Severance - 0105 - The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design

[00:00:00] A Music Dance Experience Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? You are listening to A Lorehounds Plus Properly Howard Production. Today, Steve and I are covering Episode 5 of the first season. Make sure that you check out all of the fine programming happening over at The Lorehounds,

[00:00:28] TheLorehounds.com. Here becoming a Patreon member. Without further ado, here is Stand Up Comic Steve Osburn. Steve, I thought that in order to birth this episode, we should each tell a purging secret. Do you want to tell me a secret?

[00:00:55] I just love when the doula is walking out and he's crying over her. I give him some privacy. That show is so weird. This is one of the weirdest episodes. It's amazing how, like I think we've talked about this before, it's like, okay here

[00:01:19] are some answers or some breadcrumbs and here's a whole lot more questions. Yeah, yeah. I've got a lot to say about the birthing retreat. Oh man. Oh man. It just, Rickin continues to tickle me to no end. Yeah, no doubt.

[00:01:43] The parallel with him kind of processing the wound of the lost advance copy of his book at the same time as Rick is having a contraction. Oh man, I just thought that was so wonderful. Have we talked about the opening sequence for this show?

[00:02:08] No, no, I don't think we have the... Because I know you're an opening sequence guy. I am an opening sequence guy. I think it's playing with this Uncanny Valley problem. Are you familiar with this? No. Oh okay.

[00:02:23] The Uncanny Valley is sort of, it encompasses a lot of different perceptual problems and it gets used most often for robots. So if a robot looks like a tin can, you're not threatened by it or if it looks like commander data, you're not threatened by it.

[00:02:45] But there's this weird cusp where it looks a little bit like Tom Hanks in Polar Express. Gotcha, yeah. And it's mostly with the eyes people have found. If the robot does not look fully human, it will freak you out and people will feel repulsion to it.

[00:03:11] And of course this, like I just mentioned, has problems with animation and whatnot. And a lot of research done on where the repulsion level is. And I kind of feel like the animation in this opening sequence is playing with Uncanny Valley a little bit.

[00:03:31] Okay, yeah, that could work with that. I think it's purposely done, given the tone of the show. I think it's purposely done in order to kind of draw that sense of like this doesn't feel quite right. Right, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:03:46] So I guess here's the question. When you watch it, do you feel like, how do you feel about it? Feel any kind of ickiness when you're watching it? Yeah, it's unsettling. I mean, the music does a lot for that.

[00:03:58] And I think it's the movements, you know, because it feels, it's the idea that I know that they could make this look more real. And they're opting not to. So they have found, like they found this line where it's like, well, that looks a lot

[00:04:16] like computer rendering of Adam Scott. Man, but it also kind of looks like one of those inflatable like bone guys at a car. I was going to say, like 1% claimation. Yeah. Just a little bit off.

[00:04:33] While that we are of an age where we've got to see the height of clayvation and we're going to see the height of computer generated deep fakes and stuff. I'm not ready for that. I am certainly not ready for that.

[00:04:47] I'm ready for just just give me like deep fakes of the California raisins. And I'm good. That's what you want? Yeah. OK, this episode is called the grim barbarity of optics and design. And we get the conclusion or the outcome of Hell, you suicide attempt.

[00:05:07] And it kind of picks up right where it left off. It's that elevator notion. And you wonder how many different things that you can do with it. It's like it's like you're seeing a Twilight Zone episode where

[00:05:21] the elevator is the is sort of the hinge of the episode. And you've seen all the different ways that it can be used to freak you out. Mm hmm. So in this episode, we see the suicide attempt to go wrong.

[00:05:35] And you know, how he says later that what I want is for her to realize that she's going to die and I did it. Right. That's what she wants. And that's she's she figured out how to use the elevator for that effect.

[00:05:51] And it just it's it's baffling to me. I mean, I would have never anticipated how many uses that you could do for that elevator. And then later on, Dylan says, you're probably drunk. What did you like when you walked in? All of the possibilities of this this elevator.

[00:06:09] And I mean, it really does have that Twilight Zone feeling like let's take a very simple idea, this elevator that changes your memory and let's unravel this to see how far we can take it. Yeah, not for sure.

[00:06:25] We really get to see the fact they really emphasize the elevator experience with Michael or Mark because we see him twice, obviously. We see him in and out and they it's that really subtle, I'm assuming just like an aperture change on on the camera.

[00:06:47] A lens zoom issue or something, which is really something because I love what it does is that you go, he you're like, he doesn't look any different, but something just happened. And I like that. And I think it's such a really great way to

[00:07:02] just to get us through that moment because you're like the question is what happens and they're so well, that happens and nothing happens at the same time. Right. And it's just he he activates or deactivates every one of them.

