the trajectory when I go on in order to do it, you kind of have to live a little bit differently.

[00:26:56] And it's like, well, I can do that. You know, I mean, I'm the only way I could do that is if I just, you know, told the family and just hey, we're not going to live here. We're not going to own these things.

[00:27:08] We're not going to eat the same way because daddy's got a dream, right? You know, and it's, it had been different if you start that way and then you get used to that lifestyle.

[00:27:18] And then if you want to raise a family along that, that's, that's so you know what those, you know what the guardrails are. And so yeah, with the job like, you know, I mean, it's a pretty great. I love that it's a workplace environment for this too.

[00:27:33] I mean, because then that critique is just so apt. So the meta commentary here is just it's a little bit too blatant, but once you're in the story, it kind of blends, right? It's not like you're constantly thinking about it.

[00:27:51] Well, and that's I think again, I think goes back to we're talking about the credit that Ben Stiller deserves for being able to balance so much of this. And that's the thing is it's almost impossible to not have the meta commentary.

[00:28:04] I don't know how you could do without it, right? Because the concept and the execution almost have to allow for that. So knowing that you do run the risk of like I roll moments or like, okay, yeah, I get it.

[00:28:20] But he's so adept at moving things along, tweaking characters, adding humor, even just angle choices, music choices to sort of just keep you engrossed in it while that. So the obvious falls in the background, which I think is a real trick that he's pulling on.

[00:28:41] Yeah, really, really good. To help Helly understand why she is working at Lumen, Irving suggests that they show her the office's perpetuity wing. Mark visits Cobel's office to get permission, then Cobel has an odd exchange with the board. So she tosses her mug at him.

[00:29:06] I mean, it's almost like a very apathetic abuser. Are you gonna make me throw this mug at you? Well, and I like the idea of like she's acting as if she has no agency, which almost like she gives him the false sense of power. Yeah, right, right, right.

[00:29:28] You are making me do this. I don't want to throw this mug at you, but you've left me no alternative. It's all kinds of people. It's all kinds of people, which it was really... For a guy who has zero agency in this place by design.

[00:29:42] In addition to that. This is there and treat him like, oh, well, you know, you made me do that. It's such, like it's so abusive. It's very abusive. And then door opened or closed, both. I mean, just...

[00:29:58] Well, and also like again, like these are like there's so many of these moments and like that is it's... I'm gonna go right back to what we're kind of praising Stiller for.

[00:30:07] He does this both scene and it's humorous and it's also unnerving, but it's another example of the split. Like because he... This whole concept of the reintegration, the concept of stuff like, no, you're both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are... Which means if you're both, you're neither.

[00:30:27] That's right, you're living in a paradox. Open door. Which is exactly what's happening to Mark. Yeah. He's living in this paradox. Yeah. She has this interaction with the board which kind of shows that she's kind of a rat in the maze as well.

[00:30:43] Like she presents to Mark as if she's in charge, but in reality there's really no interaction with the board. We do meet Natalie, but she's sort of as stone faced as anyone else. And they seem almost affronted by even the suggestion that reintegration is even possible. Right.

[00:31:11] Yeah, that's an... So that's... Because now we're getting a glimpse on this of what we consider the inside. But it's to me that's going back to what we were talking about with the, you know, is this world big? Is this world small? We see...

[00:31:29] We get a glimpse of a limitation that Cobel has. And even though she's aware of the project and even though we know she's fully aware of the project in both worlds. So she's not severed as far as we can tell of any sort, right?

[00:31:46] I mean, because she's living two lives on purpose. But so you feel like well, she's kind of the big brother, but not really. You know, there's another... Yes. There's at least one layer. At least one layer. At least one layer.

[00:32:02] And then the question is what is her job? Is her job just to monitor Mark and his employees? Is that her entire job? Or is that like just one little aspect of what her job description is? And how many other Cobels are there? Because we don't...

[00:32:23] I mean, obviously we only see a little bit of her, but like we get to see two interactions with the board. And this is about... It's very clear that she needs to get her macro data refinement numbers. They didn't talk about O&D.

[00:32:36] You know, they didn't talk about anything else. So you don't get the sense that... I mean, you get the idea that this is the department she's responsible for. So it was like Milchick only responsible for this too, is he got... There's so many...

[00:32:50] These are the types of things like the more you find out, the more you go, well now I have a lot of other questions. Right. And I think this comes back to one of the earliest questions we asked. And I'll reframe it in this way.

[00:33:00] And that is, are these people important? Like is someone like Mark or someone like Dylan or someone like Irv, are these people important to Lumen? Because you might answer like, well they're cogs in a machine and they're being treated like slaves

[00:33:20] and you can easily take one person out and plug another person in. Or it could be that the entire project is them. They're being observed. They're being tested so that they can roll out this procedure for a billion dollar industry or something like that.