[00:07:17] And it's a really smart move to only use that effect in the elevator because I feel like maybe a less experienced director might like figure out, OK, let's figure out how to use this for something else. Right.

[00:07:35] But in order to tell the story that they want to tell, they have to be pretty consistent with that particular camera effect. Right. And I think also, too, which makes it even better is because we're constantly asking now, I think after this many episodes,

[00:07:50] like, well, what is real? What's the real world is there? You know, and. And so there's not an obvious way to look at him. Right. Like he is not like, oh, well, when they go through this, this this part of them changes because it's like, oh, it's

[00:08:07] he is exactly the same as when he went in and came out. You can't be looking for clues to be like, well, maybe this person is severed and or maybe, you know, maybe they're all severed because there's there isn't a clear comparison.

[00:08:24] So Helle suicide attempt is stopped by Mark and Grainer. Mark leaves via elevator and returns to find Cobel blaming him for Helle's attempt. Mark sneaks Rickens book to the bathroom and reads it. Grainer seems more concerned about marketing than the elevator than than saving Helle's life.

[00:08:48] Am I gathering the right thing from that scene? That's what I took out of it. It could have been it could have been a both situation, right? I got to get over there. But it's like, it's more of a I got to get this out of there.

[00:09:00] The less drama that that is is, I think, witnessed in in Lumen, probably the better. It helps control their response and like, and we see this, you know, play out and we get into the other stories that they are

[00:09:16] trying to manipulate and control the folks with, you know, kind of, you know, with rumor and that. And so but as soon as something like they have to be in control. So this is something that's out of their control. So then it's like now now there's a variable

[00:09:31] that they have to now deal with. And that's going to be Mark's reaction to, you know, a death and mark of all of them is is the one that's the most sensitive in this regard because he's lost

[00:09:44] P.D. as a co-worker, which is a form of death to some degree without, you know, because he doesn't understand. So he's still kind of grieving that. So then to come face to face with, you know, an actual loss. Yeah.

[00:09:57] And I think that there's also a certain plausible deniability. Like if he forces Mark into the elevator, they can decide what story they want to tell him when he comes back down or comes back up or whatever. They could say, yeah, you know, it was an attempt.

[00:10:12] She survived and we decided to grant her resignation. And they could they could say that whether she's alive or dead. Right? Right, for sure. Because at that point, I don't think that they know, but it sort of allows them more mobility in the kinds of propaganda

[00:10:31] they want to put out there. Right. Graynor is an interesting, again, it's the whole cobell problem. I'm not sure what to do with Graynor because he's clearly working for her. And yet I can't really tell what cobells and game is. So it's hard to know. Yeah.

[00:10:51] And this is the. Yes, I think this is the episode where we see that cobell is a little more rogue than we realize. Yeah. But so that this is the one thing that kind of confirms because we were asking ourselves, like, is she operating on behalf

[00:11:03] of the board, is she operating as part of her normal function? And she is, you know, so it does bring up the OK, well, maybe this outer Miss Selvig is maybe she's off script. Like we're not exactly sure.

[00:11:16] And so I think this is one of those where we know she's watching. She's kind of been she's been challenged essentially twice to subdegree right by other people or at least the appearance of challenges with Milchek and she just kind of is like this is

[00:11:32] they don't need to know, right? Yeah. So we do. We are getting a sense that something that she's doing is is on her own. Graders confirms that PD's chip was fully integrated. And I'm taking that to mean like they undid the severance.

[00:11:50] And the chip somehow tells that story, right? Right. And then he says we should celebrate. Right. And then I wonder. Why is integration full? Good news if if full integration is good news. Then why is the board denying that it's possible?

[00:12:14] So is it good news for Cobel, but not the board or is there is there some level of. Descension, you know, is Cobel trying to like use this position to work against the board in some way? Yeah, that's confusing.

[00:12:31] And then it's also because it also the question I brought up in my mind was like, well, maybe the fact that it can happen is good news for everybody. That's if in case they're severed or there's some degree of

[00:12:43] severance that they're dealing with is that like, OK, we you know, if you have any kind of regrets about your decision to know that it's reversible might be helpful or it could also be a. Well, that's good. Then maybe he.

[00:13:03] You know, maybe he maybe they think he wasn't able to tell anybody about the severance. I don't know. It's it is an there's a lot of because it but it was an odd thing because you would assume that it would be like bad news.

[00:13:15] The fact that it was good news, like you said, is that good news just. But he so this is the other part. It's like so cobell or like, oh, we kind of feel like maybe she's going off script.

[00:13:24] But for him to say good news to her means that she he would know what she's why that would be good news to her and he would have to be in agreement. So it feels it feels like it feels like it goes higher than just her.

[00:13:37] And I guess the way you could read that is she said that he was that he had gone through a reversal severance reversal procedure that the board said that's impossible and now she has proof. Right.

[00:13:51] And so now I maybe maybe it's sort of like you get to one up the board. You should celebrate. But for some reason, I just don't feel like that's quite it. Right. All right. Well, anyway, I thought that was noteworthy. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[00:14:05] That that's what that was my big takeaway on that was like this. This is whatever's on that chip. They backed it up. So is it not a secret? Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Physical evidence. This the shift in this.

[00:14:18] Right. So you go from this really what I think is dramatically arresting, dramatically compelling storyline. I totally believe that hell he wants to commit suicide. I saw the attempt. I think she narrowly missed killing herself. And I'm feeling all that.

[00:14:40] And about 60 seconds later, I'm just laughing my guts out at these lines from Rick and self-health book. And I'm just this show really walks that tight rope. I mean, from I mean, the whole thing is sort of dark comedy, but it goes from like hard sci-fi to

[00:15:04] like almost these Jack handy lines from the ball. Oh, I know. Yeah. The Jack handy one. Oh, my gosh. I had to rewind them several times just because I just so tickled by him. One of them was I was not wrong.

[00:15:19] Yeah, it was not me that was wrong, but literature itself. Yeah, unbelievable. Literature itself was. Literature was wrong. I love the bull and lies as bullies on the robot. Bullies are nothing but bull and lies. Yeah. And then it's like man is, you know,

[00:15:43] separates man from machine and man could think for himself and machines are made of metal and a man is made of skin. One of the ones that just got me real good was a man with rotting toes cannot skip. Oh, my gosh.

[00:16:03] I'm thinking like who's skipping these days? Like, right. Yeah, that's the first thing. Like of all the things like, I mean, but then you think about Rick and I'm like, oh, I bet you I bet you there are days where he's just like, I'm just going to skip.

[00:16:16] I was thinking like maybe it's one of those things where it's like you don't really think about skipping. You don't really want to skip. But once your toes start rotting, that's the thing that you miss because that's the moment you're just like, well, there's another option.

[00:16:29] Just all the all those years I could have been skipping to work. Well, yeah, when you realize how many opportunities you have to skip and you just and you skipped it. Well, yeah. And it's like this is we talked about this before too, which is

[00:16:46] the whole idea that like drivel compared to nothing is genius. Right? It's it's so wonderful. It's so wonderful. And yet really strange, really strange. Yeah, because it's like you want you usually want your characters to have some level of intelligence, right?

[00:17:09] Right. Especially if it's a mystery show, you want to believe that these are competent people that are trying to solve the mystery. Well, and so it's hard to think that any intelligent person would find this Rick and dribble interesting.

[00:17:26] Well, but I think that that's to me that goes back to some maybe some of the critiques on on religion and why this is so effective is like, you know, I find myself, you know, kind of doing the eye roll anytime they refer to one of like here's,

[00:17:41] you know, great platitudes or whatever it might be. And it's one of those things where it's like, but it's held in such regard by Lumen or at least it's presented to be held in such high regard and herb buys into it and all that.

[00:17:55] So then you have this other thing is like, well, how is this any, you know, to some degree, you know, just because it's it's a little more goofy. It's maybe no less, you know, it's probably just as profound.

[00:18:09] Right. I mean, it's it's but it's presented in a way that that where we know the source and so we get a chance to look at it and go, yeah, this is this is ridiculous.

[00:18:17] But that's sort of how a lot of these, you know, like a lot of whatever the religion or cultic cults, you know, guidelines. If you read them out loud and come on, who's going to buy this? It's like, you get conditioned to it.

[00:18:31] And one of the things too, I think it's it's interesting is that the words are nonsense in many ways, but it's causing a stir in Mark to be more individualistic and and that causes. Right. So so it plants this seed of rebellion that

[00:18:55] heli then immediately is is now more interested in in Mark's help because instead of him trying to help for the good of Lumen, there's there's a certain, you know, there's a certain counter to this this whole approach to Lumen. And now he's he's got them.

[00:19:14] He's working on a map and and he's interested in breaking a little bit of rules. And and suddenly she's like, OK, well, then now I maybe I can trust you because I can't like I can't be a part of this company. She'll type that. Yeah.

[00:19:27] I mean, what just happened at the beginning of this episode? He gets blamed for her suicide attempt. Like. Like in what world is this appropriate? And what world in what world do you think? Well, that was the right managerial response to what just happened.

[00:19:48] It really only works if this guy is completely institutionalized, right? Right. And I think at that moment when they get up and leave the room, I think that there's kind of a look of resolve on a space like. All right.

[00:20:01] Sort of I see in the cracks in the system finally. Yeah. And if you're reading something that's telling you to like think for yourself, industry is a problem, bump up, up, up, up, up. And then now you're like looking at that.