[00:33:43] So is Cobel's job important? Is she doing cleanup that PD's gone? Or is it like if PD gets out, the whole thing is shot? I don't understand how these people are even viewed by the corporation.

[00:34:00] Yeah, I mean it's, you would think that there would be a higher sense of urgency about the PD thing. I mean it feels like they're concerned but not a ton. Right. Yeah, they're tasking her with finding PD. She's at work all day. Right. I don't know.

[00:34:23] There's a lot to answer. Natalie. Okay, so Natalie is sort of the face of the institution, right? So far. Right. And we've also seen her on television. Is that right? Right. Yeah, we just saw her in this episode. Right, yeah.

[00:34:44] So I'm not really sure what more we can say about her at this point except to say that she's sort of like the chief propagandist. But not only that but she clearly has a relationship with the board that Cobel does not.

[00:35:00] She does and the propaganda isn't just for the media. It has to be repeated by all Lumen employees. Like there's no such thing as reintegration. Severance is permanent. Right. We don't even give lip service to this kind of stuff.

[00:35:18] So anyway, another curiosity about, let's talk about the perpetuity wing. Are you a museum guy? Not typically. I love, I mean, I guess it depends on the kind of museum but I'm huge on museums. I love museums. There's a lot of museums that are just horrible.

[00:35:47] So I've got sort of this weird relationship where I love a really good museum and I hate a really bad museum. And this is like the worst kind of bad museum. Because it's not anything that you're actually looking at that's of historic interest.

[00:36:09] You're seeing a replica of these former presidents. It's like a wax museum or something. And you go into this other wing, it's just smiles of people that have been helped by Lumen. This is not connecting you to anything that's real or from the past or anything like that.

[00:36:28] You don't even know why these people are smiling. You're just seeing the mouth wall or whatever. You're just seeing these people smiling and then you go into like this historic house that's been preserved. But it's a replica. The whole thing is a replica.

[00:36:45] So the whole thing about this being presented as a museum, it's totally fake. The whole thing is fake from start to finish. There's nothing in that perpetuity wing that would give you any kind of connection to the past at all. Yeah, it's a tribute.

[00:37:05] Yeah, that's what it is. It's more of a tribute than it is anything else. A tribute to what? You don't know. Right, exactly. I mean, there's some great comedy that leads up to this whole journey.

[00:37:19] The interactions beforehand with Irv and Dylan regarding how much money you can make at a muscle show. And how the money is divided. It's so funny. It's like children. They are absolutely children.

[00:37:43] It's great because there's no, the emphasis isn't your audience probably not doing muscle shows because you don't look like you do muscle shows. If he did muscle shows, why would he have this job? Right, for sure. Because he'd be making so much money on muscle shows.

[00:38:02] And then the argument evolves into like what's the breakdown of the different payouts at the muscle show? Right. Would you win just for Lats? Would you win for more? It's a piecemeal and then obviously because biceps would get more and I think Lats would get more than myself.

[00:38:20] Lats would be more desirable. It's so funny. It's really great. I had to rewind it a couple of times just to savor it. So, Irv's feeling about sort of the outside world. It's almost like for Irv everything a sacred or it's not.

[00:38:43] If it's not sacred, it's not worth talking about. Right. Then he'll be dragged into a conversation like that about muscle shows. You know what I think? Okay. So here's what I was trying to say with this. How many people do these people know?

[00:39:01] Like if you're from Irv's perspective or you're from Dylan's perspective, how many people do you actually know? Right. I mean... You know what? Like half a dozen people in the world? If that.

[00:39:15] So it's like, it's bizarre to me that he like, like if I only knew five people and I met someone else on the hallway that I didn't know very well, I would be kind of curious. Like oh, there's more people.

[00:39:30] Unless you're Dylan, you just assume that like if they're O&D. You can't trust him because O&D orchestrated a coup. It's in some distant past. Well, that's the other thing is like where did he get this from? Like somebody had to pass that on, right?

[00:39:46] Someone's getting information but they're not the same information. Right. There's also kind of like internal propaganda, you know, that's maybe not in the handbook. Right. So that was fantastic. I love his, he calls it the mouth wall and Irv offended that he called it the mouth wall.

[00:40:08] Called it the mouth wall. They got rid of the one I really like. The chick I like or something. Alright, so I have a question about this.

[00:40:18] So they go into this museum and there's a wax portion and they're like, alright, here are all the different eagans throughout the years. Then Irv says, but then if you go past this point, it's pure cure.

[00:40:31] So almost have to say that like, okay, these other eagans are kind of important, but now we're finally getting to the heart of the end of the cult or personality or something. Yeah, it's almost like you're going into the brain.