[00:20:12] And then now you're like, oh, yeah, the veil has been lifted to some degree, right? And. And I mean, how often do people do that? And I know I've done that growing up in the church is where I go, yeah, no,

[00:20:24] I can take this, you know, ancient scripture and apply it to my situation in a way that's actually more beneficial for me. And it almost justifies or at least validates my feelings, assuming that it can be overlaid like that, right?

[00:20:42] And so you could kind of see that happening here where he's like, yeah, I too am under, you know, forget the whole. Metal and skin discussion that for some reason needs to be put in there. But. But, you know, yeah, I could think for myself, you know, and.

[00:20:57] All right. Next next storyline here at the birthing retreat campus, Devon breathes through contractions and Rick and deals with the loss of the advanced copy of his book. Then Mark and Rick and hang at hang the kelp. Well, that's a cool. That's a cool.

[00:21:15] Then Mark and Rick and hang the kelp while Devon gets coffee from a rich woman. Mark sits by the lake until the babies arrive. I've got a lot of feelings with this birth retreat center. Both your children in the hospital, birth in a hospital. Yeah. All right.

[00:21:33] So both of my kids were birthed in a birthing center, which is you know, supposed to be more homey, you know, midwives and doulas. You know, within. Which is warlocks, which is warlocks incense crystals. Shaman. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Right. For some reason, a wiener dog.

[00:21:59] There's no evidence that I was just bad for the fetus. None none that I've ever believed anyway. So, you know, sort of a hippie-ish approach to birth by one perspective, and that kind of fits with Rickens personality. Right? Right.

[00:22:21] And yet, you know, the other way to look at it in the way is with it, my wife and I look at it is that it's actually the hospital setting that is a bit more unnatural if you think about the history of birthing. Right? Sure.

[00:22:33] This almost this lodge or whatever, it almost takes the idea to an extreme because where, you know, the birth birthing center where we were at, it was like a literally a four minute drive to the hospital. So if you need the hospital, if you need,

[00:22:52] you know, you need special attention, it's available to you. But this yeah, she's birthing her baby on a tightrope, but there's a very good net underneath called the hospital. There you go. This place is out in the middle of nowhere.

[00:23:05] It seems, I don't know, maybe there's a hospital right around the corner. But it's almost taking this particular idea into the wilderness. Right. Right. Which you could, you know, by my by the rationale that my wife and I believe maybe that's even more natural, right?

[00:23:24] So under the woods and have a baby. That's the tale as old as time. Don't come back till you got a baby. That's interesting to me that that is the choice. See, I think it and it's interesting that we talk about the natural

[00:23:41] aspect of it returning to more traditional and, you know, maybe historically traditional. But I would suggest and I think we see it in this particular episode. The irony is that it's also a reflection of privilege. That's right. Right. So so if you're in a hospital, I mean,

[00:23:57] America is a little different than other places in the world. I get it. But at the same time, you could through, you know, Medi-Cal or, you know, even if you have just an OK job that provides the health benefits,

[00:24:14] you can you can be maybe less well to do, but still be able to experience the hospital experience. Right. Whereas if you do want to go to a more natural birthing center, and it's even talked about in this particular episode specifically, I mean, they had to pay something.

[00:24:28] It was more modest than the other option. But it suggests that there was still a price to be paid. And so it is it is also a reflection of a privilege as well as it is maybe a prioritization of a more natural experience.

[00:24:47] All right. I like that a lot. I don't understand the rich woman's deal. I think right of all the mysteries of this show, it kind of feels like I don't see how that connects. I'm curious to see how they connect it.

[00:25:01] Yeah. That whole exchange with the rich lady and the coffee. I I'm just sitting here scratching my head. It's a weird one. And then also we always see that and we literally just saw the the Devon rick and dynamic, which makes Heather go, why?

[00:25:20] Why are they together? Right. Well, I have a theory about this, but she seems so like level headed. And but then she goes to this, you know, it was a bold move just to ask for the coffee, right? I think. Yeah.

[00:25:30] Yeah. Me too. So that kind of that kind of struck me. And then then she's like reluctantly lets her in, which I kind of feel like, oh, like there's something kind of off about this person, but at the same time, like, I don't know

[00:25:42] if I just want some just because we're pregnant. It was going to totally. Yeah. Like I was thinking Devon seems like the only normal person in this whole show. Right. And yet she's like troubling a stranger through a watch window for coffee. Right. Like just because we're pregnant.

[00:26:00] So, you know, maybe maybe that was what she was seeing was like, hey, look, we're all in this together. We're in the same place, even though you might be in a better spot. We're both going through this like this is if anyone would understand my plight,

[00:26:13] it would be this person. So that's kind of what I got. But it was also it was a bit forward. And then when she just says, are you rich? Like like all of a sudden I'm like, OK, maybe now I know why you and Rick can be together.

[00:26:23] There's a certain from the other. This other woman's perspective, it's like I came out into the middle of nowhere to escape. And now I got to deal with you complete stranger asking me for coffee through my window. I let you in and you ask me if I'm rich.

[00:26:40] Like that seems so I don't. I mean, that that's that's a little goofy. But I like is that is that it gives it does challenge our our grounding Devon as sort of the this is the person that we can always go to

[00:26:57] or like this is the representation of normalcy. Not that you can't be a little quirky, but that was like those are a couple of odd moves. OK, so to me, this is kind of interesting because I think there's

[00:27:12] a parallel between this and the the Goat Room, which we meet later in the episode. Sure. OK, it's almost like a swapping of settings. It's like so you would normally associate at least the Western mind would normally associate the child being born in a sterile environment. Right.

[00:27:31] And goats should be out in the wilderness. Yeah, we're on a farm or something. Yeah. And they swap it. All right. Now that you're birthing almost in a wilderness, lodgey setting. And these goats are in this weird sterile office setting

[00:27:52] and the guy who's feeding them is in like a three piece suit. Right. Yeah. So it's almost you're taking these things and swapping them out. And I think that there's also an interesting thing about maybe Mark's psychosis, like he's not ready to be totally awakened yet

[00:28:09] or birth because he experiences Devon only when she's not ready to give birth. Right. He only experiences her in her contractions, which are about 20 minutes apart. So she's not quite ready to give birth. And then when he walks into the goat room,

[00:28:29] the weird guy in the suit who's using a bottle to feed these goat babies says they're not ready. They're not ready. Leave. So you can't take them. Yeah. Right. Right. And so I think that there's something about Mark

[00:28:43] having dual experiences in these weird parallel tracks of his life. He's he's kind of on the cusp. He's almost ready to be awakened, not quite ready to be awakened yet. Something like that's going on. Right. Yeah. I mean, I got that.

[00:29:00] I think that that's a good that's a good parallel because there is I mean, like when the goats super throw you off, right? I mean, I remember the first time I saw this and hearing that the goat bleeds, you're like, I was like, is that a child?

[00:29:16] And like, that's when the show is like taking a creepy turn and then doing it, you know, you've got a whole birth experience going on. So the idea of, you know, a baby crying is very appropriate. And then there's goats and you're just like, well, OK,

[00:29:37] I don't know about the goat department and so. So it's one of these I think these guys and these guys cruise around, you know, they have so we've seen we now know that they do go get supplies. Yeah. And they will walk by the conference room.

[00:29:54] So there is other I mean, but that's a noise that obviously Mark never heard before. They've never witnessed this before. And I felt like this is the this is the weirdest thing about the show so far. And it's been a pretty weird show.

[00:30:09] Yeah. And Helly's suggestion is maybe we're killing goats. Maybe the goats are the numbers. We decide, yeah, right, right. Dying which which don't. Which I mean, given the amount of explanations for what the numbers are so far, it's as plausible as anything. Right. Sure.

[00:30:28] It's more plausible than anything Dylan has suggested. For sure. All right. Mark Welley, Mark welcomes Helly back to work three days after her attempt. As Casey observes, Helly and Irv hallucinates Black Goo again. Irv discovers a violent painting painted to distance him from Bert.

[00:30:49] Oh, sorry, painting planted to distance him from Bert. Cobel tells Milchick that she's trying something new with Miss Casey. So Cobel says the light of discovery lies truer on a version meadow. Than a beaten path. What did you take from that?

[00:31:15] It's I probably think my initial reaction was to take it like any other like any other rick and stuff to be perfectly honest. OK, sure. You know, I mean, it's just because it's it's a little bit more.

[00:31:28] I mean, it's a little like, OK, you know, if you say so. The idea being, you know, that blank slate, right? I mean, that's kind of so the question I had in some of that was like, well, for who? Right. I mean, you know,

[00:31:44] because that's one of the things I think that I got to this. I'm like, well, wait, who are you? Because we know she's observing Mark. Well, this one, she says she's she's trying to do something new with Miss Casey. So right.

[00:31:57] So I didn't understand my take was like, is she doing something? Is she is this a I'm doing something for Miss Casey to see how she responds or am I doing something with Miss Casey? So yes, it's interesting.

[00:32:12] Number one, because you would think that Miss Casey is there because they're concerned about Helly. Right. In reality, Miss Casey is the rat in this case. She's being observed. Right. Right. And Helly is almost like, we got her back at her desk

[00:32:30] and we'll just deal with what happens next. So Miss Casey thinks that she's in a supervisory role, but in reality, she's the one being observed. And it's kind of the same thing that's happening for Mark. Yeah, Mark's and that's a whole and she even says, right?

[00:32:47] Like the idea that like when they think they're free. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best way to enslave someone is to make them think that they're free or something. Right. So that's interesting that that's cure saying, right? Because I don't mean is that in the handbook? I don't know.