[00:40:46] Like you're moving through a body and then the all cures like the brain. Well, and that would have some kind of connection to the map we were talking about. The mind, there might be a mind to the building or something. Very interesting.

[00:41:05] I like that there's a bingo game. There's sort of like a meta game to go if you're going to go to the perpetuity way. Well, and that is such an office workplace type of thing. It's so perfect. They've got to hide it from Irv.

[00:41:21] Yeah, we see a couple of things that are very officey. And I think that's really key to keeping this sort of world alive. And it's the like you've got, you have these team building exercises, right? The egg drop team building.

[00:41:35] And it's a team of two, which I think is fascinating. Build a team for those two people. Right. Okay, so we saw on the map that there was a wing specifically for team building, right? So is that what happens there? You do the egg, the egg talks.

[00:41:52] You do the, yeah. So what do you say? Like your eggs are the eggs suck or you go terrible. Just like it derives the eggs. All right. After attempting another escape, Haley is brought to the break room where Milchik forces her to recite an apologetic passage repeatedly.

[00:42:16] So why do if you're Haley, why even say it once? I feel like at this point, maybe she's understanding that there's a threat level there. Like there's, it's a pretty unsettling environment. And I mean, you know that there's bad soap. Just, just what else? What else is bad?

[00:42:41] Just the mention of bad soap does its job. So, and then they've got her connected to some kind of lie detector device. And it's like a, it's like almost beyond that's almost like a sincerity detector. Right. Yeah. It's a sincerity detector. And I don't know.

[00:43:04] I mean, I'm just, she's going through this confessional basically repeating this thing over and over. And I think it, you know, the whole thing is meant to break you down psychologically, I think. But I'm thinking, if that's me, why even say it once?

[00:43:23] You know, I want to just kind of fold your arms. I'm not sure why she plays along. Yeah. And it does make you wonder what would, what would the punishment have been? Yeah. Yeah. Good question. Beyond that, right?

[00:43:40] And I don't know, there'd be a part of me that'd be like, well, this is very weird and this is very upsetting. Is there a worse thing? Do I, do I want to see? Oh, and here's the other thing.

[00:43:49] At one point, Mark says, look, the code detector in the elevator can sense things that are inside your body as well. And it's Milchak's job to get it out. Do you think that there's an actual code detector?

[00:44:06] Because my feeling is that this is just kind of like the kind of thing that they use so that people don't try to bring codes out.

[00:44:16] If the assumption is that it, that last time that the elevator flipped out because she had a note was because of the code detector. Well, we also knew that people knew that she had something. Exactly. So it could have easily been activated another way. Yeah, it's unclear, right?

[00:44:34] And but I mean, but that's just the, so that's an interesting thing too. Like for us, we might say that doesn't seem plausible, but if you were born in that place essentially.

[00:44:45] The technology continues to baffle me because this is a society, I suppose, that has mastered neuroscience in a way that we have not, right? Right. And yet when they're going through the confessional, they're using these old timey devices. They're using like a cassette player. Yeah.

[00:45:06] Like their computers look like they're from the early 80s. So there's two different levels of technology in addition to there being two different levels of a lot of things in this show. Right. Yeah. And so I guess you can furnish it however you choose.

[00:45:23] So it does, it does bring up like that feels like a bit of a clue that says whatever it is they're actually doing does not require the type of technology that they're capable of. Like it almost feels like they're given toys. Yeah. That's kind of it.

[00:45:46] It's like it's like the Fisher price version of all this stuff. Because it's like they're just collecting these numbers somehow. And it's like, it doesn't mean whatever they're doing doesn't require anything advanced. Just really just a keyboard. That's kind of that's in it. So it is interesting.

[00:46:09] So it does sort of bring up the we know that, you know, even if this is not our world, we know that this world has some pretty advanced technology. Yeah, like finger traps. Yes.

[00:46:24] Yeah, I mean like it's it's because we've seen because the operation we saw the operation that looked pretty pretty advanced. So we know that that exists. And it's a world with like they've got this technology that's even suggestive of some kind of higher AI or something like that.

[00:46:48] But they're really worried about this self help book. This self help book may might tear it all down somehow. All right, so in the process of replacing the office photos, Mark discovers PD's map. I think we've talked about the map a bit.

[00:47:07] Do you want to say anything more about that? I think we're good on the one. Clever way to send something to Mark by PD. You know, you know, you know its policy to change the photos. There's not many places you can actually hide anything. Right.

[00:47:27] So he finds a pretty clever way to get that to Mark. After a shift, Mark follows ambulance traffic to the convenience store and witnesses PD being carried away by paramedics after his breathing stops.

[00:47:44] Mark rushes home to remove to remove evidence of PD stay but is interrupted when PD's abandoned cell phone rings. So you said something earlier that I thought was interesting.