[00:33:05] Or are there levels of the handbook? You know, is there like an eyes only version of the handbook or something like that? So this sort of introduces the the title feature of the episode. And that is this painting titled The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design.

[00:33:31] So there's two different versions of this painting. One at least two. At least two, right? One intended to make O and D look bad. And one intended to make macro data or fine look bad. And it has a number like it. It's like a play in the handbook.

[00:33:57] It's like a play in like the it has a number on the playbook because Milchik comes in and says, or no, Cobel says to Milchik, you ran a two six six on Earth. Right.

[00:34:10] So this is kind of like every now and again, it's not a play we run very often. But every now and again, you got to it's like a Hail Mary or something. Right. And it does suggest that there's a certain amount of independence amongst them

[00:34:25] and when they decide when they're going to do things, right? So like we're getting a little bit a little bit more of a nuanced glimpse as to the dynamic of who's working for who and how much independence they have.

[00:34:39] And now we're getting a better sense of, OK, like one of the things I think we ask like this is all part of an experiment. It's like at this point, it's like, well, to some degree, for sure. Right. I mean, I mean, there's there's clearly some manipulation

[00:34:51] of behavior and environment to try to keep them in check. And we're also seeing, OK, there's a lot more observation going on or at least the ability to observe is there kind of like we suspected. But now we're seeing it firsthand, right? So immediately I think.

[00:35:09] Oh, go ahead and finish. Well, I just say which side start going. Well, well, geez, is anything they do? Like sneak it. Do they know they have this book? Do they know about the map? Do they know like all of those?

[00:35:22] Yeah, immediately, I'm thinking, OK, so you're both aware that. The observers being observed. At what point do you question whether you're being observed? Sure, sure. Right. Because it could be that there's someone there's a level above Milchek and Cobel

[00:35:41] and and they're, you know, they're all part of the experiment, too. Yeah, I mean, it definitely become this is the one of the more complicated episodes in terms of like where it really it it expands and it creates, I think, as a viewer,

[00:35:55] a certain level of paranoia, too, which is like adds to the just sort of the overall vibe of the show. I love the line. Do you know how to make your eyes kind? Oh, my gosh. And then the attempt. It's almost perfect.

[00:36:10] It's like that's that's one of the few things where, like, either you are kind and your eyes tell that story. Or you look like a crazy person because you're trying to do something that you've never tried to do before.

[00:36:27] When he's opening his eyes so wide, it was so unsettling. A little crazy eyed man, which will only happen. It's only that I mean, it's only going to happen if you make someone think about it. It's like right.

[00:36:41] It's like here, I want you to make sure that you breathe normally from this minute to this minute or something like that. Yeah, I've done that and I'm going like, oh my gosh, do I ever breathe? How do I how I live? How have I done this far?

[00:36:56] Just holding my I mean, I got to think about it now. Mark sneaks Helly out of the MDR and shows her PD's map. Helly rejects the gesture and says that she wants to kill herself again. But the thought is cut short as they discover

[00:37:12] a department that houses baby goats. I mean, we talked about this already. If if this show winds up when we don't know, we don't figure out what the goats are for. I'm going to be really disappointed at this point.

[00:37:31] There's this is like my top three mysteries of the show. This and that's it's crazy how that works. Like the show has got you just inundated with like what then what? And then how and then I wonder if there's more and then it's the guy.

[00:37:45] Why is he in a suit? He's it's a poorly fellow in a suit who cares so deeply for these goats. Yeah, like, I mean, there's there's other ways. Like if you look in the room, there's there's like trough type

[00:37:58] situations where they can get their milk, but then there are some goats that need to be hand bottle fed. He's so attached to the goats. And that one goat is very angry, needed his milk. Was that the Helly goat?

[00:38:16] Geez, I mean, look, if you're doing experiments on humans, I guess it would make sense that you've already tried a few experiments on animals first, right? So I could imagine a place like Lumen having a goat room. It's just that this goat room is so off putting.

[00:38:40] And you'd be one thing if they walk around the corner and there's like a barn or something. I don't know. It was it was it was the setting more than anything else. Well, and he's like sitting like there's like a little

[00:38:53] silo and he's not going to be sitting on like a farmhouse model or something. What the heck is happening with this guy? All right, Dylan Dylan traps Bert in a confession room. Bert admits to Irving and Dillon that and Dylan that he has lied

[00:39:10] about the size of O and D due to MDR being seen as untrustworthy. Dylan and Irv interrogate Bert until he tells Irv a joke. After that, they all discover an alternative violent painting. They realize that Lumen is pitting the departments against each other.

[00:39:30] Bert takes the two to O and D to O and D's back room and introduces them to his employees. Dylan seems Dylan is an interesting problem for me because he clearly has no affinity for the handbook, like he does not believe the sacred text.

[00:39:49] And he has no reverence for the tradition. He's he's kind of only in it for the perks, right? He's in it for the finger traps. Did you imagine I'd want to come? Wait, I didn't have any finger traps. My gosh.

[00:40:06] So he's almost got no business being sort of a Lumen acolyte at all. But he believes like without a doubt this story about O and D's coup or whatever. So it's almost like he he's got a different kind of faith

[00:40:24] or his faith exists on a different level or something. Right. How could you how could you question everything except for the worst rumor about O and D? Right, exactly. I think yeah. And I mean maybe that's just how some people are are designed, right?

[00:40:41] Like they because I think this you want to believe in something. Yeah. And his world is pretty small. And if you want to believe in conspiracy theories, conspiracy theories sometimes are like at least they're comforting in some way.

[00:41:00] I think that that's probably a good analogy, the conspiracy theory. It's like so you you don't trust the government, but you trust this theory. Like you don't see the disconnect there. You know, as you believe on some level that well, this untrustworthy government is the cause of this.

[00:41:20] Maybe somewhat outlandish theory, but it would seem logical because of this is where this is where this government situation or this company would lead you. Yeah. But then comparatively, you find out that there's the rumor that the, you know, macro data refinement has pouches. That's amazing. I was.

[00:41:43] This episode was such an amazing balance of like some of the most bonkers laughs and like absurdity with with genuinely upsetting activity. And this is crazy, that level of like, I mean, just the idea that they're all being watched is like already like it becomes very bleak,

[00:42:05] you know, like that sort of that that realization that, yeah, it's kind of what we figured it would be weird if they weren't being watched. But why are they being watched and to what degree? And then and then that makes their absurdity seem even more childlike.

[00:42:18] They become these baby goats. OK, all right. Let me just throw an idea at you. All right. So these paintings that they've seen depict hostility between the two departments. But we know that the paintings are designed to create hostility between the two. All right.

[00:42:36] So there's something in that propaganda that kind of points to the truth in a weird way. Could the joke also point to the truth? Like it's not a you don't have a pouch with larva that eventually eats you and replaces you.

[00:42:56] But you're but not really who you think. But you're not really who you think you are. And the, you know, it's not larva. It's a little chip inside your head. And it's not the larva that replaces you. It's it's a clone of you that replaces you or something.

[00:43:09] So maybe there's something hidden in the joke here that kind of right points to the larger end game of the show. Right. And it could be also that maybe, oh, indeed, maybe that maybe there is violence that occurs. Yeah. Periodic periodically. And maybe it's sometimes it's one department.

[00:43:29] Sometimes it's the other. But you get replaced. Yeah. It's like to what end to what end do you want? Why do you want to create hostility? Because clearly there's a number of outcomes that could happen. And one one of the outcomes is violence, because you're which means

[00:43:44] that this could have been going on for for, you know, who knows how long. Yeah, hundreds of years. And and so when they say, oh, we're going to try something new with Miss Casey, it's like, are these the variables that you do?

[00:43:54] Because it's like, oh, yeah, hell, he kills herself every every five years. I love to I love to think that there's a cycle where every five years they introduce Rickens book into the mix. Right. Yeah. And someone takes it to the bathroom and becomes anti established.

[00:44:17] All right. So spoiler warning, if you're not caught up on the show, go ahead and sign off. Were there any kind of spoilery details that you wanted to discuss as well? Well, yes, I'd like so you didn't see in the the rich pregnant woman and watching her knowing

[00:44:41] what we know when they asked like, how do you do it? And she's like, help. I have help, I suppose. Now, I don't I forget. I forget her deal. What do we what else do we know about her? Oh, she's severed.

[00:44:55] So she doesn't remember when she sees Devon later. So she goes and has her birth experience severed. So it seems like every time she goes to that to have a child, she the severed version of her goes through the pain of child.

[00:45:07] But and that that so as far as we know that she only we don't know if she's severed, like this is where the severance thing becomes a real question, right? Because she gets severed to go and give birth. So to our knowledge, she's only been severed thrice.

[00:45:23] But where does that happen? Where does that elevator? How does this switch flip? And can it flip any so that that's where that kind of opens up that other question? It's like, oh, whoa, OK. Right. You can get severed. This just for Lumen to create people.

[00:45:41] Mm hmm. Right. So it's a there's a whole fascinating thing about that. And so I could watching that like because I OK, maybe she doesn't interact with anybody when she's going through the birth experience, right? So maybe that's why she's a little bit taken aback by by Devon.