[00:47:56] You said that Hellie is kind of coming to the realization that she might be in more danger than she is suspected earlier. I feel like that's what this episode kind of does. By the end of this, Mark seems to finally realize that he might be in danger.

[00:48:16] When he sees that thing happen to PD, he thinks maybe PD was on to something here. Right.

[00:48:28] And I mean, I guess there's something, if you're looking from any Mark's perspective, Hellie's determined effort to leave an inability to do so has to kind of give you some kind of pause, I would imagine. Right.

[00:48:45] Because it's, even if you've gotten yourself used to it, even if you've convinced yourself for whatever reason that this is just his life and this is for the greater good or at least for my out he's greater good.

[00:48:57] Constantly having to say something over and over again to somebody sort of forces you to think about it. Right.

[00:49:04] And he's having to constantly warn her about all these things and like all these things maybe in and of themselves are troubling, but when you have to, when you're like day after day, having to recite all the things that could go wrong and that could be punishment.

[00:49:24] And there might be a point where it is like, jeez, where do I work? You know, you get to a point where you're like, I had it. I just referred to bad soap. I referred to extracting codes out of somebody's body.

[00:49:36] You know, I see this person who's willing to do whatever it takes to get out of here. That would sort of like at some point go like, well, do should I get out of here? Should I get out of here?

[00:49:55] Anything more about this before we jump into spoilers? I think we'd cover. Okay, so shut this off if you don't want spoilers. A couple things that I just noticed in this episode. So this idea that cobell cobell's final motivations, which kind of baffled me this episode.

[00:50:20] Later on we learned that cobell gets fired and she tried. She's like frantically tries to help mark in some way. Right. So it seems like the put on or the bigger act is that she is sort of playing the part of an overbearing abusive boss at work. Right.

[00:50:49] In reality, she and mark have a lot more in common than she and the board have in common. Yeah. And you know, and that sort of brings up like the whole how does one get there? Right. What's her backstory? And has she ever been severed?

[00:51:08] Right. Well, that's the other part, right? Like is there a post-severance or is this, you just don't know, right? Because if this whole town is a bubble where everyone's kind of playing a part, maybe all of the town folk are on some level severed.

[00:51:24] Right. Like maybe there's a third version. Yeah. Because that's the thing is when you get to the end of this series, you're like, well, what in the world is going to happen now? You know? And like how do you do it? How do you get out of this?

[00:51:47] And it's like, is there a switch to flip? Is it can you resever? Can you like all those things kind of come to mind? And it's like, it's and that's what's so crazy about the show.

[00:52:01] Like I said, like all of a sudden we'll kind of forget about PD, like PD is an afterthought when you realize what you needed from PD to get to where you're at.

[00:52:08] But then it almost feels like the whole season will kind of do that because now I'm like, well, what happens next in this sort of parallel?

[00:52:17] Options sort of makes you forget about some of the other stuff that we have all these questions for that are not going to be answered. So it's just, it's a lot and I'm excited for it.

[00:52:29] But at the same time, it's like, it's amazing how you just as this as these layers get on, you know, feel back. You're on to the next one. You're on to the next one.

[00:52:40] So this rewatch is really fun in that regard because it's like, wow, there's a lot. There's so much to keep track of. Okay. So the I am and that it never becomes overburdened with itself is the thing that just shocks me.

[00:52:53] Well, and it's, yeah, yeah, it's it's both it's both really dark and really funny. That's that's what's going to pull off. All right. Let me just throw a few actors names out at you. This is on the IMDP IMDB page.

[00:53:09] And I'm assuming that several of these are for season two. Wendell and Christie, she was Brienne on Game of Thrones. Alia, a shot cat you might remember from Arrested Development. George Michaels. Yeah, so he's George. She's George Michael's cousin or whatever that he falls in love.

[00:53:31] Merritt Weaver, John Noble. John Noble you probably seen from a lot of things, but he was he was Denethor in Lord of the Rings. Bobby Benson have not seen him around, but Bob Balaban is and I was the fray. So interesting additions for season two.

[00:54:01] Looking forward to that. I just saw something as I was scrolling through the IMDB page is that one of the trivia things is computer terminals used by the macro data refinement team have no escape key. Maybe nod to the idea that they is perfect. It's perfect.

[00:54:18] That's pretty great. Well, in two respects, it means that you can't ever leave the software. The software is the whole job. You don't have any administrative autonomy, right? But then literally you can't escape as well. Right. Great Dylan episode.

[00:54:41] Yeah, I mean the muscle show thing I just think is just. It's really he said something like my lats look embarrassingly good. Yes. This is so amazing that you might be embarrassed by it. Oh goodness. Such a great thing.

[00:55:07] Again, this is not a guy like it's a guy we want to watch for sure. You know what I mean?