[00:45:58] And and I just yeah, so you see that that interesting clue like when she asked so weird, like I help, I suppose. Like she didn't really have a good answer. Like you would think that she'd be a little bit more more,

[00:46:09] you know, potentially like, oh, yeah, your first time. You get this is what you expect. This expect that she's just sort of like this is like that's her only function. That version of her is the function is to give birth. Yeah.

[00:46:24] That's kind of a creepy, even creepier concept, right? Like the idea that severance can just be for like, oh, I always get severed when I go to the dentist. But now that I say that out loud. Not so bad. Yeah, it's torture for the other you, though.

[00:46:41] Right. All they do exists only to get a root canal. That's the worst thing that you could possibly do. Could you imagine? I would at least like maybe a severed version of myself for the DMV. So I think that from here on out, we only ever see Mark.

[00:47:07] Almost as a wrench in the system. I think from this episode on, he's trying to solve the mystery both inside and outside. Right. So both of both parallel versions of his life. He is trying not necessarily to take down Lumen, but to figure out what Lumen's doing.

[00:47:27] And it's almost like PD was a cocoon for that for that mark to kind of become a butterfly because we really don't ever see PD again. Like PD kind of drops out of the narrative at this point. Right, which is interesting, right?

[00:47:44] And that's what the show does in the next few episodes is it feels like a whole other season. And that's one of the things that makes me, you know, anxious for the next season, because I'm like, man, a show like this could have easily done everything they did

[00:48:03] in season one and like two to three seasons. And because it's it's it's wild to me that this end of season one, they break their severance, right? Or at least they think. Right. At least to have to agree that they do. It really feels like that's something

[00:48:22] that would have happened. Season three, right? Like building up to it. So so so that to me says, wait, is this like just the prologue for the story or is this a very limited series? Like, I don't know. Like it's very. So it's fascinating.

[00:48:38] It makes me think that season two is either going to be totally bonkers or it's going to just keep wrapping the mystery with like goate rooms and things like that. And I kind of at this point, I kind of hope it's bonkers.

[00:48:55] All right, Steve, I got a couple reviews for severance on Apple iTunes. Oh. And I thought I would read them to you and use them as a platform to talk about something that's usually not related to the review at all. OK, perfect. As is our custom.

[00:49:18] This one just was published recently. Wow, just wow. Five Star Review, you nailed this podcast, hits out of the park. The attention to detail in this podcast matches the intensity of the level of detail in the show itself. You are a person that is very attentive to detail.

[00:49:39] Are you not, Steve? I like to think so. Would you feel like this is a strength or a weakness or both? Well, probably both. I mean, I like sometimes they get caught up in the details. Uh huh. A little paralysis by analysis type thing. Sure, sure.

[00:49:59] Now has this created any complication in relationships for you? Um, I well, probably the biggest issue is that it may be the details I choose, like certain things that probably should be paying attention to. You're focusing on the wrong thing. Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Wait a second.

[00:50:23] Am I even looking at the right thing? I'm not. That was that was not a review for our podcast. I was looking at our reviews and I could not find that one. OK, all right. It was clearly not our great, great, great review. Thank you for the.

[00:50:55] All right. All right, Steve, we got a few Apple iTunes reviews. I thought I would sure about one of them. I mean, it's it's two more than none. OK, so this is by Waffle Party 79. It is a five star review disclaimer,

[00:51:16] since I haven't actually listened to this podcast yet. I don't know if it's any good. But I appreciate the effort, nonetheless. Just just proud of people who have recording equipment. I really like this one. This is the kind of person who is fundamentally optimistic.

[00:51:43] A real glasses, half full person. So you're welcome, Waffle Party 79. I appreciate the vote of confidence, not really the positive review so much, but. Because you can't review something that you haven't. Apparently, apparently you can't. All right. All right, this is from AJ Kowalski.

[00:52:11] Can't wait to hear what Steve and Anthony have to say about Severance. Great podcasters with a great dynamic. These two always have something great in store. Awesome to hear them in the same podcast as the Lorhounds. So thank you, AJ Kowalski.

[00:52:31] I'm assuming, again, that this person has not heard any of our episodes. Because he says I can't wait to hear what Steve and Anthony have to say about Severance. It's I think we're at our best when we're unexperienced, like when people just don't know.

[00:52:49] Yeah, I think it can only go downhill once they've actually heard what we have to say about anything. Yeah, I mean, I consider, I think our greatest potential is our potential. Who would do amazingly on the futures market? So, yeah, so we got two reviews.

[00:53:11] They're both by and look, I appreciate these immensely. They're both by people who know that we have a podcast. But did not take the time to listen to the podcast. We do appreciate these. We will review.

[00:53:27] We will read your reviews on this podcast if you leave them for us. Yeah, basically, as you've seen, prioritize leaving the review over like listening to an episode. Yeah, it doesn't really matter what you think about it.

[00:53:43] I mean, it actually might work better if you don't listen at all. Is it the Franco to be?